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Vaktathi
30-08-2008, 03:16
Ok, so spending the last two afternoons going through multiple IA books, several editions worth of codex's, wargear books, and review newer releases like Orks, CSM's, SM's, Eldar, and Daemons, I've come up with the following list.

Mostly its keeping everything pretty much the same, but either reducing cost or giving them extra things for their current cost (such as Doctrines built into the cost of 60pt IG squads) A couple re-jigging of rules and a heavy emphasis on not only vehicles and specialized infantry, but also several Artillery units are included, as is just about every IA vehicle except for Trojan's, Atlases, and most flyers (no Superheavies either).

Be warned, its 45 pages long.

EDIT: See post # 11 for updated Codex

MegaPope
30-08-2008, 05:51
That was a very interesting read. You've laid it out very well, clear and concisely. There's a lot of neat stuff in there - I particularly like the battlefield engineers rule for the Tech-Priests;)

My views on it:

Overall-

-The pointing system you've used for the infantry units seems a little counter-intuitive. I think it would be better to just have the basic points cost of the infantry set lower and simply have the extra upgrades paid for as normal. I can see a lot of people not reading it properly and assuming that they're still paying over the odds for their infantry for no real reason. We all know how hard even the Platoon system can be to grasp for some people;).

Unit by unit-

HQ: Even with the points premium for not having Doctrines, is the HSE HQ squad really worth 10 points more naked than it is now? IMO both the Platoon Drill and Hammer of the Emperor rules should effectively be free, since what they're doing is removing disadvantages rather than adding bonuses. And does he really need that 18" Ld bubble? It's not as if he can shout any louder. Or maybe his squad includes the Regimental Sergeant Major/Really Scary Monster;)? TBH, I'd prefer greater use of the Vox-net to all these Ld bubbles. It just seems more...appropriate. But that's just me.

Veteran upgrade should be 2 or 3 points extra at most. They're not THAT good even at BS4, and you'll still be paying for weapons besides.

Reg. Standard: Wouldn't Stubborn be a better upgrade for this? There's still too much Fearless clogging up the game as it is. On the other hand, Fearless guard will die even more quickly if caught up in HtH, thus clearing firing lanes...

The Powerfist is too expensive, especially for the Junior Officer. In fact, on the subject of the JO, he shouldn't even be in this bit IMO. He's only a Lieutenant. What's he doing commanding a company except in an emergency?

Advisors-

Commissar: nice but still too expensive. He is not worth almost as much as a whole Command Section on his own, even with built-in equipment (these guys really should come with Carapace, RF, Bolt pistol and PW as standard). He really should be 30 points at most, if not 25. I don't really like that showboating execution rule. I'd sooner he was cheaper and just kept my command squads in line.

Also, "It's for your own good" should only apply to Primaris/Sanctioned Psykers. I know it's unlikely, but I'd rather not have him shooting my Inquisitor/Grey Knight hero dead, thanks;).

Priest: nice (especially the option for a mount). I really can't fault him now, especially as he's no longer nailed to a Command Squad (I assume). That and excessive cost were really his only problems. Other wargear options would be nice, though (Rosarius for one - he might not last long otherwise).

Primaris Psyker: wow! Impressive, but aren't you over-egging the pudding a little? His powers are...impressive to say the least. Here's what 'd do:
-Drop Psychic Ward and give him a Hood as normal equipment.
-Instead of Earthsplit and Gaze:

Mental Blast: R24" Assault. Enemy unit suffers D6 S5 AP 3 hits and must taken a Pinning test. If targetting a vehicle roll a D6. On a 1-3 nothing happens. On a 4+ the vehicle suffers an automatic 'Crew Stunned' damage result.

-Divine Cloak: 12" radius is a huge area, especially if only one model in a unit needs to be covered for the whole lot to be affected. Either reduce it to 6" or specify that every member of a unit has to be within 12" of him to benefit.
Night Fight firing alone is enough of a gain.

-Holy Rage: Why not make this a gain of Furious Assault for a turn? That way It could stack wth a Priest...

-Relocation (call this The Gate - it sounds like aTV show title otherwise!) and Guide Machine are good.

And don't put him in a unit with a Commissar...

Sanctioned Psyker: Ah, worth using now. Is actually always a usable psyker.

Elites

Ogryn: Cool, but if they're BS2, that Ripper Gun would be nice at Assault 3 or 4, especially since they stay at 2 attacks. Also, can they buy Carapace Armour?

AdMech combat crew: Superb. Just a few clarifications needed though:
-The way it's written implies that the Techie can repair multiple vehicles in the same turn if you daisy-chain his servitors out and have several tanks in close proximity. Is this the case?
-Battlefield Engineers: I assume all this takes place before the game? And why the Teleport Homers? Your enemy could end up using those things against you...
-A reroll on the repairs is probably bonus enough, especially if the above is correct.

Ratlings:
Sniper units are now inherently nasty anyway. Oh for some better figures...

Field Arty: Good good. Never liked the Immobile rule myself (the 'buy Centaur models from us or else!" rule) so the ability to make normal (walking) moves for Artillery without the tractors would be nice.

Stormies: Very nice, but wouldn't Iron Discipline make a better built-in rule for these guys? The image of them determined to complete their mission down to the last man is more fitting IMO than something that only really kicks in in combat, when they're likely doomed anyway.

Troops:

Platoon: there's nothing inherently amiss with your platoons apart from the odd pointing principle which I aleady mentioned, although some means of providing an integrated Platoon (employing both infantry and special/heavy squads) would be nice instead of dividing them and clogging up the HS section. Or perhaps Heavy/Support Platoons should be available as Troops on a one for two basis with regular Platoons?
Your Doctrine upgrades are nice, as is the Veteran squad option.

Conscripts: Fair enough, although...meltaguns?

Chimera: nice, especially the expendable rule: "ok, there are better things out there...but look how MANY we have, comrade!"

Valkyrie: Sweet. Cost cut is justified thanks to loss of actual aircraft rules in most games.

Centaur: Cool. I wish they'd make these in plastic, though you can make some nice conversions with the old Ork Trukk model.

Fast Attack-

Rough Riders: Nice, but since you've already got an option for bikes in there (and better ones at that) I'd prefer the 'Xeno-beast mount' upgrade for these guys - almost everyone would want them as lancers anyway.

Sentinels: Cool, but should probably also have the Expendable rule.

Attack Bikes: one model with a GL: mediocre. TEN models with GLs: LOL! now you're talking! An almost perfect rapid fire support unit for Rough riders. I like.
But again, why the Teleport Homers?

Hellhound: see my comments on tanks below.

Heavy Support:

Rapier: Flat out, these cannot compete with the other options in HS. Stick them in Elites with the other field guns. To make it truly a Rapier, have as a Heavy D3 Lascannon. Also, give it the 'Slow and Purposeful' rule.

Heavy Platoon: see above

Tanks and artillery in general (including the Hellhound): All good IMO. Despite what others say, I can still see a S5 Defensive weapons rule coming in for them.

Static Artillery: still situational, but overall a nice representation for hard-to-use models.

A big well done to you, my friend. I'm sorry if I sounded over-critical in places, but I really do like the vast majority of your work.

FunkyRatDemon
30-08-2008, 06:26
Hey pal..hope I don't have to face this at Borderlands...

My thoughts:
Not a fan of the "hammer of the emperor'' rule, the idea of 1/2 kill pts seems like it should be tweaked. A simplier way may just make it that the command platton and the first 2 squads (marked) count as 1 kill pt, then every after count as 1
Defensive grenades should likely be 5pts per squad, after all for a 10man squad 10more pts for striking at I3 or a S4 on rear armour seems to pricey. Krak however seem appropriate
I like how the Command Leadership differs in the 'greatness' of theor ;eader, but a -2 modifer may be rather high...but then again regouping w/ 2men left to hold an objective does seem rather ridiculous!
Not sure about the pts value for Power Weapons/Fists. 20pts for a S6 I1 still seems iffy to me. (and am used to seeing 'useless' 5pts power weapons)
Regimental Standard Bearer seems rediculous for its pts cost, why not count negative modifers instead?
Authority of the Commissariat seems rather abusable, but super fluffy. Auto-regroups seems to good, I'd prefer to see a modifier
Rightous Fury should be 'gains prefered enemy on the turn in which they charge an enemy unit'
Earthsplit seems rather 'abusive', I'd rather see D3 + the models under the template (or else to many complaints from MEQs)
Gaze of the Emperor needs to be changed to 'take a Ld test if they take any casualties", and a 4+ seems to good, a 5+ is about right for shaken though
Divine Cloak is ok, but i'd prefer to see an 'either', not both effects
Holy Rage, why not give them Furious Charge and Preferred Enemy instead?
Guide Machine seems a little to powerfull for my tastes, a +1BS and a scatter reroll seems more balanced
Pshchic Ward should be on a 4+, not a 3+...even then a 5+ if they are more 'distant'
for the Mechanicus Combat Crew, I assume only 1 Plasma Cannon...right?
I like the way Stormtroopers are listed (snipers! seriously!)
Light Infantry seems a bit to good, loser the stuff about Snipers (too 'Halo-esque' for me) and they Run-reroll
"veterans' needs to be reworded so that if 1 does, the enitre squad must
You made Snetinels usefull!!! Thank you!
Well done on the Rough Riders
Imperial Guard Attack Bikers seem iffy to me, not fluff wise, but gaming wise
Leman Russ w/ Battle Cannon seem to cheap for me...
Crusher option is rather awesome though

Vaktathi
30-08-2008, 07:20
That was a very interesting read. You've laid it out very well, clear and concisely. There's a lot of neat stuff in there - I was actually rather shocked when I finished and realized it was 45 pages.


I particularly like the battlefield engineers rule for the Tech-Priests;) I figured they could use something other than just vehicle repair to make them worthwhile and I love the idea of a sort of combat engineering team.



