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max the dog
31-08-2008, 22:57
Based on a pure size comparison 40K warships seem to fare pretty well vrs most other fictional warships. Only a few like the Star Wars Super Star Destroyer and (of course) the Death Star seem to have an edge on it.

While the Star Trek warships may be more advanced I don't think that they could suffer the firepower an Imperial Battleship could dish out nor do I think that they could do much damage to it. The Borg could probably make it suffer but in the end they too would go down.

Overall I'd say an Imperial battle fleet could take on any other fictional warship fleet and win. Even the Empire in Star Wars would eventually fall before it.

What are your opinions?

http://www.merzo.net/index.html

Kage2020
31-08-2008, 23:05
Comparing different game universes is, in my opinion, ultimately futile. They're based on different assumptions in terms of the physics, military science, etc. For example, 40k military science barely dredges itself out of the 17th century... :eyebrows:

Sorry if this sounds negative.

Kage

Lord Malorne
31-08-2008, 23:07
I think they would indeed have an advantage but not when replicator ships start showing up...being boarded by those is game over!

Khaine's Messenger
31-08-2008, 23:12
I'd suggest swinging by spacebattles or stardestroyer.net if you want a better discussion. I know both have active threads and communities working on such projects. While you might get some here, a lot of the posters here aren't big "numbers" guys and prefer a more narrative bent. One look at GW's stated "numbers" for a lot of things can net a few sighs of frustration.


Overall I'd say an Imperial battle fleet could take on any other fictional warship fleet and win.

The Imperium suffers more logistical issues than firepower issues. It can take days to weeks to months to travel in open space inside a star system, and traveling from one side of the galaxy to the other can take a while because their FTL system can be a crap shoot. It's this more than anything that hurts most "vs." comparisons. If you want to bring up firepower, though, you start getting into how 40k's exotic defensive and weapon systems "work."

Of course, you might want to qualify "any." There are some pretty powerful alien civs in fiction, like the Culture or the Xeelee.

Gimp
31-08-2008, 23:15
Comparing different game universes is, in my opinion, ultimately futile. They're based on different assumptions in terms of the physics, military science, etc. For example, 40k military science barely dredges itself out of the 17th century... :eyebrows:

Sorry if this sounds negative.

Kage

Well it is futile its still really really really fun.

I never got into Star Wars or Star Trek but from what I have seen I think the Imperial Navy would win.

Imgine a Space Marine 1st Company boarding a Star Trek ship. I can just imagine Blood Angels or Black Templars or Salamanders running down the corridors of the Enterprise with Bolter, Chainswords and Flamers. Classic :D

Norminator
31-08-2008, 23:18
Well it is futile its still really really really fun.

I never got into Star Wars or Star Trek but from what I have seen I think the Imperial Navy would win.

Imgine a Space Marine 1st Company boarding a Star Trek ship. I can just imagine Blood Angels or Black Templars or Salamanders running down the corridors of the Enterprise with Bolter, Chainswords and Flamers. Classic :D

"Set phasers to stun!"
"Set flamers to hot and crispy!"

max the dog
01-09-2008, 01:00
Comparing different game universes is, in my opinion, ultimately futile. They're based on different assumptions in terms of the physics, military science, etc. For example, 40k military science barely dredges itself out of the 17th century... :eyebrows:

Sorry if this sounds negative.

Kage

Yes it does. Start being fun and tell us that if your bookshelf collapsed and novels collide what fictional warfleet would win the battle.

Kage2020
01-09-2008, 01:03
The one that was better written? ;) <grin>

Kage

DapperAnarchist
01-09-2008, 01:03
Culture. Though, having not yet read any of the Xeelee books...

Koryphaus
01-09-2008, 02:01
This thread came up a few months ago, Warhammer Vs Star Trek I think. It was great fun while it lasted (which was a lot longer than most of us expected!


I never got into Star Wars or Star Trek but from what I have seen I think the Imperial Navy would win. Imgine a Space Marine 1st Company boarding a Star Trek ship. I can just imagine Blood Angels or Black Templars or Salamanders running down the corridors of the Enterprise with Bolter, Chainswords and Flamers. Classic :D

It would be classic, but the humanitarian streak of the Salamanders would scupper that one. Too many civilians on the Enterprise!


"Set phasers to stun!" "Set flamers to hot and crispy!"

Wait till they set phasers to maximum, and vapourise your terminators.. Not even any dust left over. And that is just the cuddly, make-friends-not-enemies, inspiration for Tau's greater good United Federation of Planets. Wait until you meet someone that is really, really, mean.

Like Species 8472. You can't board their ships. They don't die to conventional weapons. And just 8-10 ships (and not even big ones..) of theirs will kill a planet (litterally blow it apart) with no trouble at all. Only need 1 shot.

RapidKiller
01-09-2008, 03:32
Like Species 8472. You can't board their ships. They don't die to conventional weapons. And just 8-10 ships (and not even big ones..) of theirs will kill a planet (litterally blow it apart) with no trouble at all. Only need 1 shot.

So... that hasn't really stopped the Imperium before, and one imperal ship can blow apart a planet in one shot.

Anyways i would like to point this out Link (http://www.merzo.net/), it has the relative sizes of many different ships from many different universes

Hellebore
01-09-2008, 03:39
The USS Chuck Norris beats everything.

Hellebore

Bretonnian Lord
01-09-2008, 03:57
Indeed, in arguments like this, Chuck Norris is always the trump card. :D

olmsted
01-09-2008, 05:45
depends on whos nerd rage is more powerful.

