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robertsjf
30-08-2008, 01:04
For a codex chapter battle company, lets say the 3rd, where does the captains or company chaplains command squad come from? Drawn from the ranks of the company itself? Attached 1st company vets?

Jos
30-08-2008, 09:58
Codex chapters command squads are made up of "Specialists" (from an independent attatchment, apotecharies, techmarines a.s.f.) and "normal marines" drawn from the company.

Minister
30-08-2008, 11:20
In Codex chapters, each chapter maintains a small cadre of Veterans, often warriors who have earned Veteran status but have not yet been adopted into the 1st company. These Veterans usually form the Command Squad.

In addition to this each chapter has its own Company Standard Bearer, Apothecary, Chaplain and Captain. Whilst these warriors may have previously served in other companies, they are as much members of the company as any other.

Librarians, Techmarines and additional Chaplains and Apothecaries may be assigned to the company on a temporary basis, but they will not wear company heraldry.

robertsjf
30-08-2008, 15:15
So a command squad wouldn't eat up one of the numerary slots ie a full command squad with one special weapon and one heavy weapon wouldn't be the company's 1st tactical squad? The command squad is ultimately supernumerary?

Aliarzathanil
30-08-2008, 15:50
Where do Dark Angel company veteran squads come from. Seems like a lot of extra guys in a "100" man company...

robertsjf
30-08-2008, 16:54
That's the reason for my question. If we have 10 squad=100 men, and then we have capt, chaplain, standard bearer, apothecary and 7 other vets, we're looking at 111 men in a company inclusing the command staff. If, on the other hand, we assign command squad to, say, Tac squad 1, we only have 101 men. The shoulder insignia typically used argues against making the command squad numerary. I just wanted to find out what the consensus was...

ARM0R3D ASSASIN
30-08-2008, 17:31
i think it makes sence to take the marines who r considered veteran but not yet in the first company and gather them into the command squad (except forthe specialists like the apothacary or tech marine) so that way it would only eat away maybe 1 marine from a few squads, and one would be given maybe an aditional special weapon

MrBigMr
30-08-2008, 17:32
Command Squad Box...

I don't think the number is that fixed. I mean, where can anyone find a pure, whole company? Losses, and such make company numbers, evem whole chapter numbers wave back and forth all the time. 100 per company, 1000 per chapter is more of a guideline. If a company suddenly finds itself one man over 100 ("We have 32 casualties, send replacements." "I'm not dead yet." "Shut up."), does the Inquisition suddenly ("I didn't expect the Thorian Inquisition!") spur up and burns everyone? It's not like even the Ultramarines themselves follow the Codex that full to the letter.

robertsjf
30-08-2008, 18:11
Sure, but let's assume we're doing a full strength company. Battle company has come back to their homeworld to spend a few months recouping losses. reserve companies are all up to strength, good crop of scouts finalizing training. What does a full strength Battle Company look like including it's command squad?

Sephiroth
30-08-2008, 19:13
Sure, but let's assume we're doing a full strength company. Battle company has come back to their homeworld to spend a few months recouping losses. reserve companies are all up to strength, good crop of scouts finalizing training. What does a full strength Battle Company look like including it's command squad?

1X Captain.
1X Standard Bearer.
1X Apothecary.
1X Chaplain.
1X Company Champion.
2X Command Veterans.

60X Tactical Marines.
20X Assault Marines.
20X Devastator Marines.

1-3X Dreadnoughts.

Rhinos, Razorbacks, Bikes, etc all available as needed.

MrBigMr
30-08-2008, 19:14
Didn't GW sell a full company box set with Apocalypse? I quess that'd give one an idea on how it's organized.

Cuthlas
30-08-2008, 20:40
The Codex Astartes always said that a chapter consists of 1000 space marines (standing army) not including support, tech and command personnel (page 14-15 index astartes). Its only the standing army as such (ergo the 10 x 100 space marines that count; and that is not even correct, since the scout company (the 10th) varies in size all the time)



To quote myself from another post :D

The command unit doesn't count towards the 100 per battle company. So in effect a chapter consist of wayyyyy more then just a 1000 men. You didn't think that the spacemarines fly (do things fly in space ?...float ?...what ever :D) their own strike cruisers ? They have servitors tech peps and so on for that. Tank crews don't count towards the standing army but towards the support/tech.

I hope they do a more in depth story about the command units in the new SM codex. I always thought of mine to consist of bodyguards and advisers + the champion, apothecary and Standard bearer.

-Cuthlas-

Dominus_Serui
30-08-2008, 20:52
Well...when a Mummy Marine and a Daddy Marine love eachother very much (and we get over the debate about female genetically engineered soldiers)...

Sorry couldn't resist it.

robertsjf
30-08-2008, 21:46
Tank crews don't count towards the standing army but towards the support/tech.


