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Little Aaad
30-08-2008, 19:42
I cant seem to find any weaknesses in this army. Flamers especially.

Help please!

ROCKY
30-08-2008, 20:02
errr what army? and yeah flamers are bad but if u get into combat they will have litle to shoot at. also you might want to tell us what army you are using.

Little Aaad
30-08-2008, 20:23
Does that really matter? I wanted the weaknesses in the Daemons. Anyway, I do DE.

theunwantedbeing
30-08-2008, 20:32
Weaknesses?

Mostly t3 5+ save army (doesnt matter if its an armour save or a ward save, it's only a 5+ and as well all know, 5+ save t3 troops are easy to kill)

Expensive troops.
Sure the core lot is 12pts each, the special stuff is much more expensive, and the rare stuff is even more expensive. And most of that is just t4 with a 5+ save, not exactly difficult to kill with frankly, anything.

Expensive character's.
A greater daemon is a lot of points, a normal hero can easily be 150points+, while not being overly tough (barring the nurgle stuff of course).

Low magic.
Unless it's a tzeentch horror army, your not going to be facing too much magic.

Immune to psychology.
They can't bait your uber unit, and aside from nurgle troops, and a greater daemon...they can't really stand upto your uber unit.

Daemons have lots of exploitable weaknesses.

Lijacote
30-08-2008, 21:54
Like theunwantedbeing so aptly put it, t3 5+ saves are not that good. Large volumes of attacks will dent a daemon army, 'cept maybe one of those Plaguebearer imbablocks of regenerating doom.

Bring fire.

If you can make the potential greater daemon useless (tarpit, etc) then you've already won a little.

Kill the BSB (that's obvious though, sorry)

ChaosCajun
31-08-2008, 01:43
Salamanders, organ cannons, and the like that hit without rolling to hit are the bane of my flamers. Charge the flamers if you can't shoot them in this way.

No armor save on any but a select few khornate models means only the ward save stops wounds. Lots of T3 models. If facing horrors, charge them. If others, shoot them. You play DE, so shoot them, march block, and shoot again. The army is expensive and small usually, so shoot them.

LKHERO
31-08-2008, 01:49
I personally don't think Daemons have much weakness.

5+ true ward save vs. everything.
Fear on everything.
Magic attacks on everything.
and best of all,

IMMUNE TO PSYCHOLOGY.

FtL....

Prince_Zail
31-08-2008, 06:53
you realize that you basically just listed the rules for being daemonic right?...

LKHERO
31-08-2008, 07:09
you realize that you basically just listed the rules for being daemonic right?...

Hence, they have no weaknesses from my point of view.

gary0044187
31-08-2008, 07:10
high point value per model + low toughness and armor for most

that seems like a big enough weakness to me. Remember some armies are immune or highly resistant to your most volitile weapon- Fear

PeG
31-08-2008, 08:48
DE should be able to do alright against daemons. Using repeater crossbows and bolt throwers you can send massive amounts of arrows against him which kills lots of daemons. The bolt thrower even has a chance of taking out a greater daemon (especially if you take several of them so he cant hide). Since daemons doesnt shoot back (with a few exceptions) range is a smaller problem then against many other armies.

The reverse ward save gives you a way of standing up to his greater daemons (at least to tie him up in combat).

Against most of his units assasins will also make a lot of damage.

The hydra will be able to take the majority of daemon units in combat if properly supported by other troops. Unfortunately a hydra means fewer bolt throwers so which is best depends on what you are facing.

They dont have miscast protection so your ring that makes them miscast on doubles will hurt them. You can also take lots of magic resistance if you are facing a magic heavy daemon army.

They will not be easy to win against but I think that there are several armies that can put up a good fight against daemons (or at least that are able to shoot them). Of course there are a few exceptions like WE that are normally a strong army but that doesnt have anything that can deal with some of the greater daemons.

Cambion Daystar
31-08-2008, 09:14
If you're not telling us what army you're fighting against (Tzeentch, Nurgle, Khorne, Slaanesh, Mixed) and what he is taking, we can't offer solid advice, because most of those armies fight completely different.

However, Reaper Bolt Throwers are ace against daemons. And remember, ItP is as much a disadvantage as an advantage (you can't flee from charges...). DE shouldn't have much problems with fear (LD10 lord? and LD9 heros).

Storak
31-08-2008, 12:58
Salamanders, organ cannons, and the like that hit without rolling to hit are the bane of my flamers. Charge the flamers if you can't shoot them in this way.

the organ gun will kill slightly more than 1, the salamander slightly less than one.

why would your opponent allow you to charge them?

sorry, flamers are a flawless unit.

xragg
31-08-2008, 12:59
I personally don't think Daemons have much weakness.

5+ true ward save vs. everything.
Fear on everything.
Magic attacks on everything.
and best of all,

IMMUNE TO PSYCHOLOGY.

FtL....

I wouldnt call immune to psychology on everything a strength.
5+ ward/fear/magic attacks on everything but paying an arm and leg in points per model for it.

Its like terminators in 40k, they are very expensive models with a 2+ save. Throw enough fire at it, and they will roll a 1 eventually. People overrate terminators way too much in the same way some people overrate demons in fantasy.

Mozzamanx
31-08-2008, 13:01
If they have a Greater Daemon, then you should outnumber his at least 2:1, even with Dark Elves.

fubukii
31-08-2008, 15:38
want to kill flamers? charge them with any thing that has a rank bonus, their attacks will not be able to compensate for their lack of static CR, or anything that can fight in combat (most knights for example)

even a full unit assuming by some means that the charging unit didnt kill a single model
12 atks from flamers half hit, on average t4 guys will do 5 wounds, probably 1 save, so 4 cr to 6, flamers take test on ld5 unless general nearby.

Storak
31-08-2008, 16:22
flamers are M6 skirmishers.

ranked infantry has massive difficulty catching them. as does cavalry.

and the flamers can shredder "med" and light cav, even on the stand and shoot reaction.

with skirmishers not blocking their own LOS, you can hide them between your own units.

fubukii
31-08-2008, 17:46
flamers are M6 skirmishers.

ranked infantry has massive difficulty catching them. as does cavalry.

and the flamers can shredder "med" and light cav, even on the stand and shoot reaction.

with skirmishers not blocking their own LOS, you can hide them between your own units.

Theres plenty of ways to trap m6 skirmishers multiple ranked units, your own skirmishers magic spells that slow down their movement (mistress of the marsh ) fast knight units, march blocking etc. Large flying creatures, spells that let you move twice etc.

Just because they are movement 6 skirmishers doesnt make them uncatchable.

Shamfrit
31-08-2008, 18:06
March blocking flamers? They'll blow anything that tries out of the water, since march blocking would put them within short range distance. Sacrificing a unit to slow them down for a turn does not equate to dealing with them; especially since most weak units that act in this capacity won't last a round in combat with them; with stand and shoot and the Flamers stupidly good stats that is.

Concentrated fire is the only way to go.

RossS
31-08-2008, 19:48
I like shooting deamons. A lot. Crossbows, handguns, Rocket Batteries, Volleyguns, longbow-armed elves, repeater crossbows...really anything will work. The average deamon unit (not the big beastly ones-which can be dealt with with rank bonuses and cannons) is composed of pretty fragile models. 5+ ward save is all fine and dandy, but it isn't going to save you from a barrage by someone who really means it.

Just concentrate fire on the units. CR will take care of the big 'uns. Oh, and a large unit of heavy cavalry will make a mess of flamers.

Storak
31-08-2008, 20:04
I like shooting deamons. A lot. Crossbows, handguns, Rocket Batteries, Volleyguns, longbow-armed elves, repeater crossbows...really anything will work. The average deamon unit (not the big beastly ones-which can be dealt with with rank bonuses and cannons) is composed of pretty fragile models. 5+ ward save is all fine and dandy, but it isn't going to save you from a barrage by someone who really means it.

Just concentrate fire on the units. CR will take care of the big 'uns.

more shooting will definitely improve the game.


Oh, and a large unit of heavy cavalry will make a mess of flamers.

2d6 strength d6+4 hits make a mess out of large units of heavy cav.

and 60 points of flying wonder will make your cav ride past his flamers..

PeG
31-08-2008, 20:57
more shooting will definitely improve the game.




Which is maybe the biggest problem with the new daemons. For many armies massive amounts of shooting is the only way of dealing with them which doesnt make a very fun game against daemons or against anyone else.

Little Aaad
31-08-2008, 21:26
For me though, I find their flamers very difficult, and the massed ward saves on horror units. I thought ward saves were 'special' as is ASF! Now everyone has them rules! Some, both! (Pheonix Guard)

EvC
31-08-2008, 22:09
I think people should just consider what even a mildly competitive Daemon army will contain before they offer advice on defeating one. T3 5+ ward you say? Yes, that's on the 20 or 30 mostly irrelevent only-there-to-fill-core infantry models in the army and usually only seen in larger numbers when they're Nurgle troops... with a Herald: T4, 5+ ward and regeneration. Hardly soft. Yes a unit of Horrors will die to bowfire (Or will it? Last time I poured 16 shots into a unit of Horrors I killed one, damn ward save), and Bloodletters will take a beating getting across the board, but they only need a few models to survive to make a difference (And more often: act as an unkillable Herald delivery system).

Most the army will be T4, 5+ ward and 2+ wounds. We're talking Flesh Hounds, Flamers, Beasts and Fiends here. And Greater Daemons and Heralds. None of that is weak: yes, grand amounts of shooting will certainly be a big boost against such forces, but with most armies containing multiple 20" moving units, shooting won't last long without significant protective efforts.

I've had several games against Daemons so far, and the only thing close to a weakness I've observed is that their power level is so great, that the people playing with them will probably be quite lax in general and not bother with any of their own pesky tactics. If you wait, they may make BIG mistakes for you to capitalise upon. But a competent player? Well, prat for half-decent dice and you may stand a chance. I have yet to have a game against them without being diceraped so I'm a little biased against them ;)


the organ gun will kill slightly more than 1, the salamander slightly less than one.

why would your opponent allow you to charge them?

Because they're actually very strong in close combat (They remind me of Thorek: you finally get into combat with the bugger, breathe a sigh of relief and then he beats the crap out of you anyway), and it will give them an additional stand and shoot. I agree with your assessment that they are flawless :(

The Inspector
31-08-2008, 23:47
Their biggest weakness is perhaps list composition.

As EvC says, most daemonic generals heavily lament the obligation of filling out their core choices. That is 360 points that they didn't want to spend. If they want the core choices to have a significant impact on the game, they'll have to boost their numbers to at least 20+ and have an expensive Herald in there to make use of the locus abilities. In fact, you'll rarely see a large daemonic core choice that isn't a bodyguard for a BSB herald.

After that, it's the expensive Greater Daemon which can be in excess of 600 points. As mentioned, a BSB is practically mandatory in a list where every model is so expensive which is another 200 points if fully upgraded.

Then the Daemon general can finally start including the mad-crazy stuff that causes the complaints, but he has already spent around 1200 points on the minimum requirements. Flamers cost quite a bit [although it is still a fantastic price for what they are], as do the Hounds and Screamers.

What they can feasibly put down on a table in a standard 2000 point game is not a great deal. With daemon lists that have a Greater Daemon [which is the majority, except for the 3x nurgle herald + epidemus lists] you can expect to outnumber them around 3-to-1. Granted, everything Daemonic is usually rock hard and makes you nervous but every wound you cause is a minimum of 12 points to the Daemon list.

I'm not denying Daemons are a very hard list. But it all comes at a price.

Kerrahn
01-09-2008, 00:27
My Flamers do crap all in the games I've played.

And one really big weakness for Flamers (and Skulltaker, apparently, and just about any Tzeentch army) I found when playing recently - Dragon Princes. I just had to assume my opponent didn't know they caused Flaming attacks and decided not to charge them with his DP.

He charged, and then when I informed him that I was not stand-and-shooting because of Flaming attacks, he was 1st surprised, and then laughing when I also mentioned CC attacks were flaming too.

Only good thing was they held long enough for Flesh Hounds to destroy his other DP unit and pursue into the flank of that combat.

][nquist0r
01-09-2008, 00:48
A well constructed DoC list really has no weaknesses per se. Regenerating blocks of plaguebearers as core, 2-3 units of flesh hounds a couple units of flamers, and a two headed Greater daemon of Tzeentch. Have a bad magic phase? Wait till shooting, Bad Shooting? Wait till combat. Bad combat? Get new dice! Seriously they are expensive, but have units that do everything well when combined together. I hate them! (Mostly because my first list was a daemon one like 10 years ago and traded away all my figs and I cant play them now!!!) lol

RossS
01-09-2008, 04:32
more shooting will definitely improve the game.



2d6 strength d6+4 hits make a mess out of large units of heavy cav.

and 60 points of flying wonder will make your cav ride past his flamers..


Too true. How unsporting of me to even consider using that pesky shooting phase to my best advantage. Henceforth, my Empire and Dogs of War infantry will hunker down in their deployment zone and wait, obligingly, for the Deamonic hordes to scamper across the table and tear them to ribbons. Maybe, when they are feeling adventurous, they can march forward a couple of times, and get massacred in the center of the table.

I am altogether sick of people bashing the shooting phase.

VC Doke
01-09-2008, 06:01
For the record:
Banner of Blood Keep only protects against ranged attacks i.e. magic missiles, templates, war machines, etc.

Lore of Metal works the best.

Though because of the cost of Blood knights and if I would to bother to put a unit of Blood Knights against Daemons, (probably 3rd choice out of rares), I'd put a Hero Vampire with the Drakenhof Banner in there to give them regeneration.

BK with regen is sick, just sick.

Urgat
01-09-2008, 08:22
I got to say they don't seem to like rock lobba templates.

EvC
01-09-2008, 09:40
Fantastic post by Kerrahn: "my Flamers do crap", followed by a little story where they get charged by what is the single best anti-Flamer unit in existence (Dragon Princes), and still survived for a unit of Flesh Hounds to flank them. Once again: Flamers are not weak in combat in the slightest, engage them at your own risk!


For the record:
Banner of Blood Keep only protects against ranged attacks i.e. magic missiles, templates, war machines, etc.

For the record, a ranged attack is any attack done at range. Including things like Spirit of the Forge, Uranon's Thunderbolt, etc. even if they are not designated as magic missiles.

fubukii
01-09-2008, 10:39
[nquist0r;2911356']A well constructed DoC list really has no weaknesses per se. Regenerating blocks of plaguebearers as core, 2-3 units of flesh hounds a couple units of flamers, and a two headed Greater daemon of Tzeentch. Have a bad magic phase? Wait till shooting, Bad Shooting? Wait till combat. Bad combat? Get new dice! Seriously they are expensive, but have units that do everything well when combined together. I hate them! (Mostly because my first list was a daemon one like 10 years ago and traded away all my figs and I cant play them now!!!) lol

even a 14 man block of regenerating plaguebearers is gonna cost you alot of points 400-500 points (hero included)
now 600ish pts for the chicken
350+ for the hounds
and 430 for the flamers, seems like thats a bit more then your average 2k army :)

this army would have like 6pd as well unless you spend even more pts on your nurgle heralds making them upwards to 250 ish pts a hero. god forbid you have a bsb as well!

Kerrahn
01-09-2008, 11:57
Fantastic post by Kerrahn: "my Flamers do crap", followed by a little story where they get charged by what is the single best anti-Flamer unit in existence (Dragon Princes), and still survived for a unit of Flesh Hounds to flank them. Once again: Flamers are not weak in combat in the slightest, engage them at your own risk!

Only because the Dragon Princes could only do so many 5 S5 hits and 5 S3 hits against 5 Flamers with full wounds remaining, lol

vahouth
01-09-2008, 12:01
For the record:

Though because of the cost of Blood knights and if I would to bother to put a unit of Blood Knights against Daemons, (probably 3rd choice out of rares), I'd put a Hero Vampire with the Drakenhof Banner in there to give them regeneration.

BK with regen is sick, just sick.

Regeneration won't do the trick...
1st Flaming attacks
2nd In case of facing Bloodletters, Blood Crushers etc. Killing Blow
will negate the regeneration.
The Vampiric power which reduces the Ld of the enemy will help u though in instabillity.
If the Vampire is a BSB also with war banner...;)

EvC
01-09-2008, 12:06
Only because the Dragon Princes could only do so many 5 S5 hits and 5 S3 hits against 5 Flamers with full wounds remaining, lol

Well yes, exactly: even the best cavalry in the game won't do it! (Although it's 2S5 attacks per DP- if your opponent forgot their extra attack, that might explain how the Flamers survived)

][nquist0r
01-09-2008, 16:09
even a 14 man block of regenerating plaguebearers is gonna cost you alot of points 400-500 points (hero included)
now 600ish pts for the chicken
350+ for the hounds
and 430 for the flamers, seems like thats a bit more then your average 2k army :)

this army would have like 6pd as well unless you spend even more pts on your nurgle heralds making them upwards to 250 ish pts a hero. god forbid you have a bsb as well!

We play 2250 point games. *shrug* :cries:

txamil
01-09-2008, 16:41
How are your assassins on the heralds?

Storak
02-09-2008, 07:28
How are your assassins on the heralds?

the nurgle one will eat him for breakfast, as he will strike last.

but the situation isn t good from the beginning: 2/3 to hit, 2/3 to wound (manbane?) and 2/3 vs the ward save gives a 8/27 chance to cause a wound per attack. on average it will take 7 attacks to cause 2 wounds...


can anyone explain, why heralds of nurgle are S5?
comparing the stats to a black orc, is just horrible. it looks like regeneration costs him about the 30 points difference (pretty cheap actually)
that leaves all the daemon rules (ward save?!? fear, ..) and poisoned attacks a a FREE bonus.
and they both give an advantage to the unit they join: the BO will cause D6 S5 hits on his unit, to make them move normally (during animosity test). the herald provides "only" regeneration to the unit he joined.

pretty absurd.

i am still looking for a way to kill that nurgle herald with my orcs. any advice?

Storak
02-09-2008, 09:18
I got to say they don't seem to like rock lobba templates.

are your templates bigger than mine?

typically the template will only cover 9 big bases and only the centre one will be completely covered.
against T3 daemons. 1 autohit+ 4 additional. 4 wounds. 3 kills after ward save. not too impressive, is it?

the maximum i can fit under the template are 4 auto hits and 10 partials. 9 hits. 7 wounds. 5 kills.

not very impressive, as you need to to score that HIT on that unit first.

ps: my feeling telly me, to always target the herald, and NOT to try the centre of the unit..

DeathlessDraich
02-09-2008, 09:22
Headbutt + Nibbla's Ring killed my Nurgle Herald by turn 5.

Storak
02-09-2008, 11:27
Headbutt + Nibbla's Ring killed my Nurgle Herald by turn 5.

i am unconvinced. i wont dominate the magic phase against daemons.
(and can anyone explain to me, why the ring is power level 3 AND has the chance to damage the wielder?)

S5 hits. to kill the herald, you need to reduce his 2 wounds.
with regeneration, that is 4 and including the ward, that is 6. S5 vs T5 means, that i have to cast the spell 12 times successfully, on this one target.
(if i was only using the ring to do this, my hero would take 2 S5 hits as well, with no armour saves allowed. pretty good chance to kill a goblin hero as well...)

isidril93
02-09-2008, 12:38
daemons are tough b ut i guess you just have to learn from plkaying against them. remember that you should aim for the expensive stuff first. blood crusher wont live if you use war machines and a greater daemon would surely be weakened.

isidril93
02-09-2008, 12:39
sorry double post.

Crower
02-09-2008, 13:09
u cant kill a Nugle herald with anything but something REALLY heavy or lucky dices (Or, of course, Flamming attacks..)

Its a hero designed to last. In a unit, designed to last also.. U cant really do much about it.

Anyway, mass shooting do indeed wonders agains daemons. High tier troops , with High cost, and just 5+ save? (Most of them at least). They are screaming "Hey , shoot me down!!!!"

Appart from that.. there isnt really much u can say abaut "Daemons" weakness, i mean, all 4 gods are sooo diferent, u cant really make some general statements abaut the army. Appart from the fact that they are "Easy" to kill by mass shooting them.

Storak
02-09-2008, 13:16
daemons are tough b ut i guess you just have to learn from plkaying against them. remember that you should aim for the expensive stuff first. blood crusher wont live if you use war machines and a greater daemon would surely be weakened.

daemons keep winning basically all tournaments at the moment. they tend to end games with massacres. i doubt that you will change that, by killing a few soft points..

shooting a BT is difficult. bolt throwers need to hit him 9 times, to cause 6 wounds. he must allow me to shoot him between 14 and 18 times.

the math on a GU is horrible. (8 bolt throwers at short range would barely kill him during the 6th turn..)

furies are some of the best war machine hunters in the game. i don t see, how you can keep them from killing the war machines in turn 2.

