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zendral
27-08-2008, 03:56
This thread is about generating thoughts and ideas about the possible future of T. Son activity. For the sake of this goal, let us assume that the Thousand Sons legion has not been sitting on there ****, and that they have been recruiting and preparing for (major) activity outside the eye.

We know that the index astartes article states that Magnus's geneseed caused unusually high PSYCHIC mutation rates amongst the T. Sons.

We also know that Tzeentch protected them from physical mutation once they fled to the eye.....for a time:skull:. The warping effects of chaos began to warp the bodies physically into forms appealing to Tzeentch. The veteran members of the T.Sons were appalled by this. Ahriman and his cabal...blah blah blah....and all without psychic powers(or minor powers) were turned to dust.
Thus breaking Magnus and turning himself fully to Tzeentch with this lovely quote "The minds of gods are not for mortals to know, or to judge. Accept that Tzeentch has a place for all of us in his grand scheme, and be happy in the part you have to play"



Assuming the legion (not including Ahriman and his cabal since they were banished) has been doing more than bothering the space wolves(via space wolf novels), losing members to various warbands, and sitting in towers doing research.....let us pretend that the legion has been preparing to be very active and that Magnus will actually fullfill his vow on seeing the galaxy burn.

Alrighty...my question: Assuming the legion is recruiting, what would be your take on the process?

As far as I know, there is no solid proof that rubric marines can be replaced so easy. In all the fluff I have read, once the armor is destroyed the soul is released. I have heard of ideas about smaller versions of the rubric being cast, but I would still like to think the legion would like to see growth using warm, living, breathing aspirants.

According to index astartes, sitting on the planet of sorcerers under the watchful eye of Tzeentch will cause physical mutation (hence the rubric). I know it says that the senior members were disturbed by this...but what was the extent of the physical mutation ?

Would aspirants slowly mutate into nothing more than spawn? How fast? And if so...it would surely make recruitment a depressing process for rebuilding the legion. Would new marine squads (instead of the average rubric squad) be half mutants? How would you image new recruits?

Malevon
27-08-2008, 04:11
I know the premise of the question is that they are recruiting, but I simply don't think they have the ability to. I have no reason to believe Rubric Marines are replaceable.

zendral
27-08-2008, 04:24
I know the premise of the question is that they are recruiting, but I simply don't think they have the ability to. I have no reason to believe Rubric Marines are replaceable.

Might have been a bit unclear....I'm aiming to not replace rubric marines...but to just plain recruit like any other chapter. Marines with bodies instead of dust. But as I mentioned above, the problem with this is that physical mutation takes over.

We know that some of the less senior sorcerers wear there physical mutations proudly...but would physical mutation amongst a newly recruited tactical squad be a hinderance or aid? Would spawndom be the eventual fate of tactical squad veterans as they continue to mutate? hmm....

Note:they wouldnt be called tactical squads of course, but just to get my thoughts out easier, its something better to relate to.

Malevon
27-08-2008, 04:31
Oh, sorry. I guess the solution would be to keep them off the Planet of Sorcerers. I see Chapters like The Scourged as non-Rubric successors to the Thousand Sons; almost identical colours, and an allegiance to Tzeentch. In the "Broken Alliance" scenario in the rulebook, a Scourged Sorcerer Lord is pictured leading Thousand Sons Rubric Marines; perhaps there is a connection between the two? (More likely, whoever set up the picture didn't realize the Sorcerer wasn't a actually a Thousands Sons character.)

Hive Mind 33
27-08-2008, 05:07
Might have been a bit unclear....I'm aiming to not replace rubric marines...but to just plain recruit like any other chapter. Marines with bodies instead of dust. But as I mentioned above, the problem with this is that physical mutation takes over.



After the Rubic was cast it sealed their fate, the only geneseed left we know of is in the Sorcerers. They really don't need to find new recruits. They can simply take create new ones from the warp. But only if there is a sorcerer that can summon them.

Malevon
27-08-2008, 05:13
The Magos Biologis maintain samples of all geneseeds, including the original ones. Rumor has it that the Blood Ravens were founded from Thousand Sons geneseed, accounting for their high number of psykers.

I'm not suggesting that the Thousand Sons could use this geneseed, just pointing out that it exists.

Clockwork-Knight
27-08-2008, 05:16
Perhaps Fabius Bile does clone some non-rubric thousand sons for the sorcerours. After all, he is the one who does create new Chaos Marines from the ground-up.

zendral
27-08-2008, 05:21
the only geneseed left we know of is in the Sorcerers. ......easily accessible to the legion. Since there was an abundance of sorcerers, I personally think that there could be enough geneseed to begin a "project" at reviving the origional fighting strength. I have always imagined that new recruits would certainly not be numerous...but certainly not out of the question either.

slaanghoul
27-08-2008, 06:06
I think in order to make the 40k universe work, we have to forget some logic and just go with it. So yes, TS do have new recruit and some can be turned to "dust marines" and some are sorcerers and some are just flesh marines. As far as to how? Whatever you want it to, it can happen. Magus found or built a machine that can alter being to dust marines or flesh marines . . from his mutant subject . .. or what not.

If they don't get new recruit .. how can they still be around after 10,000 years! If you look at some of the Imperial chapters, they must have gone to at least 5-10 cycles or more in 10k years of service. Space wolf must have gone over 10 cycles of recruit by now. The 1st recruit 9 thousands years ago are all dead or in dreadnaught. So yes TS must have recruit or they would be all gone by now.

Dinadan
27-08-2008, 11:41
If they don't get new recruit .. how can they still be around after 10,000 years! If you look at some of the Imperial chapters, they must have gone to at least 5-10 cycles or more in 10k years of service. Space wolf must have gone over 10 cycles of recruit by now. The 1st recruit 9 thousands years ago are all dead or in dreadnaught. So yes TS must have recruit or they would be all gone by now.
But the Space Wolves live predominantly in 'real space' whereas the Thousand Sons are based in the EoT and the Warp where time flows differently meaning that there could easily be Sorcers for who only 10mins have passed since the Legions retreated into the EoT after the siege of Terra. Also, the presence of Abbadon, Arriman, Khan, Bile, Lucius and Typhus shows that there are still marines from the Heresy in active 'service' circa 000M42. The Thousand Sons could further avoid extinction by scheming and plotting behind the scenes rather than going on a rampage like the World Eaters for example. Also, considering the Psychic powers of the sorcerers and Daemon Princes, they could possibly have spells/wards in place to 'catch' the souls from destroyed Rubrics to bind to a new suit of armour or some sort of construction. Seeing as Tzeentch planned the Rubric to happen, he could also intervene and stop the Rubric Marines' souls from being eaten by daemons and return them to the Thousand Sons, turn them into lesser daemon princes to aid the Legion, etc.