Which is true in most instances I've read but I've also read accts where a tac squad would pilot their own rhino....

Minister
31-08-2008, 09:04
Which is certainly not so. Vehicle (and aircraft and starship) crews have always been in addition to the squads in the companies (though troops from the companies, especially the 6th and 7th, are sometimes drawn on to supplement these crews at need).

heinrichvoncarstein
31-08-2008, 09:44
I always thought that the captain picked warriors from his company to form his command squad.


Where do Dark Angel company veteran squads come from. Seems like a lot of extra guys in a "100" man company...

Aliarzathanil: It specifically states in codex da that the da vets are COMPANY VETERANS. So their basically a unit of marines that are vets but are not good enough for the 1st company so they stay in their own company.


The Codex Astartes always said that a chapter consists of 1000 space marines (standing army) not including support, tech and command personnel (page 14-15 index astartes). Its only the standing army as such (ergo the 10 x 100 space marines that count; and that is not even correct, since the scout company (the 10th) varies in size all the time)



To quote myself from another post :D

The command unit doesn't count towards the 100 per battle company. So in effect a chapter consist of wayyyyy more then just a 1000 men. You didn't think that the spacemarines fly (do things fly in space ?...float ?...what ever :D) their own strike cruisers ? They have servitors tech peps and so on for that. Tank crews don't count towards the standing army but towards the support/tech.

I hope they do a more in depth story about the command units in the new SM codex. I always thought of mine to consist of bodyguards and advisers + the champion, apothecary and Standard bearer.

-Cuthlas-



I agree. You've forgotten, though, that there is also the apothecarion, techmarines, librarians, chaplains and the chapter master and his honour guards. So in the third edition codex there's a list of the entire ultramarine chapter (which i think also included 17 apthecaries and 26 techmarines)
So actually a chaper consists of about 1200 marines instead of the presumed 1000

Cuthlas
31-08-2008, 11:01
No I havn't forgotten them, heinrichvoncarstein :P. I just didn't include them (I btw totally agree with you too) If you include all side personal, such as the "to be" techmarines on mars, the master of arms, thunderhawk pilots, tank crews, scouts and so so forth, we are looking at more then 1200. There is gonna be marines training to become chaplains, apothecaries, techmarines, librarians, tank crews, thunderhawk/landspeeder pilots and a whole lot more, that don't factor into the account of a 1000 marines, as such.

just my 2 cent :D

-Cuthlas-

LexxBomb
31-08-2008, 11:37
I think from memory if you actually counted ALL the marines in a chapter of 1000 it would be more like 1060 ... thats almost another whole company plus dont forget that there is no limit on the number of scoutys so if a chapter really wanted it could have 1000 battle brothers plus 1000 scouts

cuthlas land speeder crew and bikers are just assualt squads being equiped with them.

Hrw-Amen
31-08-2008, 11:53
My current marine army has two full battle compaines of 110 marines each. That is 6 tactical, 2 assault and 2 devastator plus a full ten man command squad. I just assumed that the command squad is made up of veterans from that company and that they are back filled as more recruits attain full marine staus.

I always thought of the 1000 man thing as more of a guide, If you have 10 compaines at 100 men plus a 10 man command squad that is 1100 straight away not to mention vehicle crews and other secialists on top.

Cuthlas
31-08-2008, 12:33
I think from memory if you actually counted ALL the marines in a chapter of 1000 it would be more like 1060 ... thats almost another whole company plus dont forget that there is no limit on the number of scoutys so if a chapter really wanted it could have 1000 battle brothers plus 1000 scouts

cuthlas land speeder crew and bikers are just assualt squads being equiped with them.

Yearh...a slip of the ....finger :D....bike an Landspeeder crews are drawn from the assault squads in the company or the 6th company(bikes) or the 7th company (Landspeeders).

and if you strictly count just the 100 men per company + a driver for each rhino
+ Captain,apothecary, chaplain and standard bearer. it would be 10 (rhino drivers) + 4 officers =114 men =at least 1140 men. But then you have techmarines, librarians, the master of the chapter, senior officers, more drivers+gunners for the landraiders, whirlwind, vindicator crews and so on.

so we are calking about at least 1200 men, not taking into account that the scout company has a variable size and all the other things, like no restriction on techmarines and librarians. Command squads and reclusiarcs are not even counted into the number either. So less then 1500 more then 1000...or something like that.

-Cuthlas-

RCgothic
31-08-2008, 13:18
Organisation of a full-strength chapter is as follows as listed in C:SM p 68.

Companies 1-9 have 100 Space marines in line squads, captain, chaplain, apothecary and standard bearer. 104 per company.
Additionally, we may assume Company Champion and 2 Company command veterans to make up command squad numbers. 107.

