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Hvidponi
24-08-2008, 02:45
The restrictions on this turney is no large target flyers, no more than 9 pd, 8 dd and no more than 3 of the same type of core, 2 of the same type special or 1 of the same type of rare... And no single magical item worth 100 pts or above...
Just above half of the games played is scenarioes, but its random, and there are many diffrent, but common for them all is that a scoring unit is US 5+ and cost 100 pts (at game start)...

Here we go;

Vampire Lord; Level 3 Wizard, Red Fury, Walking Death, Dread Knight, Walach's Bloody Hauberk, 2 x Dispel Scrolls (counts for 2 dd)... Goes with the 8 black knights
Wight King; Mounted on barded steed with a lance, BSB, Flag of the Blood Keep... Goes with the 8 black knights
Vampire; Infinite Hatred, Dread Knight, The Gem of Blood... Goes with the 6 Black Knights
Vampire; Infinite Hatred, Avatar of Death (Great Weapon), Talisman of the Lycni, Wristbands of Black Gold... Runs around behind the Cairn Wraiths...
13 Ghouls (104 pts... so they score)
13 Ghouls
13 Ghouls
5 Dire Wolves with a Doom Wolf
8 Black Knights, Full Command, Royal Standard of Strigos
6 Black Knights, Full Command, Banner of Hellfire
7 Cairn Wraiths...

Any comments are welcome, but remeber to read the restrictions ;)

Stinkfoot
24-08-2008, 07:49
A unit of 10 knights worth as much as yours is is a mistake. All the enemy has to do it divert that unit and they will most likely in the game since the unit is worth something in the order of 40% of your army, yeah?

Your whole battle plan seems to rely upon your 2 knight units and wraiths killing everything, since your ghouls are too small to fight and you don't have any summon ghouls casters (something which it would certainly be wise to take - 15 points for what would effectively be +2 PD). What happens if you face ignore-saves shooting or stubborn enemies? You don't have many wounds on the board, so if your knights start dropping before combat, you lose. If you don't break the enemy on the charge, you lose as the power of your knights drops off dramatically. Really, against any unit/army with any staying power you have but one unit, the wraiths, that have prolonged combat potential. If they get taken out, I don't really see how you can win.

Hvidponi
24-08-2008, 08:35
While that would be true for many other armies, the fact that I have a US 40 fear causing unit with a vampire of uber killiness as well as a static of 4-5 (walking death, banner, BSB, rank, out number) another character with 3 s4 killing blow and the rest of the unit have s4 killing blow, i dont really see the big problem if i cant break on the charge... the shooting part is that one i am a little worried about, but since they got 4+ ward sae versus all kinds of shooting and I got 7 power dice to try an raise them again should be fine... The small unit is not protected though, so I have to be extra careful with that...
Is see absolutly no reason to take summon ghouls, as I have absolutly no intend of trying anything with a unit of ghouls with character... They cant do much, and is only there for scoring and core...
I dont really think you have played against a vampire cavarly if you think I cant win without my wraiths, but thanks for the suggestions anyways...

And I dont really see any other than unbreakable/undead/deamonic units that can withstand this charge... Give me an example...

Stinkfoot
24-08-2008, 09:06
I play vampires myself, and it's silly to say that ghouls can't fight. Ghouls can't fight if you leave them in undersized units with no support, but the same is true of anything...

Unbreakable/Undead/Daemonic will absolutely crush this army, and I think it's safe to say you'll see at least one such army at a tournament. Your unit is only US 20, not 40 (unless there is a typo, you don't seem to have banner of the dead legion). It's not hard to imagine an infantry unit with more than 20US even after a round of combat, so autobreak is hardly a sure thing. If the enemy holds, you'll probably lose on their static CR in future rounds (assuming you don't just get flanked - the enemy should be able to set up a lot of counters since you have so few units). Indeed, if the enemy has any cav of their own they can flee from your charge and flank you, beating your unit handily. As I stated you have very few units so you will almost certainly be outflanked.

