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Starchild
28-08-2008, 08:37
Salutations!

What is the optimal size for a unit of cavalry?

I'm asking because I'd like to get into Fantasy with the new Dark Elves. If I get 10 Cold One Knights, should I keep them as two separate units of 5 each with full Command? ...or make them one unit of 10 with full Command?

What works best for 10 knights? :confused:

Lordsaradain
28-08-2008, 08:47
Optimal heavy cavalry unit size for all races (except bretonnia) is about 5-7, including characters.

You want to put all in the front rank so you can get as many attacks as possible, but its seldom worth buying a second rank, because cavalry is generally too expensive.

Fearcausing cavalry is a different matter ofc, as you can autobreak your enemies if your unitstrenght is high enough.

I'd still field your cold one knights in 2 units of 5. That way, they hit twice as hard(because then you can declare two charges, if you feild a unit of 10 only one will be fighting anyway) and the risk of failing the stupidity tests for two units in the same turn is much smaller than failing it for only one unit.

ubertechie
28-08-2008, 08:53
The optimal number in terms of delivering attacks is 6 - this ensures that all models will fight against any ranked up unit (minimum width = 5 * 20mm = 100mm which allows you to get 6 25 mm wide models into contact using corner to corner)

However the optimal number is sometimes 5 as this can make the unit as cheap as possible - 5 models no upgrades - this is a good way to take fast cavalry or cavalry units as disposable flankers

Hope that helps

Starchild
28-08-2008, 08:55
I'd still field your cold one knights in 2 units of 5.

Fair enough...

Is it worth it to get the Champion, Standard, and Musician for both units? Do Knight units lose any lance attacks by doing so?

I ask because I'd like to keep the two units as distinct as possible, from a modeling standpoint. Otherwise, I'd be happy to power them up as much as possible, expensive as they are (points wise).

Braad
28-08-2008, 11:19
A few more than 5 is nice to prevent panic tests and prevents loosing attacks very early on, due to casualties from shooting/magic.

And as an O&G player, I like to flesh out most units a bit, like up to 10, but I wouldn't do this with the more elite armies (though it is questionable how much the difference is nowadays, but the feeling still remains).

In your case, I would go with 2 units of 5, since this also covers a bit for failed stupidity, and gives only a small chance that both fail at the same time. That way, the could cover each other a bit.

Malorian
28-08-2008, 13:18
I like units of 7. It's been working well.

Hvidponi
28-08-2008, 15:21
I would say 6, or if your are figthing against large infantry 7... More than that is just for shooting casulaties and maybe outnumber... Anyways, If they should be winning and killing people I would take 6+ (or 5+ with character) with full command... If they should be taking care of flanks, do some damage but not necesarrily winning I would take 5 with champ an musician...

semersonp
28-08-2008, 15:51
What is the optimal size for a unit of cavalry?... What works best for 10 knights?

between 5 and 7 models... six is my personal preference... able to lose a few without interrupting the lines too much during deployment...

i would advise against two rank of cavalry... except in like 5000 point games where theres no room for anything :)

also always be wary of exposing your cavalry flanks to things like bolt throwers... no armour save going through 5 knights... bites :p

conversely, be on the lookout for where YOUR bolt throwers can do the same to opposing cav!


Is it worth it to get the Champion, Standard, and Musician for both units? Do Knight units lose any lance attacks by doing so?

if there is a hero/lord in the unit definitely get the champion... as for the standard and musician they aren't bad additions if you expect your unit to not only support rnf troops but go chasing other cavalry, do some fighting solo, etc...

and no, unit musicians and standard bearers do not lose attacks by virtue of being musicians and standard bearers... [they are described as being the 'crack' troops of the squad and can fight just as wel as their mates while carrying a fifty pound banner or blatting away on a horn... hardcore! :)]

badgeraddict
28-08-2008, 16:49
I take 5-6 if I am playing anything other than Bretonnia.

Even then, I only take 8 knights and place a character in the unit.

prince_dios
28-08-2008, 18:20
As was said before, you can risk going bigger with fear causing cavalry. The classic 4 x 2 unit it's all that bad, especially since it will be hard for the unit to keep the rank bonus anyways.

Optimizing the number of CC attacks doesn't, you know, take into account the arrows, spells, and artillery shots that are often aimed at heavy cavalry first.

FunkyRatDemon
28-08-2008, 23:46
I'd run a Brick of 5 w/ Full command, then throw in a Hero choice to join them. Often I have 4 (of 6) hit, and thats usually more then enough

Thomus Darkblade
29-08-2008, 01:05
Stupidity on the cold one knights is a huge liability, Therefore I like to run smaller units without banners (6 with a musician is ideal). A "nilla" unit with a standard should either go for the banner of the cold blood, or the D3 CR on the charge banner.

So if you have 10 models
5-5 musicians
or 7 w/ FC and a character, with the spare cold ones pulling a chariot!

Starchild
29-08-2008, 07:42
and no, unit musicians and standard bearers do not lose attacks by virtue of being musicians and standard bearers... [they are described as being the 'crack' troops of the squad and can fight just as wel as their mates while carrying a fifty pound banner or blatting away on a horn... hardcore! :)]

Wow, that's good to know... I thought the models that don't have lances, don't get lance attacks. Here I was thinking it was all WYSIWYGy.


