PDA

View Full Version : Help Against Dark Elves! (Hordes)



John Vaughan
28-08-2008, 05:05
Hey all! I just got ousted by Dark Elves today, and it sucked. Granted, I am known for my somewhat foolhardy lists, but I wasnt expecting such a bad defeat. It was a 1500 pt game, and here was my list:

Exalted Champ. 90
Mark of Tzeentch 10
Helm of Many Eyes 25
Great Weapon 15
Daemonic Mount 40

Exalted Champ 90
Mark of Slaanesh 20
Whip of Pleasure 40
Daemonic Mount 40

Aspiring Champion 70
Mark of Tzeentch 10
Battle Standard (is that the name?) 25
Banner of the Gods 125

8 Chosen Knights ??? (Dont wanna think right now)
Mark of Tzeentch 20

20 Chosen Warriors ???(head hurts...)
Shields 20
Mark Tzeentch 20
Command 30

10 Warriors w/Shields 130
Command 30

He had 3 units of 10 Crossbowmen, 2 Bolt Throwers, 6-8 Cold one Knights, 20 or so black guard, black guard special character, 2 sorceresses, and 8 dark riders. What do I do to take that out? The slaanesh hero took out the Cold Ones by himself, (Much to my splendour) and the Tzeentch Champ took out the dark riders by himself (To my joy) But my chosen were raped royaly by the black guard, and were flanked by the crossbowmen. I would lose combat, even when I would inflict over 8 wounds per turn.

What should I do differently? I have over 4500 pts of chaos, so I have a really flexible list availability.

EdFireborn
28-08-2008, 05:40
do i have to ask if you were using the Hordes of Chaos army book, or the white dwarf list? if your using the book i recommend dropping the chosen down, and getting some maruders or something as cannonfodder for the rest of your army, 3x10 crossbowmen is 30 shots a turn + bolt throwers + magic + dark riders (if they have rxb) so troops you can sacrifice to get your awesome characters/units into CC is worth it

John Vaughan
28-08-2008, 07:01
It was the White Dwarf edition of the rules. I have used Murauders before, and their performance makes me want to puke. I am a very character dependant player, so Murauders to me are mainly core fillers. I try to maximize my army to be as highly effective at killing the enemy as possible, so murauders dont usually stand as a priority, fodder or not, though I think I will try the idea next time.

Nedar
28-08-2008, 09:20
Give him two months of happiness and the decimate him when your new book comes out and your characters can destroy his army by themselves :evilgrin:

John Vaughan
28-08-2008, 21:16
The funny thing about that is that in 2000 pts, I field a Lord of Chaos wielding the Chaos Runesword and Armor of Damnation, and an enchanted shield riding a Dragon. All in all, a single model that has a 1+ armor save, rides the scariest kind of dragon in the game (save possibly for High Elf dragons) has a 6+ ward from Tzeentch mark, all but impossible to hit in CC, and gains wounds. My personal best for gaining wounds was in a battle where he began with his usual 3, and ended with 24. It would take 4 lucky cannon shots to kill that many wounds!

The reason why I bring this up is that the next time I fight this player, it will be in the 2000pt tier of the ladder system. :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin:

DarkStarr
29-08-2008, 00:39
well 3X 10 xbow men is accually 60 shots because de comander fires 2 shots not one if they have half a brain. I am a de player but putting that many points in one dragon lord seems a bit of a risk but can be pulled off, one assasin with manbane and the other ability that gives him xtra attacks can kill a dragon like tissue paper so watch out for those assasins with a expensive monster like that, if your good units are getting wiped bye his black guard you might want to switch it up, possibly go more calvery and chariots, some maraders on horse back to march block and harras and kill his bolt throwers. Your fielding a slow lumbering army with units that are not as good as his why spend points on chosen warriors when black guard eat them to pieces? You need to match his speed and sending in cheap fast troops to tie up his archers is pricless, because your going to be out classed out shot and out manuvered if you dont and hes gonna run circles around you and laugh while he picks you to pieces, good luck.

