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Catpipe
07-11-2005, 21:59
If a ld10 chaos dwarf refuses a challenge can the unit he is in benefit from his leadership for the purpose of break tests/panci tests etc.?

Also if he is the general can other units use his leadership

Thanks for your responses in advance

-Catpipe

Da GoBBo
07-11-2005, 22:05
The character has left the game for almost every purpose. The only thing he does is cover a piece of the table and be a target to shooting, magic, and charges and stuff (normal rules still apply of course).

T10
07-11-2005, 22:06
That pretty much covers it.

-T10

Catpipe
07-11-2005, 22:19
so the unit cannot benefit from his leadership

Da GoBBo
07-11-2005, 22:22
Nope, he's not much more then a potted plant to be kicked and abused when one feels like doin so. That said, no proper soldier will answer to a cowardly general, pfha.

Major Defense
08-11-2005, 14:40
Make sure that when taking your panic/break tests at the end of a round you roll for the BSB/general unit last. I don't think that there is any rule demanding that you take tests in a disadvantageous order. I did this in the wrong order once in a battle that we had already "fudged" by going past 6 turns so my sworn enemy let me have it.

Festus
08-11-2005, 17:04
Hi

There is no order to do these tests:

The Ld of the character/item in question is there the whole phase or it is absent the whole phase, there is no right or wrong sequence.

If your General breaks from combat, it doesn't matter whether he rolls first or last, your units still benefit from his leadership.
And vice versa:
If your general has to rally there is no point in doing so first, all other units cannot benefit from his Ld in the rally-tests.

You either have the bonusses for the whole subphase or not at all.

Greetings
Festus

Yanos
09-11-2005, 07:21
Is there a page reference for that? As I can see it being really useful from time to time, and I know it's the kinda thing I'll be asked to prove :D. Ta!

Tarax
12-11-2005, 16:54
On page 99 it says all about challenges.

In short: the character is moved from the fighting rank and can NOT fight or pass his Ld to the unit (pretty much like all characters not in the front rank).
After that combat phase, ie when Break/Panic tests and flee/pursue moves have been made, the character returns to his previous position.

Threch
12-11-2005, 17:02
Am I the only one who thinks the entire chalange system is stupid? I like the idea of chalanges, but the fact that there is no chance what so ever that a leader can stand his ground and fight as he is trained when someone points at him is absurd to me. If I have trained for years with my troops, drilled in formation for hour after hour, why is there no chance I can actualy fight like this unless my enemy decides I can?

In my opinion the chalange rules have WAY too much domination of the melee phase. I would like to see something allong the lines of characters that refuse chalanges being able to make a LD check to not ignore all his training, freak out, and run just because someone slaped him with a glove.

Festus
12-11-2005, 17:05
Hi

Is there a page reference for that? As I can see it being really useful from time to time, and I know it's the kinda thing I'll be asked to prove :D. Ta!
I think you meant me...

...if so, go here: http://uk.games-workshop.com/chronicles/commentary-resolution/1/


One source of contention that has been brought to my attention is the order in which you should calculate combat results and make subsequent Break tests. This is because Generals and Battle Standards can break and flee, which could mean that nearby friendly troops would not be able to use their special rules. Personally, I always treat Combat Resolution as simultaneous, so that if a unit was within range of a General or Battle Standard after all combats were fought (but before troops break and flee) then they use the associated benefits. By the same token, rallying is worked out the same way, so you can't test to rally your General first and then allow nearby units to use his Leadership to rally in the same turn.

I am pretty positive that this was published in WD sometimes, can't remember seeing it in the Chronicles, though.

Greetings
Festus

Festus
12-11-2005, 17:11
Hi

Am I the only one who thinks the entire chalange system is stupid? I like the idea of chalanges, but the fact that there is no chance what so ever that a leader can stand his ground and fight as he is trained when someone points at him is absurd to me. If I have trained for years with my troops, drilled in formation for hour after hour, why is there no chance I can actualy fight like this unless my enemy decides I can?
You seem to be mixing up unit leaders and unit champions here.

WHFB is a game of *heroic* fantasy, with mighty warriors fighting it out. The rules try to simulate this approach, and they do so successfully IMO.