Tchlon
27-08-2008, 14:54
Like most things in the 40K universe, the fluff sources contradict each other.

But here are some specifically relevant points.

The Space Wolf novels mention the Thousand Sons converting marines into Rubrics, presumably via some scaled down version of the original. However, these same novels also showed the sorcerers to be dust themselves, just with their minds more intact. This would certainly help solve the problem of 10,000 years of wrinkles. Although the chaos codecii do not explicitly state this one way or another (just their mental capacity after this), the 3rd edition codex implied it when it stated, under the description of Thousand Sons troops, "the rubric destroyed all their bodies and reduced them to dust in their armour, although the champions are still sorcerers".

Numerous sources and codecii mention that the rubric marines (and terminators) only vulnerability is if their armour is breached significantly, their soul escapes. Index Astartes III stated that if the breach was repaired and re-sealed, the soul would return to inhabit the armour. In essence, rubrics are repairable. That would never let the legion expand (and it was always a small legion), but its rate of un-repairable attrition would be quite small compared to others. And being a legion, even a small one, they would be quite large compared to a mere chapter.

The point about the EoT and time is quite significant. The 4th Edition rulebook even stated that travelling through the warp can result in significant time problems of when you actually will arrive (lost for 100's of years, I think in the Battlefleet gothic there was even a reference to something from the future arriving). Most of the time it is stable, but not always, particularly in the Maelstrom and EoT.

The most recent Chaos Marines codex mentions (I believe it was in the Kharn fluff) the destruction of the World Eaters legion. The various comments about war-bands and leaders suggests, to me, that GW has decided that the legions are no longer functional as legions, and have largely broken up into smaller roving groups, or even just squads that mix with other former legion squads.

Other thoughts:

I think Malevon had a good point with some of these newer chaos chapters (such as the Scourged) being new recruits by the same powers. It neatly bypasses most of the problems with actually trying to create or repair Thousand Sons themselves.

Unforetunately I suspect their geneseed is almost certainly lost. All the loyal chapters maintain a relatively steadly supply to the Magnus Biologis, suggesting that they can't keep the geneseed viable in frozen, or whatever state, for 10,000 years. It has probably gone well past its best before date. And anything in the sorcerers, assuming they are still flesh, is probably quite different after the effects of the warp and the rubric.

heretics bane
27-08-2008, 15:06
......easily accessible to the legion. Since there was an abundance of sorcerers, I personally think that there could be enough geneseed to begin a "project" at reviving the origional fighting strength. I have always imagined that new recruits would certainly not be numerous...but certainly not out of the question either.

Erm you cab only get them after there dead, so unless there gonna go and kill and the sorcerers..

But then again they do have their primach so they could just get some of his DNA, something loyalists dont.

ChaosTicket
27-08-2008, 15:07
Yes, the legions are not organised like the were at the Time of the Great Crusade, as they have lost numbers, organisation, leaders, etc.

For the part a Traitor Marine warband is more or less the size of a Imperial Astartes Company.

Thousand Sons MAY not have a gene-seed anymore, but simply converting other mairnes to their legion or repairing their existing "casualties" would be simple.

I don't think that the Sorcerors are Dust, mainly because the Dust legionairres have no personalties, but the Sorcerors are living and lead them, both with their personalties and psyker powers.

Clockwork-Knight
27-08-2008, 15:11
It could be that the geneseed tithe is nothing more but an attempt to keep the SM Orders down to a controllable level, and it's also primarily to inspect how corrupted the geneseed has become, possibly showing signs of chaos taint, not just for having new flesh-thingies to wonder and gaze at.

heretics bane
27-08-2008, 15:27
Curropted dosnt always have to be to do with chaos. A few mutations could "taint" the gene stock but dosnt mean chaos was at it.

Clockwork-Knight
27-08-2008, 15:36
That's why I wrote 'possibly showing signs of chaos taint'.

Alessander
27-08-2008, 16:29
... perhaps they only recruit people with psychic talent, so they become sorcerers right off the bat...?

Old fluff said that the TS often brought slaves to the Planet of the Sorcs, and often bands of slaves would escape and fend for themselves in the rural parts of the planet. Eventually the leader of these "thrall warbands" would gain enough psychic power to attract the eye of the TS, who would then recruit him into the ranks of the legion.

slaanghoul
27-08-2008, 18:20
But the Space Wolves live predominantly in 'real space' whereas the Thousand Sons are based in the EoT and the Warp where time flows differently meaning that there could easily be Sorcers for who only 10mins have passed since the Legions retreated into the EoT after the siege of Terra. Also, the presence of Abbadon, Arriman, Khan, Bile, Lucius and Typhus shows that there are still marines from the Heresy in active 'service' circa 000M42. The Thousand Sons could further avoid extinction by scheming and plotting behind the scenes rather than going on a rampage like the World Eaters for example. Also, considering the Psychic powers of the sorcerers and Daemon Princes, they could possibly have spells/wards in place to 'catch' the souls from destroyed Rubrics to bind to a new suit of armour or some sort of construction. Seeing as Tzeentch planned the Rubric to happen, he could also intervene and stop the Rubric Marines' souls from being eaten by daemons and return them to the Thousand Sons, turn them into lesser daemon princes to aid the Legion, etc.

True about the time warp effect in EoT, however .. . TS have done some bad stuff to imperial in real space .. . therefor, they have 'aged' also. If you think TS are gone in a time warp in EoT, then they have done nothing to Imperial, so no gain and no lost. But we know that they have done stuff to Imperial such as raids and stuff. . there for then must have losses. Even if EoT mess with time, their true life time must be at least 1000 years or more. If there were ever only 9000 TS Rubric marines, then then number can only be smaller and smaller, unless there are ways to create more. You can't just keep fixing them and fixing them. Some will just be so destroyed beyound repair.