Sashu
29-08-2008, 01:19
The new Dark Elves greatest strength is also their greatest weakness, hatred. If you want to control any one dark elf unit you can, all it takes is some small cheap disposable units for you it would be Dogs. What you will need to do is block off his main blocks with a unit of dogs. This will force him to charge your dogs or spend several turns going around. The way to place your dogs will force him to overrun in one direction or another. This will set you up for a flank charge which is really all you need.

Edonil
29-08-2008, 01:34
uhmm...you can't take the Armor of Damnation and the Enchanted Shield...both are magical armor selections...

Sashu
29-08-2008, 01:36
uhmm...you can't take the Armor of Damnation and the Enchanted Shield...both are magical armor selections...

But they are different types, therefore it is legal. He could also take a magical helm, but NOT another shield.

DarkStarr
29-08-2008, 01:39
The new Dark Elves greatest strength is also their greatest weakness, hatred. If you want to control any one dark elf unit you can, all it takes is some small cheap disposable units for you it would be Dogs. What you will need to do is block off his main blocks with a unit of dogs. This will force him to charge your dogs or spend several turns going around. The way to place your dogs will force him to overrun in one direction or another. This will set you up for a flank charge which is really all you need.

when does hatred make you auto follow dogs? I thought it just gave you re- rolls to missed hits in the first round of combat.

vorac
29-08-2008, 02:00
You have to pursue when you have hatred, so you could charge in with the hounds to hopefully lose the combat and then watch the DE chase after them while you set up a flank charge

DarkStarr
29-08-2008, 03:40
well thats a very risky tactic considering those dogs will more than likely be dead and if you try it against corsairs they have nets that can slow them down. or just shoot them or both and if your banking on that alone to work it probably won't.

John Vaughan
29-08-2008, 04:15
A unit of 10 ought to be able to last long enough to flee. The problem I had was in his setup. He had his Black Guard with a unit of crossbows on both flanks, so there was no way with my limited maneuverability to charge him without recieving a flank charge the next turn.

The intention of the Daemonic-Mounted Champions was to annihilate the Bolt Throwers and the crossbowmen, but they ended up getting charged by frenzied Cold One Riders, and Dark Riders. Luckily, both of his units met a horribly sticky end there. My main problem was that they just didnt make it in time to take out the throwers.

On the Dragon, I have used it against armies that most would consider suicidal (Dwarfs, Empire, pretty much anyone with cannons). On top of that, nobody has ever managed to take it out, neither the rider or the dragon itself. With the track record its had, and the experience with it that I've had, I have no problem facing those risks.

I like the idea with the dogs tho, I will definitely keep it in mind. Question: What about a Hellcannon? I thought for a while about taking one, but eventually decided against it because of my inexperience with war machines. (Chaos player from birth=Troll with war machines)

Kalec
29-08-2008, 06:09
It is great if the enemy is susceptible to panic. Otherwise, not worth it.

Hounds are going to have trouble with elves, because repeater crossbows shred them like nobodies business. You are going to need big blocks to ensure they survive long enough to properly screen what you want them to.

Mullitron
29-08-2008, 08:47
Chariots are good against elves, ok with 60 crossbow shots a turn they may have little chance of getting into combat but hounds can help you there. But with the elves low toughness and armour means a charge supported by a chariot can really cripple elf units (even black guard with a bit of luck). Also by charging his black guard even with your chosen your playing how he want you to. Black guard are a great defensive unit that rarely run ( i believe there stubborn with the character leading them) dont charge them head on with crosssbow units on the side. Instead attack the stuff thats not designed to take charges from your heavy cavalry kill all the crossbowmen, casters etc. After killing his knights his only potential to to any close combat damage was from the black guard, deny him the option to do so.

John Vaughan
29-08-2008, 21:36
I see. On the point of the crossbows, if he does use his crossbow shots to take out cheap hounds, then those sad puppies are doing what was intended. I also think that they could be pretty good for taking out bolt thrower crews. Thanks for the help!

gaiaterra
29-08-2008, 21:52
But they are different types, therefore it is legal. He could also take a magical helm, but NOT another shield.

Unless it says in a magical piece of armour's description that you can it and another piece of magical armour you can not have two pieces of magic armour.

