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MrBigMr
28-08-2008, 08:43
I know there was a thread about them a while ago, but it was more about why normal dwarfs hate them, rather than what I'm interested in. And what is that? Well, everything. Ok, I've read a little here and there, but there's still some questions left unanswered by said sources, nor am I always clear what is official and what is not.

The rulebook talks of the city of Zharr-Naggrund under the Chaos dwarfs, but is this the only place for Chaos dwarfs? Are there other groups elsewhere? Do dwarfs fall to chaos all the time (well as in some bunch of them here, another there), or have the split from the main dwarf race as a whole (like the DE and WE from the HE)?

Do they have cults or factions dedicated to different gods like human Chaos worshipers, or do they have their own twisted for of it?


I'm just asking as I'm working on a Chaos dwarf army at the moment using normal dwarf rules just to make it more interesting and having some reason to make converions and modelling for the army.

I had the idea of them being from a stronghold that was known for their fine craftmanship. Then they were besieged by Slaanesh for a long time and during that time they were challenged many times to prove their skills. They managed to break the enemy off, but they became really cocky about their superior craftmanship and started challenging other forges to compete with them. In time this vanity led them to start seeking even more ways to improve their designs and in the end to break the rules, which led other dwarfs to shun them. They thought the others were just jealous and continued with their dark ways to seek knowledge and skill. But all the while they were secretly being corrupted by Slaanesh through their vanity to nudge them over the edge and finally it all paid off when they swore allegiance to the Dark Prince for all the secrets on forging superior weapons and items.

Is this type of army background anywhere fitting into the world or not?

forthegloryofkazadekrund
28-08-2008, 09:35
try going to

www.chaos-dwarfs.com

or

www.chaosdwarf.com

for more info, should find a lot of very helpful people there

Lord Lucifer
28-08-2008, 09:47
Long story short:

Dwarfs expand their empire. Dwarfs try to push past the desolation. Most Dwarfs think "This place sucks, it's not worth it, coal is useful, sure, but there's no prestige in this. We're turning back", other dwarfs are undeterred and won't give up, so press on, forming the city that will become Zhar-Naggrund.
Earthquakes/volcanic flow/expansion of Realm of Chaos happens, Zhar-Naggrund gets cut off
Dwarfs there get desperate, feel abandoned
In desperation, turn to the worship of the dark God, Hashut, Father of Darkness.
Dwarfs now have priesthood of Hashut, study magic, and start doing un-Dwarf things like enforce slave labour.
Chaos Dwarfs now rampant slavers with huge industrial sector.
EPA seriously pissed by breaches of air-polution limits, FEMA called in, incapable of dealing with fictional universes outside of their mandate, pollution continues.



Those are the Chaos Dwarfs
Then there's Dwarfs that turn to Chaos, like the guy that forged the Chaos Runesword. They're completely different. Like the Elves that turn to Chaos are different to Dark Elves

Urgat
28-08-2008, 10:07
The rulebook talks of the city of Zharr-Naggrund under the Chaos dwarfs, but is this the only place for Chaos dwarfs? Are there other groups elsewhere?
There's lots of CD city scattered around the darklands (Uzkulak, the Black Fortress, etc). There's some kind of tunnel that goes under the moutains and the lands to get to I don't remember which sea (for their naval fleet), so there's probably CD settlements along the coast there too. Afaik, no other CD settlement otherwise, but they've got a fleet, they might have small colonies here and there.




Do dwarfs fall to chaos all the time (well as in some bunch of them here, another there), or have the split from the main dwarf race as a whole (like the DE and WE from the HE)?

Split, in -4000, Sigmar's calendar. Dwarfs are very resistent to chaos, it took being stranded for years and years in a land bathed by the chaos powers during the first chaos incursion.
There was "normal" dwarf mutants before (I remember a short story about Gotrek and Felix killing some), but that's long gone.


Do they have cults or factions dedicated to different gods like human Chaos worshipers, or do they have their own twisted for of it?

They all worship Hashut, the Father of Darkness.



I had the idea of them being from a stronghold that was known for their fine craftmanship. Then they were besieged by Slaanesh for a long time and during that time they were challenged many times to prove their skills. They managed to break the enemy off, but they became really cocky about their superior craftmanship and started challenging other forges to compete with them. In time this vanity led them to start seeking even more ways to improve their designs and in the end to break the rules, which led other dwarfs to shun them. They thought the others were just jealous and continued with their dark ways to seek knowledge and skill. But all the while they were secretly being corrupted by Slaanesh through their vanity to nudge them over the edge and finally it all paid off when they swore allegiance to the Dark Prince for all the secrets on forging superior weapons and items.

Well, why not? But dwarfs like that won't have any links with "chaos dwarfs" as you think them. Chaos dwarfs are really a badly named race. It's not random mutants or whatever, it is one solid, hierarchized society, and they all look the same, you could say the mutation didn't go haywire, it got channeled and is the same on every chaos dwarfs.
They also don't really meddle with other races much, excepted to get more slaves and material.
Then, they hold no allegiance to any of the Greatest Four (:p), it's Hashut and Hashut only.
And finally, I'm not sure what you mean by "fine craftship". If it's, like, pretty jewelry, finely sculpted metals or whatever, that's not them. They make big, large, crude machines powered on steam and coal, with enormous gears and mechanical parts, imagine a grand, dwarfish version of the industrial revolution in the 19th century, but on a collosal scale.


Is this type of army background anywhere fitting into the world or not?

So that army might fit in the world (though I do have difficulties picturing dwarfs falling to slaanesh, granted), but not in the propper Chaos Dwarfs fluff.

Voila, hope that helped :)

Revlid
28-08-2008, 12:15
Origins of the Chaos Dwarfs (http://www.chaos-dwarfs.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=2635)

I thoroughly enjoy the relationship between Chaos Dwarfs and Dwarfs, as it is very different to the typical fantasy ďX vs Dark XĒ relationship. Namely, while Dwarfs are thoroughly ashamed of their Eastern cousins, they are happiest (if that term can be used) simply pretending they donít exist.

Why? Dwarfs go out of their way to defeat Chaos, Greenskins, Skaven and Elves; they must have at least an equal grudge against the Chaos Dwarfs, and pursuing it makes just as much sense as pursuing their similarly-unavengeable grudges against those other races. So why donít they? Simply because the existence of the Chaos Dwarfs is, I believe, the one grudge the Western Dwarfs have accepted that they cannot avenge. Why have they accepted this? Because the grudge was never theirs to avenge. Out of all the thousands and thousands of grievances recorded in each Holdís Book of Grudges, this is the only one that the Dwarfs have truly accepted as their own fault.

Chaos? Attacked us first, wholly unnatural.
Greenskins? Attacked us first, disrespectful brutes.
Skaven? Buggers attacked us first, and theyíre foul Chaos spawn.
Elves? Betrayed our trust, displayed utter arrogance.
Chaos Dwarfs? WE were the ones at fault here.