Storak
02-09-2008, 13:28
u cant kill a Nugle herald with anything but something REALLY heavy or lucky dices (Or, of course, Flamming attacks..)

Its a hero designed to last. In a unit, designed to last also.. U cant really do much about it.

that would be fine with me. if he wasn t allowed to carry all those nasty battle standards, that basically ruin my army. (Ld -2 anyone?)

and if he wasn t damned hitty (S5 poison?!?) and cheap.

somehow i haven t found all those flamming attacks in the O&G army book so far.


Anyway, mass shooting do indeed wonders agains daemons. High tier troops , with High cost, and just 5+ save? (Most of them at least). They are screaming "Hey , shoot me down!!!!"

orcish shooting will not.
and the 5+ save is a WARD, which makes quite a difference against war machines. (or armour piercing shots..) as do large bases.
the save prevents my bolts from getting into ranks.


Appart from that.. there isnt really much u can say abaut "Daemons" weakness, i mean, all 4 gods are sooo diferent, u cant really make some general statements abaut the army. Appart from the fact that they are "Easy" to kill by mass shooting them.

i agree.

i think a major problem with the army is, that it can easily dominate several phases. and can chose, what phase to dominate...

wizuriel
02-09-2008, 13:30
I don't see why people are saying a 5+ ward save is weak. 5+ ward means 1/3 of all wounds should be saved and there is next to no way to negate that (unlike armour where everything these days seem S4+ or AP or both)

Crower
02-09-2008, 13:46
Its not Weak. Its a 1/3. Thats exactly the point.

Wards are good bc u can always use it, and high S impacts do not modify it.

That means, The harder they hit (4+) the greatter the Ward is compared to Normal armour.

But.. with S 3 hits, its almos like a normal save.. (yeah, i know its not, but u get the idea..)

mass Shooting with low S impacts, its a "Cheap" way to kill Daemons. Thats it.

Ward is awesome, but means Nothing when u are just been arrowed to death with s3 hits.

And, 1/3 is JUST 1/3.

Considering the cheapest troop u ll find on the battlefield are 12p worth.. "heavy armor" (Wich, its exactly like a 5 wardS at effects of s3 shooting..) is not "a lot" .. is weak. So yes, shooting works.


i am not saying that shoots ll uttery destroy daemons, i am just saying is the best way to deal with them... and just in general.. as pointed out before, Daemons can change A LOT, depending on what you deploy.. so u cant really have a general strategy against the army in general. The way u are gonna deal vs a Wall of nurgle have NOTHING to be with the way u ll have to deal vs a Tzeehtch Flying circus...

And about nurgle heralds... yeah Storak, i agree with u.. they are just too cheap Imho, but there is nothing u can do about theyr point cost.. ;)

theunwantedbeing
02-09-2008, 13:49
It's a psychological thing.
Calling it a ward somehow infers that it's better, when most of the time it isnt.

Most ingame things arent able to ignore most saves. Most ingame things barely penetrate armour (which is why heavy cavalry are such a pain).
So they are running around with 2+ and 3+ saves, and your daemons are running around with 5+ saves and t3(4).

EvC
02-09-2008, 14:27
Well a Ward Save is unquestionably better than an armour save of the same value :)

Most in-game things will reduce a save. How many basic S3 shooting troops do you see on the battlefield these days? Against High Elves 2 x 10 Archers. The rest of it is Crossbows/ Handguns (Empire), armour piercing repeater crossbows/ RBTs (Dark Elves), bows with S4 or killing blow (Wood Elves- let's face it, most of the time against Daemons you'll be short range), Vampires get a Banshee scream (Ward save works, armour does not), Dwarfs... need I go on? Skinks are about the only thing I can think of that's worth using. Maybe Bretonnian Archers with flaming arrows to kill a Plaguebearer every turn. But we're talking about basic troops here anyway. Cavalry- Bloodcrushers get the 4+ save and a ward, and 2 wounds for them and Flesh Hounds. Don't even think about Fiends and Beasts- this leaves just one unit in the entire army that can be described as fragile- Seekers of Slaanesh. Which are fast cav so can hfe, move 20" and be in combat on turn 2 most likely.

It's a hell of a weakness...

Storak
02-09-2008, 17:22
But.. with S 3 hits, its almos like a normal save.. (yeah, i know its not, but u get the idea..)

mass Shooting with low S impacts, its a "Cheap" way to kill Daemons. Thats it.

Ward is awesome, but means Nothing when u are just been arrowed to death with s3 hits.

And, 1/3 is JUST 1/3.

this is true in theory. but it has one big problem. S3 shooting is only S3.

the math looks like this: to kill 2 daemons, you need 3 wounds (ward) and you will need 6 hits, to score the wounds with S3.

with normal bows (and short bows!) you will hit on 5+ most of the time, so in the end it takes 18 S3 shots, to kill 2 daemons....

animosity doesn t help either, so in the end, don t expect 10 orcs to kill more than 3 daemons during a battle by shooting.

Crower
02-09-2008, 22:41
Well.. i guess the problem there is not a bunch of ubber Daemons inmune to shooting, but a bunch of orcs trying to shoot them down with bows.. they are not great archers to say at least.. but, o well.. what can Orcs do to Daemons anyway? atm, Daemos are *The* army, and Orcs....


Unlucky enough storak, orcs do really need a new codex. I really hope they get one soon, b/c i do love Orcs.. (But, it seems it ll not be soon enough... :_( )

txamil
02-09-2008, 23:47
daemons are tough b ut i guess you just have to learn from plkaying against them. remember that you should aim for the expensive stuff first. blood crusher wont live if you use war machines and a greater daemon would surely be weakened.

I think this is almost exactly backwards with Daemons. You are not going to kill the big things with any warmachine shy of a great cannon, so try and clear the weaker stuff to create some lanes for flanking and rear charges, and to ensure your units aren't al tied waiting to get smashed by something super killy.

][nquist0r
03-09-2008, 01:37
You need a item with KB to kill the herald. Once he is gone the unit dies quickly.

SlaaneshSlave
03-09-2008, 01:55
daemons keep winning basically all tournaments at the moment.
Really? Which tournaments?

The Hillbilly Invitational/Big Waaagh this July had 132 players. 18 of them were DoC armies (WE had the 2nd most armies with 16).

The top DoC player came in 10th.

Doesn't seem to be that broken an army list. Or were all 18 players retarded & not just me?

El Haroldo
03-09-2008, 05:01
Anecdotal evidence is pretty useless. If that's the one in the batreps forum, a daemon player got best general for that tourney and won 5/6 of his games with a massacre. Not winning overall is different.

Axemaster, a local tournament in Melbourne, Australia, was admittedly a lot smaller, but 3 of the top five placings were DoC.

Small armies are an issue for deamons, but fragile isn't really a problem when you have 4+ wards, 5+ wards and 4+ regen, and the ones that don't, don't care, ie MSU daemonettes or meatshield for the herald Bloodletters.

Storak
03-09-2008, 07:19
Really? Which tournaments?

The Hillbilly Invitational/Big Waaagh this July had 132 players. 18 of them were DoC armies (WE had the 2nd most armies with 16).

The top DoC player came in 10th.

Doesn't seem to be that broken an army list. Or were all 18 players retarded & not just me?

i can not find results online (and even older results don t show the army..), but i would like to take a look at them!

i assume you are talking about battle results, and not some overall one? (Hillbilly has painting?)

here is an example:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=ptK_3v8QrmvWaZ5XDLdNuVQ
(notice how the 22nd overall daemon army tied battlepoints of the second placed dwarfes..)

Crower
03-09-2008, 07:23
Hes talking about overall..

Daemons Got the Best General price at hillbilly afaik (As u can see in battle reports..).

Daemos are *The* army atm, no one can say otherwise.

Deetwo
03-09-2008, 07:56
Greater Daemons obey beast lore (and oh boy how fun it is to Beast Cowers the 600+ point monster waiting to beat your face in)
Regenerating Nurgle blocks that cost a zillion points can be ignored until everything is dead, and then multiple charged from the sides and rear (so noxious vapors has no effect).

It largely depends on the composition of the daemon army how you beat it. And it wildly varies between different lists.
But the main thing is, most demons are quite fragile, regardless of the ward save.

Little Aaad
03-09-2008, 08:17
Greater Daemons obey beast lore (and oh boy how fun it is to Beast Cowers the 600+ point monster waiting to beat your face in)
Regenerating Nurgle blocks that cost a zillion points can be ignored until everything is dead, and then multiple charged from the sides and rear (so noxious vapors has no effect).

It largely depends on the composition of the daemon army how you beat it. And it wildly varies between different lists.
But the main thing is, most demons are quite fragile, regardless of the ward save.

Shame DE dont have acess to this spell..

isidril93
03-09-2008, 08:47
a ward save will save 1/3 of the daemon army. as for heralds of nurgle killing blow and fire helps a lot.

Deetwo
03-09-2008, 09:01
Shame DE dont have acess to this spell..

You do have dreadlords that can take more punishment than a greater demon though :)

Storak
03-09-2008, 09:13
Greater Daemons obey beast lore (and oh boy how fun it is to Beast Cowers the 600+ point monster waiting to beat your face in)
Regenerating Nurgle blocks that cost a zillion points can be ignored until everything is dead, and then multiple charged from the sides and rear (so noxious vapors has no effect).

It largely depends on the composition of the daemon army how you beat it. And it wildly varies between different lists.
But the main thing is, most demons are quite fragile, regardless of the ward save.

well, actually you need to be lucky to pick the spell. and a daemon standard can make casting it pretty difficult.

and the guy carrying that standard will be the herald in the nurgle block. the one you want to leave alive till the very end.

EvC
03-09-2008, 10:59
Really? Which tournaments?

The ones where composition matter the least: in short, the UK tournaments. Here's a quick listing of the last 5 in the UK that I know of, July onwards:
1) Cardiff Carnage - Daemons 1st (no other placings)
2) Gathering of Might (You'll like this, the order is: Daemons, Wood Elves, Daemons, Daemons, Wood Elves, Daemons, Vampire Counts, Vampire Counts, Daemons, Skaven)
3) Toy Soldier (Daemons, Empire, Daemons, Vampire Counts, Daemons, Daemons, High Elves, Daemons, Vampire Counts, High Elves)
4) Panic! - Daemons 1st
5) Tides of Chaos - Daemons 1st

In case that isn't clear, that's Daemons winning each and every British tournament from one month after their release onwards. If there are any I've missed please fill me in, but let's have no-one else embarassing themselves and claiming that Daemons aren't top of the pile right now :)

Storak
03-09-2008, 11:28
a ward save will save 1/3 of the daemon army. as for heralds of nurgle killing blow and fire helps a lot.

are you guys testing the advice you are giving? or at least doing some calculations?

i did, while on a walk. black orc hero with killing blow vs nurgle herald. you start the betting, i ll do the math for you, after i had some lunch..

Shamfrit
03-09-2008, 11:38
Nurgle Herald, because naturally the Blorc will go last and have no armour save against the Herald's attacks (or is it 6+?) In which case, a shield armed blorc with even LESS attacks and stupidly low weapon skill has NO chance of getting it off, if it even survives.

Mozzamanx
03-09-2008, 11:41
Plus the fact that Killing Blow is 1-per-army with Greenies, whereas every Nurgle Herald is that tough.

Crower
03-09-2008, 11:42
are you guys testing the advice you are giving? or at least doing some calculations?

i did, while on a walk. black orc hero with killing blow vs nurgle herald. you start the betting, i ll do the math for you, after i had some lunch..

..

atm, Daemons are *The* army. Its the army in the top. That`s it.

Considering that, its pretty obius that Daemons "Weakness" are not *********** hardcore.. bc, if the daemons had a *real* weakness, they wouldnt be the *1* army.

They are the *1* . so obiusly, they`r Weakness is not really clear / Game breaking ..


now, Considering all this info.. YES. Killing Blows / Flames are the best way u can deal with Nurgle heralds. And yes, Daemon army`s are *weak* to shooting.

yeah, simply shooting them ll not work.. and by just using some KBlow guys, u are not gonna beat theyr nurgle heralds with ease.... cause otherwise, they woulndt be the *1* !!!. but, yes, thats the *Best* way to deal with them, and theyr *Weakness*.

Lijacote
03-09-2008, 12:05
..

atm, Daemons are *The* army. Its the army in the top. That`s it.

Considering that, its pretty obius that Daemons "Weakness" are not *********** hardcore.. bc, if the daemons had a *real* weakness, they wouldnt be the *1* army.

They are the *1* . so obiusly, they`r Weakness is not really clear / Game breaking ..


now, Considering all this info.. YES. Killing Blows / Flames are the best way u can deal with Nurgle heralds. And yes, Daemon army`s are *weak* to shooting.

yeah, simply shooting them ll not work.. and by just using some KBlow guys, u are not gonna beat theyr nurgle heralds with ease.... cause otherwise, they woulndt be the *1* !!!. but, yes, thats the *Best* way to deal with them, and theyr *Weakness*.

Just because they're number 1 doesn't mean their weakness is negligible. Most of them are still frail, as not all of them are Plaguebearers or Heralds of Nurgle. Tzeentchian guys get 4+ wards, sure, but that's not really end-all-be-all since they're still S3/T3. Greater Daemons are tough, yes, but they're worth a lot of points too (well everything is relatively). Large Targets and so on.

Can Heralds of Nurgle even be Killing Blowed if they're on a Palanquin? I think they become US3. Even then, their base becomes even larger so you can allocate more attacks at them.

I don't think there's one single golden line of advice that you can follow. Change with the army.

Note that this post isn't saying daemons are not "NUMBER ONE!"

Crower
03-09-2008, 12:13
I have never said their weakness is negligible ;)

it was just and answer to those guys who keep saying that those are not weakness.. cause, *Yes* they are.

Storak
03-09-2008, 12:48
Nurgle Herald, because naturally the Blorc will go last and have no armour save against the Herald's attacks (or is it 6+?) In which case, a shield armed blorc with even LESS attacks and stupidly low weapon skill has NO chance of getting it off, if it even survives.

you are right.

killing blow can still be saved on 5+ ward. so the orc needs to hit 9 times, to kill the herald. (notice that 9 hits cause less than 4.5 wounds and with ward and regeneration, will not kill the herald..) this requires 13.5 attacks, that is 5 full turns of combat for a BO with 3 attacks.

the herald will hit back 15 times, hitting 7.5, 2.5 of which will autowound (poison). that is 5 wounds caused to the BO, before saves.

looks like he will need the best save he can get. that is 1+ (boar, heavy armour, enchanted shield), bringing him to 152 points. (the herald with noxious vapours is 140 points...

in this situation, the orc would kill the herald, which only does 1.7 wounds to him. not a good situation, as it takes 5 turns of combat (and a Ld test..) to barely win the fight. (and he will lose, when the herald rides a palanquin..)

the problem is, that all attempts to increase the number of attacks will reduce the save and lead to a dead orc. changing to a savage orc wont help either, as he has the same WS as the herald (can anyone explain why he has WS5 ???), so the situation will be even worse with him.

PS: well, you can call it a "weakness", that the herald "might die" to a tooled up char, build specifically to kill him. after 5 turns of combat. but perhaps "weakness" is NOT the best term for it?

Crower
03-09-2008, 13:39
Daemons Weaknesses. Thats the name of this thread.

The weakpoint of something, do NOT have to be, indeed, weak!!. its the weakest !!

If u are tryng to find the weak point of an awesome wall 4 example, it ll probable be a *strong* point.. just not as strong as the rest of the wall..

Thats the weakpoint of something..

Nurgle heralds last a lot.. why? its a high T(5) guy, with a 5+ ward save, AND regen. (oh well, and u attack last, slime trail..) but, what really makes him last, is the Regen. No regen => 50% job done.

What do u have against a multiple wounds, high t, and regen guy?

1- Flame.

if that fails, or u have not.

2- Killing Blows.

Thats it!

Also, we are talking abaut Daemons Weakness.. its not a topic about "Orcs Vs Daemons" !!! YES, orcs have little to do against nurgle.. but thats not the topic of this thread! u lack of flames, and a good Kblow unit... yeah, everyone can see why you have problems with nurgle heralds.. But, thats not the topic..

Lijacote
03-09-2008, 13:46
its not a topic about "Orcs Vs Daemons"

You're a bit over-excited aren't you, about this whole KB + flames thing?

Indirectly, this topic IS about Orcs VS Daemons. What is the daemonic weakness to Greenskins, is there one?

EvC
03-09-2008, 13:54
Snotlings. I killed a Bloodthrister with them on turn 2 yesterday.

Note: this post may be a lie.

Crower
03-09-2008, 13:55
Not really over-excited.. but i really cannot understand all this "thats not a weakness" game.. We all know daemons are hard to beat, we have just to deal with it, and try to use theyr *Weakness* to win... (yes.. it ll be hard. Even attackign to their weakpoints, they still been an awesome army. Thats why its the best atm.)

And, Storak is not saying that orcs cant deal with it, he is saying that, as orcs cant deal with it, no one can (as they cannot *attack* the weakpoint of something, there is no weakpoint!! ) ;)

anyway, it was not my intention to offend anyone, so srry if someone happens to feel ofended in any way.

Mozzamanx
03-09-2008, 14:01
Heralds are a case, aren't they. They are a support hero, as shown by their crazy powerful Locus abilities. Giving a unit Hatred? ASF?? Regeneration?!

And yet, they can still fight with the best of them. A tooled up hero, specifically designed to kill them, and probably costing more as a result, still comes to a fair fight. Sometimes, the Daemon still wins!

Storak
03-09-2008, 15:54
Not really over-excited.. but i really cannot understand all this "thats not a weakness" game.. We all know daemons are hard to beat, we have just to deal with it, and try to use theyr *Weakness* to win... (yes.. it ll be hard. Even attackign to their weakpoints, they still been an awesome army. Thats why its the best atm.)

i agree with this.


And, Storak is not saying that orcs cant deal with it, he is saying that, as orcs cant deal with it, no one can (as they cannot *attack* the weakpoint of something, there is no weakpoint!! ) ;)

i think you are misrepresenting me here. i do, of course argue from the perspective of the army i know best. but i did not make this conclusion. (it is a logical error...)

i asked a simple question: how to kill the herald?
he poses a real problem for my army. what i got, was general advice, that doesn t seem to work.

the organ gun was named against flamers. it turns out, it only will cause 2 wounds. dragon princes are another "weakness" of flamers. one super unit being the weakness of another one? (notice how flamers will perform pretty good against plaguebearers as well..)

S3 shooting was named. math shows, that it doesn t kill all that many daemons. it is worst for orcs, but if you think it is much better for other armies, i would like to see some math. (do S3 shooters get "their points back"?)

now if a BO struggles to deliver the "killing blow", most other heroes will as well. what do people have in mind, when they declare KB to be a weakness? a bloodthirster, wielding the axe of khorne?


anyway, it was not my intention to offend anyone, so srry if someone happens to feel ofended in any way.

no need to worry. i think you made your point clear enough. the problem is, that there are quite a lot of people around, who do NOT accept, that the daemons are very powerful. they really believe that they are pointing out REAL weaknesses.
the term is seriously misleading. if you tell players, that KB is the weakness of a herald of nurgle, they will try to attack him with KB. it will be a disaster, in most cases.

Malorian
03-09-2008, 16:21
It's pretty difficult to say if archery will make it's points back or not because there are so many other factors.

An army with a good amount of shooting will also be trying to march block, and once the opponent gets close units will move in to bait charges.

This is my math:

Core deamons and my glade guard are the same amount of points. So lets have 10 bloodletters vs 10 glade guard. (Bloodletters are the average toughness and speed)

The archers will be 35 inches away.

If archers go first:

They move up and shoot 10 arrows, 5 hit, 2.5 wound, 1.67 deamons die.

Bloodletters move up 10 inches (20 inches away)

Glade guard shoot 10 arrows, 5 hit, 2.5 wound, 1.67 deamons die.

Bloodletters move up 10 inches (10 inches away)

Glade guard move back 2.5 inches then 10 arrows, 6.67 hit, 4.44 wound, 2.96 deamons die.

Bloodletters move up 10 inches (2.5 inches away)

Glade guard shoot 10 arrows, 6.67 hit, 4.44 wound, 2.96 deamons die.

At this point there is 0.74 bloodletters left who would have to do well to win combat.

If bloodletters go first:

Bloodletters move up 10 inches (25 inches away)

Glade guard shoot 10 arrows, 5 hit, 2.5 wound, 1.67 deamons die.

