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Captain Gerntass
27-08-2008, 11:36
Right were to begin,
on three seperate occasions i have played a 1000pt game against ogre's using my meagre dogs of war, on all three ocasion i got my but kicked.
Seriosly he had more magic than i did.
i need help.
How can i beat 6 ogre bulls, 3 ogre's with cannons, a large unit of noblars, a tyrant and his body guard of iron guts plus a butcher.
When all i've got is 20 pike men with heavy armour, 10 crossbowmen, 10 duellists with shields and pistols, a dogs of war cannon(not an empire great cannon) and 2 captains and a paymaster.

quina2525
27-08-2008, 12:45
Try taking a lvl 2 wizard instead of a captain. This might help you out in the magic-department :P

If i were you it try and shoot your cannon into the flank of the Ironguts.

madden
27-08-2008, 13:53
Shooting, static res and anything that effects leadership, and at 1000pts hes not aload a tyrant as thats lord level the best armour hes got is 5+ so most crossbows and pistols will kill pistols are fast cav yes, so move shoot and run rinse and repeat it works.

Malorian
27-08-2008, 14:52
Ogres die very quickly to pikes. That one unit that has pikes and crossbows is even more nasty.

Braad
27-08-2008, 19:27
If you don't take wizards, its not really a surprise that he outmagics you... I agree with at least one wizard, but maybe even something nastier. I believe the truthsayer (lvl3) and the dark emissary (lvl4) are only a hero and rare choice, so accessable for a 1000 point army? Okay, they may to pricey, but you could check them out. Otherwise at least a wizard.

Also, don't trust to much on cannons. They can be nice, but are not necessarily godlike. I found that something big and hitty in CC can often do a lot more, especially when the enemy doesn't have things like expensive single wound knights.

Captain Gerntass
28-08-2008, 14:53
i would take a wizard but don't have one.
i forgot to mention the 6 ogre bulls with great weapons, 2 hand weopons and light armour i've got.
Plus i don't have a very big budget.
I don't know the rules for ogre kindoms so i didn't know about the tyrant.
My oppenent always sends his noblars after the cannon no matter were i place it so most rounds usualy consists of me blasting them to pieces until either most of my army is dead or my cannon blows itself up.
Any more advide would be great
thanks

Urgat
28-08-2008, 15:13
Heh? Then ignore the gnobblars ;) You're wasting your shots on them, so just let them get your canon, and shoot the ogres themselves. Sure, he'll get the canon at one point, but two dead ogres will help you more than a handful of gnobblars. That's what he wants you to do, really, so let him have your canon, and shoot the ogres while the canon is not dead yet.
Then, if you're on a very tight budget, I don't doubt he will let you proxy the mage with something else, or he's an ass.

Malorian
28-08-2008, 17:40
Just keep the cannon inbetween two units of troops so that the gnoblars can't get it. (Frontage of gnoblars is greater than space between troops.)

Thomus Darkblade
29-08-2008, 01:42
Get some cavalry! one of the strengths of the DoW list is that they have both light and heavy cavalry in core. A box of Empire or Bretonian Knights or Pistoleers converted up could play that role on the cheap.

H cav can outcharge the ogres, and reliably hurt them with a higher WS and good strength.
Light cav can outmaneuver and march block them, redirect thier charges etc.

It sounds like your problem is that your pikemen are too vulnerable. None of your units can really hold the ogres for long, so the pikes will be consistently charged in the flank where they're terrible

Realisticly, your army needs an override. Duelists aren't going to cut it, you need another unit to guard the pike's flank ( dwarves, norse, paymasters guard) These units will form your battle line while weaker units ( cavalry, duelists) hunt down your opponents weaker things. ( against ogres this is tough. Your opponent lacks warmachines, fast cav and skirmishers, they typical "weak" units that duellists excel against.

Ogres are going to go toe to toe with you, and you need to rise to the challenge. Take units that can either charge ogres ( other ogres, heavy cav), Take a charge from ogres ( Pikes, Dwarves, Paymasters guard) or avoid ogres (Light cavalry, duelists, Pegasus mounted characters)

Urgat
29-08-2008, 10:18
Just keep the cannon inbetween two units of troops so that the gnoblars can't get it. (Frontage of gnoblars is greater than space between troops.)

Unless he doesn't move at all, that will severly limit the usage of said canon, though.

Braad
29-08-2008, 10:32
Either proxy, as told, or save a little bit of money so you can at least buy one mage.
Also, converting one from your bits box should be possible. If it just has a book and points a finger at the enemy, its already a mage. Shouldn't be too difficult.

Malorian
29-08-2008, 13:28
Unless he doesn't move at all, that will severly limit the usage of said canon, though.