If you can take a magic shield and magic suit of armour they can be stacked, but only if you are allowed to take the 2 bits of kit. Check the Magic Armour rules in the Magic Items section on page 121 of ther rulebook.

Little Aaad
30-08-2008, 19:15
My Dark Elves hate 3 things.

1) Lots of Shooting - You dont have any...
2) Magic Missiles - I've heard you can take fireball and lore of death. Maybe even Creeping Death from Shadow. Hit them Black Guard with this spell and watch them drop like a bad smell.
3) Being Charged - DE can NOT resist a charge from even goblins. Low T and next to no Armour means they die quickly.

John Vaughan
04-09-2008, 02:25
On the contrary, these DE delighted in my foolishly laid assault. While it is true that their low T and AS is their bane, their I6 is what keeps them in the game.

Conotor
04-09-2008, 03:35
2 RbTs and 30 RxB men? If you have an eleat army, hide behind terrain and get a draw.

gaiaterra
04-09-2008, 10:24
2 RbTs and 30 RxB men? If you have an eleat army, hide behind terrain and get a draw.

I'm interested in your ideas and would like to subscribe to your news letter.

The core of my DE army is 2 RBT and 20 RxB. At 2000 points I am running that, a 20 man spearman unit, 14 black guard with the banner of Elfishness and Kouran, a lvl 2 sorceress with a scaraficial dagger and Malekith on Cold One in a unit of 9 CoK with the Banner of Cold Blood. The list is not that good against gun lines but it hold its own against most other armies. Its major problem is that if Malekith goes stupid the magic phase is naff and its the magic where you have to put in the heavy blows

Templar_Of_The_Night
04-09-2008, 10:46
The problem with Kouran is that as soon as his name crops up you opponent will do everything to kill him asap, which is not entirly hard which is y i dont see the point in taking him in my army, hes gd but a points sink. He just does not have the armour to stay in a fight.

gaiaterra
04-09-2008, 15:16
The problem with Kouran is that as soon as his name crops up you opponent will do everything to kill him asap, which is not entirly hard which is y i dont see the point in taking him in my army, hes gd but a points sink. He just does not have the armour to stay in a fight.

Yes that the point of him, my oponent sees him and spends time trying to beat down my unbreakable and then stubborn and immune to psychology unit. It gives the Witch King time and space to absolutely dominate the magic phase.

SirA
04-09-2008, 15:34
some armies just cant match DE - thats my optinion..

sure a lousy DEplayer will loose to an uber-O&G player.. but equally experienced players will have a hard time beating DE

isidril93
04-09-2008, 21:37
But they are different types, therefore it is legal. He could also take a magical helm, but NOT another shield.

nope...one magic armour period.

@gaiaterra how did you get malekith on CO. did you just use the normal malekith and mounted him on a cold one or did you convert one? also did anyone notice how malekith is the only model not to be shown in the book?

Prince of Caledor
04-09-2008, 23:17
i agree with those who say the best way to fight a de army with black guard is to kill everything else first. if you can get it off, try and hit them with the tzeentch spell that makes the unit attack itself. elven infantry hate that spell because of the whole "glass cannon" thing.

John Vaughan
05-09-2008, 03:18
I would love to use the old rules, in which case I would have had a cold-hearted reign of chaos during his magic phase. My army used to consist of a lvl 4 caster and 3 lvl 2 casters, all tzeentch. The whole army was marked with tzeentch, so I always had at least 10 dispel dice. Does that work in the new WD rules? Not so much, because my casters have become sucky-style combatants, which is where I need them.

gaiaterra
05-09-2008, 19:15
@gaiaterra how did you get malekith on CO. did you just use the normal malekith and mounted him on a cold one or did you convert one? also did anyone notice how malekith is the only model not to be shown in the book?

I converted him out of the new plastics, I used the Empier Generals cloak, green stuffed a circlet of iron and raised the hight of his cold one to be above the other knights using slate etc.

I also noticed the lack of pictures of him, mind his model is old and the dragon is naff. My next plan is a conversion of him on the Black Chariot, I wont use it in game as it just screems shoot me to my oponent but I like the idea of the conversion.