-The pointing system you've used for the infantry units seems a little counter-intuitive. I think it would be better to just have the basic points cost of the infantry set lower and simply have the extra upgrades paid for as normal. I can see a lot of people not reading it properly and assuming that they're still paying over the odds for their infantry for no real reason. We all know how hard even the Platoon system can be to grasp for some people;). Good point, I was kinda trying to make them roughly still the same points cost but building the doctrines as unit options into the cost, but still wanting to keep the option for barebones squads there, when I get a chance I'll got go back and change that.




HQ: Even with the points premium for not having Doctrines, is the HSE HQ squad really worth 10 points more naked than it is now? IMO both the Platoon Drill and Hammer of the Emperor rules should effectively be free, since what they're doing is removing disadvantages rather than adding bonuses. And does he really need that 18" Ld bubble? It's not as if he can shout any louder. Mmm, good point, I was kinda thinking the expanded Ld bubble would make the HSO much more desireable, however looking back on it I think I'd rather he just be cheaper instead or include another ability


Or maybe his squad includes the Regimental Sergeant Major/Really Scary Monster? TBH, I'd prefer greater use of the Vox-net to all these Ld bubbles. It just seems more...appropriate. But that's just me. good point.



Veteran upgrade should be 2 or 3 points extra at most. They're not THAT good even at BS4, and you'll still be paying for weapons besides. they should have been a 3pt upgrade, I made them 4 originally because they also had higher init and WS, but I got rid of that and forgot to downgrade their cost.




Reg. Standard: Wouldn't Stubborn be a better upgrade for this? There's still too much Fearless clogging up the game as it is. On the other hand, Fearless guard will die even more quickly if caught up in HtH, thus clearing firing lanes... I was thinking mostly about the second half of that statment, and the fact that its ability can be transferred through the Vox Network (at least the way I've written it), although I do think Stubborn would be better, I'll change that.




The Powerfist is too expensive, especially for the Junior Officer. I agree, its mostly a placeholder value, I'm not quite sure what IG powerfists should be costed at.


In fact, on the subject of the JO, he shouldn't even be in this bit IMO. He's only a Lieutenant. What's he doing commanding a company except in an emergency? Some people use JO's as their HQ platoon, I do, and I've seen several others, even without Honorifica's, usually for mechanized armies I've seen (where the number of infantry may be half or less of most IG armies).




Commissar: nice but still too expensive. He is not worth almost as much as a whole Command Section on his own, even with built-in equipment (these guys really should come with Carapace, RF, Bolt pistol and PW as standard). He really should be 30 points at most, if not 25. I don't really like that showboating execution rule. I'd sooner he was cheaper and just kept my command squads in line. Well, for the Execution rule I was thinking more of whats been described in BL books, where they liberally start shooting often, however looking back on it you may be right that he's still a bit too expensive, I'll drop him to 30, and toss in some wargear when I update it.



Also, "It's for your own good" should only apply to Primaris/Sanctioned Psykers. I know it's unlikely, but I'd rather not have him shooting my Inquisitor/Grey Knight hero dead, thanks Mmm true.



Priest: nice (especially the option for a mount). I really can't fault him now, especially as he's no longer nailed to a Command Squad (I assume). the advisors should all be IC's, but I think I forgot to explicitley write that in their descriptions, another thing I need to fix, as well as a limit on numbers (tossing out 30 of the Psykers would be bad). I figured that making him a useful attachment to both Ogryns and RR's would be in order.


That and excessive cost were really his only problems. Other wargear options would be nice, though (Rosarius for one - he might not last long otherwise). Good point, I'll toss that in.



Primaris Psyker: wow! Impressive, but aren't you over-egging the pudding a little? His powers are...impressive to say the least. I was really trying to make them more similar to their 2nd edition incarnation, where they were incredible psychic support, while keeping them relatively fragile.


Here's what 'd do:
-Drop Psychic Ward and give him a Hood as normal equipment.
-Instead of Earthsplit and Gaze:

Mental Blast: R24" Assault. Enemy unit suffers D6 S5 AP 3 hits and must taken a Pinning test. If targetting a vehicle roll a D6. On a 1-3 nothing happens. On a 4+ the vehicle suffers an automatic 'Crew Stunned' damage result. Good idea, looking back they are similar enough to simply be integrated.



-Divine Cloak: 12" radius is a huge area, especially if only one model in a unit needs to be covered for the whole lot to be affected. Either reduce it to 6" or specify that every member of a unit has to be within 12" of him to benefit.
Night Fight firing alone is enough of a gain. Hrm, you may be right, let me look it over again and possibly re-work the mechanic.



-Holy Rage: Why not make this a gain of Furious Assault for a turn? That way It could stack wth a Priest... My thinking was mainly because furious charge on most IG units wouldn't be worth it that much, with the exception of RR's and Ogryns, and it only works when charging, whereas this ability they could use if stuck in and not immediately wiped. I'll probably just make it re-rolls wounds and adds +1 WS



-Relocation (call this The Gate - it sounds like aTV show title otherwise!) and Guide Machine are good. Sounds good.



And don't put him in a unit with a Commissar... most definitely not.



Sanctioned Psyker: Ah, worth using now. Is actually always a usable psyker. I figured it only needed a bit of tweaking, its mainly just re-works of its current abilities.

Elites



Ogryn: Cool, but if they're BS2, that Ripper Gun would be nice at Assault 3 or 4, especially since they stay at 2 attacks. Also, can they buy Carapace Armour? I figured for the trade off for T5 and S6 base I should lower their BS a bit, especially since it won't hurt too much given their short range and CC emphasis.



AdMech combat crew: Superb. Just a few clarifications needed though:
-The way it's written implies that the Techie can repair multiple vehicles in the same turn if you daisy-chain his servitors out and have several tanks in close proximity. Is this the case? For now yes, although I'd like to actually playtest it, its also highly situational.



-Battlefield Engineers: I assume all this takes place before the game? Yes, I need to specify that, good catch


And why the Teleport Homers? Drop Troops! :D

Your enemy could end up using those things against you... I'll have to specify them further in that case.



-A reroll on the repairs is probably bonus enough, especially if the above is correct.Mm...true, I'll go back and change that.



Ratlings:
Sniper units are now inherently nasty anyway. Oh for some better figures... Indeed, a decent Ratling model might even go further towards people taking them than making their rules better.



Field Arty: Good good. Never liked the Immobile rule myself (the 'buy Centaur models from us or else!" rule) so the ability to make normal (walking) moves for Artillery without the tractors would be nice. Well, for the most part I was just copying the IA rules, and making them mobile would have to increase their cost, about how much do you think I should boost them?



Stormies: Very nice, but wouldn't Iron Discipline make a better built-in rule for these guys? The image of them determined to complete their mission down to the last man is more fitting IMO than something that only really kicks in in combat, when they're likely doomed anyway. Thats true, I think I'll do that.




Platoon: there's nothing inherently amiss with your platoons apart from the odd pointing principle which I aleady mentioned, although some means of providing an integrated Platoon (employing both infantry and special/heavy squads) would be nice instead of dividing them and clogging up the HS section. The one issue I have with heavy weapons squads in Troops platoons is the potential to field very serious fire support without fielding any HS at all.



Or perhaps Heavy/Support Platoons should be available as Troops on a one for two basis with regular Platoons? That could work, I'll jinx it up and see how it looks.


Your Doctrine upgrades are nice I tried to make most of the combinations taken now still available, especially the most common ones taken together.


as is the Veteran squad option. I figured they were better off as an upgrade rather than as a seperate unit.



Conscripts: Fair enough, although...meltaguns? For some reason I thought they already could get them, I guess not, it doesn't really make sense anyway.


Chimera: nice, especially the expendable rule: "ok, there are better things out there...but look how MANY we have, comrade!" exactly! I was trying to figure out ways to reduce the Kill Point count to an acceptable level and figured that Regimental APC # 98958048594 wasn't worth too much in the large scheme of things.



Valkyrie: Sweet. Cost cut is justified thanks to loss of actual aircraft rules in most games. Yeah, after just making it a fast skimmer, I realized that it was *very* expensive and *very* vulnerable, so I cut the cost and gave it that "aircraft" rule, then did some mathhammer and adjusted the cost again, I'm hoping I got it about right.



Centaur: Cool. I wish they'd make these in plastic, though you can make some nice conversions with the old Ork Trukk model. Indeed, they are awesome looking models, but far too $$$. Also they seemed about 2x to much to me in terms of points cost in IA:5, especially given the nerf in speed for non-skimmer Fast vehicles with 5th ed.



Rough Riders: Nice, but since you've already got an option for bikes in there (and better ones at that) I'd prefer the 'Xeno-beast mount' upgrade for these guys - almost everyone would want them as lancers anyway. What exactly was the "Xeno-mount" thing? I think that is one of the very few pieces of IG fluff/rules that I don't have available to me as it was a WD thing IIRC.



Sentinels: Cool, but should probably also have the Expendable rule. Indeed, especially for AV10 Squadron vehicles.



Attack Bikes: one model with a GL: mediocre. TEN models with GLs: LOL! now you're talking! An almost perfect rapid fire support unit for Rough riders. I like.
But again, why the Teleport Homers? I figured that bikes with tons of Gl's would be a fun idea. The Teleport Homers again was there for Drop Troop armies if they so wished.



Heavy Support:



Rapier: Flat out, these cannot compete with the other options in HS. Stick them in Elites with the other field guns. To make it truly a Rapier, have as a Heavy D3 Lascannon. Also, give it the 'Slow and Purposeful' rule. I guess Elites would suit them better. for some reason I just used the 2nd ed movement rules for it, S&P does seem a better fit.




Tanks and artillery in general (including the Hellhound): All good IMO. Despite what others say, I can still see a S5 Defensive weapons rule coming in for them. My thoughts exactly



Static Artillery: still situational, but overall a nice representation for hard-to-use models. I figured since they had models they should get rules



A big well done to you, my friend. I'm sorry if I sounded over-critical in places this is exactly the kind of feedback I'm looking for :D









Hey pal..hope I don't have to face this at Borderlands... haha, its still got a good deal of revising and editing to do.



