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Col. Kurtz
28-08-2008, 15:49
I like to think that I am fairly familiar with 40k fluff, but one thing that has always nagged me is why space marine chapters have librarians. Not the in-game reasons, but why they have them according to the back ground. According to the the council of Nicea (sp) the emperor declared that all the chapters librarium departments be disbanded and the battle brothers with psychic powers were to cease using them immediately. It was this ruling that caused the thousand sons to eventually turn triator, so at what point were the librariums re-established and under who's authority? Is there an answer that I have just never run across or is this one of the things that happened during the heresy or scouring that GW has just never gotten around to explaining? Any insight will be greatly appreciated.

heretics bane
28-08-2008, 15:52
After the heresy, libarians where proven to be useful for scouring the souls of marines to show any sing of taint and in new recuits.

And their pretty effective on the battle field aswell.

Well thats my take of it anyways.

pookie
28-08-2008, 15:54
who would look after all the books....

Joking aside, the only comment i can really pass at this time is that the Thousand Sons only turned Traitor after the SW attacked Prospero and Magnus knew that he couldnt stand alone against the Loyalist Marines and Traitor Marines, so joined with Horus and the other Traitors.

Simon Sez
28-08-2008, 16:00
I like to think that while the Thousand Sons were throwing a hissy fit all the other Legions were standing there going "Yes dad, yes dad. Now why don't you run off and play with the magic hole behind your chair again while we take care of those nasty libwawians, hmm?"

. . .

"stupid old duffer"

ChaosTicket
28-08-2008, 16:06
The Thousand Sons never turned Traitor. They were if anything the most loyal to the Emperor, acting as a Legion of Librarians. Unfortunately they did not listen to the Emperor when he warned them of using sorcery and daemons.

The Emperor sent the Space Wolves to apprehend Magnus the Red after Magnus tried to warn the Emperor or Horus' corruption. The Space Wolves however fought the Thousand Sons because they would not submit to scrutiny. The Space Wolves then began to purge the Thousand Sons homeworld of Prospero, as they believed the Thousand Sons to just be a legion of Witches.

Librarians are the only ones in the Chapters with Direct knowledge of how to fight daemons,a nd the only ones to actually have abilities(psychic powers and weapons) that daemons are vulnerable to.

narrativium
28-08-2008, 16:15
pookie: it's not as much of a joke as you're thinking. The Librarians' responsibilities to the Chapter include keeping a record of the Chapter's history; there's actual bookwork involved.

heretics bane
28-08-2008, 16:19
The Thousand Sons never turned Traitor. They were if anything the most loyal to the Emperor, acting as a Legion of Librarians. Unfortunately they did not listen to the Emperor when he warned them of using sorcery and daemons.

The Emperor sent the Space Wolves to apprehend Magnus the Red after Magnus tried to warn the Emperor or Horus' corruption. The Space Wolves however fought the Thousand Sons because they would not submit to scrutiny. The Space Wolves then began to purge the Thousand Sons homeworld of Prospero, as they believed the Thousand Sons to just be a legion of Witches.

Librarians are the only ones in the Chapters with Direct knowledge of how to fight daemons,a nd the only ones to actually have abilities(psychic powers and weapons) that daemons are vulnerable to.


Erm your missing some pretty key bits of fluff there...

The SW where sent to take magnus into custody but horus told them to have them en route to be destroyed and so attacked prospero.

And the knowledge of deamons isnt really a thing marines would have a lot of info on as A)its heretictal B) its dangerous material.

ChaosTicket
28-08-2008, 16:24
You really don't get that the Horus Heresy books are not cannon do you?

Oh, and knowledge of daemons means you can A Kill them, B know where they will return, and C actually know how to seal them if they are too powerful to kill.

pookie
28-08-2008, 16:33
pookie: it's not as much of a joke as you're thinking. The Librarians' responsibilities to the Chapter include keeping a record of the Chapter's history; there's actual bookwork involved.

oh i know, but at the time of typing thats all i pt, i went back and edited what i put because it really wasnt helpfull to the OP Question.


You really don't get that the Horus Heresy books are not cannon do you?

erm yes they are, there as Canon as all other publications that come out of GW, wether you choose to feel they are canon or not is irrelivant.

heretics bane
28-08-2008, 16:59
You really don't get that the Horus Heresy books are not cannon do you?

