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Kronos
24-08-2008, 17:03
Okay just really out of curiosity, I'm not a sm player or collector,however i felt a bit inspired today to make a truscale marine (the way marines are supposed to be imo). Anyway while admiring my little creation i was wondering what would be the actual stats o a space marine according to fluff, you know the humanoid monsters which tower over the battlefield in power armour ....etc.



So in your opinion what would the actual stats of a space marine be, and what would be the point cost of each one according to sm fluff ?

TheRoadWarrior
24-08-2008, 17:12
i was hoping you would say the IG....

Badger[Fr]
24-08-2008, 17:12
The current stats are fine: Space Marines are meant to be superior to standard humans in every aspect... And they are! The Bolter is not strong enough, though, as Warhammer 40k's current ruleset fails to represent automatic weapons' high rate of fire, since sustained fire dices no longer exist.

Kronos
24-08-2008, 17:28
I'm sorry i think i missed the point here, i don't have any problem with current sm stats just what would they be IF they were exactly like the fluff. You know basicly human-like-tanks. Or are they human-like-tanks alreayd (only have the blood angel codex as referance)

Badger[Fr]
24-08-2008, 17:34
Or are they human-like-tanks alreayd (only have the blood angel codex as referance)
They already are! Space Marines are human-like tanks, and only sustained fire (a single, rapid-firing IG squad kills, on average, a single Space Marine, which means fluffwise, it actually takes tens if not a hundred of Lasgun shots to wound him), ordnance, or AT weapons are strong enough to take them down.

Kronos
24-08-2008, 17:38
;2891676']They already are! Space Marines are so tough that they can survive anything except AT weapons. They are human-like tanks, and only sustained fire (a single, rapid-firing IG squad kills, on average, a single Space Marine), ordnance, or AT weapons are strong enough to take them down.



Oh, guess i it was a bit pointless starting this then :o

Minister
24-08-2008, 17:42
The main thought is that 40K stats have a squashed scale. Marines are stronger than guardsmen, but are not stronger than Tyranid Warriors, which leaves them stuck as S 4, and so-on.

CHOOBER SNIPES
24-08-2008, 18:01
The problem really comes down to the D6 not being flexible enough. For example, lasgun shots would not be able to wound terminators realistically unless hitting a very,very precise spot. This is not equal to a 1/6 chance, but more of a 1/12 or less. ALSO, to have things be according to the fluff, they would screw over some players. Because SM would be much tougher compared to guardsmen, theyd have to make guardsmen even more numerous, which means no guard players cause their all now broke. compared to the present guardsman statline (not other things lik tyranids and all them) a space marine i could see as:
WS5 BS5 (or BS4 with more shots) S5 T5 I5-6 W2 A3 LD10 3+ maybe 2+. Of course, other things would be balanced accordingly (ie guardsmen outnumber them by a lot more than they do now).

heretics bane
24-08-2008, 18:24
;2891676']They already are! Space Marines are human-like tanks, and only sustained fire (a single, rapid-firing IG squad kills, on average, a single Space Marine, which means fluffwise, it actually takes tens if not a hundred of Lasgun shots to wound him), ordnance, or AT weapons are strong enough to take them down.

Heres a tip: Fluff and rules usualy never go hand in hand.

Ive read stories where a marine has been killed with a single lass round and then theirs guardys who have taken dreadnoughts down with combat knives and a trusty hand geranade. Although marines sound good they really arent when you compare them to things they fight. and thats just an estimation my boys once took a terminator sqaud out:eyebrows:

Gropius
24-08-2008, 18:28
Is the Inquisitor rulebook downloadable from the GW site? If yes, you should take a look. It will give you a much more distinctive version of Space Marines.

Idaan
24-08-2008, 18:50
Is the Inquisitor rulebook downloadable from the GW site? If yes, you should take a look. It will give you a much more distinctive version of Space Marines.So distinctive that Marines punching with a fist inflict more damage than a plasma gun and that they are more effective throwing their bolters rather than firing them. Yeah.



So in your opinion what would the actual stats of a space marine be, and what would be the point cost of each one according to sm fluff ?According to SM fluff:
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
win win win win win win win win win

According to everyone else's fluff:
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
loseloseloseloseloseloseloseloselose

It's really that easy. In the fluff of army (a), the winning side of any given conflict, duel, fistfight, spacefight, drinking contest, beauty queen pageant is army (a). Thus, it cannot be perceived as an objective source of information about that army, but rather as a method of showing how cool and uber this army is. This is doubly so in most BL novels because this is coupled with bad writing and all of b-class movie tropes about main characters, such as them having 'character shield' protecting them from all damage, enemies that can't even hit them due to 'imperial stormtrooper syndrome' and are slaughtered in their hundreds because of the 'ninja syndrome'. Seriously, have you seen any Marines losing any battle in the fluff or any main Marine character in BL fiction not successing in what he's doing? Probably not. But the same can be said about any other faction in their respective fluff or characters from that faction in BL writing (which can be harder to find, because all their novels are about Marines). For example, the only book showing Imperium ultimately losing is the book with an Iron Warrior as a protagonist.