Clockwork-Knight
01-09-2008, 06:33
A battlefleet consisting of a fleet of heroes battling for ultimate destiny in the ultimate showdown can beat the USS Chuck Norris.

The only ship that will survive will be USS Mr. Rogers.

LexxBomb
01-09-2008, 06:38
I think the SDF1 Macross would woop any Imperial battleship from 40k... release the valkeries

Clockwork-Knight
01-09-2008, 06:49
The Tardis alone can destroy the entire 40k-verse. Second in combat capabilities of the Time Lords of Galifrey are the nefarious Daleks, with their super-creation-destroying crucible. :p

LexxBomb
01-09-2008, 06:53
and here way I thinking that the greatest weapon the Daleks created was the Reality Bomb

Clockwork-Knight
01-09-2008, 07:14
It's the same thing. The reality-destroying superwave was created from the crucible. :p

BriareosDX
01-09-2008, 07:18
The sad thing is that I'm not even a Star Trek Fan. That said, in ship-to-ship battles, of all the sci-fi fleets I've ever read about, the Federation wins. Here's why: They can fight at Faster-Than-Light speeds.

Think about that. Taken just on that alone, the battle is the Federation's to lose. No one else could even touch them. The battle would be over as your ships have been cut to ribbons before your sensors even could tell you you're in a fight. Actually, that might be a weakness. If the Imperium's psykers could accurately predict the attack, they might be able to set a trap. But considering the accuracy of most imperial psykers, it seems unlikely. Much more likely would be that whoever's writing for the Federation forgets all the insane things they can do and they have to be saved at the last minute when Wesley Crusher figures out how to negate Imperial power-fields using this week's special guest particle.

Of course, this being the Imperium, once they realized that they were losing in deep space, they'd just start detonating Federation planets.

But all that aside, Dr. Who wins.

Koryphaus
01-09-2008, 07:24
So... that hasn't really stopped the Imperium before, and one imperal ship can blow apart a planet in one shot.

Anyways i would like to point this out Link (http://www.merzo.net/), it has the relative sizes of many different ships from many different universes

But these are little ships, not top-line battleships. Well, the Planet Killer can, duno what else. Nova cannon?

Interesting link. Does the page actually say anything? Not being argumentative, just wondering if I've missed a link on the page.. :confused:

Hellebore
01-09-2008, 07:38
Warp jump to Federation homeworld.
Deploy cyclonic torpedoes.
Win.

Although Federation ships can travel at FTL speeds, they can't jump from one side of the galaxy to the other like 40k ships can. 40k ships could jump right on top of Federation stations and staging points and destroy them. It was supposed to take the Voyager 70 years to get back to the Alpha quadrant (one of the segmentae of the galaxy) at max power. The same trip would take an Imperial ship a few months or maybe years.


Also, instigating a warp jump next to a planet causes catastrophic effects. 40k ships thus only warp at the edge of a solar system. The ships then doesn't even have to use weapons, they simply warp into orbit and then warp out again, destroying the population in the process.

In the end though, 40k ships have a lot more plot power than other scifi ships, simply because the limitations of ST, SW, etc ships have been written out in excruciating detail in spec books. If a 40k ship needs to do something, the author makes it happen.

Hellebore

Koryphaus
01-09-2008, 07:57
Warp jump to Federation homeworld.
Deploy cyclonic torpedoes.
Win.


Earth? The same planet that happens to be Ancient Terra? Good plan.


In the end though, 40k ships have a lot more plot power than other scifi ships, simply because the limitations of ST, SW, etc ships have been written out in excruciating detail in spec books. If a 40k ship needs to do something, the author makes it happen.

Hellebore

Pretty good point there Hellebore, I think that that wins the thread.

Hellebore
01-09-2008, 08:05
Earth? The same planet that happens to be Ancient Terra? Good plan.


Then the federation and Imperium couldn't fight each other, because they both exist in the same space. So if you hypothetically combine both universes so that the federation and Imperium exist sidebyside then you can have the fight.

Hellebore

Clockwork-Knight
01-09-2008, 08:15
Imperial ships can't warp into the vicinity of a planetary orbit. Star Trek-Warp drives (not to be confused with Warp-drives of the Wh40k-verse) can do that.

If we are to compare at least both universe, the ST-FTL-travel-method is like a sprinter in the olympic games, whereas the Warp-chaos-travel-method used by the Imperium in Wh40k would more be akin to a marathon-walker, who sometimes gets attacked by rabbid dogs (daemons) while going to his destination.

And then, there's Star Wars, where they can travel to the end of the galaxy in less than one week. They're like the Flash, who's got the Speed Force, and and beats up the crap out of anybody.

The ultimate traveling masters are of course the galifreyan Time Lords, who travel back in time and have arrived there before you even knew that you wanted to fight there, and perhaps the Daleks, who aren't that precise, but also can enter your past, or your future, where you already died out. :p

LexxBomb
01-09-2008, 08:18
The sad thing is that I'm not even a Star Trek Fan. That said, in ship-to-ship battles, of all the sci-fi fleets I've ever read about, the Federation wins. Here's why: They can fight at Faster-Than-Light speeds.

Think about that. Taken just on that alone, the battle is the Federation's to lose. No one else could even touch them. The battle would be over as your ships have been cut to ribbons before your sensors even could tell you you're in a fight. Actually, that might be a weakness. If the Imperium's psykers could accurately predict the attack, they might be able to set a trap. But considering the accuracy of most imperial psykers, it seems unlikely. Much more likely would be that whoever's writing for the Federation forgets all the insane things they can do and they have to be saved at the last minute when Wesley Crusher figures out how to negate Imperial power-fields using this week's special guest particle.

