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Anton
29-08-2008, 23:17
Hi, I am going to restart collecting High Elves. I have an army that hasn't been used in a long time. My army was heavy on cavalry and magic, but now I want to turn my army towards infantry and close combat heroes. I will try to make a seafaring theme for them.

My first wonders are about magic items. Which are good, which are not? Can you give good combos for magic items on characters, magic banners on units, etc? Also, is it worth kitting out unit champs? Since some of them are allowed 25 points.

Also, what is a good magic defense? Since I'm going for low magic, all I want is a solid defense for as few points and character slots as possible. I'm thinking along the lines of a single mage with the item that converts one enemy PD to a DD of your own. I'm at 1000 points now, by the way. For 2000 points, I think two mages might be wise, one with that staff, and the other with dispel scrolls. What do you think?

Peachtacular
30-08-2008, 00:43
Here's my take on magic items from vaul's forge. About half of them absolutely suck. Period. In competitive play, I'd almost rather play X points down than play with said crappy X point item. The other half, however, are generally useful, some are powerful and some are must haves.

Let's start with magic weapons. Eww. We got the shaft here. IMO, both bows are excellent; I usually take the Reaver Bow with a noble on eagle. The Star Lance and White Sword have good perks, and work very well with the Talisman of Loec. All others are terrible in my view.

Magic Armor - Eww. Again. The only two worth taking IMO are Armor of Caledor and Helm of Fortune. This statement is pretty dismissive, but from a competitive eye, the rest have subpar abilities and/or abilities that are easily achieved elsewhere, such as from Shield of Saphery.

Talismans - Getting better. Vambraces of Defense is simply amazing. Always take this with a Lord if he's mounted on a giant flying thingy. Sacred Insense is very good against gunlines and Loremaster's Cloak is great denial against some armies. Yet both are situational. The rest fall into the same category as described under the armor section.

Arcane- Excellent. Almost every item on this list is worth taking, although some are much more situational. Items I commonly take are: Silver Wand, Jewel of Dusk and Seerstaff. I would stay clear of Sunfire Gem and Ring of Corin.

Enchanted - Very mixed. Radiant Gem of Hoeth and Ring of Fury are commonly seen in many lists, as well as Skeinsilver, Gem of Courage, Amulet of Light and Talisman of Loec. I would highly suggest taking Gem of Courage and Amulet of Light with unit champions. Useful trinkets are better than weapons/armor on unit champs IMO. The rest are more situational than a condom for a coma patient.

Banners - WOW. Every one is great. try them all out, they all rock. The Banner of Sorcery finds its way into every one of my lists.

Common Noble Kits for me
- Reaver Bow, Enchanted Shield on Eagle
- Star Lance, Talisman of Loec on Steed
- BSB with Armor of Caledor, Guardian Phoenix

Common Mage Kits for me
- Silver Wand, Ring of Fury
- Jewel of Dusk, Dispel Scroll
- Seerstaff, Dispel Scroll

Common Banners per Unit
- Elite Infantry with Banner of Sorcery
- Dragon Princes with Banner of Ellyrion
- Lion Banner/Balance Standard on anything vs fear

For 1000 points, a single mage is probably enough. I think the optimal setup would be Silver Wand with 2 Scrolls on a lvl2 mage, with Banner of Sorcery somewhere. This gives 5-7 PD with 3 spells, plus 3DD and 2 Scrolls from just one hero and a banner. Try out 1000 pts before thinking about 2k.

Hope this helps!

Anton
30-08-2008, 11:59
Thanks for the response.

It feels good that 1 mage is enough in 1000 pts. I really don't want to sink more in my new list.


As for magic defense - Can the items that give MR 1 and 2 respectively be a good choice for someone who doesn't want to buy several mages? The downside of those is that they require the enemy to direct spells at them. All he has to do is target someone else, or cast spells which aid his own troops.

I agree the magical bows seem nice, but I'm not sure what role they would fill. How are they best used? On a Eagle like you suggest? In a unit of Archers or Ellyrian Reavers? The white sword does seem very strong for my purposes.