The unit's leader is a simple model in the unit (units modeled in previous editions had often both, a Leader and a Champion), the champion is *the best warrior* of the unit, and takes pride in his prowess.

Greetings
Festus

mageith
12-11-2005, 18:42
WHFB is a game of *heroic* fantasy, with mighty warriors fighting it out. The rules try to simulate this approach, and they do so successfully IMO.

Heroic fantasy? Skaven? Dark Elves? Tomb Kings? Orcs? Necromancers? Why is every hero and wizard held to the same standard of 'heroicness'? Not all armies don't hold their heroes to the level of Bretonnian bravery.

The challenge system, as we have it now, is too simplistic.

Ith

Festus
12-11-2005, 20:51
Hi

The challenge system, as we have it now, is too simplistic.

Agreed (and wholeheartedly so), but I still see where it came from and I do see the underlying design principle in it.

The problem is, that challenges are just a rules mechanism now to make some combats develop differently.

IMO they should rather add to the narrative aspect of the game than to the rules-aspect.

Greetings
Festus

Threch
13-11-2005, 01:07
No, I am taking both unit leaders and heroes/lords into account in my comments about challenges.

Yeah, I have no problem with the concept of challenges. My main problem with them is they assume EVERYONE is a massive honor-bound hero and ALL troops will be shocked and disgusted if their leader fails to do a gentlemanly duel on command. I have no problem with a penalty for failing to accept a challenge, or a bonus for the unit that issues an unmet challenge, but total and utter panic or nothing seems to be a bit too dramatic. Unlike the majority of the other rules, the challenge system seems totally arbitrary and unrealistic.

I can't speak for everyone, but personally, if the guy I was taking orders from agreed to 'duel' an ancient chaos lord riding a two-headed dragon that just charged... well, unless he was wearing a Land Raider I would think he was nuts and would not likely follow the (few) commands he issued after that. :p

Festus
13-11-2005, 08:14
Hi

Yeah, I have no problem with the concept of challenges. My main problem with them is they assume EVERYONE is a massive honor-bound hero and ALL troops will be shocked and disgusted if their leader fails to do a gentlemanly duel on command. I have no problem with a penalty for failing to accept a challenge, or a bonus for the unit that issues an unmet challenge, but total and utter panic or nothing seems to be a bit too dramatic. Unlike the majority of the other rules, the challenge system seems totally arbitrary and unrealistic.
Somehow I don't understand your point :confused: ?
Where does *total and utter panic* take place?


I can't speak for everyone, but personally, if the guy I was taking orders from agreed to 'duel' an ancient chaos lord riding a two-headed dragon that just charged... well, unless he was wearing a Land Raider I would think he was nuts and would not likely follow the (few) commands he issued after that.
This IMO is not the stuff reality is made of, but the stuff movies aremade of. It is about the underdog stepping up to his doom, or the mighty hero looking for an equal foe to show his own prowess.

But it seems that we disgress.

The discussion becomes a Background or Rules Development one, and as such should be started over there again if you so feel.

Greetings
FEstus

oma
13-11-2005, 10:40
is it allowed to target who you challenge? i was under the impression that you the one acsepting/refuses the challenge chooses who must go into the challenge or who must leave the fight.. am i wrong here?

btw if a chaos lord mounted on a two headed chaos dragon and challenged, i would accsept... with a unit champion... (and yes my english sucks)

Threch
13-11-2005, 10:45
Yeah, we are getting a bit off topic here.

What I meant by 'total and utter panic' is that if a champion or character does not want to step aside and duel just because someone pointed at him and said, 'YOU!', his only option is to cut and run to the back of the unit and stop providing his leadership to his unit. I think it should be at least possible, not guaranteed but possible, for a champion/character to simply ignore the challenge to his ego and honor and fight as he wants. The fact that this is impossible simply because an enemy slaps you with a glove and says, 'great weapons at 10 paces!' seems silly and arbitrary, and this is why it bothers me.

But, yeah, this has little to do with the OP, so I'll shut up now. :D

Festus
13-11-2005, 10:53
Hi

is it allowed to target who you challenge? i was under the impression that you the one acsepting/refuses the challenge chooses who must go into the challenge or who must leave the fight.. am i wrong here?

