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English 2000
26-08-2008, 00:14
Hi,
I have a friend who thinks that it is pretty much impossible for Greenskins to defeat Vampire Counts. Before I get any further into this thread I should mention that he has won several best general and overall awards in HoH/Rogue Trader tournaments over the years with his Orcs and Goblins so he's no slouch when it comes to playing.

I play VC, he has O&G, so he has challenged me to switch armies. Back in 5th and 6th I ran very a successful greenskin army, however I no longer have the army and it things have changed a great deal.

What general tactics, units and (most importantly) sneaky tricks do you use to defeat vampire counts? I have a general list in my head which I'll post once I've got it finalized but I'm hoping to get some more input from those of you who are experienced with 7th edition Greenies.

How would you go about defeating the following 2000 point VC list?

General VC tactics are hang back and summon like crazy to boost skellies to full size. Bats and Vargulf for war machine/shooter hunting as well as terror tests from the Vargulf.

Wight King acts as a body guard for general in a unit of skellies
Vamp with crown hangs back with his skellies when things up close and personal and boosts a unit with his crown
Other vamp joins grave guard
Zombies try to get in the way of something.

16 Skeletons, full command, war banner
16 Skeletons, full command, endless nightmare
20 zombies
23 Grave Guard, full command, Banner of the Barrows
3 Fell Bats
3 Fell Bats
Vargulf

Vampire Lord, level 3, infinite hatred, lord of the dead, dread knight, walachs haulberk, sword of might

Vampire, flayed Haulberk, infinite hatred, sword of battle, lord of the dead

Vampire, Crown of Commandment, avatar of death, lord of the dead

Wight King, Sword of kings, Gem of Blood, barded steed, battle standard, shield

In the event that I'm over on points I'll drop a skellie or two but I'm pretty sure (going by memory that this comes in slightly under 2000 points)

Malorian
26-08-2008, 04:19
The VC list actually has very little magic.

Take the staff of sorcery and three mages to generate DD (dno't forget staff of sneaky stealing).

Then go heavy on units like savage orcs, boyz w/ extra choppa, savage boar boyz, squig herds, ones that can put out a lot of damage and/or ignore fear.

Make sure you have a tough general and avoid that wight king.

Just shut down his magic and keep winning combats (not hard against zombies and skeletons).

Muncher666
26-08-2008, 04:45
Shagga's Screaming Sword could be fun with that army, too.

Allan.

Lord Exander
26-08-2008, 07:02
I don't see why Orcs couldn't beat that list. As was pointed out it has very little magic relatively speaking. Where I see Orcs having trouble with VC would be with a magic heavy list that can raise 30+ models a turn. That's where things get ugly.

woytek
26-08-2008, 07:05
Take three mages?... ehhh wait... since when did O&G magic become viable again in 7th edition? Just take the spirit totem and a scroll caddy, you will shut down his magic phase cheap.

Load up on savage stuff with extra choppa's or the banner of butchery. From experience I can say that a flank charge (or even frontal sometimes) from savage orc boar boyz big'uns with banner of butchery on a unit of graveguard is fatal!

Savage orcs with three attacks a piece can really shred the skeletons, so get some of these! Nice thing is that all of these don't fear the VC, only downside is animosity.

CPT Commissar Ginn
26-08-2008, 10:39
Are you banning special characters?

English 2000
26-08-2008, 11:02
Are you banning special characters?

No, but I almost never use special characters - not my cup of tea.

I will be putting together a list that I would also be happy with at a tourney rather than tailored to specifically beat my undead - I've actually got it posted on the army list section now in case anyone wants to check it out.

Fredmans
26-08-2008, 12:57
No, but I almost never use special characters - not my cup of tea.

I will be putting together a list that I would also be happy with at a tourney rather than tailored to specifically beat my undead - I've actually got it posted on the army list section now in case anyone wants to check it out.

This is, in my opinion, the main problem with O&G vs VC. O&G can put up a decent fight if tailored against VC. It gets ugly as soon as you use all-comers' lists. The problem is that those units that are most effective vs VC are much worse against other armies.

Example: Squig Hoppers are great against fear-causing armies like demons or VC, and nearly worthless against High elves.

Savage orcs are great against VC, but struggle against mobile armies with plenty of scouts/fast cav/good shooting.

Regeneration and lack of good offensive magic is also a problem against VC. We have no flaming attacks and ethereal units are a real pain in the ****. A unit of wraiths can effectively neutralize your squig hoppers.