Dinadan
27-08-2008, 19:20
True about the time warp effect in EoT, however .. . TS have done some bad stuff to imperial in real space .. . therefor, they have 'aged' also. If you think TS are gone in a time warp in EoT, then they have done nothing to Imperial, so no gain and no lost. But we know that they have done stuff to Imperial such as raids and stuff. . there for then must have losses. Even if EoT mess with time, their true life time must be at least 1000 years or more. If there were ever only 9000 TS Rubric marines, then then number can only be smaller and smaller, unless there are ways to create more. You can't just keep fixing them and fixing them. Some will just be so destroyed beyound repair.
Yes some, but not all which is what you implied earlier. Also, just because there are groups of TS active doesn't mean they're all active or that it's the same one each time and therefore the arguement ''they can't be in a time warp because they do stuff'' doesn't really hold up as a solid defence. As for ''You can't just keep fixing them'' surely that depends on the extent of the damage? I'm not saying that there will be no losses, just that lack of recruiting wont definately destroy the Legion completely in 10,000 years.




As to the original question, considering the scheming nature of the Legion and their patron god, would they need to recruit when they could manipulate others into doing the dirty work? Perhaps their 'recruitment' isn't based on increasing the size of the Legion, but manuvering others into a position to do all the work for them?

Thinking about the Blood Raven issue, maybe instead of direct recruiting, Magnus is recruiting 'sleeper' Chapters, setting up Loyalist Chapters based on his geneseed so that when the time comes he can take control of them (via some hidden programming, quirk of the geneseed, etc) and turn them on the Imperium?

Col. Tartleton
27-08-2008, 19:30
Well lets look at some examples. According to the Ragnar series, the T-Sons can not only be repaired, they can be entirely re summoned armor and all from the warp because the armor is daemonic as are the rubrics. They can literally be sent through time and the warp whether dead or alive as long as there are proper rituals carried out. Therefore the entire legion could be summoned back to life on any occasion on the planet of sorcerers... Looks like the T-Sons win.

Also, although not normally ethereal (although certainly not human anymore,) dead sorcerers also fade away to dust when killed.

I imagine rubrics as fully functioning for a marine, but even less human and more lost in their feelings (like wrath and vengeance.) The idea of automatons is silly, I prefer them as the steady damned tide advancing through enemy fire and shrugging it off as their guns howl with hellfire and brimstone, souls burning with hatred and determination.

Lothlanathorian
27-08-2008, 19:32
The most recent Chaos Marines codex mentions (I believe it was in the Kharn fluff) the destruction of the World Eaters legion. The various comments about war-bands and leaders suggests, to me, that GW has decided that the legions are no longer functional as legions, and have largely broken up into smaller roving groups, or even just squads that mix with other former legion squads.




Only the WE are mentioned as being that splintered. It is also known that the EC wander about in smaller warbands these days, also. Just because it is true for some Legions, however, doesn't make it true for others. The Black Legion is pretty tight and organized still, as are the Word Bearers (some BL book says this, may have been Daemon World). I don't think that the 1K Sons are splintered into warbands, personally. I think that, whatever they are doing, it is to fit into one of the Great Changers schemes and they act as they must to do it.

As far as the 1K Sons recruiting, in the horrid books know as the Space Wolve novels, they can summon the souls back to the armour and, iirc, summon them to possess another astartes. I haven't read the bit about souls returning to repaired armour, but it makes sense to me and I like the image/thought of the ritualised nature of the repair top of the fact that it would actually be a sorcerorous ritual to repair it lol.

And, the plural of codex is codices. Sorry, but it hurt my brain to see it wrong.

slaanghoul
27-08-2008, 20:29
Yes some, but not all which is what you implied earlier. Also, just because there are groups of TS active doesn't mean they're all active or that it's the same one each time and therefore the arguement ''they can't be in a time warp because they do stuff'' doesn't really hold up as a solid defence. As for ''You can't just keep fixing them'' surely that depends on the extent of the damage? I'm not saying that there will be no losses, just that lack of recruiting wont definately destroy the Legion completely in 10,000 years.




As to the original question, considering the scheming nature of the Legion and their patron god, would they need to recruit when they could manipulate others into doing the dirty work? Perhaps their 'recruitment' isn't based on increasing the size of the Legion, but manuvering others into a position to do all the work for them?

Thinking about the Blood Raven issue, maybe instead of direct recruiting, Magnus is recruiting 'sleeper' Chapters, setting up Loyalist Chapters based on his geneseed so that when the time comes he can take control of them (via some hidden programming, quirk of the geneseed, etc) and turn them on the Imperium?

TS must be doing something. . . productive. They are warriors, even if they are wizards, these guys are marines! The only way for TS to be more powerful is recruit. Every chaos legions must recruit to gain more troops or replace losses. The method of "recruit" by each legions is something I don't know, but I do know that they must. I don't have to read any BL books to assume that Chaos legion must have ways to replace their troops or gain more, if not. . how can they still be around after 10,000 years. The time effect from EoT play a small role into this. If Chaos is an enemy that GW describe them to be, then they must be active in the past 10,000 years. If they kind of pop in and out every 1,000 years then who gives a crap about them.

Lets just look at TS as a species. . . if they have no way to repopulate, they are an endanger species. I'm sure Magus doesn't want his subject to be an endanger species. TS have ways to replace losses.

And with out recruit in 10,000 years. . . any legions or chapters will be dead. Unless the whole legions were hiding and not doing crap the whole time .. . but we all know that all Chaos legions are active .. infact .. .they are all very active.

Trolond
27-08-2008, 20:34
I think in order to make the 40k universe work, we have to forget some logic and just go with it. So yes, TS do have new recruit and some can be turned to "dust marines" and some are sorcerers and some are just flesh marines. As far as to how? Whatever you want it to, it can happen. Magus found or built a machine that can alter being to dust marines or flesh marines . . from his mutant subject . .. or what not.

This is interesting, however, Magnus would in no way build a machine to do his work ;). He would use his sorcery and command it to be so, and it would happen.


If they don't get new recruit .. how can they still be around after 10,000 years! If you look at some of the Imperial chapters, they must have gone to at least 5-10 cycles or more in 10k years of service. Space wolf must have gone over 10 cycles of recruit by now. The 1st recruit 9 thousands years ago are all dead or in dreadnaught. So yes TS must have recruit or they would be all gone by now.

This is not true, in any way. The warp does not in any way flow with time. In "Flight of the Eisenstein" after their navigator dies in the warp, one of the marines (I cant remember which) freaks out because they could end up astrographically thousands of lightyears off or chronologically thousands of years off.


Erm you cab only get them after there dead, so unless there gonna go and kill and the sorcerers..

But then again they do have their primach so they could just get some of his DNA, something loyalists dont.