Bloodletters move up 10 inches (15 inches away)

Glade guard shoot 10 arrows, 6.67 hit, 4.44 wound, 2.96 deamons die.

Bloodletters move up 10 inches (5 inches away)

Glade guard move back 0.1 inch shoot 10 arrows, 6.67 hit, 4.44 wound, 2.96 deamons die.

Bloodletters charge, glade guard stand and shoot with 10 arrows, 5 hit, 3.33 wound, 2.22 deamons die.

At this point there is 0.19 bloodletters left who would have to do well to win combat.


Now keep in mind this is using exact ranges and the perfect scenario, but it also didn't keep in mind that you would be trying to march block and slow them down, baiting units to slow them down, and focussing your fire to wipe out units and then flee from the one strong unit that does get to you.

So archery is a valid way to deal with deamons (at least for WE).

EvC
03-09-2008, 16:50
Yep, against the slowest and weakest Daemon unit in the book, the best and most mobile shooting in the entire game does well. Pity for the rest of the armies that suffer penalties for moving and shooting and don't get strength bonuses for short range :(

Moreover the point is, that while you've spent all game blasting away at a unit whose SOLE job in the army is to fill a core slot, the specials, rares and characters have been raping the rest of your army ;)

fubukii
03-09-2008, 16:55
Want to kill a nurgle herald or regenerating plaguebearers?

Cast pit of shades on them. not every single daemon army has the -2 to cast banner and if thy do yes it will be slightly annoying to get pit of shades off (altho i seen a game last week where a high arch mage still got the spell off a few times despite the -2)

go for the 5 dice Spell cast And you should be ok even with -2

Storak
03-09-2008, 17:25
So archery is a valid way to deal with deamons (at least for WE).

i think that few people would have had doubts about this conclusion.

but in general you are right. elven archery seems to perform pretty well in this scenario. it looks like the S3 shooting really is a special O&G problem.

i think the situation changes a little, when units get bigger, or you are faced with a multiple unit dilemma. (finish one, leading to overkill? 2 "remainder" units charging the same archer unit..)

Malorian
03-09-2008, 17:28
Yep, against the slowest and weakest Daemon unit in the book, the best and most mobile shooting in the entire game does well. Pity for the rest of the armies that suffer penalties for moving and shooting and don't get strength bonuses for short range :(

Moreover the point is, that while you've spent all game blasting away at a unit whose SOLE job in the army is to fill a core slot, the specials, rares and characters have been raping the rest of your army ;)

Bloodletters are not the slowest and are not the weakest. Of the four core deamons they average in the middle in these respects.

Several people actually argue that glade guarde are too many points for their worth. (I'm not one of them, I'm just making a point.)

Once you start bringing in other elements it get too complicated/impossible to calculate as too much depends on the lists, the terrain, and the tactics used.

Lijacote
03-09-2008, 19:13
Yep, against the slowest and weakest Daemon unit in the book, the best and most mobile shooting in the entire game does well. Pity for the rest of the armies that suffer penalties for moving and shooting and don't get strength bonuses for short range :(

Moreover the point is, that while you've spent all game blasting away at a unit whose SOLE job in the army is to fill a core slot, the specials, rares and characters have been raping the rest of your army ;)

Yup, m5 is totally useless. Will never reach anything. Thank Chaos we have flying bloodthirsters and movement 8 flesh hounds or we'd never reach anything. Never. Those 6 turns? Pfft.

ROCKY
03-09-2008, 20:52
Ironically i just made an army list to utilize how FAST daemons can move lol. oh and how about them fiends wth 4 s4 attacks armor piercing that can charge 20inches and have 3wounds each, and how is a charge of 10inches small? not to mention bloodletters usually carry an icon to boost movement, and yes t3 sucks but a 5+ward save does work of 5 wounds i can save 2-3. so meh if 10 bloodletters make it to combat its gonna hurt, and daemonettes move faster than elves, and flesh hounds, furies, mounted daemonnettes etc.

isidril93
03-09-2008, 21:00
are you guys testing the advice you are giving? or at least doing some calculations?

i did, while on a walk. black orc hero with killing blow vs nurgle herald. you start the betting, i ll do the math for you, after i had some lunch..

1/3 is obvious cos 5,6=1/3 possibility

black orc hero will be very strong. unless theherald has that noxious vapor. if he does try to use chariots as impact hits strike first.

with brettonians i suggest taking fire arrows if you are facing nurgle (although that is obvious).

an assasin with killing blow might be able to kill it. remember that not everyone takes noxious vapor and not everyone takes nurgle units. chaos is after all the only army to have players hating 1/2 of his army. remember that its not like other armies. these are devoted to gods and are completely different so unless your opponent really wants to win or likes nurgle then chances are you might not be facing a nurgle herald.

Urgat
03-09-2008, 22:18
Snotlings. I killed a Bloodthrister with them on turn 2 yesterday.

Note: this post may be a lie.

Well, I won a fight (well, a round) against bloodletters with my snotlings about 11 years ago (and that's not a lie), so there might be some light in your post!
After all, there's little that changes, you just replace let by thirst. Trivial difference, really.

Storak
03-09-2008, 23:34
1/3 is obvious cos 5,6=1/3 possibility

i don t understand this point.


black orc hero will be very strong. unless theherald has that noxious vapor. if he does try to use chariots as impact hits strike first.

the BO will NOT be very strong. actually, he will die, if he does not have a specific equipment (max armour, including enchanted shield..).

the herald WILL have noxious vapours. although it doesn t make such a big difference in a 5 turn fight.
if it hasn t noxious vapours, it will do additional damage to the unit attacking it, most likely.

impact hits are a horrible idea. 4 S5 hits will typically have ZERO effect on plaguebearers. ( 0.89 wounds..) and the chariot is stuck afterwards.

it is this type of advice that i had in mind, when i asked whether people are testing their ideas...


an assasin with killing blow might be able to kill it.

lots of options with an assassin. any idea what layout would kill the herald, before he kills him? (T3, no save..) the assassin will be dead in turn 2. i don t see, how he will kill the herald before that..


remember that not everyone takes noxious vapor and not everyone takes nurgle units. chaos is after all the only army to have players hating 1/2 of his army. remember that its not like other armies. these are devoted to gods and are completely different so unless your opponent really wants to win or likes nurgle then chances are you might not be facing a nurgle herald.

the nurgle block is a strong choice, especially with those potent banners that daemons can use.
i can see strong lists, without a nurgle block. but many army will have it, or be even worse..

SlaaneshSlave
04-09-2008, 03:02
The ones where composition matter the least: in short, the UK tournaments. Here's a quick listing of the last 5 in the UK that I know of, July onwards:
1) Cardiff Carnage - Daemons 1st (no other placings)
2) Gathering of Might (You'll like this, the order is: Daemons, Wood Elves, Daemons, Daemons, Wood Elves, Daemons, Vampire Counts, Vampire Counts, Daemons, Skaven)
3) Toy Soldier (Daemons, Empire, Daemons, Vampire Counts, Daemons, Daemons, High Elves, Daemons, Vampire Counts, High Elves)
4) Panic! - Daemons 1st
5) Tides of Chaos - Daemons 1st

Thank you for actual examples. It is interesting.

My personal experience was that I only lost 1 game with my Demons in the first 3 months after the new book. In the last month, I've been running 50/50.

I still massacre opponents that I've never played before. But my standard opponents have caught on to my tricks. This makes me biased to thinking the DoC book has a larger "new book" syndrome & it is taking longer for opponents to learn how to play against them.

Makes me wonder how long the Demons will keep winning tournaments.

Storak
04-09-2008, 09:11
Thank you for actual examples. It is interesting.

My personal experience was that I only lost 1 game with my Demons in the first 3 months after the new book. In the last month, I've been running 50/50.

I still massacre opponents that I've never played before. But my standard opponents have caught on to my tricks. This makes me biased to thinking the DoC book has a larger "new book" syndrome & it is taking longer for opponents to learn how to play against them.

Makes me wonder how long the Demons will keep winning tournaments.

hm, i am unconvinced. don t you think that one or two players might have done a couple of sparring matches against daemon armies before?

my feeling is, that a look at the daemon army book, game experience and the tournaments are enough evidence, that it is an extremely strong army book.

ROCKY
04-09-2008, 10:05
Demons armies have loads of playstyles and thats one of the aspects that lead them to win. but as units go, like all other armies they have some good troops and some crappy ones but the difference is that now u can include all marks and gods in one army thus more flexible lists. for instance someone can run an all fast moving army, and still outgun most armies with flamers. or blast day and night with tzeentch yet have khorne bloodletters and heralds own the CC phase.

MrBigMr
04-09-2008, 10:21
I have to agree most on the low T, low Sv. (1/3 chance to save, so only 1 in 3 rolls passes), etc. do make the daemons vulnerable to massed armounts of blows. Mainly my tactic would be to deal as much hits on them as possible. Expensive models and low model count also mean that you might often win on static CR alone, which forces the daemons to roll for instability. You can never play to try and over run them or anything. That doesn't work. You just have to endure longer than they do. The Ward save is their curse (hell, even greater daemons only have the ward, apart from Khorne daemons), but also makes them rather resilient. I've had daemons hold out in battles any lesser unit would have yielded a long time ago. Also, apart from Khorne, daemons lack serious punch in CC. S3, S4 doesn't bode well agains high save/T armies.


I still miss the old days of daemonic puff. It made things interesting when a goblin block could destroy a whole daemon unit twice its worth in points simply by luck of the draw and static CR alone.

I run a rather menial daemon army. Pure Slaanesh with a DP general. Used to be Exalted in SoC just for the cheaper cost. I never really had massive wins or losses (massacre), but a steady stream of minor and major victories/defeats. Some draws even. With the DoC book, my record has centered even more around draws.

Probably my own fault for having a fluffy army of pure Slaaneshi speed freaks (M10 is just so goody) with a DP lead instead of going the way of the momentary fab of daemon circus and GD for all. If they ever make armies more mono-god in the future, I shall laugh and point at anyone who comes to cry "but mah daemons...", just like they have laughed and pointed at my army ever since DoC came out. Revenge shall be bitter sweet and served with the tears of those that were blinded by the win.

EvC
04-09-2008, 10:43
Bloodletters are not the slowest and are not the weakest. Of the four core deamons they average in the middle in these respects.

Okay, Plaguebearers are slower (I think?!) but have T4 and usually regeneration. Do the maths for them and see how you fare. In terms of toughness and speed Bloodletters are the worst of the bunch (Daemonettes only just pipping them through virtue of M6) and certainly give the best impression of fragility, though.


Thank you for actual examples. It is interesting.

My personal experience was that I only lost 1 game with my Demons in the first 3 months after the new book. In the last month, I've been running 50/50.

I still massacre opponents that I've never played before. But my standard opponents have caught on to my tricks. This makes me biased to thinking the DoC book has a larger "new book" syndrome & it is taking longer for opponents to learn how to play against them.

Makes me wonder how long the Demons will keep winning tournaments.

It is an an interesting question. Personally I'm happy every time I hear of a good balanced army winning a big tournament (Like a wonderful Lizardmen army taking the last big Aussie tournament). I actually dislike Daemons hugely because from 7 games against them my best result has been a draw, but looking back I think if the dice had been anywhere approaching average it'd probably be 5 wins to me, so maybe they don't deserve my scorn... but there is nothing more annoying than killing a single Horror from 20 bow (inc. RBT) shots, or having a Vampire Lord crumble after an opponent passed 8 ward saves in a row for his Daemonettes (whilst failing my own better wards of course). I agree that "new army book syndrome" is a big factor, it's similar with Vampire Counts, the number of times I've had opponents charge my undead troops with a single unit knowing that the enemy will win the first round of combat and then be swamped is just crazy- but people will learn.

Malorian
04-09-2008, 12:23
EvC:

Three out of the four deamons are T3 (seems average to me).

Out of the four deamons one is M4, one is M6, and two are M5 (seems average to me).

So no more comments of "In terms of toughness and speed Bloodletters are the worst of the bunch".

And I can do the math but there would be more archers as you're assuming a herald of nurgle is in the unit.

SirA
04-09-2008, 14:34
some armies just cant match DoC - thats my optinion..

;)

EvC
04-09-2008, 15:14
EvC:

Three out of the four deamons are T3 (seems average to me).

Out of the four deamons one is M4, one is M6, and two are M5 (seems average to me).

So no more comments of "In terms of toughness and speed Bloodletters are the worst of the bunch".

Plaguebearers: T4, M4 (Potential for Regeneration)
Bloodletters: T3, M5 (Potential for +D6" charge range)
Horrors: T3, M5 (Potential for 4+ ward save)
Daemonettes: T3, M6

There's not much difference between the movement and toughnesses of the units, true. But Bloodletters get the worst possible toughness with no possible boosts, and they have the second lowest movement, with a boost for charging. Also bearing in mind that the Horrors would be blasting back the Archers some of the time, which makes them more likely to come out on top. It is indisputable, in any meaningful discussion of how effective shooting is, a unit of Bloodletters will give the shooter the best possible results. Daemonettes would probably fare almost as badly, of course...

Malorian
04-09-2008, 16:44
[QUOTE=EvC;2920776]But Bloodletters get the worst possible toughness with no possible boosts, and they have the second lowest movement, with a boost for charging. QUOTE]

It's not like all the deamons have better toughness. They are the same as everyone except for one, and are also the second fastest unit.

Gladeguard will beat out bloodletters.

Gladeguard will lose to ultra resilient Plaguebearers.

Glade guard against horrors really depends on the magic situation but have the advantage of range and dependability.

Glade guard will on average lose against Daemonettes, but the Daemonettes take a lot of loses (Obviously the archers do a lot better if they go first).


And again it comes down to more than we can calculate here because there would be a lot more going on. The archer team would be march blocking and the deamons would have other faster units.

The only thing we can say for sure is that archers are a fairly good buy against deamon core.

fubukii
04-09-2008, 17:09
Plaguebearers: T4, M4 (Potential for Regeneration)
Bloodletters: T3, M5 (Potential for +D6" charge range)
Horrors: T3, M5 (Potential for 4+ ward save)
Daemonettes: T3, M6

There's not much difference between the movement and toughnesses of the units, true. But Bloodletters get the worst possible toughness with no possible boosts, and they have the second lowest movement, with a boost for charging. Also bearing in mind that the Horrors would be blasting back the Archers some of the time, which makes them more likely to come out on top. It is indisputable, in any meaningful discussion of how effective shooting is, a unit of Bloodletters will give the shooter the best possible results. Daemonettes would probably fare almost as badly, of course...

Evc horrors are movement 4 not 5, minor difference but i just thought that should be corrected.

isidril93
04-09-2008, 20:14
i don t understand this point.



the BO will NOT be very strong. actually, he will die, if he does not have a specific equipment (max armour, including enchanted shield..).

the herald WILL have noxious vapours. although it doesn t make such a big difference in a 5 turn fight.
if it hasn t noxious vapours, it will do additional damage to the unit attacking it, most likely.

impact hits are a horrible idea. 4 S5 hits will typically have ZERO effect on plaguebearers. ( 0.89 wounds..) and the chariot is stuck afterwards.

it is this type of advice that i had in mind, when i asked whether people are testing their ideas...

lots of options with an assassin. any idea what layout would kill the herald, before he kills him? (T3, no save..) the assassin will be dead in turn 2. i don t see, how he will kill the herald before that..


for the 1/3 part that is basic maths. 5,6 are 1/3 of the rolls so 1/3 of the wounds will be saved.

2 chariots hitting on a flank have the potential to do damage especially white lion chariots and cold one chariots. they resist fear, cause impact hits 8-10 (with 2) and have some good attacks. CO char are tougher but WL are stronger.

as for assasins touch of death, rune of khaine, hand of khaine and add hand weapon are a good combo. the assasin might attack last but the herald has only 2 attacks the herald does not have that great a chance of killing him. the assasin has 5-7 killing blow attacks. with hatred, poison and killing blow odds are that you will kill the herald.

also most nurgle heralds will be used as BSB as they are the best BSB daemons have to offer and so would be really expensive is they took noxious vapors. you then have a 220+ models that is in a 200+ unit. that mkaes the whole army weaker especially is they have a greater daemon or daemon prince.

Mozzamanx
04-09-2008, 20:44
I'm fairly sure Nurgle Heralds have 3 attacks, and at least 80% has an extra 6 from the Palanquin. 9 Poison attacks= a very dead Assasin.

Yes the Nurgle brick is expensive, but there's not a whole lot you can do to actually kill it.

Storak
04-09-2008, 21:28
for the 1/3 part that is basic maths. 5,6 are 1/3 of the rolls so 1/3 of the wounds will be saved.

sorry, i just didn t know why you told me this. it is very obvious.


2 chariots hitting on a flank have the potential to do damage especially white lion chariots and cold one chariots. they resist fear, cause impact hits 8-10 (with 2) and have some good attacks. CO char are tougher but WL are stronger.

those 9 impact hits at S5 would only kill 2 the attacks of the dark elves and beasts will do about another 1.6 wounds. the chariots are stuck afterwards and will do 1.3 wounds in following turns. with flanking bonus, being outnumbered and facing a musician, they will lose, when the plaguebearers manage to cuase a wound against one puny elf...

and i don t know, why he would allow 2 (TWO?!?) chariots to charge the flank of the unit...


as for assasins touch of death, rune of khaine, hand of khaine and add hand weapon are a good combo. the assasin might attack last but the herald has only 2 attacks the herald does not have that great a chance of killing him. the assasin has 5-7 killing blow attacks. with hatred, poison and killing blow odds are that you will kill the herald.

well, your assassin costs 171 points, the herald only 140. add the nurglings to the herald, and the assassin is dead.

when you reduce his attacks to 2, you have a 1/3 chance to survive the second turn of combat and a high chance of "killblowing" him..

very expensive combo, but obviously one of the few things that might work. when he isn t riding the palanquin..


also most nurgle heralds will be used as BSB as they are the best BSB daemons have to offer and so would be really expensive is they took noxious vapors. you then have a 220+ models that is in a 200+ unit. that mkaes the whole army weaker especially is they have a greater daemon or daemon prince.

he will take noxious vapours, to protect the standard. i would be pretty surprised, to see one without.

i find the nurgle block to be extremely useful. he will protect the flanks of advancing parts, and provide a corner stone to rest your army on.
a unit of black orcs will be slightly more expensive. and a black orc BSB will be the same price as well.

the nurgle block is obviously very good value for the points.

Lijacote
04-09-2008, 23:14
Plaguebearers: T4, M4 (Potential for Regeneration)
Bloodletters: T3, M5 (Potential for +D6" charge range)
Horrors: T3, M5 (Potential for 4+ ward save)
Daemonettes: T3, M6


Horrors turn into stains in combat if they meet a serious foe, see: lack of weapon skill and strength. 4+ saves aren't that great when you think about it, you know... goblins with hand weapons and shields have a 4+ save against horror combat. Daemonettes can't punch through serious armour. Plaguebearers don't do that either. What are you trying to accomplish here?



There's not much difference between the movement and toughnesses of the units, true. But Bloodletters get the worst possible toughness with no possible boosts, and they have the second lowest movement, with a boost for charging. Also bearing in mind that the Horrors would be blasting back the Archers some of the time, which makes them more likely to come out on top. It is indisputable, in any meaningful discussion of how effective shooting is, a unit of Bloodletters will give the shooter the best possible results. Daemonettes would probably fare almost as badly, of course...

Daemonettes, movement 6
Bloodletters, movement 5 and charge movement bonus from Icon
Plaguebearers, movement 4
Horrors movement, 4

I think you see the problem here. I don't get why you're complaining*.

There's different kinds of core daemons for a reason.

*EDIT: I see you think Horrors have moment 5. You are mistaken.

EvC
05-09-2008, 15:29
Heh, wouldn't it be nice if GW got off their ass and actually put a reference sheet for Daemons up on their website?

What I'm trying to achieve here is just to point out that when comparing the utility of concept X against Daemons in general, it is not especially useful to cherry-pick what opposing unit they're going up against in your comparison. As Malorian said: they'll beat Bloodletters, but not Plaguebearers or Daemonettes, and against Horrors it would come down to how good the Daemon player rolled for magic. So to do a bit of maths-hammer in a vacuum featuring the best basic shooting unit in the game against the most susceptible Daemon unit in the army book, is not really going to give the most balanced examination.

Try High Elf Archers vs Daemonettes... funny thing is when that situation actually came up in-game with me, the shooting was nearly worthless, but the Archers whooped them in combat thanks to the genius that is Speed of Asuryan :D

ROCKY
05-09-2008, 21:08
Heh, wouldn't it be nice if GW got off their ass and actually put a reference sheet for Daemons up on their website?

