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supermonkey101
29-08-2008, 09:47
hi i am a doc player and can't find how to defeat blood knights full comand with the 4+ ward vs shooting thingie.what are your strtegies for taking them down.

currently i own

loc/kairos
HOT
blue scribes
10 blood letters
10 daemonettes
3 nurglings
\and 6 flamers

Mullitron
29-08-2008, 09:56
Wouldnt your lord of change be able to give them a bit of trouble? (assuming thats what loc is) Use its greater speed and get the charge to reduce their effectivness the unit champion has to either accept or issue a challange i believe. You should easily win against there champion and score additional wounds to win the combat. Also even with a 4+ ward vs shooting your flamers should be able to do quite a bit of hurt to them improving the chances of the combat going your way.

supermonkey101
29-08-2008, 10:01
good idea i have been using my loc as kairos but i might try this, any idea for daemonic gifts, maybe mos and use unseen lurker on himself to get into combat.

the flamers on average do 1-2 woulds and thats if they are within 9" and havnt moved witch is suicide.

ROCKY
29-08-2008, 11:13
ummm hello that banner protects from shooting no? well if u have kairos just pick the lore of metal and use spell non magical missle and watch his armor shatter. or u can do that with the blue scribes. or MoS with HOT

supermonkey101
29-08-2008, 11:52
i am guessing you mean the last spell on the lore.its a good idea although is a 12+ to cast.Unfortunately on average it kills only 4 and so the blood knights will be back on their feet/horses next turn. although the flamers and/or a the first in the metal lore.

Mullitron
29-08-2008, 12:09
i am guessing you mean the last spell on the lore.its a good idea although is a 12+ to cast.Unfortunately on average it kills only 4 and so the blood knights will be back on their feet/horses next turn. although the flamers and/or a the first in the metal lore.

Arnt blood knights harded to rez because there vampires tho? not arguing with you just curious since blood knights are vamps there harder to rez?

supermonkey101
29-08-2008, 14:17
yeh they get healed 1 wound for each casting but since they only have a wound each they would only take a casting each and since it can be cast on one dice and can be cast more than once per wizard it would probably get them to full strength.

also does that metal lore spell ignore armour because if so it would kill on average 6 any way.

Scythe
29-08-2008, 18:28
ummm hello that banner protects from shooting no? well if u have kairos just pick the lore of metal and use spell non magical missle and watch his armor shatter. or u can do that with the blue scribes. or MoS with HOT

Flag of the Blood Keep works against all ranged attacks.

ROCKY
29-08-2008, 18:32
Flag of the Blood Keep works against all ranged attacks.

so not just against missiles huh? hmmm well then i would suggest taking a herald of some sort (slaaneshi maybe) with the etherblade.

Nedar
29-08-2008, 19:31
Points? Your accessible forces seem quite small indeed. Best bet is daemonettes with a herald using the etherblade. You get to go first, have 4 attacks to kill 2 or 3 knights easy enough, then the rest of your little girls to try and eek another kill or two through the armor.

Though, since you have a Tzeench lord you might as well play to your strength and go for magic. Sure he has ward saves against ranged attacks, but can't make them all. Spirit of the forge with Twin Heads followed by 2d6 S4 magic missile and even the level 1 spell after that. The more you make him use his magic to keep the Knights up, the better you can deal with the rest of his army.

You should have a decent number of dispel dice to help mitigate healing the knights as much. Look into banner of Ecstasy for your 'nettes and get them charged. At that point flank him with Bloodletters and mop up.

supermonkey101
29-08-2008, 20:40
what is the s of a herald of slannesh because if its 4 you wont be averaging 2-3 with her.

the metal lore is still promising and will kill 2.5-3 a turn so it just takes 2 castings.

fubukii
29-08-2008, 21:47
cast the beast cowers on them and laugh as they never move for the rest of the game.

And it is very difficult to raise 4 blood knights, that requires 4 successful invocations that are cast on a 4+
NOw assuming he has a Ultra magic heavy army with 12 pd, THats only 6 successful casting of invocation on those kngiths, and thats assuming all of the vampire are in range to invocation them. and you dont dispel any invocations. ( which aint hard since they are lvl 4 5 or 6)

supermonkey101
30-08-2008, 09:37
good point my opponent only has like 8-12 pd and i have errm. 5dd.

beast cowers seems a good option to slow them but i still want hem dead so i dont have to cast it every turn.

Dark_Mage99
30-08-2008, 10:46
Hit them in combat with Khorne or Slaanesh stuff. If they get charged, they're not as good - especially against ASF.

Lore of Metal is good. You can't complain if one spell kills 4 (with the possibility for more). You still have other options on top of it. How about combining it with Siren Song on some Daemonettes with a Herald? Flamers. A 4+ ward doesn't save that much.

It's very tough to raise 4 back, and even if he does, that's his entire phase gone on one unit.

ROCKY
30-08-2008, 10:55
what is the s of a herald of slannesh because if its 4 you wont be averaging 2-3 with her.

the metal lore is still promising and will kill 2.5-3 a turn so it just takes 2 castings.

herald of slaanesh has 4 attacks S4 and WS 7 so you will most likely hit on 3s and say 3 hit (if you are a good roller) u could pull off 2 wounds with no armor saves. then with a frontage of 6: you will have 11 daemonnette attacks at WS5 so they will hit maybe 8 times. and they need a roll of 5 to wound so say 3-4 wounds and then vampires need 3-4 saves of 3+ (-1 for amor piercing so thats why 3+ rather than 2+). most likely he will roll at least a couple of ones or 2. so say 4 dead. vampires hit and most likely will wound a bunch but u got ward saves and banner of ecstacy. thus hang on and keep fighting and hopefully flank the bum with some letters :D

Dexter099
30-08-2008, 16:19
Arnt blood knights harded to rez because there vampires tho? not arguing with you just curious since blood knights are vamps there harder to rez?