Most Dwarfs, in the deep of their souls, accept this, and cover it up by denying the existence of the Chaos Dwarfs, defeating them where they can, and becoming angry and blustery when confronted with their existence.

The Chaos Dwarfs, on the other hand, donít. They really donít see a problem. As far as they care, they were hit with something that didnít kill them, and it made them stronger. They were thrust into the fires of Chaos and, rather than burning, were reforged. They were denied help from one avenue, so they took it from another. This initial lack of understanding makes the story of a Chaos Dwarf ambassador approaching the Dwarfen High King far more palatable to me, as before I found it, well, rather silly.

This lack of acceptance of what they had to do to survive is what has led them to treat the Westerners as inflexible prigs and backward hicks, not the fact that they donít worship Chaos/Hashut. This base understanding of what must be done to survive lays the basis for their vast trading (and slaving) empire: Ogres, Men, Beasts, Daemons, Dwarfs, Goblins, Orcs, Elves, they donít care, so long as their end of the deal will prolong their survival (and make it a damn sight more comfortable). Theyíd happily trade with the Empire, Brettonia, and High Elves if it werenít for their shortsighted condemnation of their methods of survival.

High Elves and Dark Elves are polar opposites; Dwarfs and Chaos Dwarfs inhabit dark and light-tinged greys. That said, there should be no mistaking the fact that Chaos Dwarfs are evil. It may have started as survival, using intimidation tactics to scare off vastly outnumbering Greenskin tribes or slaves to support a then-dwindling population, but now slavery, torture, living sacrifice and brutal sadism is part of their culture. True Neutral they ain't.

Lord Lucifer
28-08-2008, 13:51
True Neutral they ain't.

Thou Shalt Not Invoke D&D Alignment When Discussing the Morality of the Races of the Warhammer World :p


It'd be interesting to know how far the rot has spread in the Dawi'Zharr. If the sadism and cruelty and live sacrifices are supported by the priesthood of Hashut, and merely tolerated as necessary by the citizenry of Zhar-Naggrund, or if the entire society takes perverse joy in sadistic acts?

The thing that's most interesting about Warhammer cultures... actually, I'll rephrase that.
Warhammer cultures/nations/factions etc. are most interesting when discussed in terms of motivations, goals, and desires, rather than polarized into convenient categories to allow alliance games/campaigns to work on a team-on-team mentality (rather than a goal-oriented campaign)

You can look at the Warhammer world and just break it into Goodies and Baddies (the Goodies being Empire, Bretonnia, High/Woodsy/Superfluous Elves*, Dwarfs, Dogs of War, and Lizzies. The Baddies being all TEH EVIL! races of 'Chaos', Skaven, Chaos Dwarfs, Dark Elves, and Undead).
This REALLY simplifies things, and overlooks tremendously the vast variety of personalities, factions, acts and intentions within the group, tarring polar opposites within the same race with essentially the same brush. Magnus the Pious was a good bloke who sacrificed much in the defence of his people, thoroughly good chap, whereas Boris Goldgather taxed his countrymen to death during the height of the worst plague they'd ever seen, and had his favourite donkey given a position within his Imperial Entourage, and his death by plague was celebrated rightly by all... polar opposites within the very same job)
Saying the Empire is a bunch of Good Guys overlooks all the glaring contradictions with that sentiment. Certainly the xenophobic militaristic and expansionist Imperials aren't nice guys.
However, you CAN look it like that. But it's not very deep, there's little to read into there, and all up, it lacks dramatic integrity and any sort of narrative drive. All opposition is simply going through the motions.

However, when you consider each nation on its' own merits, and each group within that, and each notable personality in those groups, and try to understand what motivates them and how they interact with other groups, how those interacting groups form a larger group to interact with yet more large groups, and up and up until you reach the global level, THEN you've got something worth sinking your intellectual teeth into.

The strongest alliance in the Warhammer world is one of necessity. Dwarf Kingdom of the World's Edge Mountains, under the High King Thorgrim Grudgebearer, and the Sigmar's Empire under the Emperor, Karl-Franz Holswig-Schleistien (sp?).
The alliance was formed with the founder of the Empire, Sigmar of the Unberogen, in recognition of his rescue of Kurgan Ironbeard, and later his aid in driving the Goblinoids east of the World's Edge Mountains at the Great battle of Blackfire Pass. The alliance is primarily a matter of honour, and secondly, one of necessity. The Empire needed the guidance and help of the Dwarfs to form in the first place, and the Dwarfs recognized they'd need a strong ally to help contend with the greenskins and other foes. This has been reinforced through many shared military endeavours (both aided the Kislevites during the Siege of Kislev), and furthermore the Cult of Sigmar has many Dwarf-friendly tenets of faith at the very heart of their religion. So much so that the Grand Theogonist is supposed to assume a Dwarven name upon assumption of the title (something that Johann Esmer scandalously refused to do!)
The alliance here is not because they're both good guys, but because they have a common goal and mutual strength aids both in their seperate endeavours. Importantly, there's little clashing in their goals. The Dawi prefer to delve into the earth, Humans rely on the land and rivers for their means of survival.

The Asur and the Empire are a different story. They have no standing alliance, remaining civil exclusively because conflict is too costly (it's unlikely the Elves have the strength to subdue the tenacious humans without destroying themselves in the process anymore, and any war of extermination waged on the Empire will bring the Dwarfs into play, Ulthuan cannot afford this... and for the Empire, Ulthuan is simply too defensible to assault, at least from their position with the shifting isles and the great port of Lothern and the vast majority of the High Elf navy stationed there, it would be suicide).
Any cooperation is guiding by self-interest. And invariably happens on the soil of the Old World.
Teclis chiefly recognizes the value of the Empire, and seeks to strengthen it knowing it has bigger fish to fry than Ulthuan right now, and knowing it is a perfect target (and therefore distraction) for Chaos, the Greenskins, the Skaven, the Undead, and the non-spiky Norsc Raiders. Thus leaving the Asur the joyful task of continuing a millenia-old civil war with no end in sight.
The Asur are no longer Chaos' chicken soup for the Soul, with the realms of Man being far more attractive (more easily corrupted, and more vibrant melting pots of emotion, their brief frenetic little lives have a delicious vitality).
The Asur would happily sacrifice the entire race of Man to further their goals, they have NO love or respect for the value of human life, they're simply another savage tool to be manipulated. And Humans still consider Elves to be evil baby-snatching witches who are hopelessly corrupt, and probably give you warts (which explains why they have so few themselves!)

The same applies to every major group in the Warhammer setting, they all operate on private ambitions and cooperate when their goals overlap, and come to blows if the contradiction in goals is greater than the perceived losses war would cause

Condottiere
28-08-2008, 14:36
Thou Shalt Not Invoke D&D Alignment When Discussing the Morality of the Races of the Warhammer World :pSince when?