Of course, this being the Imperium, once they realized that they were losing in deep space, they'd just start detonating Federation planets.

But all that aside, Dr. Who wins.

um no... they cannot engage in combat at faster then light speeds. in star trek wartp speep is possible because it makes it own worm hole (see first star trek movie)

there has never been a shot of a star trek ship firing while in warp.

impulse flight is what they call sub light speed.

if you want proof that they cannot travel faster then light just watch any clip of a ship comming out of warp speed. if it was actually traveling faster then light (by not using a worm hole) then as the ship comes to a stop you would also see it traveling away from you in the direction that it came from. think doppler effect and your on the right direction

Koryphaus
01-09-2008, 08:41
um no... they cannot engage in combat at faster then light speeds. in star trek wartp speep is possible because it makes it own worm hole (see first star trek movie)

there has never been a shot of a star trek ship firing while in warp.

impulse flight is what they call sub light speed.

if you want proof that they cannot travel faster then light just watch any clip of a ship comming out of warp speed. if it was actually traveling faster then light (by not using a worm hole) then as the ship comes to a stop you would also see it traveling away from you in the direction that it came from. think doppler effect and your on the right direction

Woops..

Firstly, in Star Trek, vessels enter a dimension called subspace, which is how they get around relativity. They do not use create wormholes, these are natural phenomena (with the exception of the Bajoran Wormwhole, which was created by a race of incorporeal beings to serve as their home). The only race which does create something akin to wormwholes are the Borg, who use technology to open transwarp conduits (in a similar vein to the Webway, if you will). In the Star Trek I (The Motion Picture) the wormhole effect occurs because of a problem with the warpdrives. Note that there is a a comet in the wormhole, so make of that what you will.

There are inumerable shots of combat taking place at warp speed. Torpedoes in Startrek contain warpdrives, allowing them to utilise subspace and avoid relativity problems in the same manner as vessels. They are more than capable of keeping up with a vessel, though they will run out of fuel before too long. What cannot occur at warpspeed is the firing of Phasers, which are directed energy weapons. These cannot be fired whilst moving faster than light, because it is light, and thus moves more slowly than the ship.

Proof that they cannot travel fast than light? It's a fictional universe. It doesn't even exist! Don't try to apply real world physics to it, any more than you would try to apply real world physics to Warhammer 40000.

While we're on the subject of other fictional space craft/universes, has anybody else played "Sins of a Solar Empire"? What did you think of it? I've only played a demo version of it.

Faustburg
01-09-2008, 10:34
There are inumerable shots of combat taking place at warp speed.

Hmm... if it is "inumerable" ammount of instances, would you mind giving us at least one? ("in TNG S4 episode...."

Because, while not beingn that a massive ST fan, I enjoy the show it I think I have a fair chunk of all episodes, all series, and I can't remember any battles in Warp Speed...

Not saying you are wrong, but give us at least one example...

ChrisMurray
01-09-2008, 10:38
Star trek ships don't enter subspace-unless you're refering to the transwarp conduits used by the borg which can travel from one side of the galaxy to the other in like an hour! A ST ships warp nacels (sp?) generate a warp buble around the ship making it lighter and then propelling it somehow-can't remember how but they are in real space the whole time. Inercial Dampening field stop the massive g's\gavitanal pull on the ship\crew inside.

There are many times in star trek that weopons (mainly photon\quantom torpedoes) have been used at warp speed.

In a fight I'd have to go with the Borg to win as after the first shot (or before if they can scan your tech) your shots will have no effect on them, where as they're weopons adapt to penetrate your defences after the first couple of shots.

WH40k ships might pack alot of firepower but they're so big and cumbersome that other fictonal uneverse's ships whould out manover them avoiding being hit.


edit:

Just saw the post above, so I'll give an example. The episode where they first encounter the borg. When they flee they fire at the borg ship (even at near maximum speed-warp 9.4ish)

2nd edit:

Here's official detailsof star trek warp systems:

warp engines are fueled by the reaction of matter (deuterium) and antimatter (antideuterium), mediated through an assembly of dilithium crystals, which are nonreactive with antimatter when subjected to high-frequency electromagnetic fields. This reaction produces a highly energetic plasma, called electro-plasma, which is channeled by magnetic conduits through the electro-plasma system (EPS). The warp plasma is funneled to plasma injectors into a series of warp field coils, usually located in remote warp nacelles. These coils are composed of verterium cortenide and generate the warp field

A warp field is the means by which a warp drive propels a starship at faster-than-light (or warp) speeds. Generated by field coils, usually found in nacelles, the field surrounds the ship asymmetrically, which causes the space within it to accelerate.

The warp field is a subspace displacement which warps space around the vessel, allowing it to "ride" on a distortion and travel faster than the speed of light. (ENT: "Cold Front")



And then here's a little snippet from torpedoes which shows that they can be fitted to fire faster then light:

The maximum effective range of a torpedo depends on its type. Range is dependent on propulsion and acquisition capabilities. Propulsion is categorized basically by whether the torpedo is warp-capable or uses another method of propulsion.

Koryphaus
01-09-2008, 10:52
Star trek ships don't enter subspace

My bad, I mis-remembered an explanation in one of the novels. You are correct, they remain in realspace at all times and obviously interact with object in realspace.

Edit. Here is the exact scene (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXvi8uD8qYY&feature=related) chrismurray mentioned.

Charax
01-09-2008, 11:18
...and in the Voyager episode Hope and Fear they fire on a ship while travelling at faster than Warp speed

...and in The Motion Picture, don't they fire on an asteroid while at Warp speed?