I'm like 90% sure that this isnt true. There are two progenoid organs in a marine (IIRC), the one in the neck can be harvested after 6 years I think, or something like that, the one in the chest after ~12. (It might be 5/10, I cant remember). Both *can* be removed from a living marine, but it is obviously easier to just rip it out of a dead marine.


As to the original question, considering the scheming nature of the Legion and their patron god, would they need to recruit when they could manipulate others into doing the dirty work? Perhaps their 'recruitment' isn't based on increasing the size of the Legion, but manuvering others into a position to do all the work for them?

Thinking about the Blood Raven issue, maybe instead of direct recruiting, Magnus is recruiting 'sleeper' Chapters, setting up Loyalist Chapters based on his geneseed so that when the time comes he can take control of them (via some hidden programming, quirk of the geneseed, etc) and turn them on the Imperium?

Yes, I love this idea. Whichever IA book Sons are in, or maybe it was last codex, I loved the story about how the sorceror forced the people in the decontamination chamber to kill themselves (or something along those lines...). I don't really think the idea of "sleeper" chapters is really plausible. While it would be easier to corrupt psykers, I am sure that Magus Biologis searched most heresy-related geneseed for taint before creating new marines with it.


Well lets look at some examples. According to the Ragnar series, the T-Sons can not only be repaired, they can be entirely re summoned armor and all from the warp because the armor is daemonic as are the rubrics. They can literally be sent through time and the warp whether dead or alive as long as there are proper rituals carried out. Therefore the entire legion could be summoned back to life on any occasion on the planet of sorcerers... Looks like the T-Sons win.

I love the idea of re-summoning Sons' souls and reanimating armour, that's awesome. I can just see a large group of thralls preparing a huge collection of empty, newly created rubric armour, as a cabal of sorcerors begins bargaining with Tzeentch for their animation, and row upon row of armour coming alive.... awesome.... haha.


Also, although not normally ethereal (although certainly not human anymore,) dead sorcerers also fade away to dust when killed.

I don't agree that sorcerors fade away once killed. Probably the most powerful ones (like Ahriman...) "pull a Magnus" and disappear before they can be killed. I can see lesser sorcerors giving their lives in a last ditch attempt to take out as many enemies as possible, releasing a psychic backlash as they die.

As the silver towers are now giant Thousand Sons fortresses (best fleet-creation story.... ever), I think it would be most interesting if they acted like the black ships, seeking out and capturing dormant psykers before the imperium gets to them, then disappearing back into the warp ASAP. I mean, the sorcerors of the legion are not unkillable, and they do need to be replaced.

I doubt new rubrics are being created because its not like a good thing that the legion wanted to happen. It was a mistake, and quite shameful to the legion. If new marines are being created, they'd be from possible psykers with the progenoid geneseed (because I'm sure any stores of seed have run out...) of the legion's sorcerors. I, honestly, wish that GW would publish a "modern day" status update on all of the legions, not chapters, but the remains of the legions. Including newer info on the primarchs, recruiting status, fleet status, etc.

Dinadan
27-08-2008, 20:56
I don't really think the idea of "sleeper" chapters is really plausible. While it would be easier to corrupt psykers, I am sure that Magus Biologis searched most heresy-related geneseed for taint before creating new marines with it.
True, but if it had been infiltrated, or member corrupted, then 'contaminated' geneseed could get through. I can easily imagine schemers like the TS and Alpha Legion swapping 'good' geneseed for 'bad' to bring the Imperium down from within. Again, why risk your own hide to do something when you can get someone else to take the risks for you?

DantesInferno
27-08-2008, 22:43
Alrighty...my question: Assuming the legion is recruiting, what would be your take on the process?

Unfortunately I don't have time to respond as I'd like to in answer to this question, especially given that it used to be one of my pet topics around here....

In short, there are pretty good reasons to believe that the Thousand Sons are recruiting (in case anyone was worried about the underlying assumption in the thread).

Given that they are recruiting, there are two main options:
1) The new recruits fill the normal roles that flesh-and-blood marines filled in the Thousand Sons pre-Rubric. Recruits with higher psychic ability will of course rise much more quickly through the ranks as has always been the case in the Legion. In this case, mutation will obviously be an issue for the new recruits, although probably will not be quite so severe as to result in complete spawndom. The huge rates of mutation were due to the large numbers of complete non-psykers left in the Legion after the Great Crusade. It's likely that the Legion in the Eye attempts to recruit as far as possible humans with at least some level of psychic ability (perhaps not enough to be represented by HQ Sorcerers in the army list, but enough latent psychic power to grant them the 5+ invulnerable save of the Mark of Tzeentch).
2) The new recruits are gathered together and a small-scale Rubric is cast over them as a rite of passage. Ones with sufficient psychic ability survive with their capacities greatly enhanced, while those who don't are turned into dust.

If you look at the Legion as a whole, it's unlikely that either 1) or 2) is going to be a universal phenomenon. The procedure for new recruits in a Thousand Sons warband is going to vary based on the attitudes of the commanding Sorcerer towards Abaddon, Magnus, and the command structure of the Legion. I think the idea that there's a cohesive practice towards recruitment in the Legion is implausible: it's likely going to be a mix of 1) and 2) based on the preferences of individual commanders within the Legion.

If anyone's still interested in the topic, I'd recommend checking out these threads:
1. (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14699)
2. (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130593)
3. (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130245)
4. (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118370)
5. (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16844)
6. (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157385)
7. (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145726)(end of the thread)
8. (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125470)(halfway in)
[Note: the last 3 threads are from 40k General, so treat with the appropriate caution...]

slaanghoul
28-08-2008, 02:38
This is interesting, however, Magnus would in no way build a machine to do his work ;). He would use his sorcery and command it to be so, and it would happen.



This is not true, in any way. The warp does not in any way flow with time. In "Flight of the Eisenstein" after their navigator dies in the warp, one of the marines (I cant remember which) freaks out because they could end up astrographically thousands of lightyears off or chronologically thousands of years off.


.

Warp time effect plays a small role in this discussion because TS are an active chaos legion. In order to be consider active, they must exist in the real universe to be consider a threat to the Imperial. I understand the warp time effect, but i would say that doesn't matter how the time warp effect the TS as a whole. They somehow out put enough TS to the real universe to make them a threat. Hence. . . they are active. If they are active, they need to replace their losses, simple fact of war.

