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slaanghoul
26-08-2008, 06:42
The banner cause slaanesh demons to be stubborn for its first break test.

Here is the question. The demons have LD 7.

Say the demons lost combat by 4. = LD3. Roll breaktest and got 6. Normally Demons loose 3 models from demonic rules. Now with this banner, what happens? They don't loose anything right? If they still loose 3 models, what is the point of taking the banner?

What if the roll was an 8? They would loose 5 models.

IMHO, i think the banner works great if you roll under your LD = you loose no models even if you would normal loose a few. If you roll above your LD, then the normal rules apply.

Do I have this right?

DarknessDawns
26-08-2008, 07:00
stubborn means you do not lose leadership and always retain your base leadership unless in some specific circumstances, so if your base LD7 and you roll a 6 and your stubborn, you will not lose any models, if you roll say an 8 you lose 1 model.

TheWarSmith
26-08-2008, 07:19
BUT please note that you cannot be stubborn AND borrow leadership. For example, if a Keeper of Secrets is next to a unit of daemonettes with the BoE, they have a choice of using their stubborn unmodified leadership 7, or could use the Keeper's modified leadership of 9.

DarknessDawns
26-08-2008, 07:56
^ exactly, one of my "specific circumstances" lol but yeah its a pretty good banner.

EvC
26-08-2008, 11:37
Yep, roll equal to or under your LD with the banner and you lose no models.

(Note: LOSE, one o. Not loose!)

Jerrus
26-08-2008, 11:50
But the Daemon faq states that you add the combat result to your roll, not that you subtract it from leadership. Meaning that stubborn doesn't really have any effect at all, or am I mistaken?

narrativium
26-08-2008, 13:28
No... it's a fine line between the letter of the rules and the way gamers play it.

Take the original example: a unit of Daemons, Ld7, loses by Combat Difference 4, and rolls (R) a 6.

By the letter of the rules (in the main rulebook and the Daemon FAQ), the Combat Difference is added to the dice roll, so R6 + CD4 = 10. 10 > Ld7, so the Daemons fail the test by 10 - 7 = 3, and suffer 3 wounds.

However, the gamer tendency is to calculate the roll on the dice needed to pass the test, so they say Ld7 - CD4 = 3, roll of 3 or less needed to pass, R6 > 3 so fail, 6 - 3 = 3 thus 3 wounds suffered. The Daemons army book has an example in which a Leadership of 8 is reduced to 3, which is where it appears contradictory.

Here's the distinction: imagine the Daemons lost by a lot more - by 15, not 4 (clearly, it's been a bad round), and a 6 is rolled. Going by the rulebook/FAQ, we get 2D6 + CD15 compared to Ld 7. 6 + 15 = 21, which beats 7 and causes 14 extra wounds. Going by the Army Book, and the notion that Leadership is reduced, we get 2D6 compared to Ld 7 - CD15 (-8), but Leadership can't be reduced effectively below 2 (Insane Courage/Stability). So, 6 beats Ld 2, the Daemon unit "breaks" and loses 4 wounds.

Ten wounds is a large distinction... and by the FAQ, the intent is that the Daemons suffer 14 wounds, not 4.

Now: General (let's say Ld 9) vs. Stubborn. The General has a Leadership 2 higher than the unit. Dice 6 + CD 4 = 10, still beats 9 but not as much; it suffers fewer wounds. In dice roll terms, it's a 5-. It's still dependent on the Combat Difference, though.
Stubborn means you ignore Break modifiers. Effectively, Combat Difference 0. So, dice roll 6 + CD 0 = 6, doesn't beat Ld 7, so no wounds. It's a static 7- roll at all times.

At Combat Difference 2 (the difference between Leaderships), the two qualities (General and Stubborn) are equal: a 7 will pass, an 8 will fail. At lower Combat Differences (the range 0-1; the opponent may have more musicians) the General's Leadership provides the better roll, and at higher Combat Differences, the unit's Stubborn Leadership is better.

You could say it's comparing 2D6 + 0 to 8 vs. 2D6 + 4 to 9, and by letter of the rules, that's how it works. Or you can work out what the hoped for dice roll itself will be, and compare 2D6 to Stubborn 8 vs. 2D6 to 9 - 4 = 5... which is simpler.

Loopstah
26-08-2008, 13:30
But the Daemon faq states that you add the combat result to your roll, not that you subtract it from leadership. Meaning that stubborn doesn't really have any effect at all, or am I mistaken?

That's actually a good point.

Before the FAQ you subtracted combat resolution as per the Daemon book explanation, meaning stubborn actually had an affect.

Now with the FAQ you add the combat resolution to the dice roll meaning stubborn has no effect at all.

The FAQ has effectively made the Standard of Chaos Glory worthless.

Atrahasis
26-08-2008, 13:40
Not really.

If you check the rules for stubborn and the rules for break tests in the BRB, you'll find that the same contradiction exists.

Stubborn has NEVER been of any use by the rules as they appear in the rulebook.
Stubborn daemons are no different :)

Loopstah
26-08-2008, 13:46
Not really.

If you check the rules for stubborn and the rules for break tests in the BRB, you'll find that the same contradiction exists.

Stubborn has NEVER been of any use by the rules as they appear in the rulebook.
Stubborn daemons are no different :)

Wow, I never noticed that before.

So that means that for stubborn you only ever use the result rolled on the 2D6 then as the + from CR is the modifier you ignore?

So for deamons with stubborn that means you just roll the 2D6 and don't add anything, which means the explanation in the Daemon book is incorrect as it mentions CR reducing leadership, which it doesn't, while the FAQ is the correct way by the BRB rules.