My thoughts:
Not a fan of the "hammer of the emperor'' rule, the idea of 1/2 kill pts seems like it should be tweaked. A simplier way may just make it that the command platton and the first 2 squads (marked) count as 1 kill pt, then every after count as 1 I agree that 1/2 kill points is odd, but the problem is the very nature of the army forces it to have far more kill points than the vast majority of its opponents. The problem with almost everything I work through is that it tends to favor very small or very large platoons, so I figured just making each squad half a KP worked best.



Defensive grenades should likely be 5pts per squad, after all for a 10man squad 10more pts for striking at I3 or a S4 on rear armour seems to pricey. Defenive grenades are the ones that negate an opponents charging bonus, which helps a lot more. Frag is thrown in on a couple units as a freebie where they may at some point be assault Tau, otherwise you are right that Frags are totally useless.


Krak however seem appropriate I thought so too, 2pts seemed a bit much.



I like how the Command Leadership differs in the 'greatness' of theor ;eader, but a -2 modifer may be rather high...but then again regouping w/ 2men left to hold an objective does seem rather ridiculous! my thoughts exactly



Not sure about the pts value for Power Weapons/Fists. 20pts for a S6 I1 still seems iffy to me. (and am used to seeing 'useless' 5pts power weapons) Yeah, the PF cost is a placeholder, I'm still trying to figure out how much they should cost. 20 is too much, 10 seems to little, but 15 doesn't sound right either...gaahhh!



Regimental Standard Bearer seems rediculous for its pts cost, why not count negative modifers instead? I think I'm just going to change it to Stubborn



Authority of the Commissariat seems rather abusable, but super fluffy. it'll make sure that units don't break, but it'll also remove lots of models, potentially expensive ones. It's something that does need some testing, it may turn out to be super gross, it may turn out to be not so useful



Rightous Fury should be 'gains prefered enemy on the turn in which they charge an enemy unit' mmm maybe, but it also has severe restrictions on what it will work on.



Earthsplit seems rather 'abusive', I'd rather see D3 + the models under the template (or else to many complaints from MEQs) Actually doing the mathhammer on it wasn't too bad (on average 2.66 dead MEQ's assuming 4 models hit by the template), but its getting changed to what MegaPope suggested basically



Gaze of the Emperor needs to be changed to 'take a Ld test if they take any casualties", and a 4+ seems to good, a 5+ is about right for shaken though
Divine Cloak is ok, but i'd prefer to see an 'either', not both effects this is getting merged with the replacement for the above ability.



Holy Rage, why not give them Furious Charge and Preferred Enemy instead? I'll probably just make it re-rolls wounds and adds +1 WS



Guide Machine seems a little to powerfull for my tastes, a +1BS and a scatter reroll seems more balanced Its essentially what Guide is right now, except only useable on vehicles. Some playtesting is probably needed though.



Pshchic Ward should be on a 4+, not a 3+...even then a 5+ if they are more 'distant' basically, given that it has to be on a unit fairly close, and that it only applies to offensive powers (it would affect Doom, but not Guide for instance) I don't think its too bad, but I think I may reduce its radius to 12" or just give it a psychic hood.



for the Mechanicus Combat Crew, I assume only 1 Plasma Cannon...right? No limit on plasma cannons, mainly because the units themselves are really fragile and they make the unit very expensive, at least thats my current thinking.



Light Infantry seems a bit to good, loser the stuff about Snipers (too 'Halo-esque' for me) and they Run-reroll I think I'm going to keep the Snipers thing, but reduce it to only targets within 24" (sort of more like designated marksmen rather than true snipers) but lose the Run re-roll.


"veterans' needs to be reworded so that if 1 does, the enitre squad must Currently, Veterans is either a one-per-platoon upgrade to replace the existing Veterans unit, representing that some units scattered through the company have more experience and scavenged gear than others.



You made Snetinels usefull!!! Thank you! I figured they were simply far too expensive in their current state.


Well done on the Rough Riders Thanks, in all honesty I wasn't 100% what really needed to be done with them I'm hoping this makes them a much better unit all around.


Imperial Guard Attack Bikers seem iffy to me, not fluff wise, but gaming wise How so?



Leman Russ w/ Battle Cannon seem to cheap for me... Base cost is cheap, but after factoring in the mandatory hull weapon its only 10pts cheaper than it is currently.


Crusher option is rather awesome though After I first saw the Deffrolla, I knew that something like that, albeit not quite as awesome, would be great for IG tanks.





EDIT: Also, I forgot, the chimera, hellhound, mobile artillery, leman russ, and self propelled gun should all have Smoke Launcher and Spotlights, I forgot to add that in (since it looks like everyones getting those for free now in the newer books, at least the Imperial and Chaos armies)

SaGa Jr
30-08-2008, 09:18
Vaktathi:
The Xeno Mounts doctrine was created by Pete Haines. You found it here: http://uk.games-workshop.com/warhammer40000/creature-feature/9/

I think the teleport homer is too advanced and too rare for the guard. Use another rule/equipment to support the drop troops. Something simple, not so advanced, reliable equipment like flares, radio communications (a good reason for the vox system). When the arriving unit (with vox) is within 6" of another vox wielding unit, they got a simple re-roll on the scatter dice and/or the distance. Maybe they roll only 1 dice.

Vaktathi
31-08-2008, 08:27
Update:

Changed some things based on above feedback, added in the Salamander and Hydra flak tank (both of which are in FA, but may be taken as Elites if not taken as FA) added in a good number of vehicle options and changed a couple, changed some wargear (made teleport homers "Vox Transceivers" with their own rules, added the teleport homer ability to Vox Casters) added a 0-1 "Tank Ace" upgrade that gives one Leman Russ BS4, Crush and Grind (defensive CC ability) and the ability to take a 0-1 Leman Russ tank Squadron (which must include the Tank Ace) and fiddled with a couple doctrines and rules, Die Hards and Command Leadership among them.

Octavius_Maximus
31-08-2008, 11:51
Hey Vaktathi, ive got a few suggestions, from my own rules ive been thinking about:

1. Change Vox Casters to work like Master Voxes now, and make Master Voxes able to call in Artillery strikes, available to all Command squads

2. Add a Heavy Flamer as a Heavy Weapons option

3. I'd drop the range of the Commissars abilities to make players take more than 1.

4. I'd give the Priest Counter Charge rather than rerolls to hit, makes him more useful for all squads in the army.

5. Allow the Bone Ead to take a powerfist

6. The Minefield should use the same rules as Apoc: Both Dangerous and Difficult terrain

7. Could you make Ratlings into real snipers? Please? with Toughness and S3?

8. The Heavy Mortar doesnt have its special Shells, also, make Artillery able to split into seperate units.

9. please add heavy flamers as options to squads without needing Doctrines!!

10. Allow Conscripts to use Demo Charges in Combat to make them a counter Charge unit.

11. Make the Hydras weapon thus:


Hydra Flak Cannons
Range: 12-72" S7 Ap4 Heavy 8, Twin Linked

Yes, increase its points cost...but make it able to do real damage.

12. Sentinels should be able to be taken in squads of 1-5, Make them start with a Twin Linked Heavy Stubber and able to buy a second one if it doesnt upgrade it to a heavy weapon.

13. Sentinels need Rocket Pod and Missile Launcher options

14. Why does the Vanquisher need to take a Lascannon?

15. I would make Artillery emplacements part of Heavy Weapons Platoons.

16. Heavy Weapons squads should be called Fire Support Squads and start with 3 Heavy stubbers.

17. Conqueror cannon is a blast weapon, no?

18. Demolition charges are supposed to be AP2

19. Its Executioner, not Executor :P

20. Add the Bombard as a Heavy Support choice. 7" blast rocks.


Alot of good ideas, i'd like to give you more from my own ideas, but Latin assignment beckons for now.

Vaktathi
01-09-2008, 08:15
1. Change Vox Casters to work like Master Voxes now, and make Master Voxes able to call in Artillery strikes, available to all Command squads I was thinking about that, especially after re-reading the 2nd ed codex, but I'd like to keep the Vox network cost down and really need to think about how such would be implemented, I'm going to try to get to it, but I don't know if I'll come up with something that keeps the cost of Vox's down and isn't hideously imbalanced.



2. Add a Heavy Flamer as a Heavy Weapons option Done.



3. I'd drop the range of the Commissars abilities to make players take more than 1. I tweaked it a bit. I think mainly because of his CC value and backup leadership ability you'd see two as often as one, put one on each side of the field in your gunline and you've got Ld covered!



4. I'd give the Priest Counter Charge rather than rerolls to hit, makes him more useful for all squads in the army. I gave it to him in addition to the other, but he's mainly there for RR's and Ogryn's. Even with Counter Attack and re-rolls, he's not going to save an Infantry Squad that gets stuck in with a Space Marine or Dire Avenger squad.



5. Allow the Bone Ead to take a powerfist While it would be a cool option, they are already wounding most models on 2's, S10 powerfists seem a bit OP for IG units, and it doesn't seem very likely that there would be powerfists available (and in the right size) for a dingbat Ogryn when the Lieutenant in Platoon 2 from Noble House #8928938928 doesn't get one.



6. The Minefield should use the same rules as Apoc: Both Dangerous and Difficult terrain I was using the rules from the Castellan missiles and the 4th ed rulebook, but I'll look at changing it possibly, to see which one is more to my liking.



7. Could you make Ratlings into real snipers? Please? with Toughness and S3? Well, given that they are essentially 3pts each (after factoring in the 5pt sniper rifle) I don't think they are too bad off, and Sniper Rifles are available in large quantities through infantry, command and Special Weapon (now available both in Command and Heavy platoons)



8. The Heavy Mortar doesnt have its special Shells I'm going to add those later to the Vehicle Armory for Heavy Mortars, Medusa's and Earthshakers, I just haven't gotten around to recosting them yet (and lets be honest, Inferno shells are a bit disgusting right now :D)


also, make Artillery able to split into seperate units. I thought they were already treated as seperate units if not explicitley given the Squadron rule? maybe I'm wrong, I'll go look it up, if not though, it may get messy with KP's involving artillery units :cries: (dear god how I *********** *HATE* Kill Points)



9. please add heavy flamers as options to squads without needing Doctrines!! Done.