It is a bit more complicated:

The one issuing the challenge nominates his character to take part.
Then the oponent nominates the one who accepts.

If he doesn't accept, the challenger chooses one of the oponents characters/champions eliglible to retreat from the fight.



btw if a chaos lord mounted on a two headed chaos dragon and challenged, i would accsept... with a unit champion... (and yes my english sucks)
I'd say it depends: Against a champion, this will be guaranteed +6CR (1 Wound + 5 Overkill).
if your Character is tough enough, he can avoid a bit of the damage maybe, making the dragon-mounted character losing the fight (against +5: 1 Standard, 1 Outnumber, 3 Ranks) and having a chance of taking it out for good :)

Greetings
Festus

Sanjuro
13-11-2005, 13:57
I'd say it depends: Against a champion, this will be guaranteed +6CR (1 Wound + 5 Overkill).
if your Character is tough enough, he can avoid a bit of the damage maybe, making the dragon-mounted character losing the fight (against +5: 1 Standard, 1 Outnumber, 3 Ranks) and having a chance of taking it out for good :)


I'd say he should still accept it with a unit champ - sure, it may or may not mean an automatic +6 CR for the dragon - but if he doesn't accept at all, the the lord+dragon is going to knock at least one rank off of that unit, lessening their chances to win against the dragon in following combat rounds.

Festus
13-11-2005, 16:10
Hi

Of course, you will have to accept the challenge to limit the Wounds actually suffered.
But sometimes it is more sensible if a character accepts:

If the Dragon-rider only manages to get in 5 or less wounds on the character who accepted, his sacrifice may still be worth it. As the Dragon boy will then lose combat...

Greetings
FEstus

Major Defense
14-11-2005, 03:55
Lets say that challenges could be discussed either in the terminology of rules or realism. In the latter I can see how some people might think that challenges are unrealistic but I want to assure you folks that you're not seeing them for what they would really be like in a real battle. Two characters do not stop the whole line and slap each other with gloves. In the fray of a battle those two would see each other leading their units toward each other and gravitate toward one another for the obvious reason that killing the adored leader of a unit of soldiers would serve to demoralize them and prove a champion's own prowess.

In segway to discussion of rules, I think that the overkill bonus is a great way to represent the psychological impact of skewering someone's leader. Challenges add to the complexity of a melee but I don't think that they threaten to ruin the fun of a game nearly as much as the magic system or the new 'loose formation' rule do. That said, I can see plenty of instances where the challenge system could end up having an absurd and unrealistic impact on the game, but fortunately me and my group have not yet run into anything so troubling.

Here's a funny idea that hasn't happened to me yet...say an elite unit of HE Swordmasters gets charged and challenged by a single WS7 character with six S5 attacks (leaving no armor save) and maybe a +1 to hit sword so that he is hitting and wounding on 2s. If our brave character rolls no 1s (quite possible, especially if he has hatred) he will get a CR of 6 against the unit's 4 (3 ranks, standard) and now they're making a break test on a 6 because one guy ran up to a unit of 20 soldiers and slayed the unit's leader?!?

Sounds absurd, doesn't it? Maybe we're just downplaying the significance of the overkill bonus. He didn't just slay the unit champion. He cut him into several pieces before the champion's great weapon hit the ground and sprayed his blood all over his friends. If the challenge were declined then he would have taken out six troopers without them having any chance to retaliate and that would certainly keep you from questioning the realism of them taking a break test.

I'm blathering just to see myself type. You get the idea tho. Challenges are rarely ever this extreme and when they are it is with merit that they have such a heavy impact on CR.

Festus
14-11-2005, 08:27
Hi


Here's a funny idea that hasn't happened to me yet...say an elite unit of HE Swordmasters gets charged and challenged by a single WS7 character with six S5 attacks (leaving no armor save) and maybe a +1 to hit sword so that he is hitting and wounding on 2s. If our brave character rolls no 1s (quite possible, especially if he has hatred) he will get a CR of 6 against the unit's 4 (3 ranks, standard) and now they're making a break test on a 6 because one guy ran up to a unit of 20 soldiers and slayed the unit's leader?!?

