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therat
25-08-2008, 03:29
A friend of mine recently started dwarfs, his second army after Bretonnia. He is pretty new to the game, so the first couple battles we had I fared well. In the last two I've been pretty hurt by his shooting and anti-magics. I run a combat VC, so I think I'll probably have to just grin and bear the anti-magic, but all those guns... by Nagash, those guns! I usually field 4 Fell Bats to hunt characters/take out war machines, but they couldn't stand against the thunderers' volley. I've tried Carin Wraiths against other armies before, 4 of them led by a Vampire, and they did pretty well, just not nearly as fast as Fell Bats. Against the Dwarfs, however, would they be the better choice? Being a nigh magic-less army, the wraiths should fair well, yes?

I managed to take out two of his cannon, but only because my Black Knights w/vampire made it to them. Even when the two bats that lived made it into combat, they just couldn't wound the dwarfs.

So, in short, should I switch to wraiths, keep the bats, or increase the number of bats? I've thought about replacing the bats with wraiths before, I really like the idea, especially against dwarfs.

Stinkfoot
25-08-2008, 03:50
Keep in mind that if he takes any engineering runes (and he should on those cannons!) they make magical attacks. It sounds like he has at least 2 cannons, so if he runes them both up he should be able to shoot down your wraiths well before you reach him.

If he's running a gunline you'll be hard pressed to beat him without using magic. Take lots of cheap infantry (ghouls are more resistant to shooting than skellies), and fast things. Dire Wolves should be able to block LOS for his war machines and maybe force his thunderers to move to avoid a flank charge. Wraith are good so long as they can avoid concentrated magical cannon fire. Ghoulkin helps a lot if you run ghouls. Fell bats probably aren't worth it since they're not that hard to kill and cost 250% what wolves cost, but it may be worth taking a unit.

therat
25-08-2008, 04:01
Okay, I've not run wolves for a long time and didn't really consider them, but that sounds, well, sound. The only problem is that if he manages to grab a hill, LoS isn't really a problem for him. What's a good size wolf unit, 10?

Although I've told him to, he hasn't yet runed his cannons.

My main blocks consist of 2x30 zombies (one with a corpse cart) and roughly 20 skellies. Then there's 20GG and misc knights (my KotBK aren't finished yet, so I haven't been using them, 2 units of 6 BK in the last battle).


I'm really liking the dire wolf idea, I never gave them much of a look, but the more I think about it the more I feel that's what my army is missing.

Stinkfoot
25-08-2008, 04:17
There isn't really any reason to run wolves in units of 10; two units of 5 is simply better.

You can still block his LOS, you just need to get right in front of him. His war machine crews can't charge you, so if you get in front of him, line up head-to-tail and turn so your flank faces him (making your unit very long) he won't really be able to shoot anything until another unit arrives to chase away the wolves. That doesn't work so well with his thunderers since he can charge and kill you, but I could easily see such a tactic shutting down a couple of war machines packed tightly on a hill.

Latro
25-08-2008, 05:34
... but I could easily see such a tactic shutting down a couple of war machines packed tightly on a hill.

It would never work ... higher elevation and such.


:cool:

Latro
25-08-2008, 05:43
Fell Bats are actually very good at warmachine hunting. I always use units of five and they never let me down. On average they will score one wound against Dwarf warmachine crews ... together with outnumbering this is usually enough for an auto-break due to outnumbered by fear-causing enemy.

Dire Wolves are also very effective. Even if you roll bad every round and fail to kill anything, they will still hang around for several turns and prevent to warmachine from doing anything.

... both of these units become much better if a fast Vampire with the Helm of Commandment is nearby!


:cool:

Hvidponi
25-08-2008, 10:00
4-5 cairn wraiths, deploy them so that a stone thrower can't hit more than 1 and 2 on 4+... Use Van Hel's once and you can charge by turn 2...
5 fellbats is needed so they outnumber...
5 Dire Wolve are awesome since they keep on outnumbering until there is 2 or 1 of them, and they can also charge in turn 2...
Flying or running (talisman of lycni) vampire...

My favorite war machine\wraith marching vampire against dwaves are; Infinite Hatred, Avatar of Death (Great Weapon), Talisman of Lycni and Wristband of Black Gold (A Cannon or Stone Thrower is ok, but try not to be shot at by thunderes or an organ gun)... He runs around behind the cairn wraiths until he is close enough to march a place where he cannot be seen by evil thunderers or the like... Prefferably 1" in front of a grudge thrower...

Minion
25-08-2008, 10:14
I would also suggest cairn wraiths but also consider spirit hosts,so far they were very succesfull,even the mightiest cannon wont easily score 4 wounds(apart from the fact that most inflict d3 wounds)Bats are good when they are at least 5,bat swarms are also
awesome US 3 each and flying(10 inches though)and have 4 wounds.Wolfs dont save so i dont really trust them much,plus the new models turn ppl's stomachs.I also find awesome vampires that hunt machines.try this;

Vampire,Infinite Hatred,Dread Knight,Hellsteed,and Wristbands of Black Gold+smthing or
Cursed Book,Balefire Spike+20pts(particullary useful against treemen)
This way you will wound dwarves on a 2+ reroll hit rolls and fly

PeG
25-08-2008, 14:06
Lots of ghouls with free march move before the game, he will have lots of targets and very little time to shoot them. Especially if you are lucky enough to go first.

Also if you can get any high level spells of a comet in his artillery bunker (forbidden lore) should mess with his setup. Maybe go magic heavy just for a game or two and get him to use another tactic then bunkering up and shooting at you.

If you do go magic consider creatures of the night and summon lots of bats.

therat
25-08-2008, 17:33
You can still block his LOS, you just need to get right in front of him. His war machine crews can't charge you, so if you get in front of him, line up head-to-tail and turn so your flank faces him (making your unit very long) he won't really be able to shoot anything until another unit arrives to chase away the wolves. That doesn't work so well with his thunderers since he can charge and kill you, but I could easily see such a tactic shutting down a couple of war machines packed tightly on a hill.

The hill is too small for me to be on a parallel plane, he'd still be able to draw LoS due to elevation.

@ PeG
I don't really want to change up my army completely, my real goal is to ensure that my army is well rounded as I'd like to start doing some tournament play. I don't necessarily need a way to beat just dwarfs, but dwarfs and heavy-shooty armies like dwarfs. I am very confident against other combat armies (I've taken down warriors of Khorne, Bretonnia, Lizardmen), but when my troops become too thin and I cannot replenish them things tend to go very bad (rather obvious, I know :P).


Right now my lord is tooled with Infinite Hatred, Red Fury, Lvl 3, Helm of Commandment, Walach's, and Sword of Might. He runs on foot with 20 skellies and breaks 95% of whatever he touches. Keeping his spirit the same, is there a better way to run him?

Aryakin
25-08-2008, 21:31
Recently tired of facing off against magic heavy dark elf army of the new list which constantly feilds the max amount of repeater bolt throwers ontop of a hill convienently always placed in the starting zone and guarded by a large mass of crossbowment at the foot of said hill i found some NICE success with the following combination.

Vamp Lord magic:3 redfury, infinite hatred, ghoul kin with walachs, sword of might, black pariapt mounted on an abyssal terror, formed up in a group of 10x ghouls +ghast 12 inches forward. ghouls got a free march forward, i went first so turn one i charged over the top of his battle line (leaving the ghouls in the dirt) and went from bolt thrower to bolt thrower while my vargulf + dense macabre made some imediate threats to his left flank.

though typically a vargulf is generally enough for minor warmachine issues, sometimes causing terror as early as turn 2 or getting his teeth dirty on turn 3.=