10. Allow Conscripts to use Demo Charges in Combat to make them a counter Charge unit. Not quite so sure this is necessary or warranted, especially given that Conscripts aren't so much a counter-charge unit as a tarpit, however I am looking at trying to integrate an Explosive Collars option, not quite sure where I want to go with it yet.



11. Make the Hydras weapon thus:
Not sure why it needs that, after reducing its cost to 125pts, I think its already pretty beastly for what it can do. two TL autocannons and a heavy bolter isn't anything to sneeze at.




12. Sentinels should be able to be taken in squads of 1-5 done


Make them start with a Twin Linked Heavy Stubber and able to buy a second one if it doesnt upgrade it to a heavy weapon. I was trying to keep the options to what actually has models, and Heavy Stubbers really don't seem too "Sentinel-y" to me.



13. Sentinels need Rocket Pod and Missile Launcher optionsDone.



14. Why does the Vanquisher need to take a Lascannon? Its a tank hunter, and I feel it needs a bit more minimum cost than the turret weapon with a heavy bolter, but also a backup weapon, thus mandating the Lascannon. If its felt that this is a bad idea, I'll remove the restriction.




16. Heavy Weapons squads should be called Fire Support Squads and start with 3 Heavy stubbers. I don't see why they need to "start" with a weapon, they get the option for TL heavy stubbers (which BTW, are dual profile Assault 3 18"/Heavy 3 36" :D) however.



17. Conqueror cannon is a blast weapon, no?

18. Demolition charges are supposed to be AP2

19. Its Executioner, not Executor :P
Fixed. (apparently I made the vanquisher cannon Ap2 instead of the Demo Charge ap2 when I looked at that earlier, it's also been reduced back to AP3)



20. Add the Bombard as a Heavy Support choice. 7" blast rocks. As much as I'd like to, I'd have too much trouble trying to cost that correctly, and there isn't an actual 7" blast template (unlike the 5" and 10" templates) which makes them very awkward. For right now I don't think I'll include them, although I've been thinking about them and may do so in the near future, same thing with the Manticore.



Alot of good ideas, i'd like to give you more from my own ideas, but Latin assignment beckons for now. Please feel free, you've given me some good ones.





Here's the next update! too many minute changes to remember, so if you actually care, read it again!




Once I get it to where I'm satisfied with it, I'd actually like to set it up in a nice PDF, print it out and professionally bind it, and send it to JJ and Cruddace. They'll probably immediately toss it :p but on the slim chance they actually open it, I'm hoping they'll take some inspiration.

Col.Gravis
01-09-2008, 10:37
As much as I'd like to, I'd have too much trouble trying to cost that correctly, and there isn't an actual 7" blast template (unlike the 5" and 10" templates) which makes them very awkward. For right now I don't think I'll include them, although I've been thinking about them and may do so in the near future, same thing with the Manticore.


It's on the 10" template.

Octavius_Maximus
02-09-2008, 06:46
I was thinking about that, especially after re-reading the 2nd ed codex, but I'd like to keep the Vox network cost down and really need to think about how such would be implemented, I'm going to try to get to it, but I don't know if I'll come up with something that keeps the cost of Vox's down and isn't hideously imbalanced.

Hmm, its not really too imbalanced.

Normal Vox Casters should be 5 points each and can be used multiple times, its not a huge thing.

Master Voxes should give a strike on a successful Ld test of the Officer, if its passed it happens within 18". Perhaps a few different strikes, such as Melta strikes and Frag strikes, etc.



While it would be a cool option, they are already wounding most models on 2's, S10 powerfists seem a bit OP for IG units, and it doesn't seem very likely that there would be powerfists available (and in the right size) for a dingbat Ogryn when the Lieutenant in Platoon 2 from Noble House #8928938928 doesn't get one.

Doesnt need to be a powerfist, it could be a crusher of some kind.



I was using the rules from the Castellan missiles and the 4th ed rulebook, but I'll look at changing it possibly, to see which one is more to my liking.
i think the Apoc Rules are better, slows the enemy down AND does damage.



I'm going to add those later to the Vehicle Armory for Heavy Mortars, Medusa's and Earthshakers, I just haven't gotten around to recosting them yet (and lets be honest, Inferno shells are a bit disgusting right now )

My 3 Inferno Shells disagree. I'd make Inferno Shells force both a pinning check and a Ld check at -2.


Not quite so sure this is necessary or warranted, especially given that Conscripts aren't so much a counter-charge unit as a tarpit, however I am looking at trying to integrate an Explosive Collars option, not quite sure where I want to go with it yet.

I just think it'd be a cool unit. All of them run into combat with a nasty unit then *BOOM* both units disappear.



Not sure why it needs that, after reducing its cost to 125pts, I think its already pretty beastly for what it can do. two TL autocannons and a heavy bolter isn't anything to sneeze at.

Hmmm, i prefer big big nasty guns, it seems :P

Just consider it, who would take one of these instead of, say, a Hellhound? Or a unit of Ogryns? Or rough riders.

Also, make the Big cannons a single statline, otherwise if you move you can only fire 2 which seems weird.


I was trying to keep the options to what actually has models, and Heavy Stubbers really don't seem too "Sentinel-y" to me.

How not?

Also, i think More Heavy Stubbers are needed in the guard. They are a cool weapon.


Sentinel Squadron:

Name Ws Bs S In Front Side Rear At
Sentinel 3 3 6 3 10 10 10 2
Unit: 1-5 Sentinels
Weapon- Twin linked Heavy Stubber
Points: 20

Come with a searchlight.

Options:

Any Sentinel may upgrade its Twin Linked Heavy Stubber to one of the following weapons:

Heavy Bolter- 0
Heavy Flamer- 0
Quad Linked Heavy Stubber- 5
Autocannon- 5
Missile Launcher- 5
Multimelta- 10
Lascannon- 15
Rocket Pod- 15

Special Rules:

Scout

Independent Formation:

At Deployment a Sentinel Squadron may choose to assume Independent formation, becoming from that point on 2 separate units. The numbers in both units must remain as equal as possible, though.




Its a tank hunter, and I feel it needs a bit more minimum cost than the turret weapon with a heavy bolter, but also a backup weapon, thus mandating the Lascannon. If its felt that this is a bad idea, I'll remove the restriction.

My Vanquishers with 3x Heavy bolters would be annoyed at this :P



I don't see why they need to "start" with a weapon, they get the option for TL heavy stubbers (which BTW, are dual profile Assault 3 18"/Heavy 3 36" ) however.


I think they should keep their Heavy Profile alone...in my ideas ive made Stormies able to move and fire with them, and most of the others are on Vehicles.

Heavy Weapons teams should probably have Heavy Stubbers to start with.

I want to make guard more reliant on their own weapons, rather than ones they share with other armies.


As much as I'd like to, I'd have too much trouble trying to cost that correctly, and there isn't an actual 7" blast template (unlike the 5" and 10" templates) which makes them very awkward. For right now I don't think I'll include them, although I've been thinking about them and may do so in the near future, same thing with the Manticore.


Hell, in the rules ive done, ive added the Manticore for 7" blast and the Bombard for 10" blast (shoots once every 2 turns). I think making them the only army who uses those size blasts in 40k really solidifies the Guard as a seperate entity. The army with the real guns.


Please feel free, you've given me some good ones.


Thank you

heres some more:

Also, feel free to look into my thread in rules development. Take any rules which you like

Vaktathi
05-09-2008, 23:27
allrighty, here's the new list, there's a fair number of new changes.

Now I put in a change for IG tanks that I'm iffy on, but also am thinking it may (or may not be) appropriate given that IG tanks count S5 weapons as defensive.
IG tanks with the Heavy Platform rule only can move 5"/10", but can fire S5 weapons as defensive. I would like feedback on this. On one hand it does make IG tanks a bit slower (which according to fluff they are *very* slow, especially the Russ) but it makes them much more effective on the move as well and gives some justification for IG tanks moving and firing multiple S5 weapons when other, arguably more advanced vehicles cannot. Feedback on this would be appreciated.

Also a couple changes to other units:
Ogryn Ripper guns now give Frag Grenades and downgrade opponents Initiative by 1 on the turn they charge

Rapier now downgrades cover saves by 1, but has been increased in cost.

Hellhounds/Salamanders/Hydras have been consolidated into a single "Medium tank" category under FA. If none are taken as FA, they may be taken as Elites instead.

Xeno Riders are in (dunno if that was in the last update)

Sentinels now have all IA armaments, and a DCCW option (power lifter)

Stormtroopers may not Outflank if taken as Troops.


probably a few other changes I forgot.

Torga_DW
06-09-2008, 06:29
heya, just read your codex, here are some thoughts off the top of my head:

i've said it before and i'll say it again, ogryns should not be T5. They're not phsyically advanced or engineered, they're just big. The idea that a lascannon or a krak missile can't insta kill whats essentially a big human is just wrong, wrong wrong wrong.

servitors shouldn't be able to make repairs without a techpriest guiding them. Lobotomy patients just tend to stand there and drool without guidance. Also not sure about the ability to take more technical servitors, it makes the 4 gun servitors a no-brainer, yet the squad is still able to cover the repairs side of things.

I would make hellguns assault 2, assault 3 just seems a little overpowered to me. It says they can't deepstrike if they take a transport, can they infiltrate with one?

The cost of a human has gone down to 4 points? I'm not sure about this.

Also, you're letting veteran sergeants access to power weapons now? I thought they were meant to be officer weapons only, fluffwise at least.

Light infantry squads can move and shoot sniper rifles if the target is within 24"? I'm not sure i like that.

I like the way you did veterans. Really cool.

I'd change the wording on the valkyrie to vehicle wrecked and vehicle explodes, as it appears in the v5 codex. But then i'd consider automatically killing the passengers if the thing goes boom. Skimmers don't fly that high, and they still fall hard.

Where are the rough riders holding these additional lances? Afaik lances are fairly unwieldy by themselves, but they're carrying enough spare lances to last an entire battle?

I would actually consider fielding sentinels now.