Sounds absurd, doesn't it?
No, it doesn't, as you forgot to figure something in:

1st the unit will still have the higher US, that is another +1 to CR, making the unit hold on an average 7, more than half of all the possible outcomes.

2nd, the chances of the character NOT scoring any ones are exceedingly slim. I am not a Maths genius, but just with the 6 rolls to wound, laws of probability tell us that there will be at least one one in there most of the time, the same goes for the six rolls to hit, although with haterd, this chance becomes slimmer...

So basically, we will have a CR of 5 for the Character (out of six attacks a good but still likely outcome) and 5 for the unit (3 Ranks, 1 Standard, ! Outnumber).

Guess what: The unit wins by 1 for its musician!

It doesn't matter whether the character can dish out 100 more Wounds, he can max win by 1, probably just manage a draw. And this is intentional: Characters shall not in combats by their own against units anymore. Herohammer is dead... (...OK, so Cavalryhammer is here, then :( )

Greetings
FEstus

Major Defense
14-11-2005, 14:33
the unit will still have the higher US, that is another +1 to CR

Ah! Good point. ;)


I am not a Maths genius...laws of probability tell us that...

Why would I do something like that, just rub my feet in Eddie's couch. I have better sense than that.....Yeah, I remember rubbing my feet in Eddie's couch.

As I said, with hatred you're probably not going to get any misses. I'm sure there are weapons and abilities that let some characters re-roll wounds. All of this is beside the point. Instead of picking apart the details of what I said, try getting the point that some crazy things can happen in a challenge.

Festus
14-11-2005, 15:20
Hi

try getting the point that some crazy things can happen in a challenge.
You are of course right.

I have seen my CD Lord on a Great Taurus be taken out by 6 Skeletons in a single turn:

They were summoned next to the flank of my Lord, then Vanhelsed into combat. They hit first (as they were charging) and killed the Taurus (Yes, 4 hits on 5 out of 6 rolls, 4 Wounds on 6, and 4 failed saves of 4+).
The CD Lord retaliated, killed 3 of them (to be expected out of 4 attacks), and lost the combat by 2. He fled automatically, as the fear-causing Skellies outnumbered and was cut down by the boney pursuers (not surprisingly: CDs flee 2D6-1")

So yes, crazy things can happen, whether in a challenge or not :)

Greetings
Festus

Threch
15-11-2005, 16:47
Sorry to veer back off topic but just wanted to answer what Major posted.

I do understand your vision of what a challenge is supposed to look like on the battle field, Major. I have no dispute with any of that. Of course I was being mostly humorous with the idea of glove slapping, I'm not proposing that every 1 on 1 duel in the history of mankind involved a glove. (Just the English ones. :D) I understand that they do not necessarily step out of their units to fight, but regardless, they both must insist that their troops do not hit a particular enemy while they fight 1v1, so this IS a simulation of an honor-bound duel regardless of where the models are located.

I have no problem with a system that includes challenges. I have no problem with a system that makes it desired to participate in a challenge and suffer if you loose. I understand that watching your sergeant die to a 6 hit combo and a Mortal Kombat finishing move from the enemy sergeant is pretty shocking and fear inspiring. The part of my argument that you are overlooking is that this has to happen EVERY time your enemy requests it. My problem is that it is completely impossible stand and fight normally unless your enemy decides you can. Do you really think that every single 'real' battle, or even the majority of 'real' battles, involved the leaders fighting one on one while insisting their troops stay out of it? I am no historian, but I would guess this is far rarer than it is common. I know I'm just repeating myself, but I still contend that it's silly that it is 100% impossible to stand and fight normally with your men unless your enemy decides you can.

Would a commander's men think more of him if he answered and won a challenge? Of course! Would they think less of a commander who did not agree with the enemy and demand that none of his troops hit the enemy commander as he personally took care of him? Perhaps. But it seems to me a large stretch to think that every single time such a duel request is made for an honor-bound duel that a hero/champion does not want to participate in, he has no choice but to agree to duel 1 on 1 or abandon his men.