Lord Lucifer
28-08-2008, 14:57
Since always, it's kinda an old-school joke 'round these parts.
That and D&D's metaphysical Alignment system is, well, crap.

Condottiere
28-08-2008, 15:21
Agree - but the nine categories might be considered memes.

Jimjim
28-08-2008, 15:53
try going to

www.chaos-dwarfs.com

or

www.chaosdwarf.com

for more info, should find a lot of very helpful people there

Great reading, but some of the info is simply wrong I'm afraid.
It tells of Karak Vlag being a place of the Chaos Dwarfs.. Did'nt the dwarfs who found Hashut find him in the Mountains of Mourn? Karak Vlag (Desolation or Isolation Hold) was known for its masons and engineers, and it was the most fortified hold in the whole Worlds Edge Mountains.. The "split" in the dwarf race happened 4000 years before Sigmar, and Karak Vlag mysteriously dissapeared in 2301, during the second chaos incursion, but it wasn't the home for so called "Skull Dwarfs" for over 6000 years??

Lord Lucifer
28-08-2008, 15:56
Yep, Karak Vlag has always simply been the north-most Dwarf Hold, never associated with the Dawi'Zharr

wizuriel
28-08-2008, 16:27
that thread on their orgin is actually fan fiction :p

GW fluff doesn't cover the orgin of the chaos dwarfs well. in a nutshell they got cut off during the chaos invasion and afterwards were worshipping hashut, were mutated and now chaos dwarfs (none of the inbetween is covered).




but yeah my take is the CD maybe evil but they are still the most ordered society in the game. The sorcerer lords rule the city with the priests under them. The CD still hold clans and honour and respect their elders. Also I don't think many slaves are sacrificed to Hashut most are put to work. It might be cruel and unusal work but its not mindless torture like the dark elves do (everything the CD do is done for a reason pretty much).

CD are a lawful evil race (well kinda between neutral and evil)


edit: my personal favorite fanfiction on their orgin is the CD went to the dark lands, some turned back but a fair amount stayed. During the chaos invasion unlike the normal dwarfs that had their deep holes and heroes the CD only had some shallow holes and no one stood up for them. They retreated into their hold with an impossible large army at their gates. With their doom inevitable and locked in their dark prison having been abonded by their family and clans (something I'm sure that has never happened to a dwarf before) the chaos dwarfs turned to depression and bitter anger. Out of the darkness, despair, anger ect Hashut was born (Hey is human emotions can give birth to chaos gods why can't dwarf emotions)

edit 2: but yeah back on topic. The chaos dwarfs don't really have any ties to chaos or the big 4 (Hashut is a chaos god but the CD are not chaos). Still they do trade with chaos and now live without morals so I guess some CD on a trade mission to a Slannesh stronghold could have gotten corrupted and warped. Might be harder to pull off with normal dwarfs as they would choose death before corruption

MrBigMr
28-08-2008, 17:09
Might be harder to pull off with normal dwarfs as they would choose death before corruption.
That's the funny thing about corruption, it usually works so subtly that once you're in its grips, it's too late and you haven't even noticed it yourself. It's not like one day you wake up and BANG! you have an extra pair of limbs. It starts with small things that over time build up.


Well, why not? But dwarfs like that won't have any links with "chaos dwarfs" as you think them. Chaos dwarfs are really a badly named race. It's not random mutants or whatever, it is one solid, hierarchized society, and they all look the same, you could say the mutation didn't go haywire, it got channeled and is the same on every chaos dwarfs.
So they're closer to the style of the DE with their Khaine worship and such?


And finally, I'm not sure what you mean by "fine craftship". If it's, like, pretty jewelry, finely sculpted metals or whatever, that's not them. They make big, large, crude machines powered on steam and coal, with enormous gears and mechanical parts, imagine a grand, dwarfish version of the industrial revolution in the 19th century, but on a collosal scale.
I've never really like the overly enveloping "dirty corruption" of evil. I've always more liked the Star Wars Empire and Nazi Germany type of organized, clean suited evil.


So that army might fit in the world (though I do have difficulties picturing dwarfs falling to slaanesh, granted), but not in the propper Chaos Dwarfs fluff.
In other word they'd be Chaos dwarfs and not Chaos Dwarfs. But there's nothing wrong with the concept though, right?

And are dwarfs not petty and vain people? They covet fame and fortune, have great sense of pride and amazing ability to shun all reason with their stubborness. In 40K Fulgrim, the Primarch of the Emperor's Children fell when a Slaaneshi daemon continually appealed to his vanity. It's not all about sex, drugs and rock'n'roll. What pleases you, pleases Slaanesh, and if great craftmanship and wealth pleases you, then it pleases Slaanesh.


Voila, hope that helped :)
Yes, and others as well.


And I have to agree with oh Lord here about the allegiance thingy. Maybe it's my hippie views that have evolved during my life travelling far and wide this little world of ours, but I don't believe in some ultimate evil. It's merely a concept to elevated one above the other. I don't even find GW's Chaos to be that "evil", as it's founded upon the very desires within us. We are the fuel and source of Chaos. It doesn't not corrupt us per se, it merely sets us free from the boundaries of "civilization." There's nothing in Chaos that wasn't in us to begin with. Calling Chaos evil is pretty much like calling nature evil. Chaos gods are mere manifestations of ours emotions.

Urgat
28-08-2008, 18:23
So they're closer to the style of the DE with their Khaine worship and such?
Don't quote me on that, I'm not expert of HE, but don't they recognize khaine too? Anyway, DE and HE are the same race, just like the humans from the empire and bretonia are the same race too. Chaos dwarves have, no doubt, evolved differently, they got different physical traits (tusks). I don't really like to liken CD to DE, but yeah, it can be something like that, just a dwarf settlement that has gone wrong. Both got a civilisation going on, it's not a mishmash of clans or whatever like chaos or greenskins, if you want.


I've never really like the overly enveloping "dirty corruption" of evil. I've always more liked the Star Wars Empire and Nazi Germany type of organized, clean suited evil.
Well, CD are very organized, as wizuriel stated. their dirty side comes from the slave deal going on, the sacrifices to Hashut, and a good deal of coal smoke :D



In other word they'd be Chaos dwarfs and not Chaos Dwarfs. But there's nothing wrong with the concept though, right?

Eaxctly :) I was waiting for some to say the word so I don't mispell it, put calling CD Dawi Zhar is probably more correct anyway, and helps avoid confusions. As for the concept, if you come up with a suitable explanation, there's definitively nothing wrong with it.