I think it's fairly safe to say that Star Trek vessels can engage in combat while travelling at faster-than-light speeds.

aim
01-09-2008, 11:46
This discussions kind of degrded thanks to the rabbid Star Treck fanboys, who do tend to defend their favourite sci-fi like zealots. I've actually watch all the way through voyager and quite liked it, however I'm under no delusion that you can take the physics of star treck seriously enough to compare it with other things... I mean, crazy-space-physics-voodoo making you de-evolve if you travel faster than warp 10? ok then......

Koryphaus
01-09-2008, 12:17
This discussions kind of degrded thanks to the rabbid Star Treck fanboys, who do tend to defend their favourite sci-fi like zealots.

Thank you aim. I love it when you call me a fanboy. Especially the bit where you say I'm rabid.

All I and others have done is present some reasonable arguments and take part in the discussion sensibly and maturely.


I've actually watch all the way through voyager and quite liked it, however I'm under no delusion that you can take the physics of star treck seriously enough to compare it with other things... I mean, crazy-space-physics-voodoo making you de-evolve if you travel faster than warp 10? ok then......

... Such as comparing it to 40? Crazy-space-physics-voodoo...

aim
01-09-2008, 13:40
Chaos space physics voodoo is exactly that, Fantasy style Gods and Demons. Star Trek is ment to be fiction based on actual physics and science, not Gods and Demons and Sourcery.

-EDIT-

You know what, I'm not getting dragged any further into this argument because I've seen them on thousands of internet threads with everything from star treck/starwars to ninterndo/microsoft/sony and all that happens is a downwards spiral of arguing about x persons favourite being better than y persons favourite because they said so.

Clockwork-Knight
01-09-2008, 13:48
Which is the proof that VS-threads shouldn't be allowed anywhere safe dedicated message boards for exactly that kind of topic. Of course, it's not that Wh40k ever had big chances against the other established scifi-franchises, and Wh40k does barely qualify for scifi, being even more crazy and real-world physics-defying than Star Wars, which was one of the primary inspiration for the zanny Wh40k-verse in the first place. :D

horizon
01-09-2008, 13:49
Merzo net should scale those bfg ships down.

RCgothic
01-09-2008, 13:54
Then leave the thread to those who enjoy taking part, Aim. It's that simple.

Star Trek ships do have one advantage. High sublight velocities. W40k ships are superior in every other way. The defiant is protected by armour less than a metre thick and takes direct fire from a fleet of warships in DS9: The Changing Face of Evil for several minutes before being destroyed. Imperial armour is hundreds of metres thick in some places. I don't think a star trek ship would even be capable of getting past the void sheilds, let alone do any significant damage.

Clockwork-Knight
01-09-2008, 14:00
Sure they would. If a phaser is capable to desintegrate (not putting a hole, but de-atomizing, even more impressive than Necron Gauss-flaying) solid rocks and penetrate a planetary crust to where the molten layer begins, then it has enough energy in it to do damage to any void-shield, and to destroy the armaplasteel-hulls of the mighty imperial battleships. In terms of firepower, both sides are at least equal.

bassmasterliam
01-09-2008, 14:13
A X303 with asgard plasma weapons would merk any imperial navy ship.

Master Stark
01-09-2008, 14:23
The sad thing is that I'm not even a Star Trek Fan. That said, in ship-to-ship battles, of all the sci-fi fleets I've ever read about, the Federation wins. Here's why: They can fight at Faster-Than-Light speeds.

Well, it hinges on how phasers interact with shields.

If shields are phaser resistant, then a Star Trek ship can whiz around as fast as it wants. It'd be like a mosquito trying to attack a turtle. But if phasers obliterate shields like they can regular matter, than it's game set and match to Star Trek.

Killgore
01-09-2008, 14:30
StarTrek i find is far to Sci-fi for its own good, a popular arguement about Voyager is that they use their magical science to get out of everything, each ship is like Mc Gyver on crack..... boring!


A real matchup would be Battlestar galactica V 40k

with the exception of the largest 40k ships it would be very interesting to see how the likes of Cylon base stars and Colonial Battlestars with their missile vollys and mass of attack craft can see off similar size imperial vessels

Koryphaus
01-09-2008, 14:34
Battlestar Galactica..

Never had the chance to watch that show. Is it any good? I'll get around to it one day. I suppose you can buy the dvd sets in most places?

leo_neil316
01-09-2008, 14:37
Okay first off, star wars looses. The can't shoot at things until their 2km away for some silly reason. Thats anti ordinance weapons on 40k ships and stupid by star trek standards too. Even if they always seem to engage point blank.

Star trek torpedo's can be fired while warping. Phasers and disruptors -can't-. Shields on star trek and 40k ships both work differently but do the same thing. The only real difference I can think of is you can tune your guns to the same frequency as star trek shields and suddenly they ain't there.

While star trek ships can move in and out of warpspeed theres a couple of problems with it. For one your suddenly moving at warp speed. Yeah the other guy can't see you anymore. But -you've- moved a couple of hundred miles in the same time. An imperial ship can just drop into the warp for a similar affect, without having to move.

Then you have guns. Star trek ships have a few guns that don't just auto disintigrate everything. Otherwise ships would never survive hits with their shields down they still put armour on the things. Imperial ships are several orders of magnitude larger (a cobra class destroyer is the size of a romulan warbird, which is big enough for any enterprise to fly through). The imperial ships do precision strikes. Imperial ships blow up the area of space your in.

Basically the only race that has a shot is the borg. And their screwed aswell (what with their 'we don't bother shielding against projectiles' attitude)

Also, anything post breman and bragga making the borg stupid and weak didn't happen. Especially the bug things.