I heard rumours about leman russes being able to come in squadrons, have you considered something along these lines?

As i finish up, i'm noticing there were a lot of small-manned automatic weapon platforms, like the tarantula, etc. Maybe they should be limited by like how many tech priests you take? Otherwise it seems more of an admech thing than a guard thing.

Could use a bit more formatting to pretty it up, but other than that an interesting read.

Vaktathi
06-09-2008, 07:08
heya, just read your codex, here are some thoughts off the top of my head: sweet!



i've said it before and i'll say it again, ogryns should not be T5. They're not phsyically advanced or engineered, they're just big. The idea that a lascannon or a krak missile can't insta kill whats essentially a big human is just wrong, wrong wrong wrong. The problem is currently that they just don't last long enough do really put any hurt on against anything with a powerfist or S8, and their ability to take fire is rather poor. Any possible alternate suggestions?



servitors shouldn't be able to make repairs without a techpriest guiding them. Lobotomy patients just tend to stand there and drool without guidance. True, but I really to come up with a way that the unit isn't going to become useless as a repair base if the Techpriest is killed given the new wound allocation rules, rather than the entire unit just becoming useless because one model died.


Also not sure about the ability to take more technical servitors, it makes the 4 gun servitors a no-brainer, yet the squad is still able to cover the repairs side of things. Mmm good point, however that would make it a rather expensive unit (180pts for 6 tech servitors, 4 HB servitors, and a techpriest)

I think I may bump the cost on the weapons and reduce the total amount of servitors able to be taken by the unit to 8 total.



I would make hellguns assault 2, assault 3 just seems a little overpowered to me. The Assault 3 gives them an identical average wound output to an S4 2 shot weapon (which is about what they need if they are going to really differentiate themselves from Carapace guardsmen really) against T4 targets, but still keeps the Hellgun basically a souped up Lasgun. I could just make it S4 assault 2, but then it allows them to threaten light vehicles which I don't think it should do personally.


It says they can't deepstrike if they take a transport, can they infiltrate with one? They can, their transport cannot.



The cost of a human has gone down to 4 points? I'm not sure about this. A barebones guardsmen compared to the current Ork Boy, Dire Avenger, SM/CSM is worth about 4pts after doing some math to determine average likely wounds suffered/inflicted. I know it seems low, but in light of the basic CSM, Ork Boy, and Dire Avenger, its hard to cost them low *enough*. Everyone else's basic troops are just so much better for the cost. At 5 or 6pts, Shoota Boyz out-fight *and* outshoot them on a point for point basis.



Also, you're letting veteran sergeants access to power weapons now? I thought they were meant to be officer weapons only, fluffwise at least.
oh, for some reason I thought the sergeants could get PW's in the current book, guess I was thinking Hardened Vets. I'll remove that, good catch.



Light infantry squads can move and shoot sniper rifles if the target is within 24"? I'm not sure i like that. they have to give up a heavy weapon to do so, and its only 2 BS3 sniper rifles. It's something I'd like to get a chance to playtest, as otherwise sniper rifles don't really seem all that useful compared with other special weapons.



I like the way you did veterans. Really cool. :D thanks



I'd change the wording on the valkyrie to vehicle wrecked and vehicle explodes, as it appears in the v5 codex. But then i'd consider automatically killing the passengers if the thing goes boom. Skimmers don't fly that high, and they still fall hard. I thought that outright killing the squad wasn't quite fair, especially as their transport likely costs much more than what its carrying, but that making it rather lethal would provide enough drawback. Currently if you have a 10man infantry squad in there and it explodes, you'll likely lose 6 guys, and if its just wrecked 2 guys will likely die.



Where are the rough riders holding these additional lances? Afaik lances are fairly unwieldy by themselves, but they're carrying enough spare lances to last an entire battle? Basically the problem currently with RR's is that they are a one-shot weapon. They fight one CC round and are done the entire game basically. I figured that it really wouldn't be all that hard to carry a couple extra lances stashed to the horse, and the cost of the RR's was increased by 50% to account for this as well.



I would actually consider fielding sentinels now. :D



I heard rumours about leman russes being able to come in squadrons, have you considered something along these lines? Yup, there's an ability in the vehicle armory that allows this.



As i finish up, i'm noticing there were a lot of small-manned automatic weapon platforms, like the tarantula, etc. Maybe they should be limited by like how many tech priests you take? Otherwise it seems more of an admech thing than a guard thing. The Tarantula is pretty much a standard auto-defense type thing, and its there because it was available to IG in 2nd ed and currently has IA rules and a model, so I threw it in.




Could use a bit more formatting to pretty it up, but other than that an interesting read.

yeah, I tried to keep the formatting as tight as possible given that its basically just a typical word document, I'd like to just put it in a PDF eventually.

Vaktathi
06-09-2008, 16:54
Upcoming changes/additions:

Special Weapon squads will be getting changed from 6man/3weapons to 5man/5 weapons

RR company will be added (RR's as Troops, RR command squad)

possible points adjustment on special weapons for Stormtroopers.

Commissar Tank Commander option will be added.

Self Propelled Guns will likely get the same ability the new SM vindi gets where it auto-passes terrain tests and come with the "Barrel Shroud" upgrade (downgrades weapon destroyed to "stunned").

Torga_DW
06-09-2008, 23:10
The problem is currently that they just don't last long enough do really put any hurt on against anything with a powerfist or S8, and their ability to take fire is rather poor. Any possible alternate suggestions?


I'd drop them back to t4 and then drop their points a bit. They're meant to be good in hth compared to a normal human, not compared to the other armies. Very few units in the game get pure t5 or better, and humans shouldn't be one of them. I mean, deathguard are genetically engineered superhumands and blessed by a GOD, and they're still only t4 (5).




True, but I really to come up with a way that the unit isn't going to become useless as a repair base if the Techpriest is killed given the new wound allocation rules, rather than the entire unit just becoming useless because one model died.


Maybe, but its the same problem all engineers face atm. Marines and orks off the top of my head. Kill the mek and the grotz don't know what to do.




Mmm good point, however that would make it a rather expensive unit (180pts for 6 tech servitors, 4 HB servitors, and a techpriest)

I think I may bump the cost on the weapons and reduce the total amount of servitors able to be taken by the unit to 8 total.


I'd just make them able to take 4 servitors total, and force the player to choose what he wants his unit to do. Especially since technical servitors give battlefield bonuses.




The Assault 3 gives them an identical average wound output to an S4 2 shot weapon (which is about what they need if they are going to really differentiate themselves from Carapace guardsmen really) against T4 targets, but still keeps the Hellgun basically a souped up Lasgun. I could just make it S4 assault 2, but then it allows them to threaten light vehicles which I don't think it should do personally.


I think the assault 18" rule makes them a hell of a lot better than a carapace guardsman. Me personally, i'd make the hellgun with 2 profiles:
rapid fire s3 ap5, or assault 1 s3 ap 5 18". Otherwise you're saying the galaxies most basic rifle can kick out as many shots as a heavy automatic weapon, like a burst cannon or heavy bolter.




They can, their transport cannot.


k just checking, coz i know the scouts rule confers the ability onto the transport vehicle. Maybe give them three options: infiltrate, or deepstrike, or scouts?




A barebones guardsmen compared to the current Ork Boy, Dire Avenger, SM/CSM is worth about 4pts after doing some math to determine average likely wounds suffered/inflicted. I know it seems low, but in light of the basic CSM, Ork Boy, and Dire Avenger, its hard to cost them low *enough*. Everyone else's basic troops are just so much better for the cost. At 5 or 6pts, Shoota Boyz out-fight *and* outshoot them on a point for point basis.


i think it'd need playtesting to be sure. Your mathhammer sounds reasonable enough, just need to see how it works in the field against different armies.




they have to give up a heavy weapon to do so, and its only 2 BS3 sniper rifles. It's something I'd like to get a chance to playtest, as otherwise sniper rifles don't really seem all that useful compared with other special weapons.


was this written with v5 in mind? coz sniper rifles now are rending and pinning. And bs3 is still a 50% chance to hit. 2 sniper rifles in a unit seems good to me, making them able to move and shoot seems overpowered.




I thought that outright killing the squad wasn't quite fair, especially as their transport likely costs much more than what its carrying, but that making it rather lethal would provide enough drawback. Currently if you have a 10man infantry squad in there and it explodes, you'll likely lose 6 guys, and if its just wrecked 2 guys will likely die.


But consider the consider the advantages you get from a flying apc. Iirc, it can only be shot on 6s, and adds +12" to the range to shoot at it. It ignores terrain when moving. It needs a drawback to counter the advantages, and like you said, the transport likely costs more than the squad.




Basically the problem currently with RR's is that they are a one-shot weapon. They fight one CC round and are done the entire game basically. I figured that it really wouldn't be all that hard to carry a couple extra lances stashed to the horse, and the cost of the RR's was increased by 50% to account for this as well.


true, but for that one round of cc, wowza! They make terminators wet their pants. If they could do that the entire battle, they'd become a no-brainer choice for MEQs. Maybe give them other options, in addition or instead of the lances. Like basic power weapons and las pistols instead of the lance. So you get more reliable performance, but not over-the-top killiness.




Yup, there's an ability in the vehicle armory that allows this.


k cool




The Tarantula is pretty much a standard auto-defense type thing, and its there because it was available to IG in 2nd ed and currently has IA rules and a model, so I threw it in.
.

yeah, but so were dreadnoughts and land speeders. Like i said, i'd restrict this kind of thing based on tech priests, because guard are about the manpower, not hi-tech automated systems.




yeah, I tried to keep the formatting as tight as possible given that its basically just a typical word document, I'd like to just put it in a PDF eventually.


Well i just think theres a lot more you could do with the basic formatting to make it easier to read. Remember, a pdf is just a converted word document most of the time. A lot of your codex size comes from the fact that every option is on its own line. I'd try to make it look more like the current codexes, just for ease of reading.


I see what you're trying to do with the codex, but some of your ideas move the theme away from grunt humans to marines-lite in performance. Thats just my 2 cents anyways.