Is this correct then:
A Deamon unit with Ld 7 loses combat by 8.

You roll a 6.

You add the CR (8) to the roll (6) to get 14.

However the Daemons are stubborn so you ignore the modifier which means you discount the (8) from CR and just get a 6.

6 is less than 7 so you don't lose any models.

slaanghoul
26-08-2008, 13:50
OK so what did we learned from all of this? The banner must do something, or why would it be in the army list.

I say, roll under the unit LD, if it is under, then it is stays and no models are lost. If you roll higher, the take out models as normal.

Loopstah
26-08-2008, 13:53
OK so what did we learned from all of this? The banner must do something, or why would it be in the army list.

I say, roll under the unit LD, if it is under, then it is stays and no models are lost. If you roll higher, the take out models as normal.

Yeah, I would agree with this as stubborn units "ignore break test modifiers regardless of how much they lost the combat by."

So you discount the modifier from losing the combat and just compare the 2D6 to the Ld of the unit.

Nedar
26-08-2008, 19:25
OK so what did we learned from all of this? The banner must do something, or why would it be in the army list.

I say, roll under the unit LD, if it is under, then it is stays and no models are lost. If you roll higher, the take out models as normal.

Please explain to me then why the Ogre's have a banner making them Immune to Ice magic? :wtf:

Cambion Daystar
26-08-2008, 19:30
Please explain to me then why the Ogre's have a banner making them Immune to Ice magic? :wtf:

For the rare time you're fighting against a Kislev army led by Tzarina Katherina...

Condottiere
26-08-2008, 19:39
Does it work on Chillwind?

Cambion Daystar
26-08-2008, 20:24
Does it work on Chillwind?

Offcourse not. A chill wind is not enough to freeze someone. An icy wind on the other hand...

T10
26-08-2008, 23:09
Not really.

If you check the rules for stubborn and the rules for break tests in the BRB, you'll find that the same contradiction exists.

Stubborn has NEVER been of any use by the rules as they appear in the rulebook.
Stubborn daemons are no different :)

That's largely true: A break test is (2d6 + X) vs. Leadership rather than 2d6 vs. (Leadership - X) (see p. 39). You always test against the Leadership value on the profile.

However, reading the rules for Stubborn in full (particularilly the concluding example) makes it clear that the effect is to negate the "break test modifier": 2d6 vs. Leadership.

-T10

Wadders
27-08-2008, 00:21
pg. 30 of the Daemons Army Book....

"note that an instability test can be re-rolled if the battle standard is within 12" and/or tested on UNMODIFIED leadership if the unit is stubborn"

Why is this an issue?

The FAQ does not contradict the stubborn rule.

SolarHammer
27-08-2008, 02:33
A positive modifier to the dice result is still a modifier, just like a negative modifier to the units leadership would be.

Stubborn ignores combat resolution modifiers.

veilwalker
29-08-2008, 01:53
So if they are stubborn, lose combat by 8. They have LD 7, roll an 8. They only lose 1 wound. Correct?

DarknessDawns
29-08-2008, 02:58
but you dont modify leadership for instablility, you modify the roll
okay, you lose combat by 3, your LD 7, you roll a 6 but add 3 equaling 9 so you lose 2 models. straight foreward, i though stubborn for daemons let you reroll the instability test.

Nurgling Chieftain
29-08-2008, 04:55
but you dont modify leadership for instablility, you modify the rollYou don't modify anything if the unit is stubborn.


okay, you lose combat by 3, your Ld 7, you roll a 6 but add 3 equaling 9 so you lose 2 models.That's how it works if you're not stubborn.

DarknessDawns
29-08-2008, 07:13
can you quote me the rule for stubborn then?
just out of curiosity(?)

Nurgling Chieftain
29-08-2008, 07:28
Why, are you going to rehash the tired old argument that stubborn doesn't work at all as has been gone over in painful detail already in this thread?

Atrahasis
29-08-2008, 09:37
Yes, correct.

T10
29-08-2008, 10:47
can you quote me the rule for stubborn then?
just out of curiosity(?)

Take a quick peek at the rule book.

-T10

Gazak Blacktoof
29-08-2008, 12:20
Yes, correct.



Wow, I must have stepped into a rules Nirvana where Atrahasis doesn't apply the strictest letter of the rules and thinks about what the intent was :p.

Atrahasis
29-08-2008, 13:18
I always consider the intent if the rules are contradictory. It just doesn't happen as often as many people think ;)

narrativium
29-08-2008, 13:52
And in this case, the contradiction occurs in the Daemon Army Book, but not the main rulebook.

The Break Test section says you add the difference in combat resolution scores to your dice roll, and compare to Leadership; the Stubborn section says you ignore Break Test modifiers, and compare the dice roll directly to the Leadership value. No contradiction present. The Army Book says that the Leadership is reduced; the Errata/FAQ says it isn't.


but you dont modify leadership for instablility, you modify the roll
okay, you lose combat by 3, your Ld 7, you roll a 6 but add 3 equaling 9 so you lose 2 models. straight foreward, i though stubborn for daemons let you reroll the instability test.There's no re-roll unless you've got a BSB or similar power in your army. If your LD7 unit loses by 3 and rolls a 6, and isn't stubborn, then 6 + 3 = 9 > 7, they lose 9 - 7 = 2 wounds. If they are stubborn, then 6 (ignore 3) < 7, they pass their Break Test.

MrBigMr
29-08-2008, 15:59
This is why we can't have nice things.

And why I don't use things that might spark up an argument.