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complexfire
28-08-2008, 19:19
2250 - VC - Vegas GT list

Okay chaps. I have played and played and like my army. I am going for looks & feel hence Skellies and Zombies and all that fun stuff. I would like some feedback including armies that are going to kill me (and be at the GT).

Cheers
-Complexfire

Vampire Lord

Level 3 Upgrade
Sword of Striking
The Flayed Hauberk
Dispel Scroll
Crown of the Damned
Master of the Black Arts
Forbidden Lord
Lord of the Dead

11 Skeleton Warriors **Lord Goes here**
Full CMD
Shields/Light Armor
War Banner


Vampire
Black Periapt
Helm of Commandment
Lord of the Dead
Dark Acolyte


Vampire
Biting Blade
Walach's Bloody Hauberk
Infinite Hatred
Walking Death


10 Skeleton Warriors **Both little Vamps go here**
Full CMD
Shields/Light Armor
Banner of the Endless Nightmare


30 Zombies **Deployed 15x2**


Corpse Cart w/Balefire

Corpse Cart w/Balefire

Corpse Cart w/Unholy Load stone


Lord of the Barrows
Steed
Barding
Lance
The Hand of Dust

5 Black Knights **Lord of Barrows goes here**
Full CMD
Barding
Banner of Hellfire


Varghulf

Black Coach

Total = 2245

10 PD 6DD (+1 PD and/or DD due to saving)
4 Bound Items

Stinkfoot
29-08-2008, 02:09
You have an exceedingly small list. You have two infantry blocks capable of fighting, two units of flankers and the black coach. Most armies will have, easily, twice your numbers in both categories. What will you do when they wrap around your flanks? Moreover, a list with any shooting can easily take out a unit of skeletons in a round of shooting if they get the first turn.

I think the reason you have so few spare points is your three (!) corpse carts. Two carts is almost always too much, 3 is simply a huge waste of points. Drop two of them and invest in another block of infantry. I'd probably drop the zombies (save them for raising) and get another unit of flankers (think black knights) as well. I'd also drop the wight on your existing cavalry as they really don't need him (they're flankers, after all). With all that should get you three units of cav and three units of infantry (maybe four). That would be a much better army, in my opinion.

Other points:
-Crown of the Damned is a bad call on your lord. The ward save isn't worth stupidity. If you must have the ward, take walach's and dread knight (expensive, but it's hard to get ward saves on vampires).
-The sword of might is better than the sword of striking.
-I don't think the black coach is a wise buy in a tournament when you'll surely see cannons. Another Varghulf or a unit of wraiths would almost certainly do more damage, though a Coach is certainly very cool.

complexfire
29-08-2008, 18:03
Yes I agree with you. I do have a small amount of Rank and File. I am 18w-1d-3l overall right now. My units tend to be about 20-24strong and the zombies 60+ by the time combat comes around.

Against shooty armies I deploy zombie shield in front of the skeletons to try a mitigate loosing the skellie units.

I use the blacknights + Black coach in tandem with each other to hit rank+file units to some success (the knights don't always make it), the coach rocks! That thing is a dragon in abilities that only get super silly as the game progresses.

The only thing I disagree with is the corpse carts. Besides looking AWESOME they really rock. The two balefire (which stack) carts mean the enemy is at -2 to there rolls... any they kill gobbos and the like :) (and fast cav! :))


Cheers
-Complexfire

PS I agree about stupidity. But what else can I do to help save my Lord (who likes the combat?)

Hampa
29-08-2008, 19:08
Just give him the crown, to many a time i regret not taking it. The stupidity is only a small disadvantage compared to the 4+ ward save !

complexfire
29-08-2008, 19:31
I have played with and without it... Now I am going to jinx myself but he has not failed (YET!). He is in combat by turn 3-4...

I just wish I had some other choice to protect the vamp. So much out there can kill a T5 3W char so fast.. 2+ Armor is not enough... and 5+ Ward.. Suspect!

