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Strangelove
26-08-2008, 06:39
I've clearly been out of the game for too long. :cries:

Unit A (30 models strong) has a frontage of 6 models, including a champion.

Unit B charges A and causes 7 casualties. However, no attacks are specifically targeted at Unit A's champion.

Is the champion still alive to strike back?

All I see are various mentions of the champion being RnF, but a special case, and I can't quite figure this one out.

Thanks.

Benigno (WE)
26-08-2008, 07:03
Yes, he can strike back. He is like a character, you need to attack him to be killed, except you kill the entire unit, then he is killed anyway.

TheWarSmith
26-08-2008, 07:20
He's rank/file, but has to be called out to be killed. If the champ is of the exact same statline, it's never a bad idea to direct 1 attack towards him.

Condottiere
26-08-2008, 07:37
Usually two, to increase the probability - champions have two attacks, and some are substantially enhanced, so it would be worth it.

Tarax
27-08-2008, 09:28
Basically, as long as no attacks are directed against the champion, you can take another model as the casualty. It's much the same way as with the musician and standard bearer. But unlike those two, you can direct specific attacks against the champion, where he has to be taken as a casualty.

As long as you have normal RnF models left and no attacks are against the champion, you don't need to remove him.

I think I have repeated myself a couple of times ;) , but I hope it's all clear now. Also look at p.81 of the BRB.

Braad
27-08-2008, 11:08
No, that's not true. The musician and standard bearer are actually slain, but the items are picked up by the trooper behind them. Though the actual models are not removed they still died. So they cannot attack.
The champion is completely different, as he is not slain at all (unless all models are killed or himself directly attacked and killed) so that he can still fight back.

The only similarity is that none of the models are removed from the tabletop, if only R&F models are killed.

To give a nice example:
If you have a unit of 200 models with a frontage of 5 and including a champion, no attacks are directed against him, and 180 R&F are killed, then the champion can still fight back.

ashc
27-08-2008, 11:20
That's one heck of a combat Braad! :D

Watch out for Vampire count champions, they can get back up, bwahahaha.... :evilgrin:

Tarax
28-08-2008, 15:13
People should read the rulebook more carefully. Most questions are answered in there. Like this one.


No, that's not true. The musician and standard bearer are actually slain, but the items are picked up by the trooper behind them. Though the actual models are not removed they still died. So they cannot attack.


What's the difference? Only if specifically attacked does the champion get killed. I never said anything about who can strike back.

Braad
28-08-2008, 15:56
No, but from what you typed it could more or less be derived that they didn't die (and therefore could strike back), because you don't take them out and compared their way of 'not taking out' to the champion. Now for the banner and musician, indeed you take out another model from the unit and not the banner/musician, however it still counts as if that banner/musician model died, its just not convenient to take out the standard bearer, break of the banner and glue it to another model.
However, when not taking out the model of the champion, this is because he still lives.
That's a difference, and the words "much the same way" don't really apply if you ask me, cause the only "same way" about them is that you do not physically remove the models in the cases presented above.

xragg
28-08-2008, 20:31
People should read the rulebook more carefully. Most questions are answered in there. Like this one.


Some people have played over many editions. Sometimes subtle changes can be missed even after you read a rulebook several times, its human nature. Just because something is obvious to you, doesnt mean it is to someone else. Rather then tell someone to read the rulebook, offer a reference page for something they apparently missed or overread.

exsulis
29-08-2008, 00:18
Here is a fun question for you.

What happens when a unit has an entire front rank of champions in a block of 20 guys? Since non-deligated attacks automatically go to RnF troopers.

Nurgling Chieftain
29-08-2008, 00:53
"Undelegated" attacks don't normally exist; in a case where the whole front rank were characters, only characters could be attacked.

The only specifically "undelegated" attacks I'm aware of are from the rear ranks of Bretonnian Lances, and how they work in such circumstances is, AFAIK, an open question.

Condottiere
29-08-2008, 02:58
IIRC you have to delegate attacks for those models whose only contact are champions/characters, there's no default undelegated attacks.

PARTYCHICORITA
29-08-2008, 05:14
People should read the rulebook more carefully. Most questions are answered in there. Like this one.


Well i've been having some serious trouble finding the answer to this question. Anyone has a page? Tarax maybe?

Braad
29-08-2008, 08:05
About the all champions thing, or even if there is only one who happens to be on the corner:

If a unit of 5 wide (20mm bases) with a champion on the corner is attacked by a unit of 7 wide (20mm bases) then on of the troopers on one of the corners is only in base to base with the champion. In this case he must attack the champion, AFAIK.

Tarax
29-08-2008, 10:01
Also look at p.81 of the BRB.


Some people have played over many editions. Sometimes subtle changes can be missed even after you read a rulebook several times, its human nature. Just because something is obvious to you, doesnt mean it is to someone else. Rather then tell someone to read the rulebook, offer a reference page for something they apparently missed or overread.


Well i've been having some serious trouble finding the answer to this question. Anyone has a page? Tarax maybe?

Look at the above.


Here is a fun question for you.