What I'm trying to achieve here is just to point out that when comparing the utility of concept X against Daemons in general, it is not especially useful to cherry-pick what opposing unit they're going up against in your comparison. As Malorian said: they'll beat Bloodletters, but not Plaguebearers or Daemonettes, and against Horrors it would come down to how good the Daemon player rolled for magic. So to do a bit of maths-hammer in a vacuum featuring the best basic shooting unit in the game against the most susceptible Daemon unit in the army book, is not really going to give the most balanced examination.

Try High Elf Archers vs Daemonettes... funny thing is when that situation actually came up in-game with me, the shooting was nearly worthless, but the Archers whooped them in combat thanks to the genius that is Speed of Asuryan :D

they didnt have a herad with them?

isidril93
06-09-2008, 11:03
sorry, i just didn t know why you told me this. it is very obvious.



those 9 impact hits at S5 would only kill 2 the attacks of the dark elves and beasts will do about another 1.6 wounds. the chariots are stuck afterwards and will do 1.3 wounds in following turns. with flanking bonus, being outnumbered and facing a musician, they will lose, when the plaguebearers manage to cuase a wound against one puny elf...

and i don t know, why he would allow 2 (TWO?!?) chariots to charge the flank of the unit...



well, your assassin costs 171 points, the herald only 140. add the nurglings to the herald, and the assassin is dead.

when you reduce his attacks to 2, you have a 1/3 chance to survive the second turn of combat and a high chance of "killblowing" him..

very expensive combo, but obviously one of the few things that might work. when he isn t riding the palanquin..



he will take noxious vapours, to protect the standard. i would be pretty surprised, to see one without.

i find the nurgle block to be extremely useful. he will protect the flanks of advancing parts, and provide a corner stone to rest your army on.
a unit of black orcs will be slightly more expensive. and a black orc BSB will be the same price as well.

the nurgle block is obviously very good value for the points.

1)because you said 'i dont understand this point' which basically means that i didnt explain it well

2)a nurgle herald cost 140 with just the vapor. if he is a standard bearer he will take a magic standard of 50-120 pts, if he takes a palaquin that will cost 50pts and allow more models to strike him (such as tallaris or a champion etc..) and if he takes a magic level which he might to increase his magic defence. thus you have ONE very expensive model.

3)2 attacks hitting on 4+ will mean that he will miss one attack and the whole point is for your assasin to kill him on turn 1 of the attack. if he accompanies a unit of executioners then kills will stack up. also a death hag with some other combos will definenly strike the herald down when done in co-ordination with the assasin.

veilwalker
20-09-2008, 12:49
Does the spell Beast Cowers affect Greater Daemons?

A similar magic talisman, Rune of the True Beast, no longer affects Greater Daemons because they are also characters, does this mean that Beast Cowers follows the same "logic"?

I have a Legendary Battle coming up and one of the opponents is bringing 1 of each of the 4 Greater Daemons. So, if Beast Cowers does not affect them then I may be in a bit of trouble, as I run a Beastman list which really doesn't have much that can stand up to Daemons.

SirA
20-09-2008, 14:16
it very much depends on what you agree upon..
i've played tournaments where it did and other where it did not affect GD
you should determine this prior to your game..

SolarHammer
20-09-2008, 20:02
There is no reason for it not to.

SirA
20-09-2008, 22:22
well there must be. otherwise the rule wouldnt be used in several high-profile tournaments ;)

just as mentioned before.. GD being characters and not a lone or ridden monster might be enough in this case too..
i am not sure if we are "qualified" enough to jugde this question, all you'll get is an opinion and as we see right now opinoins differ..

SolarHammer
20-09-2008, 22:25
Ok, by the rules, as they are written, there is no reason not to.

By people reading too much into a totally unrelated FAQ answer, there is plenty of reason to I guess...:eyebrows:

Peer pressure is rarely a good reason to do something, as the mob mentality is notoriously fickle.

Gork or Possibly Mork
21-09-2008, 07:08
Re:Orcs vs. Daemons. I play mainly with Orcs&Goblins and was trying to figure out a reliable way to kill those pesky Nurgle heralds. Im really bad at mathhammer but do you guys think this would work?

A. Send these guys in on a suicide mission to kill the Nurgle herald BSB

GoblinBigBoss on Giant Spider+TriksyTriket+Wollopa's one hit wunda=115 pts.
SavageOrcBigBoss on Boar+ Sword of Battle+ Iron Gnasha'a=136 pts.
GoblinBB: 3 WS4 S10 attacks+ Giant Spider: 3 WS3 S4 poisoned attacks
SavageOrcBB: 5 WS5 S4 Killing Blow attacks.+ Boar: 2 WS3 S5 attacks

If they don't kill him though it's a waste. but with no wardsave, and having to deal with all those attacks killing blow, poison etc. Chances are they will get atleast 2 wounds to the Nurgle BSB that won't get saved before going down in a glorious death.

B. Then maybe send these guys in to clean up the next turn or if possible the same turn if you can flank them. Along with the rest or the army.
5 Savage Orc BoarBoyz+Full Command+Spear+Shield+Bigun's+Nogg's Banner=228 pts.

Probably not the best strategy but I concur with who ever said "If your not sacrificing your orcs and gobbo's for the greater green
your playing them wrong"....or something like that. Lol

Storak
21-09-2008, 09:09
Re:Orcs vs. Daemons. I play mainly with Orcs&Goblins and was trying to figure out a reliable way to kill those pesky Nurgle heralds. Im really bad at mathhammer but do you guys think this would work?

A. Send these guys in on a suicide mission to kill the Nurgle herald BSB

GoblinBigBoss on Giant Spider+TriksyTriket+Wollopa's one hit wunda=115 pts.
SavageOrcBigBoss on Boar+ Sword of Battle+ Iron Gnasha'a=136 pts.
GoblinBB: 3 WS4 S10 attacks+ Giant Spider: 3 WS3 S4 poisoned attacks
SavageOrcBB: 5 WS5 S4 Killing Blow attacks.+ Boar: 2 WS3 S5 attacks

If they don't kill him though it's a waste. but with no wardsave, and having to deal with all those attacks killing blow, poison etc. Chances are they will get atleast 2 wounds to the Nurgle BSB that won't get saved before going down in a glorious death.

B. Then maybe send these guys in to clean up the next turn or if possible the same turn if you can flank them. Along with the rest or the army.
5 Savage Orc BoarBoyz+Full Command+Spear+Shield+Bigun's+Nogg's Banner=228 pts.

Probably not the best strategy but I concur with who ever said "If your not sacrificing your orcs and gobbo's for the greater green
your playing them wrong"....or something like that. Lol

i did some math on this topic before.

the problem with the gobbo is, that he has a high chance to die, before he can attack (or even keep the herald from taking a ward save..).
the herald will do 1.3+ (it is difficult to factor in poison..) BEFORE the O&G are ready to strike (noxious vapours). if the herald is riding a palanquin, the gobbo can be assumed dead on arrival.

and the daemons are going to win the combat (whether the herald was killed or not,....), autobreaking whatever is left from the O&G assault....

StanMcKim
22-09-2008, 16:38
I am a daemon player. I have the block of 20 plaguebearers with the Herald BSB. You know how you beat it? Combat res. Maneuver into position and get the front and flank charge. I can't flee, and I'm not going to kill enough to negate your ranks and all that jazz. All of a sudden my unit is shrinking, depending on how bad I get beat, quite drastically each turn. You don't beat deameons by killing them, you beat them but making them disappear.
Bloodletters are pretty easy. Shoot the hell out of them. When they get close, sacrifice a small unit (Goblins, militia, zombies, whatever) to put them out of place with the over run. They'll take a turn or two to come about while you get a couple dozen free shots at them.
Greater Daemons are tricky to deal with but thats only right and proper for what you pay for them. It's even tricker when they're as maneuverable as the bloodthirster or Lord of Change. I really don't have much of an answer on this one.
I use a unit of 6 flamers in my army. They are really good. However, magic missiles have done a fair amount of damage to them, as well as skink blowpipes. So, maybe thats something to think about.
Anyhoo, thats some insight from a daemon player!
-Stan

Lord Dan
22-09-2008, 16:45
Weaknesses?

Me.

EvC
22-09-2008, 17:13
I am a daemon player. I have the block of 20 plaguebearers with the Herald BSB. You know how you beat it? Combat res. Maneuver into position and get the front and flank charge.

Out of interest, does this usually work well against you? Have many players actually managed to hit your unit from both sides and then kill it? I've seen players pull off wonderful similar charges- and then next turn in comes the Flesh hounds or the Greater Daemon...

Storak
22-09-2008, 17:33
I am a daemon player. I have the block of 20 plaguebearers with the Herald BSB. You know how you beat it? Combat res. Maneuver into position and get the front and flank charge. I can't flee, and I'm not going to kill enough to negate your ranks and all that jazz. All of a sudden my unit is shrinking, depending on how bad I get beat, quite drastically each turn. You don't beat deameons by killing them, you beat them but making them disappear.

the unit in the flank didn t include a BSB with the high elf +D6 combat res battle banner by chance?

the advantage should be +4 (outnumber and full ranks, no flank bonus because of gift) against BSB (+1) and better combat performance (+1? +2?)

attacker will win combat by 1 or 2, leaving you to reroll against Ld6 or 7. at the end of the day, your opponent is lucky, when combat res kills a SINGLE daemon!

kramplarv
22-09-2008, 17:41
herald of nurgle, palanquin, Standard of Chaos glory, slime trail,. vapours in a unit of 20 plagueberars are one hard ****.

no flank/rearbonuses when charging, means that a +5 unit charing in the flank receives only +3 Combatres in total. before kills. Or, only +2 if the charing units is smaller than US24. And if that nasty herald of bsb is standing one one flank... then almost certain will the charging unit loose and autobreak.

Storak
22-09-2008, 17:59
herald of nurgle, palanquin, Standard of Chaos glory, slime trail,. vapours in a unit of 20 plagueberars are one hard ****.

no flank/rearbonuses when charging, means that a +5 unit charing in the flank receives only +3 Combatres in total. before kills. Or, only +2 if the charing units is smaller than US24. And if that nasty herald of bsb is standing one one flank... then almost certain will the charging unit loose and autobreak.

uhm, a herald unit with the stubborn banner will actually nearly NEVER take any combat res casualties.

so i guess we should assume that he is using another banner:

hellfire: ouch. those S6 hit can seriously hurt your flankers and most likely will reduce your rank bonus...

despair: good luck getting that combined charge in, testing against Ld 5 or 6...

unholy victory: +D3 combat res will cause the attackers to LOSE the combat!

so sundering it is then...

steeler556
23-09-2008, 04:11
IIRC there is an FAQ/errata regarding the Beast Cowers vs characters who are monsters...basically states that the characters have more intelligence than a monster and thusly are not affected by such magic items.

SolarHammer
23-09-2008, 04:17
You do not remember correctly. The Beast Cowers is a spell. The FAQ only refers to the Rune of the True Beast (which is a magic item).

steeler556
23-09-2008, 12:28
Ah yes, thank-you for the correction, I found it in the Beastmen FAQ. Reading it over, the last sentence of the response covers this situation (although GW has not stated it officially)..."A monsterous creature is assumed to have the strength of mind and willpower to resist these sorts of things, while most other monsters are mindless and instinctual in behaviour."
Likely explains why the UK GT's don't permit the spell to work on monsterous creatures in their sanctioned tournaments.

EvC
23-09-2008, 12:46
Well, that was last year, when Greater Daemons could also join units of ranked infantry, because their rules didn't say they follow all the rules for monsters. The Beasts of Chaos FAQ relates only to that specific magic item and to be honest it's a duff ruling; every tournament I've been to since the release of Daemons has agreed that they're affected by Beast Cowers. And let's face it, it helps balance them a teeny bit by having them affected. This year the r****** will be done by a very reasonable group of players who have always ruled that Greater Daemons can be cowered, so expect that ruling to be in effect this year.

Incidentally I have yet to see a Daemon player question whether they could use "The Wolf Hunts" on a Greater Daemon, when the same principle applies...

Shaunzy
25-09-2008, 05:13
Being easy to kill is one of my main discouragements for playing a daemon army.
But I'm going to try it out anyways.

Bob the Butcher
25-09-2008, 20:58
Daemons are very tough in my experience.

Some tips
Try to get flank/rear and front charges as you would use against any ranked unit.
Attempt to kill the Heralds which give the Daemon unit extra bonuses.
Flamers charge with multiple units or blow them away with shooting/magic.
Core rank and file tend to be slowish so try to out maneuver them.
Korne try to bait and flee and then flank them.
Daemonettes are T3 so hit them hard with missiles/magic.
Use the Magic Lore of Light. The default spell does 1d6 Str 6 hits Flaming attack which gets past Regen saves.

him_15
27-09-2008, 04:59
according to my experience against Daemon, the only thing that I really fear is the fresh hound...I just can't think of a way to deal with it, almost no weakness at all, I wouldn't play anyone who bring on 3 unit of fresh hound on the table top.

fubukii
27-09-2008, 17:24
according to my experience against Daemon, the only thing that I really fear is the fresh hound...I just can't think of a way to deal with it, almost no weakness at all, I wouldn't play anyone who bring on 3 unit of fresh hound on the table top.

shoot them, they are still somewhat pricey point wise (35 isnt cheap) and they are lackking in the Save department. Of course A sdingle unit of 5 hounds will have trouble beating infantry units 1on1 but what daemon player charges 1 unit into 1 unit :)

Palomarus
29-09-2008, 02:23
I have given this topic a lot of consideration...and have come across their one TRUE weakness!!!

They are so powerful and easy to run...they will create tons of lazy and unskilled Generals!!

So now all we have to do is wait for them to try out another army...and BAM!! we will run the table on them!!! : )

VC Doke
29-09-2008, 04:02
Here's one plan I have for beating the block of 20 plaguebearers with the Herald BSB in my 2k VC Army. Keep the Necromancer behind to summon more Guard.

Unit of 17 Grave Guard with full command and six wide. Slap the Banner of Hellfire to give them flaming attacks. Throw the Wight King in with a battle standard for resolution, Sword of Kings and Gem of Blood.

Killing blow on 5+, flaming attacks with a 2+ rebounding wound never felt so good.

Can I get some math on this sucker?

Here's the point value:
Unit of 17 GG = 244
Wight King = 150
(optional) Necro = 55
Total: 449

urien
29-09-2008, 09:01
and her's a little something about demons and vampires strenght in tournaments...


it's a situation after 3 battles - in a 5 battle tournaments- 2250 points, nationwide tournament in Poland, called Arena,




1 Dariusz Butanowicz VC
2 Darek Polit Demony
3 Tomek Hądzlik Demony
4 Adam Lewański Demony
5 Tomasz Szwedow VC
6 Maciej Dziopak Demony
7 Sebastian Daszkiewicz Demony
8 Bartłomiej Fedyczak VC
9 Kuba Jankowski DE
10 Piotr Holanowski VC
11 Michał Szczepaniak DE
12 Tomasz Miszta WE
13 Bartosz Białowąs Demony
14 Maciej Moryc WE
15 Filip Grecki Skaven
16 Robert Mrozek VC
17 Piotr Nowak Empire
18 Aleksander Preiss Demony
19 Krystian Krych DE
20 Wojciech Łubkowski DE

see the trend in here??

all the good players that were usually in top 10 , but play other armies are behind,

after 5 battles, not official mind you, situation looked like this :


. 1. Malal demons
2. Butan VC
3. Darek demons
4. Cosmo Skaven
5. Dębek Bretonnia
6. Duke demons


other deamons just slaughteredeach other for the top places and thats why other armies had a chance to gain more points...

to me Such armies like VC an DC should not be allowed to exist in such a shpe as now...


so the summary of nationwide tournaments since the dawn of Demons looks like this

"Master Blaster 2008:
1. Vampire Counts
2. Vampire Counts
3. Daemons of Chaos

WIELKI DRACON:
1. Daemons of Chaos
2. Daemons of Chaos
3. Daemons of Chaos

ARENA

1. Daemons of Chaos
2. Vampire Counts
3. Daemons of Chaos "


ps- taken from polish forums...

steeler556
29-09-2008, 16:17
hmmm, here's another interesting magic item, the Orc & Goblin "collar of Zorga" would that work on Greater Deamons as well?


Well, that was last year, when Greater Daemons could also join units of ranked infantry, because their rules didn't say they follow all the rules for monsters. The Beasts of Chaos FAQ relates only to that specific magic item and to be honest it's a duff ruling; every tournament I've been to since the release of Daemons has agreed that they're affected by Beast Cowers. And let's face it, it helps balance them a teeny bit by having them affected. This year the r****** will be done by a very reasonable group of players who have always ruled that Greater Daemons can be cowered, so expect that ruling to be in effect this year.

Incidentally I have yet to see a Daemon player question whether they could use "The Wolf Hunts" on a Greater Daemon, when the same principle applies...

Malorian
29-09-2008, 16:40
You bet the collar of zorga would work, although with rerolls due to hatred your character is probably still screwed...

DarkRush21
01-10-2008, 06:08
My friend, who plays the Daemons, says the easiest way to kill them is mass amounts of shooting. How effective is this? (I have yet to play his Daemons with my High Elves!)

fubukii
01-10-2008, 09:22
very effective due to mostly t3/4 troops with iffy saves.

Also cannons and the like kill greater daemons very easily

MrBigMr
01-10-2008, 09:32
My friend, who plays the Daemons, says the easiest way to kill them is mass amounts of shooting. How effective is this? (I have yet to play his Daemons with my High Elves!)
More or less. In one game a WE lord shot some magic arrow that almost annihilated a unit of 'nettes (caused like 15 hits or something). But my daemons aren't that troubled by shooting. I've advanced in handgun, cannon, bow and bolter fire and lived well enough. Then again, with M6+, I don't spend too much time in the fire. The nice thing is that while a knight is sure to be knowked off his horse by a cannon ball, a daemon's "iffy" save works every time.

Storak
01-10-2008, 12:44
very effective due to mostly t3/4 troops with iffy saves.

daemons got the perfect screen. flying skirmishers with a 5+ ward, who wont panic and are brilliant war machine hunters.

5+ ward is NOT an "iffy" save.


Also cannons and the like kill greater daemons very easily

apart from the GUO, who will on average take 10 direct hits by a cannon. (that is 3 full turns from a battery of 4...)

fubukii
01-10-2008, 20:30
daemons got the perfect screen. flying skirmishers with a 5+ ward, who wont panic and are brilliant war machine hunters.

5+ ward is NOT an "iffy" save.



apart from the GUO, who will on average take 10 direct hits by a cannon. (that is 3 full turns from a battery of 4...)

i will admit vs some things a 5+ ward is good( high str attacks/ignore save wounds), but when you take that wound from a str3 or 4 arrow or crossbow a 33% chance of success In my opinion that Is a iffy save.

olmsted
01-10-2008, 20:51
in this thread i see two types of people can doers who give out ways to beat daemons and the whiners; those that do nothing but bitch about flamers.

everything is beatable and everything is unbeatable. it all depends on that brain of yours and your ability to put it to work. think about your army and think of ways to beat your enemy. fantasy requires you to think ahead not at the moment.

if you want that kind of game then come play 40k where its turn by turn.

every army has a way of fighting and if your not winning then change your tactics.

SolarHammer
02-10-2008, 06:26
if your not winning then change your tactics.
Id it's wins you want then it'd be easier to change your army.

To Daemons.
;)

SirA
02-10-2008, 10:41
flames will have to move and then shoot at long range in many cases..

in my opinon the Fleshhounds are the biggest problem among the normal units..
having M8" MR(3) Ws4 and 2A S5 they are really a problem..
yesterday I pulled off some ~20 shorts in one round with 3 salamanders killing 3 hounds but that is just luck..
as a LM player I dont see anything i could do vs them
a Hero with the Blade of Realities only hits them on 4+ -making this option quite unreliable
sure, fielding a Oldblood with the blade of Realities is an option in theory, but thats just nothing i would do when using a well rounded army

basically this unit can choose its target quite freely and will only have to deal with very few attacks coming back..

EvC
02-10-2008, 10:44
Your Skinks should have a ball with them really!

I've started having a lot more success against Daemons lately, I've won my last two games against them. What's changed? My dice hae been good. My tactics have not changed a jot... all that matters is who rolls dice better! Now that, my friends, is true skill ;)

Von Wibble
03-10-2008, 18:53
Weaknesses - not many. But a few things exist that can be used as levers.

1) ITP - no fleeing allowed. If you have set up combats in your favour you will destroy the unit and he can't escape.

