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Shamfrit
24-08-2008, 20:48
Da Boss's Hut!

44264

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Following on from the various threads on Warseer here you have it: the Greenskin Tactica. Our mission? To test, glean and fabricate every sneaky tactic available to us, every unit strategy, underhand tactics and combination in existence, to use them to bring Greenskins back from the bottom, and let the next Waaagh!! commence!


A few notes: please let's clutter this up with the endless hammer whining we've had in the other threads, let's keep this to the point, and with the aim of going directly against the power armies of the day, which are currently High Elves, Daemons and Vampire Counts, which we universally struggle against.

So, let the plotting begin! (Will post own ideas once they're typed up.)

jpf1982
24-08-2008, 21:28
I tried to end the whiny thread once before by doing this; and I'll happily contribute to this and hope perhaps you'll have better luck!

We'll start with the most obvious combo available.

Suicide goblin. Let's analyze him piece by piece.

Goblin Big Boss with light armor, shield and Wollupa's One Hit Wunda!

Mount choices:
Wolf - Pro is you can stick him in a unit and protect him until given your opportunity to charge out and do what he does best; surprise and smash. Also gaining a +1 armor save for being mounted and an 18" charge range.

Wolf Chariot - My personal favorite choice. This gives you +2 armor save instead of just a plus 1 from a mount and; now not only does he have his own 3 S10 attacks, but he's got D6+1 S5 impact hits, 2 WS3 S3 attacks from the wolves and 2 WS2 S4 attacks from the spear wielding goblins with him. Truly a killer. Plus his 2 crewman have short bows so now he has something to do while he sets up into position.

Other Gear:
Tricksy Trinket - If your fighting Demons or Brettonia with their prayer ward save this guy on a chariot can negate some serious ward and probably kill everybody he's touching when he charges.

Brimstone Bauble - This is something so that after the goblin dies he'll take some people with him. Upon death any unit in base contact suffers D6 S6 hits. Great for if you charge a monstrous creature that will probably survive the one hit wunda and then kill you back.

Guzzla's Battle Brew - My personal favorite. Roll a D6 at the beginning of the battle and on a 1-2 you are stupid; 3-4 you gain frenzy; 5-6 you gain hatred and frenzy. Stupid will make this guy a waste, but frenzy and hatred will make this guy invaluable. Again on a chariot if he gets frenzy he now has 4 attacks and since his mount (the chariot) gets any psychological effects of its rider passed to it the chariot crew now gain frenzy as well so now you've got 4 attacks from the crew and 4 attacks from the wolves. If you manage to get the result with frenzy and hatred all those are also re-rollable in the 1st round of combat. A truly frightening power hitter.

Used effectively he is an assassin in every sense. You need to be very careful about where you set him up and what you go after. If on a wolf hide him in a unit; if in a chariot stick him between two of your big block units and an inch or two back to keep him out of line of site a little more. This is also especially important if you end up with frenzy.

My suggestion is aim for:
Large Targets - Giants, Hydras, Dragons, Stegadons
Single Characters - Mounted or Unmounted
Flying Units or Skirmished Units or Both - Pegasus Knights, Warhawk Riders, Wardancers
War Machines - Cannons, Bolt Throwers, etc...
Small Elite Units - Knights, other Cavalry

Hope someone finds this useful. Sorry if there are misspellings in here I have baby in my lap.

Shamfrit
25-08-2008, 00:13
Da Boss’s Best Tricks: Part One

Core: Da Long An’ Forguttin

Orc Arrer Boyz: Seemingly abandoned in favour of their more armoured cousins, Orc Arrer Boyz have two viable options to put them to use. Firstly, as missile support, which the Greenskin army desperately needs outside of it’s Warmachines, and secondly, as a supporting unit. Looking at the shooting aspect, BS3 and S3 missiles is relatively standard, but where they succeed that High Elf Archers and Dark Elf Crossbowmen fail is through having T4. The main option is to form lines with them, firing as you advance, and then reforming before you close quarters and supporting your main units in the charge. A unit of ten is a steal at 60 points, half of their Elven cousins cost, with Str 4 attacks to boot. For your consideration: Da Side Swipe! Form detachments of 10 Arrer Boyz to move alongside, set back 1-2”, your Night Goblin/Goblin Units. Use them for supporting fire, which will obviously need 5+’s for the first few turns, then let your goblins (animosity counting) take or make the charge, and swing in the Arrer Boyz to the flanks. 10 T4 Orcs with STR 4 attacks will surely maintain rank negation and contribute considerably to combat resolution. If you’re facing heavy ranged based armies, such as Dark Elves or gun lines, consider 15, with musician (LD 8 to rally,) being an absolute steal for 95 points!

Goblins/Night Goblins: The most annoying thing about the Goblin / Night Goblin debate is the apparent infallibility of Fanatics. With the proliferation of heavily armoured units, and wards and regen saves becoming readily more available, fanatics are losing their momentum fast. Night Goblins might have Nets available to them, which is a considerably advantage and one which is well priced (or so I believe) Goblins come with +1 LD and +1 AS, which makes up for the Nets loss on a more constant even. If you’re running the above Side Swipe tactic, a block of 25 Goblins, as apposed to Night Goblins will survive longer, make it to combat more often (with a better Fear Test/Terror test roll) and still retain saves against STR5 infantry/cavalry. For your consideration: Da Snotling Shuffle. Based entirely on the discussion regarding snotlings in the other thread, try this. Two snotling bases, set 3” in front, and with only one base overlapping the front of your Goblin unit, take a charge. If the goblin unit is angled 45% (with an appropriate unit guarding it) any overrun should allow the charging unit a nice, stupid swerve. In your turn, slam something into both flanks (the unit which is guarding the exposed flank, and something in reserve.)

Goblin Wolf Riders: An incredibly effective multi-role unit which is oft overlooked in favour of Savage Orc Boyz. Goblin Wolf Riders, although lacking in effectiveness compared to Dark Riders, have two viable options available, or ‘modes’ if you will. The first, is to operate in small units perform MSU harassment of war machines, flanks, and quick marching threats. The second, is to come full frontal with larger shield armed blocks acting as cheap en masse Medium Cavalry. Cavalry that can easily average CR 3-4 before attacks. A unit of 10 will not maintain it’s rank bonus long enough against even light shooting, so in this instance, 15 is essential, allowing you a good +3 CR. Do not fear putting Standards on Cavalry such as this, and think back, how many times have fast cavalry ever been caught? Most of the time they’re shot/panicked or obliterated by magic. With CR3 you’ll be able to deal with a lot more than a unit of 5, and one block with a standard should easily make back it’s points if you do lose the standard. For your consideration: Da ‘Ost of Da Goblin Khan! Block of 15 Wolf Riders, with spears, banner, musician, boss. Goblin Boss on wolf with the standard suicidal/character killer equipment, two wolf chariots in support either side of your unit. Take the unit straight into your opponent’s front line. But on the charge, swerve out your chariots into your target unit’s flanking support, to prevent any counter charges (unless they’re extremely armoured…) and then take the Goblin Host into the central unit. Your chariots will more than likely be obliterated next turn. But push through the right part, you’ve spent tuppence on a spearhead.

Jelle
25-08-2008, 00:42
I'd love to use a unit of 10 arrer boyz because they're so insanely cheap and I have the models but i think it's too dangerous because they are easy to panic and they can cause panic in other important orc boyz units

they're also difficult to use because to take up so much precious deployment zone space.. in my opinion one or more of your units getting stuck and unable to actively participate in the game is the easiest way to lose a game

Dranthar
25-08-2008, 03:09
Here's my bit;

Night Goblin Archers
At first glance these guys are pretty poor - BS3 with short bows gives them neither the range nor the reliability to threaten most enemy units. Added to that is the fact that the minimum size unit is 20, and lining up a NG regiment 10-wide or even 20-wide is not feasible in a horde army, where space in the deployment zone is often at a premium.

HOWEVER, NG Archers are not necessarilly useless. For one they are quite decent, for their points, at keeping fast cavalry at bay. The short bows can kill the odd model if lucky and when arranged in a 5x4 formation with musician, a charging unit of fast cavalry will need to make 5 kills to win combat. Throw in a single fanatic (no more - too many points otherwise) and it makes an exellent deterent.

Furthermore, when shooting at large targets and units on hills, the ENTIRE UNIT can shoot. BS3/S3 or not, I've found that 20 shots is nothing to laugh at and even 1-2 wounds on a dragon is a few less wounds that your magic/warmachines etc need to cause. This is the main reason I keep a block of NG archers handy as opposed to, for instance, more snotlings.

Finally, NG archers are a decent choice for hiding a shaman. They're a unit that you'll rarely want in combat, so as long as you're not planning on sacrificing those archers for a flank charge it should keep a shaman relatively safe.

So how do I equip my NG archers?
21 NGs with short bows, musician and 1 fanatic - 92

The extra NG minimises the risk of panic from shooting and the single fanatic keeps them a threat against a wide variety of opponents. I generally feel only one unit is needed for my list.

So basically, NG archers are useful in the following roles.;
A. Shooting large targets/units on hills
B. Carrying a fanatic for cheap
C. Guarding a flank from fast cavalry
D. Baiting enemy units
E. Hiding a shaman

Fredmans
25-08-2008, 14:12
Here's my bit: The lone troll

An incredibly versatile unit. It has an extremely good manouverability, does not cause panic (US 3), and is fear-causing. Set-up to the side of your warboss, it can:

block flank charges (through angling, and the enemy still has to take a Ld test)

add CR (a lone troll is easy to combine charges with. I tend to think of them as small chariots)

It does not autobreak.

The last point is extremely valuable against VC and Demons. Take the break test with the troll. Even if the rest of the battle line auto-flees, the troll can stay in combat, saving your other units.

The sad part is... stupidity. Just be sure not to ever let it blunder into your warboss's unit. On the other side, stupidity with Ld9 is equivalent to Animosity (or slightly better :D )

A lone troll is easy to keep within the Ld bubble, does not take up too much space in your battle line, yet cheap enough to abandon with ease if the situation should arise.

If everything goes well, you can send off the lone troll for a warmachine in the end turns.

I used to take two single trolls, but I have reduced it to one in favour of a doom diver to try that out. River trolls are even better, but I always have to find points somewhere and usually settle for common trolls.

/Fredmans

Urgat
25-08-2008, 15:19
Well, there's the lone troll already, so here you have the Troll Block.
Fairly simple really, the idea is to take 4 (or 5 if your opponent likes wide units) trolls, and send them into the enemy to deal damage.

But there's a couple subtilities.
Sort of.

Kind of trolls:
Common trolls are for the cheap people, if you want a tough unit of trolls, and are willing to pay the points for 4 of them, you might as well make them special to make them realy worth their points. The kind you wish to take really depends on the army you're facing:

Shooting heavy army:
Stone trolls: I don't use them much, because I don't face much shooting. Here, the scaly save can help a bit, but that's 20 points for a 5+ save (so, against most shooting, in effect, it's just 6+, which is... well, a 6+ save, you know how to qualify it)

River trolls: there's zero benefit with them, it's 20 points/model wasted if they're being shot.

In any case, Trolls hate shooting.

Magic:

Well, there's the MR2 deal of the stone trolls. If you know your opponent likes the fire lore, has bound fire spells and so on, the stone trolls might be a good choice. Fire hurts the trolls, but if it's likely that spells won't get through, the trolls won't be the target. Don't think you've watsed that MR because you didn't get to use it: it was useful because the trolls were not targeted, that's all.
It's also good versus spells that affect many units (casket of souls bound spell).

Melee:
Now that's a totally different matter altogether.
Let me be clear here: river trolls are superior to stone trolls in melee; why?

You won't send your trolls against everything. There's units you will avoid like the plague: the large rank and file units, the cheap kind with weak troops. These guys are the ones who have all these S3 attacks, the ones against which that scaly skin of your stone trolls could help. But, scaly skin or not, unless your luck is overwhelming and the rolls of the RnF unit are appaling, you're gonna lose anyway, because of static CR (5 versus 0, most of the time). Trolls do hurt, but first, they need to hit, and you only got WS3 for you. Even if you can regen half the wounds you might take, that static CR is there, it won't go just like that, even if you wound, you will take wound backs, one way or another.

The prime target for trolls is elite units. Heavy cavalry, ogres, giants, chaos warriors, that kind of guys. The expensive stuff that usually has heavy armour, high strenght but, mainly, low static CR. Static CR is what kills trolls, it's worse than fire if you ask me. So these guys aften have S4 or 5 (chaos knights are a usual main dish for my trolls). And so that scaly skin of the stone trolls becomes useless. 20 useless points per mini for a unit that is meant to go in melee against things that can remove the benefits of this upgrade by virtue of having the profile to do so. Hop, stone troll is out.
On the other hand, the -1 to hit ohn the river troll... mmh, tasty! Normal guys now hit your trolls on a 5+, pesky humans. And these elven lords or greater daemons, they hit on 4+, against a WS3 unit. It always pays off in melee, always. So then, that elite of doom botches half of its attacks, and you should regenerate half of what remains. And they've hardly got any CR. They might have outnumber (but you're going to take care of that), a rank, banner. If it's knights, you're going to vomit, of course (well, your trolls are, at least). Autohit, S5, no saves. You should have outnumber, now :p. Remember trolls coz fear, so if you outnumber... Against elite infantry, unless it's a ridiculously small unit, you'll have to make some quick estimations before deciding which attack is best.

Now, tactics wise. Well, it's simple, you target some elite thing, and go straight for it (with some character lending his Ld of course, nearby general or babysitting hero). Ok, it's always good to charge, but I find myself lettinng my river trolls being charged more often than not, lately, since that battle when I've discovered they could perfectly handle chosen knight charges.
So instead of rushing forward and trying to get a charge early, I put my trolls in the way, but at an angle, like I would do with my wolves, but instead of fleeing, I hold, of course. And the idea is not for the knights or whatever to pursuie out of action, but for my trolls to win and pursue right into the action.

This is a primitive tactic, it is simple-minded, it doesn't require brilliant mind processing or trying to guess how the battlefield is going to look like in three turns. It's ugly, it's inelegant. But who cares? It works, and it's TROLL :p

Mozzamanx
25-08-2008, 15:28
For the ultimate in infantry support, da Black Orc Brawla!

Armed to da Teef, Kickin' Boots and 'Eavy Armour. A Warboss like this is under 200pts, and puts out 6 Str6 attacks a turn. For the record, thats the same as a Chaos Dragon, with WS7, and only 1Str lower than a Star Dragon. For the more adventurous, swap out the Boots for Battle Brew.

Keep him with some Orcs or Black Orcs, safe from Animosity, and the static resolution combined with the sheer choppiness should be enough to win almost any combat.

Even a Big Boss can do an admirable job, and he's cheap to boot.



Also, Squig Bombing is a viable tactic for those with special slots to fill. Just 2 Herds can rip apart an enemy battleline, and they are only 60pts for 2 packs. ItP means they aren't going to panic, and the Herders give a lovely 5+ ward save against shooting. Just fling them into a nice compacted area, and watch the fireworks (and blood sprays).

Urgat
25-08-2008, 15:52
Oh, I wanna post about squig hoppers, too.
Why are hoppers so great imho, and how to keep them alive.

*Hoppers rock, because they've got two S5 attacks that move at an average of 9" a turn, and ignore difficult terrains, and, let's be honest, they're dirt cheap for what they can do.
*Hoppers rock, because they're probably the only unit in the game that can engage an enemy unit on the other side of a difficult terrain, even if they don't see said enemy. You can get these darn scouts hidden in that forest, or you can flank charge the inner circle knights which are on the other side, provided you're in range. You don't declare charges, so you can :p
*Hoppers rock, because they're probably the only unit in the game that can engage an enemy unit the same turn they leave a building.
*They're immune to psychology. That's golden for O&G, period. PERIOD!

BUT

Hoppers are fragile. Low toughness, no save, 'nough said. Their quality of skirmisher makes them a bit harder to hit with ranged attacks, but that's pretty much all they have for them in the survivability department. And they suffer from animosity, of course.
The first advice: it goes w/o saying, but even better if I say it, so: use covers. They ignore difficult terrains, so don't hesitate, use covers. Jump from trees to houses and so on. Use impassable terrains to stop them if you want to keep their movement in check for a turn or two, they'll just stop there. Same with houses, if their movement makes them get into contact with the house, they will occupy it, and stop there, obviously.
Houses are also cool to get some shelter from cavalry - light cavalry is known for being good squig slayers.

Keep on the flanks! Squigs don't survive being charged. And if you share the same kind of luck as mine, you'll squabble everytime you're right in front of something you want to charge. Just go along the flanks, that's where you'll get most cover anyway, and where it's easiest to keep out of charge range and LoS. And it's always best to flank/rear charge with them anyway, since they've got zero CR. They're mobile enough to do it, so enjoy :)

Oh, also, avoid like the plague ASF troops. It's like being charged, squigs don't survive that. For the same reason, avoid equal (coz you dice it off) or higher initiative troops defending an obstacle or a building.

Finally: when in doubt, make units of 7. With 7, you can put them all in contact with a 5 wide unit of 20mm bases. Taking less will lower their chance to win if for some reason they engage from the front (which isn't a good way to start a fight with them to begin with), it lowers their chance of getting into contact with the enemy due to shooting, and it won't save you that many points anyway. Take 7, really.

Malorian
25-08-2008, 16:11
I have a question. I see a lot about the goblin on a wolf with the one hit wunda, but I wonder how effective this acually is.

This model isn't exactly cheap point wise so you have to use him right as to not just give away points.

If he hits a chariot he won't make his points back and if he runs after a character the unit champ is just going to take the challenge.

So how is this suppose to work?

Braad
25-08-2008, 16:21
Well, a few additions from my side...

The night gobbo boss on wolf with the one hit wunda, works fine when boosted by the kickin' boots. Also I agree with the uses of the Tricksy trinket. This is ofcourse a true chariot killer!

