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blackjack
27-08-2008, 19:18
At my local club one of the senior members ran a game against my daemons using his cheesyiest list, it slaughtered me.

Now I am looking for revenge and could use some help. I can get ahold of almost anything in the daemon army book.

His list

3 warp engeeners with 5 dispel scrolls between them

1 General (not sure what he has)

7 blocks of clan rats (20 each I belive)

7 Rat guns

10 Jezzails

2 blocks of 20 slaves.

At 2000pts what would you recommend Daemons do to take this down?

ROCKY
27-08-2008, 19:38
well due to him completely utilizing numbers and of course dispelling i would suggest lots of fast units to get into combat and you could try a bloodthirster (dont know how it will do against all these numbers. you could also try terrorbombing.

Malorian
27-08-2008, 19:45
What list did you play him with? I can easily see how the low model count of the Tz list would lose to this.

Scaven are the kings at anti-elite.

The best thing against a list like this is just lots of infantry. Load up on core and just march across the board. With about the same number of units you can avoid being countercharged and can guard your own flanks, and in combat you'll walk all over him.

Out of the different core I'd say deamonettes are the best way to go because they will cross the board the fastest and can out range him for the charge.

(On a side note: Reme wants to have a go at my vamps too.)

blackjack
27-08-2008, 19:56
I played him with my regular A game list.

Thirster w firestorm blade, fury and armor of k
Herald of tz naked
3 x10 horrors
4 x 5 hounds
Masque
6 flamers of tz (this was a change from my regular 2 x2 fiends which do work better in this list.)


Turn one terror bomb did nothing as most of his units were LD 10 from his general and his rank bonus to LD.


He then shot my Thirster back to hell with Jezzails and a rat gun. My dogs got shot up and where tarpited by his big clan rat blocks while the rat guns mowed them down.

5 dispel scrolls + Dispel dice put the hammer to my magic phase for two turns. My flamers were able to kill 2 rat guns and take a clan block below half before being shot up by the jezzies.

Please note I have no complaints about my opponents army, I admire it and now am intent on beating it.

Braad
27-08-2008, 20:19
If a list that consists of mainly infantry is also considered cheese nowadays, then what is not anymore?!?

But anyway, what usually works good against cheap infantry is something that does a lot more damage then the infantry block can produce in static CR, since they are not likely to much damage back. What I can see in your list, is no real killing power that can also take some damage. A thirster is nice, but its still a large target with only limited wounds it can suffer, especially against warp lightning cannons.

Maybe go a bit easier on big characters, and focus on some larger hard hitting units?
Focus something on the general, if you take him down, other things should be easier.

blackjack
27-08-2008, 20:40
"If a list that consists of mainly infantry is also considered cheese nowadays, then what is not anymore?!?"

Don't you know?

A cheesy list is any list that "wins too much".

I personally don't belive in cheese. Some armies are more interesting to play and to play against but the only consensus I can find on the definition of cheese is the one I just stated.

Gaftra
27-08-2008, 20:44
using the slaneesh tricks and destroying his leadership is a good strategy. if you use the masque, -2ld banner on a herald of slaneesh in a unit of seekers with the banner that forces them to only take a stand reaction to your charge then you can just destroy a unit and keep rolling. with this combo you only have to win combat by one and you will pretty much autobreak anything in that list.

Malorian
27-08-2008, 20:46
Ahhh, and here by cheesy list I thought you were making a scaven joke ; )

Shamfrit
27-08-2008, 20:47
Warlord Assasination. Take the War-War down and the army will scutter away. Take more magic, or another unit of Flamers instead of a unit of Fleshies, and strip ranks from each unit. Drop a rank or two off each and suddenly they're LD8 base, which will start them running, and running fast.

Don't take a Thister against Jezzails. 4 Heralds here is the way to go, as is the BSB -2 LD Banner. (So they're LD6 O.o.

ROCKY
27-08-2008, 21:24
also 3 units of 10 horrors are meh (not that good and are usless under 6 models). take 2 big units (19ish) with heralds in each to give them a nice 4+wardsave and give them the banner of change, take a big unit of bloodletters with the +D3 battle resolution banner, take a herald on a jugger as well and as for your special units take hounds, and seekers with a herald with the siren song and blade of torment. as for rares take 5 flamers (one being a pyrocaster) and lastly if u have 110points left or 165 points get 2-3 fiends of slaanesh. this way you have 3 large blocks of infantry marching and shooting of your own (flamers rock) and 3 fast moving cav (ish) units which will allow you to threaten his vulnerable units.

fubukii
28-08-2008, 13:40
Well being a long time skaven player i can help you out with this dilenma


shoot and or magic the ratling guns, they have a limited range most of the spells in the army/shooting actually out range them, another fun tactic is take screamers and fly over multiple ratling guns a turn ( neting you 60 vp per gun)

His units are extremely small, just shoot them and they will run.