I disagree with you about armor. The Golden Shield seems absolutely awesome for defense. Also, I think the Shadow Armor could fill a role. Having a hero with scouting is fun. :p

The Skeinsliver seems like a fun item. I will probably try using it. As HE are usually fast at deployment, a +2 to roll for first turn is nice.

As for the amulet of light - What do I need it for? Daemons nowadays have a normal 5+ ward. It's really only good versus forest spirits and ethereal creatures, as far as I see. Isn't this item very situational as well?

Yoru idea of a 1000 pts magic defense sounds interesting. I will try it out, and see if I like it. I still like the idea of a mage with Annulian Crystal though.

As for my general, a Noble. Is it a good setup to simply give him Armour of Caledor and a Great Sword? It's very cheap, and makes him a good hitter as well as a good defense. Should I take the 5+ Ward save as well? Or perhaps an item like the Skeinsliver.

I'm thinking I'll settle for two characters at 1000 pts. One mage and one noble. HE troops are to expensive to afford three chars.

Peachtacular
30-08-2008, 16:31
Banner of Arcane Protection is decent. I sometimes take it with Swordmasters or White Lions to give them a little more defense. MR is not a substitute for magic def however, but a complement. The most feared spells in the game, like Unseen Lurker and Comet of Cassandora, as well as every support spell doesn't target your unit.

The Reaver Bow is absolutely excellent. A noble's BS ensures hitting on a 2+ even with a single negative modifier. I use it conjunction with RBTs to cause panic tests, destroy enemy fast cav, take down the uber war machine crew...etc. While on an eagle, the noble can also mage hunt, march block and charge any soft target with the best of them.
Note: Never put chars with a magic bow in a unit of ranged attackers, as this would cause all models to shoot at the same unit. This is a self made restriction and thus inefficient.

The Golden Shield is very expensive. Let's compare it to Vambraces of Defense, probably the most popular defensive item we have. Both effectively halve the amount of attacks made against the lord, approximately at least because WS differences. The Vambraces certainly cost more, but also let you reroll armor saves - an excellent perk. But the biggest difference comes from the fact that VoD works against ranged attacks (very well I might add).
Every time a kit out a lord, Vambraces with Armor of Caledor is on top if he's on a dragon. If he's in a unit, the unit(as most all high elf units should) should aim to break the enemy on the first round and not have many attacks flying back at the lord. In my experiences, Elf Lords aren't attacked as often as others as we generally have to maneuver and create opportunities rather than going straight at the enemy with stupidly high stats.

Amulet of Light is indeed situational. It's also only as expensive as an elite trooper, can be taken by a champ and thus doesn't take out magic item allowance for heroes, and is absolutely invaluable when needed. It also affects the entire unit, not just the bearer.

Your setup for the noble is simple and effective. You could try giving him a trinket as well if you have points.

Good luck!

Anton
30-08-2008, 17:05
Thanks

True, that MR is not a substitute but a complement to magic defense.

The way you paint up a noble with the Reaver Bow sounds very tempting. I plan on using RBT's, so his aid can come in handy.

True, that the Vambraces give an extra bonus of rerolling AS. I guess the ultimate defensive Prince takes both, on a barded steed with Dragon Armor. :p Though that might not be wise, considering you will want some other stuff on your Prince as well.


As for Amulet of Light. Can we count the uses for it? Forest Spirits and Ethereals, as well as attacking characters with some kinds of magic items. What else do we have? You are absolutely right that it's dirt cheap, which makes it viable. I just wanna see where it comes in handy.

Anton
30-08-2008, 17:36
As for troops then. What tactics and troop types are good with the HE? I see the new list as quite variable. There is room for both magic heavy and magic low, infantry heavy, cavalry heavy etc.

I'll start by saying that with my Seafaring theme, I want mainly infantry, as I don't see horses transported across the sea as a good way of using space. So, it's a fluff thing, do you think it makes sense?