And are dwarfs not petty and vain people? They covet fame and fortune, have great sense of pride and amazing ability to shun all reason with their stubborness. In 40K Fulgrim, the Primarch of the Emperor's Children fell when a Slaaneshi daemon continually appealed to his vanity. It's not all about sex, drugs and rock'n'roll. What pleases you, pleases Slaanesh, and if great craftmanship and wealth pleases you, then it pleases Slaanesh.
Yeah, but it's a different kind of pride. I don't see dwarfs willingly side with Chaos w/o being twisted first, there's that grudge thing going one and its like engraved in their genes, dwarfs probably have a colossal amount of grudges written concerning chaos worshippers, so allying with them would go against that, and this, probably, is the biggest obstacle one would face trying to mix dwarfs and chaos (the propper CD conceptors avoided this by introducing a new god, then from them on they could make the CD society evolve so it now works differently and CD accept to deal with species dwarfs would kill on sight: eg, during the latest campaign, the Crown thing, the CD provided Grimgor with weapons, while a normal dwarf would rather kill himslef than lend a knife to an orc).



And I have to agree with oh Lord here about the allegiance thingy. Maybe it's my hippie views that have evolved during my life travelling far and wide this little world of ours, but I don't believe in some ultimate evil. It's merely a concept to elevated one above the other. I don't even find GW's Chaos to be that "evil", as it's founded upon the very desires within us. We are the fuel and source of Chaos. It doesn't not corrupt us per se, it merely sets us free from the boundaries of "civilization." There's nothing in Chaos that wasn't in us to begin with. Calling Chaos evil is pretty much like calling nature evil. Chaos gods are mere manifestations of ours emotions.

Well, skavens and DE are quite evil, nonetheless. You can accept the will to conquer as you'd do with any other race, but they're evil with their kin as well, DE especially; taking pleasure in torturing others is evil no matter how you look at it, and the whole DE deal seems to revolve a lot around how cruel they are. No matter how you look at them, there's no redeeming factor, imho.
I agree about chaos, though, I see GW chaos more as some primal force of nature. Well, besides Tzeench maybe, with all his plotting and so on, but I think the apparant cruelty of his ways are just a mean to his twisted goals, I don't think he takes pleasure in being cruel. As for Slaanesh, he's more twisted than evil, I suppose, I'm pretty sure you could write fluff about nice slaanesh followers who would never kill.

MrBigMr
28-08-2008, 19:39
Don't quote me on that, I'm not expert of HE, but don't they recognize khaine too? Anyway, DE and HE are the same race, just like the humans from the empire and bretonia are the same race too. Chaos dwarves have, no doubt, evolved differently, they got different physical traits (tusks). I don't really like to liken CD to DE, but yeah, it can be something like that, just a dwarf settlement that has gone wrong. Both got a civilisation going on, it's not a mishmash of clans or whatever like chaos or greenskins, if you want.
I just ment the comparison in the way of being an off shoot of the original race with Chaos influence (isn't Khaine rumoured to be Khorne?), but not an entirely Chaotic race like the marauders (coming from all over the place, rather than one set group).


I'm pretty sure you could write fluff about nice slaanesh followers who would never kill.
You're saying that like I haven't. Well, not "never kill", but my 40K Chaos army fluff is more about the personal relations of the people than toppling the very foundation of the Imperium. Besides, I find it funny that the Chaos Space Marine codex actually states they're able to feel things like love, where as nothing like that is never mentioned in any of the loyalist codexes.

Brother Siccarius
28-08-2008, 20:35
In the time before the coming of chaos, when it was dwarfs and elfs, and their expansion was great. When Chaos came, the dwarfs in the Great Skull Land were caught with their drawers down, as it were. Their holds were neither as strong nor as deep as those of their cousins in the mountains, and so they were exposed to chaos. What exactly happened isn't entirely known, though a popular theory is that they came across an ancient tomb or hold when trying to dig further to safety. How it came to be there is highly speculated, but since chaos was whipping around the world at the time it's hard to say. But somehow, in there they found an ancient being that came to be called Hashut, the Dawii Zharr god of Fire and Shadow (story sounds slightly familiar, neh?)

But, anyways, since then the Dawii Zharr (or Chaos Dwarfs) have built up Zharr Naggrund, their capitol, layer on top of layer in the form of an artificial mountain ziggarat. They use mainly slave labor and bought allegiances with the Ogre Kingdoms (to who they seem to share at least some friendship).

They use sorcery, and their sorcerors fill a class similar to priests of other races. Unfortunately sorcery comes at a price, a Dawii Zharr sorceror will gradually turn to stone over centuries of use.

It's believed that the Chaos Dwarfs have multiple holdings through the entirety of the Great Skull Land, though it's never specifically stated in fluff, it's assumed by fandom (and it works pretty well, all in all). Similar to Khazalid dwarfs their holds are ruled by families, clans, or something similar to high nobility of the emperor and the dwarf clans of the holds.

They speak their own language, a sharper, more ancient and slightly twisted form of Khazalid that also incorportates some of the chaos they have been exposed to.

ect. ect.

Read some of the posts in the background section of chaosdwarfs.com or the wiki on there. It should help you out.

Urgat
28-08-2008, 20:53
I just ment the comparison in the way of being an off shoot of the original race with Chaos influence (isn't Khaine rumoured to be Khorne?), but not an entirely Chaotic race like the marauders (coming from all over the place, rather than one set group).
In that case yup, that's the same, indeed :)



You're saying that like I haven't. Well, not "never kill", but my 40K Chaos army fluff is more about the personal relations of the people than toppling the very foundation of the Imperium. Besides, I find it funny that the Chaos Space Marine codex actually states they're able to feel things like love, where as nothing like that is never mentioned in any of the loyalist codexes.

Lol, was a general "you", and it's my bad luck (heh, again? I thought it was just with dies? ><) that you did something like that lol.
Well I could pretty easily picture, say, a Cathayan prince dedicated to Slaanesh living in his palace, spending his time in debauchery, w/o feeling the need to kill, maim or torture, for instance. Or an Empire noblewoman, or whoever.

Ethlorien
28-08-2008, 21:12
Agree - but the nine categories might be considered memes.

At least in the latest edition they've cut that number down to five.

Me, I like the idea of Chaos Dwarfs. Not a fan of dwarfs at all, but the chaos variety I might consider if they get an updated army book in the future.

Lord Lucifer
29-08-2008, 03:03
So they're closer to the style of the DE with their Khaine worship and such?
Pretty much, except slightly different.
Druchii are the Elves who sided with Malekith during the Civil War, and their descendents. The Cult of Pleasure, headed by Malekith's lover, Mother Dearest (incest, fun for the whole family!), eventually sided with Malekith who was using the 'CoP Problem' as a cover for his own ambitions and was previously ruthlessly persecuting them, so there is a great deal of genuine worship of a Great Power of Chaos going on there. This was, however, easily seen as quite detrimental to society as a whole (as indulgence of the Great Four tends to be), so setting up the worship of Khaine as the state religion (easily accepted, most of those siding with Malekith were warriors).
This has kinda been corrupted over time to focus on the more negative aspects of Khaine, to the point where the Druchii Cult of Khaine and the Asur Cult of Khaine look very, very different.
Complete, violently opposed, conflicting offshoot.