---EDIT---

@ Malorian
If you charge a chariot and wipe it out, remember that the wolf boss is still alive and kicking, he just exchanged his 15 point weapon for a chariot...)

---END EDIT---

Against opponents that often field at least a few large targets, I always wanted to try to make a huge unit of night gobbo archers (cheap), put in a night gobbo BSB (still quite cheap) and give him the spider banner to make them rain masses of poisoned arrows on whatever big beastie is running around. Maybe not the best way to use the BSB, but if you keep them behind your main line, it should still do some good.

Take a big boss in chariot, carrying porko's pigstikka, join in a second chariot and charge any big and powerfull infantry unit head on (for the rank bonus - pigstikka thing). I once more or less wiped out a big block of saurus like this. Didn't stand a chance, even though they are T4 and stuff. Compare it to you being a hot knife and him being butter.
Overrun afterwards, and charge the back of the line. If possible, cast a WAAAGH or something...

Malorian
25-08-2008, 16:48
@ Malorian
If you charge a chariot and wipe it out, remember that the wolf boss is still alive and kicking, he just exchanged his 15 point weapon for a chariot...)

True, but then he's just going to get sniped by warmachines or magic. :cries:

How about the character hunter? Have you found it actually works? Or only when the character and the unit champ are placed on opposite ends of the unit?

Makaber
25-08-2008, 17:07
On the Suicide Goblin, giving him the Tricksy Trinket makes him superb for dealing with a War Altar early in the game.

And about the Lone Troll, making it a Stone Troll for the MR is a very effective way of negating spells and effects that negate the entire army, such as Wind of Undeath and the Casket of Souls.

Urgat
25-08-2008, 17:17
True, but then he's just going to get sniped by warmachines or magic. :cries:

How about the character hunter? Have you found it actually works? Or only when the character and the unit champ are placed on opposite ends of the unit?

I've always found the idea very silly to be honest. O&G heroes are too precious (Ld, etc) to be wasted on some stupid tactic like that one, which relies so heavily on luck and your opponent not knowing that it's bound to fail.

Malorian
25-08-2008, 18:13
If you were to use a lone troll to be used for redirecting or some extra CR, would you upgrade it? Or leave it as a common troll?

It seems the stone troll would keep him resilient so that the opponent could not easily remove him, but then you are paying extra on a unit you plan to be a throw away unit.

Fredmans
25-08-2008, 19:51
If you were to use a lone troll to be used for redirecting or some extra CR, would you upgrade it? Or leave it as a common troll?

It seems the stone troll would keep him resilient so that the opponent could not easily remove him, but then you are paying extra on a unit you plan to be a throw away unit.

It also depends on what your opponents field. Most of my opponents rarely play magic heavy, therefore the stone troll upgrade is less viable. However, when I play VC, I find it a good investment to stop Winds of Undeath (?). Ethereals are a real pain in the *** for us anyway, and you don't want more of them on the battle field.

I am cheap, so I tend to go for the common troll(s). As you say, why invest more in a throw-away unit? Also, its main purpose is not redirection (like wolf riders), but it can easily serve as one, should the need arise (if you squabble (and it passes its stupid stupidity test)).

/Fredmans

Kaos
26-08-2008, 07:54
I like the very blunt tactic of 6 Savage Orc Big Un Boarboys with waagh banner and a warboss in it. On the turn you call out waaaagh!! with your warboss you get to first move 1D6 extra and then charge 14+1D6" wich should make you reach most stuff on table in turn two. Put them on the flank and aim for a nice juicy target. Why use silly sneaky tricks when you can go get your hammer and smash it in your opponents face? HAMMER SMASH FACE!!

Ive started to play with more magic and a useful trick is to get as many waagh!! spells trough as possible in combination with squigs and other hard hitting things. Moving 2D6" extra plus rerolling misses and striking first is what squigs like the most! Combine it with a Savage Orc Shamanlord with boots and Skull Wand of Kaloth, Waaagh paint and collar of zorga in a unit of blorcs with banner of butchery. He should be able to suck the life out of most things.

Malorian
26-08-2008, 15:32
How about orc magic? I hear some people say it's not competitive but it seems that with magic mushrooms and some of the great spells they have that it can do very well.

Do most people go the magic heavy route? And if so what load out do you find works best?

random.brown
26-08-2008, 17:07
Can someone clarify what "does not autobreak" mean, in reference to the "lone troll" idea?

Sorry in advance for the noob question...

Malorian
26-08-2008, 17:10
You can't be outnumbered by a fear causing opponent if you cause fear yourself.

And if your troll is up against a terror causing opponent he's basically screwed anyway...

random.brown
26-08-2008, 17:29
Ahh, I get it now.

Wouldn't that also be a quality of any number of Trolls, not just a "lone" Troll?

Malorian
26-08-2008, 17:34
All trolls cause fear so it's the same for all of them.

A unit of 3-4 stone trolls would be great for taking on skeletons however...

Fobster
27-08-2008, 05:07
I like the very blunt tactic of 6 Savage Orc Big Un Boarboys with waagh banner and a warboss in it. On the turn you call out waaaagh!! with your warboss you get to first move 1D6 extra and then charge 14+1D6" wich should make you reach most stuff on table in turn two. Put them on the flank and aim for a nice juicy target. Why use silly sneaky tricks when you can go get your hammer and smash it in your opponents face? HAMMER SMASH FACE!!

Ive started to play with more magic and a useful trick is to get as many waagh!! spells trough as possible in combination with squigs and other hard hitting things. Moving 2D6" extra plus rerolling misses and striking first is what squigs like the most! Combine it with a Savage Orc Shamanlord with boots and Skull Wand of Kaloth, Waaagh paint and collar of zorga in a unit of blorcs with banner of butchery. He should be able to suck the life out of most things.

Great tip. Worked quite well when I tried it. Have to watch out for allocated hits. Killed a Hydra and smashed a spearman unit but fell to the blackguard RnF

Fredmans
27-08-2008, 09:11
I like the very blunt tactic of 6 Savage Orc Big Un Boarboys with waagh banner and a warboss in it. On the turn you call out waaaagh!! with your warboss you get to first move 1D6 extra and then charge 14+1D6" wich should make you reach most stuff on table in turn two. Put them on the flank and aim for a nice juicy target. Why use silly sneaky tricks when you can go get your hammer and smash it in your opponents face? HAMMER SMASH FACE!!

I have interpreted the rules for Frenzy and the Waagh banner to be incompatible. Am I wrong? Frenzied units does not declare charges, but measure distances to see if they are forced to charge. The Waagh banner, on frenzied troops, could thus only be used to increase the charge distance in case the enemy flees. My interpretation sucks, though, because savage orc big un boarboyz is the ONE unit that I would like to give the Waagh banner.

/Fredmans

Urgat
27-08-2008, 09:34
How about orc magic? I hear some people say it's not competitive but it seems that with magic mushrooms and some of the great spells they have that it can do very well.

Do most people go the magic heavy route? And if so what load out do you find works best?

I'm going to give my own opinion on the subject, because I can see people not agreeing with me, and why not? I don't hold the truth :p

First, O&G dispelling is top notch, with the banner, the staff of sneaky stealing and the staff of sorcery (I never go out w/o two gob shamans with the two staffs personally), you can lock most magic phases easily.

Now magic, offensive-wise.

** The first problem is animosity. If you put your shaman in a unit that sqaubbles, no magic.
My shamans always run around on their own when it's not too risky, or join a warmachine, just to deal with that. I don't care much about range, I don't play magic offensive.

** The second problem is the fiasco table. It is horrid. My friends often roll snake eyes, and I've rarely seen their sorcerer suffer anything else than losing a power dice or ending the magic phase. Half the waaagh! miscast table will kill our shamans, the rest is crippling. The 12 could be nice, but you have to reroll on the "suicide table" again...

**I don't have much experience with the Big Waaagh, but it did seem excellent. I can perfectly imagine someone wanting to go magic heavy with orc shamans.
But the Little Waaagh? Oh, the spells, themselves, aren't half bad. But what the heck are those casting values? I take goblins to have cheap stuff, and that includes cheap shamans. Well, if you want to have some offensive magic, forget about any spell but the first one if you want to remain cheap, because bare the first spell, they're all 8+ mini. 8+ for the goddamn second spell! The Big Waaagh has two additional 6+ spells before the first 8+ one, I mean, the Big Waaagh has lower casting results than the little Waaagh. Which one is trhe Big one, which one is the Little one, really? Foot of Gork is only 1 less than warpath to cast. Yeah, right.
I know it's sad ranting about how it was better before, but the way of separating Little and Big waaagh before, after the level of the shaman, and not its race, was much more sensible.

**the Waaagh magic bonus, which is (or at least, was) the reason why we got the horrible miscast table, has turned into a one dice bonus/malus, even if you're playing a 72000 points battle. Thank you.

"cools down"

Now everything isn't bad:

**the spells ARE nice, if you ignore the casting values.

**The (goblin) shamans are cheap.

**her... I'm sure if I think hard enough, I could find a third reason, I think I had one, but I forgot it.

Urgat
27-08-2008, 09:36
I have interpreted the rules for Frenzy and the Waagh banner to be incompatible. Am I wrong? Frenzied units does not declare charges, but measure distances to see if they are forced to charge. The Waagh banner, on frenzied troops, could thus only be used to increase the charge distance in case the enemy flees. My interpretation sucks, though, because savage orc big un boarboyz is the ONE unit that I would like to give the Waagh banner.

/Fredmans

Yeah, there's a problem there. The only basic solution is to discuss it before the battle with your opponent.
The way I do is I roll the banner before checking if anybody is in range. Nothing supports that in the rules, but that's the best way, I think.

Warlord Ghazak Gazhkull
27-08-2008, 10:24
So good points are included here, it will certainly help the new greenskin players. I also have some tricks on my sleeve but what do you expect from an old greenskin player.

Greetz
G

Malorian
27-08-2008, 15:00
I figured the little waaagh spells were harder to cast because you can have magic mushrooms to boost them.

Fredmans
27-08-2008, 15:43
I figured the little waaagh spells were harder to cast because you can have magic mushrooms to boost them.

Which gives little or no comfort to common goblin shamans. The casting values are horrible unless you intend to field a goblin great shaman.

/Fredmans

Malorian
27-08-2008, 15:50
Very true... so basically if you are going to go magic heavy go with night goblins or orcs.

So would this be the best character choices for an orc magic heavy list?:

lvl 4 orc
lvl 2 NG X3

I'm actually still thinking it's not worth touching magic, but with some of the magic heavy orc lists doing so well I'm second guessing myself...

Urgat
27-08-2008, 15:53
It all boils down to your luck with dies, really, in the end. If you've got good luck, you wll make a mess of the enemy, if your luck suck, you're going to lose your shamans very fast (I belong to the second category ><)

Malorian
27-08-2008, 17:59
How about we switch to chariots.

What do you think about wolf vs orc chariots?

Chariots for characters?

And there role in the army?

Personally I see them as counter attack units so I need them to pack the most punch and they don't need to be that fast, so boar ones seem the best.

wamphyri101
27-08-2008, 18:49
are squig herds any good?

i have 8 squig hoppers already but costs alot to buy them. wish they would do plastic squigs!

anyway. Just started playing night goblins (im usually a high elf player) for a change and was looking for tips.

roughly i have around 3 units of 30 ng with nts, fanatics etc
around 2 units of 30 archers
8 converted spider riders
3 converted chariots
3 stone trolls
2 pump wagons
8 squig hopper
rock lobber
2 shamens
3 character heroes
think thats about it

skaven keep killing em and too scared to face vc lol

Shamfrit
27-08-2008, 18:56
Wolf Chariots, by far. Cheaper, considerably quicker (18" charge range is absurd) and they're both S5 impact hits, but the Wolf Chariot is +1.

You've got 2 St5 attacks and 2Str4 from the Boar crew, and 4 Str 4 and 3 str 3 from the Wolf Chariot because the upgrades for extra crew/wolves are just so cheap it's hilarious.

More armour for the boar chariot yes, but I fancy Wolf Chariots smashing the front rank away won't need that slight bonus.

Besides, who cares if a goblin or two goes splat into a Dwarf's Tower Shield :D

quina2525
27-08-2008, 19:00
How about we switch to chariots.

What do you think about wolf vs orc chariots?

Chariots for characters?

And there role in the army?

Personally I see them as counter attack units so I need them to pack the most punch and they don't need to be that fast, so boar ones seem the best.

I personally field 2 wolf chariots, 2 boar chariots and a pump wagon in most of my games, and the boar chariots fare much better than wolf chariots with the higher toughness and boar tusker charge and orc crewmen with spears they do tonnes of damage in the first combat.

About characters, i field a goblin shaman in a wolf chariot and he does not bad, gets a couple of spells off, then BLAM...Str 7 hit

haha

EDIT-

I use chariots for flanking, to aid the foot troops, and wolf riders for war-machine hunting [wheey for wolf riders killing 5 war machines in 1 game :D]

Malorian
27-08-2008, 20:51
You've got 2 St5 attacks and 2Str4 from the Boar crew, and 4 Str 4 and 3 str 3 from the Wolf Chariot because the upgrades for extra crew/wolves are just so cheap it's hilarious.

It was my understanding that you shouldn't get the extra wolf because of the frontage issues...

Warlord Ghazak Gazhkull
27-08-2008, 23:11
Chariots for characters?

And there role in the army?

These are a god sent. In my current tourny army I have 3 characters mounted on chariots, 1 shaman, 2 bosses( all goblins). It really scares my opponents. I have a win ratio from about 70% with that list against all armies ( except deamons those are 100% draws:evilgrin:).

It is really nice that I can deploy these the very last and also they have a lot of hitty power, but the equipment is every tourny different, altough shaga's is becoming a item that I always take. But soon I will try to find the points to sqeeuze in a blorc on chariot so he can take advantage from the waaagh so I can put him behind a hill and move on top of it with the waaagh

Greetz
G

Shamfrit
27-08-2008, 23:26
It was my understanding that you shouldn't get the extra wolf because of the frontage issues...

A chariot comes on a chariot base, who said anything about frontage? :evilgrin:

Malorian
28-08-2008, 06:31
I thought if you add a wolf it has to be wider like the special character... if that is not the case I'll really have to rethink taking goblin chariots...

davidvonhauser
30-08-2008, 13:35
Here's my bit;

Night Goblin Archers

Furthermore, when shooting at large targets and units on hills, the ENTIRE UNIT can shoot. BS3/S3 or not, I've found that 20 shots is nothing to laugh at and even 1-2 wounds on a dragon is a few less wounds that your magic/warmachines etc need to cause. This is the main reason I keep a block of NG archers handy as opposed to, for instance, more snotlings.


As awesome as that sounds (and believe me I got rather excited at the prospect of it) I don't think it's actually possible.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but upon closer inspection of my rule book there is no where that it actually states you can use all your ranks to shoot at a large target, and when on a hill you may only use one extra rank (which would be of course, 2). You could get 20 shots off this way from a hill if you do 10 by 2, but not 5 by 4. And the only benifit for large targets is +1 to hit.

EDIT: I suppose you could interpret page 9 to read that yes when shooting units who are on a hill from flat ground, the rear ranks, and hence the entire unit can shoot. But this was the only circumstance. Still hunting, but still can't find where it states you can do this to large targets

Urgat
30-08-2008, 14:01
Wolf Chariots, by far. Cheaper, considerably quicker (18" charge range is absurd) and they're both S5 impact hits, but the Wolf Chariot is +1.

You've got 2 St5 attacks and 2Str4 from the Boar crew, and 4 Str 4 and 3 str 3 from the Wolf Chariot because the upgrades for extra crew/wolves are just so cheap it's hilarious.

More armour for the boar chariot yes, but I fancy Wolf Chariots smashing the front rank away won't need that slight bonus.

Besides, who cares if a goblin or two goes splat into a Dwarf's Tower Shield :D

This needs nuances.
First (to me, at least), the wolf charriot has lost a lot of its appeal when it lost the 2/1 thing. The boar charriot definitively deals more damage than the goblin charriot. I've never found the 18" charge distance so useful with the wolf charriots either. They don't wheel so they save a lot on movement, and I'm trying to get combined charges with RnF units, so it has to match their speed anyway (can't let it go forward on his own either, they aren't very resistant to anything). And, as pointed out, the boar charriot is more resistant; goblin charriots don't last long when arquebusiers target them
And, of course, there's the Ld problem. A charriot that consistently refuses to charge because of fear is of no use whatsoever.
Wolf charriots are rather good for goblins though, they had that much adidtional punch w/o eating up your precious special choices. Just beware shooty armies.


A chariot comes on a chariot base, who said anything about frontage? :evilgrin:

Malorian is right, wolf charriots with 3 wolfs are supposed to be on wider bases (well, wide like 3 wolves). I don't remember where I've seen that rule, but it annoyed me a lot, after the pain I took to convert all my charriots to have three wolves ( because, back in 5th edition, it was a very good idea to get 3, with the fact they could be killed independently and slow the charriot down).


EDIT: I suppose you could interpret page 9 to read that yes when shooting units who are on a hill from flat ground, the rear ranks, and hence the entire unit can shoot. But this was the only circumstance. Still hunting, but still can't find where it states you can do this to large targets

I don't remember where it is stated, but smaller units do not block LoS on large targets, that's why all the goblins can shoot.
So, to expand on the idea:

Tricksy Trick Nombar One:
if your opponent likes fielding large targets, dragons, giants, shaggoth, whatever, consider the trick that would make even skinks jealous: the gob archer unit with BSB totting the spider banner. Don't get too close (these large targets coz terror usually), and then laught as you release 20+ poison shots :evilgrin:

Warlord Ghazak Gazhkull
31-08-2008, 09:01
As awesome as that sounds (and believe me I got rather excited at the prospect of it) I don't think it's actually possible.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but upon closer inspection of my rule book there is no where that it actually states you can use all your ranks to shoot at a large target, and when on a hill you may only use one extra rank (which would be of course, 2). You could get 20 shots off this way from a hill if you do 10 by 2, but not 5 by 4. And the only benifit for large targets is +1 to hit.