Besides I am using the winged vamp so Stupidity tends to fit! :)

bork da basher
29-08-2008, 20:03
i say beware dwarfs above all else. in GT's be prepared for the dwarf gunline which will proberly see you without a model on the table by turn 3. dwarfs natural dispelling goodness will make it hard to cast as it is and with the immense shooting casualties you will suffer you will constantly be playing catch up attempting to rebuild units before they dissapear entirely. if you make it into combat dwarfs lowest LD is what 9 so fear isnt going to be a big player for you and i doubt you'd be in a position to outnumber and hope for autobreaks.

beware SAD skaven lists too which are always present at GT's. again you will face huge amounts of firepower, heavy magic offense and good defence and be vastly vastly outnumbered.

personnally i think small vampire centred armies are hard to play with. all your hopes rely on your bloodsuckers and your magic phase. your vamps arnt that hard to kill and your magic phase can be shut down or rendered next to useless with relative ease. i dont play undead myself so i cant offer you any advice but i reckon theres a few changes to be made. against some armies you will do well but its all too common in big events to see heavy magic offense/defense and heavy shooting armies which will tear your small and seemingly weak army apart.

one thing i cannot understand besides for the sake of being fluffy is to PAY for zombies. a good magic phase would give you that unit for free.

complexfire
29-08-2008, 20:12
My biggest concern is SOD... Skaven, Dwarfs, Empire in that order..

Besides hoping I can get first turn and raise raise raise I'm not sure what all I can do.. Hide perhaps?

That doesn't seem fun.

I guess it will be luck of the draw! :)

Cheers
-Complexfire

Stinkfoot
30-08-2008, 02:09
If you're raising 30 zombies in addition to everything else you do in the magic phase before you see combat, you certainly don't need to buy a unit of them.

How skilled would you say your opponents are? That's an impressive win record, but winning is about more than a good list (in fantasy at least).

Dark_Mage99
30-08-2008, 11:00
I disagree - I think it's important to buy zombies. Sometimes you can't raise them to the numbers you need, and they are one of (if not the) most important unit in the army.

I like the shield idea. My only concern is that your battleline is 2 units wide - what do you do to stop fast units getting round your flanks?

Don't worry about the Crown on the Vamp. The 4+ Ward is incredibly handy, and the risk of stupidity very small (especially if you get to combat with him).

Benigno (WE)
30-08-2008, 11:32
You should protect better your small vampires. T4 and 2 wounds, with few protection, any "Mage hunter" unit will kill them in beginning of the game, and your magic phase will became ridiculous.

Introducing them in small units of skeletons will not save them :p

Stinkfoot
30-08-2008, 16:44
... [zombies] are one of (if not the) most important unit in the army.

I'm not sure I agree with you there. How so?

Benigno (WE)
31-08-2008, 12:34
I'm not sure I agree with you there. How so?

They are zounds, they rise fast, they are unbreakable... The perfect anvil. I agree with him.

nikolai7
31-08-2008, 12:48
They are zounds, they rise fast, they are unbreakable... The perfect anvil. I agree with him.

zombies are a liability.. when they are in combat they do account for ranks outnumbering etc which is useful but they are ws1 and t2 with no save and pretty much always going last all a decent opponent has to do is hack into that unit and score heaps of wounds and the combat is harder to win for the vc's

Stinkfoot
31-08-2008, 18:18
zombies are a liability.. when they are in combat they do account for ranks outnumbering etc which is useful but they are ws1 and t2 with no save and pretty much always going last all a decent opponent has to do is hack into that unit and score heaps of wounds and the combat is harder to win for the vc's

It's true. Anvil units are supposed to hold enemy charges are wait for flanker support to break enemy units. That doesn't work with zombies, because the enemy can often win the combat even after flankers arrive due to the weakness of zombies in combat. Static CR is great, but if you can't preserve it then your presence in a combat is meaningless and often even negative.