We're talking about DoW vs ogres here. The ogres ARE coming towards his lines and he has nothing to do but shoot and deal with the charge.

dal9ll
29-08-2008, 21:42
I agree with Malorian. Ogres are one of the fastest armies in Warhammer. You WILL be getting charged when fighting them. One tactic that will help is making sure that YOU do the charging wherever possible, instead of the other way around. This denies Ogres of their Bull Charge impact hits and also ensures you strike first. Face it, Ogres need that charge to strike first, given their crap Initiative and all. Take that away from them if you can.

Also, shooting their Ogre units as much as possible before getting into CC.

Bob the Butcher
06-09-2008, 00:58
Only a Bruiser at this points level for the Ogres.

Hand gunners make a mess of Ogres (Ogres) don't get much of an AS.

A unit of Knights.

Organ gun instead of cannon?

][nquist0r
07-09-2008, 01:04
Keep in mind he can not get a look out sir from your cannon unless he is in a unit that has 5 regular troopers. Sooo shoot him, and also try to draw a line to his butcher through another unit and try to snipe him too. I hate cannons when they kill my characters in my doombull list. Also, your sure you cant scrounge enough bits to build a sorcerer? I mean a little putty and a standard pole makes a staff, a regular trooper can be made to look like a mage if you have a cloak, and putty for a cowl...

ChaosCajun
07-09-2008, 02:05
What about targetting the gnoblars with the duelists? They are weak units and would free up the cannon by having the duelists on guard near it. You could put the cannon on a hill behind the foot to shoot over it. You could buy a single wizard figure (not very expensive) and use it to even out magic. Grapeshot the gnoblars if the duelists fail.

CarlostheCraven
07-09-2008, 03:30
Hi

I will try to avoid recommending new models as you have said you are on a budget.

- A couple of assumptions - your captains are on foot and the gnoblaras you are refering to are trappers, not fighters.

- A legality note - duellists cannot have both shields and pistols, so drop the shields.

Here is how I would set up your army
Paymaster - Heavy Armour
Captain - Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Crossbow
Captain - Sword of Might, Heavy Armour, Enchanted Shield, Talisman of Protection, Crossbow - He is your general

20 Pike, Full Command - I dropped the heavy armour - at best you would have a 6+ against his bulls, if he has additional hand weapons or ironfists. I spent the points on the crossbows on the captains.
10 Crossbow
10 Duellists with pistols
2 x 3 Bulls with light armour, ironfist, bellower
Cannon
999 points.

Unit by unit plan
Place the pike in a corner, angled so that flanking them will be very difficult for the ogres. Both Captains join the unit, and the paymaster stands behind them safe from being attacked and allowing them to re-roll their breaktest. The unit does not move until the ogres are within 12", at which point you should advance so that they will not get off their bull charge (within 6"). Target the leadbelchers with the captains' crossbows.

Place the Crossbow in the your deployment zone, but not on the deployment line. They will probably only get two rounds of fire off. Focus on the leadbelchers as their fire will soften your pike too much. - don't forget to ask for panic tests if you kill one - leadership is the bane of ogres, especially at 1000 points where his highest LD is 8. The iron guts are priority two and the bulls are the lowest priority.

Place the ogre bulls anywhere on your line where you feel they can force your opponent to charge - you don't want to sacrifice them charging a vastly superior unit - you want to bait him into failed charges, reducing his movement from 12" a turn to 6". Move them to about 7.5" away from them, march-blocking them and giving you a good chance to outrun their charge when you flee. Just make sure that if you run, it won't be through your other units, causing panic. The exception is the leadbelchers - if you have the opportunity to take them down, do it, especially if they are unloaded.

Place the cannon on the opposite flank to the pike and go bowling for ogres.

Place the duellists last. There are several roles you can play.
- protect the cannon from the gnoblars
- screen the pike unit from leadbelcher fire
- harass and march block the ogres in conjunction with the bulls. More bait and switch tactics.

Other key things - don't forget you can turn off their remains in play spells in your turn. Just because you don't have wizards doesn't mean you don't have two base dice to use. Prioritize the spells you need to stop - Braingobbla if it targets your pike, Trollguts and Toothcracker if it is on the unit you plan to fire at. Let the other stuff go.

Be sure your opponent is taking all the negative ogres have - leadbelchers must spend a turn not moving after they fire to reload, gnoblars must test for bickering each turn, ogres only get their impact hits if they start more than 6" away, always, always, always make them take panic tests. If your opponent takes mawseeker, make him test for stupidity. If the bruiser has a 5+ ward he had to test at the start of the game and on a one he takes a wound.

Cheers,
Carlos the Craven

d-p3h3d
07-09-2008, 08:53
My two cents: in an ogre army Gnoblars exist to draw charges where they can hold your units up in CC for a turn or two to let Bulls flank. I personally begin a frontal confrontation with support on my flanks, send calv after leadbelchers, or otherwise tie up the belchers in a manner so that I can smash the core of the army with morale failure and then proceed to mop the rest up nicely.