Octavius_Maximus
06-09-2008, 23:47
I'd drop them back to t4 and then drop their points a bit. They're meant to be good in HtH compared to a normal human, not compared to the other armies. Very few units in the game get pure t5 or better, and humans shouldn't be one of them. I mean, deathguard are genetically engineered superhumands and blessed by a GOD, and they're still only t4 (5).


If Ogryns are Worse than other armies assault specialists, then there is no point in taking them.


I think the assault 18" rule makes them a hell of a lot better than a carapace guardsman. Me personally, i'd make the hellgun with 2 profiles:
rapid fire s3 ap5, or assault 1 s3 AP 5 18". Otherwise you're saying the galaxies most basic rifle can kick out as many shots as a heavy automatic weapon, like a burst cannon or heavy bolter.

That makes them too weak.

Why cant they fire as many shots as a Heavy bolter?! Whats the big deal?

What would also be cool is the current Stats for stormies, but make them fire their hellguns with both Relentless and 'Bs5'. That would make them very nasty and useful.


k just checking, coz i know the scouts rule confers the ability onto the transport vehicle. Maybe give them three options: infiltrate, or deepstrike, or scouts?

Infiltrate allows the Vehicle to Outflank.


was this written with v5 in mind? coz sniper rifles now are rending and pinning. And bs3 is still a 50% chance to hit. 2 sniper rifles in a unit seems good to me, making them able to move and shoot seems overpowered.

Hardly overpowered compared to its competition. The only change i would make is move and shoot, but only within 24" (may 18")


true, but for that one round of CC, wowza! They make terminators wet their pants. If they could do that the entire battle, they'd become a no-brainer choice for MEQs. Maybe give them other options, in addition or instead of the lances. Like basic power weapons and las pistols instead of the lance. So you get more reliable performance, but not over-the-top killiness.

I think that Rough Riders do need other options as well as Lances. Give them Scout or something aswell.

I would love Rough Riders with Rifles, but theres no real point in taking them. Make there a point!


yeah, but so were dreadnoughts and land speeders. Like i said, i'd restrict this kind of thing based on tech priests, because guard are about the manpower, not hi-tech automated systems.

Wrong, Guard are about Variability. Some Regiments dont use as much manpower.

Vaktathi
07-09-2008, 07:09
I'd drop them back to t4 and then drop their points a bit. They're meant to be good in hth compared to a normal human, not compared to the other armies. Very few units in the game get pure t5 or better, and humans shouldn't be one of them. After looking at their actual models however, they are *BIG*. even with their pithy armor, they are bigger than Oblits, terminators, Nobz, Chaos Lords, and very nearly the size of Daemon Princes.


I mean, deathguard are genetically engineered superhumands and blessed by a GOD, and they're still only t4 (5). Ah but they also have Feel No Pain, and aren't anywhere near the size (model wise or fluff wise) of Ogryns. They are a much smaller platform (even if large and resilient compared with normal humans).


The big problem is, at T4 with a 5+ save, they are just bolterbait and powerfists are too big a threat for them to enter combat with. Remember that *ALL* wounds a creature has that suffers instant death counts towards combat resolution, thus an Ogryn squad that loses 2 guys to powerfists after killing 4 Space Marines still loses combat by two, even though they only lost two guys. As a result, this makes their role as the IG's primary heavy CC unit rather untenable against anything with such weapons, and thus their role as a whole.




Maybe, but its the same problem all engineers face atm. Marines and orks off the top of my head. Kill the mek and the grotz don't know what to do. True, but I think that is a failing of the codex writers more than anything else. I'll have to double-check, but I think the new SM techmarine and servitors function much like my proposed unit does, except without the Techmarine they only function on a D6 roll of 4+, which is probably what I'll throw in.




I'd just make them able to take 4 servitors total, and force the player to choose what he wants his unit to do. Especially since technical servitors give battlefield bonuses. The new SM book follows mostly what I've written in terms of servitor allowance, however I'll probably end up modifying it a bit, likely reducing the extra battlefield bonuses to simply two per Techpriest.





I think the assault 18" rule makes them a hell of a lot better than a carapace guardsman. Me personally, i'd make the hellgun with 2 profiles:
rapid fire s3 ap5, or assault 1 s3 ap 5 18". The problem is they aren't doing enough damage at that point, especially not with Assault 1 18" to justify their cost. A basic 2 shot S3 weapon on ST's simply will never really be threatening enough to make them worth 10pts each unless special weapons access is drastically increased.

Even with an assault 3 hellgun, Stormtroopers are still going to lose a shooting war against Space Marines very badly once they get into 12", and are much more likely to survive to get into that range while footslogging that the ST's are to get into 18" range while footslogging.



Otherwise you're saying the galaxies most basic rifle can kick out as many shots as a heavy automatic weapon, like a burst cannon or heavy bolter. A Hellgun is far from the same thing as a hellgun. It is powered by a backpack battery unit that takes the place of most guardsmens field kit. As something that would probably be subject to intense maintenance after every engagement, I don't think it would be too bad. They've got those huge battery backs and cables leading to those oversized Lasguns that look like they should be quite deadly, but are nothing more than AP5 lasguns currently.

Also the actual number of dice rolled isn't necessarily reflective of the total RoF. Shotuns aren't likely firing 2 shots at 12", but rather clipping multiple targets or simply more likely to hit, pistols likely are firing multiple shots at close range but are only assault 1, Warp Spiders web guns likely aren't just firing two shots but rather a constant hail of web-gunk.

What I'm concerned with is the overall damage output relative to the units cost. to keep them 10pts, either an S4 2 shot weapon or a 3 shot S3 weapon is needed unless we want to load them with special weapons.





k just checking, coz i know the scouts rule confers the ability onto the transport vehicle. Maybe give them three options: infiltrate, or deepstrike, or scouts? Good point.





i think it'd need playtesting to be sure. Your mathhammer sounds reasonable enough, just need to see how it works in the field against different armies. It definitely needs playtesting. It could turn out that there's some variable I'm missing that means they should be more, but just going off the suffered/inflicted wound ratios (as well as likely chance of fall back, etc) for their respective costs, thats how I came up with the 4pts. It may very well need to be adjusted yet.





was this written with v5 in mind? coz sniper rifles now are rending and pinning. And bs3 is still a 50% chance to hit. 2 sniper rifles in a unit seems good to me, making them able to move and shoot seems overpowered. at 24" they still are making far fewer average casualties against 3+sv and higher models they they would with a Grenade Launcher, and certainly at 12" or less (or when stationary) the other special weapons are far and above more useful. In overall utility the Sniper Rifle is probably the least useful of th special weapons unfortunately. In a unit of snipers, they can be great, but on Infantry squads I really felt they needed something if a player wanted to base their force around them. Even with move and shoot sniper rifles, they still are generally an inferior choice even compared with the current grenade launcher (not the upgraded one I included).





But consider the consider the advantages you get from a flying apc. Iirc, it can only be shot on 6s, and adds +12" to the range to shoot at it. It ignores terrain when moving. It needs a drawback to counter the advantages, and like you said, the transport likely costs more than the squad. Ah, but its not an actual flyer here, just a Fast Skimmer that always counts as having moved over 12" for the purposes of shooting at it. They are hit at normal ballistic skill and do not add 12" to the range here. I'm thinking about removing the extra damage altogether the more I think about it, as its less armored than devilfish and Wave Serpents, carrying less impressive dudes, albeit with a good amount of firepower. I'm probably going to re-work it a little bit after I look back over the Eldar and Tau codex's and the current IA rules for them, likely just making them normal Fast Skimmers with a similar effect to Tau disruption pods.





true, but for that one round of cc, wowza! They make terminators wet their pants. If they could do that the entire battle, they'd become a no-brainer choice for MEQs. Maybe give them other options, in addition or instead of the lances. Like basic power weapons and las pistols instead of the lance. So you get more reliable performance, but not over-the-top killiness. Access to power weapons would be a good idea, I'll think about that. However even as they currently are, they are still T3 5+sv Ld7 guardsmen, and their CC abilities are rather negligable against many elite CC units like harlies, banshees, Wyches, Genestealers, etc. While they will pack a powerful punch on the charge, if they are still stuck in after that round they will likely get torn to shreds, and if anything shoots at them they die like normal guardsmen, but are 50% more expensive because if an opponent is dumb enough to let them survive, they will be amazing again.

As Octavius suggested, I'm thinking of making them Scouts, which would actually fit very well with their fluff (Tallarn, Atillan and Krieg fluff) and make them very useful.




yeah, but so were dreadnoughts and land speeders. Like i said, i'd restrict this kind of thing based on tech priests, because guard are about the manpower, not hi-tech automated systems. There's really no fluff for them being tech-guard only weapons, they are actually described as heavily used by Stormtroopers, Drop Troops and Arbites in IA:1.





Well i just think theres a lot more you could do with the basic formatting to make it easier to read. Remember, a pdf is just a converted word document most of the time. A lot of your codex size comes from the fact that every option is on its own line. I tried to do that so it didn't all get jumbled together and everything important would be clearly seen seperately from each other.


I'd try to make it look more like the current codexes, just for ease of reading. I'll try to when I get the chance, right now I'm just trying to get the list hammered out and any option/balance issues fixed.


but some of your ideas move the theme away from grunt humans to marines-lite in performance. Thats just my 2 cents anyways. actually if anything I think a couple units are moving closer to Eldar-like performance :p, but they can't keep all the cool stuff now can they?:D

blackcherry
07-09-2008, 12:57
Could I suggest for rough riders that if they use their hunting lances the first time they just become a close combat weapon? It allows then to engage multiple times in what i see as their main use close combat(a secondary use i've seen people do is just let them do quick drive by flamings/melta gunnings).

After all, a sharp stick, even if its had the end blown off is still a sharp stick when you add momentum into the equation.:D

Vaktathi
08-09-2008, 08:17
Could I suggest for rough riders that if they use their hunting lances the first time they just become a close combat weapon? It allows then to engage multiple times in what i see as their main use close combat(a secondary use i've seen people do is just let them do quick drive by flamings/melta gunnings).