Anyway, skeletons raise about as fast as zombies since you can cast IoN with one die and Raise Undead takes 2. Plus skeletons actually fill the purpose of an anvil unit but not dying in droves to goblins. Skeletons are an awesome anvil, zombies are just a distraction.

nikolai7
31-08-2008, 21:08
Pesonally my army is made up of "anvil" units and its designed without a hammer.. concentrate on keeping your units up to strength and getting off vanhels as much as possible and grind your opponent down in combat

EvC
01-09-2008, 00:04
I have played with and without it... Now I am going to jinx myself but he has not failed (YET!). He is in combat by turn 3-4...

You have played how many games with the Crown of the Damned, taking at least two stupidity tests a game and not failed it yet? So are you just extremely lucky, or forgetful? Or do you just mean the Lord in general has not failed you in-game? :)

Arisen
01-09-2008, 09:33
If you are having 2 vamps in a skeleton unit give them the tomb blade! my unit of skeletons has a vampire like this:

1 Vampire - 100
Battle Standard Bearer - 25
Banner of the Dead Legion - 25
Tomb Blade - 25
Dark Acolyte - 30
Lord of the Dead - 15
TOTAL - 220

And is almost legendarily unkillable im my gaming group (I use zombies as a screen while he is adding models to the group - Nehek-spamming ftw!)

Hvidponi
01-09-2008, 09:46
I played with crown of the damned in 2 turneis... Thats 10 games... I failed twice, once per turnie... Didn't matter much for my combat lord, but in my magic army lost a round of magic is very bad... I like to equip my lord with flayed hauberk and the gem of blood, or mount him with walach hauberk... Problem is that I like to protect all my vampires with flayed hauberk and gem of blood...

EvC
01-09-2008, 10:45
Yeah I often fail my Lady's stupidity test once per game (At a tournament I kept track: 20 turns or so when I had to test, and I failed 5 times. I am honestly the unluckiest player in existence, I think). But as she's a combat Lord, her failures did not matter too much. If she had been a magic-heavy Lord then every failure would be crucial and mean an entire magic phase with no raising- when your core units are starting with 10 or 11 troops, that can be a game-loser...

complexfire
02-09-2008, 20:06
If you're raising 30 zombies in addition to everything else you do in the magic phase before you see combat, you certainly don't need to buy a unit of them.

How skilled would you say your opponents are? That's an impressive win record, but winning is about more than a good list (in fantasy at least).


I disagree - I think it's important to buy zombies. Sometimes you can't raise them to the numbers you need, and they are one of (if not the) most important unit in the army.

I like the shield idea. My only concern is that your battleline is 2 units wide - what do you do to stop fast units getting round your flanks?

Don't worry about the Crown on the Vamp. The 4+ Ward is incredibly handy, and the risk of stupidity very small (especially if you get to combat with him).

I started this list off with three units of skeletons. I figured I would just raise zombies. here is my problem with that. I have to use at least two dice to use raise dead (and swap out another spell to get it unless I roll a 1) my opponents normally dispel at least one raise dead so I have to throw another 2 dice into getting the unit. I found I was giving up lots of pts raising a small unit then having them killed by my enemy. People are less inclined to dispel invocation for some reason.

I don't have much besides terain to top flankers. I normally have my skellies and a cart behind the zomebies with the vamps peeking out for LOS. Though my deployment changes from time to time depending on terrain etc.. I try to but the army up to something like woods, impassable etc.. To make it more difficult to side swipe. Worse case I have to reform a unit getting ready to be hit hard in the side.

Oh this weekend I managed to get snarsnik(sp) and his unit sideswiped by the zombies, broke the unit (lucky for me) and killed them all. (Unit ran into the black nights in combat next to them and died!!!) YAAAY ZOMBIES!

complexfire
02-09-2008, 20:08
You have played how many games with the Crown of the Damned, taking at least two stupidity tests a game and not failed it yet? So are you just extremely lucky, or forgetful? Or do you just mean the Lord in general has not failed you in-game? :)

I guess lucky as of right now.. :) Though because I have mentioned it I will fail all the time with the damn thing.. I don't wish to extol his of my virtue but he has not died and has not become stupid. Its probably the dice gods lolling me into a false sense of security before the GT. Then they shall smite me!!