Is it best to focus on one aspect of the game for HE? Ie, can I have some melee infantry as well as a bit of shooting (RBTs, Archers, LSG), or is it best to focus on one of them? I'd like some kind of mixture, if it's possible.

For the troops, I have a few wonders. For example, Sea Guard. I love them, and they would fit right into my theme, but why do they seem so pointless, gameplay-wise? With shields, they are 4 pts above spearmen, and I can't really see the point. How do you use them tactically? It feels like you have to field a large block with frontage, so you get many shots. Or stand them on a hill. Or sit around and fire, then reform them to be ranked up before the charge. To me, they seem like a very defensive unit.

Is this true? What place do LSG fill in an army? I want them, but I'm not so sure.

Also, are Shadow Warriors useful? I like them too.

Mireadur
30-08-2008, 18:33
i believe temakador gauntlets and both shields are pretty good magical items too. Into talismans you forgot the 1 extra wound for 40pts, and the talisman of sapphery (extra good item to ensure a victory in duels) but all talismans are super good i believe.

I think 90% of the items are really to quite good while not overpowered, the problem comes with the in-depth studied point values which negate most of the possible combos. This is why you always see the same 3-4 combinations.

EDIT: More variety in magical weapons maybe? i think the ones there arent that bad though.

Anton
30-08-2008, 19:19
Temakador's Gauntlets are nice. I like Golden shield more than dragonscale shield.

winkypinky
30-08-2008, 20:46
If you want a rounded force with a little bit of each and a magic defence at 2k you could try and aim at something like this:
It has 2 combat characters who can hit hard enough. A battle line of 3 units that will be very hard to move. (korhil with spearmen)
It has some disruptive elements and some hard hitting elements for either going on the offence or to do quite devastating counter charges.

Mage: lvl 2, 2x dispel scroll.
175

Korhil.
140

Noble: BSB, dragon armour, shield, lance, barded elven steed, radiant gem of hoeth.
183

17 Spearmen: Full command
178

10 Archers.
110

18 White lions: Full command, warbanner.
320

13 Swordmasters: Musician.
201

5 Dragon princes: Musician.
160

5 Ellyrian reavers: Bows, spears, musician.
112

2 Tiranoc chariots.
2*85

2 Repeater bolt throwers.
2*100

1 Great eagle.
50

1999

Peachtacular
30-08-2008, 22:37
I think 90% of the items are really to quite good while not overpowered, the problem comes with the in-depth studied point values which negate most of the possible combos. This is why you always see the same 3-4 combinations.


This isn't a problem....It's called optimization. Given a specific situation, in a game such as this, there is an objective answer to which of two options is better. The optimal setup for a lord has been researched by many people concerning various contexts. If asked what is the best, you are likely to receive a setup that is optimal in one of the more common circumstances.
This in no way rules out possible combos. You are free to choose your list as you see fit.

I don't like the guantlets since we have Shield of Saphery. Guardian Phoenix falls into the same boat, but it's cost fits so nicely with Armor of Caledor that I take it with a BSB.

When I field LSG I use units of 10 and treat them as archers. They have the additional benefit that they can guard war machines and flank better than archers.
The average list for me usually consists of 1-2 fighty heros, 1-2 mages, a unit of spearmen (10-20), a unit of 10 archers, a full unit of elite infantry, another midsized unit of elite infantry, a flanking unit of dragon princes, 2-3 RBT and an eagle.

I've found that High Elves work best when they can play all 4 phases of the game. As an army that hates attrition, positioning is very key. Magic is very useful as it provides many tactical options for a fragile army. Shooting is key; being out shot and having T3 low armor sucks more than anything. And warhammer is commonly won and lost with break tests, so combat is obviously a necessary phase for pretty much any army. When I make my lists, I try to concentrate on the idea of balancing the phases. If you can dominate a majority of the phases, you will win.

tom1354788
30-08-2008, 23:11
One bit of advice, at 2000 points i would go for a arcmage over a lord (unless you go dragon) if your going magic defense only, its just a better use of points, and if you decise you actually want some offense get the banner of sorcery and you should do alright, normal mages imo are a little overpriced at this level only. (below and 1 is enough at 3000 you probably are wanting a dragon)

With this you can have 3 nobles, you should always have a BSB as and failed break tests will really hurt with so few troops. with gem of courage on this guy, you can charge anything nearly and be garunteed to hold for a turn, really really usefull for giving time for flank charges.