And as there are 5 Marine codices showing Marines as the uber and 7 non-Marine codices showing Marines as the unter, it evens out in the end.

Demanding a representation of narrative tropes in game mechanics is pretty pointless. Such a thing has been done in some RPGs like GURPS or Amber RPG but in these the players are 'main characters' and fight on the same side. Now how would you decide which faction is the main character and should therefore win in a competitive wargame?

DapperAnarchist
24-08-2008, 19:05
In the most recent Dark Magenta, Eoin Whelan has a much more... nuanced take on the rules for Space Marines in Inquisitor. check it out.

Marine badassery, like everything in 40K, is EXTREMELY context dependent. Which is the short way of saying what Idaan said better.

azhagmorglum
24-08-2008, 19:58
well after reading some books from black library involving marines (HH mainly) I sometimes find myself a bit disappointed when marines get killed with a single bolter shot or a blade hit. I feel like it's too quick, but then again battles can't last forever ^^

baphomael
24-08-2008, 20:29
I feel, for rules to more accurately reflect a marine (and other things, really) then d6 isnt really adequate - D10 might help here, but that would alter the game somewhat.

However, largely marines are fine as-is in relation to the rules - most of the stuff they face is equal, or harder, than a marine. The problem is when you compare them to guardsmen, guardians etc etc

Firaxin
24-08-2008, 20:33
And as there are 5 Marine codices showing Marines as the uber and 7 non-Marine codices showing Marines as the unter, it evens out in the end.

More like 5 marine codices showing Marines as the uber and 7 non-Marine codices showing Guardsmen as the unter. :cries:

Drogmir
24-08-2008, 21:58
There were Movie Marine rules that were put out by White Dwarf, but no one is allowed to distribute them online.

PondaNagura
24-08-2008, 22:15
darn beat me to it. yeah movie marines are the ultimate ideal of what they'd be. was that WD300?

Kronos
24-08-2008, 22:50
There were Movie Marine rules that were put out by White Dwarf, but no one is allowed to distribute them online.

That was it!

Now i remember (though don't have that wd :() hence why i made i true scale marine i remember a thread saying something about marines dropping into battle and taking on both sides (or at least something like that).


Quite liked the idea so decided to make a marine, now all i need is the rules :angel:


And relating to what you said, why is it wrong to give out rules in wd, even if the wd is no longer in print ? (btw i'm not questioning this because i demand the rules it just out of curiosity :))



Also thanks for the responses guys, and patience with my lack og knowledge on sm fluff and rules:o

Leman Russ
24-08-2008, 23:31
A company (that is 100) maries should be able to decimate an entire IG world before they can even respond.

Imagine Mobile man sized tanks with Rocket propeled Chainsaws

Marneus Calgar
24-08-2008, 23:45
A company (that is 100) maries should be able to decimate an entire IG world before they can even respond.

Imagine Mobile man sized tanks with Rocket propeled Chainsaws

One hundred infantry warriors will have a tough time taking over an entire world. There is simply too much ground to cover for one hundred, or even a thousand soldiers. ;)

TheBlueGrassGamer
25-08-2008, 03:11
Howdy,


One hundred infantry warriors will have a tough time taking over an entire world. There is simply too much ground to cover for one hundred, or even a thousand soldiers. ;)

You might want to check out this thread (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117623). Although it started out as a discussion about whether or not there were enough Space Marines in the 40K 'verse, it soon turned into a discussion about whether or not a hundred Space Marines could, in fact, take a world.

The thread also has my take on how a full battle company of Space Marines would go about conquering a world. (http://warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2179492&postcount=124) The only leeway that I allowed myself was the world in question had only recently turned from the Emperor's guidance.

Also, to help clarify things:There is a difference between conquering and holding a world. Space Marines are only tasked with conquering worlds.

The task of holding a world recently returned to the Emperor's guidance falls to the Imperial Guard garrison, the Adeptus Aribites who enforce the laws of the High Lords of Terra, and the missionaries sent by the Elessiarchy to ensure the populace does not stray from the Imperial Creed.