I'd run a Brick of 5 w/ Full command, then throw in a Hero choice to join them. Often I have 4 (of 6) hit, and thats usually more then enough

Good, I'm glad I picked up the Dreadlord on the Cold One then. I know who he'll be hanging out with! ;)


Stupidity on the cold one knights is a huge liability, Therefore I like to run smaller units without banners (6 with a musician is ideal). A "nilla" unit with a standard should either go for the banner of the cold blood, or the D3 CR on the charge banner.

So if you have 10 models
5-5 musicians
or 7 w/ FC and a character, with the spare cold ones pulling a chariot!

Yeah, it would be fun to make a chariot with the new models. I may just do that.

***

Thanks for the feedback, everyone!

Cheers,
Starchild :skull:

Crazy Harborc
30-08-2008, 03:09
How many points will be in the armies? How many bodies will your opponents use?

At the local GW store starting with the first campaign (4-5 years ago?)...small units of 5 did "okay" in 1000-1500 point armies. Over the time until now, the number of cav in units has gone from 5-6 to 10(these days).

In most of the games I have been in (outside of store leagues etc.), games of 2500 (or more) points are the norm. Cav units are 10-15 bodies for HtH units. Shooters are often in units of 5-7 bodies, with two or more being the number of the units in a given army.;)

All that said......do what appeals to you. Start with 5 body units. These days alot depends on how many are in the boxes you buy.

Anywayyee....that's what I experienced around here.:)

TheWarSmith
30-08-2008, 05:19
You also need to consider the fact that they're special, and given the EXTREME competition for special slots in the DE army, sometimes you just can't afford the slot.

Search around, cause there are about 2 other threads on this exact topic.

You have to keep in mind that your unit will get shot/magicked. A unit of 6 to start probably will not be that strong by the time it hits combat. Hence, personally, a unit of 10 seems a strong choice to ensure that the unit will be large enough to autobreak even fully ranked infantry on the charge.

As for command, keep in mind that the champion can take magic items. Taking the ring of hotek or a null stone can be a pretty nasty choice, as your opponent will quickly discover NOT to cast magic on the knights. Just keep him away from your own wizards

Dragon Prince of Caledor
30-08-2008, 06:59
in 2000pts i take 5 dragon princes and a bsb noble. Anything bigger i would likely take 6 dragon princes. however ten to a unit is a complete waste. Points spent on... not ranks if your enemy kills one, no attacks (except them pesky brets!), and maybe outnumber if you are lucky.. two units of 5 would be better. A character in atleast one of them would be a must.

TheDarkDaff
30-08-2008, 07:40
Coldone Knights are a bit of a special case when it come to Cavalry. i can really only see a couple of ways to play them (neither of which is great).

Use them as a small flanking unit (5-6 models with maybe a Musician) and they can take most light flankers or help out your infantry a bit with a flank charge. Do this and you are wasting their Fear due to the small unit size.

The alternative is to make a large Unit that hits like a Train (that means 10+ models plus BSB with Hydra Banner, Full Command, Ring of Hotek) and aim them at your opponents big blocks. If you do this then you are running the risk of your point sink of a unit going stupid (it works with an inverse proportion - The more critical the roll, the more likely you'll fluff it:cries:). You could counter this with the banner of Cold Blood but even that isn't fool proof and if you are going pure overkill you can throw in the +d3 Combat Res banner. The cool thing about this unit is Hatred make it much less susceptable to rubber lance sindrome. 15 S6 and 12 S4 attacks for a 6 wide Cav unit makes quite a dent and then you add in the static res of +4-6 and maybe the outnumber bonus.

Thomus Darkblade
30-08-2008, 19:24
You have to keep in mind that your unit will get shot/magicked. A unit of 6 to start probably will not be that strong by the time it hits combat. Hence, personally, a unit of 10 seems a strong choice to ensure that the unit will be large enough to autobreak even fully ranked infantry on the charge.

Ten Knights, with full command runs 315 points. They damn well better break whatever they hit on the charge!

If you fail a stupid test on this unit though, you run the risk of being charged without the ability to flee. It's better to run multiple smaller units, and not to count on them as frontal combat winners.

Little Aaad
30-08-2008, 19:55
You also need to consider the fact that they're special, and given the EXTREME competition for special slots in the DE army, sometimes you just can't afford the slot.

Search around, cause there are about 2 other threads on this exact topic.

You have to keep in mind that your unit will get shot/magicked. A unit of 6 to start probably will not be that strong by the time it hits combat. Hence, personally, a unit of 10 seems a strong choice to ensure that the unit will be large enough to autobreak even fully ranked infantry on the charge.

As for command, keep in mind that the champion can take magic items. Taking the ring of hotek or a null stone can be a pretty nasty choice, as your opponent will quickly discover NOT to cast magic on the knights. Just keep him away from your own wizards

I strongly disagree, the Special infantry are expensive and situational and difers due to preferances. My army has a unit of Executioners, thats it. Thats because Spearmen are cheap and versitile enough to be better than the elites in many situations, at a cheaper cost. Look at lists on thos forum. hardly any of them fills all of their choices and hardly any take 2 types of elite infantry, let a lone units of them.