EDIT: I suppose you could interpret page 9 to read that yes when shooting units who are on a hill from flat ground, the rear ranks, and hence the entire unit can shoot. But this was the only circumstance. Still hunting, but still can't find where it states you can do this to large targets

It is on page nine, the part from interposing models.

Greetz
G

Storak
31-08-2008, 14:05
I have interpreted the rules for Frenzy and the Waagh banner to be incompatible. Am I wrong? Frenzied units does not declare charges, but measure distances to see if they are forced to charge. The Waagh banner, on frenzied troops, could thus only be used to increase the charge distance in case the enemy flees. My interpretation sucks, though, because savage orc big un boarboyz is the ONE unit that I would like to give the Waagh banner.

/Fredmans

i had accepted this interpretation so far as well, as i had read it before.

but today, i took another look at the rulebook, just to notice that frenzied troops actually do declare charges. (page 52: "...frenzied troops must declare a charge.."

edit: ah, i see. the interpretation is based on the assumptions, that frenzy troops can not declare a charge normally. is there any basis for this?

Shamfrit
31-08-2008, 14:25
We've always played it as thus: Frenzied troops can declare charges as per the normal rules. However, if you do not declare a charge, after all charges are declared then you measure to see if anything is in range, at which point, they're forced to declare a charge.

Urgat
31-08-2008, 15:16
Thing is, by the rules, frenzied troops cannot declare charges before checking ranges, that's part of the problem.

Malorian
02-09-2008, 16:55
How many people use the Waagh banner?

The idea of it on black orks sounds interesting but expensive (same with big uns).

Fredmans
02-09-2008, 19:39
In my experience, the problem is that most units will flee from a beefed-up Black Orc or Big'un charge. Now, in most cases you will be 7 to 8" away from the chargee unit. Your opponent needs to roll very poorly for you to run it down. An extra D6 is aces on cavalry, very situational on infantry. I do not deny that it CAN be extremely good and game-winning, but still situational.

I have started another Black Orc tactic. I set up buildings at the start of the game and run my black orcs into one of them. They are tough in defense, since 10 of them can fight back, and when you call the Waagh, they move out in order to charge in the declare charges phase. I admit it is a once per opponent trick, but it is quite fun to pull off.

/Fredmans

random.brown
02-09-2008, 21:18
A chariot comes on a chariot base

Hmmm...I have two Boar chariots and neither came with a "chariot base," they came with regular cav bases for the boars. I thought I'd just put the boars on the cavalry bases and be done with it.

Is that not right?

Urgat
02-09-2008, 21:38
How many people use the Waagh banner?

Tried it twice. Both times, I rolled 1. And, bad luck or not, I then figured my army was random enough as it was, and I had better ways of spending 25 points than to add yet another movement dictated by a dice roll to my list.

Malorian
02-09-2008, 21:51
I know my lizardmen LOVE their additional D6 movement, but it works a bit differently...

Fredmans
03-09-2008, 00:29
Hmmm...I have two Boar chariots and neither came with a "chariot base," they came with regular cav bases for the boars. I thought I'd just put the boars on the cavalry bases and be done with it.

Is that not right?

Older models came without the chariot base. The chariot base is 50x100 mm, the same as 2x2 cavalry bases, which might be good to know, in case you want to build your own or if it comes up during a game when your chariot gets charged in the flank or rear.

/Fredmans

Shamfrit
03-09-2008, 00:36
For the determining of attacks and the like, they should be on the 50X100 base, the Chariot base isn't mandatory, but it makes it bloody easier, looks nicer, and is easy to mould with half run over Elves etc!

Malorian
03-09-2008, 15:08
Next question:

How do you deal with monsterous creatures like dragons and the bloodthirster?

Just hope the spearchukkas deal with them?

Urgat
03-09-2008, 15:51
For the thirster, well yeah. There's also the night gob archers with spider banner trick I mentioned earlier, and maybe some kitted up characters could try, but other that that or a giant with awesome luck, tough luck with large flying terror causing melee monsters. A few lucky doom diver hits could work, too, or an awesome rolling spree on fanatics, or...
Nah, in fact you only need one thing: luck. Nothing will work if you don't have very good luck, besides the spear chukkas (not that you don't need luck with them too).
For the dragon, if you manage to get a character with the collar of Zorga in contact, you're pretty much set, on the other hand.

Malorian
03-09-2008, 17:00
So basically whatever the thirster charges you just flee with and try to keep the damage done by them to a minimum. Then use the warmachines to take care of other targets that you have a better chance of killing.

Urgat
03-09-2008, 17:24
Yeah. The only problem is that the thirster is a large target, so he can just fly all around and charge whatever he wants, you can't bait it, you can't stop it. Really, that's one of the worst things to face for an O&G army, a thirster. Inverting places, I couldn't see myself losing if I fielded one against my O&G army, I'd just "terror bomb" a bit here and there (I don't think I'd even bother avoiding the spear chukkas having LoS on it, and I'd just scare them away on turn 2), make my way to the flanks, and when the battlefield is suitably busy, I'd start flank-charging, and then... And it seems so simple, so easy... >>

Malorian
03-09-2008, 17:29
That's why I made sure to go with lots of units in my list rather than elite ones so I could have mroe throw away units and not have too many points in one unit for a thirster to kill.

I figure a thirster will kill 2-3 units in the game if your careful.

Urgat
03-09-2008, 17:41
Yeah, just pray you don't fail animosity tests on two or more units that are side-by-side, that is bound to hurt if the BT can take advantage of it.
Another way would be to bait it with something REALLY tasty. Say, a lord on wyvern. For sure the BT is going to go after him -with reason, he's sure to win). So try and have the BT run after it for a couple turns (try and stay out of the 20" charge range). After a couple turns, it won't be possible, so just position the lord where it's annoying, like far in a corner, where the BT will see nothing but outside the battleground when he's done with the lord. When the lord is butchered, the BT has to move again before being useful. Then you've thrown away something big and expensive (but if you planned that from the begining, the orc should be naked, to save points :p), but you've put the BT out of the game for 4 turns, and that's probably worth the sacrifice.
Of course, this requires a very silly opponent to pull successfully :p

Da GoBBo
05-09-2008, 01:25
Thing is, by the rules, frenzied troops cannot declare charges before checking ranges, that's part of the problem.

Can I come back to this one for a sec? The way I see it, you measure and it could happen that you are not obliged to declare a charge. After that's been made clear, you can decide to declare a charge anyway and use your banner to your advantage.

Walls
07-09-2008, 03:11
Some great stuff in here guys, especially for a new O&G player. I got a BOAT load of stuff... I'll post a list. Let's just say I got lots of lots of BfSP stuff :)

So a couple questions:

What size blocks are best for Black Orcs? 20? 25? This block would be f'n tough as hell to break.

Any tactica on Spider Riders? I can see them being used just like wolf riders.

How about the Goblin Warboss on the gigantic spider? I want to develop a spider-ish theme for my army. Gonna replace wolfs and boars with modd'ed spiders in the chariots, have spider riders, goblin bosses on spiders, etc. Maybe Trolls with extra arms to represent the spider in them (even if they get nothing cause of it)

Basic fluff is that an orc force enslaved them and their spider juice addicted giant :) I think it's just a chance to learn greenstuffing, lol. Love Squig models too.

So yeah... spider tactica, black orc unit size... that should do for now! Thanks!

Da GoBBo
07-09-2008, 09:16
What size blocks are best for Black Orcs? 20? 25? This block would be f'n tough as hell to break.


It's a difficult question. Black Orcs are a bit to expensive these days so you might want to consider fielding them as a smaller coop unit. On the other hand its never bad to have one tough hitty unit. Big blocks like this should never be smaller than 25 IMO.



Any tactica on Spider Riders? I can see them being used just like wolf riders.


Not a chance. Wolfriders have 4" marchmove in advantage of spiderriders, this makes a lot of difference. I do think its a very good unit considering u can enter any terrain no swet. This is something the greenies lacked before. U can also use em to harass flanks of course, but the should be somewhat closer to the main force than whats necessary for wolfies.

Fredmans
07-09-2008, 10:10
What size blocks are best for Black Orcs? 20? 25? This block would be f'n tough as hell to break.

As Da GoBBo says, either go big or small. I have given up on large numbers and use a 10-men unit with standard and musician to use as a support unit, that also comes in handy if I ever declare a Waaagh. Another use, that is good against VC, is to get a War Banner into the stalemate, multiple-units-fights that tend to develop.



Any tactica on Spider Riders? I can see them being used just like wolf riders

I play with two wolf rider units and one spider rider unit. I prefer wolves over spiders, due to higher M. The Spiders are there to protect me if there is a wood, or other terrain feature in my battle line. Since they seldom charge, I put bows on them.


Can I come back to this one for a sec? The way I see it, you measure and it could happen that you are not obliged to declare a charge. After that's been made clear, you can decide to declare a charge anyway and use your banner to your advantage.

Hmmm.

"In the declare charges part of the movement phase, after the charges of all non-Frenzied troops have been declared [...], measure to see if any enemies are within charge reach of any Frenzied troops (ie, within the unit's charge move and in their normal arc of sight). If so, the Frenzied unit must declare a charge against that enemy. The player has no choice in this matter; the unit will automatically make its charge move." (BRB, p.52)

As the rules states, all normal charges have already been declared, thus Frenzied troops cannot declare "normal" charges.

Waagh Banner

"The unit adds D6" to its charge move. Declare charges first and then roll..." (O&G p.45, my italics)

My interpretation is that the wording of the banner does not make it possible to use in the way you suggest. According to the banner's rules, charges must be declared first, before adding to your charge move. According to the rules for Frenzied charges, you measure the distance to enemies, and if they are within range of your charge move, you are obliged to charge.

If it would have been possible to use the banner to increase the charge move before checking ranges, Frenzied troops could have used it to their advantage. As the rules clearly state the opposite, they cannot.

/Fredmans

Da GoBBo
07-09-2008, 10:21
My interpretation is that the wording of the banner does not make it possible to use in the way you suggest. According to the banner's rules, charges must be declared first, before adding to your charge move. According to the rules for Frenzied charges, you measure the distance to enemies, and if they are within range of your charge move, you are obliged to charge.

If it would have been possible to use the banner to increase the charge move before checking ranges, Frenzied troops could have used it to their advantage. As the rules clearly state the opposite, they cannot.

/Fredmans

I don't really know if your right. I was under the impression that a frenzied unit could declare a charge after establishing (measuring) whether they have to or not. The rule says "after all non-frenzied troops declared charges, you measure ... etc." Does this mean frenzied troops forfeit their chance to declare a charge on their own free will once you resort to measuring? If that was the case, would the say "after all charges are declared, measure for frenzied troops ... etc." ?

Or maybe I'm just seeing eastereggs again :D

Urgat
07-09-2008, 10:23
Not a chance. Wolfriders have 4" marchmove in advantage of spiderriders, this makes a lot of difference. I do think its a very good unit considering u can enter any terrain no swet. This is something the greenies lacked before. U can also use em to harass flanks of course, but the should be somewhat closer to the main force than whats necessary for wolfies.

Actually, I use them for the same thing. It's just that wolves run around, while spiders run through. Wolves still tend to get there first though, because no matter what, spiders can't get through everything (impassable, buildings).

Shamfrit
07-09-2008, 10:29
I use, thanks to Storak, a block of 15 Wolf Riders with shields, spears and musician and banner as a ranked cavalry block straight to the face, so to speak. Using my Blorc on Wyvern to cover leadership problems with charging, they're proving to be fairly useful.

Spider Riders are always in 5's, with musician, and nothing else. I hide them in woods and skirt around to march block, nothing more. In the odd chance they do get to charge, they never do anything, so use them as very manoeuvrable march blockers/diverts/war machine hunters.

Fredmans
07-09-2008, 10:47
I don't really know if your right. I was under the impression that a frenzied unit could declare a charge after establishing (measuring) whether they have to or not. The rule says "after all non-frenzied troops declared charges, you measure ... etc." Does this mean frenzied troops forfeit their chance to declare a charge on their own free will once you resort to measuring? If that was the case, would the say "after all charges are declared, measure for frenzied troops ... etc." ?

Or maybe I'm just seeing eastereggs again :D

They could in 6th, but I guess you already know that, when you declared a charge like normal or found yourself forced to charge the nearest enemy if within charge reach. However, in 7th, it is kind of hard to refute the logic of "after all non-frenzied troops". This leaves little room for the old kind of voluntary charges. To me, this suggests that frenzied troops abide their own rules for charging, which I also believe was one of the major changes between 6th and 7th.

/Fredmans

Aflo
07-09-2008, 10:55
On the topic of Large terror causers, I'm pretty sure greater demons count as monsters aswell as characters and would therefore also be affected by the collar of Zorga, no? That being the case, you could hold hiim up for atleast a couple of turns with a wolf riding gobbo kitted with olny said item :D

Da GoBBo
07-09-2008, 23:42
They could in 6th, but I guess you already know that, when you declared a charge like normal or found yourself forced to charge the nearest enemy if within charge reach. However, in 7th, it is kind of hard to refute the logic of "after all non-frenzied troops". This leaves little room for the old kind of voluntary charges. To me, this suggests that frenzied troops abide their own rules for charging, which I also believe was one of the major changes between 6th and 7th.

/Fredmans

Hmm yes, that could could very well be the case. I'm not conviced yet though. I don't think the rules absolutly state that you can't declare a charge anyway, but it is a plausible interpretation. Gonna think about it some more.

Walls
09-09-2008, 00:59
What units/builds are generally frowned up in O&G? What would be considered "Cheesey"? I definitely prefer to play friendly but am curious.

Gobbo Lord
09-09-2008, 02:00
The one thing you can never be accused of playing Orcs is cheese. There are no gauranteed cheesy builds. It is my belief that when every army has its 7th edition update anyone still playing with them will gain immortality as the ultimate congratulations.

Malorian
10-09-2008, 15:46
Is it better to go cheap with your characters?

Usually I don't like having expensive lords (VC is the exception) but the current list I'm looking at has a lord that is 263 points, which when I look at it, it higher than I am used to.

Do most of you find it is better just to have cheap characters (like a savage orc bigboss with two choppas) in order to add some kills but not cost an arm and a leg?

Fredmans
10-09-2008, 19:01
Is it better to go cheap with your characters?

Usually I don't like having expensive lords (VC is the exception) but the current list I'm looking at has a lord that is 263 points, which when I look at it, it higher than I am used to.

Do most of you find it is better just to have cheap characters (like a savage orc bigboss with two choppas) in order to add some kills but not cost an arm and a leg?

I did not in 6th, but I feel more and more forced to do so in 7th. I feel it is necessary to field offensive characters in order to gain CR. Not much else in the O&G army can, and (at least in my gaming society) static CR is worth less and less these days. My warboss typically costs between 240 and 280 points.

/Fredmans

Walls
10-09-2008, 22:37
I am trying to figure out a good 2250 army for my O&G's based on what I have.

I have PLENTY of night goblins, tons of spider riders, tons of fanatics. I have a good chuck (over 20?) arrer boys. As well got buncha shamans and gobbo bosses. A wolf chariot, 1 or 2 boar chariots. 112-15 black orks, 3 bosses including a BSB on boars and one orc boss (or Black Orc) on foot with a great weapon. No artillery. Have a giant. 4 Regular Trolls. Bunch of NG Archers.

I got a random weird ton o' stuff in a trade/purchase. A bunch of it is just multiple sets of BfSP plus the extra stuff I mentioned.

I figure the Black Orcs as a chuck, the Arrer Boys would be good for a table quarter holder, 2-3 good blocks of NG's with Fanatics would be the bulk. Maybe 4x5 Spider riders? I am toying wtih the bit of making some alterations and having "wolf" spiders which use wolf rules and stats but are modded out spiders painted different then the other normal spider riders. Could do 2x5 of those, 2x5 spiders. Couple shamans in there? Could the Shamans potentially be on a spider?

Anyone brave enough to help me come up with something here? Please? Pretty please? Don't make a new O&G sucka beg.

Shamfrit
10-09-2008, 22:54
MSU flanking principles work very well with units of 10 Arrer Boyz. Yes, they'll cause panic in the accompanying Goblin units if you're using them in that capacity, but they work very well offering rank stripping shots to Orc Boyz units and the flanking motion can secure you for a second turn win in the dreaded Spearman Vs. Boyz 2nd Turn Dead Scenario. 10 = 60 Points, which is a very respectable MSU cost for Str 4 T4 flankers.

Felworth
11-09-2008, 03:22
Is it better to go cheap with your characters?

Usually I don't like having expensive lords (VC is the exception) but the current list I'm looking at has a lord that is 263 points, which when I look at it, it higher than I am used to.

Do most of you find it is better just to have cheap characters (like a savage orc bigboss with two choppas) in order to add some kills but not cost an arm and a leg?



With the exception of the Warboss, you can generally skimp on outfitting heroes with magic stuff. An additional choppa that grants +1 strength in the first round or a great axe is about as good if not better then most of the magic items anyway.

For the Boss though, I find he needs to blow all 100 points to make him decent.

The enemy knows that without his leadership the army is doomed to fail any stupidity, fear, terror, panic or break test forced on them. He's just too valuable to lose to a cocky enemy hero with a trumped up magic sword.

Urgat
11-09-2008, 10:16
Is it better to go cheap with your characters?

Usually I don't like having expensive lords (VC is the exception) but the current list I'm looking at has a lord that is 263 points, which when I look at it, it higher than I am used to.

Do most of you find it is better just to have cheap characters (like a savage orc bigboss with two choppas) in order to add some kills but not cost an arm and a leg?


I'm not saying it's better (that would be the same as claiming the way I play O&G is THE way), but that's what I do: usually, my characters are usually naked, excepted if I give them protective stuff. Other than that, my shamans have the two staves (stealing and sorcery), and I sometimes take the itty ring. And that's it.
My shamans are there to displel, and my characters rarely ever see action, they're just there to lend Ld.

