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Makaber
07-11-2005, 13:15
Armour of Darkness, found in the Dark Elves army book, has the following rules: "This armour includes a shield and gives a save of 2+ that cannot be improved in any way". Does this mean the shield has to be used to achieve the save? If not, what's the point of the shield since the save cannot be improved?

T10
07-11-2005, 13:21
That appears to be the case. The Brettonnian Armour of Agilulf (?) has a similar description.

I take it to mean that the shield is always used, meaning that in clos combat the character is limited to using weapons that can be used in combination with a shield. This would preclude great weapons and halberds, as well as som magic weapons.

I would guess the intent is to avoid the populer 1+ Armour Saves and Great Weapons you may find in many armies, e.g. Empire, Dwarfs and Orcs & Goblins.

Oh, and the "cannot be improved" bit probably refers to adding sea-dragon cloaks, mounting the character on a cold one etc - mundane equipment and the like that improves the armour save.

-T10

chivalrous
07-11-2005, 22:28
@T10
The difference between the Armour of Agiluf and the Armour of Darkness is that the description of the Armour of Agiluf specifically states that the shield MUST be used at all times.
There is no such rule attached to the Armour of Darkness.

It certainly makes it simpler to say that the shield must be used at all times.

@ Makaber Until there's an official ruling, just consult with your opponent before a game.
In all honesty, if you're using a great weapon (or a magical 2 handed weapon) you might as well just use the Blood armour and a Sea Dragon Cloak after you've scored a few wounds you'll have a better save and still have both hands free.

Zeb
08-11-2005, 05:28
There has been an errata on the AoD that states that the shield is used at all times, so a Beastmaster and BSB can't have it. I belive you can download it from uk.games-workshop.com.

Festus
08-11-2005, 08:48
Hi

T10 has it perfectly right: It comes with a shield and it must be used with a shield, thus no d-h-weapons or halberds.

I'd say if you want to fight with a d-h-weapon, fine. But remember to undress yourself first: Armor Save N/A :D

Well maybe you could cause fear, running around naked on the battlefield... :angel:

Greetings
Festus

Atrahasis
08-11-2005, 09:12
There has been an errata on the AoD that states that the shield is used at all times, so a Beastmaster and BSB can't have it.

A Beastmaster certainly can use it.

Nothing in the rules prevents the Beastmaster from using magical shields (or magical armour that includes a magical shield).

Festus
08-11-2005, 09:31
Hi

A Beastmaster certainly can use it.

Nothing in the rules prevents the Beastmaster from using magical shields (or magical armour that includes a magical shield).

There is nothing in the rules themselves, here you are right.

But A. Reynolds (ARRGGGHHH, him again) said differently (quoting from Direwolf, because I am lazy):



Q. If a character has an armor upgrade option, but not a shield upgrade
option (the DE Beastmaster in the errata for example), can he take
magical shields, and/or magical armours that are stated to include a
shield (armor of darkness)

A. No.
S. Anthony Reynolds - Warhammer Design Team



Greetings
Festus

Flame
08-11-2005, 10:02
Ahh, the old make rules up as we go along approach! :)

Atrahasis
08-11-2005, 13:43
Ahh, the old make rules up as we go along approach! :)

I am of the firm opinion that until anything is in print, it is completely unofficial and should be treated with no more weight than an answer from the rulezboyz, especially where Anthony Reynolds is concerned.

He is single handedly responsible for the worst Q&A in the history of GW, from which the above answer is taken.

Festus
08-11-2005, 17:06
Hi

I am of the firm opinion...
This is the point exactly:
different people /playing groups take different rules sources differently:

To some, AR is the worst since raw sewage - and best left alone, to others he is the best and *most official* since Gav Thorpe (whatever that means :) )

Greetings
Festus

Yanos
09-11-2005, 07:42
The Beastmaster thing is backed up (sadly!) in the Online Q&A, under Magic Items. That old "can't take the mundane version therefore can't take the magic version" chestnut :(.

Atrahasis
09-11-2005, 08:40
The Beastmaster thing is backed up (sadly!) in the Online Q&A, under Magic Items. That old "can't take the mundane version therefore can't take the magic version" chestnut :(.

How can a Q&A back itself up?

The Q&A on the GW forums is UNOFFICIAL and largely makes no sense, from the answer that makes the Banner of Duty useless, to the answer that makes Magic Resistance items great value for money.

As I said above, until an answer from a designer is in print, its just another answer from the roolzboyz as far as I am concerned. Q&As that have been on that forum have often had answers stripped out before publication. It is unofficial for a reason, ie because the answers are not concrete.

Yanos
09-11-2005, 10:10
Sorry, I'll clarify. I meant the Online Chronicles Q&A, the pdf file of what was printed in the 2003 Annual IIRC. I agree, what's not in print can't be taken as law, but this has at least been printed :).

Atrahasis
09-11-2005, 10:43
Sorry, I'll clarify. I meant the Online Chronicles Q&A, the pdf file of what was printed in the 2003 Annual IIRC. I agree, what's not in print can't be taken as law, but this has at least been printed :).

Nope.

There is NO printed material that supports the position that a DE Beastmaster cannot take magical shields or magical armour including shields.

If you believe there is, then please provide a quotation. The latest FAQ can be found here (http://uk.games-workshop.com/chronicles/faq/1/).

Yanos
09-11-2005, 10:56
Fair dos, now you mention it the question asked in the FAQ is never actually answered in the "answer" :eyebrows:. It simply says that you can only take Magic Armour if you can normally take mundane armour. Which the Beastmaster can. So he can have the Armour of Darkness. My Beastmaster is now much happier on the battlefield! :D

Atrahasis
09-11-2005, 13:49
It simply says that you can only take Magic Armour if you can normally take mundane armour.

The question IS answered.

The question asks whether a mundane item is required to take a magical version.

The answer says you need an armour option to take armour, and that BSBs cannot take shields. It specifically mentions that the restriction on shields applies ONLY to BSBs.

The categories are Weapons and Armour, not Weapons, Armour, and Shields.

Any option for armour (body or shield) allows an option of magical armour (body, shield, helm, bracers, vambraces, gauntlets, saucepan).