After all, a sharp stick, even if its had the end blown off is still a sharp stick when you add momentum into the equation.:D

I basically gave them a Laspistol/CCW combo, so after they charge they still have 2 normal attacks in subsequent CC phases (if there are any) or if charged, they just don't get the extra bonus on the charge.

Strangething
16-12-2008, 02:19
I think your file is corrupted.

I'd like to see it, if only to compare it to my own fan codex. :D

Bunnahabhain
24-01-2009, 09:56
A few things that jump out at me:

Costing issues:
15 pt plasma as standard?
15/20 pt demo charges?
LR hull weapon costs? Too expensive

Ratlings too cheap?
Mortars too cheap?

Clarifications:
Doctrine system confusingly worded. Better if " A platoon may take a doctrine if wished at + x/y pts a squad, refer to doctrines, P XX for details. Additionally, any squad may buy the following equipment.

The current structure, with it being "+ XX pts" in some places and the squad cost is increased to x/y"in others is confusing

Ccommisars execute model in running unit, or their own, if nearby unit runs?
12" fearless bubble is huge.In effect for rest of player turn or game turn?


Shotguns as Costed upgrade? Really worth 1 pt per model? With re-roll to wound. Ahhhhh.

Suggestions:
Make Vanquisher round AP1, as it should be!

If ligh infantry can move and fire sniper rifles out to 24", why not their lasguns as well?

Make griffions 2 for 1 FOC slot, so they don't seem a waste of the FOC slot.

Pink Horror
25-01-2009, 05:33
I have to take some time to read this. I wanted to write up my own guard, too. I skimmed the tome. I like many of the ideas. I should say more than that, but I need to read it carefully. For now, let me say that liking many ideas is not just a polite way to say the execution is crap. A final response of, "Awesome!" is still being considered. :)

CthulhuDalek
25-01-2009, 08:23
I'm just going to write these notes as I move through the list...

-Hammer of the Emperor seems like a bit of a... cop out. Someone had an interesting idea on another thread that maybe you could count "surviving units" as killpoints for your own side... Some intermediate of this and your rule could work.

-Doctrines-- I'm already fearing getting to this section...

-I almost feel like sharpshooters should be a standard special rule for lasguns.

-I think that standard infantry squads shouldn't be able to take carapace armor, save it for stormies.

-Bolt pistol should cost more for officers.

-I don't see why the retinues themselves should cost more.

-Love the commissar rules!!! I'd suggest giving them more weapon options, like bionics or some such(any other cool wargear you can think of?). Maybe they should be cheaper and come standard with a laspistol(Cain anybody?)

-Priest...idk about the power of that rosarius. Too powerful for a little regular human dude. Maybe a 6+ invulnerable or make it a different ability altogether? He can also be a little bit cheaper and be weapon skill 3(He'll reroll to hit anyway!) Or you could make any unit he joins stubborn instead of getting counterattack.

-Primaris BS-- Relocation--overdone--instead make it more similar to tiggy's ability to help with deepstrikes. Perhaps allows him to make enemies reroll, allows a reroll for his own units, and counts as a beacon? Something more like that... I also think it has too many powers and costs slightly too much. He might be better with selecting any two or three powers for free and costing 60 points or so? Psychic ward should be 4+ for both psykers.

-There should be one set of psychic powers that they can select from. The big psyker can select 2 and buy a third, and the sanctioned can take one and buy another? Psychic lash can be used by either...maybe str. 5?

-I don't like the Ogryn's ability to make the enemy minus 1 init.... better off giving them str. 5 and furious charge...

-I find it strange for the techpriest to have power armor... I think it needs to be either artificer or carapace, but specifically power armor seems a little too techmarine like.

-Mech crew too powerful with the amount of minefields and forts they can put down. Make it that they can fortify up to one building and set one minefield, per unit.

-What about the Salamander for transport???

-I don't see why the artillery should give only one killpoint... that's a maximum of 15 guard plus emplacements for one killpoint? Unless they're deployed together...

-Storm trooper sgt needs A2...

-I think you mean an additional 5 troopers for the stormies entry.

-Powerweapons throughout 40k are kinda always 15 points... despite the model carrying them now...

-Should they still be allowed to deepstrike(stormies) when they'll have the valkyrie option?

-Stormies should just pass morale tests from shooting. They've been through tough **** before! aha.

-I think the "stormtrooper company" is really a bit much. It'd work if there was a rule like "if you take a heroic senior officer stormtroopers count as troops." or some such like that... and that was the extent of the rule.

-Why not name the officers anyway? Captains, Lieut's, corporals, generals??

-Warriors shouldn't give +1 weapon skill.... too powerful, really.

-Allow cyber enhancements to be taken as character upgrades?

-Let veterans simply allow the squad to gain + ld and ballistic skill 4 and that's it.

-Conscripts might need to just be phased out...

-I don't think chimeras should be expendable... rhinos aren't "expendable" and they're lighter.

-I could see the multiple rocket pod working well as Heavy 2, small blast...

-Vehicle destroyed should be a str.6 hit, and exploded should kill them instantly. It's a lot more dangerous to fall out of the sky moving at hundreds of miles per hour than a chimera starting to blow up. Maybe the valkyrie MUST move 12 inches minimum? And it can fire if it moves 18? or something to make it go faster as a flier?

-Just call power lifter a dreadnought close combat weapon...

-I think if imp guard have bikers...they wouldn't really want to use rough riders would they? Idk, I think it might be cool to have like a "scout bikers" type option that could aide someway strategically without being too much of an offensive unit. Maybe bikes could be a simple mount for characters as well?

-I think there's something wrong with your leman russ Vanquisher...Is it supposed to have a battlecanon, lascanon and one of the special sponsons? Or can it take any of the top weapons plus 65 just to use two plasmacanons or multimeltas?

-Tarantulas-- shouldn't count for killpoints, but cannot contest objectives.

-extra armor and armored crew compartment should probably 15 respectively.

-Rough terrain mods shouldn't completely ignore mines.

-Crush and grind should only work if a vehicle moved more than 6 inches in the previous turn.

-For infantry ladder-- If the vehicle suffers a crew shaken or weapon destroyed result the unit may not shoot in their next turn. If it suffers stunned or immobilized they must immediately "disembark" from the vehicle. Enemies attacking a vehicle with infantry ladders get a plus one on their rolls to hit as the vehicle is more easily accessible. Instead of the whole "it hits the unit too" thing.

Sharpshooters should only apply to laserweapons mounted on a vehicle.

-- I think it'd be VERY cool to say that one vehicle per army may take "the power of the machine spirit." :P

Vaktathi
25-01-2009, 23:04
In all honesty, I pretty much gave up on this as the new IG codex will soon be out, however I'll respond to some points.

Hopefully this will all be academic with the new codex in a couple months, here's to hoping they don't boff it again!


Bolt pistol should cost more for officers. It's the same cost it is in the current codex. Given that they won't fire more than once or twice in a game, and the difference between a single S3 and S4 shot is practically negligable, it's really a non issue.


Priest...idk about the power of that rosarius. Too powerful for a little regular human dude. Maybe a 6+ invulnerable or make it a different ability altogether? The 4+ is exactly what they have now however in the IG book.


He can also be a little bit cheaper and be weapon skill 3(He'll reroll to hit anyway!) Or you could make any unit he joins stubborn instead of getting counterattack.that means he's getting hit by most units on 3's instead of 4's. Counterattack I felt was more useful as it meant more attacks, given that they'll likely get pasted anyway and Ld7 or 8 means that stubborn isn't as useful as it is on other Ld9 or 10 units.


I find it strange for the techpriest to have power armor... I think it needs to be either artificer or carapace, but specifically power armor seems a little too techmarine like. Again, just using the current rules for Techpriests.


I don't like the Ogryn's ability to make the enemy minus 1 init.... better off giving them str. 5 and furious charge... Maybe, from what's been said that's what they are getting in the new book.


Powerweapons throughout 40k are kinda always 15 points... despite the model carrying them now... for Space Marines yes, Eldar still have 10pt PW's, and for IG at S3 and generally I3 WS3, anything more than 5pts is overkill I think.


Warriors shouldn't give +1 weapon skill.... too powerful, really.
I hardly think WS4 is horrendously powerful. IG can already get that with Hardened Veterans. It reduces incoming hits against most units by 16%, but really not enough to keep them from getting mashed, it just makes them a little more likely to get in an extra attack or two.


extra armor and armored crew compartment should probably 15 respectively. EA maybe, but then again it's also much less useful in 5th ed than in 4th, but the ACC for sentinels should not be 15pts for an AV10 single weapon model that gets popped on a 3+pen or 5+glance, although maybe 15 for a bassy.


I think the "stormtrooper company" is really a bit much. It'd work if there was a rule like "if you take a heroic senior officer stormtroopers count as troops." or some such like that... and that was the extent of the rule.
probably, but I like the idea of a heavy infantry shock troop regiment too :D


-I almost feel like sharpshooters should be a standard special rule for lasguns. hrm, that actually sounds really cool.



-I think you mean an additional 5 troopers for the stormies entry. Yeah, I kept meaning to fix that.


Clarifications:
Doctrine system confusingly worded. Better if " A platoon may take a doctrine if wished at + x/y pts a squad, refer to doctrines, P XX for details. Additionally, any squad may buy the following equipment.

The current structure, with it being "+ XX pts" in some places and the squad cost is increased to x/y"in others is confusing mmm...good point.

CthulhuDalek
26-01-2009, 01:28
In all honesty, I pretty much gave up on this as the new IG codex will soon be out, however I'll respond to some points.

Hopefully this will all be academic with the new codex in a couple months, here's to hoping they don't boff it again!

It's the same cost it is in the current codex. Given that they won't fire more than once or twice in a game, and the difference between a single S3 and S4 shot is practically negligable, it's really a non issue.

The 4+ is exactly what they have now however in the IG book.

that means he's getting hit by most units on 3's instead of 4's. Counterattack I felt was more useful as it meant more attacks, given that they'll likely get pasted anyway and Ld7 or 8 means that stubborn isn't as useful as it is on other Ld9 or 10 units.