Cheers
- Complexfire

complexfire
02-09-2008, 20:11
If you are having 2 vamps in a skeleton unit give them the tomb blade! my unit of skeletons has a vampire like this:

1 Vampire - 100
Battle Standard Bearer - 25
Banner of the Dead Legion - 25
Tomb Blade - 25
Dark Acolyte - 30
Lord of the Dead - 15
TOTAL - 220

And is almost legendarily unkillable im my gaming group (I use zombies as a screen while he is adding models to the group - Nehek-spamming ftw!)

I like him, However How do you stop him from getting killed in H2H.. No save T4.. He seems sqwishy... (people like to smite my little vamps hence why I don't use a Battle Standard)

Cheers
-Complexfire

Nkari
02-09-2008, 21:07
Cant bave a magic standard AND magic wpn.. so no tomb blade.

complexfire
10-09-2008, 05:40
Just wanted to give a quick update on how things went.

I made only one adjustment. I swapped out the banner of +4 rank bonus for the banner of double Unit Strength on the unit of 11 skeletons.

I went 4W - 0D - 1L came in 21st overall and won Fav. Opponent!

Had a true blast. Some highlights include baiting a really nice chap with a bloodthirster into difficult terrain on turn 2 and having him take 3 turns to get clear of it! Then in desperation he charged the generals unit w/ 24 skeletons in it. Champ challenged and the bloodthirster only did 2 wounds. He lost combat by 4 (3ranks+outnumber+Banner+War Banner) and roll box cars. Killing the bloodthirster! In the same game my vargulf killed all three heralds on jugger chariots!

Other highlights include my black nights unit w/ wright lord killing epidemas and a nugle herald from the same unit on the charge (killing blow on both models!)

The wright lord also killed a dark elf general (killing blow) off the back of a dragon. However I lost the game (got massacred). This was the last game of the GT. My general failed his stupidity test turn 2 stumbled forward and got hit by the dragon w/lord, hero on a Pegasus and 2 hydras!!! Needless to say they won combat (by 18 no less) my lord tried to save 10 wounds but failed 4 and went poof!!! he charged his lord into the killing blow nights so I could save face. It was very very nice of him indeed.

Had a real blast and everyone loved my army. Shame about the general freaking out and going stupid in the last game. Its the first time he has ever really let me down! But I said I was going to jinx myself and I did.

Thanks everyone for the suggestions!!!

Cheers
-Complexfire

Dark_Mage99
12-09-2008, 03:09
Thanks for the report, complexfire, sounds like an awesome time. And congrats on such a good placing!

Sounds like you did well against the multitude of Daemon armies. Have you had much success against them with the list prior to the tournament? Did anything work particularly well against them?

Nimrod Rimshot
12-09-2008, 11:08
My general failed his stupidity test turn 2 stumbled forward and got hit by the dragon w/lord, hero on a Pegasus and 2 hydras!!! Needless to say they won combat (by 18 no less) my lord tried to save 10 wounds but failed 4 and went poof!!!

Am I getting something wrong here? Your Lord lost combat by about 18, so he looses 18 wounds. As he only has 4, he dies, no saves allowed, right?

Dark_Mage99
12-09-2008, 11:28
Ward saves can be taken against crumbling now.

EvC
12-09-2008, 12:04
Had a true blast. Some highlights include baiting a really nice chap with a bloodthirster into difficult terrain on turn 2 and having him take 3 turns to get clear of it!

How come it took him so long? Why didn't he just fly out?

My general failed his stupidity test turn 2 stumbled forward and got hit by the dragon w/lord, hero on a Pegasus and 2 hydras!!! Needless to say they won combat (by 18 no less) my lord tried to save 10 wounds but failed 4 and went poof!!!