Exactly. Because they are vampires and US2 each, Invocation of nehek can only raise one per successful cast. And once you kill 4 of them, then he loses his muscisian and champ too.

Disciple of Caliban
30-08-2008, 17:03
herald of slaanesh has 4 attacks S4 and WS 7 so you will most likely hit on 3s and say 3 hit (if you are a good roller) u could pull off 2 wounds with no armor saves. then with a frontage of 6: you will have 11 daemonnette attacks at WS5 so they will hit maybe 8 times. and they need a roll of 5 to wound so say 3-4 wounds and then vampires need 3-4 saves of 3+ (-1 for amor piercing so thats why 3+ rather than 2+). most likely he will roll at least a couple of ones or 2. so say 4 dead. vampires hit and most likely will wound a bunch but u got ward saves and banner of ecstacy. thus hang on and keep fighting and hopefully flank the bum with some letters :D

WHAT??

The maths is pretty simple here, so why trouble yourself with guessing it? for the herald 4 attacks = 2.6 hits = 1.3 kills
Cant remember blood knight WS, so i'll give deamonnettes the benefit of the doubt, and assume they hit on a 3 (though blood knights only having WS 4 seems poor to me) 11 attacks = 7.3 hits = 2.4 wounds = .81 kills.

That means the unit will average just over 2 kills (if Deamonnettes hit on a 4+ it drops to just below 2 kills), and will then be attacked by 3+ very angry vampires, meaning they're probably going to disolve without being able to hold the blood knights up nearly long enough for someone to flank them. Bear in mind, the blood knights would need to be held up for 2 combat phases to enable you to get another unit into their flank, unlikely with anything but plague bearers really.

As for beating the blood knights then the best options have been covered, magic is the weapon of choice for a tzeentch army, hit it enough and they will go down.

On another note, i'm guessing your playing 2k+ (otherwise the LOC couldnt be fielded) in which case you need a 3rd core unit to be legal. It can be really upsetting to put the effort into killing an uber unit, only for your opponent to point out you cheated to do it :)

logan054
30-08-2008, 17:35
well i think i would be very tempted to go with twin heads, master of sorcery, i think you have several lores you can choose from here.

Lore of Fire - sword of rhuin is rather nice on a lord of change, should allow him to take out a unit of blood knights no problem.

Burning head - not so good against his blood knights but you can use it to snipe characters in units, take out rank bonus etc.

Wall of Fire -This isnt actually a range attacked so no ward save, its better on larger units still might work on blood knights.

Lore of metal - Law of Gold - magic banner your say, thats ok, cast this and try and destroy the item ;) pretty handy generally against vampires, could be used to destroy items like book of arkan, items to make his characters immune to KB, all good fun :)

Spirit of the forge - oh yeah, you know it makes sense

Transmutation of lead - so make his unit suffer -1 to hit, to wound and and have a extra -1 one of their saves, cant be bad.

Lore of Light - Dazzling brightness - so he gets into combat with his Blood knights, well make them WS1 - good luck hitting :)

many other spells which are generally good against undead :)

Well hope that gives you some rough ideas anyways.

fubukii
30-08-2008, 18:02
i agree with everything logan said, lore of metal is the answer. law of gold > magic banners and spirit of he forge > knights :)

Scythe
31-08-2008, 09:36
It's very tough to raise 4 back, and even if he does, that's his entire phase gone on one unit.

Or a single close combat phase if a vampire with blood drinker joined the unit. I understand it is a pretty common combination, although it costs tons of points.

supermonkey101
31-08-2008, 10:13
definitely going with law of gold + spirit of the forge. on the subject of only 2 core units my friend has a lord to so the pretty much cancel each other out and so we let each other use a lord.

tehhelios
01-09-2008, 00:17
They have Frenzy, you have access to greater deamons..

The rest of his army cant be that big with this egg unit, you can easy sacrifice a unit and bait them so that your Greater deamon can flank and clean up the next turn.

This works, just need some practice, GL

Bran Dawri
01-09-2008, 04:29
Also, they're frenzied, so try to get some furies or another cheapo unit (your nurglings will do), bait them somewhere completely useless, and ignore them while they spend 2/3 movement phases going out of the game and then trying to get back in.
In that time, you should be able to deal with a lot of the rest of his army, and just avoid the knights entirely.
(And remember to dispel those Vanhels Dances!)

Billie Jones The Cat
08-09-2008, 16:18
Not fully related, but your army isn't even legal seeing as you only have two core units. Should probably do something about it.
About the Blood Knights, just fire away with sickening amounts of magic, bound to clean a 5 wound unit pretty fast. And get more core units.

Edit: Oh, Bolt of change would probably give them a nice smack upside the head and then fire away a nice ignore armour save spell.

Spirit
09-09-2008, 01:26
Not fully related, but your army isn't even legal seeing as you only have two core units. Should probably do something about it.
About the Blood Knights, just fire away with sickening amounts of magic, bound to clean a 5 wound unit pretty fast. And get more core units.

Edit: Oh, Bolt of change would probably give them a nice smack upside the head and then fire away a nice ignore armour save spell.

2+ save and 4+ ward does not make it easy to kill them with magic!

I would go with using using frenzy to their disadvantage, set them up for some charges they cant win, like a big nasty daemon who can challenge, he cant refuse and one blood knight champ isnt going to kill you, or of course, get the charge against him with a flying / slannesh lord and maul them in a combat phase.

isidril93
09-09-2008, 09:50
remember that your LoC is a realy good fighter. hit them in the flank and watch them die.