Lord Dan
05-09-2008, 19:32
20 black guard? Seems like a bit of a point sink in a game this size, especially with their special friend.

Take marauders. They're not chaos knights, so their "performance" should make you want to puke, but then again you shouldn't be using them to perform in much. Their jobs are to hold table quarters, take arrows and bullets for your highly expensive warriors, and run up flanks.

I have the same problem explaining this concept to new DE players who avoid warriors completely, using the excuse that they're not as good as their special-choice bretheren. Every army needs cannon fodder, and yours currently has none. ;)

gaiaterra
05-09-2008, 21:10
20 black guard? Seems like a bit of a point sink in a game this size, especially with their special friend.

I only take 14 and Kouran, I have 20 warriors whos job it is to move forward and power up my level 2 magic user, and in my army the CoK and the Witch King are the points sink, the black guard are just a small points ditch that take any charge on the flank.

I work on destroying my oponent with magic, then destroying them with shooting and once I'm ready my mobile magic platform of Malekith and his knights charge and expect to win, if they dont I have done something wrong.

John Vaughan
06-09-2008, 22:26
I think I will try magic on him next time. He had almost no protection from it. Plus, with my reputation, he wouldnt see it coming. 3 lvl 2's, and a lvl4. Sounds fun.

Kalec
06-09-2008, 22:34
Lore of fire would be especially deadly against DE, with the magic missile spells taking out skirmishers and fast cav, while wall of fire devastates infantry blocks. A couple lore of metal level 2's, a lore of fire level 2 and 4, with the appropriate magic toys, should see you through.

BattleofLund
07-09-2008, 16:10
Chariots are good against elves, ok with 60 crossbow shots a turn they may have little chance of getting into combat but hounds can help you there.

I disagree here. With T5 and 3+ save (4+ after Armour-Piercing), a Chariot or two should soak up the Dark Elf bolts and still reach the enemy lines. But with some screening Warhounds you could make sure even a Khorne-marked (frenzied) Chariot gets wherever you want it to be.

Cheap Knights in smaller units could hunt missile troops, and in the endgame gather with the rest of the army to multiple-bash the Black Guard. Even when Black Guard have ASF (if they have the magic banner), 2A and S4, Chaos Knights will take less casualties than they dispense. Except from the Special Character loony in the front rank, of course.

John Vaughan
08-09-2008, 04:53
Sweet, I like lore of Fire idea...

I did take chosen knights, and they fought really well against the black guard, they were just outnumbered, and that darned Kouran character was wasting them to no end.

Bringer of the red dawn
08-09-2008, 13:16
first of all, i get the feeling u were using the hordes of chaos list, which isnt cool, the new list is out for a reason, you can handle a 2 months of the new list before the beefed WoC book comes out

as for fighting Dark elves, you need to use your chosen knight to run roughshod over his crossbowmen, also, consider making your chosen unit a normal warrior unit, and get 2 units of 15, or 20 is u can afford it ( actually, 18 is a really good option( 3 ranks of 6). give them Hand wep an shield, and Mark of Khorne, and they are badass holding troops, ( 3+ save in combat) and you will still get enough attacks to kill those weak elves. Also, u need to use some hounds, say two units of 6, use the hounds as kamakazy distractions, and throw his line off balance just a little bit, Hounds dont achieve much, but the almost invisible dissaray is key to getting your warriors into combats they can win, meaning not getting flanked or reared, also, dont be afraid to use hounds as a screen and flee from charges, if you tilt the hound unit you can make it so they flee around your warriors, and no resulting panic check. realisticly, u need some shooting, but HoC doesnt have any, so you need to neutralize his bolt throwers and take his black gaurd out by flanking them, or rear charging them so you can win combats while you hack them down ( in this case the Black Guard are unbreakable, but if flanked, their champion with the S6 weapon cant attack you, and you are not going to take break tests... also, if the DE player knows anything about strategy, he will give his one big unit the banner of hag grief, which give ASF, beware of executioners with this combo...its real bad

the point im trying to make, is that black guard or executioners are not to be engaged unless you can flank or rear charge it, and also you need to be able to kill them quickly, a protracted fight between DE elite infantry is really bad.. really bad

Defender of Ulthuan
08-09-2008, 23:03
A few things, but please don't take them as anything but positive criticism:

1.Your list is illegal. You need more core, and you can only take one magic armour, including magical shields.
2.I know you really like characters, but your army is pitifully small, even for a Warriors list.
3.No magic/magic defense. This can be a big problem, especially when facing elves.