Hehe, knew your luck wouldn't hold out forever ;) That's why I wouldn't have the stupd crown on a Dragon, being out on its own doing nothing for a turn is killer!

But sounds like you played well otherwise :)

complexfire
12-09-2008, 21:04
Thanks for the report, complexfire, sounds like an awesome time. And congrats on such a good placing!

Sounds like you did well against the multitude of Daemon armies. Have you had much success against them with the list prior to the tournament? Did anything work particularly well against them?

Yes I did well against the Daemons. Some of it was luck and some was planned. I have do well against all daemons besides Tzeench. But also who has done well against them! :)

The banner of burning hellfire on the nights worked very VERY well indeed. Especially against the nurgle. Punishing the heralds worked very very well.

As far as Khorne goes, bloodletters are very soft indeed. The hit like a tonne a of bricks. Using the vargulf to eat heralds worked so well indeed.

Attrition is your friend when fighting daemons. Undead crumble but we only loose one model per point lost by in combat res. Daemons have to roll thus giving you the possibility of killing many many daemons in one turn of combat even if winning by a small number. Also we can raise which helps!

complexfire
12-09-2008, 21:05
Ward saves can be taken against crumbling now.

Oh yes.. Only the Vampire counts, Tomb Kinds (I think ) and Daemons (I know) are unable to make saves of any kind. The VC book states no armor saves only. So regen and wards work as normal. hehehe

complexfire
12-09-2008, 21:07
How come it took him so long? Why didn't he just fly out?


Hehe, knew your luck wouldn't hold out forever ;) That's why I wouldn't have the stupd crown on a Dragon, being out on its own doing nothing for a turn is killer!

But sounds like you played well otherwise :)

He was in woods so no flying for him! LOL

Yes I knew my luck wouldn't last and the crown punished me for it. All this time and when I needed it the most.. DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHH... Sods law really. But still we fought on and I had a grand ol' time. Still think I will keep the crown but we shall see :)

I have indy GT in Seattle to attend in early Nov. So maybe I will do better!

complexfire
12-09-2008, 21:10
Am I getting something wrong here? Your Lord lost combat by about 18, so he looses 18 wounds. As he only has 4, he dies, no saves allowed, right?

I lost combat by 18.. Killed the remaining 8 skeletons and left 10 wounds for the general. He needed to use his ward (which he can do for crumbling) to save 8 of those wounds to keep on fighting another round.. He made 6 of them.. Very Very close. It would have be amazing to save 8 or more and leave him with just the lord on a dragon in combat! I would have killed that silly elf in the long run..

But Alas.. he did try.

EvC
13-09-2008, 14:13
Edit: silliness deleted :D

Reminds me of a game I played where my Vampire Lady failed her stupidity test two turns in a row, whilst an enemy Savage Orc Boar Boy Big Uns unit rolled a 6 for animosity to bring them just within charge range of her unit's rear (Chances of this happening are about one in a thousand). They wiped out her unit on the charge and left her with 7 ward saves to pass- but I made them all. I was quite relieved :D

happy_doctor
13-09-2008, 14:49
EvC: As far as I can see from his list on the first page, his lord is on foot and joins an 11-strong skeleton regiment. So, no dragon for him! ;)

Complexfire: Congratulations on the good placing! Vampire Counts have taken a serious boost from their new book, but it still takes a good general (and luck) to make 4 wins in a GT!
Your list is nice (as in:not over the top), what with the lack of ghouls and relatively light magic phase. (I can't believe I'm actually using the definition "light" to describe a 10-PD,4 bound magic phase! But I've seen way worse!)

The only suggestion I'd make is to give your Wight King the Battle standard, as it will increase the survivability of your small army.

EvC
13-09-2008, 17:52
Oh, ignore my silliness. I wonder why I thought there was a Dragon in there?! Must have been thinking of anotehr mate's list :)