Next i run a noble with the reaver bow and great weapon, put him as a guardian for your bolt throwers and he can usually take on whatever units try and get your throwers, plus he has gets a few kills from shooting as well.


That is normally all i run as i like more points for troops, if i do do another character its usually a mage though, i find the high elf characters to fragile unless you kit them out defensive, in which case they dont make thier points back in combat I find.

Anton
30-08-2008, 23:13
Hmm, when you say "full" and "midsized" units of elite infantry, do you mean around 20 and 10 respectively?

About LSG - They only have bows, not long bows as archers. This is quite a downside when treating them as archers, I feel. I guess that they are meant as multitaskers.

Peachtacular
31-08-2008, 00:06
Full usually means 19, 5x4 with a char. And midsize is 12-15. 2x6 for frontage or 3x5 for ranks.

Bows have a range of 24, yes, but a defensive army (which yours will be) tries to force the enemy to cross the board. If you go first, yes you have to move up a few inches, so a -1 to hit will come into play. Oh well.

I agree that an archmage is the way to go in 2k. I tend to play 2250 so I have a little more wiggle room with chars.
These are 2 common setups I use:
Archmage w/Ring of Fury, Seerstaff, Scroll
Mage w/Jewel of Dusk, Scroll
Noble/w Reaver Bow on Eagle or Steed and armor/lance stuff
Noble BSB w/Armor of Caledor and Guardian Phoenix, GW

Prince w/Radiant Gem of Hoeth, Scroll, Armor of Caledor, Talisman of Loec, GW
Noble w/Star Lance or Reaver Bow on Steed
Mage lvl 2 w/Silver Wand, Ring of Fury
Mage lvl 2 w/Jewel of Dusk, Scroll

and of course
Teclis
Caradryan
Noble on Eagle with Reaver Bow

Other favorite setups of mine for lords are:
-Prince on Star Dragon w/Vambraces of Defense, Armor of Caledor, Amulet of Light, GW
-Prince with White Sword, Talisman of Loec, Armor of Caledor, Guardian Phoenix
-Prince on steed w/Star Lance, Talisman of Loec, Helm of Fortune
-Prince on steed w/Seafearer Bow, Helm of Fortune, ToL or GoC or AoL, Lance
-Archmage w/Ring of Fury, Annulian Crystal, Scroll
-Archmage w/Vortex Shard, Scroll
-Archmage w/Jewel of Dusk, Ring of Fury, Scroll

There's obviously more flexibility with lords, and sometimes it's better to go lighter on magic item allowance. An archmage with Jewel of Dusk and a scroll will still perform her roll well, and a prince with armor of caledor, talisman of loec and a GW is still a force to be reckoned with.

Mireadur
31-08-2008, 01:21
This isn't a problem....It's called optimization. Given a specific situation, in a game such as this, there is an objective answer to which of two options is better.

No that is not what i meant. What i meant is exactly what i said: The pricing on many items just leave place for those combos you call ''optimized''. In all reality it doesnt take rocket science to find which are them.


Prince w/Radiant Gem of Hoeth, Scroll, Armor of Caledor, Talisman of Loec, GW

Do you realize your prince is using 2 enchanted items there?


Prince on Star Dragon w/Vambraces of Defense, Armor of Caledor, Amulet of Light, GW

Since you appear to have the army mathhammerized to exaggeration, wouldnt you use a halberd rather than a GW when riding a star dragon? you'd save 6 points and chances are the rider will die way earlier than the monster. Specially in small games.