The Dawi'Zharr are similar, but with enough interesting points of difference to keep them somewhat original and not entirely redundant.
They never had a civil war, they simply pressed too far afield and ended up in a land full of unglamorous wealth (oil and coal and iron, oh dear), set about mining the hell out of it, and got caught up in an expansion of the Chaos Wastes and cut off from home. The Dawi thought their eastern cousins were lost, wrote it off as a bad idea and left it at that.
The eastern Dwarfs, in desperate times, turned to one of their proscribed cults, the Cult of Hashut, Father of Darkness.
This was, I believe, a Dwarf 'god', but a forbidden one (like the Cult of Khaine in the human pantheon, a god of murder is not to be worshipped yet some do anyway). And just so happens to be an actual Chaos God (by which I mean a Warp Entity like Sigmar, Ulric, Vaul, and Nurgle) rather than an Ancestor, which are still special cases that have not wholly been explained.
When the Dwarfs of the World's Edge Mountains became aware of the Dawi'Zharr, they look upon them as their shameful secret, proof the Dwarfs can be corrupted wholesale, and tend to lock away any hint of their existence, much like Karl-Franz's mutant nephew



In other word they'd be Chaos dwarfs and not Chaos Dwarfs. But there's nothing wrong with the concept though, right?
There's Dwarfs that turn to Chaos, and then there's the civilization of the Dawi'Zharr centred on Zharr-Naggrund


And are dwarfs not petty and vain people? They covet fame and fortune, have great sense of pride and amazing ability to shun all reason with their stubborness. In 40K Fulgrim, the Primarch of the Emperor's Children fell when a Slaaneshi daemon continually appealed to his vanity. It's not all about sex, drugs and rock'n'roll. What pleases you, pleases Slaanesh, and if great craftmanship and wealth pleases you, then it pleases Slaanesh.
Yep, entirely possible for Dwarfs to be corrupted. However, MUCH harder than Humans. Dwarfs are very, very conservative and emotionally dulled, they don't take to extremes in quite the same way humans do. Their character is quite stable by comparison, so it's harder for the Powers to get a grip on the Dwarf psyche than on the vital and exuberant humans or the sensuous Elves


And I have to agree with oh Lord here about the allegiance thingy. Maybe it's my hippie views that have evolved during my life travelling far and wide this little world of ours, but I don't believe in some ultimate evil. It's merely a concept to elevated one above the other. I don't even find GW's Chaos to be that "evil", as it's founded upon the very desires within us. We are the fuel and source of Chaos. It doesn't not corrupt us per se, it merely sets us free from the boundaries of "civilization." There's nothing in Chaos that wasn't in us to begin with. Calling Chaos evil is pretty much like calling nature evil. Chaos gods are mere manifestations of ours emotions.
Chaos is kind of a big thing, many many facets, and people are constantly simplifying things which confuses matters.
Chaos is simply that other plane of existence. The place where every emotion and sensation felt by real-world creatures is mirrored, where thoughts and dreams and concepts exist. Picture it as a dualistic existence, physical bodies in the 'Real World', and all emotions/thoughts/concepts/personalities/etc. in the Chaos realm.
The totality of this 'Chaos' realm is encompassed by four vast semi-sentient personalities, the Chaos Powers as we know them. They are not evil, they exclusively seek one thing, and that one thing is to increase, to grow. It's the same natural instinct that ALL living things have.
You could perhaps look at it the same way as Aristotle views the soul, the soul is basically that which makes living things 'alive', and ALL souls have the basic functional capacity to take nutrition and grow. This is the baseline for all life, and consequently is also the baseline for EVERYTHING in the Realm of Chaos. So the Big Four want one thing: To grow.
To do so they must increase the things that they are associated with. These are vast in their scope, not just the tight focus we normally associate these Gods with (Battle, Pleasure, Magic, Death)
The problem is, their growth pays no regard whatsoever to the effect they have on others. Their growth DOES corrupt us, because it causes us to over-indulge, to carry our emotions and actions to an unnatural degree, to unbalance things royally and bring destruction in our excess. This isn't evil... nor is it good... and sadly, nor is it entirely natural. It's destructive, because these powers are primal and HUNGRY!
The Chaos Gods aren't subject to the evolutionary process that actual living creatures must be subject to, that restricts populations to what can be supported by their environment. The Chaos Gods are VERY human in that regard.
The 'lesser' Gods are more clearly formed by the ideas of civilized creatures, and therefore are more subject to the restraints that civilization places on individuals. They're not as destructive in their drive for growth.
Not evil. Not good. Only run by an instinctual desire to grow, without restraint.

Now, the blokes in spiky armour are exceedingly proud and envious, and are therefore the most easily corrupted and the most vital, energetic supporters of their God and the means that support it. Those most ambitious and sociopathic creatures ARE evil, as we would deem them. But they're evil only because we're making the moral judgement. Without our judgement, the 'evil' is completely meaningless because it is NOT a motivating factor. They are greedy, covetous, sadistic, or even hopelessly idealistic and misguided. These are their motivators, and whether we deem them evil or not is completely irrelevant to their determined course of action




Don't quote me on that, I'm not expert of HE, but don't they recognize khaine too? Anyway, DE and HE are the same race, just like the humans from the empire and bretonia are the same race too. Chaos dwarves have, no doubt, evolved differently, they got different physical traits (tusks). I don't really like to liken CD to DE, but yeah, it can be something like that, just a dwarf settlement that has gone wrong. Both got a civilisation going on, it's not a mishmash of clans or whatever like chaos or greenskins, if you want.
Both worship Khaine, but it's two different sides of it. Dark Elves have come to worship the harsher, more murderous side, while the High Elves try to keep rather distant from Khaine and revere him pretty much exclusively in his role as Warrior and Executioner.




Eaxctly :) I was waiting for some to say the word so I don't mispell it, put calling CD Dawi Zhar is probably more correct anyway, and helps avoid confusions. As for the concept, if you come up with a suitable explanation, there's definitively nothing wrong with it.
The problem is Dawi'Zharr would make a terrible name for an Army Book :p
Up until about half way through 4th edition Chaos Dwarfs were literally Dwarfs that worshipped the Great Powers along with the Humans, Elves, assorted Orcs and so on.
Then came White Dwarf Presents: Chaos Dwarfs (interestingly enough, they've NEVER had an Army Book, only a series of White Dwarf articles later compiled into a compendium) in the middle of 4th ed. which was the first time the whole Hashut, Zharr'Naggrund deal was mentioned and the Black Orc Exodus became canon

Neither type of 'Chaos Dwarf' should preclude the existence of the other type in the warhammer world. The only problem is, how to publish both with distinct-enough names to avoid confusion?
And no suggestions of Hat Dwarfs!