Clockwork-Knight
28-08-2008, 02:47
It really depends where, and how often, and when the Thousand Sons actually fought. Remember, the Imperium is still a huge place, consisting of a million worlds, so at least half as much as when the Emperor still walked amongst men. Depending on how well their sorcery is, their tactics, their goals, and their target, there doesn't have to be too many warbands around. Also, it's not always the same warband walking around. Ahriman may well be known for ten thousand years, but his time in real space may only perhaps be 500, if accumulated.

heretic
28-08-2008, 04:12
Couple things:

In "Space Wolf" Ragnar encounters/kills a 1k son, can't recall the name, but its stated in the story how the armor was empty but it would not be the last timw the two meet.


As to time, there is a short story about a marine that was lost through the warp from the heresy and encounters a word bearer I believe, that was 10 centuries. Many official stories explain how the warp is seperate from time

zendral
28-08-2008, 07:20
Unfortunately I don't have time to respond as I'd like to in answer to this question, especially given that it used to be one of my pet topics around here....


Indeed. I have always watched these threads with great interest.



Even Magnus and his followers may have come around to the usefulness of the Rubric. Magnus was mightly pissed off after Ahriman went behind his back and took away much of his precious Legion, which he had sacrificed so much to save. But it was only in the aftermath of the Rubric that he fully embraced his place as a pawn of Tzeentch. And after all, Magnus and his followers have had 9000+ years of bossing Rubric marines around to get used to the idea and see the benefits.




We're not sure exactly what Magnus' view on the Rubric is by M41. He was certainly mightily pissed right after it happened, but he's had 9500 years or so to get used to it by now. Given Magnus' general state of acquiescence (accepting that he's a tool of Tzeentch while Ahriman fights it with every fibre of his being), it's possible he's been convinced that Rubrics are part of Tzeentch's Grand Plan. It's also possible that leaving lots of non-Rubrics around the Planet of Sorcerers would just serve to remind everyone of what they lost.



Just for argument's sake, the Rubric represented the final breaking of Magnus' will, and the acceptance of his complete manipulation. Hence the way he declined to destroy Ahriman and his renegade cabal after the Rubric, when convinced that it was part of Tzeentch's plan (whatever that means...). And hence the Proclamation of Magnus: "The minds of gods are not for mortals to know or to judge. Accept that Tzeentch has a place for all of us in his grand scheme, and be happy in the part you have to play."

(This is of course contrasted ironically with Ahriman's complete and utter refusal to accept his damnation...)

Supposing Magnus could be convinced that repeated castings of the Rubric over new recruits were part of Tzeentch's plan, it's possible that he'd command it. If it's any consolation, he'd probably hate himself for it too....


Thank you for all those links. I find your overall POV interesting. I never really thought about Magnus actually encouraging more rubric marines.


If you look at the Legion as a whole, it's unlikely that either 1) or 2) is going to be a universal phenomenon. The procedure for new recruits in a Thousand Sons warband is going to vary based on the attitudes of the commanding Sorcerer towards Abaddon, Magnus, and the command structure of the Legion. I think the idea that there's a cohesive practice towards recruitment in the Legion is implausible: it's likely going to be a mix of 1) and 2) based on the preferences of individual commanders within the Legion.


I share the same thoughts, although I was trying to settle for one or the other....what you said actually makes sense.

(focusing on non-rubric/non-sorcerer new recruits)
Although veteran members may have found it appalling, it is stated in IA, that some sorcerers bear there mutations proudly. Obviously pointing out that a lot of the them are proud to be warped by Tzeentch.

New recruits (without psychic talent) over time would surely begin to show signs of mutation. Do you think that these mutations would break down there ability to be a cohesive fighting unit? or would it be accepted as a new weapon?

DantesInferno
29-08-2008, 23:39
Thank you for all those links. I find your overall POV interesting. I never really thought about Magnus actually encouraging more rubric marines.

Unfortunately the paucity of information that we have regarding the Thousand Sons post-Rubric (with the exception of course of Ahriman, an exile from the Legion proper) means that it's more or less impossible to give precise answers regarding Magnus and his followers. What we do know is that Magnus has more or less resigned himself to the fact that he is merely one of Tzeentch's pawns (in contrast to his former Chief Librarian, who steadfastly refuses to accept his damnation). As such, it seems plausible that Magnus could indeed encourage the creation of more Rubric Marines if he was convinced it was part of Tzeentch's plan. In a cruel twist of fate, he'd probably hate it with a passion, as it would be a constant reminder of what he and his Legion have lost.


I share the same thoughts, although I was trying to settle for one or the other....what you said actually makes sense.

The internal cohesion of all the Traitor Legions is often strongly overestimated. The Thousand Sons are no different: while there is no doubt a large portion of the Legion still swearing at least nominal loyalty to Magnus, I'd suspect the majority of the still-living members of the Legion (or at least a large minority) have left and have joined the warbands of other Chaos leaders or formed factions of their own right, searching for arcane lore and artefacts. Still others will have followed Ahriman and his cabal into exile.


(focusing on non-rubric/non-sorcerer new recruits)
Although veteran members may have found it appalling, it is stated in IA, that some sorcerers bear there mutations proudly. Obviously pointing out that a lot of the them are proud to be warped by Tzeentch.

Yup. Remember too that their Primarch was always visibly a mutant, even during the Great Crusade, and that now he's a Daemon Prince. Physical abnormality isn't a new thing for the Thousand Sons.


New recruits (without psychic talent) over time would surely begin to show signs of mutation. Do you think that these mutations would break down there ability to be a cohesive fighting unit? or would it be accepted as a new weapon?

Again, I'm afraid that I can't provide much more than an answer of "It depends..."

Views within the Legion fall along a spectrum, with Ahriman and his fellow hardcore traditionalists who still want to master the power of Chaos at one end, and Magnus and his followers on the other, who accept that Chaos is their master.

The further you get to Ahriman's end of the spectrum, the less accepting will be the stance taken towards mutation. After all, it's what caused them to cast the Rubric in the first place. As you go towards the Magnus end of the scale, however, I'd imagine that mutations would be more likely to be seen as gifts from their master and new weapons to be used in his name.

Spock'd
03-09-2008, 08:08
dinadan, I don't agree with your sleeper theory of the Blood Ravens. They've more than proven unswerving loyalty to the Emporer, and the TS geneseed theory points to them having seperated before or during the Heresy, not after, so they can't be some plan of Magnus. :rolleyes:

The Blood Ravens are just loyal Marines from the original TS geneseed.
there was an interesting thread on the Black Library website a while ago discussing Blood Ravens origins:

http://forum.blacklibrary.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8869

hope that helps somehow.