As for a unit that can beat you in combat, I should imagine Swordmasters + Prince can do it. They can take the immune to fear banner just to be safe, and they still cost less than you.

Gokamok
24-08-2008, 14:02
I actually think the list looks pretty solid.
Black Knights are well capable of fighting in prolonged combats, especially when they're led by characters, so it's not all too much of an issue if they don't break stuff on the charge.

I'd suggest using the Wraiths to shield the Ghouls from missile fire while keeping the Lycni vampire near in order to have them march. 3 units of 13 ghouls (perhaps make them 12 strong with ghast?) are not in any way useless if they can make it across the board intact, especially since the opponent will either be a) locked in combat with the Black Knights or b) looking at the big holes in his line left behind by the Black Knights:D

I'd suggest upgrading the standards to Banner of the Barrows on the big unit and Banner of the Dead Legion on the smaller unit. BotB is not quite as good on the charge, but it makes all the difference in subsequent rounds of combat. BotDL will allow the smaller unit to autobreak blocks of infantry on the charge, which is imo superior to flaming attacks (unless you know you're facing loads of hydras).

Sarael
24-08-2008, 20:44
I run a ghoul horde, and I agree on the Ghast suggestion. You lose 1w, but gain a potential 12 (avg of 3 or 4) wounds of damage if the ghast can make combat first turn, and survive the whole game. I usually roll his attacks separately so that I know whether I'm getting his points back, and thus far they have yet to let me down. Even just one extra kill through a game is enough usually to get his points back. Plus, he allows you to use dirty champion tricks.

Hvidponi
25-08-2008, 11:19
@ Stinkfoot... Yeah I see... I dont have that banner after all... My mistake... That still do not change my position... I have seen this list win many times... Black Knights are evil, also on round 2 of combat and forwards... Swordmaster do deal quiet alot of damage, but my vampire should be able to somewhere between 5 and 7 of them all alone... I would just have to hope I could raise up one or two kngihts for later...

@ Goramok The big diffrence is the vampire dont have hatred... I could exchange Walking Death for Infinate Hatred thou... But I like the static... And yes... I am expecting to meet alot of nurgle troops amd hydras, but mostly, I fail to see where i can get the 15 points i need...

@ Goramok and Sarael... What is you deal about ghouls? I played with the stupid guys since this book came out... I got 70 of them sitting on a shelf, and I really dont feel like painting 70 skeletons even though I realised they are alot better... Ghouls sucks so much unless they charge shoooting troops, helbardiers, maybe ogres and stuff like that... Good versus a giant too... But they cannot handle themself in combat alone... They can be a roadbump or if there is many of them, a tie up for the rest of the game... Thier holy task is to claim table quaters/objectives/wyrdstones(yes there is a wyrdstone hunt scenario) while costing 100 pts from game start at be at lesat 5 of the at the end (therefor no champion)...

Hvidponi
25-08-2008, 11:38
Done a little mathhammer on the swordmasters; The Unit I most often see is 14 (2x7) but I should put a prince in them lets say 20 7 x 3 with the hero)...
I charge he ASFs;
His prince challengce I accept with my champ which he kill with 1 overkill (if he is a character killer)... Then he got 13 attack... Leads to 6 wounds (5,78)... Saves on 4+ so that is 3 dead knights... I got my lord and my wight king... Lord hits on 3+ with re-rolls and wounds on 2+ with no save... The math wont hekp much because of the Red Fury power, but I should be able to make 3-4 wounds on the first rolls and then between 2 and 4 on the second bunch... Anyways a normal day would give me 6 or 7... lets say 6... The wight king is 4+ with reroll and 2+, so that is 2... The horsies does nothing... He kills for 5, got 2 ranks, a banner; 8... I got 8 kills, a rank, a banner, walking death, a battle standard and a slight outnumber... 13... even if he gets the outnumber thats 9 to 11... I win... But I am down alot... He got a descent chance of holding, but I wont do round 2 cause it all depends on the prince equipement (if he got the re-rolll everything talisman, he is probably weak now, with maybe a great weapon, possible killing blow, and that's it)...