I don't mind a serious penalty for refusing to answer a chalange (-2 LD penalty? -1 CR penalty?), I would prefer a bonus for the unit that issued an unmet challenge. (+2CR? Stubborn?) But, either way, the guaranteed temporary mental collapse of your commander seems to me a bit too steep a price to pay for not doing what your enemy tells you.

Also, it is also a little depressing that Assassins are virtualy unable to do their jobs for the most part due to this rule. What's the point of trying to sneak up on and assassinate an enemy general or wizard when you know he will somehow instantly throw his unit champion at you before you can strike then likely run you off on CR? What kind of assassin gives their enemy a chance to force them into a 1 on 1 honor-bound duel with someone he wasn't even targeting before he even gets a chance to swing? Nice stealth! :wtf:

Festus
15-11-2005, 18:56
Hi

Once again:

Unit champions are not meant to be the unit's leaders (at least not as far as the challenges are concerned, see the history of the challenge-rule through the editions for more information):

The unit's champion is the best warrior (or marksman) or whatever, taking pride in his prowess.
The unit's leader has the same statistics and characteristics as every other member of the unit.

If you do not choose a champion for your unit, is it leaderless then?

Greetings
Festus

Major Defense
15-11-2005, 19:00
I understand that they do not necessarily step out of their units to fight, but regardless, they both must insist that their troops do not hit a particular enemy while they fight 1v1, so this IS a simulation of an honor-bound duel regardless of where the models are located.

I don't envision that happening as you describe it. Leaders tend to lead so when two units clash it makes sense that the champions begin the combat locked in their challenge. To a lesser degree, challenges happen with each of the rank-and-file in a combat. It's just that they all have one wound and identical stats so you don't have a page of the BRB dedicated to it. As each soldier kills an enemy he moves on and attacks the next guy behind him - if he has more attacks that round. There are all sorts of complexities that we could add to a scenario to try to excentuate that this isn't real life but I'll stand by my opinion that while there might be game/mechanical reasons to hate challenges, they generally make sense and they happened all the time in real life medieval warfare.


Also, it is also a little depressing that Assassins are virtualy unable to do their jobs for the most part due to this rule. What's the point of trying to sneak up on and assassinate an enemy general or wizard when you know he will somehow instantly throw his unit champion at you before you can strike then likely run you off on CR? What kind of assassin gives their enemy a chance to force them into a 1 on 1 honor-bound duel with someone he wasn't even targeting before he even gets a chance to swing? Nice stealth! :wtf:

Now *here's* a good argument!! And about rules instead of realism. Yes, challenges ruin an assassin's ability to single out another character. But that's to be expected if he runs up to a ranked unit all by himself. They get the idea of what he's trying to do so the unit champion can simply step in front of the character and challenge the assassin.

Instead of running up on a gang of 20 like Jet Li, an assassin hiding in a unit with a champion can rank up to the target character and NOT issue a challenge. If the opponent issues a challenge with his champion you can just accept with yours and if he challenges with his character then you know what to do.

Festus
15-11-2005, 19:00
Hi

Also, it is also a little depressing that Assassins are virtualy unable to do their jobs for the most part due to this rule. What's the point of trying to sneak up on and assassinate an enemy general or wizard when you know he will somehow instantly throw his unit champion at you before you can strike then likely run you off on CR? What kind of assassin gives their enemy a chance to force them into a 1 on 1 honor-bound duel with someone he wasn't even targeting before he even gets a chance to swing? Nice stealth! :wtf:

There is a simple solution to that: Challenge with your champion or other character, and let him accept.

If he accepts with your target character: Good for you, as he will not make many kills and you can still kill him later.

If he accepts with his champion: Good for you, as you can then proceed to appear next to your target and make ground meat out of him.

Either way, it's a win-win-situation.

Challenges need finesse to work and to set up properly, especially if many champions/Heros/Lords are involved...

Greetings
Festus

Festus
15-11-2005, 19:03
Hi

Instead of running up on a gang of 20 like Jet Li, an assassin hiding in a unit with a champion can rank up to the target character and NOT issue a challenge. If the opponent issues a challenge with his champion you can just accept with yours and if he challenges with his character then you know what to do.
Another way to make things work out. :)
Nice thinking, mate...

