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PARTYCHICORITA
28-08-2008, 14:43
Let's say i have a unit of grave guard 15 with a vampire with blood drinker with charging enemies in the front, both flanks and the rear.

The charging enemies attacks an kills 4 models (one in front, each flank and rear) then the vampire attacks and kills 4 models so the blood drinker restores 4 wounds to the unit, then is the grave guard's turn to attack. Can the resurrected models attack? Let's say one of the enemy attacks slayed the champion in a challenge, the champion is back up again; can he attack? Is he in the challenge?

theunwantedbeing
28-08-2008, 14:48
No, they cannot.
Slain models cannot attack.

The champion would not be in the challenge as the challenge ends when 1 model is slain.

PARTYCHICORITA
28-08-2008, 15:14
You sure about this? At least in theory they are alive when their initiative turn to attack comes (the vampire has greater I than the grave guard)

Lordsaradain
28-08-2008, 15:38
No, they cannot.
Slain models cannot attack.

The champion would not be in the challenge as the challenge ends when 1 model is slain.

This seems like the most correct and sensible answer.

Xirathnix
28-08-2008, 17:26
Yes, they can attack in their normal I but they do not gain a bonus if they charged. There is a debate on the champion in a challenge, most people say his opportunity to attack is passed.

Nedar
28-08-2008, 20:19
Page 36. Under Removing Casualties, second Paragraph.

A model that is removed in a combat before they go can not attack, and models stepping forward may not attack.

When a Wight dies take it away and move another RnF model into it's spot. The raised models fill in the back ranks. If you do this you see that models killed are unable to fight.

However, if a model is raised where one was not killed previously, it may attack since it has not yet been killed in the combat.

For instance:

AAAAA
AADAA
GGCGVBB
GGGGGBB
GGGGGBB

A charges and model D challenges. The Champion of the GG, C accepts.

You fight the challenge, C dies. A then kills 3 models and B kills one.

The Vampire fights, and kills 4+ enemies in A. The unit is fully restored and ONE GG model to the side may fight back.

The Challenge is over and the Champion will not get to attack as he has already been killed.

DarknessDawns
29-08-2008, 02:51
as said in the rules,
blood drinker- the models are raised as if ION had been cast on them
ION- the models can attack but gain no charging bonuses are to be applied to said models.
about the challange im not sure.

PARTYCHICORITA
29-08-2008, 05:16
as said in the rules,
blood drinker- the models are raised as if ION had been cast on them
ION- the models can attack but gain no charging bonuses are to be applied to said models.


That's why am not so sure about this. Speacially if the unit is surrounded by enemies on all sides.

Nedar
29-08-2008, 06:39
If you are get rear charged and that unit wipes out your entire back rank, any raised models in BtB with them will be able to attack, since those models were not killed and haven't gotten to their I order yet.

Front rank is often not going to get to attack unless you had less than a full rank to start the combat with.

For example, I charged a unit of nightgoblins and a unit behind it poped fanatics. Both fanatics ended up in front of the unit I was charging, so incedently I landed on them causing 4d6 or w/e hits. This killed every single Grave Guard, except for my champion.

However, my lord went first killing 8 goblins, giving me back 8 models. My champ got to fight and wiffed then the goblins then got their 2 spear attacks since my remaining models that didn't get killed in combat didn't have a charge bonus and had Great Weapons.

Xirathnix
29-08-2008, 21:49
Not sure what Nedar is talking about but the answer given by me and DarknessDawns is correct. You get to attack in virtually any circumstance due to ION rules except maybe a challenge. RAW they do however I wouldnt just to stay friendly.

In Nedars last example his 3 GG would attack after everyone else as great weapons strike last. In his example before that 5 GG not 1 should have attacked.

Gazak Blacktoof
29-08-2008, 23:47
This is a very complex situation and Nedar has it right as far as I can see.

I believe the champion could attack (but wouldn't be in the challenge). When re-raised he will be placed in the front rank displacing another model there- though whether he replaces a model that would be allowed to attack or one that has stepped in to replace a fallen model (or indeed the spot he vacated after being killed in the challenge) would be up for debate.

Gazak Blacktoof
01-09-2008, 11:04
I just had a final thought about this question whilst reading another thread.

As far as I know, if there are enemy in contact with the rear rank, then once it is complete no further models can be raised as there is no space to place them.

PARTYCHICORITA
01-09-2008, 13:39
I just had a final thought about this question whilst reading another thread.

As far as I know, if there are enemy in contact with the rear rank, then once it is complete no further models can be raised as there is no space to place them.

That makes sense but is there a rule book reference for it? IoN says nothing about this subject.

DeathlessDraich
01-09-2008, 15:11
I believe the champion could attack (but wouldn't be in the challenge). When re-raised he will be placed in the front rank displacing another model there- though whether he replaces a model that would be allowed to attack or one that has stepped in to replace a fallen model (or indeed the spot he vacated after being killed in the challenge) would be up for debate.

Yes. The resurrected champion is definitely not in a challenge anymore as the challenge has ended.


Can the resurrected models attack? Let's say one of the enemy attacks slayed the champion in a challenge, the champion is back up again; can he attack? Is he in the challenge?

This depends on Initiative and fighting order and should not be a problem except when the VC unit is charged or the unlikely case of a Necromancer with Bloodrinker!

If the VC unit is charged and the VC opponent chooses to resolve the challenge and the VC champion is slain:

1) The challenge ends - pg 76 and 77

2) When Bloodrinker resurrects the champion, he is in the front rank (ION rules) and therefore can fight - pg 31.

3) He may actually still allocate 1 or more attacks to the enemy model that was in the challenge (unless the challengers were physically moved for the challenge)! Any extra wounds from this do not count as overkills however.

Gazak Blacktoof
01-09-2008, 20:16
That makes sense but is there a rule book reference for it? IoN says nothing about this subject.

I'm not sure. Models are placed in the back, rank if there isn't space for them you can't physically place them.

I think this may have been covered in an old FAQ and previous discussions on the forum but I can't find anything to back it up other than a literal "you can't place them".

Deetwo
01-09-2008, 22:25
I'm not sure. Models are placed in the back, rank if there isn't space for them you can't physically place them.

I think this may have been covered in an old FAQ and previous discussions on the forum but I can't find anything to back it up other than a literal "you can't place them".

This was covered in the OLD IoN rule IIRC.. Although I can't find my old VC book to check that.

But I believe the consensus has always been that if you don't have space or models to place summoned extras, you don't place them.
Can't say if it has any rules backup though, but it does make sense somewhat.

Gazak Blacktoof
01-09-2008, 23:04
Ah, maybe that's where I've seen it then (I don't own a copy though) and they got lazy and didn't re-print that section. I had a look in the tomb king book and I can't see it in the summoning spell there.

PARTYCHICORITA
02-09-2008, 13:23
If it's like that an undead unit completely surrounded is unable to resurrect fallen models.

The way i've been playing if you want to resurrect or increase the size of your unit but there is an unengage enemy model within 1' you can't place new model since the enemy is to close. However if you are engage with the enemy you could just increase the units size and keep pushing those enemies engage with the rear of your unit back as the undead keep getting back up. It's possible to move enemy units in closecombat with you: for example when you charge and the scenary doesn't allow you to put most of your models in btb the enemy moves, or if you are charge by flanks and front and you win so you turn your unit.

PS: Sorry for the bad english, not my first language.

Gazak Blacktoof
02-09-2008, 14:25
Those are suggested compromises.

The way I've always played it with my tomb kings is that they can't stand back up if there's something to block them, be it impassable terrain, the board edge or a model (enemy or friendly).