Clockwork-Knight
01-09-2008, 14:40
Ehrm, actually, all scifi-universes can't really aim. Star Wars, Star Trek, Warhammer 40k, Battlestar Galactica (Moore version), even Babylon 5. Every gunner is some kind of mental deficient guy, like that dude from Space Balls. :D

olmsted
01-09-2008, 16:05
ah the nerd rage.


in terms of speed im sure the trekkies have it... however i doubt even a klingon warship (even if ever klingon ship is a warship) could stand a full on boarding attack from space marines.

also in terms of planet killers. its not the size of the ship. you just need a platform with a torpedo launcher to fire the silo to kill a planet. so heck you dont need a battle ship to fire a planet killer

Jimbobjeff
01-09-2008, 16:55
Personally I think 40k has it, why? because of psykers, all your fancy tech doesnt mean anything if you captain decides to turn it off....and then becomes a warp rift.....

Kage2020
01-09-2008, 17:26
LOL... And then someone could come up with the counter-example of Q. Thus, the "versus" thread goes on and on and on, ad naeuseum. ;)

Kage

][nquist0r
01-09-2008, 17:32
I imagine that startrek ships do not need thick bulkheads because their hulls are polarized as well as their shielding. What we have to assume is that shields = shields for this arguement. So you have an arguement of a small fast ship with excellent targetting sensors (federation) vs a Large lumbering ship with very poor targetting but hugely destructive shots. Personally I think that the startrek ships would zip around a 40k ship vertually unchallenged *except* When the 40k ship unloads its hundreds of thunderhawk gunships the tables are turned somewhat. So 1 ship and all its means vs 1 ship with all its means = The Federation luring them away to a sun and causing a massive corronal mass ejection in hopes of destroying the Imperial Cruser. (Or Westle Crusher's Idea as mentioned.)

Iuris
01-09-2008, 18:53
It's simple, really.

The universe that's willing to sacrifice more realism wins. Start bidding.

Usually starting with relativity (since travelling at lightspeed is soo boring), continue to forgetting about acceleration physics, inventing the particle-of-the-week projector, inventing some sort of shield,....

That's the problem. Star wars ships can travel faster than 40K ships by an order of magnitude with no risk of warp loss, yet their fighter ships are no faster than WWII airplanes when you see them in action. Star trek just looks at whatever is coming at it, warbles some technobabble mumbo-jumbo until drama occurs, and then pulls a suitable counter-measure out of the chief engineer's magic hat.

It's like the 40K Titan vs. Evangelion EVAs debate. EVA wins because it handwaves more away.



In the end? 40K wins by cool, since it fires 100 meter long torpedos. Star wars wins because they can simply jump around the place and let the 40K fleet get ground to nothing by warp mishaps. And Star trek can always simply reallign the proton matrix converter to the precise frequency needed to kill while their phased shields on emergency power holds off the planet killer's blast.

LexxBomb
01-09-2008, 20:53
I think a better scifi universe to compare space with 40k would be the Babylon 5 universe... even combat is very similar.

At least in Babylon 5 the rules of physics are more or less adhered to.

carl
01-09-2008, 21:04
I think a couple of key points to remeber are that Star Trek photon Torpedos are megeton level Nukes, and Star War's proton torpedos are several tens of kilotons, (former based on known wargad data, later on observed effects).

Whilst 40K weaponry is probably a full order of magnitude nmore powerful, it's also mounted on ships that rely far more on raw armour and Void sheilding to survive. Void sheilds don't care too much about how powerful a blast is, so long as it's above the minimum threshold that single blast will blow the sheild down for recharge.

Given star Treks sheilds can take littrially hundreds of torpedo strikes it would still take many hits from 40K weaponry to down them, whilst a dozen or so torpedos would be more than enough to blow out the shields, and with most 40K ships having most fo their firpower is a few dozen hundred meter long guns, it would only take a few dozen more to kill it's heavy weapons, at which point the 40K ship is defencless whilst the ST ship takes it's time slowly cutting it open. Not to mention 40K weapons ranges are meashured in 10's of thousands of KM, not hundreds of thousanmds, or even millions in some cases that ST weapons use.

SW ships are easy to target due to being as big as 40K ships and with 200 Proton Torpedos crippling even an SSD in Bacta War, easy to one shot./ But they could just hang back and send the fighter in. Laser Cannons and Proton Torpedos are much more powerful than the lascannons and autocannons that dominate 40K fighters. Add in how many laser cannon shots it takes to kill many SW fighters and the G componsators and IoM fighters don't have a hope vs. SW one's and once under the cap ships void sheilds they too can pick off the ships weaponry, clearing the way for the SW cap ship to move in close and finish them off with massed turbolaser fire. It'll take a while but thats not anm issue when you have such a long time.

Babylon 5 is the big winner though, IoM ships are so big and slow to turn the B5 ships could just open jump gates on top of them and win without ever exposing themselves to any enemy fire.

Dinadan
01-09-2008, 21:09
In the end? 40K wins by cool, since it fires 100 meter long torpedos. Star wars wins because they can simply jump around the place and let the 40K fleet get ground to nothing by warp mishaps. And Star trek can always simply reallign the proton matrix converter to the precise frequency needed to kill while their phased shields on emergency power holds off the planet killer's blast.
You forgot that Doctor Who wins by reversing the Polarity of the Neutron flow :p




Just to add some food for thought, what about the Imperium vs the Borg? Surely the Imperium would loose when the Ad Mech defected en mass to be assimilated? Same thing with Imperium vs Cybermen :D

Sekhmet
01-09-2008, 21:11
Macross universe would win.