Shamfrit
11-09-2008, 10:26
Hmm, I've developed a set of 4 characters that I've not changed in a fair few games because they just seem to work:

Black Orc Warboss
Effigy of Mork, Killing Blow, Spiteful Shield, Heavy Armour, Boar. (Sometimes replaced with a Wyvern.)

Black Orc Big Boss
Battle Standard, Mork's Spirit Totem, Heavy Armour, Boar.

Night Goblin Shaman, Lvl. 2
Staff of Sneaky Stealin'

Savage Orc Shaman, Lvl. 2
This varies, I sometimes take a 3 attack shaman, with Nibbla's, or Staff of Baduum or the simple Power Stone/Scroll combo. To make getting the bigger spells off easier.

--

This gives a good balance of Magic Offence, Defence, Leadership and Protected Characters. A bit of an all rounded, the only problem for me is, whenever I put my General on a Wyvern he never hits...a ******* thing!

Malorian
11-09-2008, 13:12
Any magical weapons on the black orc characters Shamfrit?

Shamfrit
11-09-2008, 14:47
If I'm taking a Black Orc I never take magical weapons. We're paying for Armed To Da Teeth as is, I don't see the need to pay more, although there's the whole Ethereal Issue, but the basic magical missiles from the spellcasters should see to that - The Black Orc Warboss is more defense than offense.

I do occasionally take Skull Wand of Khaloth on the Savage Orc Shaman though *grin.*

Malorian
11-09-2008, 16:59
The problem is that you don't get the +1 from the choppa when mounted, so you would have to use the great weapon and lose the use of your shield.

I'm even thinging of dropping the boar so that the great weapon can give the +2 and I save a good amount of points.

Peril
11-09-2008, 18:38
Frenzied units can declare normal charges. The funny bit of wording about what happens after charges are declared does not preclude frenzied units from declaring charges normally. It would otherwise be noted in the definition of Frenzy.

.*lucifer*.
11-09-2008, 19:00
Referring to the magic heavy army list. I use to take a magic heave list with one orc shaman with 2 stones and 2 ng shamans with 3 mushrooms each and it would work grate except for the accessional double 1s

But I changed my list setup after in a tournament my first spell on my first turn rolld double 1s and then rolled double 1s.

Brother Drakist
12-09-2008, 13:13
Referring to the magic heavy army list. I use to take a magic heave list with one orc shaman with 2 stones and 2 ng shamans with 3 mushrooms each and it would work grate except for the accessional double 1s

But I changed my list setup after in a tournament my first spell on my first turn rolld double 1s and then rolled double 1s.

This happened to me in the first turn of a game I played this weekend. One of many poor rolls and poor tactics on my part. Nothing like insta-killing your shammie and taking some troops along with him. I am definately going to be switching things around some, and I need to become more tactically inclined when playing Fantasy.

I would like to run an Orc Lord on boar, a gobbo shaman with staff o' stealin, and then run as many combat Heros as possible to assist my rank and file troops. However I will be keeping them cheap as well.

Malorian
12-09-2008, 14:41
I've been wondering if refused flank would be a better tactic for orcs.

Black orcs with the Waaagh banner on the far flank and then a few orc blocks to support it, capped off with a NG unit on the end (about mid board) full of fanatics. Then to cover the other side you could use a squig herd bomb and wold riders.

Do you figure it would work?

Storak
12-09-2008, 14:57
I've been wondering if refused flank would be a better tactic for orcs.

Black orcs with the Waaagh banner on the far flank and then a few orc blocks to support it, capped off with a NG unit on the end (about mid board) full of fanatics. Then to cover the other side you could use a squig herd bomb and wold riders.

Do you figure it would work?

refused flank was THE tactic for O&G, when they still had a real army book.

now they decided to give a save to those hit by a ball-on-chain, and at the same time are giving away CORE flyers/fast cav units to every army, that are CHEAPER than 3 fanatics.
your enemy can simply chose to force you to bomb your own battle line. utterly stupid.

basically they send over 60 points of flyers or 30 to 40 points of cav, releasing your fanatics, march blocking your first turn and disrupting "we show em" movements, by being the closest target.

and assuming average rolls against 3 fanatics, they will still have models left to continue to block marchers or even killing warmachines..

Malorian
12-09-2008, 15:11
So then I guess it would be better to save the points from fanatics and instead get some squig hoppers behind your line to deal with march blockers...

How about that?

Storak
12-09-2008, 15:31
So then I guess it would be better to save the points from fanatics and instead get some squig hoppers behind your line to deal with march blockers...

How about that?

never tried it, but sounds like a decent idea. (being able to move in every direction is an advantage, when guarding your back..) problem with the hoppers is, they cost a (precious) special slot..)

ps: second thought, will not work, as hoppers can t be placed carefully where you want them, due to random movement. (what will happen when you bump them against the back of one of your units? need to check the book..)

using 2 units of shooty night gobbos with 3 fanatics between them sounds OKish, but is pretty expensive..

Brother Drakist
12-09-2008, 16:33
Currently I run 5 Fanatics between 2 squads of 30 night gobbos. To be honest I am thinking of dropping the fanatics to 0. While they do provide a bit of fear factor, I am already dealing with enough random events via animosity.

........I just realized how much I need to rework my list :eek:.

Malorian
12-09-2008, 17:06
Don't hoppers just stop if the hit one of your own units? So they could stay behind your lines and keep running into the back of one of your units until you need them.

This also opens up another tactic as the block infront could flee a charge (running over the ItP hoppers, causing a failed charge, and then you can counter charge with the hoppers on your turn. (Assuming the dice don't turn against you.)


Edit:

This goes back to my idea with going with cheaper characters.

Currently my general is:
Black orc warboss w/ Akk'rit Axe, the Kicking Boots, Best Boss 'At, heavy armor, shield, boar for 263 points.

For exactly the same amount of points I could get:
Savage orc warboss w/ extra choppa, iron gnashas, light armor
Black orc big boss w/ heavy armor
An extra boy in each of my two boar chariots
(Or for a point less I could change the useless light armor for a shield on the black orc for when it's better to have a better save than use the great weapon.)

I've heard people say that their characters don't get attacked often anyway so the lack of defence isn't that big of a deal, and if a character really wants to take the chance of rushing my general they are taking a real risk.

Thoughts?

Da GoBBo
12-09-2008, 23:46
I just realized how much I need to rework my list :eek:.

Man that's so true. I'm currently thinking of running small nightgoblin units with nets (95+ points a piece, eek) between my orc blocks. A flanking unit that can reduce the strength of target unit is nice with T4, AS4+ critters. Also, you can let the gobbo's flee and the orcs will hold the line, might the opponent think it wise to charge the nighties. Add some chariots, lonely trolls and small orc units with two choppa's and ye have a battleline to work around.

jpf1982
13-09-2008, 00:05
Squig hoppers stop when they hit a unit so what you'd do is bounce them between two blocks of infantry until you feel that you can get a charge off and then have them come trundeling out.

greenskinworld
13-09-2008, 06:27
How do you guys like snotling pump wagons? that mandatory 2d6 movement seems a bit unreliable and annoying but 2d6 str 4 impact hits on the charge sounds pretty nice. It could really do some damage to average toughness troops (i.e T3).

jpf1982
13-09-2008, 08:30
I think problem with pump wagons is not only random movement but that everything is random. Entirely... 2D6 hits can hurt, but you could just as easily only do 4-6 hits and fail utterly to do squat. However movement for this can be controlled same as hoppers; just bounce it between units until you see a viable target.

Shamfrit
13-09-2008, 18:23
This also opens up another tactic as the block infront could flee a charge (running over the ItP hoppers, causing a failed charge, and then you can counter charge with the hoppers on your turn. (Assuming the dice don't turn against you.)

Malorian, that is pretty damned inspired. Especially since a Night Goblin barebones is what, 60points? A screen, a flank unit, an arrow absorbed, and a screen for your Hoppers.

It would be devilish with Short Bows and Skarsnik's tricksy Traps :D

---

EDIT: A list using Skarnsik and Malorian's idea as written above:

Skarsnik Of the Eight Peaks

Skarsnik - 205

Goblin Shaman Lvl. 2
Scroll, Scroll

Goblin Shaman Lvl. 2
Staff of Sneaky Stealin’

Goblin Shaman Lvl. 2
Staff of Sorcery, Nibbla’s Itty Ring

625

20 Night Goblins
Bows, Fanatic, Musician
89

20 Night Goblins
Bows, Fanatic, Musician
89

20 Night Goblins
Bows, Fanatic, Musician
89

25 Goblins
Musician, Standard, Shield.
112

25 Goblins
Musician, Standard, Shield.
112

25 Goblins
Musician, Standard, Shield.
112

30 Night Goblins
3 Fanatics, Musician, Boss, Standard, Nets.
211

2 Bases of Snotlings
40

2 Bases of Snotlings
40

2 Bases of Snotlings
40

---

10 Squig Hoppers
150

10 Squig Hoppers
150

4 Spear Chukkas.
140

---

1999

Shamfrit
13-09-2008, 23:32
Army List Added Above - comments?

Malorian
16-09-2008, 15:58
It looks interesting to me but what do I know : )

With so many units it might be hard to find spots for the spear chukkas (unless you have a hill) but I guess you need the defense against monsterous creatures.

I'd also be tempted to drop the scrolls for the horn.

Whitehorn
17-09-2008, 13:02
Furthermore, when shooting at large targets and units on hills, the ENTIRE UNIT can shoot.

Interesting. This isn't in the rulebook?

neXus6
17-09-2008, 13:28
Yes it is...kinda, to my knowledge the only reason you can only shoot in 1 rank is because the models infront block line of sight. With Large Targets models do not block line of sight hence the whole unit can off load into them.

I don't think you can do it against units on hills though...but I'm not sure about that one, it's been a while since I've looked and it's not something that tends to come up in my games.



Seems to be a few people realising that buying a load of fanatics is not a clever idea, it was a poor crutch for bad players in the previous edition and I'm glad to see people being forced to realise that with the new edition, don't get me wrong I'm no fan of the current situation but I feel it is the OTHER army books that need to be toned down a little not Greenskins made more powerful.


Man that's so true. I'm currently thinking of running small nightgoblin units with nets (95+ points a piece, eek) between my orc blocks. A flanking unit that can reduce the strength of target unit is nice with T4, AS4+ critters. Also, you can let the gobbo's flee and the orcs will hold the line, might the opponent think it wise to charge the nighties. Add some chariots, lonely trolls and small orc units with two choppa's and ye have a battleline to work around.

While I haven't managed to get a game with it yet that is pretty much the basis of my current army. :D

Whitehorn
17-09-2008, 13:50
Thank you. Page 9 in line of sight.

Large targets can be seen through models that are not large themselves :)

neXus6
17-09-2008, 13:57
Nice to see me memory still works on occation. :D

Though that would lead me to still question the thing about being able to shoot multiple ranks up at units on hills.


I need to buy a new carry case and get some games in with my Greenskins (shifting 120+ish models worth of 1500pt army can be a pain), I've not played with them under the new rules but I know people who have and they are not as bad as the rather vocal nay-sayers suggest. :p

Need to get a mounted warboss and some Savage Orc Boar Boys too to make the 2000pt army, I feel a bit cheeky using my 4/5th ed Savage Orcs as Big Uns. :)
And then I'll look into replacing my Giant with some Trolls, I like Trolls...when they are within 12" of the general. :D

The core is based around 2 units of 24 Orcs with supporting units of 20 nightgoblins with netters, then the real support and hitters in the form of 2 Boar Chariots, 2 Spear Chukkas and a couple of units of wolf riders. Thats about 1000pts so add to that Big Boss, Battle Standard, Shaman and a Giant/Trolls and it's a pretty workable 1500, or atleast I hope it will be.

Whitehorn
17-09-2008, 14:04
They can both SEE and SHOOT. So, you can measure from the rear ranks for LOS to allow sight to shoot or charge a large target (or a target on a hill).

The next section says it is true vs units on hills too. The entire unit can see those on a hill assuming normal LOS isn't blocked by terrain / large target, etc.

neXus6
17-09-2008, 14:07
Hmm, very nice, I'll have to remember that. :D

Malorian
17-09-2008, 21:20
I've heard some talk about a fully ranked wolf rider unit.

Does this really work? I know you would be hitting the enemy quickly and hard (especially if there is a hero in there), but it seems pretty expensive and more of a glass hammer.

If the opponent gets first turn then that unit is probably shot to bits...

However, compared to a fully ranked unit of black orcs they seem like they could be more effective for about the same amount of points...

Shamfrit
17-09-2008, 21:39
You might not believe this...but today, I was actually glad to have rolled a 4 on the Miscast Table for my Orc Shaman!

Why? You might ask with horrid trepidation! Because it took the last wound off the Paymaster sitting next to him, causing 5 units to panic and flee, swinging the game round after 5 miscasts, abysmal rolling and terrible Animosity results - leading me to steam rolling through the remainder of his army and pulling of Waaagh! (The Spell) to combine charge his remaining units and sweep the floor.

That is the first time a Miscast has actually won me a game!

I am starting to see the first few turns of sheer stress as being a veiled gesture...because I can see Greenskins actually working now I've figured out 'creative wheeling' and 'resolving Animosity in the cunning order'.

MY level 4 shaman was running round the table top with 1 wound, frenzy, stupidity and no protection at all for three turns as well O.o.

Storak
17-09-2008, 22:22
I am starting to see the first few turns of sheer stress as being a veiled gesture...because I can see Greenskins actually working now I've figured out 'creative wheeling' and 'resolving Animosity in the cunning order'.

funny story :)

i don t want to disrupt your good mood, but that "cunning order" thing wont work. the rules are pretty strict. you have to start on one side, and work your way through your army. (page 16)

Shamfrit
17-09-2008, 22:35
I'm in total agreement with you Storak, however, there's nothing in the Army Book which tells you which end of the table to start at - and sometimes that makes every little bit of difference.

Whitehorn
17-09-2008, 22:50
Well I am glad I found out the LOS ruling today.

A unit of 21 goblins with shortbows managed to kill a Wood Elf lord from atop his dragon after being charged. I rolled snakes eyes for the terror test (just for style!).

Sadly his Dragon gained permanent frenzy and hatred as a result, but the battle still went very well for me :)

Doominator
24-09-2008, 23:59
Okay, I have some quick(or perhaps not so quick) questions for this greenskin tactic thread:
Last Christmas I got the Battle of Skull Pass and, after reading the fluff regarding Night Goblins and Dwarfs, Im thinking of starting an all Night Gobbo army.
1. Are all Night Goblin armies weak and not so flexible? Is there a one-way-to-win strategy to this army? Any adivce? From what I know I need to drown my opponent in a sea of Goblins(which is good practice for my inevitable Skaven army).
2. Are snotling pump wagons worth anything?

jpf1982
25-09-2008, 16:05
Okay, I have some quick(or perhaps not so quick) questions for this green skin tactic thread:
Last Christmas I got the Battle of Skull Pass and, after reading the fluff regarding Night Goblins and Dwarfs, I’m thinking of starting an all Night Gobbo army.
1. Are all Night Goblin armies weak and not so flexible? Is there a one-way-to-win strategy to this army? Any advice? From what I know I need to drown my opponent in a sea of Goblins(which is good practice for my inevitable Skaven army).
2. Are snotling pump wagons worth anything?

I’ve won the occasional game with my NG horde; but I don’t think this is the way you want to go. It is tempting because of the BfSP set and how cheap you can get so many goblins; but it’s a very poor army. Even poorer in the current environment of retardedly powerful army books. That said; don’t let me stop you doing what you want to do though. My NG horde has 120 Spear goblins alone and then of course there squig herders/hoppers, ng’s with short bows, characters, I’ve converted chariots being pulled by squigs, etc…

As for the pump wagons… They are pretty cool in low points games in my opinion because you’re getting 2 chariots without using a special slot and without mounting a character on one. The random movement has however corn holed me a number of times so there reliability is suspect at best and now I hardly use them since investing in a 2nd doom diver which I find infinitely more useful. Just my two cents.

Malorian
25-09-2008, 16:24
I'm starting to think that the pump wagons are a good way to go. Very cheap and you can easily use them to guard your flanks.

Just put them beside a block and ram it into them (thus controlling their movement as it can't pass through your own unit), then move up the block. When the enemy hits your block you can counter with the pump wagon (moving 8 inches shouldn't be that hard to do) and then wipe out most of their front rank before they get to attack.

(By counter I mean the enemy charges and slaughters a cheap unit of wolves infront of the block and then overruns into the block, then on your turn you counter with pump wagon.)

Kaos
27-09-2008, 07:43
I had a green flash of possible insight. What about a unit of 20ish spiderriders with a bsb in it and warbanner on him? If the unit gets a flank we are looking at +8 combat res. And why spiders instead of wolves? Because a unit of 20 cav is larger than life and could get entangled in terrain and with spiders you can even use terrain as protection for shooting or charges.

I would like to try this and also combine with the one hit wonda goblin big boss in a chariot, with tricksy trinket perhaps. This way i can threaten the flank of the target unit with him if i need to charge a front with the spiders. Or the other way around.

Of course.. fear and animosity will be a problem but then it allways will be.

Ideas? Comments? Someone tested this?

Storak
27-09-2008, 08:08
I had a green flash of possible insight. What about a unit of 20ish spiderriders with a bsb in it and warbanner on him? If the unit gets a flank we are looking at +8 combat res. And why spiders instead of wolves? Because a unit of 20 cav is larger than life and could get entangled in terrain and with spiders you can even use terrain as protection for shooting or charges.

I would like to try this and also combine with the one hit wonda goblin big boss in a chariot, with tricksy trinket perhaps. This way i can threaten the flank of the target unit with him if i need to charge a front with the spiders. Or the other way around.

Of course.. fear and animosity will be a problem but then it allways will be.