Now that that's out of the way, a few (hopefully) helpful sugguestions:

1.Try fielding more units. Limit characters/chosen! Even with an elite army, you can have a fair number of units. Try with a few, small warrior blocks with great weapons, shields, champions, and musicians; units of 12 work well this way at "only" 198 points (<600pts is a small enough number for core in 2000pt games).

2.Pick up the pace! Take more units of knights, and at least one unit of horsemen! units of 6 knights with champion+musician are only 198pts! 5 Marauder horsemen with javelins and flails are cheap and can march block! Your army is good a combat; get them there!

3.Magic, magic, magic. Your units all have high Ld. You really don't need to spend half your army on a lord that will never give your troops his Ld. Dragons are nice, but too expensive in games under at least 2250. You might want one combat hero to lead your charge, but aside from that, you need magic, and you need to dominate the phase.

4.Screening: Your units (especially the foot-troops) are weak to firepower; take hound-shields!

5. Last, but certainly not least, you need some heavy hitters; CHARIOTS! I usually take two to power up charges and take out those pesky elves!

My standar list, just so ya know:

EC w/BSteed+Flail-120pts

lvl2 Soc w/BSteed+Dscroll-150pts
lvl2 Soc w/BSteed+Dscroll-150pts
lvl2 Soc w/BSteed+Dscroll-150pts

12xWarriors w/GW, Shields, Champ,+ Musician-198pts
12xWarriors w/GW, Shields, Champ,+ Musician-198pts
12xWarriors w/GW, Shields, Champ,+ Musician-198pts

5xHounds-30pts
5xHounds-30pts
5xHounds-30pts
5xHounds-30pts

6xMarauder Horsemen w/Javelins, Flails, Musician-120pts

Chariot-100pts
Chariot-100pts

6xKnights w/Champ+Musician-198pts (general goes here)
6xKnights w/Champ+Musician-198pts

And sometimes I'll switch the hounds for 2 spawn, used quite effectively as roadblocks.

There it is; nothing fancy, but I win most of my games :D.

Defender

Defender of Ulthuan
08-09-2008, 23:17
ps.-I like the lore of shadow for unseen lurker (especially), pit, and the creeping death.

BattleofLund
09-09-2008, 00:59
first of all, i get the feeling u were using the hordes of chaos list, which isnt cool, the new list is out for a reason, you can handle a 2 months of the new list before the beefed WoC book comes out

Apart from the fact that the OP lists points values corresponding with the White Dwarf WoC list (i.e., Exalted Champion 90, Great Weapon 15, Daemonic Mount 40 etc), not the HoC list, he also has this to say:


It was the White Dwarf edition of the rules.

John Vaughan
09-09-2008, 23:52
What isnt cool about the HOC book? Its even harder to win with that, simply because point costs for base units is so much higher, not to mention that marks of Tzeentch for characters START at 70! Oh yeah, daemon princes? Yeah, its 150 for them! Tell me then, whats not cool about winning with a point/modelhandicap like that?

Kalec
10-09-2008, 17:52
The part that isn't cool about it, is that it isn't legal anymore.

It was fun for making the most horridly overpriced characters ever, like a level 4 chaos lord with mark of Tzeentch on a dragon with a full set of toys, 3 exalted champs with mark of tzeentch on barded steeds, and about 30 warriors because you don't have any points left.

John Vaughan
11-09-2008, 00:03
And for whatever reason, this was the best way to play Tzeentch. It makes sense to me, if I tell him that he can use Teclis if I can use the old rules. Simple enough, and it seems fair considering that all I have with the WD is 6 pages of rules, and he has a whole book AND special characters. It would be awesome to take Gaulrach or Archaon against him, but can I? No, because the book is "outdated." In this way, it makes it more fair for me. Or I could just wait another month and a half...