Greetings
FEstus

Threch
15-11-2005, 21:14
I understand that they do not necessarily step out of their units to fight, but regardless, they both must insist that their troops do not hit a particular enemy while they fight 1v1, so this IS a simulation of an honor-bound duel regardless of where the models are located.



I don't envision that happening as you describe it. Leaders tend to lead so when two units clash it makes sense that the champions begin the combat locked in their challenge. To a lesser degree, challenges happen with each of the rank-and-file in a combat. It's just that they all have one wound and identical stats so you don't have a page of the BRB dedicated to it. As each soldier kills an enemy he moves on and attacks the next guy behind him - if he has more attacks that round. There are all sorts of complexities that we could add to a scenario to try to excentuate that this isn't real life but I'll stand by my opinion that while there might be game/mechanical reasons to hate challenges, they generally make sense and they happened all the time in real life medieval warfare.


I don't understand what you mean by not envisioning it happening as I describe it. Is this not exactly how the rules state it happens? One character becomes involved in a challenge with another character, and thus any near-by models which would normally be able to attack the two characters can not. What is preventing them from honoring this agreement with the other character if not the rule as I described it? In the quote you pasted I was talking about how the warhammer rules handle challenges, not how I expected they unfolded in real battles.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean about the rank and file models all having mini-challenges with each other. As I understand the warhammer rules rank and file models are free to direct their attacks against any model in base to base contact with them, such as a specific enemy character or champion. More than one rank and file model can direct their attacks against the same character/champion, thus they are not forced to attack the model in front of them and then the one behind it unless they choose to.

I don't think your really adressing my complaint. While I may not agree, I never said it was unrealistic that champions 'tend' to duel when an enemy champion asks for a 1 on 1 fight. I said it is unrealistic that it is 'impossible' for them to refuse to fight 1 on 1 without running. I said I think it is silly a character has 0.00% chance of fighting 'normally' (such as the warhammer rules describe, choosing a model in base to base contact and attacking it,) because of nothing more than an enemies desire to fight 1 on 1. I think there is a big difference between things 'tending' to happen and things being 'forced' to happen. Duels, Challenges, whatever you want to call them, it's the fact that in warhammer they are forced and virtually un-refusable that makes me think they are un-fun, un-tactical, and unrealistic.

Good points on how to successfully use the Assassin as its current rules work. That would probably perform well assuming you can get the unit into combat with the target. Still many of the Assassin's skills and items, such as smoke bombs and Clan Eschin skitterleap, can only be used when the assassin is attacking solo. But, thats just the Assassin's problem I guess, and isn't really relevant to what we were talking about, so I'm not sure why I brought it up. Since it is also not directly relevant, and obviously I have typed more than my fair share on this subject, I won't bring up how I don't like that mounted characters bring 2 separate attackers/targets into a '1 on 1' challenge, particularly in the case of dragon riders. :p

mageith
16-11-2005, 02:19
Duels, Challenges, whatever you want to call them, it's the fact that in warhammer they are forced and virtually un-refusable that makes me think they are un-fun, un-tactical, and unrealistic.

Keep on keeping on.

Festus
16-11-2005, 08:55
hi

Still many of the Assassin's skills and items, such as smoke bombs and Clan Eschin skitterleap, can only be used when the assassin is attacking solo. But, thats just the Assassin's problem.
On the point of suicide assassins (those engaging a character within a unit on their own):

Characters can only accept a challenge, if they are in base-contact with an enemy model.

If you are charging the enemy unit on your own, just make sure that the only character/champion model your asassin touches is the character in question.
(He will probably refuse, let you kill a few troopers and then you break due to a heavy CR against you, though)

Greetings
Festus

T10
16-11-2005, 09:32
(He will probably refuse, let you kill a few troopers and then you break due to a heavy CR against you, though)


Well, he can't "refuse" if no challenge is issued. So, if your assassin doesn't issue a challenge, the character in question can either issue one himself (and die) or not (and die).

-T10

Festus
16-11-2005, 09:42
Hi

Yes, he can indeed choose not challenge at all.

But I was under the impression that certain bonusses only are allowed in a challenge.
If not, there is no point in challenging the leader, then.