Ideas? Comments? Someone tested this?

spider riders always are fast cav. no rank bonus ever.

wolf riders can get a rank bonus, when they add shields

a unit of 20 wolfs will be incredibly fragile. and Ld6 or 7, as they will be out of reach of the general.

butting the battle banner in, would take the benefit of a battle standard from the army and keep you from the dispel spirit banner. (best magic item in the book)i think that a smaller unit could add 1 or 2 ranks to a fast attack of a mounted army along sides chariots and savage boars...

ps: i assume that adding a orc char on a boar stop the unit from moving freely through terrain?!?

Kaos
27-09-2008, 08:57
Doh! Fast cav doesnt get rank bonus, i totally forgot that haha.. Well i thought about the leadership problem and havin a warboss somewhere near in a chariot or unit of boarboys might come in handy? Or perhaps even on a wyvern.

Morks spirit totem can be used on a bigun unit.

The testlist i made have:

Savage warboss in a unit of SOrc Bigun Boarboyz (banner of butchery)
Goblin bigboss BSB in unit of wolves(instead of spiders)
Goblin BB on chariot, one hit wunda and tricksy trinket
Scroll Goblin

Biguns with morks totem
orc boyz
3x wolves/spiders in some combination. Fast cav.
2 chuckas
goblin and orc chariot
stone and rivertroll

Idea is to make a hard charge as fast as possible with a strong follow up of boyz. break the line in one spot and flood trough and get the boys to hold the back of the fast stuff. trolls and chariots will try and knock away irritating stuff that could hinder the plan.

Malorian
27-09-2008, 16:04
I don't think morks totem should be in a big'uns unit. If you do that you need to have the unit at at least 25 in order to keep the ranks to make the banner work, and that's a lot of points. Your far better off putting it on a character and joining a cheaper unit.

What do you guys think about Gorbad Ironclaw? I was going to use the model as my boss, but he's actually pretty good. Ld 10 at 18 inches pretty much solves the leadership issue of the army, and he's no push over in combat either. Sure his ability falls to 6 inches once he takes a wound, but at that point you should be half way through the game and locked in combat.

Thoughts?

neXus6
27-09-2008, 17:30
I've not used him but Gorbad does seem like a damn useful chap to have around. :D

On the Night Goblin army front I think they can be effective as long as you go out of your way to convert Night Goblin variants of other choices in the army, but yeah Goblin only armies aren't like the good old days. Dark Elves can have an infinate number of characters but it was unbalanced giving goblins an extra big boss per 1k. :rolleyes:
Massed chariot armies can still be done if you mount up all your characters.

Basicly a Night Goblin themed army playing with Mixed Gobbo rules is probably the best bet.

Doominator
28-09-2008, 00:28
Ah thanks on clraifying on the Night Gobbo horde thing. I probably will start plans on some Night Goblin themed units.
Also, what of Giants?
They seem rather random and spontaneous so are they worth it?

neXus6
28-09-2008, 01:25
Well...Giants are less likely to run away than anything else which is a good start and they give some hitting power.
And the bottom line...if you don't want something rather random and spontaneous you shouldn't do a goblin army.
:D ;)

That said I do love Trolls, though perhaps trolls when your highest Ld is 7 could be a bit of a disaster.
:p

RossS
29-09-2008, 09:11
Giants are alright. They provide a fairly hitty unit that plenty of players are excessively fearful of. I take one occasionally mainly to serve as a distraction. I would rather the enemy shoot my giant than my swarms of fragile Night Gobbo Squig Carts (goblin chariots) and Orc Boyz.

I would, of course, prefer Trolls. A man of taste can never have enough Trolls.

Malorian
30-09-2008, 16:12
If I have two fanatics in my army what would you suggest:

-Keep them,
-or trade them for a pump wagon and a wolf chariot for my shaman?

Avian
30-09-2008, 17:00
Two Fanatics = 50 pts
Pump Wagon + Wolf Chariot = 100 pts

Not sure what else you are trading, but a lot depends on what else you have and what you are facing.

Malorian
30-09-2008, 17:17
*Slaps head* For some reason I looked at my list and thought they were 50 points EACH, which made me obviously start wondering if they are worth it. (Guess I'm getting a little too worked up over my first game tomorrow)

Alright, lets change that then, would you rather have the two fanatics or a wolf chariot for the shaman? (Cutting 10 points somewhere else)

bubbathebrute
01-10-2008, 07:55
I play an almost pure night goblin force and actually have a very high win to loss ratio. The only two armies that my army really struggles with are wood elves and beastmen. Here are my thoughts and tactics on playing a pure night goblin army.

The plan of my army is to have a few solid blocks of night goblins in the middle of my deployment, all loaded with fanatics. While my opponent waits for the fanatics to be released with his sacrificial units and for them to clear after they have been released, I pummel him with lots of magic and spear chukkas. Ohh and two giants sneak up the flank.

Now for the detail. I have just read many posts on this thread of people dissing (wow dissing passed spell check) fanatics. Well I can see why people get frustrated with their performance when they only take a couple. Orcs and goblins is an army needing lots of luck and chance. When you are playing with two fanatics they are more then likely not going to reach the enemy or the opponent is just going to avoid them. That is why you need to beat ladyluck by taking lots of fanatics....I take ten. Ten fanatics spread across 4 units of night goblins. This gives enough of a chance of the fanatics doing something to their army and, like mentioned above, this creates the perfect screen and time for you to kill things with magic and shooting. And dont be afraid of them coming back at you, its not like they will kill anything important, just gobbos.

A point on fanatics:
To prolong the enemy assault I like to release the fanatics on my turn. If I see the enemy approaching me and he is one turn away from assaulting then I often times move forward to release the fanatics. This puts a nice line of fanatics in front of you which do not move again until your next turn. He will then have to decide to charge through fanatics or wait them out.

While the fanatics are being released I use 2 giants and 2 units of squig hoppers running up the flank to kill things and create more distraction. Like I said, if you want to win using orcs and goblins you have to negate the random ridiculousness of the army. Therefore, take things in pairs: two giants and two squig hoppers. Squig hoppers are amazing for their points. They will chew through anything. Giants also work better in pairs. See your opponent react when two giants are rolling at him.

Goblins have great choices for shooting. I personally take 4 spear chukkas. They are so cheap and in all my games, I can only remember one instance when they didn’t make their points back. There isn’t much else a goblin army can do to defend from big flying nasties besides spear chukkas and fanatics.

Little waaaagh is amazing. I use 3 shamans in my army. I hardly ever use mushrooms. The miscast table is way too horrid for me risking a 1 in 6 chance. Just the other week, in two games I miscast 7 times without the use of mushrooms. Thats with casting spells on 2-3 dice so I dont need anymore chance of miscasting. When I do mess around with mushrooms, I only use them when I have already rolled a one. That way, if I were to roll a one on the mushroom dice then I don’t feel so bad for miscasting because there is already that one out there. On another note, foot of gork and the little waaagh spells are amazing. They are my personal favorites.

Getting tired…I would love to go into more detail of each unit and characters but last couple words of advice, take multiple units of fast cav and don’t be afraid to sacrifice units!

hope this helps

Avian
01-10-2008, 08:12
That doesn't really sound like an almost pure Night Goblin force to me if you include two Giants, four Spear Chukkas and multiple units of fast cavalry. To me it sounds like you take Night Goblins for what they do best and non-Night Goblin units when they do best. :p

What do you take for your general?

Fredmans
01-10-2008, 09:13
While my opponent waits for the fanatics to be released with his sacrificial units and for them to clear after they have been released, I pummel him with lots of magic and spear chukkas. Ohh and two giants sneak up the flank.

This gives enough of a chance of the fanatics doing something to their army and, like mentioned above, this creates the perfect screen and time for you to kill things with magic and shooting. And dont be afraid of them coming back at you, its not like they will kill anything important, just gobbos.

A point on fanatics:
To prolong the enemy assault I like to release the fanatics on my turn. If I see the enemy approaching me and he is one turn away from assaulting then I often times move forward to release the fanatics.

All valid points. My biggest gripe with Fanatics is that they do not fit into my battle plan, whereas they fit perfectly into yours. I play a lot of Empire, Dwarves and castling VC. If I put out a Fanatics screen I will have to charge through it myself. But if you go for shooting and magic, Fanatics can buy you a lot of valuable time. As with a lot of other items and units in the O&G book, Fanatics are situational. When I use Fanatics, I keep a night goblin unit in reserve, and just like you do, I march it forward to release my fanatics in the general vicinity of where I want them to be.

/Fredmans

Storak
01-10-2008, 13:49
how are you playing fanatics against charging flyers?

fanatics released at 8 inch, a roll of 8 will hit the flyer. then he can continue his charge, flying over the other fanatics, who rolled below 7 and remain in front of him?

Avian
01-10-2008, 13:59
Yep, that is correct.

(flying rules in Warhammer are rather odd, best not to think about the logic of them too much...)

Storak
01-10-2008, 14:10
Yep, that is correct.

(flying rules in Warhammer are rather odd, best not to think about the logic of them too much...)

a single sentence in the fanatics rules should have fixed this: "flyers will be hit if they move over a fanatic during a charge move."

as the rules stand, it takes a minor miracle for a full set of 3 fanatics, to cause a single wound on a bloodthirster..

Aldoran
01-10-2008, 14:12
how are you playing fanatics against charging flyers?

fanatics released at 8 inch, a roll of 8 will hit the flyer. then he can continue his charge, flying over the other fanatics, who rolled below 7 and remain in front of him?

Unfortunatelly fanatic will hit only on a roll of a 9+:cries:

Fanatics now inflict hits only if they overlap with enemy's base, not when they come into contact...

Ofc you can ignore this if yuo play in friendly enviroment.

Avian
01-10-2008, 14:16
That is a case of rules-imagining. Enemy units are halted when they come WITHIN 8", not OUTSIDE 8". So a roll of 8 will always overlap slightly if you take the shortest route.

Aldoran
01-10-2008, 14:23
Oh! Thanks, you just made someone happy :)
btw: update your site please, need smth to read and think about :)

Avian
01-10-2008, 14:46
Am busy painting greenies. Must have Night Goblin army ready for tournament in a month (and hopefully figure out way not to get completely squished). ;)

bubbathebrute
01-10-2008, 17:18
That doesn't really sound like an almost pure Night Goblin force to me if you include two Giants, four Spear Chukkas and multiple units of fast cavalry. To me it sounds like you take Night Goblins for what they do best and non-Night Goblin units when they do best. :p

What do you take for your general?

I dont consider giants going against the night goblin theme and only see spear chukkas and forest spider riders steering a little off from it. i do not play with wolf riders. The only thing in my army that goes against it in my eyes is my goblin warboss. Hes the only thing i hear people laugh at when i mention im playing night goblins and pull him out. I use to use a ng warboss with the horn of ungork for the leadership but that wasnt cutting it. So he got upgraded to a regular goblin. Thats why i wrote almost pure ngs.

I actually got the idea for the ng to goblin warboss idea from someone on here who plays a very similar build (at least i think it was here).

Avian
01-10-2008, 17:43
Well, you can add me to the number of people who laugh at you when you call it an almost pure NG army. :D When you cover up ALL the weak points in a Night Goblin lists with stuff that isn't Night Goblin, then you would be hard pressed to call it anything like a Night Goblin list.

Essentially, I would say you are playing with a mixed Goblin list.

bubbathebrute
01-10-2008, 18:15
Well, you can add me to the number of people who laugh at you when you call it an almost pure NG army. :D When you cover up ALL the weak points in a Night Goblin lists with stuff that isn't Night Goblin, then you would be hard pressed to call it anything like a Night Goblin list.

Essentially, I would say you are playing with a mixed Goblin list.

Go to any forum and look at the armylists titled night goblins. See how many you can find that dont contain a warmachine, a fast cav, or a monster unit type. With my quick glance, I found none. My army has more night goblins then half of them out there. Anyways, i havent been laughed at for calling it a night goblin force, just that it contains a goblin warboss. I think you and I have very different warhammer philosophy. That is why I disagree with a lot of your comments that I have read on forums so I doubt what I say will have any sway over you.

Its funny how a persons play style or warhammer philosophy(as I like to call it) can have such an effect over whether a unit is viable or not. There are units that I take for some armies that I see no one else take but are a backbone to mine and there are units that are the backbone for others that dont work for me. I hope that people can read all the takes on an armlists/tactics and take out what works best for them.

Malorian
01-10-2008, 18:23
Everyone has their own style, but at the same time a night goblin army should only have night goblins (although some monsters never hurt anyone).

Once you start mixing in other units just to patch up the weaknesses then it becomes a mixed list (although generally themed).

Much like the people that run a 'khorne armies' with horrors for DD, for 'combat dwarfs' full of warmachines and shooting.

bubbathebrute
01-10-2008, 20:56
Everyone has their own style, but at the same time a night goblin army should only have night goblins (although some monsters never hurt anyone).

Once you start mixing in other units just to patch up the weaknesses then it becomes a mixed list (although generally themed).

Much like the people that run a 'khorne armies' with horrors for DD, for 'combat dwarfs' full of warmachines and shooting.

I agree completely. I would not call my list a pure night goblin army but I would call my army a night goblin army considering 75 percent of my points go towards that theme. A combat dwarf army can have a anvil of doom or have 1-2 units of shooting in my mind and not take away from that. When an empire or dwarf gunline army has only one or two units of rnf troops you still call it a gunline. Thats all I am saying. Back to topic.

Now I want to make a note about hoppers:

Hoppers are a unit that took a bit for me to get use to. With their random movement and their lack of armor, I often times charged them straight up the flank at the enemy. This would lead to me playing a little too aggressive with them and trying to get into contact with something that was a little too far. This often times would lead me to "congo lining" my hoppers because only one would reach the enemy. To avoid this I take an extra turn to get my hoppers into contact. In their movement phase I will declare that I am moving them straight passed the enemy, skimming them as to not make contact. This places your hoppers close to the enemy and usually on a flank or rear. now your opponent has to decide what to do with them. And if you want to engage the enemy unit next turn, your hoppers are within a reasonable distance so that relying on the 3d6 movement isnt so much a thing of chance (notice how the reoccurring theme and stategy of my army is to reduce chance).You can also magic your hoppers with a waaaghh spell into the enemy. So my point is that patience with hoppers has worked better for me in my experience then when I have played them too aggressive. Hoppers have such an amazing damage potential that they should not be overlooked.

Avian
02-10-2008, 08:56
I'm not arguing effectiveness, but when you state:

I play an almost pure night goblin force and actually have a very high win to loss ratio.
and it turns out that you have compensated for ALL the weaknesses of a Night Goblin army (lack of leadership, shooting, fast cavalry and staying power) with non-Night Goblin stuff, then you really can't expect to be taken very seriously.

Frankly, if you take two Giants (410 pts), a Goblin Warboss (~100 pts), four spear chukkas (140 pts) and multiple units of fast cavalry (~150-200 pts), you are looking at something like 60% left for actual Night Goblins, and not 75%. A combat dwarf army with 60% combat stuff would not be called a combat dwarf army.

So there. :p

My Night Goblin army, on the other hand, only has Night Goblins and Snotlings in it. Obviously it is less effective than your mixed Goblin army, but it is genuinely themed. ;)

Malorian
02-10-2008, 15:11
Lets get this thread back on track.

Against a stank do you find your spear chukkas are enough? Currently that would be my plan, blast it with spear chukkas and then let the warboss finish it off.

What do you guys do?

EvC
02-10-2008, 15:28
I think that would work well enough. Each Spear Chukka has a 1/3 chance of doing a wound, multiplied to D3, so each shot should do around a wound. You can blast it for the first couple of turns to whittle it down so it can barely do anything, then go back and finish it off later, either with your Warboss or more shooting, whatever.

Fredmans
02-10-2008, 15:36
I agree, with the added note of fielding 4 spear chukkas or 2 chukkas and other war machines. My problem when meeting a steam tank is that I have to fire at it, thereby using up most of my anti-armour, leaving me little protection against knights/giants. With 4 chukkas, I do not have to choose between an exposed knight flank and the steam tank. I can take good shots when the opportunity arises and still fire at the steam tank.

/Fredmans

Harwammer
02-10-2008, 17:00
If you want to hit flanks with your wolves to remove rank bonus, but fear too many will be killed, give them a champion and set them up them 1 wide, 5 deep for the charge.

This will make them wheel better and only the champion targetable :)

Edit:
you can have a hero (1 hit wonder optional) in this unit too and have them 2 wide, 3 deep if you worry about the length of the unit getting in the way.

WhiteKnight
02-10-2008, 17:13
Harwammer's right. And don't bother with spears, you just need them to negate ranks and flank.

bubbathebrute
02-10-2008, 17:53
The thing with a steam tank is after you do that first wound their effectiveness is significantly lowered. Each additional wound just adds to that. An added advantage to playing 4 spear chukkas instead of 2 chukkas and one other machine against empire is that empire cannons are amazing at taking out other warmachines. With their d6 wounds, if a warmachine is hit then it is more then likely going to be destroyed. Empire also doesnt have many throw away units to release fanatics. Fanatics wont do too much damage to it, but like mentioned above, every extra wound counts. I often find that opponents use steam points like this (Wounds left/steam points used): 10/4-5, 9/4, 8/3, 7/3-2. As you can see, just taking off those first 2 wounds is important and crippling. Ive seen a lot of people just let their steamtank sit there and do nothing as it gets to half wounds as moving it is too risky and they dont want to give away that many victory points. Foot of gork and arguably (i dont remember what the consensus was) mork wants ya can also really help slow down the tank.

For my flank protection, as mentioned above, fanatics, giants and hoppers protect my flank. Fanatics are self explanatory and hoppers if they can get the charge off can do a lot of damage to knights. move the hoppers up through terrain and threaten their flank. With the combination of hoppers and fast cav you can set up a lot of traps or speed bumps for the knights. With two giants you can set them up in a separated v formation so if he was to charge one then the other one will get the flank/rear charge on your turn. I also recommend a lot of magic. foot of gork can do a number on knights, gaze of gork and the other magic missile has the potential to do a wound or two, and gork will fix it can help lessen their threat level.