Good thing i know they are:eyebrows:

All of which is heretical, thats why there seen as a "moral threat" and thats left up to the grey knights to fix not marine chapters.

LexxBomb
28-08-2008, 17:46
if the council of Nicea had banned the use of Pyschers completely then what the hell was the Emperor doing experimenting on a webway (which in itself requires psychic powers). The Council banned sorcery ... big difference between the two.

Industrial Propaganda
28-08-2008, 17:57
The Thousand Sons never turned Traitor. They were if anything the most loyal to the Emperor, acting as a Legion of Librarians. Unfortunately they did not listen to the Emperor when he warned them of using sorcery and daemons.

With his psychic message to warn the Emperor, Magnus destroyed the runes who protected the Warp Gate behind the Golden Throne. Because him, the daemons could travel through the Warp to invade Terra.

That's why the Emperor was angry.

But this was just what Tzeentch wanted. Or not :p

Brother Enok
28-08-2008, 18:04
Horus Heresy not canon? oooook...

I though the Emporer outlawed it because it was dangerous stuff, and could have lead to worship of the warp enteties. A slippery slope. Also, i never knew the wolves where ordered to attack Prospro, Just though the ignorant barbarians did some creative interprating of the big E' orders.

Khaine's Messenger
28-08-2008, 18:54
There is a conflicting story about the events that transpired on Nikea, you know. The "Librarian compromise," straight out of the Thousand Sons Index Astartes article, which paints the whole thing in a much rosier light for the Imperium. Fluff nuts have been trying to rationalize the two depictions of events ever since the publication of the HHCCG art volume in which the "new" version of the Nikea decision was published. Do a search if you don't believe me.

But the point that I imagine the whole of the HH background (new and old) tries to get across is that the Imperium is run by a bunch of lying, duplicitous bastards trying to steer the waves of cultural inertia. At the highest tiers, doublethink is a valid way of running things, and we've always been at war with Eastasia and don't you dare say different, what traitor put up those signs condemning our glorious ally Eurasia? Literally changing the history books to suit their own agendas isn't out of the question. The fact that we like to fawn over the Space Marines as being a bit more "enlightened" than the squalid mass of politicians and slaves that makes up the rest of the Imperium doesn't change the fact that Space Marine chapters and their leadership can be lying, duplicitous bastards, too. Even if they're only lying to themselves. For reasons good or ill.

So you can take either story at face value if you like and dismiss the other as hooey. You could take both of them, although down that route madness lies. What it really boils down to is how high you want to pile it and how thick you want to layer the (intentional or unintentional) nuances. I wouldn't suggest thinking too deeply on it, though. ;)

ryng_sting
28-08-2008, 19:06
Psykers were banned at Nikaea. Not all the Legions were eager to follow it, hence the Chaplain edict. After the Heresy either the necessity of using their powers became clear, and the power to reinstate (and enforce) the ban waned as the Primarchs died/vanished. The Imperium, as it so often does, rewrote its own history - in this case to explain the role of psykers in the military.

Col. Kurtz
28-08-2008, 20:06
So there is no real answer to why the librarians were re-instituted? Aside from discussions of whether or not the 1,000 sons were traitors, or what is cannon or not, are there any references to why they were brought back one way or the other? :confused:

Lord Inquisitor
28-08-2008, 20:08
I like to think that I am fairly familiar with 40k fluff, but one thing that has always nagged me is why space marine chapters have librarians. Not the in-game reasons, but why they have them according to the back ground.
In a word? Communication. Blowing stuff apart with psychic powers or reading the minds of the enemy have their tactical uses, but the main, overriding reason that the Adeptus Astartes have Libraria is for battlefield communication. While not as capable of long-distance transmitting as a soul-bound astropath, Librarians are trained to maintain communication within a Chapter particularly if conventional methods are nonfunctional or compromised. This is the reason the Chapters run the risk of allowing Warp-tainted within their ranks at all - all of the devastating psychic powers are a bonus.