2) Specific roles. Every unit is great at one thing and possibly quite good at another. But individually each unit has a weakness.

Example - the Plaguebearer + herald unit won't die to shooting or in hth.

But it costs 4-500 pts. Many armies have access to a unit for 250 or so poionts that can get in combat with it and not lose by a huge amount (since plaguebearer unit has very low damage output considering its cost). This holds it in position for a long time - considering the average M of plaguebearers probably until turn 5. 400 of his points and a character used against 250 of yours allowing you to outnumber him elsewhere.

3) Need for support - Daemons seem to work best when 2 or more units work together to cover each others weaknesses. If you work on using shooting / magic (daemon magic defense is not amazing) to eliminate 1 part of the tag team then the other has a weakness that you can now try to exploit.

Even allowing for this, a lot of which applies against any other army, Daemons seem very tricky to handle. And that's with a balanced non max force!

SirA
03-10-2008, 19:08
@Von Wibble - definietely some good points..

@EVC - how should Skink cause damage to the Fleshhounds?
if i am lucky i get 1-2 rounds of shooting at them.. in most cases i will have to move and he will be at long range.. 12 Skink cause 2 Wounds of wich he saves about one..
so in 2 rounds i could manage to kill 1 hound..
hm
sure if i can marchblock them from the side and shoot at them for several rounds out of close distance, thats nice..
but that shouldnt happen since ha has gargs, flamers and magic to toast my skink

Storak
03-10-2008, 19:17
1) ITP - no fleeing allowed. If you have set up combats in your favour you will destroy the unit and he can't escape.

the problem with this is, that the daemons don t break either. average rolls, with a reroll should minimize loses.


But it costs 4-500 pts. Many armies have access to a unit for 250 or so poionts that can get in combat with it and not lose by a huge amount (since plaguebearer unit has very low damage output considering its cost).

"not losing by a lot" is still very bad news, because the daemons cause FEAR. with the herald, the unit can put out pretty decent damage actually.

a single unit like this, simply is a perfect corner stone for an army. it provides a save haven for some of the best banners in the game and needs very little flank protection. (even horrors might do)

Bob the Butcher
03-10-2008, 23:46
Just following up on the Polish Thread about Daemons and how well they have done, here is the LV GT this year.

http://gwuscommunity.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/vegasgtwarhammer.pdf

So 9 Daemons in the top 20, and only 4 6th Ed Armies in the Top 20.

Von Wibble
04-10-2008, 13:43
the problem with this is, that the daemons don t break either. average rolls, with a reroll should minimize loses.



"not losing by a lot" is still very bad news, because the daemons cause FEAR. with the herald, the unit can put out pretty decent damage actually.

a single unit like this, simply is a perfect corner stone for an army. it provides a save haven for some of the best banners in the game and needs very little flank protection. (even horrors might do)

I hadn't factored in fear particularly. However, if the unit is cheap enough it can outnumber its foes, and a lot of armies additionally have ITP troops for this role. Examples are Grail relique (less than 300pts for US 30, with stubborn and 4+ save), flagellants, Empire swordsmen (4 to be hit and 4+ save with detachment to give good static CR), dark elf spearmen (use hand weapon then its like the empire swordsmen), dwarf warriors (T4 and 3+ save with rune of "I never run away" on banner), chaos marauders (with new rules 5 pts a piece for WS4 4+ save), clanrats,....

I do not claim any of these solutions to be ideal, they are simply the best I can offer.

EvC
05-10-2008, 00:26
@EVC - how should Skink cause damage to the Fleshhounds?

With their poison basically all hits wound. So if you have two units of 10 skinks (Cost = less than the Flesh Hounds), you'll be able to get off at least four lots of shooting on them, which do enough damage to the unit to weaken them. And, if you have some skill, you'll even be able to use the Skinks to divert the Flesh hounds and expose their flanks.

tricker53
07-11-2008, 00:21
there is little mention of slaaneshi daemonica in this thread. . . maybe it was a bad decision on my behalf to go monogod he/she/it. i wouldve thought all those M10 models would be hell. and seriously, have you guys not read the slaanesh lore? it can be insane if used correctly. slicing shards with massive Ld modifiers will kill any unit it aims at. pavane can target the characters out of units (ironically, the best thing for killing a nurgle herald as it ignores its T and causes quite a few wounds a turn). then theres fiends. those things are beautiful. 3 wound M10 models with 4 S4 AP attacks. a unit of 4 of them will be getting 16 attacks, then you give it succour of slaanesh and it will just steamroll.

what i love about slaanesh in fantasy is they arent the weakest of the bunch (unlike in 40k, sigh). turns out khorne has to pout with his T3 5+s as well, and so does tzeentch until a herald turns up.

and whats this i hear about daemon players using core units as fillers? i love my daemonettes. with a temptator herald, i can literally deny every attack from an opposing combat unit with solid ranked unit of ladies.

MrBigMr
07-11-2008, 00:48
Slaaneshi daemons are the bomb. Fielded a mono-Slaanesh daemons in SoC, field them even now. I though I was the only person in the world who like fiends (former pleasureseekers). Though I do admit that my 'nettes are more fillers, I do make them into fighting units. And why not? I've had my girls even in small numbers carve their way through anything from zombie seas through various monsters. But I realy I love my seekers.

The bad things are that I don't get to use that nice lore that often. I only field a DP and I'm not going to waste 35pts. on her just so that she can get a license to Slaaneshi spells. If it came with something extra, maybe, but now, no way in hell. No matter, with an army of 3-4 M6 and who knows how many M10 (including flying) units, I can pick my fights like there's no tomorrow.

Lister of Smee
07-11-2008, 04:51
I think that when faceing daemons it is best to aim for a draw instead of a win. Just try and keep your high point units out of trouble, hide behind terrain and use cheap expendable units to rederect units.

Norngahl
07-11-2008, 13:08
If the enemy fields a bloodthirster, you won`t have a big chance to win. This damn thing is flying around from cover to cover and hides shooting, has got a good armor save and a decent ward save, is hard hitting, causes terror, immune to magical weapons... It will fly behind your lines and tear up the whole army.

If the enemy doesn`t have a bloodthirster, go for as many attacks as you can get. Black Guard with Dreadlord (1+ AS, Pendant, great weapon), a cauldron, spearman, cosairs, witch evles are the way to go.

They are tough against hart hitting units with few attacks, but against many attacks they are very vulnerable. You won`t need much magic. 2 Hydras combined are nice as well.

oCoYoRoAoKo
07-11-2008, 14:51
Personally, i run a Daemon list (keeper, masque, scribes, herald of tzeentch, 3 units 'nettes, 3 units seekers, 2 units fiends, 2000 points) and the only army that i have had real trouble against is VC. Their magic phase is usually quite strong (which i think will be a problem against most opponents unless you bring lots of tzeentch), and they can weather the first round of combat, repleshing their supplies whilst i get whittled down.

i have also had a hard time (but not lost yet mind you) against fast shooty armies - wood elves in particular. Slow shooty isnt really that much of an issue with so much speed (empire/dwarf gunlines). Something that cought out another daemon player i know (with the ultra nurgle unit of resiliance - UNOR?) was ogre kingdoms (!). MSU with 3 scraplaunchers. The killing blow pieplates reduced that unit to tatters.

Cy.

EvC
07-11-2008, 15:39
Damn armies with three special crutches make me die inside :( (Go on, add Skulltaker as well! Or Kairos maybe ;) )

W0lf
07-11-2008, 15:43
I got to page 4 and got bored.

Im just going to drop in and point out two things:

1. Daemons have been winning all the tournaments
2. When you list T3 5+ ward as a weakness, here a hint, just take plague bearers or horrors?

The daemon lists i cant handle are the ones with plague bearerers, heralds of nurgle, flamers and a blood thirster. To be perfectly honest i relax if i see a daemon player pull out a GuO (who wont win combat vs blocks) or a Lord of change (i cant dispel a blood thirster but i can dispel magic).

Oh and skulltaker is just pure sillyfor his cost, 140pts (?) for a character who will remove any character threat with simple ease.

tricker53
07-11-2008, 22:03
not to mention skulltaker can join non-khorne units now. imagine him protecting that nurgle herald in the plaguebearers?

MalusCalibur
08-11-2008, 01:55
Personally, I think the problem with Daemons is the becoming-famous 'uberlist' that contains regen Plaguebearers, Flesh Hounds, and Flamers in large numbers. I don't think it's fair to say that the ENTIRE book is broken, just certain lists like every other book (with the possible exception of O+G but I'm not getting into that).
Daemons do have lots of very obvious advantages, and I would say are perhaps the easiest to make an 'abusive' list with, judging by tournament results.

The complaints about Daemons (I'm not saying they're unfounded, just to clarify) rather upset me because I love Daemons (have done since the old HoC days), and hearing about how broken they supposedly are makes me feel guilty about playing them-despite the fact that my own current Daemon list is tame by comparison to the 'really' competitive ones (a Slaanesh/Khorne mix without a single Plaguebearer, Flesh Hound, or Flamer in sight).

To answer the main question of the topic, though, I think Daemons do have a significant weakness against magic. Unless you run a LoC/Tzeentch Herald/Horror-heavy list, Daemons are forced to go comparitively light in magic, and have real trouble dealing with high-level and efficient casters like Slanns (hard to obtain dispel scrolls+no non Tzeentch hero level lvl2 caster).

That and shooting. Daemons don't like shooting. And my Daemons especially hate Skinks and Treeman Ancients, just an FYI.


MalusCalibur

tricker53
08-11-2008, 05:25
i agree with malus on the magic part ONLY in <2k. when you can field lords, even without LoC you can get some pretty cool magic (assuming its not a bloodthirster either), and stack up some dispel. also, dont forget the BSB that gives a bound spell.

if you are doing all khorne, you dont need (much) dispel anyway. they all have MR.

shredshredxx
08-11-2008, 08:23
the solution to daemons is vampires.

cc vampires, specifically.

you don't have to kill that many plaguebearers if your melee monstrosity vampire overkills the herald/champ in a challenge,

the overkill, or even the slight win,

will make them crumble

which is your goal

[:

Ixeon
08-11-2008, 09:11
All 4 diffrent ''Gods'' has a weakness.

Slaanesh - low Toughness / low Strength
Nurgle - low Initiative /low Movement
Tzeentch - low CC ability
Khorne - harmful to shooting


the solution to daemons is vampires.
Good for them, but the other 14+ other armys dont have them.

As i see it you just have to se what kind of deamon army you are facing, if you are facing as an example nurgle/slaanesh army, maybe you should focus on taking on the fast units first, while the slower nurgle ones are easier to bait to were you want them. Maybe throw in some stubborn unit to keep them busy while destroying the slaanesh ones first.
Also always including a character with magic items chosen for duels can be a good choice if you are facing TK / VC / daemons sence they are all based on there Heirophant/General to survive. Spells/characters that can target individual characters are also nice.
Greater Daemon is a problem though, but they also cost alot of pts.
Poison is fantastic against large targets.
All units/characters got a weakness, may it be CC resolution, movement or toughness.

MalusCalibur
08-11-2008, 14:45
i agree with malus on the magic part ONLY in <2k. when you can field lords, even without LoC you can get some pretty cool magic (assuming its not a bloodthirster either), and stack up some dispel. also, dont forget the BSB that gives a bound spell.

if you are doing all khorne, you dont need (much) dispel anyway. they all have MR.

Not neccesarily true. Even with a GD at magic level 4, without Tzeentch heralds your other casters are limited to level 1, which balances out at mid-to-light magic.
Combined with the fact that only Bloodthirsters and Tzeentch Heralds can get the equivalent of Dispel Scrolls (and each can only take one at best), and that Magic Resistance won't affect indirect spells (like VC summoning, Ogre buffs, movement spells, etc), and Daemons can really struggle with enemy magic.
If, like me, you're not a fan of Tzeentch, it makes life difficult against magic-heavy armies.


MalusCalibur

MrBigMr
08-11-2008, 15:16
I do agree on the magic bit. Man, for creatures of pure Warp energy, they aren't very good at projecting it. It's like creatures made from fire not being able to use Lore of Fire or something.

SolarHammer
08-11-2008, 18:20
Also agree to the weakness against magic. Khorne, Nurgle and Slaanesh offer practically no magic defence. So even if the Daemon player has the Standard of Sundering, your mages should be able to do some damage (or prevent some if that's how they swing).

So protect them. Don't let the Seekers kill your mages in turn 2. Try and get at what little magic he has.

Note that this advice is thrown out a bit if he has piled up on Horrors, but even if there is Tzeentch afoot (perhaps moreso) it is imperative to protect your mages and hunt his - whether his are flying heralds or units of core infantry.

EvC
08-11-2008, 20:46
the solution to daemons is vampires.

cc vampires, specifically.

you don't have to kill that many plaguebearers if your melee monstrosity vampire overkills the herald/champ in a challenge,

the overkill, or even the slight win,

will make them crumble

which is your goal

[:

Rarely that easy. Melee monstrosity Vampires have to be lucky to kill a Herald, let alone get overkill. Real example from day's gaming: 6 Black Knights + Wight King BSB with Sword of Kings charge 10 Plaguebearers with BSB Herald. BSB is Killing Blowed, hooray! Rest of Knights manage zero kills (As Regen is still on). Daemons strike back, get one poison wound (Failed save, of course), and win by 1 as a result. And if you're not even winning combat on the charge, how will you survive when the inevitable Flesh Hound countercharge happens? The answer, obviously, is that you won't.

SolarHammer
09-11-2008, 00:42
Regen is not still on. Regeneration is lost immediately as soon as the Herald dies, not at the end of combat.

You got punk'd.


Heralds of Nurgle make their retinues of Plaguebearers even more resilient to harm. All Plaguebearers and Plagueridden in a unit with a Herald of Nurgle have the Regeneration special rule. If the Herald is slain this bonus is lost immediately.
Daemons of Chaos p.38

All the locus abilities are the same. Immediately lost if the Herald is slain.

scoopdeta
09-11-2008, 01:31
I would have to agree...it really depends on what you are playing. A DE shooty army does really well against Daemons. I have also seen VC do very well also...

Goruax
09-11-2008, 07:06
My new personal favourite against a Nurgle Herald using Miasma of Pestilence is taking the Necrotic Phylacticery on a Chaos Lord with Glaive of Putrefaction.

"Toughness, Strength, etc of 1? No thanks!"
*WUMP*

Von Wibble
09-11-2008, 09:41
Goruax - That only works if you wound him in the first place. Hellfrie sword is a better bet - ignores regenerate and rather handy against many other daemon models too. Shame its so expensive.

EVC - solarhammer is correct as stated on p.38 of daemon book.

Unless he had a magic banner he won due to having a musician. I believe you would have won the combat had you taken a banner, and tied with a musician. Not to mention there are lots of cheap +CR banners available to VC.

Also note his unit is far more expensive than yours.

Now imagine a vampire lord with dreadlance and immortal fury, in a unit with banner of flaming attacks. That should do the job! Granted its more expensive, but it isn't only suited to plaguebearers.

As far as magic goes - my approach with armies that take horrors to bolster their offense is to usually let flickering fire through (obviously not if its the only thing they have). At 120 points with poor combat ability the damage done by flickering fire per turn is a lot less than a cannon or stone thrower can achieve, and roughly as reliable (a cannon destroys a chariot on 2+ - flickering fire will do little with S<4 and/or hits<4).

If the horror units are bigger then they provide nice targets to get VPs. Should you get to te point where the magic is really hurting then consider yuorself to be facing a daemonic gunline and advance. You need to make this call early.

As far as shooting goes I have to agree with EVC that Daemons aren't simply a case of T3 5+ ward - only bloodletters and daemonettes have this, and both have potential for a charge of 12"+.

So prioritise your shooting. Juggers are very vulnerable for their cost - 2 wounds, 4+ save, 5+ ward for 80 points is not particularly resilient. Would you pay 45pts per model for your flesh hounds to have a 4+ save?

Flesh hounds - yes they have 2 wounds and a ward. But that's 9 S3 hits needed to kill them - you need 12 S3 hits to kill a 2+ T3 knight who costs a lot less. If you can reduce a flesh hound unit to 3-4 models it becomes far less of a threat.

Slaaneshi daemons are fast, but have to have los to charge like everyone else - so you get 1 round of shooting.

Meanwhile Tzeentch and nurgle are easier to pin in combat, either kiling them (Tz) or keeping them occupied with massed troops (Nurgle - see my posts above - note chaos marauders of slaanesh with 4+ save are excellent at this!)

This means empire and dwarfs, and to a lesser extent dark elves (possibly even high elves) have a chance. Daemons are about the only army I actually use RBTs against. Armies with less shooting will however not have this route. But with access to 4 spear chukkas without too much compromising of choices O+G do at least have the means to scare greater daemons. That and the collar of Zorga.

Darth ryanus
05-12-2008, 10:33
I play Daemons and i don't think they are overpowered they just suffer from NAS (new army syndrome). Every thing in the list has a problem or weakness

-Greater daemons- hugely expensive,large target,can die to combat res.ok your not going to get many charges on the bloodthirster or the lord of change but the great unclean one can't out run anything. the fast or flying ones are at +1 to hit with shooting and most armies can get something hard hitting in the shooting phase.

-Horrors-T3,average stats and again die to CR just charge them with a large unit and watch them start to vanish.

-Plaguebearers- slow you should pretty much always get the charge on them and they are very easy to flank then CR will take them down or you just tie them up in combat.A big unit of them will take massive punishment but will cost alot so you should be able to tar pit them woth something cheaper.

-Flamers- These seem to be the most complained about unit and yes they are good but not that good. First they are rare your not going to have many on the board at 3,000 points there will be a max of 18 costing 630 points. Second they have a random number of shots those 18 could shoot anything between 18 and 108 shoots but the average is 63 shots.Third they only have an 18 inch range if they are close enough to your lines to shoot you then you should have something that can shoot/charge them. I think for 630 points most armies could get 63 shots and most would have longer range as well so not all that broken really.Plus they are the only ranged unit in the whole army .

just my tuppence worth

kramplarv
05-12-2008, 10:43
18 flamers will win the battle for anyone.

6 flamers are truly gamebreakers in 1999 games.
12 are gamebreakers in 2000+3000
18 flamers... Are just plain broken and cheese.
630 points for 18 flamers? that is so cheap that it is silly. One barrage of 6 flamers will take down almost any regiment from +5 static CR to +2/3. And very few armies have an effective counter to flamers since they hare rock hard in Close Combat. And stand and shoot. 18 flamers are WAAC. Always.

EvC
05-12-2008, 14:49
EVC - solarhammer is correct as stated on p.38 of daemon book.

Except that when you charge all attacks are performed simultaneously. So the Plaguebearers still had the Regen at the time of their attacks. We played it right.


Unless he had a magic banner he won due to having a musician. I believe you would have won the combat had you taken a banner, and tied with a musician. Not to mention there are lots of cheap +CR banners available to VC.

1 wound, standand, banner, rank, hill vs standard, battle standard and 2 wounds, outnumber. Now that you mention it, it must have been at least a draw in my favour (As I had a musician and he didn't). Either way, winning by 1 was not enough to cause any crumble damage. He still had 3 CR next turn, and Flesh Hounds to counter charge. There's always Flesh Hounds...


Also note his unit is far more expensive than yours.

Tosh! 250 points for Black Knights, 175 points for Wight King BSB. Plaguebearers are 150 points, Herald is 200 at most. Please note that his unit is dirt cheap, as are all Daemon units.


Now imagine a vampire lord with dreadlance and immortal fury, in a unit with banner of flaming attacks. That should do the job! Granted its more expensive, but it isn't only suited to plaguebearers.

Although nice and contrived, you've also got a Vampire Lord that is going to fall down dead if a Greater Daemon or even a Khornate Herald even looks at him. I've used Lords like this (Have you? ;) ), without Dreadlance but with more defensive and useful items like ward saves and immunity to KB- typically 3 hits, 2 wounds, 1 is ward saved, 1 extra attack that may or may not cause a wound. One of the hittiest Vampire Lords scoring 2 kills? 3 or 4 if with Dreadlance? Not great.


As far as magic goes - my approach with armies that take horrors to bolster their offense is to usually let flickering fire through (obviously not if its the only thing they have). At 120 points with poor combat ability the damage done by flickering fire per turn is a lot less than a cannon or stone thrower can achieve, and roughly as reliable (a cannon destroys a chariot on 2+ - flickering fire will do little with S<4 and/or hits<4).