Dinadan
03-09-2008, 10:37
dinadan, I don't agree with your sleeper theory of the Blood Ravens. They've more than proven unswerving loyalty to the Emporer, and the TS geneseed theory points to them having seperated before or during the Heresy, not after, so they can't be some plan of Magnus. :rolleyes:
Umm, isn't that the point of sleeper agents - to appear devoutly loyal until they're activated? Also, what evidence is there that the BRs definately split before the Heresy? They could easily have been founded later using stock geneseed that had been forgotten and redescovered overtime.
Anyway, I didn't say specifically that the BR were a sleeper chapter, I was just bringing up the point that as there is evidance that they have Mgnus's geneseed, other chapters may have aswell and they may be the sleeper agents (thinking further, perhaps there are sleeper chapters and the BR are a side-effect when the wrong geneseed got used in their creation, so they inhereted some traits, but not all the elements necessary to make them full sleepers weren't put in place either through a lack of 'special' training or use of geneseed that the Thousand Sons' agents hadn't fully prepared)

DantesInferno
03-09-2008, 11:16
dinadan, I don't agree with your sleeper theory of the Blood Ravens. They've more than proven unswerving loyalty to the Emporer, and the TS geneseed theory points to them having seperated before or during the Heresy, not after, so they can't be some plan of Magnus. :rolleyes:

Check out the example of the Emperor's Swords Chapter in the latest Chaos Codex. You don't need to know that you're a Chaos sleeper agent to actually be a Chaos sleeper agent.

Canis
03-09-2008, 11:48
Check out the example of the Emperor's Swords Chapter in the latest Chaos Codex. You don't need to know that you're a Chaos sleeper agent to actually be a Chaos sleeper agent.

Those sneaky Alpha Legion operatives did for the Emperor's Swords, and they WERE the opponents of the Blood Ravens in the first Dawn of War game (whose librarian was under the sway of the Alpha legion sorcerer too). Maybe the DantesInferno is on to something here. ;)

Spock'd
14-09-2008, 21:25
Yeah, you have a point about the sleeper agents, but no, there IS evidence that points to the Blood Ravens splitting BEFORE the heresy, or at least soon after, but if it was afterwards, they would have nothing to do with Magnus. It does say in the end of SM Soulstorm that the darkest time of the Blood Ravens was just beginning, but I seriously doubt thats any kind of sleeper agents. The ending implies that its more to do with the Blood Ravens not particularly caring whether or not they have to fight other loyal forces, like the Imperial Guard or SoB - or even the traitor 5th Company. That too was via their Librarian, falling in the same way as in DoW, and then his men followed him probably with the below mentioned hooks, power etc, mutations and the rest. One interesting idea is that the dark time is caused when the Fated 5th Company are mistaken for loyal Blood Ravens, and the chapter are labelled traitors. It will probably be developed in DoW2 and the expansions. ;)

And the Librarian in DoW wasnt under control via sleeper agents, that was more the lure of chaos. One niche of self-doubt or ambition etc. and the sorcerer hooked on. The DoW novel is the game in a lot more detail, and it describes his fall - if you do mean that you think the Alpha Legion sorcerer used sleeper agents on the Librarian, it's like saying Horus was lured by sleeper agents. :eyebrows:

Xandros
17-09-2008, 17:42
My opinion is no. The Thousand Sons do not recruit in general. My reasons for this are as follows:


Super-soldiers are a core Tzeenchian theme, vis a vis the desire for evolution and improvement. The Thousand Sons have this; bereft of all mortal frailty, utterly loyal, eminently controllable and completely fearless. No sorcerer would settle for less.

The Thousand Sons are a close-knit group, extremely conservative and distrusting of outsiders. Bob and Joe are not going to be let in.

Rubric marines are eternal, representative of the egyptian afterlife that was an eternity of servitude, subject to renewal through the rituals of the living. I find it likely that Thousand Sons Librarian-Sorcerers could do likewise.



That being said, yes. Of course there are exceptions and every sorcerer worth his salt is going to want at least one apprentice.

DantesInferno
18-09-2008, 00:42
My opinion is no. The Thousand Sons do not recruit in general. My reasons for this are as follows:

OK, I'll take the bait...


Super-soldiers are a core Tzeenchian theme, vis a vis the desire for evolution and improvement. The Thousand Sons have this; bereft of all mortal frailty, utterly loyal, eminently controllable and completely fearless. No sorcerer would settle for less.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here: the unchanging, immortal Rubric marines are the exact opposite of the whole point of Tzeentch. As you said, Tzeentch is concerned with the desire for constant evolution and even change for change's sake. A final, perfect endpoint is completely anathema to Tzeentch, as it would be the end of ambition and the end of change.


The Thousand Sons are a close-knit group, extremely conservative and distrusting of outsiders. Bob and Joe are not going to be let in.

First of all, we know that Ahriman and his cabal are constantly seeking talented psykers from inside the Imperium to join their ranks. I can't see any reason why the Thousand Sons in the Eye wouldn't be doing exactly the same thing.

Remember that Magnus sacrificed everything for his Legion. I would have thought the massive loss of gene-seed during the Rubric would have necessitated Thousand Son recruitment in the Eye.

And according to Fabius Bile's writings, he's had the chance to analyse Thousand Sons gene-seed, which would possibly indicate he's been involved in providing the Thousand Sons with new recruits (as he has done for the other Traitor Legions too).


Rubric marines are eternal, representative of the egyptian afterlife that was an eternity of servitude, subject to renewal through the rituals of the living. I find it likely that Thousand Sons Librarian-Sorcerers could do likewise.

Sure, the Thousand Sons are Egyptian-influenced, but that doesn't mean that everything about them is automatically identical.


That being said, yes. Of course there are exceptions and every sorcerer worth his salt is going to want at least one apprentice.

That's selling it somewhat short. We know that all the other Traitor Legions actively recruit new members to fill their ranks: why is there such opposition to the idea of the Thousand Sons doing it? Especially since the Thousand Sons are the one Legion who needs to recruit new Marines above all others.

Xandros
21-09-2008, 06:43
I'm not sure what you're getting at here

Pretend stupidity? It's not like I didn't explain it. I do see where you're coming from, but it's not correct. Succesful Tzeentchians do not desire change in Themselves, but others. Their modus operandi is already eminently powerful.


First of all, we know that Ahriman and his cabal are constantly seeking talented psykers from inside the Imperium to join their ranks. I can't see any reason why the Thousand Sons in the Eye wouldn't be doing exactly the same thing.