Storak
02-10-2008, 22:05
The thing with a steam tank is after you do that first wound their effectiveness is significantly lowered. Each additional wound just adds to that. An added advantage to playing 4 spear chukkas instead of 2 chukkas and one other machine against empire is that empire cannons are amazing at taking out other warmachines. With their d6 wounds, if a warmachine is hit then it is more then likely going to be destroyed. Empire also doesnt have many throw away units to release fanatics. Fanatics wont do too much damage to it, but like mentioned above, every extra wound counts. I often find that opponents use steam points like this (Wounds left/steam points used): 10/4-5, 9/4, 8/3, 7/3-2. As you can see, just taking off those first 2 wounds is important and crippling. Ive seen a lot of people just let their steamtank sit there and do nothing as it gets to half wounds as moving it is too risky and they dont want to give away that many victory points. Foot of gork and arguably (i dont remember what the consensus was) mork wants ya can also really help slow down the tank. .

detachments are great for fanatic release.

i have some serious doubts that an O&G army can win a shooty empire army fielding a single tank, unless it brings some serious anti-tank weapon. (full artillery, grimgor, the cleava, or a lucky spell or giant)

the tank should move directly ahead into the middle of the orc army. it will force terror tests, march block the centre, trigger fanatics and completely mess up the "we ll show em" effect of animosity (it is a large target and can be seen from the last rank of a unit)

even when you manage to immobilise it, it will still block 3+ units for 2+ turns. and if it gets into close combat, you can t shoot it any longer.

Malorian
02-10-2008, 22:22
That could actually be the trick: Get into combat with it. Hit it from all sides. Get all your main blocks in combat (should be able to get four in with two in the front and one on either flank). Then hold back with everything else.

Your opponent will have nothing to shoot while you slowly work the stank down. You'll most likely end up in a tie and eventually you opponent will get bored and stop fielding a stank gunline.

EvC
03-10-2008, 00:09
I did that to a Steam Tank once. My opponent's response? Wait for it to get down to one wound... and then BANG, overload the engines and let rip with all your juicy firepower, cannons, etc. in the shooting phase that same turn. Mind you, that was the winner of the GT I was at, so not every opponent will be so smart ;)

Storak
03-10-2008, 02:59
That could actually be the trick: Get into combat with it. Hit it from all sides. Get all your main blocks in combat (should be able to get four in with two in the front and one on either flank). Then hold back with everything else.

Your opponent will have nothing to shoot while you slowly work the stank down. You'll most likely end up in a tie and eventually you opponent will get bored and stop fielding a stank gunline.

it takes 36 strength 3 or 4 attacks, to do a single wound to the tank. i don t think it makes a lot of sense, to send in more troops.

those troops open their flank or rear to the enemy, and are stuck in one huge combat, without dealing damage. pretty risky, when the empire brought along a combat unit..

and there will be some other troops left, that he can concentrate fire on. he gets points for killing them, while it is unclear whether your troops (3 units!) will get a single one out of the tank.

Malorian
03-10-2008, 05:34
If the empire has combat units it's a different story. This would be for a stank gunline.

Embalmed
03-10-2008, 09:26
I vote for Spear chukkas vs a stank, you get 10 for the same cost ;) they should have little trouble getting LOS to it +1 to hit, no AS, D3 wounds, looks like a turkey shoot.

Avian
03-10-2008, 15:06
Realistically, if you try to bring a Steam Tank down with Orc Boyz in combat you are going to have that unit stuck there until the end of the battle unless it has something like 1 wound left when you charge. Even against a gunline it's worse than pointless as you have just let those units you have that can really waltz through handgunner units get tied up against something they really can't dent.

IF the Steam Tank is badly damaged and you just want to tie it up, you can throw in ONE ranked unit (preferably Goblins) and it's probably not going anywhere, but you can't swarm a Tank with medium infantry and hope to do anything worthwhile.

Malorian
03-10-2008, 15:58
I think people are still missing my point.

You aren't swarming the tank to kill it (although eventually you will), you are getting into protracted combat so that the gunline has nothing to shoot.

The battle ends as a draw and after a few boring games like that the empire player will get the hint and start using a different list. Meanwhile you've keep the games to ties rather than losses.

Avian
03-10-2008, 16:07
You're kidding, right? Orc Boyz are great against gunline units because of their low cost and T4. Throwing them into combat with a Steam Tank, risking Terror and having them do nothing for the rest of the game is not productive.

If the greenskin army was badly equipped to handle an empire gunline, I could understand your reasoning, but we certainly are not.

Do that "trick" a couple of times and the Empire player will probably bring a one or two of combat detachments and do flank and rear charges on your infantry locked with his Steam Tank. Great win for him, long nose for you.

EvC
03-10-2008, 17:17
What's wrong with one tank anyway? It's only when there are two when it becomes dull- and also when the swamping tactic won't work...

bubbathebrute
03-10-2008, 18:52
Detachments are way too slow to be good at fanatic releasing. By the time they are close enough I will have my units in position to release the fanatics where I want.

Thus far I have found that my night goblin army does well against gun lines. I havent played against many empire armies with them but I have played against a lot of different dwarf players and havent had a problem. I use terrain to protect the giants and hoppers against shooting until the time is right to strike.

And its amazing how much damage 3 squig hoppers can do on their own to a gunline army. Depending on enemy deployment, I have often times bomb rushed both hopper units straight up the middle. Their itp and skirmish will help protect them long enough to survive two units of thunderers shooting at them. Then the 3-4 left standing can do what they do best, eat. And more shooting at the hoppers is less shooting elsewhere. Like mentioned above, this tactic only works depending on the enemy deployment.

Storak
03-10-2008, 20:36
Detachments are way too slow to be good at fanatic releasing. By the time they are close enough I will have my units in position to release the fanatics where I want.

one or two minimum detachments, advancing against the O&G army will move 16 inch towards you, when they go first. that is enough, especially against animosity prone gobbo units.

those detachments will badly mess up "we ll show em" results as well, btw.



And its amazing how much damage 3 squig hoppers can do on their own to a gunline army. Depending on enemy deployment, I have often times bomb rushed both hopper units straight up the middle. Their itp and skirmish will help protect them long enough to survive two units of thunderers shooting at them. Then the 3-4 left standing can do what they do best, eat. And more shooting at the hoppers is less shooting elsewhere. Like mentioned above, this tactic only works depending on the enemy deployment.

2 units of 10, shooting at the hoppers at close range (they want to charge next turn...), hitting on 4+ killing nearly 7. stand and shoot should kill another solid 2. leaves a single hopper attacking. good luck.

bubbathebrute
03-10-2008, 22:28
one or two minimum detachments, advancing against the O&G army will move 16 inch towards you, when they go first. that is enough, especially against animosity prone gobbo units.
if he is willing to pull enough detachments forward to release all my fanatics and leave his big blocks in the back without detachment support then my giants and other units are more then happy to take advantage of that.



2 units of 10, shooting at the hoppers at close range (they want to charge next turn...), hitting on 4+ killing nearly 7. stand and shoot should kill another solid 2. leaves a single hopper attacking. good luck.
I mentioned both hopper units there ace. You will not get shot before you move since he will be out of range. So on your first move, move 10. If he decides to all target one unit, then long rang + skirmish, hitting on 5+ (thunderers). Wounding on 3+ = about 4. Then your move again. His next turn he will kill about 7 like you mentioned. you should be close enough at this point that he is not going to get stand and shoot. If you are not close enough, then you jump in between them or to the side, then the turn after you charge. Fairly simple. i have used it twice so far with success both times. In one of the games, 3 hoppers took out a unit of thunderers, 2 bolt throwers, and on their way to destroying another unit of thunderers. It helps that hoppers have hatred against dwarfs and almost always get the charge.

Doominator
23-10-2008, 04:50
Okay, a new question for you greenies!:p

I like the idea of a roiling tide of black-hooded gobbos rushing at the enemy, but I wonder if it is really worth it to play a Night Gobbo army?
1. What are the most common armies out there? Is it still VC and Daemons? If so, will I have my butt unmercilessly butchered in almost all battles? If not, will I still have my butt unmercilessly butchered in almost all battles?

2. Is there any useful tricks and tips youse guys can give me? So far, I find the combo of a Wollapa's One Hit Wonda + Tricksey Trinket a very good combo at taking out characters.

3. Do I need to focus on anything in a Night Gobbo army (other than more goblins)?

4. Is it really worth it to collect an Night Gobbo army?:wtf:

I don't aim to win all of my battles, but NG's concern me in their ability to seem "almost too weak" in battles, especially in Daemon/VC dominated games (as everone says). I don't know yet what my local gaming group's choice of armies are yet.

Aldoran
23-10-2008, 08:59
1) That depends on your location, im my area we do not have any VC or DoC players
2) This is nice combo, but do not expect to kill anyone with it(statistically you will hit 1.5 times on charge, and dont forget that you fear most of armies out there)
3) Well, pure NG horde means no common goblins, so you have only 3 units available....
4) Only if you know what you are doing. I play a gobbo army and manage not to loose(mostly draw) 75% of battles.

BigbyWolf
23-10-2008, 13:14
Night Goblin Armies can be quite fun to use, and you'd be best of taking Skarsnik as the general for his extra Ld.

I don't see why a NG army can't take other units of goblins...it's the whole point of a Waaagh, one army marching onwards collecting other tribes as it goes so fluff wise you could do it. Including a unit of trolls and a giant in there give you some added hitting power, which you tend to need.

If you take mainly units of NGs, backed up by Wolf Riders and Spider Riders, a couple of units of squigs, a couple of hoppers and some rares, it's a start.

Doominator
23-10-2008, 22:45
Ah, but on tactics on using large Night Goblin mobs, is it necessary to use baiting and trapping techniques? It just seems necessary with large units (skaven coming to mind).:cool:

Also, is the single-unit troll really viable?:eyebrows:

Malorian
23-10-2008, 22:52
Even though my single troll has failed his ld9 more than should be possible he's still a great cheap and small unit (< US 5) that can be used to block enemy units and/or redirect them to setup counter charges.

I just wish I had another rare open so I could take another one :)

Harwammer
23-10-2008, 23:32
Single trolls are a massive pain!

With LD9 your opponent assumes it will pass its stupidity test next turn. As such, its presence creates a threat which will interupt the opponents movement phase (regardless if it actually is stupid or not in its next turn!).

Night goblins are also a fantastic place to put a BOBB. Cheap enough to justify quell animosity, plus nets make that black orc even tougher! Adding the spirit totem BSB upgrade to a goblin netter unit just makes things even better :D

Anton
28-10-2008, 12:23
Hi. I have a question regarding magic items. I play a Goblin army. What kind of defense would you recommend for a Common Goblin Warboss. I am torn between Warboss Umm's Best Boss 'At and Amulet of Protectyness.

Warboss Umm's Best Boss 'At , together with for example Enchanted Shield, gives a steady, reliable Ward and Armour save. Amulet of Protectyness is potentially great, depending on what you face. What do you think is the better?

Avian
28-10-2008, 16:56
I just go with the Best Boss 'At and a great weapon for my gobbo warboss and then I try to keep him out of too much trouble.

Malorian
28-10-2008, 17:17
In my for fun night goblin army I give my general the amulet of protectyness and I've been disappointed every time. It's a fun item, but you'd be better off taking something that you know will be there when you need it.

Anton
28-10-2008, 18:30
Hmm, thanks for the replies. You confirm my suspicions; Warboss Umm's Best Boss 'At is probably a better choice due to its reliability. I'll have try the Amulet of Protectyness out a bit before I rule it out, though. Personal experience is always best. :)

Avian
28-10-2008, 18:37
There is a reason why the Amulet is cheaper. If you know you are going up against Daemons or Bretonnia and you can't get a good armour save anyway, it can be worth it, but otherwise I'd just pass. When I've used it I've always ended up against S5+ guys with little armour. "Ha, ha, I get your armour save, which you are strong enough to negate. Ahem..."

Anton
28-10-2008, 18:59
Heh, that's only to be expected when picking such an item, I suppose. :)

HolyVanguard
30-10-2008, 04:14
I am very tempted to start an Orcs and Goblins army. Unfortunatly I have never faced one, however reading through this thread has provided me with much entertainment and amusement, and now a certain fondness for the green buggers. :D

I was wondering if it was possible to create an O&G army without any Warmachines, or are say, Spear Chuckas for example, generally mandatory?

bubbathebrute
30-10-2008, 07:25
I like to use the Amulet of Protectyness just because when it works well, it really works well and its in the spirit of the goblins. It really is a lot of fun when you are up against a dwarf lord and neither of you can do a wound to each other. But my warboss hardly sees combat and does so on his choosing.

Though over all the at' well be more beneficial in most combat situations and I recommend that over the amulet for better all around use.

Along with the ammy, I like to give my warboss the akkrit axe and gnashers. So if I am caught up in combat with someone with a good armor save then I perhaps have the chance to negate it with the axe raising that possibility. Not the best use of points for a warboss whos only purpose is to spread leadership, but there is no better feeling then when one of the many tricks that gobblins have up their sleeves actually works.

BigbyWolf
30-10-2008, 12:32
I am very tempted to start an Orcs and Goblins army. Unfortunatly I have never faced one, however reading through this thread has provided me with much entertainment and amusement, and now a certain fondness for the green buggers. :D

I was wondering if it was possible to create an O&G army without any Warmachines, or are say, Spear Chuckas for example, generally mandatory?

Nothing is mandatory for O&G- you can take whatever you want as long as it's within basic army build rules, eg 3+ core etc

Avian
30-10-2008, 14:47
I was wondering if it was possible to create an O&G army without any Warmachines, or are say, Spear Chuckas for example, generally mandatory?
I wouldn't say that they are mandatory, but most greenskin players will recommend them highly, simply because it lets you deal with a lot of units that other greenies have trouble with and because they are effective against pretty much any army you'll face.

That being said, my cavalry themed list went without any sort of war machine and still managed (or, rather, the things they struggled against would have been problematic even with a pair of spear chukkas ;)).

Vivi
04-11-2008, 00:58
Don't usually pop over to Warseer, but this caught my eye (the thread), anyway, something I've been tinkering with ...

Goblin Battle Standard Bearer with the Waaagh Banner mounted on a Wolf Chariot. 19-24" charge sure catchs people out.

(well, at least I'd think it would, haven't actually tried it out and not 100% sure it's legal)

Urgat
04-11-2008, 08:17
Yes, it probably would... wouldn't do much damage or anything, though...
It would be good for catching (fragile, in each case, no flamer or hellcanon) skirmishers in the open, lone characters or warmachines, I suppose.

polobuch
13-11-2008, 11:10
Hullo to all, I am one of theses guys who only ever reads forums, and as we are on the subject of Green skins and that quiet clearly most of you are experts on the matter, I do have some questions.

I used to be a very good player and played dwarfs, WE and HE, all armies where very small, quick (slayer dwarfs) and elitist. But I now have had the urge to make a horde army, and realy meen horde.

Orcs are good, very good for the just 5 points. so I was thinking to have in my little war band:
8*25 orcs with full command and 2*30 orcs with full commande, one hero and one battle standard bearer.

Now I can see that one could be quiet septical, but if you where facing this army you are looking at over 260 orcs, and I can realy take up the entire 72'' of the deployment zone. true I will get booed in the magic phase but realy...so what? you killed 15 orcs (In a HE phase quite a good ratio) but who cares, in the end I recon I can bring down on you the odd 150 orcs with bad temper to boot.

or am I just dreaming? have any one of you ever tried such a way of war? what would your 1st reaction be if ever you saw this at a tournament. Don't forget I was once a (very?) combo orientated guy, but now fluff is more fun, and only core as orcs can only be fun!

Polo

Fredmans
13-11-2008, 12:35
In the beginning, I sometimes succumbed to your idea, mostly because I wanted a horde, and used to run 8 infantry blocks, covering the entire board, and then some. There are two major problems with this strategy.

First, it depends on how much terrain you use to play with on your battle field. If you play over open ground, it is not as much of a problem as when your large regiments will have to navigate through terrain.

Second, the more blocks you field, the bigger the Animosity factor will be. In the current edition, Animosity can cause your units to wheel in front of each other, causing absolute mayhem to your battle plan.

Nowadays, more accustomed to O&G temper, I field 5 blocks in a 2000 points game, of which three are immune to Animosity (two black orc bosses and a unit of black orcs). That reduces the element of chance to a manageable level.

/Fredmans

Avian
13-11-2008, 13:52
in the end I recon I can bring down on you the odd 150 orcs with bad temper to boot.
I'm not sure why that should work in the long run. You have a lot of medium infantry and that's it. There are a lot of units out there that you simply can't beat with meadium infantry alone. Sure, it might work against a gunline (or some gunlines, at least), but I don't think you will do very well against any sort of elite unit.

It's (generally) not just about getting across the table with a decent number of guys, it is winning the combats on the other side of the table that gains you VPs and medium infantry are not by themselves good at racking up VPs.

selone
04-12-2008, 02:36
As a returning WFB player and a new Orcs and Goblins player I'm very glad to have found and read this thread. Especial thanks to avian for his excellent tactics website.
If anyone's interested heres my introduction thread-
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=173411
and here is my first ever 7th edition army list-
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=173446

Orge_ladd
13-12-2008, 22:47
i use a pure goblin army, and have SO many goblins and night goblins aswell as a huge block of wolf riders and a few spider riders, i have a doom diver ( under construction..) and 2 spear chukkas aswell.. and so far i have always been able to field at least 160 models... in under a thousand points.. is that a good thing.. seeing as its all goblins, a large portion of it is archers..

i need help making sure i can do it right.. anyone got any tips for a goblin horder of over 300 models in abouta 2000 point game?