Companies 2-5, the battle companies, have attatched rhinos, dreadnaughts, bikes and land raiders. (these are not stated drawn from other companies).

A full strength bike squad (from codex SM, not sure what fluff says) is 7 bikers. (5 regular, 2 attack bikers).
I heard someone say 3 dreadnaughts earlier.
8 rhinos and 1 Razorback. (tac, dev and command squads) Crew of 1 SM (according to codex. I think servitors make more sense.)
3 Land Raiders. (Command and assault squads). Crew of 2 SM.
That brings the total for companies 2-5 to 132 per company.

Companies 6 and 7 have no bikes, require 2 extra rhinos and 2 fewer land raiders. 123 per company.
Company 8, ideally, would require 11 land raiders and 11 rhinos. 150 in this company.
9th company only has rhinos and dreadnaughts. 121.
10th company was given in apocalypse reload. 100 scouts, 1 Captain. 0-10 Land Speeder Storms.*(note on this later). Codex SM also says they have an apothecary and chaplain. 123.
The first company is best equipped, requiring 21 land raiders and 11 rhinos, but having no bikes. 163 marines.

Total from all companies: 1181 space marines.
Then you have the chaper master, admin and support staff, (not neccessarily space marines), the Librarians, Tech Marines, Senior Chaplain, Tank crews, thunderhawk crews and land speeder crews. The total's going to be well above 1200.

*note on land speeder storms: A scout company must take 10 man squads. LSS's only have transport capacity 5. I'm assuming combat squadding and half the scouts footslog. If I were organising the scout company I'd have 5 man squads and take 20, but maybe that's just me.

Cuthlas
31-08-2008, 13:54
so we have established the number to be more like 1200-1500.
We did get totally of target of the OP and his answer has already been answered :D

Btw...index astartes says that the 6th and 7th companies are drawn up on to man Landspeeders and Bikes when the 2-5th companies can't man them them self. But that would mean normally they would use more rhinos. I don't think Landraiders are 11 per company its more in the direction of a couple per company. Except for the 1st company (in index astartes the normal companies aren't even earmarked for any ;D, but GW wants to sell more...sooo...)

-Cuthlas-

RCgothic
31-08-2008, 13:58
well, I only said 11 for the 8th company as it's an assault company. Most of the other non-1st company companies would only get a few. It sounds a lot when the chapter is viewed as a whole, but not so bad when each company is off doing its own thing.

Mkstein
31-08-2008, 14:08
I'd have thought 100 marines, including commanders etc... and a scout company! 100 Marines including commanders etc... makes sense to me.

Cuthlas
31-08-2008, 14:20
I know what you mean Mkstein :-)....a lot of stuff sadly doesn't make sense any more. But that is how it is atm.

Leftenant Gashrog
31-08-2008, 14:40
Organisation of a full-strength chapter is as follows as listed in C:SM p 68.

The accuracy of that chart has been called into question, as its almost identical to the similar chart published in Codex: Ultramarines, Codex: Angels of Death, EPIC: Armageddon and Insignium Astartes, except that it replaces almost* all instances of Land Speeder with Land Raider, it has been suggested this was a cut and paste error. (According to all other sources the 1st company is the only company to have it own Land Raiders, all other belong to the armoury).

* with the exception of the 7th companies Land Speeders.. it has also been suggested that the author is an idiot.

The 3rd edition Codex didnt list a generic chart, but did list the entire Ultramarine chapter, the 4th company was listed as being at full strength whilst possessing:
15 Rhinos (it stands to reason there would be some dismounts).
15 Land Speeders (5 vanilla, 5 tornado and 5 typhoon)
25 Bikes
5 Attack Bikes

Although transports Razorbacks are split between the Armour and the HQ, being doled out as necissary.

Savior117
31-08-2008, 22:02
100 Marines x 10 Companies = 1000 Marines
10 Rhino Drivers x 10 Companies = 100 Marines
10 Man Command Squad x 10 Companies = 100 Marines
1 Command Rhino Driver x 10 Companies = 10
1 Company Commander x 10 Companies = 10 Marines
1 Chaplain x 10 Companies = 10 Marines
= 1230 Marines
That's not to mention the Librarium, Techmarines, Administrative Staff, Support Personnel, Razorback/Whirlwind/Vindicator/Predator Crew (2 Per), Land Raider Crew (3 Per(Don't know about FW varients)), Land Speeder Crew (2), Thunderhawk Crew, and Fleet Crew....
With a full strength chapter you're probably looking at 1500-3500 Marines, with the a good deal being vehicle crew, Thunderhawk pilots, or fleet personnel.
The Battle Company GW sells is 116 (117 if you use the kneeling legs in the command squad box) Marines total. The Command Squad + Commander + vehicle crew probably just aren't counted for the purposes of the '1000 marine limit,' as mentioned before.