Temakador are actually the cheapest way to get an reliable ward save and a 1+ armour save on a mounted character and it surprises me you put your faith in shield of sapphery going off every round. Also i deduce you always cast that spell on the unit with your character/characters? seems somehow narrow when you can also use it to enforce other parts of the battlefield while your elite units stand their feet by themselves thanks to a very resilient and hard hitting character.

Peachtacular
31-08-2008, 02:55
I think 90% of the items are really to quite good while not overpowered, the problem comes with the in-depth studied point values which negate most of the possible combos. This is why you always see the same 3-4 combinations.

This is what I read and responded to.
You're right, it's not hard to figure out the better combos. But they do exist, and when asked what are the better combos, most people will give these 3-4 combinations. That's what I was saying.

Yes, thank you for pointing that out. I guess I could take off the scroll and talisman and add the seerstaff. That would allow to grab flaming sword of ruin. Which is awesome on a prince =p

You would use a halbered usually. But I tend to fight a lot of empire lists, so my dragon dying from multiple cannon shots is not uncommon. If you have 6 points extra while making the list, upping to a GW is a nice way to fill out points. (Musicians are probably first priority though).

I don't expect to get the spell off each turn, nor do I plan on casting it on the dragon prince + character unit every turn. I'm not dumb =D If you do however cast it, the ward save from the guantlets is redundant. My main argument however is that helm of fortune is cheaper, and much better against the attacks the noble will most likely face. The more common ignore armor save attacks come from shooting and magic - bolt throwers, cannons, stone throwers, uranons thunderbolt....etc. Being in a unit of cav, the only real fear he has of ignore armor save attacks is a magic weapon that does just that/is str 10ish. He will more commonly face str 4-6 attacks, against which helm of fortune performs better (1+AS reroll becomes 2-4+ reroll wheras guantlets always have 5+ for second roll), for cheaper. Only at str 8+ do the guantlets perform better.

CHOOBER SNIPES
31-08-2008, 04:50
I find the following very effective:
BSB Noble with a GW and Armor of Caledor with a block of Spearmen. The Noble brings morale and hitting power to the unit. He also can work well with a unit of Seaguard. I used this unit, and they didnt break ever when i put them on a hill. They stayed in a 2 rank unit till charged, and then reformed before combat. They may throw out S3 attacks, but the 3 S6 attacks from the noble, and the stand and shoot plus ASF 3 rank spear attacks really do get through, especially lower AS things. Then they get high ground and BSB and banner and warbanner (if you have it), ranks, and any kills for combat res. Alternatively, minimum units of 10 work great on a hill. They beat back light cav, and dont hurt if you lose em. Sadly, i believe that Seaguard are now a unit that you have 1 or 2 of, but not a whole army of them (not that you could really have an army of them before)

Mireadur
31-08-2008, 08:55
My point about the best few combos existing is because of some items arent so favourabily priced for the army, meaning that the pricing is the factor that makes some combos good and many other not worse, just unfeasible!


Yes, thank you for pointing that out. I guess I could take off the scroll and talisman and add the seerstaff. That would allow to grab flaming sword of ruin. Which is awesome on a prince =p

Man that one is a superb idea. I think im gonna try it today hahah. If he goes on foot could use lore of beasts and still get a decent armour equipment with those 55 points too hmm.


My main argument however is that helm of fortune is cheaper, and much better against the attacks the noble will most likely face. The more common ignore armor save attacks come from shooting and magic - bolt throwers, cannons, stone throwers, uranons thunderbolt....etc. Being in a unit of cav, the only real fear he has of ignore armor save attacks is a magic weapon that does just that/is Str 10ish. He will more commonly face Str 4-6 attacks, against which helm of fortune performs better (1+AS reroll becomes 2-4+ reroll wheras guantlets always have 5+ for second roll), for cheaper. Only at str 8+ do the guantlets perform better.

Yes you are totally right on this too, specially if prefer magicians over fighty guys. I use the helm as a 1st choice too but the gauntlets are still very good!