True enough. It's the free dispel dice that makes them annoying! Just have to engage them with a unit with proper CR, anything less and they survive forever...

kramplarv
05-12-2008, 15:04
No attacks are made simultaneously. If the herald dies, the regen is lost. But the allocation of attacks are made simultaneously. But the attacks are not.

edit: And vampire lords with hatred and lance are not worth their points unless they have dreadlance. Without dreadlance, there is no point having your lord as the fighter. If you had used dreadlance your lord would probably have mad 5-6 kills.

Stmr5000
05-12-2008, 17:13
If you play dark elves, I recomend a dragon or two. Correct me if I'm wrong, but their immune to fire, hence taking some of the threat out of flamers.

DeathlessDraich
05-12-2008, 17:35
Hello and welcome Stmr5000 - How many pts do you normally play - more than 1 Dragon?:eek: - I'll guess 5000pts from your username.:p

Hochdorf
05-12-2008, 17:56
My Goblins are facing a Daemon army in a few weeks. My army is built around LARGE blocks of NGs (nets and fanatics). Like all Goblin armies, the killiness comes from the special choices. However, I can't decide whether to max out spearchukkas or throw in some squigs too. Spearchukkas are my best chance of doing some shooty damage, by squigs are the only thing I've got that can match them in CC. Also, squigs' main weakness is getting shot, which is not a big issue vs Daemons. I think their immunity to psychology could also be useful. On the other hand, spearchukkas are always good.

Any thoughts?

kramplarv
05-12-2008, 21:57
2 large squig units, and 4 chuckas.

Even though it is rather nasty, your Goblin horde should more than compensate for that!

samwise
05-12-2008, 22:22
Now bear in mind, I am new to playing Warhammer seriously (spent a few years cutting my teeth on other games, most notably D&D Miniatures) and have only really returned to warhammer properly (Eshin Skaven and Skinks being my chosen avatars so far.. Skirmishers.. mmh)

Anyways

I'd take issue with the wisdom that because Daemons are pooling top at tournaments, that this means (in itself) they are the strongest army. It's been the one thing I've found prevalent in many other games, that when something is percieved (rightly, usually) to be strong, the naturally stronger players tend to select this option, as having built themselves up, they have the most to lose. I know one chap, who maintained such a high (international) rating in a game, that he could *only* play what was regarded to be the most tier-1 of options all the time, because a loss would cost him so very dearly in ranking points.

And of course when all the strong players exclusively use a reliably strong tactical option, then it appears overwhealming.

Mathammer is unhelpful too. I remember the first D&D minis tourny I went to, beforehand of which I'd not played a serious competitive game. I'd read all the forums, read all the battle reports, and was hugely frightened by the concept of Orc Beater bands (at the time, the "toughest" thing). The Math made it look like there was nothing in the game that could stand up to an Orc Champion or an Eye of Gruumsh (tough things, trust me!) I ran the math myself, and it didn;'t look like anything I had stood a bat in hells chance. Duly I turned up with my own band (as rogue as possible as per me), and suprise suprise battered all the miniatures that looked hideous on paper, and clocked up a loss against 2 other rogue bands, thus lumping me at ranking 5 out of about 25 or so. Moral of the story? attempting statistical comparisons between units in bland terms is at best unhelpful, at worst outright misleading,

It's all well and good to start crunching numbers on what happens when a Black Orc leading something comes up against some Nurgle Gribbly leading a bunch of tough Plaguebearers. but it's a toothless excercise to run the averages against eachother for solutions, when the number of variables between the two can vary so wildly. And that's not even to figure in anything else, which has a much bigger impact.

How does my previous point relate to Warhammer? well my regular opponents are one person (Nurgle Daemons, Warriors of Chaos) and another person (Goblins of all shades). After digging my Skaven out of my boxes and getting my first warhammer game for 6 years (and first "proper" game ever) I did my usual of nipping onto forums, scoping the ground, and seeing what was where and how. Suffice to say I drank all the wisdom r.e, Daemons (as my first 3 games were against them). The Math looked daunting. My Skaven army looked utterly outclassed (An unconventional army as per usual...Seer, Warlock, 2x tanked Assassins 3x30 clanrats with warpfires, and more Night/Gutter Runners than you ever saw in your life).

Suffice to say that in about the 4 games I've had vs his Daemons since (Massacre, Solid Victory, Minor Victory, Loss), I've found my mileage varies considerably. I've found I can usually ignore the Plaguebearers entirely (movement 4.. hehe) and all that stuff that scared me to death about Greater Daemons was a bit....unhelpful! I've found that with the case of the GUO, mobbing it with everything usually means it's got no chance whatsoever of winning any combat ever, even if it kills with all attacks, plus more kills from trinkets. I'm aware all this stuff is anecdotal, but so basicly is anything else, including a tournament result, which is going to have a lot of inherent bias in and of its self.

Thus, I have to say that although I was prepared to accept that statictical number crunching examinations might have more relevence in Warhammer than in other games I've been playing over the years, I wasn't hugely suprised (or disappointed) to find that this was not the case. A few generic comparative comparisons can prove all the world in helping to decide probabilities, and potentive chances, but when we get to the raw maths of the "0.71 kills" variety, we lead to the logic that mislead me in my first few proper warhammer games! Given a copy of both Rulebooks, I'm sure anyone could put forward a reasonable case that (to take earlier cited examples) that a Black Orc would have little chance v.s. a Nurgle Herlad, or conversely that a Nurgle Herald would get stomped into bitz under the ironshod boots of the Orc.

It's obviously very useful to run the math, but when this leads to players making choices about what armies to play (to a severe degree) it's not a helpful or even relevent tool..

I'd like to go slightly off tangent as a final point, and ask (without wanting to be silly) what Greater Daemon combos are likely to be tough against ranked units? I know the other 3 Daemons are more cc hitty than a GUO, but I can't envisage more than 5-6 realistic kills from anything I've seen statted (prepared to be enlightened) and with the armies I've been running, I can totally match 5-6 combat res (all the time) easilly, and usually for less points. A Bloodthirster might be the only thing that'd make me pause, but my rediscovery of Warhammer has lead to exclusive use of l4 mages for my 2k lord slot (plus much support), and intuitive comparisons in that regard (including the M.R.) vs Khorne look quite good :)

dannyfave
06-12-2008, 05:31
I have alway had an easy go at it with my dark elves (getting the thread back on track here) even with the 6th ed book but even better now. three units of xbowmen cand dish out some serious dammage to demons. My woodelves have had a good go at them quite a few times as well... i do not know why everyone is afraid of them. I have fought a total of 22 games against demons i lost the first one but haven't lost one since.

EvC
06-12-2008, 15:59
No attacks are made simultaneously. If the herald dies, the regen is lost. But the allocation of attacks are made simultaneously. But the attacks are not.

No attacks are made simultaneously? So each and every attack made in a combat should be rolled one by one separately? ;) No, I don't think you mean to suggest something that would be so retarded. All attacks of the same speed from the same side are made simultaneously: all chargers strike at the same time. As the Wight King cuts down the Herald, the Knights' lances strike the enemy troops.

If this had been the second turn of an ongoing combat, my Wight King would have struck before his troops due to higher initiative, so as soon as the Herald died, regeneration would be lost by the unit. But not on the charge. Feel free to make a thread in the rules forum if you wish to persist in discussing this point...


edit: And vampire lords with hatred and lance are not worth their points unless they have dreadlance. Without dreadlance, there is no point having your lord as the fighter. If you had used dreadlance your lord would probably have mad 5-6 kills.

Well, you can take the Dreadlance, sure, if you want to pay 60 points for a weapon that has no use against the most popular Daemonic general out there (Bloodthirster with Obsidian Armour), and who will probably be killed if it gets into a fight with a Keeper of Secrets- or even a Khornate Herald. The Dreadlance is not as good as you suggest either- I suspect you're wrongly playing it like a Bone Giant, and rolling the extra attacks before your opponent has taken his armour saves. 4 attacks = 4 hits = 3-4 wounds. Then your opponent takes his saves, negating 1-2 of them. So you should expect to cause less than three wounds. Then you have to roll to wound again with those extra attacks, and he gets more saves. If you roll at least one 1 in your original set of rolls to wound (which you will do most of the time), and then your opponent passes 1/3 of his ward saves, that's two wounds, and 1-2 additional wounds caused from the extra attacks. So you're looking at 4 wounds on a good day, maybe 5 if you have decent dice, and only 3 if you're me ;)

Darth ryanus
06-12-2008, 16:05
18 flamers will win the battle for anyone.

6 flamers are truly gamebreakers in 1999 games.
12 are gamebreakers in 2000+3000
18 flamers... Are just plain broken and cheese.
630 points for 18 flamers? that is so cheap that it is silly. One barrage of 6 flamers will take down almost any regiment from +5 static CR to +2/3. And very few armies have an effective counter to flamers since they hare rock hard in Close Combat. And stand and shoot. 18 flamers are WAAC. Always.

One barrage from 630 points worth of shooting should take out one unit.Also most armies imho can get as much shooting for less points with better range.

Caine Mangakahia
06-12-2008, 17:13
Just a couple of things, Greater Demons can Smash fully ranked units, they have the movement to usually hit in the flank( apart from GUO), gaining bonus and negating rank. I've seen a KoS mow down Chaos Knights (scary!!)
It takes a lucky amount of shooting to kill/hurt a greater demon before he's on top of you, and thats if the opposing general is kind enough to let you.
There seems to be a lot of opinion that demons (like pink horrors) just crumble to CR. They are not undead, good ward saves during combat go and/or instability rolls will see them through to another combat round quite easily against all but the most overwhelming CR result.

kramplarv
06-12-2008, 20:56
dreadlance: 4 wounds are more statistically than less against PB. Then saves; he makes 1/4 saves. another 3 wounds, pure statistically, he saves one. 5 wounds in total with wardsave calculated. This is the case against any demon unit in game (except if the regeneration are still in function on PB.)

Darth: yea, one 630pts abrarge should take down a unit. But 6 flamers alone will do this. And they are not worth more than roughly 200 points. 18 flamers shooting at the same target will kill it.

And it is not as much the amount of shots it will fire, it is the amount of shots in 6 rounds it can fire away. Do you honeslty think that an empire army with 40 handgunners and 2 helblasters will get aways even half as much shots as flamers? And do they have Bs4?

now tell me; which armies can have better shooting than 36-108 shots per shootingphase, normally hitting on 4+, wound lots of stuff on3+? coming from THREE SMALL units... 18 models. and all models have T4,W2,Skirmishers,Fearcausing,Stand and shoot, multiple shots, A2 and S5?

What army have better shooters than flamers? yes true, there might be armies with more powerful shooting (cannons, jezzail etc) But they can blow themselves up. Flamers cant. They can have their shooting units panicked of the board, killed by fast cav/flyers. Flamers have no problems with that, a cannon/handgunner/jezzail must stand still to shoot. Flamers can walk around. RxB units may shoot as many shots if they are lucky, but they will most of the time hit on5+, and having S3 shots. And cost roughly the same as a unit of flamers.

And most of all, no other shooting unit in the game are as good as flamers at supporting their army. One barrage of 200 p unkillable shooters can reduce any regiment to under +5 CR. And that is mostly all it needs to do.

No; flamers... are pure cheese,beard,brokeness, cheat, robbery,steal,bargain, over the top etc. They are at least 10-15 pts to cheap.

Caine: QFT!

fubukii
07-12-2008, 00:55
1 barrage at close range possibly....

if you move and have long range they hit on 5s..... ( have played roughly 30 games with my daemons so far)

we will avg 4 shots a flamer. 6 x 4 = 24 x .33 = 8 * 0.5 or .66 depending on toughness, so either 4 wounds before saves, or about 5-6. Yep seems totally broken to me

Mozzamanx
07-12-2008, 11:23
5-6 kills removes a rank, the one reliable way of beating the bigger Daemons insane kill resolutions. Sure it cost you 210pts for that unit, but that unit can skirmish 12" and fire all round, meaning even the simplest of gamers can keep them out of LOS. Even if you do have a cockup and get them in combat, 2 S5 attacks each goes a long way.

So really, its 5-6 kills most turns, except the first (range n' all). That really can add up to alot of ranks removed.

Chicago Slim
07-12-2008, 14:07
Just a couple of things, Greater Demons can Smash fully ranked units, they have the movement to usually hit in the flank...

But this shouldn't be oversold. Yesterday, my friend's Bloodthirster hit the flank of my Orc Boyz: he scored 4 wounds (a bit unlucky for him, between 3+/reroll to hit and 2+ to wound, but there it is). Lucky for me, I was already in with a handful of Bloodletters to the front, and I had my Black Orc BSB in there: the Bloodletters put one kill on my Boyz, and the BSB gave two kills back. The overall result was I lost by two, and was rolling on a 6, with a re-roll. On the next round, my ranked-up night goblins rear-charged the Bloodthirster, and he died to combat resolution.

So, yeah, a Greater Daemon into the flank CAN smash a fully ranked unit, but it's hardly guaranteed to!



It takes a lucky amount of shooting to kill/hurt a greater demon before he's on top of you, and thats if the opposing general is kind enough to let you.

Same game yesterday: he had TWO greater daemons, who charged on turn 2. I was able to whittle away at his Keeper of Secrets, using a Doom Diver, 2 bolt throwers, several spells, and even a unit of unit of night goblin archers, to kill him on Turn 3.

The thing about Greater Daemons is, they're large targets. It's VERY DIFFICULT for them to hide from shooting and magic. The most effective way for them to do so is to stay in combat, but if you line up your battle-lines right, you can prevent him from over-running into another combat, so when he wins his first fight on Turn 2, he's a sitting duck for your next shooting phase...


There seems to be a lot of opinion that demons (like pink horrors) just crumble to CR. They are not undead, good ward saves during combat go and/or instability rolls will see them through to another combat round quite easily against all but the most overwhelming CR result.

A big part of what makes them crumble is that they have low leadership, and relatively weak defenses (a 5+ ward is NOT a "good" ward save!) So, it's generally possible to rack up kills against them in the close-combat round, and then watch those wounding CR points pay extra dividends if he blows the Instability roll.

...with the obvious and much-discussed exception of Plaguebearers, of course...

EvC
07-12-2008, 15:37
dreadlance: 4 wounds are more statistically than less against PB. Then saves; he makes 1/4 saves. another 3 wounds, pure statistically, he saves one. 5 wounds in total with wardsave calculated. This is the case against any demon unit in game (except if the regeneration are still in function on PB.)

Rubbish! When you roll four dice, you are more likely to roll a 1 than not. So you should get 3 wounds, one of which is saved. If you do get 4 then that's great. But you're assuming that first of all you roll no ones, and then that he rolls less than 33% saves is naive, to say the least. You may have rolled that well, but your good fortune does not make something statistically likely ;)

kramplarv
07-12-2008, 21:03
My probability math are somewhat limited, but my teachers always said that dice are an exception to normal (p) chains since they are all individual. ^^ But however, No Vampire lord should call himself fighter unless he has a dreadlance. ( 4 wounds are the math for dreadlance vs wardsave troopers btw..:))

In all other respects, flamers are broken. Warhammers most broken unit in fact. It does not even need a character to release the radiant aura of brokeness that Black KNights need!

selone
07-12-2008, 23:47
Just a quick question in this version of WFB do ALL daemon cause fear even daemonettes and bloodletters? (from the way you guys are talking the answer appears yes but my mate who has the army book claims not that the core units dont all cause fear)

CrownAxe
08-12-2008, 00:23
Just a quick question in this version of WFB do ALL daemon cause fear even daemonettes and bloodletters? (from the way you guys are talking the answer appears yes but my mate who has the army book claims not that the core units dont all cause fear)

Causing fear is a Daemon Special Rule, just like ItP and 5+ Ward

Which everything in the book has

Chicago Slim
08-12-2008, 00:46
So, there's been a couple of probability issues raised here... first a claim (early in the thread) that "mathhammer is useless" and now a suggestion that "dice are an exception to normal (p) chains because they are all individual."

As a maths teacher, myself, I get a little misty-eyed when I read this sort of stuff-- probability, including relatively complex events, isn't rocket science... it's all stuff that was pretty well sorted out 400 years ago (though the gold standard of explaining it wasn't until Pascal, in 1654).

Here's some ground rules: when we do mathhammer analysis, we're pretty much universally talking about "expected value"; like an average, an "expected value" is often NOT a number that could actually come up in reality (the classic example is the 2.4 children in the average American household). Expected values are calculated based on the likelihood of a series of outcomes, and are closely related to all those high-school math questions about "how many different ways can 5 things be ordered?"

So, the fact that each dice roll is an independent event doesn't mean that we can't determine the likelihood of any given SEQUENCE of independent dice rolls occurring-- for example, if I need to roll a 5+ to hit, then a 5+ to wound, then my opponent needs to fail a 6+ armor save, I can simply multiply the probabilities of each event (2/3 * 2/3 * 5/6 = 20/54, or about 37%). If I have 5 identical attacks like then, then my expected kills becomes 5 times greater, or 100/54, or about 185%. From this, I'd round off my "expected" kills at 2.0 (because I can't get 1.85 kills!)

But it's also important to recognize that the actual likelihood of scoring exactly 2 kills with those five attacks is fairly low... to sort it out exactly and rigorously, I'd need about 30 minutes and a pencil and pad of paper; my rough estimation is that it'd be something like this:
0 kills is pretty unlikely-- probably under 10%
1 kill is pretty likely-- call it 25%
2 kills is most likely, around 35%
3 kills gets less likely again, maybe 20%
4 kills is quite unlikely, under 10%
5 kills is vanishingly unlikely-- forget it.

Of course, there's an online Binomial Distribution calculator, at http://stattrek.com/Tables/Binomial.aspx which calculates this stuff exactly, in seconds:

0: 9.9%
1: 29.1%
2: 34.2%
3: 20.1%
4: 5.9%
5: 0.7%

So, my gut was pretty good, eh?


Now, where Expected Value (EV) comes back in is this: The likelihood of the expected value coming up is always the greatest (that is, the EV is always more likely that any other outcome), and the likelihood of scoring EV or better is almost always 45-55%. So, it's a good benchmark for making pretty decent estimations of your odds of doing at least so well...


My point here is that mathhammer isn't about knowing the exact odds (because, until you roll the dice, even VERY GOOD odds is no guarantee of success!). It's about having a decent estimate of what's likely to happen; if nothing else, it means you can stop whining about your bad luck (once you realize that it wasn't as unlikely as all that, really)-- but it also is about making good tactical decisions about when and where to commit your forces...

Darth ryanus
08-12-2008, 08:24
Flamers are great im not saying that they are not. But they are just as likely to roll 1 shot per turn as 6, 35 points for 1 shot per turn is not very good value, 35 points for 6 shots per turn is great value. This is why they are priced at 35 thats about fair for the average roll of 3.5 shots. Yes its underpriced for 6 shots but over priced for 1 so it does balance out. Also saying that they can fire so many shots in 6 turns is a bit empty as in my experience there is very rarely anything to shot at after turn 3 as most things are dead or in combat. I will grant that they have a good bs but to shoot on turn 1 they have to move and shoot over half range so they hit on a 5+, so they are as effective shots as tomb kings but 4x the price. Other than Ogres every army can get longer range shooting much cheaper so you should be able to take them out before they get to many shots off.

Lupinbell
08-12-2008, 09:10
I expect it's been said by now, but Combat Res will destroy single daemons. My Bloodthirster went up against some Nurgle WoC. Due to Combat Res he went down to one wound.

Morale of the story: Find those lone daemons like Fiends, Beasts and GDs and hit them with a fully ranked up unit. One poor instability roll later = severly weakened (or dead) Greater Daemon.

DarknessDawns
08-12-2008, 09:17
vampire counts can beat deamons quite easily in my opinion, well mine can, just whittle them down.

take very large units, if they cant auto break you, you have a huge advantage

DeathlessDraich
08-12-2008, 10:15
On the usefulness of probability - The accuracy of using probability to predict increases with the number of dice rolled. If you're rolling 40 dice or so, then probability predictions are accurate.
Rolling just 1 or 2 dice - might as well ignore probability

kramplarv
08-12-2008, 12:46
conclusion; Mathhammer are very useful in mst situations :p anyway; 6 flamers for 210 points are pretty okay. But 12 flamers for 420 are very cheap... and 18 flamers for 630 is silly. :)

one unit of flamers can be dealt with, its not easy but they can. Two are harder since they now cover a much wider area of the battlefield, and can grind down all large +5 blocks. Having 3 units are just...

that is why flamers are broken. because the more you have, the cheaper they get.

Mozzamanx
08-12-2008, 13:09
Morale of the story: Find those lone daemons like Fiends, Beasts and GDs and hit them with a fully ranked up unit. One poor instability roll later = severly weakened (or dead) Greater Daemon.