Greetings
Festus

T10
16-11-2005, 11:55
Trelch: Bear in mind that "leading by example" is very much a part of the Warhammer mindset. If the General didn't want to expose himself to cannon, magic and some guy shouting "Who's Orc enough to face me?" then he should be in his tent, directing the battle from afar.

You may consider it a bit odd that a Wizard or Engineer would be compelled to fight Archaon in close combat, but then again, they DON'T HAVE TO.

If you end up in a situation where your character is offered a challenge and the only one that can accept is even worse at combat than your average trooper, then you can simply REFUSE and have that character moved to a rear rank.

Nobody's going to think less of you for hiding your weedy Wizard in the rear rank.

-T10

Major Defense
16-11-2005, 17:59
Characters can only accept a challenge, if they are in base-contact with an enemy model.

"Note that in order to participate in a challenge, either to issue it or to meet it, a character must be fighting in combat already. This means that the model must actually be positioned base-to-base against an enemy model. A character who is not already fighting, for example because he is in the front of a formation which has been attacked in the rear, cannot take part in a challenge." - pg99

Festus
16-11-2005, 19:21
Erm...yes...

...that's exactly what I said ???

(or am I missing a point here?)

Major Defense
16-11-2005, 21:15
Sorry. Typing while tired. I guess the point I was supposed to make was about this...


If you are charging the enemy unit on your own, just make sure that the only character/champion model your asassin touches is the character in question.

You would have to be a 20mm assassin charging a 25mm character to prevent touching the character/champion on either side of them. Corners count.

Yeah, that was more coherent.

neXus6
16-11-2005, 22:31
Bear in mind that "leading by example" is very much a part of the Warhammer mindset. If the General didn't want to expose himself to cannon, magic and some guy shouting "Who's Orc enough to face me?" then he should be in his tent, directing the battle from afar.

That's why people who accept challenges with unit champions instead of their heros annoy me. Not very heroic or lord like that, "Sergeant Johan if you would be so kind as to deal with that chaos lord while I stab these marauders."

Hmm...a bit off topic but if a unit with a champion and a character gets challenged can you choose to refuse the challenge with the champion and get him sent to the back?
It was just a thought that occured to me, I always stand and fight even if it means my character is going to be bent over and violated by the enemy, but I know pleanty of people who don't.
Damn my sense of honour, atleast in wargames.:p

Mad Makz
16-11-2005, 23:07
Nexus66, your opponent chooses who refuses the challenge if you opt to refuse (with the exception of Skaven, then the Skaven player refusing get's to choose, because self-preservation is the skaven motto.).

T10
17-11-2005, 05:47
That's why people who accept challenges with unit champions instead of their heros annoy me. Not very heroic or lord like that, "Sergeant Johan if you would be so kind as to deal with that chaos lord while I stab these marauders."


Chaos Lord: "Is there no-one man enough to face me?"

Captain Schmerz: "Well, rather!"

Seargent Schmö: "Allow me, Sir. I'll deal with this upstart "**** of the End Times! Hey! Archbald! I slept with your mother! Those daemonettes got nothing on her!"

Chaos Lord (sighs): "..."


-T10

neXus6
17-11-2005, 15:53
Thanks Mad Makz, I didn't have my rule book on me so I couldn't check so I thought I might as well ask.

Yeah T10 that's pretty much it exactly. :(
Mind you if you get your character positioned in a unit right so that you don't need to challenge you have to love the look on your opponents face as he is all ready to accept with the champion, and you don't and just direct attacks onto his character. :p

Festus
17-11-2005, 17:47
Hi

Sorry. Typing while tired. I guess the point I was supposed to make was about this...
Ok, I will let you off the hook this time ;)



You would have to be a 20mm assassin charging a 25mm character to prevent touching the character/champion on either side of them. Corners count.
This is not the case: If you charge a unit, you will not have to line up exactly corner to corner to the enemy.
Sometimes this will not even be possible due to other restrictions (space, range, etc.)
You can line up anyway you want. so even as a 25mm Assassin (there is no such thing, they are all 20mm, but let's assume for the sake of the argument) can touch only two 20mm troopers, of which one will be a character OR champion, the other will be a regular trooper.