And that is exactly what I said in my post.


Remember that Magnus sacrificed everything for his Legion. I would have thought the massive loss of gene-seed during the Rubric would have necessitated Thousand Son recruitment in the Eye.

And according to Fabius Bile's writings, he's had the chance to analyse Thousand Sons gene-seed, which would possibly indicate he's been involved in providing the Thousand Sons with new recruits (as he has done for the other Traitor Legions too).

Understand, the Thousand Sons are seclusive and highly conservative. They don't trust outsiders... wait, didn't I state this once already? The community on Prospero was based around psykers as a ruling caste, cynically using the lower caste's religious beliefs as a means of control, a system later horribly enforced by Ahriman's Rubric. Oursiders do not have these beliefs and thus probably can't be rubricised either.


Sure, the Thousand Sons are Egyptian-influenced, but that doesn't mean that everything about them is automatically identical.

I'm pretty sure all the egyptian influence you see is funny hats.


...why is there such opposition to the idea of the Thousand Sons doing it?

I have to wonder the opposite: Why is there this massive desire to have the Thousand Sons recruit when it's breaking the rule of cool in myriad ways?

DantesInferno
21-09-2008, 07:41
Pretend stupidity? It's not like I didn't explain it. I do see where you're coming from, but it's not correct. Succesful Tzeentchians do not desire change in Themselves, but others. Their modus operandi is already eminently powerful.

No, I wasn't pretending to be stupid. You've either completely misunderstood the essence of Tzeentch or your point simply doesn't follow.

Tzeentch is not about reaching an endpoint of perfection, or even reaching a level of sufficiency. Take a look at any of the descriptions of Tzeentch in the 4.0, 3.5 or 2.0 Chaos Codices. They all stress that Tzeentch is about change, ostensibly for the sake of improvement, but ultimately for the sake of change (c.f. 3.5: "Tzeentch's every action is planned with its ultimate goal as his own establishment as the pre-eminent power in the Warp. Of course, the very nature of the Lord of Entropy is such that, were he to attain this goal, he would still strive for turmoil and change." See also 4.0: "Tzeentch can never achieve an ultimate aim for it would be the end of ambition and hence the end for the Lord of Destiny.")

I'm not sure where you're coming up with your premise that successful Tzeentchians don't desire change in themselves, but only in others. It's simply untrue: Tzeentch is a path of self-improvement, of seeking the power to achieve your goals.

Therefore, while super-soldiers in general are indeed a Tzeentchian theme, super-soldiers who can't change and improve aren't. Indeed, they're anathema to the whole concept of Tzeentch. Rubrics represent ultimate stasis, the exact opposite of what Tzeentch is meant to stand for.

How exactly the Thousand Sons themselves respond to this irony (or even whether they're aware of it) is not known.... Clearly at least one appropriate way would be to recruit more living members who can better approximate the ideal of their god.


Understand, the Thousand Sons are seclusive and highly conservative. They don't trust outsiders... wait, didn't I state this once already? The community on Prospero was based around psykers as a ruling caste, cynically using the lower caste's religious beliefs as a means of control, a system later horribly enforced by Ahriman's Rubric. Oursiders do not have these beliefs and thus probably can't be rubricised either.

The psychic officer corps of the Thousand Sons was never seclusive and insular to the point that it didn't induct new members. Indeed, during the Great Crusade the rank-and-file Thousand Sons to show the most psychic promise were apprenticed to more experienced Sorcerers to be taught in the use of warp-magic as they gained battlefield experience and rose through the ranks. There's absolutely no reason why the same can't happen to new inductees into the Legion after the Rubric.


I have to wonder the opposite: Why is there this massive desire to have the Thousand Sons recruit when it's breaking the rule of cool in myriad ways?

Two things:
A) It simply isn't breaking the "rule of cool" to have the Thousand Sons recruit. I can't see why you could possibly think that non-recruiting Thousand Sons are innately cooler than recruiting Thousand Sons.
B) Even if it were somehow breaking the "rule of cool", it's a much more sensible, consistent and coherent interpretation and should therefore be adopted. See my previous posts (in this thread and the others that I linked to earlier) for the reasons why.

Xandros
05-10-2008, 12:52
It's true: Tzeentch is not about reaching an endpoint of perfection. Or he is, in a sense. He just isn't satisfied when he finally gets there. However, reaching the end of a path does not mean he'll scrap all that he has striven for. The goal of Tzeentch is success eternal, driven - and limited by - an immense fear of failure. This is why the likes of Abaddon, Ahriman and Darth Vader punish their subordinates: Fear expressed as agression; A freudian defence mechanism.

An example closer to everyday life is power gamers who try to excise every possible weakness from their list, the end goal of which is to win without rolling dice which, needless to say, is quite impossible. The result is a drive towards units which are not versatile - since versatility implies weakness - but rather perceived to be strong in every possible situation. Like harlequins in a falcon (4th ed example): Perfect delivery system, nigh impossible to kill and equally deadly against any target.

For the Thousand Sons rubric marines constitute this kind of safe bet. Knowing well how fickle their master is they need to hedge their bets lest he find more suitable champions. This is Tzeentch's nature: Rabid opportunism!



It is also true that Tzeentch is a path of self-improvement, but only to an extent, as I've attempted to show above. It stops you know: All semblance of idealism is lost in lust for power as his followers (and contributors) become afraid of losing the power they've gained. Thus does Tzeentch corrupt.



I didn't say that the Thousand Sons don't recruit new sorcerers. In fact quite the opposite: Sorcerers are, so to speak, "above the rules". Promising psykers are not as I put it "Bob and Joe", but rather the cream of the human race.

DantesInferno
05-10-2008, 13:25
It's true: Tzeentch is not about reaching an endpoint of perfection. Or he is, in a sense. He just isn't satisfied when he finally gets there. However, reaching the end of a path does not mean he'll scrap all that he has striven for. The goal of Tzeentch is success eternal, driven - and limited by - an immense fear of failure. This is why the likes of Abaddon, Ahriman and Darth Vader punish their subordinates: Fear expressed as agression; A freudian defence mechanism.

An example closer to everyday life is power gamers who try to excise every possible weakness from their list, the end goal of which is to win without rolling dice which, needless to say, is quite impossible. The result is a drive towards units which are not versatile - since versatility implies weakness - but rather perceived to be strong in every possible situation. Like harlequins in a falcon (4th ed example): Perfect delivery system, nigh impossible to kill and equally deadly against any target.