Chicago Slim
14-12-2008, 15:09
There is a reason why the Amulet is cheaper. If you know you are going up against Daemons or Bretonnia and you can't get a good armour save anyway, it can be worth it, but otherwise I'd just pass. When I've used it I've always ended up against S5+ guys with little armour. "Ha, ha, I get your armour save, which you are strong enough to negate. Ahem..."

On the other hand, when the Masque (with her 3+ ward save) comes wizard-hunting, it's a truly excellent feeling.

"Oh, ah! You've just charged 19", into my night goblin great shaman, you say? Well, of course I missed my Fear test, but I'm in a big unit, so we'll just need 6s to hit. And that's FIVE attacks you have? Well, at least you missed ONE of them! Oh, yes, I do manage to be Toughness 4, at least. Still, 3 wounds, you say? Bit lucky on your part, eh? Good thing I'll be taking your 3+ ward save! Ah, there, see, not a scratch. Oh, and did I happen to mention that I have 4 points of static combat resolution from this 60 point unit I'm standing in? So, let's see... that'd be four for me, and, I'm afraid to say, nothing for you. Go away, please."

Orge_ladd
16-12-2008, 23:01
i've JUST got myself a few orcs to add to the mic of my goblin army, amd i right in saying that a good "balance" for o&g would be.. for ever 2 units of orcs, 3 units of goblins should be taken?

Walls
17-12-2008, 00:10
I have a question...

Is a big boyz army viable? I was thinking it'd be a Grimgor led army. His unit of Immortulz, buncha black orcs, buncha boyz (Big 'Uns?). Black Orc heroes. Maybe a giant or two.

All boyz o' doom n' desrukshun.

longshot007
17-12-2008, 02:56
Im building the orcs in my army right now. Im not sure how i should equip them. For now I have 2 squads of 25 (24 + boss in one of them). should I go shields or 2 hand weapons? also how useful would the upgrades such as muscians standards and bosses be in these squads?

Orge_ladd
21-12-2008, 01:40
so far my orcs with shields have done wonders, so i think they better with shields, +1 attack isn't work it. and if you do want it i would take savage orcs instead as they get frenzy, and a 6+ ward save.. and can still give em shields/AHW so yeah..

Mazdug
21-12-2008, 03:51
I have to say, if it wheren't for the vast number of ymca orcs I managed to scrounge from other players, I would have assembled all my boyz units with shields. As it is, I've got over a hundred of the blighters swingin' a choppa in each hand, and they haven't failed me that badly (well, not because of the equipment choice atleast). I play mostly against dwarves and empire though, so the shields don't really provide me any greater survivability during the slow trudge through the lead storm that those armies tend to hide behind. The real strenght in my mind of shield orcs is the number of extra boys (or gobbos) you can buy with the extra points saved on the cheaper shield option. so for roughly the same cost as a unit of 25 xtra choppa boys, you can have 30 shield toting lads (which is very helpful if you keep a BlOrc hero in every large boyz unit, because it ups the required casualty number to panic when he goes ape and beats them into line to avoid a squable).

w3rm
15-01-2009, 22:00
First off I would like to say: Avian, you are a god *bows down while heavenly green light comes down from the sky so I may not look upon Avian's face for he is to godly*. But i am a big fan of this thread and I finally read all of it. I have 1k NG but got sick of them running away so now i just bought 50 orcs a chariot and 14 arrer boyz and 2 shamans and 2 bosses! so yeah other than that i would like to know is it worth taking 8 sav orc boar boy big unz with spear and shield?

w3rm
15-01-2009, 22:00
About to goy play TK with my bro ANY suggestions?

Malorian
15-01-2009, 22:04
"i would like to know is it worth taking 8 sav orc boar boy big unz with spear and shield?"
"About to goy play TK with my bro ANY suggestions?"

Against TK they will be great. You don't have to worry about them being baited since TK can't flee, and they also don't need to test for fear. Just charge in and kill :)

w3rm
15-01-2009, 23:38
I dont actually have them yet. I was wondering if SOBBBU(wow long acronym) are viable. And i crushed him. At his turn on turn 5 he had his liche priest and his prince. In his defence its only his 2nd time playing with that army.

Harwammer
16-01-2009, 01:04
6 SOBBBUs are easy points for enemy magic/shooting.

Include a giant or two to distact enemy projectiles from your 25 (30 with Nogg's) str 5 attacks unit.

At this stage you'll have no points left for the rest of your army but /shrug :D

neXus6
16-01-2009, 02:32
6 SoBBBUs are easy points for enemy magic and shooting if you put them in the middle of a board with no terrain and take no magical defence. ;)

If you actually play the game properly and use terrain and screening units like you should they are fine.

Harwammer
16-01-2009, 02:45
what if they get foot of gorked? There's plenty of non-LoS damage in the game :(

And then there's hills :D

Da_Greeniest
16-01-2009, 15:32
I have interpreted the rules for Frenzy and the Waagh banner to be incompatible. Am I wrong? Frenzied units does not declare charges, but measure distances to see if they are forced to charge. The Waagh banner, on frenzied troops, could thus only be used to increase the charge distance in case the enemy flees. My interpretation sucks, though, because savage orc big un boarboyz is the ONE unit that I would like to give the Waagh banner.

/Fredmans

Frenzied units can still declare a charge. If they choose not to declare a charge, you still have to measure to see if they were in range to charge.

In a lot of cases it's better to do the latter, but if you have the Waagh! Banner, you can still declare a charge.

neXus6
16-01-2009, 17:58
what if they get foot of gorked? There's plenty of non-LoS damage in the game :(

And then there's hills :D

Well yeah, but they can't shoot over forests, you should have some magical defence, and the best defence of all target saturation. Besides the fact that it doesn't matter if a scroll caddy/staff of stealin caddy gets killed turn 3 or 4 if you've got boar boys, a giant, maybe a wyvern, other chariots, big block units...your enemy is going to have a hard time deciding what to attack never mind anything else. :D

Nuada
16-01-2009, 18:45
14 arrer boyz and 2 shamans and 2 bosses!

I'm a big fan of orc arrer boyz. Bargain for 6 points. Try using them against an army that likes to sit on a hill with archers, with another unit protecting them at the bottom of the hill (eg. High Elves)

What i do is put the arrer boyz in a unit of 20, 5 wide and 4 deep. Move a bit on your first turn and shoot. In a turn you haven't moved you need 5's to hit and 4's to wound. The elves need 4's to hit and 5's to wound.

Lets say both units have lgt armour. The unit of 20 orcs costs 120 points, for 120 points he can have only 10 archers. Orcs have 20 shots, elves have 10 shots

As usual things can go wrong in an orc army (animosity etc) :D

w3rm
17-01-2009, 17:26
I know. Alot of people are hatin' on Arrer Boyz but they are sooooo good. 6 pts for choppa, light armour and a bow? That is very nice. But i use them like little detachments form my larger boy units to give supporting fire and help negate ranks.

w3rm
17-01-2009, 17:31
I'd also like to talk about magic banners. They have been slightly covered in bits and pieces but we really need to talk about them in detail. The only good ones IMO are Noggs, The Waaagh Banner, and Morks spirit totem. Although Grotts might be nice to give to a Big 'un or black orc unit. That way to all the little 'uns around them would get another BSB basicly. Spider banner is to expensive and bad moon is pretty worthless to 5 leadership night gobbos. And as usual war banner is great for static res.

Elays
17-01-2009, 23:09
I've read a lot of debate about shields vs xtra choppas, and as I'm starting orcs this has been very helpful. Judging from your advice I think I'm likely to run shield units with savage orcs instead of xtra choppas. However, throughout the thread I have seen almost no mention of orc boys armed with spears. Why is this? Is there some universal truth about spears being bad that I'm unaware of?

w3rm
17-01-2009, 23:13
Guess people would rather pay 7 pts for extra choppa then 7 points for spear and shield. I know some people use them on savage orcs for the might 20 attacks(not to mention a bsb in there with Nogg's) I really don't have a problem with spears on gobbos with them being so cheap that the +1 save isn't really worth it but with orcs definitely. I would like to run a unit of savage orcs with spears and a bsb with Nogg's. Imagine 30 Attacks *drool*

w3rm
17-01-2009, 23:17
God that really make me wanna get a nice sized unit of savage orcs!

Nuada
18-01-2009, 00:03
I would like to run a unit of savage orcs with spears and a bsb with Nogg's. Imagine 30 Attacks *drool*

Do you mean 20 attacks, with 5 wide and no boss?

Spears are ok, but i prefer 3 units of savage orcs all with additional choppas and a boss. Spears are better on round 2 onwards.

I've used spears once or twice with savage orcs. What usually happens is the first round they don't win the combat, and lose their frenzy. The spear is a loss of one strength, my savage orcs almost always charge (O&G have lots of items/spells/rules to allow them extra movement)

So, if you have them 5 wide and charge thats only 11 str3 attacks with spears, and it's 16 attacks str4 with additional choppa's. Both of these examples are for the first round

Spears can be good if you think you'll be charged by a fast unit or you're defensive. You could have them 6 wide, with a boss and have 25 attacks (but it's -2 attacks for every orc that dies from the chargers) Fairly good v's HEs

w3rm
18-01-2009, 03:26
Um 5 wide x 2= 10+ extra rank=20+noggs banner of butchery=30...... That will mess up pretty much anything it comes across except maybe a skaven or gnoblar unit.

Djekar
18-01-2009, 08:48
I think there is a lot of merit to having spears on your Savages, because often your boyz will end up recieving the charge thanks to M4 and Animosity. However, because they are frenzied, they are able to be baited, which can lead to them being charged in the rear/flank which means you paid the points for spears for nothing (at least in that combat). I find small units with extra choppas a bit better, because I normally get baited into high SCR units with them, or catch a bait and flee flank charge.

~ Harlequin

w3rm
18-01-2009, 15:11
You could use a missile screen of Goblins or Snotlings. A lot of people don't realize they are not Small nor are they swarms. They are bases and DO block line of sight and do not take extra wounds for losing combat.

wingedserpant
18-01-2009, 21:50
You could use a missile screen of Goblins or Snotlings. A lot of people don't realize they are not Small nor are they swarms. They are bases and DO block line of sight and do not take extra wounds for losing combat.

I can see that working in certain situations. If the goblins get charged you can flee and there is a very good chance that can leave the orc player in a good position to charge. On the other hand alot of shooting units will be on hills and it could lead to heavy caverly merely redirecting into your orcs. I wouldn't bother. A failed animosity test will also ruin your battle line.

The snotlings can't flee though if I remember correctly so are quite useless to be honest.

The best way to prevent damage from shooting is to just take larger units. I never take less than 30 orcs in a unit. I've been told to take less but if orcs lose that rank bonus...

w3rm
19-01-2009, 00:56
Snotlings can flees as they are not Unbreakable Swarms as I said above.

Harwammer
19-01-2009, 01:12
Immune to psychology?

I'm pretty sure they are; ITP makes you immune to fear/terror/panic at the cost of not being able to flee (except break tests).

w3rm
19-01-2009, 01:29
Snap your right! Grrrrrr......

Shamfrit
19-01-2009, 01:46
25 is the optimimum unit size, if you have 5 units at 25 instead of 5 at 30, you can take 6 at 25 instead, that's all dependant on you having the models in order to do this of course, but 25 allows you to lose 6 models before starting to lose your rank bonus, which is enough to maintain a wave of shooting; not to mention people seem to go for your largest units first; knowing that they're going to get tied up by them in combat, unless they're using hammers to pick at your lines.

Alternatively, due to the smaller base size, 30 Night Goblins, banner, musician, nets, can really hold up a standard rank and fule unit for a long time indeed.

Long enough for your reinforcements to arrive at least...unless they decide to bash one another instead. Either way, dem's da mobz rules!

fishound7
19-01-2009, 01:48
so can savage orc big uns take a magic banner. In the O&G book it doesn't state that they can. But it states in the Orc boyz section that any unit of big un's can take standard of 50 points which kinda makes me believe that i could. Please clarify.

Now if they could.
A unit of 10 or 15 used as a support unit could take the banner of butchery plus extra choppa's for 4 attacks each on the first turn of combat. Thats assuming only 5 wide 20 attacks str 5. for only (if a unit of 10) 165 points. And this unit wouldn't be causing panic to others due to frenzy. Also this unit probably should be screened maybe with 2 units of snotlings. But if you combine this with all the other nasties that the O&G can bring its as good a shot as any to get through. I'm a firm believer that you need to bring in as many nasties as you can because the enemy can't kill them all so......

Tell me what you think if its even possibly and if not i still think a unit of 10 savage orcs as a support unit is still pretty kick ass. Even as big unz.

w3rm
19-01-2009, 14:42
Yea thats pretty much what I was talking about earlier with the Savage orcs....

maze ironheart
19-01-2009, 15:08
I have a question as a fellow orc player when my BSB is in a unit of 20 black orcs which is 5 across dose the unit get 3 ranks or 2.

Mazdug
19-01-2009, 16:19
I have a question as a fellow orc player when my BSB is in a unit of 20 black orcs which is 5 across dose the unit get 3 ranks or 2.

3 Ranks until you take two casualties. It works like this

XXXXS<==front rank, no bonus for ranks. S is standard Bearer
XXXXX <==second complete rank, +1 to combat resolution
XXXXX <==third complete rank, +1 to combat resolution
XXXXX <==fourth complete rank +1 to combat resolution
X <==
for a grand total of +3 to combat resolution. However once you take two casualties, it becomes this.

XXXXS <==front rank, no bonus for ranks.
XXXXX <==second complete rank, +1 to combat resolution
XXXXX <==third complete rank, +1 to combat resolution
XXXX <==fourth rank incomplete, no bonus.

I hope that helps.

wingedserpant
19-01-2009, 19:47
25 is the optimimum unit size, if you have 5 units at 25 instead of 5 at 30, you can take 6 at 25 instead, that's all dependant on you having the models in order to do this of course, but 25 allows you to lose 6 models before starting to lose your rank bonus, which is enough to maintain a wave of shooting; not to mention people seem to go for your largest units first; knowing that they're going to get tied up by them in combat, unless they're using hammers to pick at your lines.

Alternatively, due to the smaller base size, 30 Night Goblins, banner, musician, nets, can really hold up a standard rank and fule unit for a long time indeed.

Long enough for your reinforcements to arrive at least...unless they decide to bash one another instead. Either way, dem's da mobz rules!

I however take black orc characters and units of night goblins so I can end up damaging my own units quite abit. At 30 you can afford to take six wounds without even taking a panic test. You can also extend your frontage so you get more attacks.

maze ironheart
20-01-2009, 10:17
3 Ranks until you take two casualties. It works like this

XXXXS<==front rank, no bonus for ranks. S is standard Bearer
XXXXX <==second complete rank, +1 to combat resolution
XXXXX <==third complete rank, +1 to combat resolution
XXXXX <==fourth complete rank +1 to combat resolution
X <==
for a grand total of +3 to combat resolution. However once you take two casualties, it becomes this.

XXXXS <==front rank, no bonus for ranks.
XXXXX <==second complete rank, +1 to combat resolution
XXXXX <==third complete rank, +1 to combat resolution
XXXX <==fourth rank incomplete, no bonus.

I hope that helps.

Sorry forgot to put he's on a boar sorry just need to know would I still get 3 ranks.

Mazdug
20-01-2009, 16:23
Sorry forgot to put he's on a boar sorry just need to know would I still get 3 ranks.

Yes, you still get 3 ranks, Cavalry models are Unit Stegth 2, so he also counts as 2 models for the purpose of outnumbering. So the unit would now look like this (where X is an standard troop, and S is the standard bearer).

XXXXS <===first rank, command goes here)
XXXXS <===second rank, +1 to combat res)
XXXXX <===third rank, another +1 to combat res)
XXXXX <===fourth rank, a final +1 to combat res)
XX <===Lollygaggers and Ninnys, worth nothing :D )

you will get the rank bonus for every complete rank after the first, up to a total rank bonus of +3, so with this set up you would have the full +3 rank bonus until you took 3 casualties, then it would drop to +2.

Does that clear it all up for you?

Storak
20-01-2009, 17:31
my typical opponents (funny, daemons..) bring shooting (!!!) that reduce 25 strong units (including char on a boar) to basically nothing in two turns...

maze ironheart
21-01-2009, 12:10
Yes, you still get 3 ranks, Cavalry models are Unit Stegth 2, so he also counts as 2 models for the purpose of outnumbering. So the unit would now look like this (where X is an standard troop, and S is the standard bearer).

XXXXS <===first rank, command goes here)
XXXXS <===second rank, +1 to combat res)
XXXXX <===third rank, another +1 to combat res)
XXXXX <===fourth rank, a final +1 to combat res)
XX <===Lollygaggers and Ninnys, worth nothing :D )

you will get the rank bonus for every complete rank after the first, up to a total rank bonus of +3, so with this set up you would have the full +3 rank bonus until you took 3 casualties, then it would drop to +2.

Does that clear it all up for you?

yeah thanks had an idea for a list thanks to avians tactica now my BSB won't be vunrable to cheap shots.

w3rm
21-01-2009, 23:01
Anyone here ever try Gigantic Spider? It doesn't really seem great to me.

Braad
22-01-2009, 09:08
I haven't yet. Still need to buy the model, but I plan to do so sometime.

Well, what is great? It is not an overly powerfull mount, but its also not that expensive. As many O&G things are. They are allowed for hero level characters, which could allow for nice things (spider army, anyone? 4 of those beasties...). The wall-crawler rule allows for some possibilities in terrain-heavy games, maybe against woodelves.

On one hand its a bit of a shame they don't do fear, but on the other hand, since also heroes can take them, that would have been maybe a bit too much.

But their main use: cool model for any army, especially in a goblin horde!