What happens when a unit has an entire front rank of champions in a block of 20 guys? Since non-deligated attacks automatically go to RnF troopers.

You mean a unit of Slayers with at least 5 Giant Slayers. For that is the only unit that has such an option.


About the all champions thing, or even if there is only one who happens to be on the corner:

If a unit of 5 wide (20mm bases) with a champion on the corner is attacked by a unit of 7 wide (20mm bases) then on of the troopers on one of the corners is only in base to base with the champion. In this case he must attack the champion, AFAIK.

This is correct.

The problem come from fast dice rolling. In the rules it says what each individual model would do. Then they say that to speed up and have less confusion, you could throw all the dice belonging to the same models, fighting the same enemy models, at the same time.
In the case of the Slayers, you can only hit the Giant Slayers, no other models. In which case you don't have to allocate attacks. The first 5 wounds are against the Giant Slayers, any other wounds are carried over to the models behind, wounding Troll Slayers.
You could argue that no particular model has its attacks directed at him. I think this is immaterial. But you could do so if you want. There is nothing holding you back at doing combat one model at the time.

Loopstah
29-08-2008, 12:09
In the case of the Slayers, you can only hit the Giant Slayers, no other models. In which case you don't have to allocate attacks. The first 5 wounds are against the Giant Slayers, any other wounds are carried over to the models behind, wounding Troll Slayers.
You could argue that no particular model has its attacks directed at him. I think this is immaterial. But you could do so if you want. There is nothing holding you back at doing combat one model at the time.

Can you actually wound Troll Slayers though if you are only in contact with Giant Slayers? Seeing as they have different profiles.

I was under the impression you killed the Giant Slayers and lost the extra wounds, similar to Beastherds where you can only attack Ungors if you are in contact with an Ungor because you have to allocate attacks against one or the other.

Gazak Blacktoof
29-08-2008, 12:14
In the case of the Slayers, you can only hit the Giant Slayers, no other models. In which case you don't have to allocate attacks. The first 5 wounds are against the Giant Slayers, any other wounds are carried over to the models behind, wounding Troll Slayers.


Nope, wounds don't carry over from champions (giant slayers) onto other members of the same unit (troll slayers). Wounds can carry over to the champion from the rest of the rank and file but not the other way round.

In the case of multiple champions (who must be killed by allocated attacks or wounds from the proper rank and file being carried over) you would have to allocate attacks specifically to each model. There is no mechanic for wounds transferring away from one champion even to hit another champion.

Braad
29-08-2008, 15:59
Don't they? I remember reading in the book once that, since they are still part of the unit, excess wounds on champions do actually wound R&F troopers (except in challenges).

Or is this a 6th edition relic still lingering in my mind?

I only have my books at hand during the weekend, so can't check right now, but I believe it was in the 'champions' section...

Gazak Blacktoof
29-08-2008, 17:38
Check out page 76- excess wounds.

EDIT: I believe an FAQ / Errata in 6th also prevented carry over wounds from the champion to the unit.

The reason for all of this is to prevent people just dumping attacks on to champions and characters, scoring excess wounds and killing lots of rank and file models too. It would simply make champions too vulnerable as there would be no point in not directing as many attacks as possible at them.

PARTYCHICORITA
29-08-2008, 23:53
Look at the above.

I fear i am going blind because i can't find the rule book page above in the thread that "answers this question if i read it carefully"

Nurgling Chieftain
29-08-2008, 23:58
If it makes you feel any better, I'm still not clear on what you're referring to by "this question". The original post? Or one of the things talked about since?

PARTYCHICORITA
30-08-2008, 07:00
The original question indeed.

I am also sure characters can attack even if the enemy kills more RnF models than there are on the first rank but can't find the page in the rule book that states this.

Gazak Blacktoof
30-08-2008, 08:33
The rules governing champions are on page 81 (champions) and page 76 (excess wounds). That should also answer your new question, though you may also like to look at page 36, (removing casualties).

Tarax
30-08-2008, 14:16
Nope, wounds don't carry over from champions (giant slayers) onto other members of the same unit (troll slayers). Wounds can carry over to the champion from the rest of the rank and file but not the other way round.

In the case of multiple champions (who must be killed by allocated attacks or wounds from the proper rank and file being carried over) you would have to allocate attacks specifically to each model. There is no mechanic for wounds transferring away from one champion even to hit another champion.

I was thinking more on the line of hitting the unit and not the models, in this case being all champions.

But, when I was looking at the rules where it says the champion can fight back, as long as he has not been killed, I stumbled upon p.76. There it says wounds are not carried over if you attack any individual model.

Now, are all those champions individual models? Therefore you have to allocate attacks against each and every one of them?
I'm not quite sure.

Jwolf
30-08-2008, 14:35
Champions are individual models, and thus must have attacks allocated at them specifically. Consider a unit with 4 heroes and a champion as its frontage - no R&F models can be hit by either melee or shooting (the BRB tells us to randomize hits for shooting in this circumstance). For all intents and purposes, champions are heroes that cannot leave units or join other units if their parent unit is destroyed.