His list is actually rather poor, extremely low model count, prone to panic, not enough redirecting units, no tunnelers etc. most typical daemon armies should run over him.

Id suggest a thrister ( even though he has jezzails they still arent that effective vs him due to poor bs and our ward save) charge this guy into his generals unit, the jezzails or a unit with a warlock in it.

Flesh hounds - lots of wounds, good toughness have a longer charge range then a ratling guns fire range and will be hard to nuke with warped lightning

Flamers - Can shoot at his units whittling down ranks and causing panic, you can also use them to shoot ratling guns. SMall units of skaven are very easy to panic, 20 men you just need 5 kills, and with 6d6 str 4 shots most likely you will kill enough for a panic on a unit, and since he doesnt take big enough blocks they will be testing at a lower ld.

Furies - fast can deal with the jezzails treat, go mage hunting, as a last resort maybe even attempt to kill ratling guns ( which gets extremely tricky bc they can stand and shoot). One thing i have done with my furies is surround the gun with your unit so the gun cant move and see anything else. THis will save units like your flesh hounds from gettin hit by them.

Screamers - Great vs armies with alot of units, a good fly move and you can up hitting 5+ units with str 5 slashing attacks, make sure u fly over the guns and watch his face as you kill like 300+ vp in one fly move.

Plaguebearers with herald, extremely tough to kill even for skaven. they wont out cr these bad boys and they wont beat them in combat either.

polexenes
29-08-2008, 01:26
my advice would be to try 2 15 man plague berer unit with herald to soak up fire, then ALOT of daemonetts with full command and magic standards, led by masque and blood thirster with dark insanity and armour of khorne with pts left over try a few throw away units to sheild the main force or blood crushers with icon of eternal war to take them into combat early but that would be wht i would take

El Haroldo
29-08-2008, 01:35
So a vet gamer beat you, with a list you think is dirty? How do you usually go at your club? Good success rate?

Yeah, warp enginseers are a pain, yes ratling guns hurt, but it's hardly impossible.

Rather than giving us your list and asking how you should be using it, I'd like to admire your originality and sportsmanship by asking 'make a list for me that will beat him'. Good form, wish I could play you.

Putty
29-08-2008, 01:46
Skaven mini-SAD is hardly cheesy.

and you need more troops. Like Flamers and Plaguebearers.

fubukii
29-08-2008, 03:11
just remember 10 jezzails die easy to anything in cc.

and 5 jezzails on average vs thrister
10 shots 5 hits, 2.5 wounds , 1.65 wounds after ward save. so its hardly threatening to take 1 round of fire vs them, unless he gets super lucky. just charge some furies vs them kills em everytime :)

English 2000
30-08-2008, 02:22
Use screamers to take out his ratling runs (I haven't read the new book but I assume you can do multiple flyover attacks in one turn). Take at least 2 units of screamers.

I'm pretty sure his guns can't move and shoot and only have a 15" range - there is no reason your screamers should ever get shot at before they can do the fly overs.

Send harpies at his jezzails to get rid of them by turn 2 and you're laughing.

Sure he has a lot of firepower and a little more than average magic (I consider 2 level 2's to be average at 2000 points since that is what I see most often) but his guns are the only thing that is likely to put a dent in anything larger than a goblin and IIRC they have to be within 3" of the parent unit at all times meaning it is hard for him to concentrate fire (it's been a couple of years since I played Skaven).

His infantry blocks are puny for skaven...7 units of 20 clan rats and you're actually screaming cheese!!! WTF!! I really can't see anything wrong with his list, and let's face it these days with the new targetting rules for shooting skaven power levels dropped since it's now so easy to take out their guns.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
30-08-2008, 07:01
never played against them. I have heard that they can have some of the cheesiest lists made out of anyone which is ironic because they are pathetic rodents. No offense to the skaven players out there but come on; cheese list+ rats=ridicule ;)

gary0044187
30-08-2008, 07:30
never played against them. I have heard that they can have some of the cheesiest lists made out of anyone which is ironic because they are pathetic rodents. No offense to the skaven players out there but come on; cheese list+ rats=ridicule ;)

wrong. cheese + rats = happy rats

Braad
30-08-2008, 08:14
wrong. cheese + rats = happy rats

Finally someone who understands everything!

Mullitron
30-08-2008, 09:26
I would recommend going infantry heavy with several small units to support. Big blocks of whatever infantry you like (tho i would suggest daemonettes or plaguebearers) supported by all the small great support units daemons have such as screamers/fiends to take on their shooting/magic. Might want to leave the bloodthirster behind to allow more units.

klstrider28
30-08-2008, 17:33
I reccomend slaanesh in this case. Daemonettes are built to destroy lightly armoured troops. Fiends are great flankers with a great movement value. The Masque combined with the -2 LD banner can also be quite a threat to skaven. Furies are great for jezzail hunting. Same goes for screamers. A BT seems a bit of a waste IMO for this fight. There is always the nurgle way however...