Shaga's is great against VC, and so are the Gnashas. You have to kill off characters, and these are your best tools. A VC army tends to be tightly packed together so you will often be able to find 2 or 3 characters within 12".

/Fredmans

Fobster
27-08-2008, 04:14
I also like to keep a spare unit of wolves in the back field. If there is a combat going in your favour a lot of vamps summon a small unit and IoN them into a rear. Having a handy unit of spear armed gobbo's can save you.

sephiroth87
27-08-2008, 04:22
Every time I play VC with my orcs, I'm trying to kill the general. I take a goblin hero in a chariot with the tricksy trinket and a bigboss on a boar chariot. I run them both into unit containing the general if I can, killing him early and forcing the opponent to play defensively.

rocdocta
27-08-2008, 04:46
i believe that they are in a similar class to BOC vs VC. its their leadership that lets them down.

last weekend, 8 boar boys failed 3 fear tests to charge my army. i dropped a dragon in front of his lines away from his lord. 2 gobbo units fled off the board in the first turn. having the -1 ld power is almost evil on a dragon...

3 units of dire wolves held an entire flank due to failed fear tests. the only thin that did any good was the giant, but even that was ripped apart by ghouls.

corpse carts can devastate their magic casting ability. and the more casters, the less leadership.

with ld 7, its almost like tossing a dice...heads i charge, tails i block my own units. its why i gave up my beloved greenskins in the last edition.

soots
27-08-2008, 05:32
Greenskins and empire are the 2 most flexible lists in the game imo.

And yes I agree with others, you can make a anti-VC list, but you will get flogged by other armies with said list. In a tourny you're in trouble.

As for Anti-VC, id suggest plenty of Savage Orcs, Giants, and anything with lots of soft attacks and ITP

Nedar
27-08-2008, 05:36
Not exactly unbeatable, but it is probably one of the most one-sided fights in Warhammer currently.

As stated above, leadership is the biggest factor. Fear and Terror can grind an O&G army to a halt or even send them fleeing off the board. I have no problem beating any O&G player with my fighty Vampire army (Incidently has 8 PD and 2 bound spells with no Mastery powers).

O&G simply got shafted with their army book and I pray they get a new one ASAP.

Spirit
27-08-2008, 14:09
One thing you may want to bear in mind (i am fairly sure this works)

If you can get a rear charge against undead (not too hard with wolf riders i would imagine) then i do not think they can raise the unit back, as you can only add to the back rank and doing that would displace your (orc) models.

This is of course presuming you can last in combat with them, but it might help against the zombies, seeing as they raise on average 7 per casting..

Malorian
27-08-2008, 14:54
One thing you may want to bear in mind (i am fairly sure this works)

If you can get a rear charge against undead (not too hard with wolf riders i would imagine) then i do not think they can raise the unit back, as you can only add to the back rank and doing that would displace your (orc) models.

This is of course presuming you can last in combat with them, but it might help against the zombies, seeing as they raise on average 7 per casting..

Why don't you just use the fanatic catapult move while you're at it... :rolleyes:

(The idea that you can't raise just because you are charged in the rear is absoluted retarded...)

semersonp
27-08-2008, 15:05
how would i beat a vc army?

the same way i beat every other army... pluck one of my armies for the points we're playing out of my binder and set them up on the table, see what is across from me and play accordingly...

you're fighting vc... you know their rules, yeah? place/maneuver to your advantage, strike on your terms and don't put yourself at a disadvantage/leave a rnf unit on an island...

'enuff with the tweaking ya rummies! :P play YOUR game, make your opponent play to YOU and you'll find the game will swing in your favor... force responses, don't respond...

DarkStarr
29-08-2008, 00:31
Ok as posted b4 his magic is pathetic, and i meen pathetic, vc need magic to reinforce ther horrible troops or they die, i say heavy magic defense and decent magic offense will win it for you and possibly some warmachines cause they dont have to take terror tests to lob rocks, trolls might wade through some skelitons easy enough and a couple big hitters to take out his vamps and vargaulf, mabey a wyvern, good luck. oh and if your worried about his crappy bats taking out yoru warmachines protect it with something decent.

English 2000
29-08-2008, 23:18
Ok as posted b4 his magic is pathetic, and i meen pathetic, vc need magic to reinforce ther horrible troops or they die.

Well I guess I must just be an amazing player since I've won almost every games I've played with the new VC and I take exactly the same magic every game :p

Trust me when I say there's plenty of magic in there to go around. VC don't HAVE to be uber magic to kick a$$.