Fredmans
22-01-2009, 10:43
I will use the giant spider in a friendly 1500 tournament this weekend. I will use it as a powerful, yet fragile spider rider unit, since I could not fit Squig Hoppers or Spider Riders into the list. I am doubtful about its use in bigger games, where you really need those hero slots. If all goblin hero-armies would give you extra heroes, like they used to, I would use it a lot more. I am thinking about fielding it with Wollopa's and Guzzla's Battle Brew. Re-rolls and extra attacks could come in handy for that one strike. With my usual luck with Guzzla's, I will become stupid at least once, but I thought I would give it a try.

/Fredmans

Storak
22-01-2009, 13:57
On one hand its a bit of a shame they don't do fear, but on the other hand, since also heroes can take them, that would have been maybe a bit too much.

i strongly disagree. this is obviously an error. one of those they wont admit.

gigantic spider not causing fear? insane!

Ld 7 gobbo hero on his own? having to take fear tests? insane.

it wouldn t been taken often, even if it was causing terror!

Fredmans
22-01-2009, 14:20
All valid points, Storak, it is just that I have a nice Shelob conversion for this one, so it is a shame I never use it. As for low Ld, I will try to keep it within the Ld bubble of the general to get off that charge. If it should happen to get frenzy, I can use it more freely.

/Fredmans

Braad
22-01-2009, 18:27
Thing is, when I take 4 gobbo's bosses on 4 spiders that cause fear, that's suddenly a lot of fear... Maybe they could have done it a bit different:
Warbosses get a giant spider (40mm base) with fear
Big Bosses get a normal spider (cav base) without fear

But since the giant squig also doesn't cause fear, I doubt that they made any error. Otherwise I would think they both deserved to cause fear.

And a Ld 7 gobbo that has to take fear tests? Quite normal I think. Gobbo's are not courageous enemy-slayers, they remain cowards. Even the bosses to some extent.

Peril
22-01-2009, 18:28
I still like the Giant Spider as a war machine hunter or lone mage hunter. I take a Warboss on a wyvern so if I need LD I will set up the charge so that he is within 12" of the general.

bluemeenie
30-01-2009, 02:26
Maybe this has been discussed or asked already here..but anyone know if they will give Savage orcs there skirmish back? It is kinda horrible that the O&G have no skirmish units what so ever...really a disadvantage IMO>

Gharof von Carstein
30-01-2009, 07:29
skirmish savage orcs would suck greatly. i love them the way they are now. they should get point reduction tho.

Kaos
30-01-2009, 07:45
Maybe this has been discussed or asked already here..but anyone know if they will give Savage orcs there skirmish back? It is kinda horrible that the O&G have no skirmish units what so ever...really a disadvantage IMO>

Squigghoppers? And you got spiderriders to run trough terrain too. Or what is it that you want to do with skirmishing savage orcs? What you will get with such a unit is a unit that is easy to lure into any direction instead of just one.

Djekar
30-01-2009, 07:51
More randomness in the O&G list of course. It's way to predictable now. :P

~Rocket

w3rm
01-02-2009, 17:57
I agree with Djekar :)

Braad
03-02-2009, 22:44
Wasn't it here that someone noticed that casualties from animosity/WAAAGH could cause a panic test?

Well, here's something we can all learn from!

I just had a game, 2000pts against lizardmen. At a certain moment I decide to call the WAAAGH, to hopefully get 3 blocks of boyz close enough to charge.
First roll was for my 10 nicely converted and quite new (2nd battle with them) boar boyz. With 1 shot to death, still 9 standing. So, I roll a 1 on the WAAAGH roll, and then a 4. 4 gone... resulting in a panic test, which I utterly fail by rolling 11. Then on the roll of 16 for fleeing, like 1 to high, they escape from the board...

Ow, and the boyz didn't make their charges.

Well, its not that I'm frustrated about it or anything, it was actually quite funny to see it happen. I just found it such an odd situation that I thought it would be nice to share.

Got to admit, this was the first time ever I actually rolled a 1 on the WAAAGH, and I call it at least 60-70% of my games.

Sifal
03-02-2009, 23:50
hello. I am thinking of starting an Orc and Goblin army, mainly because I like the fluff and i really want to convert/paint them. From the playing point of view I know they are considered a bit weak but I'm fairly sure I can squeeze some playability out of them for all games except High-end tournament games (I'll use VC for these). So my question is can I make an orc and goblin army decent but have it 90% mounted? I'm thinking:

Blorc warboss, magic items, armour, boar.
Blorc big boss with the maads map for scouting or one hit wunda gobbo on wolf.
level 2 shaman of some sort with anti-magic.
a BSB of some sort maybe in a chariot so it doesn't take up a special slot.

9 boar boys (i don't like them but savage do a lot more damage? with banner of butchery.
squig hoppers
lots and lots of wolf riders including a unit of 15 with shields
giant
troll(s)
extra boar chariot
maybe 2 spear chuckas.

I guess generally i want a decent sized unit of boar boys with lord as centre punch with screening and combat wolf riders and other fast hitty stuff. I want to avoid blocks of troops because they just seem bleh......

any thoughts appreciated.

Nuada
04-02-2009, 08:46
Wasn't it here that someone noticed that casualties from animosity/WAAAGH could cause a panic test?.

Yeah, that was me :) I remember at the time you said you never roll 1's when you declare the waaagh. Hehe looks like i jinxed your dice rolling ........ good luck next time though :D

Nuada
04-02-2009, 09:57
So my question is can I make an orc and goblin army decent but have it 90% mounted?

I don't have an all cavalry O&G army, but i do use most of the units you've got on your list. I'll give a positive reply, rather than preach to you why i like big units :)

The list you've got is thin on numbers for O&G, so enemy shooting and magic will cause you a headache. Shamans with scrolls will help. Maybe a goblin shaman in a chariot would add to your theme?
I'd try and keep the cost down of your other units, so you can field more boar boyz. For example, maybe dropping the giant and take some pump wagons instead. 360 charge is great (i never used to like them, but now i've seen the light)

Squig hoppers will work well against light cavalry. Sit them in a wood, and charge without LoS. Spider riders work well with them, if you want your squigs to stay put run them into the back of the spider riders.
Screening can go wrong with O&G, i rarely use that tactic. If your opponent has a hill he shoots over them anyway, and animosity can hold up the rest of your army.

Depends who you're facing. Do you know which armies you're going to be fighting?

Sifal
04-02-2009, 12:39
I don't like complaining about stuff and have never given the rumblings of green skins players much thought until I started thinking about doing an army but my god Mathhew Ward was off the mark with this army book: situation specific items, intense unreliability and crazy points costing!!!

Still Orcs are cool (Kool)!
So I want to put my warboss in with savage orc or normal orc boar boys, should i put him with 5 or 9? 9 savage boar boys big uns with spears and shields is crazy points but i like the idea. I want to pull off a minimalist, fast, elite army (don't start laughing) but it seems difficult when boar boys don't have heavy cavalry class armour and I'll be missing out on the bonuses from having large rnf units.
I'll be facing armies of every flavour, except that at my gaming group people don't play power builds in a friendly setting.

Nuada
04-02-2009, 13:39
crazy points costing!!! So I want to put my warboss in with savage orc or normal orc boar boys.

Yeah, most people i know think boar boyz cost too many points (including me)

If they're clever players they'll lead your savage orc boar boyz around, i'd put your general in a unit of normal boar boyz. You could have Gorbad Ironclaw as your general, never used him, but he seems good. Personally i'd take lots of units of 5, then if one model dies they don't suffer from animosity.

Here's something i've done alot in my recent games, which would help you get into combat asap.... I take 6 units of 5 wolf riders, a BO General, BO BSB, and then as many orc shamans as i can (usually 6 shamans) I give them all power stones, and the ones that get the Waaagh spell cast it with 4d6 (even the level 2's can do that) I'm aiming for irresistible force on the first turn, because i know my opponents usually take around 6 dispel scrolls or more. Obviously this is for fairly big games, not sure how many points you use.

It's risky, orcs can blow up, but so far i've charged in turn 1 most games. Your boar boyz will have to be lucky to do that though, unless the enemy has moved already.
No psychology tests to charge, no stand and fire for your enemy, your whole army moves 2d6", and re-roll all your attacks. I think it's worth the risk, it's a game winner. You do have to line up your attacks, it's the nearest enemy within LoS, and modify your army selection slightly. For example, no war machines. I take 6 chariots, and 6 pump wagons. High Elves hate them :) Some people don't like magic heavy O&G, but it's up to you.

Braad
04-02-2009, 17:22
One of the most succesfull orc armies I fielded, is actually a fast, mainly mounted one.

I had something like this:
Warboss on wyvern with the screaming sword and more
Big boss on boar with defensive items (this one goes with the trolls to provide Ld)
Goblin boss on wolf
Shaman on foot (the mounted model was not ready yet)
2x 5 wolf riders fast cav
5 spider riders
20 arrer boyz, to support a bit but mainly a safe haven for the shaman
7 savage boar boyz
2x boar chariot
4 stone trolls
giant

The first thing I did was getting the warboss on wyvern in CC near enemy characters, preferably with low initiative (used them to single handedly wipe out a big temple guard unit with Slann in it).
Second, get everything were it can fight. Pick your fights wisely, make sure you win. Better focus on a few units than divide your hitting power.

I think your list sounds fun, but I would put the lord on wyvern. This is the best army where you can use one, and the generals leadership can easily be flown to where needed most.
The battle standard is a good one, but I would mount that one on a boar, and instead of a gobbo boss, maybe an orc boss in chariot would be nicer. However, if you for some reason expect opponents with chariots, then take the gobbo on wolf with one hit wunda: nearly guaranteed succes.

@ Nuada
AAARGH
It's all your fault!

Sifer
05-02-2009, 14:11
As a newbie to Orc and gobbos I have to say they are fun to play, even with the animosity rolls... or perhaps because of it.

The question I have for the more experience people is this. In a 2250 point army, is it worth taking a unit of 18 BOs or would it be better to put those points towards a rock thrower and another unit of boys, gobbos or night gobbos?

I was also thinking of use this as a character killer:

Goblin Big Boss,
Wolf, Shield, Light armor, Lucky's Dirk, Iron Gnashas, Tricksy Trinket
He has 3 strength 4-7 attacks hitting on 4+ most likely. On top of that KB negates armor and regen saves and Ward saves are nullified by the trinket meaning the character dies easily. All he need is one good wound and the character is toast.

It probably won't work as well as I hope but it would be funny to see a general dying to this guy.

Malorian
05-02-2009, 15:05
I really would stay away from black orc, and if you do take them I'd only do it as a small counter unit.

I don't know how you are getting str 4-7 (maybe you meant the screaming sword) but in general this character killer might do a wound or two, and so will bounce off any lord and is iffy at beast against combat heros.

Personally I find the goblin BB w/ wolf and one hit wunda to be a great chariot/warmachine/support unit assassin, and leave character killing to an orc with the screaming sword.

Sifer
05-02-2009, 15:29
I don't know how you are getting str 4-7 (maybe you meant the screaming sword) but in general this character killer might do a wound or two, and so will bounce off any lord and is iffy at beast against combat heros.

Lucky's Dirk gives you +1 strength for every magical item the opponent has.

Malorian
05-02-2009, 15:36
Ahhh I was thinking of the -3 armor save one. Totally forgot about that item.

Well with three attacks your odds still aren't that good, and characters are so important for the orcs that I wouldn't want to waste one on a suicide mission.

Storak
05-02-2009, 17:10
Goblin Big Boss,
Wolf, Shield, Light armor, Lucky's Dirk, Iron Gnashas, Tricksy Trinket
He has 3 strength 4-7 attacks hitting on 4+ most likely. On top of that KB negates armor and regen saves and Ward saves are nullified by the trinket meaning the character dies easily. All he need is one good wound and the character is toast.

It probably won't work as well as I hope but it would be funny to see a general dying to this guy.

i have read a lot about the suicide gobbo, and it is obviously an idea behind our (horrible) magic item selection.

i have never read a report about his use and i have the impression that most of the people with this idea don t actually play O&G.

as Malorian said, we NEED our characters.

your gobbo would actually be a (sort of) good one, but he seems to carry too many magic items (60 pts?)

the problem with the gobbo start with the fear test. he has to test against Ld7 or remain close to the general against basically EVERY army.

the magic items make him pretty expensive for a suicide char. your suicide gobbo will cost about as much as a DE assassin, or a herald of nurgle/knhorne. this is insane!

his low WS (basically no combat char (and even only few wizards!!!) will have worse WS, allowing for a 3+ hit. and with 1.5 hits and the puny wolf, you will rarely KILL a model with 2 wounds, not even a wizard!

on the other hand, if you fail to kill a champion (who challenges you to protect a caster), and fail to kill him, then many elite champions have a good chance of killing the gobbo!

he will be in trouble after the combat anyway: with fear, most units will AUTOBREAK him.

killing blow is ok, but with only 1.5 hits, it is only a 1 in 4 chance of killing an opponent. (and ward saves still can protect them.)

a quick fix for the O&G magic item list is the following: all O&G characters can use all items (apart from magic mushrooms, perhaps..) and gobbos get the gobbo only items for half price.

Fredmans
05-02-2009, 17:11
Besides, that combination is more than 50 points, plus the Gnashas and the Trinket are both Enchanted items. As Malorian says, a goblin big boss on a wolf with Wollopa's is a cheaper option.

/Fredmans

Nuada
06-02-2009, 00:12
we NEED our characters.

Yeah i agree with that. I've been tempted to take the goblin hero suicide character a few times, but i've never done it.

I was tempted to try out a goblin hero with Tricksey Trinket and Wallopas in a wolf chariot v's bloodletters. A friend of mine has a Khorne DoC army, ....2's to wound with my chariot, no ward saves. It's ok, but even this is very risky, it leaves him stranded. I'd rather take a shaman

Urgat
06-02-2009, 06:48
I've tried it or something along these lines, it sucked. Didn't manage to kill anything. It did charge, but it failed to hit, managed to survive the fight, fled and got overrun.
Lol.

Aflo
06-02-2009, 09:30
i have read a lot about the suicide gobbo, and it is obviously an idea behind our (horrible) magic item selection.

i have never read a report about his use and i have the impression that most of the people with this idea don t actually play O&G.

as Malorian said, we NEED our characters.

your gobbo would actually be a (sort of) good one, but he seems to carry too many magic items (60 pts?)

the problem with the gobbo start with the fear test. he has to test against Ld7 or remain close to the general against basically EVERY army.

the magic items make him pretty expensive for a suicide char. your suicide gobbo will cost about as much as a DE assassin, or a herald of nurgle/knhorne. this is insane!

his low WS (basically no combat char (and even only few wizards!!!) will have worse WS, allowing for a 3+ hit. and with 1.5 hits and the puny wolf, you will rarely KILL a model with 2 wounds, not even a wizard!

on the other hand, if you fail to kill a champion (who challenges you to protect a caster), and fail to kill him, then many elite champions have a good chance of killing the gobbo!

he will be in trouble after the combat anyway: with fear, most units will AUTOBREAK him.

killing blow is ok, but with only 1.5 hits, it is only a 1 in 4 chance of killing an opponent. (and ward saves still can protect them.)

a quick fix for the O&G magic item list is the following: all O&G characters can use all items (apart from magic mushrooms, perhaps..) and gobbos get the gobbo only items for half price.


Quoted for truth.

warlord hack'a
06-02-2009, 10:10
I now made a goblin big boss in wolf chariot with wollopa's. He wioll go out on the flank, where I hope he will be screened from cannon fire. Main reason is to have an extra chariot but with wollopa's I can bust an enemy chariot should it be in the way (and with 18"chargerange I can charge anything). Only rpoblem indeed is fear, but since he is on the flank he will either chase away enemy fast cav (do not generally cause fear), go round the lines for some warmachine chrusing (again most warmachines do not cause fear) and if he does end up in battle it will probalbly to support one of my bigger boclks who are all in the center of the field together with my general, so he can probably by then use the general's ld..

And with US 5 he is a threat to rank bonuses, so the enemy shoudl keep an eye on him.

Will test him out soon, I used to run the surprise wolf guy but did not like him as his 3 attacks were unreliable, but in a chariot you at leats have the chariot to help out.

As for Storak, you are mostly right about the champion protecting the character part, except that when the suicide wolf charges the enemy unit alone he can charge so that he does not touch the enemy champ but does touch the character.. So wollopa's and tricksy trinket combined can indeed be a threat to enemy characters, but killing them outright would be too much to hope. Still damaging them can have an impact on how the enemy uses his costly general..

Fredmans
06-02-2009, 12:01
I, too, have upgraded my goblin big boss from wolf to chariot. We need our special slots, and this is one way of getting in another chariot. I am currently thinking about Wollopa's and Tricksy Trinket in my all-comers, so he can have a go at both chariots or daemons.

/Fredmans

Braad
06-02-2009, 14:13
@ Sifer
The gobbo you posted is not legal. It got two enchanted items (iron gnasha's and tricksy trinket) while only one is allowed.

Personally I'd rather keep my gobbo characters alive and kickin' instead of blowing up.
This is nice if you ask me:
Gobbo big boss on wolf with the one hit wunda, collar of zorga and the kickin' boots. That way, he can once do 4 S10 attacks, which should be lethal for any chariot (my main target with this one) and the collar prevents big beasties from killing him to easy in case he gets hunted by a big character on dinosaur/dragon/whatever. After using the one hit wunda in a single daring assault against a target that is likely to be killed in one hit and then overran, he starts with a harassing role: targeting warmachines, lone wizards maybe, march blocking. But rarely I give them the brimstone bauble.

Storak
06-02-2009, 14:40
As for Storak, you are mostly right about the champion protecting the character part, except that when the suicide wolf charges the enemy unit alone he can charge so that he does not touch the enemy champ but does touch the character.. So wollopa's and tricksy trinket combined can indeed be a threat to enemy characters, but killing them outright would be too much to hope. Still damaging them can have an impact on how the enemy uses his costly general..

i am not sure whether i am playing this right, but placing the mage in a corner of the unit and next to the champion, the gobbo would need to maximise models touched...

i am an orc player. protecting my chars is my most important task...