Greetings
FEstus

Major Defense
17-11-2005, 18:27
I'm going to skip pointing out that in the case of all 20mm or all 25mm models involved, a single model is going to be in contact with three enemies when charging a unit because most players aren't foolish enough to put a weak character on the end of a unit's frontage where he could possibly get charged alone. Oops, I guess I didn't skip that after all.


This is not the case: If you charge a unit, you will not have to line up exactly corner to corner to the enemy.
Sometimes this will not even be possible due to other restrictions (space, range, etc.)
You can line up anyway you want. so even as a 25mm Assassin (there is no such thing, they are all 20mm, but let's assume for the sake of the argument) can touch only two 20mm troopers, of which one will be a character OR champion, the other will be a regular trooper.

Please point out a rule even suggesting that a charging unit or model can choose how they want to rank up. All I have read indicates that they move as directly as possible toward the target, wheeling once if needed. Also, the closest (or only) character in a charging unit must charge the closest model in the target unit. I could go on and on and get myself dragged into another rules-quotes-battle (see umpteen threads about uber-wheeling) but I would rather simply say that you can't do that.

Festus
17-11-2005, 20:07
Hi

Go on as long as you wish, my old friend... ;)
You say yourself that you do not wheel so as to make bases exactly cover each other, you make contact on the shortest route.
This will usually result in battle lines which are not exactly flush.

So one model (of the same base size as A or smaller) will usually touch only two enemy models regardless. Even at a slightly larger base size (20 to 25mm for example) this still holds true.

With equal bases, you will only ever touch three enemy models if your base is exactly lined up with the enemy's base.

Therefore only two models in base-to-base-contact, I am afraid.

(if you still do not believe me, break out your little toysoldiers and try for yourself... :( )

As to


Also, the closest (or only) character in a charging unit must charge the closest model in the target unit.

This is nowhere in the rules.
First: A Character doesn't have any influence on how the unit charges: He is simply another member of the unit (Yes, even with different base-sizes).
Second: Usually movement is done by units, not by models. This holds true with all ranked units.

You are thinking of Skirmishers here, obviously, where charging is done by models, not by units. With ranked up units you simply move the unit towards its intended target and you may wheel up to once on your way.

BTW, the rules don't tell you to charge on the shortest possible route, but on the route that brings the most attackers into contact. This may well be everything but the shortest route.

Festus

PS
Major Defense - and please don't bring the so-called Über-wheeling into the debate here.
First, we both know that we don't agree on this one, so no use in arguing over it again and again.
Second, noone is talking about it here. We simply assume that all wheels are made to the posters relevant preferences without being concerned about the finer technicalities of the charge.

Major Defense
17-11-2005, 21:24
Go on as long as you wish, my old friend... ;)

Don't call me friend. You're the closest thing that this forum has to a troll and you're bad at that with all of these creepy PMs you send me.

Please point out a rule even suggesting that a charging unit or model can choose how they want to rank up.

Atrahasis
17-11-2005, 21:36
Festus can be stubborn, but he is no troll.

In this case he is correct - as long as the charging unit brings as many charging models into base contact with enemy as possible, it can align to any point of the enemy unit. A single model on a 20mm base, even when facing enemy on 20mm bases, can charge so as to only come into contact with 2 enemy, and can do so against any 2 models in the arc he must charge.

neXus6
17-11-2005, 22:04
Yep, which is nice. Though it does mean that sometime you can't get characters into contact with each other, there is a high chance. Mind you I only ever use "base contact" targeting when I'm playing someone who I know will refuse a challenge. I like seeing heroic single combat to much. :)

Wintermute
17-11-2005, 22:20
Can I just remind everyone this is a discussion thread. Please keep your posts civil and ensure you adhere to the Forum Posting Rules.

If you object to a comment made in a post, or in a Private Message, report the post or PM.

Wintermute
The Mod Team

Festus
18-11-2005, 10:04
Hi

Festus can be stubborn, but he is no troll.
Thank you.

I try hard not to be too stubborn, though...

...it seems I am failing here. But I will try harder.

Greetings
Festus