Yeah, but it's a different kind of pride. I don't see dwarfs willingly side with Chaos w/o being twisted first, there's that grudge thing going one and its like engraved in their genes, dwarfs probably have a colossal amount of grudges written concerning chaos worshippers, so allying with them would go against that, and this, probably, is the biggest obstacle one would face trying to mix dwarfs and chaos (the propper CD conceptors avoided this by introducing a new god, then from them on they could make the CD society evolve so it now works differently and CD accept to deal with species dwarfs would kill on sight: eg, during the latest campaign, the Crown thing, the CD provided Grimgor with weapons, while a normal dwarf would rather kill himslef than lend a knife to an orc).
No-one willingly sides with Chaos, but everyone serves themselves. Subtlety is the key
And there's plenty of Chaos-worshipping Dwarfs. As noted, before 4th ed. that's all the Chaos Dwarfs were





Well, skavens and DE are quite evil, nonetheless. You can accept the will to conquer as you'd do with any other race, but they're evil with their kin as well, DE especially; taking pleasure in torturing others is evil no matter how you look at it, and the whole DE deal seems to revolve a lot around how cruel they are. No matter how you look at them, there's no redeeming factor, imho.
Humans are exceedingly evil with their kin also. Not just in Warhammer, but in real life. To apply that standard pretty much condemns every race in the warhammer world
The Dark Elves are cruel only as required by their religion, which is holding their society together and helping them endure the attentions of the Marauders and chaos gribblies from up north.
There's plenty of ways to look at the Druchii and see redeeming factors, provided you don't pay attention to the fan-views of Dark Elves (the joke that came up with their 6th ed. revision was "Now with 50% More Evil!")
And the Skaven do exactly what rats do, only with much more complex thought processes. It's perverted Darwinism taken to extremes, their drive is to survive in an INCREDIBLY dangerous world.

And you can find ways to rationalise taking pleasure in torturing others and not consider it evil, which I'll only mention VERY briefly to avoid the P&R forum:
Execution of Saddam Hussein. A lot of people cheered.
Watching 24. Fictionalized torture, but vicarious enjoyment all the same. Watching Hostel likewise, and Saw, and hell, even Fear Factor
BDSM
The execution parties texans like to throw, especially when the accused is a child molestor.
If you can justify the torture as legitemate (Gitmo?) you can derive a positive feeling from it in some way (satisfaction of doing the right thing if you believe it to be so, or a feeling of vindication, or the enjoyment of seeing someone get what they so richly deserve)


But the important point is, 'evil' is a moral judgement, relying on the morality of whoever is claiming it. No-one EVER does something 'because it's evil', it's NOT a motivating drive, and is an incredibly superficial way of looking at a conflict.
The interest is in finding out what actually motivates certain groups, seeing how that conflicts with other groups, and tracing how events unfold


I agree about chaos, though, I see GW chaos more as some primal force of nature. Well, besides Tzeench maybe, with all his plotting and so on, but I think the apparant cruelty of his ways are just a mean to his twisted goals, I don't think he takes pleasure in being cruel. As for Slaanesh, he's more twisted than evil, I suppose, I'm pretty sure you could write fluff about nice slaanesh followers who would never kill.
Tzeentch requires scheming and planning and the desire to bring about change. The 'mean' thing he does, which is ruin the attempts of his followers, just prevents them from reaching their goal, forcing them to continue to scheme and strive, satisfying HIS need.
Just as Nurgle urges his followers NOT to try and change things, because acceptance and apathy are his domain.
Slaanesh is the lord of pleasure and indulgence. Feeling good is good, but we have the moral value of temperence as a defense against the destructive nature of over-indulgence


I just ment the comparison in the way of being an off shoot of the original race with Chaos influence (isn't Khaine rumoured to be Khorne?), but not an entirely Chaotic race like the marauders (coming from all over the place, rather than one set group).
Khaine is not Khorne. They have an overlap of domains, things that indirectly feed Khorne also indirectly feed Khaine, but they are two distinct warp entities, inasmuch as warp entities can be considered distinct.
Likewise the Elf God Khaine is not the same as the Human God Khaine, despite the overlap.

MrBigMr
29-08-2008, 06:02
It's fun that depending on how you present something, it can either be heroic or pure evil. Spartans in 300 were noble warriors, while in Troy they were murderous conquerors and history has them as quite insane in their ways. They had their own culture and for their time it was important. Or look at the Chaos marauder barbarians. Blood crazed bastards with bulging muscles toppling civilization, never thinking too far ahead of them and solving everything with violence. Now imagine a barbarian with long hair, a big sword and an Austrian accent... Still the bad guy?

I've always disliked how Space Marines are wrapped in a cloak of heroism when they're nothing but mutilated children, brainwashed and all free will neutered from them in the service of a corpse god in order to do some of the most horrendious crimes imaginable. But I understand the need for it. I mean, if you think about it, Master Chief in Halo has a similar history (right, 'cuz I don't remember for sure?), and he's a big, bad ass hero.

As for things like Orks:

The Orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won. They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their turn? And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn't even bother to ask! We see a culture that is strong and despise it as crude.
Makes you look at dem boyz with a totally different eyes now.


No-one willingly sides with Chaos, but everyone serves themselves. Subtlety is the key
I both agree and disagree. I don't know why. I mean, I do think someone is more than willing to throw themselves in the service of a Chaos god, depending on their motivation. But naturally it's about what the individual wants. We rarely do things we don't want. And even if we do, it's usually because we don't want others to know we don't like them.

There's people who choose to worship Satan, and I don't think there's any real corruption going on there. It's a little harder in WHFB and 40K universes where gods are real and "evil" corruption even realer. But I still don't see how a person with already questionable mental state couldn't choose to worship something willingly for what ever reason.

I always like to point out in the eternal Chaos Tau discussions that even if the Tau would be nigh impossible to corrupt, they're not Hindu cows like the fluff would suggest, but their society tried to make them into such (the Jedi "clear your mind from emotion, they are bad" thingy). Right before the Ethereals they were a violent race, and such evolutionary things don't disappear just like that (as taught in The Forbidden Planet). There are more then few cases of Fire Warriors doing more or less questionable things.

So imagine you live in a Demolition Man future where free sex is illegal, emotions are bad and yet on the inside you feel things you don't understand that well. Then comes a religion that tells you "it's ok to feel these things, even act upon them." Not everyone takes the bair, but some do.

Lord Lucifer
29-08-2008, 06:58
The Marauders aren't evil. They're not even sadistic. They do only what they need to do to survive, and struggle over the scant resources that their environment provides. Many tribes even have their own highly developed honour codes, I believe.
They observe the Chaos Gods as a necessity and as part of the territory. The Big Four are VERY real, and DESERVE respect
And the Big Four aren't the only gods they observe and worship.
Even if they don't have austrian accents :p

And the Orks have always been the most well-adjusted in the 40KVerse :D
They do what they do because it's what's been artificially bred into them, and beyond that, they just wanna have a good time. Too bad for those weedy non-Orks who don't realize fightin'z a ded good laugh, eh?