Again, just using the current rules for Techpriests.

Maybe, from what's been said that's what they are getting in the new book.

for Space Marines yes, Eldar still have 10pt PW's, and for IG at S3 and generally I3 WS3, anything more than 5pts is overkill I think.

I hardly think WS4 is horrendously powerful. IG can already get that with Hardened Veterans. It reduces incoming hits against most units by 16%, but really not enough to keep them from getting mashed, it just makes them a little more likely to get in an extra attack or two.

EA maybe, but then again it's also much less useful in 5th ed than in 4th, but the ACC for sentinels should not be 15pts for an AV10 single weapon model that gets popped on a 3+pen or 5+glance, although maybe 15 for a bassy.

probably, but I like the idea of a heavy infantry shock troop regiment too :D

hrm, that actually sounds really cool.

Yeah, I kept meaning to fix that.

mmm...good point.
Aha but this isn;t the current dex it's the new one :P

I like the idea of giving them counterattack, but it seems they're being set up more like "we're running into combat like lunatics" unit than, we're sitting back waiting to be charged by lunatics unit.aha.

Ahhh, agreed on power weapons then. And I'm seeing your point for weapon skill 4 more.

I'm not seeing a storm trooper company, and I've always been against the idea that like every trooper could get carapace armor as if it were ration bars! Storm trooper squads are the elite of the elite, honing their combat skills for years, and even then it only trains them enough to do "objective" missions. Just allowing storm troopers to be taken as troops prevents people from also saying "yeah all my guys have carapace armor" "is it modelled?" "no, but there's no model for carapace armor gunners..."

But sure, heavy infantry-- they've gotten all the stormies together for a super important mission --but that doesn't mean they're going to start sitting back at an autocanon emplacement.

There could be a dual cost for tanks and non-tanks? For the crew compartment.

OH. How about penal legion squads?

Firaxin
26-01-2009, 02:10
-Stormies should just pass morale tests from shooting. They've been through tough **** before!
!
This is a very exciting idea.

Pink Horror
26-01-2009, 03:34
I hardly think WS4 is horrendously powerful. IG can already get that with Hardened Veterans. It reduces incoming hits against most units by 16%, but really not enough to keep them from getting mashed, it just makes them a little more likely to get in an extra attack or two.

Ugh. You should know math if you want to write these things. Let's say you have $6. You lose $1, so now you have $5. That is a ~ 16% reduction: $1 divided by $6.

Okay, let's say your guardsmen suffer 6 WS4 attacks. The average amount of hits is then 4, right?

Now, let's say your guardsmen have +1 WS, and they suffer 6 WS4 attacks. The average amount of hits is now 3.

The incoming hits were reduced from 4 to 3. That is a loss of 1. 1 / 4 is 25%. That is how percent reduction works. I swear, more than half the people I have seen do math for a Games Workshop product mess this up. (I usually see it in Blood Bowl, though, so I do not like the term Mathhammer.) (Of course, you are going to show that you meant something else and humiliate me, right?)

I want to write up a Guard book, and have it ready for when the other one comes out, just to compare. I think of it as a fun little exercise. I do not expect it to be used much. However, I think Warseer should have an entire, alternative 5th-edition-inspired rules section created by the fans. Players who come hear looking for an interesting change-of-pace should be able to find a whole new system, that is supposedly more "balanced" too, whatever that means. Then, the real excitement will come in when someone decides to run a tournament with those rules.

Part of this hobby, as G.W. keeps telling us, is making up our own rules and playing how we want. We should use that legal concession (the right to create and share derivative works amongst the gaming community) to the fullest extent possible. Why should we shackle ourselves to what they write? Let them keep coming up with neat ideas and minis. Buy every rulebook for inspiration and tons of models to play with. If the sales are strong, when you gather around the table, they will not care what you do.

Vaktathi
26-01-2009, 04:02
Ugh. You should know math if you want to write these things. Let's say you have $6. You lose $1, so now you have $5. That is a ~ 16% reduction: $1 divided by $6.

Okay, let's say your guardsmen suffer 6 WS4 attacks. The average amount of hits is then 4, right?

Now, let's say your guardsmen have +1 WS, and they suffer 6 WS4 attacks. The average amount of hits is now 3.

The incoming hits were reduced from 4 to 3. That is a loss of 1. 1 / 4 is 25%.[ase That is how percent reduction works. I swear, more than half the people I have seen do math for a Games Workshop product mess this up. (I usually see it in Blood Bowl, though, so I do not like the term Mathhammer.) (Of course, you are going to show that you meant something else and humiliate me, right?) your right, its the difference in the total statistical average (66% hits to 50% hits) rather than the net change in the number of hits (25%), poor wording, whatever, my mistake, no need for the condescending pedantic wall of text.. Either way, WS4 on guardsmen isn't exactly overpowered given A1 I3 S3 T3 5+sv Ld7 units, especially considering they have access to an ability to get it now and don't exactly have a plethora of CC weapons or abilities.





I want to write up a Guard book, and have it ready for when the other one comes out, just to compare. I think of it as a fun little exercise. that's pretty much what my aim was, to come up with something that tried to address the issues of the IG book and to see how well I could match the upcoming book.


However, I think Warseer should have an entire, alternative 5th-edition-inspired rules section created by the fans. Players who come hear looking for an interesting change-of-pace It would certainly be interesting.



Part of this hobby, as G.W. keeps telling us, is making up our own rules and playing how we want. We should use that legal concession (the right to create and share derivative works amongst the gaming community) to the fullest extent possible. Why should we shackle ourselves to what they write? Let them keep coming up with neat ideas and minis. Buy every rulebook for inspiration and tons of models to play with. If the sales are strong, when you gather around the table, they will not care what you do. The big problem will be getting other people to play with said rules, GW's managed to get the game so "tournament" oriented that most people won't play any game that isn't at the points level of the local tournies and won't play any army (even if its something like an IA list or Kroot Mercs, etc) that isn't allowed in the event. It'd be nice to see a change in that, but it would be hard to effect.


Aha but this isn;t the current dex it's the new one :P Yes, but I just didn't think most of those things needed to be changed.



I like the idea of giving them counterattack, but it seems they're being set up more like "we're running into combat like lunatics" unit than, we're sitting back waiting to be charged by lunatics unit.aha. True, but IG still have a much better chance of getting assaulted than actually assaulting something, if for no other reason than everyone else's assaulty units are better at getting into CC.




I'm not seeing a storm trooper company, and I've always been against the idea that like every trooper could get carapace armor as if it were ration bars! Storm trooper squads are the elite of the elite, honing their combat skills for years, and even then it only trains them enough to do "objective" missions. Just allowing storm troopers to be taken as troops prevents people from also saying "yeah all my guys have carapace armor" "is it modelled?" "no, but there's no model for carapace armor gunners..." Personally I think the current Cadians already look Carapace armored compared to most other IG models. While I see your point about ST's, it's a good one, there are also IG regiments that have similar equipment and training to stormtroopers, but operate more as typical IG regiments (there's at least one in the first Gaunts Ghosts series, I can't remember it's name off the top of my head though)





There could be a dual cost for tanks and non-tanks? For the crew compartment.mmm good idea.



OH. How about penal legion squads? I thought about it, but wasn't sure how to put them in without essentially being the same thing as conscripts.

CthulhuDalek
26-01-2009, 05:19
your right, its the difference in the total statistical average (66% hits to 50% hits) rather than the net change in the number of hits (25%), poor wording, whatever, my mistake, no need for the condescending pedantic wall of text.. Either way, WS4 on guardsmen isn't exactly overpowered given A1 I3 S3 T3 5+sv Ld7 units, especially considering they have access to an ability to get it now and don't exactly have a plethora of CC weapons or abilities.



that's pretty much what my aim was, to come up with something that tried to address the issues of the IG book and to see how well I could match the upcoming book.

It would certainly be interesting.

The big problem will be getting other people to play with said rules, GW's managed to get the game so "tournament" oriented that most people won't play any game that isn't at the points level of the local tournies and won't play any army (even if its something like an IA list or Kroot Mercs, etc) that isn't allowed in the event. It'd be nice to see a change in that, but it would be hard to effect.

Yes, but I just didn't think most of those things needed to be changed.

True, but IG still have a much better chance of getting assaulted than actually assaulting something, if for no other reason than everyone else's assaulty units are better at getting into CC.


Personally I think the current Cadians already look Carapace armored compared to most other IG models. While I see your point about ST's, it's a good one, there are also IG regiments that have similar equipment and training to stormtroopers, but operate more as typical IG regiments (there's at least one in the first Gaunts Ghosts series, I can't remember it's name off the top of my head though)



mmm good idea.

I thought about it, but wasn't sure how to put them in without essentially being the same thing as conscripts.

The priests' ability combined with the Warriors doctrine could turn basic guard squads into a relatively strong assault unit(for guard). Maybe the amount of advisors should stay at 5? Or one advisor per command squad? Something like that(The advisor would act as an independent character? Or to make it simpler would be an upgrade like sgt, this would stop the killpoints problem..)

That's the issue though, people say "well it looks like carapace armor, enough" when they've basically established "if it's bulky enough to look like a storm trooper" that's carapace armor. Idk, it kinda seems to make stormies redundant to make squads with their exact skills.

I think conscripts should remain a big blob of like 30-50 troopers with lasguns, that have a sgt leading them. They'd be dirt cheap, but with little to no upgrades?

Penal squads however, should be like the last chancers. They're essentially a suicide squad that should have terrible leadership, and could be lead by a sgt or commissar. Some will try to escape and others are psychotics that want nothing more than killing as many dirty xenos before they get shot by a firing squad...

Pink Horror
26-01-2009, 06:20
whatever, my mistake, no need for the condescending pedantic wall of text..

I am usually accused of expecting people to know too much. So, I shot too far in the other direction. My mistake, too.

Edit: after reading again, I have to be pedantic again. Throwing around the "difference in statistical average" as a number for comparison is the sort of thing that makes people mistrust all statistics. This time, I'll let you figure out why.