There is a conflicting story about the events that transpired on Nikea, you know. The "Librarian compromise," straight out of the Thousand Sons Index Astartes article, which paints the whole thing in a much rosier light for the Imperium. Fluff nuts have been trying to rationalize the two depictions of events ever since the publication of the HHCCG art volume in which the "new" version of the Nikea decision was published. Do a search if you don't believe me.
Personally, I much prefer the IA article. It simply makes vastly more sense (a much better written article from a real-life perspective!). Outlawing sorcery makes way more sense than the Libraria altogether. It also avoids the perplexing question as to how this edict was overturned.

LexxBomb
28-08-2008, 20:15
I agree with Lord Inquisitor it also makes sense becauser otherwise the Emperor should have been shot for being a psycher actively using his powers.

Col. Kurtz
28-08-2008, 20:22
I know it's not universally accepted fluff, but in the horus heresy books the council of nicea doesn't outlaw any use of psykers, just the use of librarius deparments in the space marines chapters. There were still astopaths, navigators, the Big E, etc. the council was really only concerned with the space marines, more specifically the charges from Leman Russ that Magnus was a sorcerer. So the question becomes if the Emperor declared that there were to be no more librarians, at what point did that change? After the heresy, during the heresy, etc. and if there is any info on the subject, what is the source?

Helsing
28-08-2008, 23:51
I will state this as simply as possible.

Librarians write down the chapters history, preserve it, copy it and occasionally use it. That was their first purpose, also because some of the stuff that they read is either damned or heretical or possessed or sentient, they have to have a will of iron. Also, seeing as how its been around ten thousand years since the Emperor went vegetable, I think he and those one thousand space marine chapters stopped caring.

Helsing.

x2wyckedx
29-08-2008, 03:25
I think it goes along the same lines as why is the Emperor now worshiped as a god when during the crusades he was telling people there are no gods. It is obvious that he was lying to try and "protect" the Imperium but after he died those in charge just said screw it were gonna paint a pretty picture and make this dead guy a god and allow librarians to be used cause we like it. Its all against what the Emperor wanted but its what happened. I think if the Primarchs ever came back they would be appalled at how things are.

Goruax
29-08-2008, 03:58
IIRC, it's mostly portrayed that the Council decreed sorcery to be outlawed.
This involved communion with warp-entities, worship, sacrifice, etc, most prominently practised (regardless of intent) by the Thousand Sons.

Librarians, and other Imperial psykers utilise warp energy, but do not, or for the most part, contact or barter anything with the denizens of the warp.
One of the prime concerns of Librarians-to-be is their psychic resilience, and the ability to shut out the capricous nature of the warp, and that only the strong willed can use the warp 'objectively'

Schismotive
29-08-2008, 04:08
That's one thing I like the Black Templars for, they took the idea of destroying all witches and the lot, and their codex specifically says the only psychers they tolerate is grey knights.

The history of 40k (namingly the imperium) is huge. Theres so much info GW created. Theres this really cool conspiracy theory, and that the whole heresy was propaganda, or not what it really was. What if the Emperor never REALLY did slay Horus in his own battle barge, defeat the unstoppable (until that exact moment) heretics, and save mankind? :eek:
It also seemed like a possibility that many of the betraying legions were either muscled into joining Horus, or were corrupted by him. Somebody was playing favorites. :cool:

anyway, yeah, I never really liked librarians anyway. I like the zero-tolerance rule as opposed to the "you can do it if you really want to, just be careful" rule.

Alessander
29-08-2008, 04:19
Same reason why Marine Chapters don't have baneblades, stormtrooper squads, Commisars and Lightning fighter jets in the post-heresy era.

Guilliman's Codex Astartes (aka The Dummies Guide to Genetically Enhanced Super-Soldiers™) changed around a LOT of things that the Emperor originally penned during the Great Crusade. The Marine Legions and the Imperial Army were organized and structured by the Emperor during the Crusade. When a reshuffle was required, it dawned on the Patriarch in Blue that "perhaps some of Dad's ideas need rethinking". This included Librarians. The Emperor didn't complain, and he never spoke up about the matter since (or perhaps he did, but like the occasional senile grand-uncle at family gatherings, everyone ignored him).