Gokamok
25-08-2008, 13:34
@ Gokamok The big diffrence is the vampire dont have hatred... I could exchange Walking Death for Infinate Hatred thou... But I like the static... And yes... I am expecting to meet alot of nurgle troops amd hydras, but mostly, I fail to see where i can get the 15 points i need...

@ Gokamok and Sarael... What is you deal about ghouls? I played with the stupid guys since this book came out... I got 70 of them sitting on a shelf, and I really dont feel like painting 70 skeletons even though I realised they are alot better... Ghouls sucks so much unless they charge shoooting troops, helbardiers, maybe ogres and stuff like that... Good versus a giant too... But they cannot handle themself in combat alone... They can be a roadbump or if there is many of them, a tie up for the rest of the game... Thier holy task is to claim table quaters/objectives/wyrdstones(yes there is a wyrdstone hunt scenario) while costing 100 pts from game start at be at lesat 5 of the at the end (therefor no champion)...

First, regarding the magic standards:
If you want to make the switch I suggested, I'd recommend removing Gem of Blood to fund the upgrade. I guess you don't want the 6 BK unit to attack heavy hitting units anyway, so your Vampire will likely survive without it.
I think that going for Banner of the Barrows will give you more CR in subsequent rounds of combat than walking death, so taking infinite hatred and BotB will IMO make for a stronger unit. Giving your main unit more punch after the charge seems crucial to me.

Regarding the Ghouls:
My idea behind somehow making the Ghouls play a part in this list is rather simply that if you don't use them for anything except capturing table quarters/objectives, then you're effectively playing 1700vs2000 points.
IF your cavalry/wraiths get stuck in combats lasting several turns, getting a flank charge off with 12/13 ghouls could likely swing such combats in your favor (+1 flank attack, +1 rank, maybe +1 outnumber and a few wounds).
If the enemy starts shooting your ghouls to bits, just hide them inside a wood and enjoy the fact that he didn't shoot at your cavalry that turn.

What is the idea with the Lycni Vampire? I would guess that he's used as a chariot/wizard hunter and to make sure the wraiths can march? You could consider giving him Flying Horror instead of infinite hatred and the talisman to ensure that he will be less likely to end up in a bad position if his target flees when he charge. Also, depending on what kind of armies you expect to face, Armour of Night might be a better choice than Wristbands.

GET THOSE LAZY GHOULS WORKING!:D

Hvidponi
25-08-2008, 14:47
Since the objectives counts for up to HALF the total points from each battle (0-10 points from the scenario, 0-10 points from VP) the ghouls will have a very important role... And the flank charging also give him cheap wounds for CR... Anyways... I am happy about my ghouls the way they are, and I dont belive that I can use them for anything combat oriented, without changing the army focus....

I dont see alot of survival potential in a model with t4 2+ save 2 wounds... And with the High Elves and thier ASF, and the dark elves and thier assassin and ASF banner and potetial challegences versus other character... The Gem of Blood is definatly not getting dropped... However I could drop a Wraith... I think I would rather have the double unit strength than the BotB thou... Outnumbering fear causing is awesome...

The lycni vampire makes the wraiths march, hunts warmachine, lonely wizard, chariots and so forth, and Wristbands are alot better versus warmachine and autohits and magic missile... The armour is good versus normal shooting troops, but as there are no restrictions on warmachines and there seems to be alot of empire and some dwarfs signed up, I am going with the warmachine protection... I have seen to many times of bad luck with only 3 attacks that hits on 3+, so I need the hatred... Thats 3 on 3+ with reroll and then 2+ with -4 on the save... should take care that pesky master engineer... I just have to think about where I end up if I fail my charge (as with any other unit I ever charge with) so I think that'll be ok...

AND THE GHOULS ARE WORKING... THEY ARE JUST NOT FIGHTING!!!!

Btw I am playtesting the army again today, this time versus warriors of chaos, so Ill let you know how my knights will do against 20 chosen slaneesh warriors with an exalted champion... Anyways I think that's what he is up to...