Which one? The 2 flying ones, the M10 one or the one with 10 wounds? :p

In short, charging a Greater Daemon with combat res is nearly impossible, since they are so manouverable. The one who you might get a charge against, usually has the acid blood thing which will wipe out ranks after each 'lost' round.

Harwammer
08-12-2008, 14:57
Other than Ogres every army can get longer range shooting much cheaper so you should be able to take them out before they get to many shots off.

How do you suggest ogres and beasts of chaos deal with flamers? An army with flamers is likely to have decent magic defence, so magic missiles won't do any good.

Peril
08-12-2008, 16:47
Ogres - run full speed ahead and hope for bad rolls by him. That's about it.
Beasts - multiple Chariots or Beast Herds. They can only stand and shoot one of them. A beast herd with at least 8 Gor (with Foe-Render) and 13 Ungor will handily defeat a unit of 6 Flamers in a couple rounds. You will need to screen them with something expendable first to keep them from being shot up on the way in.

lparigi34
08-12-2008, 17:37
Yep, flamers can be beaten, but they are nasty anyway.

What Peril suggest should do, but that means focusing a lot of attention with maneouvrable units to a single not-that-expensive unit. In the meantime, the rest of the daemons army is wreacking havoc in the rest of the battlefield...

I already rant nuff 'bout daemons and as someone said: "hey, but I lost once Vs John Doe the other day, so they are not overpowered and I will keep using them". That's from a guy that has some 20-0-1 record with his daemons, and he is just a decent general with other armies.

So, yes, GW outshone themselves with Daemons release. The are not Ok. I do not want clone armies, variety is a must in WHFB. We have always had variety, and sometimes unbalanced units that showed up in every build of X army or a powerful item that everyone used (alas plenty of close to useless items or units), but they were exceptions in some armies that rarely unbalanced the game that much...

But they decided to go all-in-one with daemons... And its already done, and they probably will not take it back anytime soon. So lets learn to live with it.

Chicago Slim
08-12-2008, 20:32
How do you suggest ogres and beasts of chaos deal with flamers? An army with flamers is likely to have decent magic defence, so magic missiles won't do any good.

Charging them with Beast Herds isn't a bad idea... Herd move 5, and they skirmish, so a stand-and-shoot against them will be 5+ to hit. Even a full 6-pack of flamers, on a good day (24 shots) will score 8 hits, expecting 5 wounds. More than 5 wounds on that stand-and-shoot would be pretty unlikely, and there's a very good chance it'll be more like 3-4, but plan for the worst, right? *

Given that, plus the Fear tests you'll have to pass, and your best bet is probably to charge with two mid-sized herd, simultaneously. By mid-sized, I mean about 15 models per unit (which is around 100 points). Better still, make it 3 herds, and you'll be pretty sure that (a) at least two herds make it to charge range alive (b) at least one herd passes the Fear test to charge (c) at least one herd survives the Stand-and-Shoot.


Alternatively, just use the Herds to screen: send three mid-sized units after his flamers, but don't ever make the charge-- just make it so he has no other target, turn after turn. He'll whittle down a unit, sometimes panic them, they'll rally and come back a couple of turns later. With good luck, you'll each lose 0 points (withpoor luck, you might lose 100-150 points) along the way, and he'll get no other use out of his flamers. This means that your main effort will arrive at its target, without having been whittled by his flamers...


For Ogres? I got nothin. Maybe shoot them? How well would Leadbelchers work against flamers? (Really, I'm asking because I don't remember the Leadbelcher rules...)


* Yes, "the worst" case in a literal sense would be 36 shots, hitting 36 times, and wounding 36 times-- but that's ridiculously unlikely, obviously... so, okay, plan for the 80% likelihood threshold...

W0lf
08-12-2008, 20:40
lmao.

I was waiting for the joke at the end of the beasts of chaos counter.

You seriously suggest 3x medium herds as a viable counter??

Cool so you need 6 medium herds to deal with 12 flamers. What do you take to deal with the 18 flesh hounds and bloodthirster???

lparigi34
08-12-2008, 21:57
lmao.

I was waiting for the joke at the end of the beasts of chaos counter.

You seriously suggest 3x medium herds as a viable counter??

Cool so you need 6 medium herds to deal with 12 flamers. What do you take to deal with the 18 flesh hounds and bloodthirster???

That hits right on the spot of my previuos post.

This is the real issue, point by point there is no way to counter a Daemonic :cheese:army...

Ive run a point by point comparison with Empire... Simply stupid. And I will not take arguments saying you can't do this... cause you can.

Simple, what you spend 130 pts to have in Empire will take some 80Pts with daemons. I mean, daemons are not cheap by the model, but when you go and compare what they can do, is where the problems just start. Everything is better and more capable that with any other army, point by point.

My rough estimate is that to counter a 2K daemonic army I need at least some 2500 of Empire, OK or Khemry (the armies I do play the most), and some less for HE, DE, WE, WoC and maybe others, and still...

The only succesfull army Ive found against daemons are Shooty armies with some support and magic denial, and simultaneously the Daemon guy must be having a bad.

Not that I hate them much, eh? :D

W0lf
08-12-2008, 22:49
What list/s do you face?

Im sure i and other members can share advice on counter-lists.

Tae
08-12-2008, 23:56
I'd be interested to know what type of demon armies you guys play against - is it mono-god or multi-god armies?

Personally I run a Slaanesh mono-god army and never really seem to find my army anywhere near as cheesey as is often described on these forums. I can make it fairly cheesey (Icon of Despair + Masque + Phantasmagoria), but even then my three blocks of infantry are fairly squishy. A 5+ ward save isn't that amazing and combined with T3 means my 'nettes rarely make it accross the board with all 3 ranks intact.

Howver multi-god armies seem, to me, far more cheesey than any mono-god ones. The worst thing I've seen is a herald of Tzeentch on a disk behind the KoS taking Master of Socerery and Lore of Shadows, giving the KoS a potentially 40" charge range.

Utter, utter, utter cheese.

Neknoh
09-12-2008, 00:03
Tae, add in Siren Songs on two level one Heralds and a level four Keeper (can you hand it out to all of those, going from memory here, really need to start looking back into the pages of that book of mine).

THEN we're looking at a rather... manipulative, army.

Throw in Siren Standard on seekers.

et voila

Perhaps squishy army, but when it comes to manipulating the leadership and units of your enemy, you are going to win, period, just dont frontal-charge anything with tonnes of strength 5 attacks.

Tae
09-12-2008, 00:11
Tae, add in Siren Songs on two level one Heralds and a level four Keeper (can you hand it out to all of those, going from memory here, really need to start looking back into the pages of that book of mine).

THEN we're looking at a rather... manipulative, army.

Throw in Siren Standard on seekers.

et voila

Perhaps squishy army, but when it comes to manipulating the leadership and units of your enemy, you are going to win, period, just dont frontal-charge anything with tonnes of strength 5 attacks.

Yes you can add it to all of them, but by the time you start adding in all those points (if you include Masque and BSB) you're going to have really small 'nette units, which are even more squishy.

Am certainly not denying that mono-god armies can be made cheesey, very cheesey, but personally I've yet to see a mono-god army that seems to be anywhere near as cheesey as multi-god armies. But from what I've heard about the UK GT results, the vast majority of the top demon armies were multi-god rather than mono-god armies.

W0lf
09-12-2008, 00:22
Tourny Daemons list:

Blood thrister
3x 10 horrors (dispel dice)
flesh hounds
max flamers.

done.

As far as mono-god:

Khorne with Blood thirster, skull taker and flesh hounds is disgusting.
Nurgle w/o greater daemon is sick points denial.
Slaanesh = LD ****
Tzeentch is a magical gunline backed up by the most broken unit (flamers).

All pretty broken if you ask me..

Khorne > Tzeentch > Nugle > slaanesh for mono power imo.

Chicago Slim
09-12-2008, 02:22
That hits right on the spot of my previuos post.

This is the real issue, point by point there is no way to counter a Daemonic :cheese:army...

What? I'm talking about bringing 100 points to limit 200 points of shooters, or 200 points to have a decent chance to destroy them, or 300 points to be fairly sure of doing the job.

Why is that not reasonable? If I bring an under-force in one particular part of the field, the best I should be able to hope is to limit your forces there. If I bring even points, it's a crap-shoot. If I have an over-force, I have some expectation of being able to make something happen.

This is simply a matter of localized superiority.

The particular units we're talking about here (beast herd vs. flamers) are fine examples of this general principle.

fubukii
09-12-2008, 11:53
That hits right on the spot of my previuos post.

This is the real issue, point by point there is no way to counter a Daemonic :cheese:army...

Ive run a point by point comparison with Empire... Simply stupid. And I will not take arguments saying you can't do this... cause you can.


Not that I hate them much, eh? :D


Point by point counter With empire to daemons? Ill take this comparison

Blood thrister/ any other greater daemon 550-650ish pts
Empire - 3 great cannons, and a stank 600 pts.

Seems like a solid counter to me

lparigi34
09-12-2008, 12:13
What? I'm talking about bringing 100 points to limit 200 points of shooters, or 200 points to have a decent chance to destroy them, or 300 points to be fairly sure of doing the job.

Why is that not reasonable? If I bring an under-force in one particular part of the field, the best I should be able to hope is to limit your forces there. If I bring even points, it's a crap-shoot. If I have an over-force, I have some expectation of being able to make something happen.

This is simply a matter of localized superiority.

The particular units we're talking about here (beast herd vs. flamers) are fine examples of this general principle.

Despite having myself answering a post related to yours, I do not disagree with your tactic... Indeed it may work, and being myself a mathammer fan, as you are, maybe we should crunch some figures to have a final decision.

But in my in-game experience it will go like this... Assuming 3x15 man herd as you state:

After initial movements, Flamers will be able to shoot you, any of those units for 2 full rounds, killing at least 10 guys, causing 2 panic checks at least, so, most likely is that by the time you have coordinated your charges, one of the units will be either running or out of reach.

If he is smart, he would have shot at different units in order to remove R&F bonuses.

Then you charge with two units, two fear tests and some 50%-50% (no so, cant remember Ld for this guys, but for sure is not 8) chance that one of have to ... S&S vs the intact unit.

If only one unit charges S&S against it and you will have to test again for casualties, so again a decent risk that no one gets there

It two units (assuming one still intact) do charge then S&S against it (probably the intact one to take R&F) and one will be checking, probably failing it.

Finally maybe, and the lowest chance, is that two decimated units are able to reach the flamers, maybe only one rank + banner for a whooping +2 static CR... and flamers are somewhat nasty in cc...

And all of this happened because he let him go away with charges after two turns, that any clever gamer may avoid simply maneuvering a bit and get an extra turn or two of shooting to further decimate your units.

Also you assume extra things, like Flamers cant hide, that the nasty flying rays that cause wounds by flying over would not have decimated your units any further and many others...

And last but not least, you propose a strategy that works only with a specifically tailored tactic done with units that have a very particular characteristic (skirmish + R&F)... Yes, I can do that too... Elf Cavalry immune to fire will crush them easily.

You being as I am a mathammer fan, analyze what Daemonic units/characters/champions can do, point by point, when compared against other armies.

I did with Empire, only to my frustration. And remember, just for a starter, they all cause fear and have 5+ws... and unit characteristics are truly boosted by character addition (Heralds)

And I am a whiner

lparigi34
09-12-2008, 12:20
Point by point counter With empire to daemons? Ill take this comparison

Blood thrister/ any other greater daemon 550-650ish pts
Empire - 3 great cannons, and a stank 600 pts.

Seems like a solid counter to me

Maybe you are so right, and all daemonic players are just great players and the rest of us plain whiners... :rolleyes:

Or maybe what you say is why no smart daemon player takes them in competitive armies.

The thing with daemons is that you can max out on nasty things more than in any other army. And Id be happy if my daemonic foes do bring Great Daemons all the time, as they fall nicely to amassed handgunners of Hellblaster fire. So your comparison is right, but off target.

And Im done whining vs daemons... this will never end!

W0lf
09-12-2008, 12:24
Erm hang on...

Youve just solved all my issues!

Now blood thirsters are easy to deal with!!! I just need empire great cannons... oh wait...

Also what mook daemons player cant beat that by taking out your cannons with flesh hounds/flamers then bringing out his great daemon???

fubukii
09-12-2008, 12:37
the particular point was that empire had no point for point counters to anything in the daemon army.

Obviously Furies are great at killing cannon crews (unless they wiff thier attacks of course) hounds if they can get there also will magle crews you are right. But thristers are large targets and what is to stop him putting his cannons behind units? In addition flesh hounds or flamers, arent very effective vs steam tanks, the impact hits and in later rounds the grind would do a hefty number on the unit to say the least if not destroy them entirely.

Empire are easily one of the best armies to play against daemons with, you have tools in your book to counter almost anything they can take (plauge bearers with regeneration may be a different story, unless you mass fire mages but even then...)

On another note id say most competitive daemon armies take a greater daemon of some sort, Normally a thrister (kos with siren song seems popular as well), and dont forget kairos.

Darth ryanus
09-12-2008, 14:21
I would agree on one point about Daemons the special characters are massively underpointed but then so are the characters in every new book. But it seems flamers are the most upsetting unit to most people.

Lets take a standard game both armies are deployed atleast 24" apart. Daemons will nearly always be out numbered so probably get first turn, with this in mind set up all your units 25" away from the Daemons . so first turn they have to move closer,if they move 6" they cant fire this turn as they are out of range, if they march then they still cant fire. So that is 210 points doing nothing in turn 1. So turn your turn you probably have something that can shoot at them (unless your playing WOC or BOC) maybe you can even take out 1 or 2.

Turn 2- assuming you didn't move before you shot at them and they marched the previous turn you are now 13" away, this gives the Daemon player 2 choices stand and shoot at over half range -1 to hit or they can move closer and be at -1 to hit. Lets be really evil and the worst case possible 6 flamers that all roll 6 shots. thats 36 shots at 4+ to hit so half should hit you thats 18. Assuming t3 targets they would on 3+ so 12 wounds lets say LA and a shield so you still get a 6+ save so 10 wounds.
Ok thats worst case how about best case for you 6 flamers all roll 1 so 6 shots, thats 3 hits and 2 wounds.
On average rolls of 3.5 per dice thats 21 shots, so 10.5 hits (round up for 11), thats about 7.33333332 (my maths is not amazing so could be slightly out) round up again 8 wounds. Probably 7 wounds after saves, not a huge amount of damage for 210 points. Plus they are now between 9" and 13" away from you(closer if you moved in your turn) so well within short range for most units if they move a couple of inches and well within charge of most armies cav or skirmishers.

so by the end of turn 2 at the very worst 210 points of troops have killed 10 models at the very most and 2 at the least. The true value is probably some where in between these about 7 or 8. The same points value of Empire,DE,HE,WE,Skaven and probably most other armies can pump out this much if not more damage.

I think people are getting to hung up on 1 units strengths and not looking at the whole army. They have 1 ranged unit, pretty much no armour and almost every unit is t3. Yes flesh hounds are nasty but no more so than any other cavalry and weaker than some. Plaguebearers are hard to kill but then at 12 points each they should be and for regen they cost an additional 115 points per unit. Thats 235 points for a minimum sized unit of 11 models not really that scary.

EvC
09-12-2008, 14:43
Pfffrp, my unit of 9 Chosen Chaos Warriors is 250 points, without any hero granting the entire unit Regeneration on top of a ward save. 235 points for 11 Plageubearers with a nuff-hard character in them too is a complete bargain.

On the other hand I've never found Flamers that scary. A good player should be able to mitigate their power.

fubukii
09-12-2008, 15:26
well i will admit that chosen are extremely over costed, but they have the potential to be really, good if the eye of the gods table goes their way (4+ ward and stubborn ftw :))

EvC
09-12-2008, 16:18
They're expensive, but I don't know if I'd say they're overcosted. Plaguebearers, however, are dirt cheap- and it's almost dishonest to say it costs an additional 115 points to give them regeneration. It costs Vampire Counts players 125 points to give a unit regeneration through a magic banner, on top of the character cost and BSB cost! It costs Daemon players 115 points to buy a Nurgle Herald, and grant their unit regeneration on top. It's lunacy to act like this is pricy.

MarcoPollo
09-12-2008, 16:40
What do you think are the weaknesses around MSU demons. You know the type. No greater demons, lots of small units like. fleshounds, furries, seekers, and 3-4 heralds?

It would seem that magic defense would be a problem. But being able to hunt mages would be easier and not as risky. Plus you may not be able to pull off some of the more elegant tricks that a GD might allow.

fubukii
09-12-2008, 18:32
well evc to be honest the plague bearer on its on isnt too bad for 12 pts a model, the herald after upgrades runs about 200pts easy. the benefits he gives that unit are amazing though i will admit.

As for msu daemons with alot of heroes, unless they are heavy tzeentch they are probably lacking in the magic phase. Just try to fight his units 1v1 and wipe out some with shooting or magic if possible.

W0lf
09-12-2008, 18:33
Weakness of MSU daemons is no diffrent to the weakness of MSU in any army. They cant flee which emans they lose a fair few of the usual advantages of MSU armies aswell.

Plague bearers with regen are definatly undercosted as has been pointed out however.

lparigi34
09-12-2008, 23:25
... It's lunacy to act like this is piracy.

Part of my rant about the characters, particularly Heralds that confer huge bonuses to units, at a ridiculous price, unlike the aforementioned Vampire Banner.


I would agree on one point about Daemons the special characters are massively underpointed but then so are the characters in every new book....

I really disagree, at least not so true for the armies I do play: Empire, O&G, OK and TKs

The issue is not their individual cost, as solos maybe are even well priced, but putting herald into units give the unit huge bonuses almost for free. And IMHO Warhammer is still about units.



But it seems flamers are the most upsetting unit to most people.

I hate them, but that is just one unit, I totally agree. Part of the issue is that even being one unit it causes a lot of unbalance. Why do not give Empire a 6" moving Hellblaster that can be hit at -1, with 6th Ed shooting rules that can also go in CC and causes fear and is ItP for 200 points... who would miss it?

Besides, the rest of the army is still nasty, specially multi mark armies.


Lets take a standard game both armies are deployed atleast 24" apart. Daemons will nearly always be out numbered so probably get first turn, with this in mind set up all your units 25" away from the Daemons . so first turn they have to move closer,if they move 6" they cant fire this turn as they are out of range, if they march then they still cant fire. So that is 210 points doing nothing in turn 1. So turn your turn you probably have something that can shoot at them (unless your playing WOC or BOC) maybe you can even take out 1 or 2.

Turn 2- assuming you didn't move before you shot at them and they marched the previous turn you are now 13" away, this gives the Daemon player 2 choices stand and shoot at over half range -1 to hit or they can move closer and be at -1 to hit. Lets be really evil and the worst case possible 6 flamers that all roll 6 shots. thats 36 shots at 4+ to hit so half should hit you thats 18. Assuming t3 targets they would on 3+ so 12 wounds lets say LA and a shield so you still get a 6+ save so 10 wounds.
Ok thats worst case how about best case for you 6 flamers all roll 1 so 6 shots, thats 3 hits and 2 wounds.
On average rolls of 3.5 per dice thats 21 shots, so 10.5 hits (round up for 11), thats about 7.33333332 (my maths is not amazing so could be slightly out) round up again 8 wounds. Probably 7 wounds after saves, not a huge amount of damage for 210 points. Plus they are now between 9" and 13" away from you(closer if you moved in your turn) so well within short range for most units if they move a couple of inches and well within charge of most armies cav or skirmishers.

so by the end of turn 2 at the very worst 210 points of troops have killed 10 models at the very most and 2 at the least. The true value is probably some where in between these about 7 or 8. The same points value of Empire,DE,HE,WE,Skaven and probably most other armies can pump out this much if not more damage.

I think people are getting to hung up on 1 units strengths and not looking at the whole army. They have 1 ranged unit, pretty much no armour and almost every unit is t3. Yes flesh hounds are nasty but no more so than any other cavalry and weaker than some. Plaguebearers are hard to kill but then at 12 points each they should be and for regen they cost an additional 115 points per unit. Thats 235 points for a minimum sized unit of 11 models not really that scary.

I do like your approach, i'll definitely try it, before coming in here for another ranting round :D

Asmodai48
09-12-2008, 23:35
An additional 115pts for regen AND a hero who has t5....

Darth ryanus
10-12-2008, 08:36
I think the biggest problem is that Mono-god armies always lack something important. I started out with mono Slaanesh and got whooped quite often as i lacked range and magic. Khorne lacks range and magic,Tzeentch lacks combat and Nurgle lacks magic,speed and range.