Thanks,
Bluegrass

Marneus Calgar
25-08-2008, 03:51
I read some of the thread on how many Space Marines are in the 40k universe, but this did little to explain how they could effectively take and hold a planet.

I also read your post on how you envision Space Marine conquering a planet. From what I gathered, it seems that this posts assumes that the opposition is not a formidable force. Space Marines are not known for their orbital superiority, without this they would have little to no chance of even getting a glimpse of the planet which they have their sights on. A fleet of the Imperium would not be a push over for a Space Marine chapter. It is the combination of the Imperial Guard/Navy and the Space Marines which makes the Imperium so successful, though the Imperial Guard/Navy would fair much better if they did not have Space Marines rather than Space Marines not having the Imperial Guard/Navy.

TheBlueGrassGamer
25-08-2008, 04:49
Howdy,


I read some of the thread on how many Space Marines are in the 40k universe, but this did little to explain how they could effectively take and hold a planet.

To clarify: Space Marines are used to conqure planets. They do not hold planets. The job of holding a planet falls to the Adeptus Aribites,the Imperial Guard, and the Elessiarchy.

... wow, deja vu.


I also read your post on how you envision Space Marine conquering a planet. From what I gathered, it seems that this posts assumes that the opposition is not a formidable force.

A PDF army can be a formidable force. Until the next biggest and baddest force - usually a hostile one - comes along. Eight-foot tall, genetically-enhanced warriors count as "the biggest and baddest" of them all.


Space Marines are not known for their orbital superiority, without this they would have little to no chance of even getting a glimpse of the planet which they have their sights on. A fleet of the Imperium would not be a push over for a Space Marine chapter.

Actually, Space Marines have the necessary means to archive a degree of orbital superiority.

In the 3rd Edition SM codex, there was there was a listing of chapter assets. Which included such things as Battle Barges, Strike Cruisers, and escort craft. This was latter expanded into a complete fleet list for Battlefleet Gothic in the Battlefleet Gothic: Armada supplement.

And lets not forget that Space Marine armies in 40K have access to drop pods. Drop pods which are often deployed from orbit, as are teleporting terminator squads. I doubt either method of insertion could be used effectively if Space Marines didn't have orbital superiority.

Also, keep in mind. You are not going to encounter a full battlefleet (i.e - Battlefleet Gothic) hovering around a planet. What you are going to encounter are local revenue cutters, defense monitors, and a few decommissioned Imperial Navy escorts. You might even encounter a few space stations. And if the world is important enough? You might encounter a Ramiles class starfort.


It is the combination of the Imperial Guard/Navy and the Space Marines which makes the Imperium so successful, though the Imperial Guard/Navy would fair much better if they did not have Space Marines rather than Space Marines not having the Imperial Guard/Navy.

I'll agree with you up to a point. While there is little doubt that the Imperium is strengthen when all of it's forces act in unison. However, the Imperial Guard/the Imperial Navy and the Space Marines also have different ways of operating.

The Space Marines act as the Imperium's scalpel. Space Marines are known for precision strikes, lighting raids, and other acts of mobile warfare. While the Space Marines maintain fleet assets, these assets are often used to slice through the ring a world's orbital defense and get at the creamy center.

The Imperial Guard/the Imperial Navy act as the Imperium's hammer. The Guard is meant to routinely engage in wars last years, decades, and longer. The Imperial Navy exist to bludgeon renegade and xenos fleets into submission.

Thanks,
Bluegrass

Marneus Calgar
25-08-2008, 05:11
Aye, that should have said, take and conquer a planet, instead of hold.


It is also true that you will not encounter an Imperial battlefleet(since that would lead to a chapters demise), at first, depending on the status of the planet. Yet if the Space Marines do penetrate the orbital defenses(assuming they did not take significant losses, such as a loss of a single ship) and do attack a planet single handedly, they have a long way to defeat the defending force. Even with the Space Marines full chapter it would take months/years for those troops to cover the span of an entire planet. Once they deploy their drop pods, teleport their terminators, and send away their Thunderhawks that is when they are the most vulnerable. Once reinforcements of nearby battle cruisers arrive, the Space Marines ships would be heavily outnumbered and outgunned. With the loss of their ships(since attempting to escape would be to condemn all of their brethren and chapter to death), all of the Space Marines fighting on the planet would be shortly overwhelmed.

TheBlueGrassGamer
25-08-2008, 06:04
Howdy,


Aye, that should have said, take and conquer a planet, instead of hold.

I thought I did a good job of outlining how the Space Marines would conquering a planet.

1.) Neutralize the orbital defenses. Out of all the orbital assets a planet possesses, I'd say that only a Ramiles class starfort would present any significant problem to a Company of space marines. (Due to the fact that, in the BFG rules, the only fleet capable of boarding a Ramiles starfort are the orcks.)