Brother Siccarius
29-08-2008, 08:50
It's entirely possible for Dwarfs to be corrupted, otherwise there'd be no Dawi'Zharr. However, it's important to note that the stoic resistance to magic that all dwarf-kind shares prevents some of the major mutations from occurring.
With the exception of Bull Centaurs, as they are their own race, likely created during the eruption of chaos much like the centaurs of the beastmen, though it remains unknown.

The real difference between Chaos Dwarfs and Dawi'zharr is culture, which inevitably lends itself to an army list as well. A Chaos Dwarf will not have the access to the demon engineering of the Dawi'Zharr, or the Bull Centaurs or Lamassu or Taurus that are special to the dwarfs of the Great Skull Land. Most dwarfs probably wouldn't even know how to begin with sorcery, probably relying on cursed or untested runes to contact chaos.
It takes more than just turning to chaos for a dwarf to become a Dawi'Zharr.

_____________

While on the surface the Dawi'Zharr appear to be similar to the Dark Elves, however, they're quite different in the details. Where Druchii hate, the Dawi are uncareing. They don't collect slaves because they hate the other races, they do it because it is practical, and that it preserves their lands. They have turned slaving into an art, with layers of it so thick that their slaves gather and discipline their slaves (speaking, of course, of the Hobgoblins). They created a new race of orc simply because it was practical to their needs, and discarded it when they felt it was no longer so (creating riots among the rabble is bad for business). While the Druchii make pacts with demons for power of their sorcery, the Dawi'Zharr worship for theirs, making sacrifices of slaves to Hashut for his blessings, and they bend demons to their will in making their machinations.

I imagine that a Dawi'Zharr is much like a Kharazi, only with the practical nature taken to the extreme in that whatever is practical is good no matter how evil.

MrBigMr
29-08-2008, 16:37
It's entirely possible for Dwarfs to be corrupted, otherwise there'd be no Dawi'Zharr. However, it's important to note that the stoic resistance to magic that all dwarf-kind shares prevents some of the major mutations from occurring.

The real difference between Chaos Dwarfs and Dawi'zharr is culture, which inevitably lends itself to an army list as well. A Chaos Dwarf will not have the access to the demon engineering of the Dawi'Zharr, or the Bull Centaurs or Lamassu or Taurus that are special to the dwarfs of the Great Skull Land. Most dwarfs probably wouldn't even know how to begin with sorcery, probably relying on cursed or untested runes to contact chaos.
It takes more than just turning to chaos for a dwarf to become a Dawi'Zharr.
I wasn't going to do any generic twisted tentacle and spiky bits "Chaos" conversions. Maybe pale skin and black eyes tops. The rest would be just more chaotic weaponry (like chainswords and axes) and armour, rather than actual physical, bodily corruption. For daemonic creatures I cannot vouch, as I'm doing a cannon and gyrocopter as daemonic beasts. Cannon from a Tyranid biovore (happened to have one just sitting around) and the chopper from a Tyranid warrior (got one cheap in bits).


While on the surface the Dawi'Zharr appear to be similar to the Dark Elves, however, they're quite different in the details. Where Druchii hate, the Dawi are uncareing. They don't collect slaves because they hate the other races, they do it because it is practical, and that it preserves their lands. They have turned slaving into an art, with layers of it so thick that their slaves gather and discipline their slaves (speaking, of course, of the Hobgoblins).
Remember that in Plato's Utopia, slavery was one of the key elements, as it was in the good ol', ancient days. A little like homosexuality and beastiality were not so frowned upon, where as oral sex was.

O Tempora, O Mores.

Trimmey
29-08-2008, 16:46
I seem to remember that Dwarfs who fall to Chaos have very different mutations from that of humans. Rather than tenticles they have skin that seems to resemble metal or stone. This is likely because of thier tough nature as well as the natural magic resistance within thier very blood which prevents ther more extreme mutations.

Would it not be better to rename the Dawi-Zharr "Dark Dwarves" as they now have considerably less to do with Chaos than the Dark Elves. On a side note do Elves ever develop mutations if they really fall to Chaos?

Lord Lucifer
29-08-2008, 17:00
Dwarfs suffer mutations in much the same way, they're just more physically resistant.
It's magic where things get screwy. Dwarfs tend to petrify and turn to stone.

And I'd say the Dawi'Zharr probably have as much, or more, to do with Chaos than the Druchii do, especially through dealing with them.

Elves DO develop mutations.
Dechala the Denied had the lower body of a snake and six arms, if I recall correctly.

Condottiere
29-08-2008, 17:10
A little like homosexuality and beastiality were not so frowned upon, where as oral sex was.

O Tempora, O Mores.The telecommunications industry was in it's infancy, and the neighbours complained about the graphics descriptions and wishes being shouted back and forth in the alleyways.

MrBigMr
03-09-2008, 16:33
Oh, I was reading my Liber Chaotica the other day and came across this line under Chaos Monoliths (in the Khorne volume):
"The wicked dwarfs of Zorn Uzkul are also known to cast such monoliths from solid brass polished to a mirror finish."

Does this refer to the Chaos "Dark" Dwarfs, or true "Blood for the Blood God!" dwarfs?

Lord Lucifer
03-09-2008, 16:47
It's in Liber Chaotica, it's no doubt referencing Dwarfs who have fallen to the Ruinous Powers rather than our big-hat friends the Dawi'Zharr

Revlid
03-09-2008, 17:30
Oh, I was reading my Liber Chaotica the other day and came across this line under Chaos Monoliths (in the Khorne volume):
"The wicked dwarfs of Zorn Uzkul are also known to cast such monoliths from solid brass polished to a mirror finish."

Does this refer to the Chaos "Dark" Dwarfs, or true "Blood for the Blood God!" dwarfs?

This refers to Chaos Dwarfs, as opposed to Chaotic Dwarfs. Zorn Uzkul is where Chaos Dwarfs live. And I can fully see them casting brass monoliths, just not dedicated to Khorne ;). Perhaps as a sort of signpost, or to aid in the magics of their Sorcerers. Or dedicated to Hashut. Or just a generic monument.

Condottiere
03-09-2008, 18:35
How do these monoliths look? Pyramid, pillars, cubes?

MrBigMr
03-09-2008, 19:17
@Revlid. Ok.

@Lord Lucifer. The LC does talk about other Chaos gods as well, mentioning smaller gods, though mainly concerning itself with the Big 4 and only naming them.

@Condottieri. They probably look like... Anything. I guess it's up to the artist doing it, and the god it is dedicated to. There's some designs on the GW site for one.

Brother Siccarius
03-09-2008, 20:32
Well, I wouldn't doubt it, even if the monoliths were dedicated to Khorne, considering that the Dawi-Zharr were at one point known as the ones who created the Juggernaughts of Khorne, and you probably thought that Hellcannons were all they bartered with the marauders.