For the Thousand Sons rubric marines constitute this kind of safe bet. Knowing well how fickle their master is they need to hedge their bets lest he find more suitable champions. This is Tzeentch's nature: Rabid opportunism!

I'm not really sure what you're arguing for at this point. If we agree that the essence of Tzeentch is continual evolution and self-improvement, then Rubric Marines clearly conflict with these core Tzeentchian ideals.

Sure, Rubric Marines are powerful, but that's not the point. They're the very embodiment of stasis. They're completely unchanging, and preclude any possible development. No ambition, no hope, no drive for improvement. Therefore, they limit the power of their masters. And limitations on power are not what a Tzeentchian strives for.


It is also true that Tzeentch is a path of self-improvement, but only to an extent, as I've attempted to show above. It stops you know: All semblance of idealism is lost in lust for power as his followers (and contributors) become afraid of losing the power they've gained. Thus does Tzeentch corrupt.

Um, so if Tzeentchian followers become afraid of losing the power that they've gained, they seek out ever more power. It's not about reaching a level at which there's enough power to safeguard what you've won. It's a continual process of improvement until it eventually becomes about the change itself: change for the sake of change.

Rubrics quite obviously stand utterly opposed to this ideal.


I didn't say that the Thousand Sons don't recruit new sorcerers. In fact quite the opposite: Sorcerers are, so to speak, "above the rules". Promising psykers are not as I put it "Bob and Joe", but rather the cream of the human race.

So you started off your argument in this thread with the thesis that the Thousand Sons don't recruit in general. Is that what you're still contending?

Xandros
05-10-2008, 17:30
I'm not really sure what you're arguing for at this point. If we agree that the essence of Tzeentch is continual evolution and self-improvement, then Rubric Marines clearly conflict with these core Tzeentchian ideals.

You pulled that agreement out of context. The Changer of Ways does not represent positive ideals such as you think. Look around you. No serious tzeenchian believes in "self-improvement" save as a facade to manipulate his surroundings. It is just hypocrisy.


Sure, Rubric Marines are powerful, but that's not the point. They're the very embodiment of stasis. They're completely unchanging, and preclude any possible development. No ambition, no hope, no drive for improvement. Therefore, they limit the power of their masters. And limitations on power are not what a Tzeentchian strives for.

Tzeentch doesn't care about his minions. His minions don't care about their minions either. Do you see a pattern here? They're puppets and puppets should not have a will of their own. A sorcerer may think he does, but he is dancing to Tzeentch's tune nonetheless.


Um, so if Tzeentchian followers become afraid of losing the power that they've gained, they seek out ever more power. It's not about reaching a level at which there's enough power to safeguard what you've won. It's a continual process of improvement until it eventually becomes about the change itself: change for the sake of change.

Rubrics quite obviously stand utterly opposed to this ideal.

There is no process of improvement. Change for the sake of change is all about opportunism. Planetary government look better than rebel faction? Change! Chaos stronger than order? Change!


So you started off your argument in this thread with the thesis that the Thousand Sons don't recruit in general. Is that what you're still contending?

I made an amendment at the end of my first post. Recruitment of sorcerers is fine - The drive to replace rubric marines is what I'm opposed to.

DantesInferno
06-10-2008, 00:47
You pulled that agreement out of context. The Changer of Ways does not represent positive ideals such as you think. Look around you. No serious tzeenchian believes in "self-improvement" save as a facade to manipulate his surroundings. It is just hypocrisy.

I'm not making up the idea that Tzeentch stands for such ideals as evolution and self-improvement. It's pretty much a staple of all the descriptions in the various Chaos Codices of what Tzeentch represents. Check out in particular p59 of the 3.5 Ed Codex, which provides a nice description of the 'philosophical' underpinnings of the worship of Tzeentch. If you want to characterise these notions as "positive ideals" that's fine, but it really doesn't have any bearing on the issue.

Of course, this isn't to say that all Tzeentchians themselves have this as a conscious awareness of what their god represents. It would be putting things entirely backwards to suggest that Tzeentchians think "Ah, my god is a god of self-improvement, so I want more power to improve myself."


Tzeentch doesn't care about his minions. His minions don't care about their minions either. Do you see a pattern here? They're puppets and puppets should not have a will of their own. A sorcerer may think he does, but he is dancing to Tzeentch's tune nonetheless.

Why should puppets not have wills of their own? That's exactly what Tzeentch enjoys: individuals who don't merely acquiesce to their damnation, but fight with all their essence against it, and yet are still drawn in against their will. Just look at Ahriman and Magnus during his pre-Heresy fall for illustration.

Automata on the other hand are the exact opposite of what Tzeentch stands for: they cannot be changed; they cannot be improved; they cannot be deceived.


There is no process of improvement. Change for the sake of change is all about opportunism. Planetary government look better than rebel faction? Change! Chaos stronger than order? Change!

I think you're getting a bit carried away with the idea of opportunism (which, to be honest, I've never seen mentioned in any background). A true Tzeentchian doesn't go about selecting the most preferable from a selection of options: they seek the power they need to change the options themselves.

Tzeentch appeals to people who crave more power to achieve their goals, changing their environment to suit their desires.


I made an amendment at the end of my first post. Recruitment of sorcerers is fine - The drive to replace rubric marines is what I'm opposed to.

I don't think anyone's arguing that any of the Thousand Sons would want to completely replace their Rubric servants. However, there would certainly be an awareness among some of the more irony-conscious sorcerers that the Rubrics could be supplemented with warriors more in line with Tzeentch's ideals.

Jaq Draco
06-10-2008, 02:11
There are actually now two ways to bring more TS's back into the fold.

The first one was detailed around the EoT campaigns in Fabius Bile's fluff. His big uber-womb, he managed to get some of Magus's DNA to create some new warriors, that and the World Eaters harangued him for more psycho surgery on the new recruits

secondly, they place the shattered armour on a slave and through possession a new TS comes about, but he is still just empty armour, like the life force acts as feedstcok for the new spirit to take hold

Pitalla Crimson
06-10-2008, 03:59
Well I have been working on a story about a thousand sons general named sobek that used to be a praised hero during the pre-heresy and now he embarks on a quick crusade to reclaim a lost weapon.
He and he's forces will pit against the Sisters Of Battle , Skyrar's Dark Wolves (space wolves gone rouge) and finally a tragic conclusion with the Blood Ravens.

Once I finish it I will see if it captures the eyes of GW so it can get published.