Valks with Reflex weaponry.

RCgothic
01-09-2008, 22:10
Carl, I think you're incorrect with regard to the durability of star trek ships.

Case in point: Jem Hadar attack ship 90m long rams a ST capital ship. Both ships are obliterated.

Lunar Class cruiser the size of a city rams a Space Marine battle barge, also the size of a city. Both ships suffer only minor damage.

Lord Zarkov
01-09-2008, 22:25
SW ships are easy to target due to being as big as 40K ships and with 200 Proton Torpedos crippling even an SSD in Bacta War, easy to one shot./ But they could just hang back and send the fighter in. Laser Cannons and Proton Torpedos are much more powerful than the lascannons and autocannons that dominate 40K fighters. Add in how many laser cannon shots it takes to kill many SW fighters and the G componsators and IoM fighters don't have a hope vs. SW one's and once under the cap ships void sheilds they too can pick off the ships weaponry, clearing the way for the SW cap ship to move in close and finish them off with massed turbolaser fire. It'll take a while but thats not anm issue when you have such a long time.


The probelm with SW ships though is their short ranges, both of the TIE fighters and the ship to ship weaponry (which seems to be the equivalent of multiple las-cannons - therefore equivalent to 40K's turrets). A IoM battle fleet would therefore simply sit out of range of the SW fleet and bombard them to pieces with its weapons batteries, lances and prehaps the odd torpedo, especially considering how fragile the SW ships seem to be (tiny fighter crashing into the Super Star desroyer cripples it in RotJ and the fact that mere laser cannons hurt at all. The TIE fighters, although by far having the speed advantage, are simply not going to touch the armour of even the gunmountings on a battleship (although the bombers could hurt) and may even have quite a hard time taking down the Furies (since it's the largest Imperial Intereptor and hence bigger than the Maruder which is a 3 structure-point monstrosity armed to the teeth) even though they'll likely take few hits in return due to their small size and high speed. If they do get hit though (and the battleship's turrets will probably hit tem reasonbly often since they can take down Eldar fighters which are bigger, faster, and have holofieds) they're dead due to their small mass, minimum life support, and lack of shielding. IoM being IoM they'll probably be content with their Interceptor losses and ingore the fighters to take out the bombers.

The main problem the SW fleet faces against IoM is that their geared towards taking out and blockading lost of smaller vessels, barly larger than IMO fighters, with the larger rebel ships being smaller than IoM escorts, with the bulk of their fleet (star destoyers) being not much larger (about the 100m, longer as the largest IoM escorts accoring to wikipedia; although the Super Star Desroyers are quite a scary prospect being 2.5 times the length of a IoM battleship). The type of warfare seems to be therefore very different with the films showing space combat as almost short ranged 'fire fights', with laser cannons apparently being a real threat to ships. 40K space engagements however are against a much larger average size of ship and the ranges are much longer with heavy bombardment from massive diatances (remember in BFG even the largest battleship fits within the stork of the flying base and that on this scale they're blasting enemies about a foot away. Therefore the SW fleet will likley be hard pressed to deal with the superior range of the Imperial ships and will take heavy losses before getting near enough to even hurt them

Clockwork-Knight
01-09-2008, 22:48
Tie Interceptors are equal, if not better than Furies and Marauder. Let's face it, Wh40k-Imperial Space Fighter-craft on the side of the Imperials is nothing to brag about. Tie-Fighters and IoM-Fighters neutralize each another. They are therefore of no concern. A SW-battle ship is superior to an IoM-battle ship simply due to the hyperjump drives. Being able to tactically change positions even faster than Eldar warships is something that every IoM-admiral fears absolutely. The same applies to ST-ships. By the time the naval ratings and other ship-slaves have finished putting the ammo in the macro-cannons and putting it in position with superprimitive chainwork, SW- and ST-ships will have changed position by long. As soon as any of them manage to enter the rear of the ships of the IoM, they've won. We know from Battlefleet Gothic that the ships of mankind are tremendously slow and can't turn very fast.
That's also one of the major reasons why the very big battleships in service to the Golden Throne need escort ships to protect their vulnerable sides.

carl
01-09-2008, 22:58
My point with SW ships is that they could just sit out of range, and a few laser cannon blast will melt right through the armour of an AT-AT, those things are titan sized. There several orders of magnitude more powerful than lascannons, their more like Titan grade Turbolasers in 40K terms. They're also much faster firing than Lascannon. An X-Wing can take 10 laser cannon hits before it's sheilds fail in most litreture, a B-Wing can take well over a hundred, and figures in excess of 400 have been seen in some cases. Fury's won't even come close to being able to but ut that kind of firepower, littrially a whole squodron of 20 odd furies wuld have to hit a single X-Wing and an X-Wing can turn far tighter than the Fury can because it's not affected by the G forces.

A single quad burst from an X-Wing would level most non Warlord/Reaver/Impiretor grade super heavies. A fury would just come apart. AN X-Wing squodron could comfortbly take on 5 or 6 squodrons of Furys without proton tiorpedos, add in torpedo usage and it shoots up.

All the SW fighters have to do is get in close and blow up the gun barrels, they may not be able to hurt the main hull of the shps with their torpedos, but they'll put nice holes through gun barrels. Once the IoM has no real weapons left THEN the SW fleet m,ove into range and starts shooting. If a SW cap shiop fleet ever got close enough for the IoM to shoot at it it would simply cease to exist, a single cannon round from an IoM ship would vaporise even an SSD. Only a DS could last more than 5 seconds in range.