Yes the old fluff always went on about how the gods almost never worked together and had rules to keep them apart this new version was designed to be used multi god. The gods all fill different rolls in the army, to call it cheesy to take multi god would be like calling an empire knights army cheesy if he had a cannon its just part of the army. Yes there are some insanely powerful combo's in the DOC book and the special characters should be banned at tournements but so should everyones.

The reason you can give Plaguebearers regen is because they need it they are the slowest part of the army and would just get shot to pieces without it. Daemonettes need ASF as they are just so fragile they could never survive in combat if they went second. The Khorne herald gives hatred which is nice but not really needed and the Tzeentch herald gives a possibly to good improvement for its cost.

MrBigMr
10-12-2008, 09:01
I think the biggest problem is that Mono-god armies always lack something important. I started out with mono Slaanesh and got whooped quite often as i lacked range and magic.
Range? You mean shooting attacks? Where do you need them? Apart from 3 blocks of 'nettes, my mono-Slaanesh does M10 across the board. I don't have time for ranged attacks over how awesome my speed is. I can pick my battles and that is more than any 0+ armour knight block can do.


The gods all fill different rolls in the army, to call it cheesy to take multi god would be like calling an empire knights army cheesy if he had a cannon its just part of the army.
No, it's like having High Elf spearmen and great swords, Dwarf thunderers and war machines, Bretonnian knights and calling it an Empire army. I don't remember anyone having a problem with the old SoC list, but then GW just decided to balance all the daemons according to each other, which naturally led to them becoming dependent of each other.


Daemonettes need ASF as they are just so fragile they could never survive in combat if they went second.
How many armies have higher I than 'nettes? Not to forget that with their speed, they're bound to get the charge. And never, ever say 5+ Ward is fragile. I once played a doubles tournament with some Khorne beastmen, and I ended up being the anvil as my units could hold the enemy far longer than his herds and trolls and ogres. I've once had a lone standard bearer fight vs. a block of sauruses and cold one riders for 3 whole rounds. And before it died, it managed to grind the saurus block blow half strength.

Fragile my ass.

W0lf
10-12-2008, 11:13
People really do under-estimate a 5+ ward dont they??

Against S3 ranged attacks its the same save a LA, Shield
Against S3 AP and S4 its the same as Heavy armour, shield
Against S4 AP its the same as full plate/chaos armour shield

As the bottom one is the most common in gunlines (handgunners, thunderers) you can hardly call it 'weak'.

Then theirs the fact that with the prevalance of S5 elite troops comming through a 5+ ward is the same as HA, Shield which is far from shabby.

Fredmans
10-12-2008, 13:26
Then theirs the fact that with the prevalance of S5 elite troops comming through a 5+ ward is the same as HA, Shield which is far from shabby.

It is even better than HA, shield, since it works even when flanked. I agree with you, W0lf. Many people are seriously underestimating 5+ ward saves or else they are playing all-knight lists.

/Fredmans

Chicago Slim
10-12-2008, 14:44
I'm not underestimating the 5+ ward save-- or rather, I'm underestimating it about as often as I overestimate it!

I estimate that 1/3 of the wounds I cause won't count; thought of from the other direction, I estimate that I need to generate 50% more firepower than I would if the unit had no save.

*shrug*.

Since I'm used to making that sort of adjustment to deal with armor, it's a very familiar and comfortable bit of calculation. The biggest difference is that the ward save has to be accounted for, even when shooting with artillery (which I tend to do a lot of)... Mostly, that means it's much less worthwhile trying to shoot artillery (especially bolt throwers) at units, and therefore more worthwhile shooting them at lone characters (like, say, greater daemons...)

Tae
10-12-2008, 15:08
People really do under-estimate a 5+ ward dont they??

Against S3 ranged attacks its the same save a LA, Shield
Against S3 AP and S4 its the same as Heavy armour, shield
Against S4 AP its the same as full plate/chaos armour shield

As the bottom one is the most common in gunlines (handgunners, thunderers) you can hardly call it 'weak'.

Then theirs the fact that with the prevalance of S5 elite troops comming through a 5+ ward is the same as HA, Shield which is far from shabby.

Personally I find that the higher the strength of the attack the 'better' I am at saving with the ward save!

KoS, for example. Cannonball to the face? Psht. Dragon trying to bite my head off? Pur-lease! Unit of Grail Knights charging my rear? Ha ha, don't make me laugh!

But when it comes to the Knight's horses? Oh dear god no!

W0lf
10-12-2008, 18:59
Cannons, Dragons and Grails knights!!!!
Deal god theres a army more broken then Daemons!!!! ;)

Is it worth mentioning that all herald armies are better at 2K then those with a greater daemon. (possible exeption in mono-God armies for some and The blood thirster ofc.)

fubukii
10-12-2008, 19:24
IOd say the only army who gains more from taking just heralds then their greater daemon is Nurgle. The nurgle herald is amazing and quite a steal for what he does to his units.

The khorne heralds while good, dont out perform a blood thrister most of the time

Tzeentch heralds while decent overal, and can have some pretty nifty abilities (scroll, master of sorc, fly, or power vortex) arent that good. If you take vortex you basically are stuck with a lvl 2 mage with tzeentch magic. Now that doesnt sound bad, but 3/4 of the spells in that lore are unusable/extremely situation. So he will probably get stuck casting nothing but flickering flames (boon is worthless on a mage with 2 spells, bolt and firestorm to high to cast, glean magic is situational, gift of chaos is amazing, and flickering flames is a good first lvl spell)

And slannesh heralds are really only useful for using siren, they are average at best otherwise imo (granted giving asf to your units is awesome, i just dont think many of the slannesh units bar seekers maybe are worth taking in a competitive enviroment over the other choices.)

W0lf
10-12-2008, 19:28
I personally dont think the GUO and/or LoC are very good for the points.

A GUO looks great on paper but combat res block units is the death of this guy. And lets be honest when he cost so many points its fairly easy to tarpit him.

MrBigMr
10-12-2008, 19:30
Is it worth mentioning that all herald armies are better at 2K then those with a greater daemon.
Yup, I've heard it's good. If only I didn't field a DP and 2 Chariot Heralds (in 3000pts.)...

fubukii
10-12-2008, 19:56
I personally dont think the GUO and/or LoC are very good for the points.

A GUO looks great on paper but combat res block units is the death of this guy. And lets be honest when he cost so many points its fairly easy to tarpit him.

I agree that a guo and loc arent really that good overal ( i think the loc is better then the GUo tho), but kairos on the other hand is pretty useful :)

W0lf
10-12-2008, 20:00
Again i disagree. Anything that flies is a dead set counter.
Plus without power vortex he may have 10000 spells but he only has 6 dice.

Im not a huge fan of his. I prefer a lvl 3 LoC with twin heads. 575 pts which is the best value you'll get from him imo. That is ofc in a pure Tzeentch force.

in mixed Gods With a GD theres simply no reason to look any further then the blood thirster

fubukii
10-12-2008, 21:19
true i guess i forgot to add when i use kairos that i take the blue scribes :) The meta game at my area is medium to heavy magic, so my kairos always works with more then 6 dice. But i do agree on his own kairos isnt too impressive except for his overwhelming versatility.

Tae
11-12-2008, 01:05
Again i disagree. Anything that flies is a dead set counter.

And Siren Song on a herald inside a unit of 20 'nettes, as my friend found out :D

Darth ryanus
11-12-2008, 12:41
Range? You mean shooting attacks? Where do you need them? Apart from 3 blocks of 'nettes, my mono-Slaanesh does M10 across the board. I don't have time for ranged attacks over how awesome my speed is. I can pick my battles and that is more than any 0+ armour knight block can do.


No, it's like having High Elf spearmen and great swords, Dwarf thunderers and war machines, Bretonnian knights and calling it an Empire army. I don't remember anyone having a problem with the old SoC list, but then GW just decided to balance all the daemons according to each other, which naturally led to them becoming dependent of each other.


How many armies have higher I than 'nettes? Not to forget that with their speed, they're bound to get the charge. And never, ever say 5+ Ward is fragile. I once played a doubles tournament with some Khorne beastmen, and I ended up being the anvil as my units could hold the enemy far longer than his herds and trolls and ogres. I've once had a lone standard bearer fight vs. a block of sauruses and cold one riders for 3 whole rounds. And before it died, it managed to grind the saurus block blow half strength.

Fragile my ass.

So you think that taking units from 1 book that was designed to be played together is the same as merging 3 or 4 different books and picking the best units from each.
Plus everyone keeps saying that 5+ ward is amazingly better than armour because it stays the same at high strength hits,the claim that its the same as having chaos armour plus a shield against s4ap or s5 hits is true, but its still only 5+ against s1 whereas the chaos armour plus shield would get a 2+ save. So yes its great some times but its poor some times as well.

kramplarv
11-12-2008, 13:17
against S3 shooting with no modifiers it is the same as eveyrthing with light armour/shield.
against everything with S3AP and S4+ (majority of shooting in the same) 5+ wardsave are better than lightarmour+shield.

In closecombat, against S3 troopers lighjt armour+shield+hw are better. against S4 the wardsave and LA,Shield,HW are the same. Against S4AP, S4+ the wardsave are the best.

now; Be honest; compare the amount of S3 no save modifiers troops vs S4+. Such as cavalry,characters, monsters, warmachines, spells etc the 5+ wardsave are so much better.

so; they have the better sav ein majority of situations. always.

Darth ryanus
11-12-2008, 15:15
ok lets see s3 troops

Skaven,empire,elves of all 3 types,goblins,skinks,zombies,skellies,swarms,2/4 Daemons,

There are far more models in this game and on each table with s3 or less than there are with s4 or more. So as i have said before 5+ ward is not that much better than LA+shield, in fact that would be better as you get +1 in combat if using a hand weapon. So for ranged attacks its the same as LA+shield and in cc its the same as shield+hand weapon.

kramplarv
11-12-2008, 15:42
empire:

S3. swordmen, spearmen,free company,archers
S4+ knights, characters, crossbows,cannons,volley guns, magic, handgunners, pistoliers, outriders, mortars, rocket battery, prayers,

Skaven:
S3. clanrats, slaves, plaguemonks, night runners/tunneling teams
S4+ stormvermin,magic, shooting, characters, rat ogres,

DE:
S3: spear elves, witch elves,
S4+ shades, R-Xbow, hydra, characters knights, BG,executioners, boltthrowers, chariots, monsters, magic

HE:
S3:spear elves, archers
S4+: swordmasters, magic, boltthrowers, monsters, characters, white lions, chariots, all cavalry,

WE:
S3: eternal guard, archers, wardancers,waywatchers
S4+: wardancers, all cav, characters, monsters, treekins, magic, archers

OnG:
S3 Goblins, snotlings,orcs
S4+ orcs, cavalry, shooting, magic, chariots, characters, champions, monsters, squigs

VC:
S3: zombies,skeletons,ghouls, fell bats, ghosts,
S4+ everything else.

LM:
S3; skinks,
S4+: everything else

Daemons:
S3; horrors,screamers,
S4+ everything else.

Swarms:
a very few swarms exist in warhammer.


S4+ = S3Ap, S4, S4,Ap, S5+.

As we can see from this very simple table, most of the hits a demon will receive are from S4 or equivalent. It is true that just S4 makes the 5+ wardsave as good as LA,SHield,HW in HtH, but is much better vs S4 on ranged combat. And almost all shooting in this game are S4+.

So all in all; 5+ wardsave are a lot better than HW+Shield+LA since it will increase their survivability to get int HtH, where demons always have upper hands. And in HtH their ward save are much better than armor since most of the units in WHFB in closecombat has S4+, so they will still have the 5+ wardsave even against a flank charge of blood knights with S7.

Darth ryanus
11-12-2008, 15:59
so apart from the empire list everyone has s4+ available as a special or rare choice so the s3 core choices will far outnumber them.

Gaftra
11-12-2008, 16:37
yes, but S3 core arent counting on causing wounds to win. what the daemons do is effectively neutralize the harder hitting units whose purpose is to remove models.
Also aside from nurgle i dont see many daemon players really using their core to win combats.
Also i would take KoS over equal points in heralds any time simply for the fact that certain army REALLY struggle to deal with it. using my wood elves against a mono slaneesh army was about the most painful game ive ever played.

MrBigMr
11-12-2008, 16:40
So you think that taking units from 1 book that was designed to be played together is the same as merging 3 or 4 different books and picking the best units from each.
Nitpick all you want, biggest problem daemons have is that they get to take the cream off the top without problems. What army has the same amount of options on each slot? When you take Dwarfs, you don't get speed, you have to work with what you got. Or if you take High Elves, you get ASF attacks, but forgo high T and armour. If you take Warriors of Chaos, you get durability and combat skills, but don't get any shooters.

But with daemons you get all of that with no restrictions. You're free to mix and match everything and they ain't that bad options to begin with. The old "must have an Undivided general to have a daemon circus" was good idea, as it limited this sort of behavior a little. Even a "must have a Khorne hero/lord to take Khorne units, must have a Nurgle hero/lord to take Nurgle units, etc." would have been a good idea for the new book.


Plus everyone keeps saying that 5+ ward is amazingly better than armour because it stays the same at high strength hits,the claim that its the same as having chaos armour plus a shield against s4ap or s5 hits is true, but its still only 5+ against s1 whereas the chaos armour plus shield would get a 2+ save. So yes its great some times but its poor some times as well.
Oh, it is. Believe me, it is. Mathhammer it all you want, a universal save vs. everything is way better than high armour vs. ASM. Those high strength monsters, "ignores armour" magic, cannons, are all wasted on daemons. Sure, vs. low S opponents they're worse, but so far I haven't seen an army that didn't put points on high S units and war machines in the hopes of facing some high save/high T opponents.

Shamfrit
11-12-2008, 17:00
Oh woe the Daemons, and all those who are trodden beneath their baying hooves. Is this discussion still going? It's been too long now, and the frequency of complaints, and army appearances are slowly, but surely, dropping in number. I don't claim to know how to beat Daemons with impunity, or how to abate their every strength and not leave any weaknesses open, but after a serious of losses, both with and against the army as a whole, (using varied lists of all types) I can safely say we seem to be through the worst of the storm (, ba-dum, of Chaos! Sigh...)

Greater Daemons offer a clause in most Daemon armies, in that, if they die, you virtually are guaranteed to get nothing more than a draw, and in all likely circumstances, a minor loss - depending on the turn it dies, and the way in which the game has gone up until that precise point. It's a minimum of 550 points handed straight to your opponent, and it will mostly likely be upgraded considerably and be all singing, and all dancing, dancing 700+ points across the table that is.

Heralds are only really worth the consideration of 'broken' when they are considered in situ with the appropriate units. After all, Daemonettes without ASF should in theory die in droves, considering their low strength, against the most casual of opponents they'll still have trouble doing a great deal beyond the rare outnumber/fear autobreak. Plaguebearers are nothing more than slow, ambling dwarves, prone to being swarmed and ground out of existence. Bloodletters are the best of the bunch, because they're still STR5 with Killing Blow so feared rightfully so, leaving us with Horrors, and we all know Horrors are resilient little buggers, but can be tied down within minimum points investment, and provide easy access to taking down the opponent's magic levels. Daemonettes get Siren Song on their side, for the enemy to flank wth Fleshhounds and to wipe your unit off the board, but it is expensive, and you know it's coming, so throw cheap screens or a scarifical cheap rank and file unit in the way to allow you to whittle away his support. Assassinate the heralds, to take away regen, or to remove Hatred, and you've taken huge steps to being able to get through the Daemon line.

Magic. Only Tzeentchian, and really, only Tzeentchian Flying Circus should be considered game breaking. 22 Power Dice in a very, very small army is not going to win games, well, it might, if you roll brilliantly, manage to get 3 or more turns of magic off, don't miscast, and don't come up against moderate dispel dice to weaken the magic where it hurts the most (which will most likely throwing all your dice at the Lord fo Change, since Flickering Fires are a bit like sticks and stones,) once you're in combat with them - you've won, unless you're opponent has weakened his magic to take some combat units, which won't be enough if you know what you're doing.

Shooting. Flamers. Once the bourgious elite of the ranged world, once people realise they're terrible at long range or if they have to move, or for that matter, once they're down to 3-4 in number, they're suddenly not a threat. Twin flamer, that's an interesting one, now realise their speed is hampered, and against knights, dwarves, undead and other daemons, it's like heating up a pan, only to realise you're not hot enough to melt it. (Oh, and the 500 point cost.)

The Daemons reign is all but over, I think if you've not adapted by now, then you're never going to get around the 'super powered broken army list which is unbeatable' syndrome, and no amount of tactica threads or advice is going to change that.

The simplest advice I can give from personal experience (and finally, success against them!) is to perservere, be not afraid, and go at them with the same strength, gusto and lack of fear (and hopefully not too many fear tests in return...) they come at you with!

kramplarv
11-12-2008, 17:21
Well, no one said that they are unbeatable. But they have no significant weaknesses that other armies have.

itcamefromthedeep
11-12-2008, 18:13
The book overall has no real weakness, because they have an answer for everything, kinda like Eldar in 40k.

While the army has no weaknesses, individual units might.

Plaguebearers with a Herald are slow, so their weakness is being outmaneuvered and being stuck in remarkably unfair fights. The comparison to Dwarfs is apt. They're analogous to a Dwarf Lord and Hammerers.

Greater Demons are vulnerable to rolling low, so if you can put static combat resolution on your side or roll a lot of dice against it, it'll die. Before the flames start, by "vulnerable to rolling low" I mean they suffer more from bad dice rolls, and disastrous rolls come up more often because they roll relatively few dice (so higher variation in the result).

Flamers, well, I'm not entirely sure because I haven't actually played against them. It sounds, however, that if you can kill a few then they stop being a threat, which makes sense for a shooting unit.

Flesh Hounds suffer from shooting and get mauled if they roll badly against static combat resolution. They fight a lot like Chaos Knights, and can be dealt with in a similar fashion.

Horrors tend to do badly in close combat.

You get the idea. Once more, it's hard but naturally not impossible. What I'm more concerned with is how much fun they are to play against (I don't plan to play with them any time soon). I think the emphasis on active combat resolution and "unbreakable" units is bad for the metagame. High Elves strayed a bit farther from static combat resolution then I'd like, but Daemons are bad. I'm glad I don't see any at my LGG.

MrBigMr
11-12-2008, 19:13
Heralds are only really worth the consideration of 'broken' when they are considered in situ with the appropriate units. After all, Daemonettes without ASF should in theory die in droves, considering their low strength, against the most casual of opponents they'll still have trouble doing a great deal beyond the rare outnumber/fear autobreak.
Well call me lucky as my little girls tend to fare well with or without ASF. Sure, they might not have all that fancy brawn, but boy, when they get into it, they'll scratch your eyes out. There's no save for having to roll a lot of saves. I've had opponents look in disbelief when I start picking out the dice for my attacks. Never underestimate the psychological effect of rattling few dozen dice in your hand.

Shamfrit
11-12-2008, 19:16
By all means Big, I'm not suggesting they're terrible without it, but shove some knights at them and suddenly it ain't so pretty, whereas, with ASF, they're getting 13 AP attacks to the face before they can flinch!

MrBigMr
11-12-2008, 19:42
By all means Big, I'm not suggesting they're terrible without it, but shove some knights at them and suddenly it ain't so pretty, whereas, with ASF, they're getting 13 AP attacks to the face before they can flinch!
Knights ain't got nuttin' on me! And even if I did allow them to even get the chance to charge, there's a unit of seekers or fiends just waiting for them to expose their big juicy flanks to me for some taloning. Like the old saying goes "T3 can't take it from behind."

Gaftra
11-12-2008, 19:47
yeah, its not the daemonettes hitting you back that the problem. its the everything else that going to crush you if you dont obliterate them.

Shamfrit
11-12-2008, 20:11
Rapturous Standard, a BSB, and immunity fear means I'm likely to stick around ;)

That will be a VERY messy combat!

Latro_
12-12-2008, 10:05
I'm a bit confuzzed as to why plague bearers are slower with a herald?
Heral, Palanquin and Plague bearers are all M4, Dwarfs are M3...

:s

itcamefromthedeep
12-12-2008, 13:37
I'm a bit confuzzed as to why plague bearers are slower with a herald? Heral, Palanquin and Plague bearers are all M4, Dwarfs are M3...
They're not slower with a Herald, but M4 is already relatively slow. Cavalry, fliers, large monsters, and Ogre equivalents in every book are all faster, as are the basic infantry in certain books, like HE, DE, WE, Skaven, and Beasts of Chaos. M4 is not average, it's slow when you look at all Movement values in the game.