The Council of Nikea didn't ban psykers (navigators and astropaths are psykers the Imperium requires to function), it just stopped the Librarius program and merged the psychically gifted marines back into the rank-and-file of the Legions and forbid them from using their powers. Pretty much a psychic version of the USA's "don't ask don't tell" policy.

Zherghegg
29-08-2008, 04:30
I think it goes along the same lines as why is the Emperor now worshiped as a god when during the crusades he was telling people there are no gods. It is obvious that he was lying to try and "protect" the Imperium but after he died those in charge just said screw it were gonna paint a pretty picture and make this dead guy a god and allow librarians to be used cause we like it. Its all against what the Emperor wanted but its what happened. I think if the Primarchs ever came back they would be appalled at how things are.

This is what I pretty much imagine is GW's perspective as well. The imperium turns into the stagnant, corrupt entity the Emperor was fighting to prevent.

LexxBomb
29-08-2008, 04:35
This is what I pretty much imagine is GW's perspective as well. The imperium turns into the stagnant, corrupt entity the Emperor was fighting to prevent.

does that mean Nurgle won?

Chem-Dog
29-08-2008, 05:39
Isn't it just possible that the Nikea thing was rescinded by the Emperor after the Horus Heresy kicked in?
It's clear there were plans for the Sisters of Silence, Nathaniel Garro and other "Inquisitive" types WAY before the Heresy was in full swing, so the role of Psykers must have been concidered. Perhaps the NEED for Psykers was realised, too late to save poor, tragic Magnus though.....

Allen
29-08-2008, 06:39
The Emperor sent the Space Wolves to apprehend Magnus the Red after Magnus tried to warn the Emperor or Horus' corruption. The Space Wolves however fought the Thousand Sons because they would not submit to scrutiny. The Space Wolves then began to purge the Thousand Sons homeworld of Prospero, as they believed the Thousand Sons to just be a legion of Witches.


No, actually the Emperor ordered the Space Wolves to take back Magnus to Terra. Horus was aware of warning Magnus sent to the Emperor, and contacted Russ and his mixed task force of Space Wolves and Custodes...he ordered to kill Magnus, because he was tainted by Chaos.

No one, not even Russ, questioned this new order: Horus was the favourite son of the Emperor, the Warmaster of the Imperium. Every word coming from his mouth was a word from the Emperor himself. Russ followed this new order, and sacked Prospero wounding Magnus in the process, nearly killing him. This was interpreted as a betrayal by Magnus and his Legion, who were sure that the order of destroying the Thousand Sons and their Primarch came directly from the Emperor. They turned to Chaos in retaliation.

Of course all that was a quite simple plan of Tzeentch to gain a legion of followers.

Zherghegg
29-08-2008, 09:27
does that mean Nurgle won?

hey fellow aussie!
all things end and decay, nurgle always wins in the end... :chrome:

Adra
29-08-2008, 09:44
"No one said there would be paperwork...."

DapperAnarchist
29-08-2008, 12:23
Its a fundamental feature of the universe. There is always paperwork.

The Codex Astartes changed things. Simple as that.

The Thousand Sons were in trouble for what they had SPECIFICALLY been told not to do, that is, consorting with Warp Entities (Daemons, and Warp Fauna maybe). Knowledge of Daemons is not simply knowledge - it is a thing with its own existence, that corrupts and controls. Writing the rune name of a Daemon can cause the paper to change - rot, burn, change colour, whatever. Getting involved with them is ALWAYS a bad idea.

Even Astartes (including Librarians) know very little about Daemons. A Space Marine who serves with the Ordo Malleus is brainwiped afterwards, to get rid of the taint. Only the Grey Knights and certain Ordo staff are left untouched. Daemons are not like heretics or xenos, they are infinitely corrupting. H.P. Lovecraft is the master of this sort of thing.

Nicha11
29-08-2008, 23:59
ok this may be wrong but this is what I have read.

At the council of Nikea Magnus was arguing with someone else over wether pyskic power should be used. It was getting pretty close and no body was sure which way it would go.

The a bunch of librarians turn up and offer a compromise no more sorcery and only psykers space marines get are librarians. Big E agrees.

But thats just what i've read.

LexxBomb
30-08-2008, 00:24
I seem to remember that. wasn't that in a Whiote Dwarf article about 6 years ago.