As to Star Trek Ships, the tottal antimatter they carryu in fuel per ship has a destructive power equal to hundreds of thousands of Photon Torpedoes. And the impact energy of a full impulse ram is like a million times bigger, an attack ship ramming an IoM BB would vaporise it tottally, not break it up into chunkc or blow a huge hole out of it forcing a warp core breach, (as happened with oddessy). high fractions of lightspeed produce collishions with an energy output high enough to destroy a planets eco systems tottally if they happened on planet. A warp ram of a planet would be like hitting it with a deathstar.

Raxmei
01-09-2008, 23:17
Space Hulk gives us a yield of about 600 gigatons for Imperial torpedoes. The usual estimates for Trek torpedoes are around 60 megatons. That's ten thousand times less powerful. All of Starfleet working together to attack an Imperial warship with its defenses turned off would be hard pressed to scratch the paint.

Firaxin
01-09-2008, 23:26
a few laser cannon blast will melt right through the armour of an AT-AT, those things are titan sized.

The entire rest of your post goes on the assumption that just because an AT-AT is the size of a titan, it is as tough as a titan. Really, I can't see its AV being higher than 12 on any portion of it at all. And only one structure point. The fact that one could be taken out by a single grenade...

When will they learn it is not the size...

carl
01-09-2008, 23:41
If a torpedo was 600Gigatons then a single torpedo would render an entire planet uninhabbitable...

Firaxin: a Proton torpedo is roughyl equal in power to a 10Kt warhead based on observed effects, and it takes about 15 laser cannon blasts from an X-wing to do the same sheild damage, now if your telling me that you think a lascannion has a power output well in excess a half a kiolton of TNT then sure an AT-AT might be as weak as you suggesst. But given even fluff wise it's not a one hit kill vs. Leman Russes and that they CERTIALLY won't take fractinal kiloton blast detonatons i don't think your going to get very far...

Lothlanathorian
01-09-2008, 23:47
Now, I'll admit, I've only ever watched the Star Wars movies, and have wanted to die 50% of the time (the only good one happened a long time ago in a decade far, far away). As far as I can tell, X-Wings A) have no shields and B) Blow up if you blink at them hard enough. I've seen plenty of them shot down by TIE fighters. So, if that is possible, the I'm not even afraid of a Star Destroyer as TIE fighters are the most powerful Sci-Fi weapon ever developed.

God, I fell dirty for even posting in this thread. Dodging flames here and there is hard enough, but this being the second thread of this topic in three months must mean it is ridiculously worthy of being done again and ignoring the search function.

Chaplain of Chaos
01-09-2008, 23:48
I think the problem here is that when you start entering the realm of "well they use subspace to ignore problems like... physics and science thus they win"

Or.. "If you follow the Rule of Cool, a 40k battleship could blow up the universe"

The only way to compare them is compare them in controlled enviroments.

an Imperial Battleship vs. Star Trek equivalent fighting in realspace away from gravity wells and asteroids, traveling at sublight.

Comparisons only work in specifically controlled environments. Otherwise you could do all sort of crap. "so what if you travel in subspace and fight at faster than light speed, we used our psykers to predict that and set up a trap that melted your brains or vice versa."

When it comes to Star Wars though, one thing to take into account is the huge size of the Imperial Navy (SW) though any given Imperial Star Destroyer (1 mile long) is about the size of an Imperium frigate theirs a heck ton of them their turbolasers are potent, proton torpedos are hugely powerful and they have shields.

Also did I say their is a huge number of Star Destroyers, Mon Cal Cruisers older Dreadnaughts, Super Star Destroyers yadda yadda.

Raxmei
02-09-2008, 00:02
While the inhabitants certainly would notice a 600 gigaton impact, that's still a tiny fraction of what you'd need to actually render it uninhabitable. It's barely big enough to cause a climate change. The KT event was a thousand times bigger and left survivors.

200 gigatons would obliterate a small to medium size country and possibly throw enough dust into the atmosphere to cause global cooling. This amount of damage is consistent with numerous statements elsewhere that Imperial ships have the firepower to level continents.

Lord Zarkov
02-09-2008, 00:06
I'm doubtful SW laser cannons are that much more powerful than las cannons, certainly nothing on Turbolasers have you seen what those things do, an AT-AT is fairly small compared to IoM Titans, it's height according to wikipedia is 15-22m which is simliar to the Warhounds 16.25, since las cannons will happily rip into the side of a warhound it seems to me fairly equivalent in power, if slightly less than the SW ones; a turbolaser would obliterate the hull of the AT-AT and kill everyone nearby in a fairly large radius to boot.

Even if X-wings take 10 hits to bust their shields a pair of Furies with "banks of foward-facing las-cannons and missile bays" will probably bust that in one salvo, let alone the turrets on the actual ships, a single set of which can blat a squadron of super-hevies in one blow (also demonstrating the IoM ships resiliance, since the turrets are of no threat to even an escort ship). TIE fighters have no shields anyway so 'tis not a problem when facing them, one hit and boom.

Also given the TIE fighters barely scratched the [i]Millenium Falcon]'s gun barrels, I'd not put much stock in them doing serious damage to IoM warships weaponry, certainly not to enough of them to make a difference. That's even if they get in range. The range of TIE fighters depicted in the movies is woefully short compared to the range of an IoM battleship's guns. It can quite happily blast the SW Empire fleet to pices before the TIEs even get there, by which point it can drop back into the warp, job done.