Would it not be better to rename the Dawi-Zharr "Dark Dwarves" as they now have considerably less to do with Chaos than the Dark Elves. On a side note do Elves ever develop mutations if they really fall to Chaos?

Actually Dawi-Zharr doesn't mean "Chaos Dwarfs" at all, it means "dwarfs of fire" or "Fire Dwarfs".

Trimmey
04-09-2008, 16:54
All who wish to join a petition to rename Chaos Dwarves to Fire Dwarfs say aye.




Aye!

Ethlorien
04-09-2008, 17:22
Nay. While I would love to play Chaos Dwarfs, I have little interest in playing Flamming Dwarfs. Though, with those hats...

Condottiere
04-09-2008, 17:44
Burning Dwarf Festival.

MrBigMr
05-09-2008, 00:35
Sounds like some hippy Wood Elf festival where they hang burning dwarfs up in festifal of their hatred of the little bastards. Then they have some wine, weed and a good ol' elf orgy of piled, waving elf flesh.

I think mere "dark dwarfs" would suffice when it comes to the big hatted ones.

Brother Siccarius
05-09-2008, 07:27
Sounds like some hippy Wood Elf festival where they hang burning dwarfs up in festifal of their hatred of the little bastards. Then they have some wine, weed and a good ol' elf orgy of piled, waving elf flesh.

I think mere "dark dwarfs" would suffice when it comes to the big hatted ones.

Considering who were talking about, I wouldn't put it past them to string up real dwarfs as decoration. Apparently taking decor tips from skaven...

Arnizipal
05-09-2008, 08:17
Dwarfs are very, very conservative and emotionally dulled, they don't take to extremes in quite the same way humans do. Their character is quite stable by comparison, so it's harder for the Powers to get a grip on the Dwarf psyche than on the vital and exuberant humans or the sensuous Elves

*coughslayerscough* ;)

Lord Lucifer
05-09-2008, 15:00
The exception that proves the rule

MrBigMr
06-09-2008, 17:47
Don't slayers have a certain, orderly berserking going for them. I mean, they all have orange hair, nor armour and blue paintjobs. There's is some dwarfish "everything has to be done right" feel even in them. Reminds me of one of more than one program about the Japanese. Even rebelling is done in an orderly fashion where young people get together around the same time and rebel together. The term "if something is worth doing, it's worth doing right" springs into mind.

Xand0r
29-09-2008, 20:01
I think this thread is worth pumping. There is considerable confusion when it comes to Chaos Dwarfs, and I myself have waded through much of the Chaos Dwarf lore in search of the canon truth. Myself and many others at Chaos Dwarfs Online have been endeavouring to get all of the canon lore onto our Chaos Dwarf Wiki.

If you have the books and resources to reference, take a look at the wiki, and update it. Right now we are looking to add references for people to check the facts themselves on any claim.

Here's a small example of a page that helps clarify things, but also leaves things open to new sources of information:
http://www.chaos-dwarfs.com/wiki/index.php?title=Dawi-Zharr


Dawi-Zharr

Dawi-Zharr is the proper name of the Chaos Dwarfs: it is the term they use to refer to themselves. It translates to Dwarfs of the Place of Fire.[1]

Punctuation

The term Dawi-Zharr first appeared in the 5th Edition's Battle Book. It appeared as "Dawi'zharr."[1] It was subsequently used in the novel Grudge Bearer, and appeared as "Dawi-Zharr."[2]

References

* 1 Priestley, Rick. Battle Book, (Games Workshop Ltd., 1996) 113.
* 2 Thorpe, Gav. Grudge Bearer. (Great Britain: Black Library, 2005) 239.

To the best of my knowledge, and using two resources, these are the only two canon references I know about the term Dawi-Zharr. If someone has a Warhammer Roleplay book with another usage of the term, add that to the wiki, it's that simple.

If we can provide references of this kind, it will remove much of the confusion surrounding what is known, and what isn't.

Here's hoping you'll help the cause! :)

Halelel
29-09-2008, 23:56
Ya, the distinction between Dwarves who have been tainted by Chaos and Chaos Dwarves seems to cause a lot of misunderstandings.

As noted before "Dawi'Zharr" is translated as "Fire Dwarves" or "Dwarves of the Fire", I can understand people not wanting to change the name to Flaming Dwarves or something silly.

I know my gaming group, when we play WFRP, refer to Dawi'Zharr as the "Dwarves of the Dark Flames" or "Dwarves of the Flames" or something similar. We do this mainly because we try to create fluff for a campaign that centers around the Norsca dwarves falling to the taint of Chaos.

Of course, Chaos Dwarves has been the official terminology for over a decade now, so trying to get gamers to change the name now will prove most difficult.

w3rm
19-10-2008, 01:02
Chaos Dwarfs technically arent worhiping the Four Powers, but niether are skaven so they are both kinda chaos i guess.

Brother Siccarius
19-10-2008, 05:09
Chaos Dwarfs technically arent worhiping the Four Powers, but niether are skaven so they are both kinda chaos i guess.

Like the skaven, they don't worship the "four powers", instead it's a lesser "fifth power". The Warriors of Chaos book confirms that they worship a chaos god separate from the "big four".

MrBigMr
19-10-2008, 11:56
I'm a little confused here. I mean, what makes a god a Chaos god? Are all gods that live inside the Warp Chaos gods? Does that mean all elf and human gods are chaos gods as well? Or is it just the "evil" gods? I would think Khaine along with quite a few others would qualify for this.

Trimmey
19-10-2008, 13:24
I'm a little confused here. I mean, what makes a god a Chaos god? Are all gods that live inside the Warp Chaos gods? Does that mean all elf and human gods are chaos gods as well? Or is it just the "evil" gods? I would think Khaine along with quite a few others would qualify for this.

All gods are chaos gods insofar as they exist in the warp/Aethyr/whatever and are given form and function by the belief of their worshippers. What seperates the Chaos Gods is that they are fed power not only by direct worship but by base emotion and actions. For instance Sigmar takes his power from the citizens of the Empire who worship him, however Khorne takes His from His worshippers as well as all feelings of Anger and hatred by sentient life and all bloodshed in battle.
This is why the Chaos Gods are all so much more powerful than the Human/ Elf/Dwarf gods. It is also im portant to note that all of the gods are merely aspects of one or more of the big four. Eg, Khaine is Khorne, Slaanesh and Tzeentch. The fact that some of these lesser gods rail against Chaos is not as condtradictary (sp?) as it first appears as Chaos follows no rules and fights against itself constantly.

Arnizipal
19-10-2008, 14:07
I'm a little confused here. I mean, what makes a god a Chaos god? Are all gods that live inside the Warp Chaos gods? Does that mean all elf and human gods are chaos gods as well? Or is it just the "evil" gods? I would think Khaine along with quite a few others would qualify for this.
This (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9535) will shed some light on things maybe?

Though it doesn't really explain what makes a Chaos God a Chaos God...