2.) Neutralize ground-based defense. Here, the Space Marine fleet would focus on ground-based weaponry that can reach low orbit (i.e. - macro-cannons, defense lasers, and surface-to-orbit missile sites).

3.) Commence planetary bombardment. After the SM ships have entered low orbit, the broadside guns would began pounding various command and control points, armories, vehicle and mustering yards, and other defensible positions.

4.) Begin the planetary assault. This is where the Space marines would begin launching drop pods, teleportation attacks, and sending Thunderhawk gunships and transports to the planet's surface. Targets would've already been identified for the SM, either through prior intelligence gathering (SM scouts) or through the use of long-range scanners.

Once on the planet's surface, I don't imagine there'd be enough of a fighting force left. Vehicles would already be smashed, barracks would've become creators in the ground, and most of the C&C structure would've been destroyed by the orbital bombardment that the Space Marines unleashed upon the planet.

Once planetside, the SMs most likely would split up in to combat squads. This would effectively double the amount of units the Space Marines would have one hand, allowing the SMs to deploy more effectively. Armor, such as Predators and Whirlwinds, would be deployed as needed by the Thunderhawk landers.



It is also true that you will not encounter an Imperial battlefleet(since that would lead to a chapters demise), at first, depending on the status of the planet.

As I said in the earlier post, the planet has entered into open rebellion against the God-Emperor of Man. If an Imperial battlefleet suddenly drops out of the warp during a Space Marine assault on a heretical/disloyal planet?

It probably isn't there to help the planet that the SMs are assaulting. Most likely, the Imperial battlefleet has dropped out of the warp because it's acting as convey protection for the Imperial Guard troop ships that are following close behind.

Now, if an Imperial battlefleet drops out of the warp during a traitor SM assault on an Imperial planet? Yeah, I can see the Imperial battlefleet intervening.


Yet if the Space Marines do penetrate the orbital defenses(assuming they did not take significant losses, such as a loss of a single ship) and do attack a planet single handedly, they have a long way to defeat the defending force.

Precision bombardments go a long way to thinning the amount of opposition that the Space Marines are going to encounter.


Even with the Space Marines full chapter it would take months/years for those troops to cover the span of an entire planet.

How so? The Space Marines already have access to means of rapid redeployment (i.e - drop pods and Thunderhawk gunships/transporters).


Once they deploy their drop pods, teleport their terminators, and send away their Thunderhawks that is when they are the most vulnerable.

Once again, how so? Space Marine vessels are crewed by chapter serfs and servitors. With unquestioned dominance of the area around the planet, there isn't likely to be any opposition in orbit.


Once reinforcements of nearby battle cruisers arrive, the Space Marines ships would be heavily outnumbered and outgunned. With the loss of their ships(since attempting to escape would be to condemn all of their brethren and chapter to death), all of the Space Marines fighting on the planet would be shortly overwhelmed.

Considering Space Marines generally don't go around attacking planets to the loyal to the Imperium of Man, I think it's safe to ask: What reinforcements?

If a Space Marine force has been sent out to conqure world, it's usually a punitive expedition. Such expeditions are launched because the world has rebelled against the fair and just rule of the Adepts of Terra.

If reinforcements arrive and try to break through the Space Marine siege lines, it's most likely going to be done by a heretical/traitor fleet. Or by the enemy opposition on the ground summoning demonic forces.

I can only think of one instance where Space Marines (mistakenly) invaded a planet loyal to the Imperium. The planet had erupted into open rebellion against the planetary government. When the Space Marines arrived, they began laying waste to the insurgent forces. One of the Brother-Liberians accompanying the Space Marines realized that something 'felt wrong.' Eventually, the Space Marines learned that the planetary government had been corrupted by heretical forces and that the rebellion was being staged to over-throw the traitorous governor.

Thanks,
Bluegrass

Idaan
25-08-2008, 09:54
An Ork boy is desribed (by the Imperial officials, so it's not orky propaganda) as being able to tear a Marine apart with his bare hands. Does it mean that Ork boyz should be S5 or 6?

heretics bane
25-08-2008, 10:52
An Ork boy is desribed (by the Imperial officials, so it's not orky propaganda) as being able to tear a Marine apart with his bare hands. Does it mean that Ork boyz should be S5 or 6?

Once again fluff and rules are usualy never the same!:eyebrows: Yes in the fluff orks are incredible tough but on table top there not so tough along with marines.

Same with marines and pretty much every race in the entire game.fluff>rules

Idaan
25-08-2008, 15:09
Exactly my point.