Also, as shown in the movies, Hyperdrive can't be used in combat, except to disengage. I.e. it fuffils the same purpose for SW ships as the warp does for the IoM (if a bit more safely). It also seems to have just as harsh restrictions in where and when you can jump, hence in combat the SW ships will be restricted to their sub-light speeds, which in the case of the Empire appear to be just as slow and ponderous as IoM ships, hence the IoM will have little dificulty out ranging them and they try and approach to bring their fighters to bear

A Star Destroyer in BFG would simply be an escort with a large bay of short ranged attack craft, not really a huge threat to IoM capital ships.

RCgothic
02-09-2008, 00:34
VS STAR WARS:
""The entire starfleet couldn't destroy the whole planet, it'd take a thousand ships with more firepower than I've—" - Han Solo.

It would only take one 40k ship. The Furious Abyss, or Abaddon's Planet Killer. Or a ship armed with Two-Stage Torpedoes: (quoting)
Two-stage torpedoes are the most common of a special class of rare Exterminatus weapons, designed for use against atmosphereless or biologically-void worlds (Necron Tomb Worlds being the main example). These have two-stage warheads: The first stage is a melta charge that bores straight through a planet all the way down to its core. The second stage is a modified cyclonic charge that destabilizes it, in most cases physically destroying the planet.

So destroying a planet isn't unique to Star wars. Now onto the subject of weapons. Fighter weapons seem barely stronger than multilasers. You can tell by the effect their impacts have. (inability to penetrate reasonable armour, targets taking multiple hits unsheilded before succumbing). Capital ship weapons are pitifully short ranged and incapable of dealing with thunderhawk sized targets, a fatal flaw vs marauder squadrons. Even in their effect on other capital ships, the damage is localised and minimal. Ion cannons are unlikely to have much effect vs IoM due to hand loaded weaponry. Capital ship vs capital ship, point blank range, episode 3, individual weapons don't do much.

SW is just outclassed in every way.

VS STAR TREK:
I've been thinking about Starfleet's one advantage: Fast sublight speeds. But then I remembered that broadside batteries don't so much target the ship as saturate an area of space. It's why they're so good against eldar. A star trek ship would be annihilated if caught anywhere near a broadside, and they aren't fast enough to evade an entire region of space exploding around them.

VS GALACTICA:
Galactica would be annihilated. The weapons are tiny in comparison to IoM and the armour paper-thin. No sheilds, No contest.

Aurellis
02-09-2008, 00:49
When boarding actions are taken into account I personally can't see any victory but the 40k side.

Masses of Genestealers boarding a Star Trek ship?
Assault Terminators storming through the decks of a Star Destroyer?

][nquist0r
02-09-2008, 00:56
You forget that a ST ship would just send a shuttle out to get the harmonic field frequency of the void shields then fly through and beam a torpedo into the engine core of the Imperial ship. Or If that failed, install a illegal stealth field generator that Will Riker pulls out of his ass and... I just cant go on... lol

RCgothic
02-09-2008, 00:59
That's assuming void shields HAVE a harmonic frequency. Again, a nemesis-style cloaking device suck as the Scimitar had would be useless vs an IoM ship. The area-saturation would be so intense that it would be annihilated in short order, cloaking device or not.

Clockwork-Knight
02-09-2008, 01:20
The entire fleet of the Imperium of Man couldn't destroy a planet either with their weapons. Exterminatus-equipment is rare, and all what Exterminatus can do is to eradicate all life on the surface, a feat that all scifi-universe can do. At worst, you create long-lasting (more than a hundred thousand years) earthquakes that break up the upper crust and letting lava flow over the landmasses. No, only the Planetkiller of Abaddon has planet-bursting capabilities, and it's the equivalent to the Death Star.
The only times when a planet did break up during an Exterminatus was either because there was no core anymore (Nostramo), totally crazy warp-effects from the Warp-gods themselves (Caliban, set in the vicinity of the Eye of Terror), or by hitting a large secret eldar doomsday-device by accident (Palyion 2).

There is a reason why the Imperials are so dead-afraid from Abaddon's Planetkiller. It surpasses every way of obliterating planets that they ever knew from. Aside from the fact that the most powerful weapons, Vortex armament, has been forgotten how to recreate it, the amount of Exterminatus equipment goes down and down. Virus-bombing remains one of the most common way of destroying planetary fauna and flora.

And, don't forget that planets in SW have planetary shields (told in novels, shown in episode 3) that encompass the entire sphere, strong enough to withstand planetary bombardment, something which in Wh40k only Terra might have, if at all. The Death Star was created to break through any energy shield that a planet could put up too, and destroy the entire world in one shot. The Chaos-Planetkiller is probably capable of doing the same, but fortunately for Abaddon, the absolute total majority doesn't have anything equal to a planetary shield. Normal exterminatus-style attacks against a planet would be enough to destroy the hated worlds of the Imperium. But overkill was always something that Abaddon was fond of.

olmsted
02-09-2008, 02:03
My point with SW ships is that they could just sit out of range, and a few laser cannon blast will melt right through the armour of an AT-AT, those things are titan sized. There several orders of magnitude more powerful than lascannons, their more like Titan grade Turbolasers in 40K terms. They're also much faster firing than Lascannon. An X-Wing can take 10 laser cannon hits before it's sheilds fail in most litreture, a B-Wing can take well over a hundred, and figures in excess of 400 have been seen in some cases. Fury's won't even come close to being able to but ut that kind of firepower, littrially a whole squodron of 20 odd furies wuld have to hit a single X-Wing and an X-Wing can turn far tighter than the Fury can because it's not affected by the G forces.

A single quad burst from an X-Wing would level most non Warlord/Reaver/Impiretor grade super heavies. A fury would just come apart. AN X-Wing squodron could comfortbly take on 5 or 6 squodrons of Furys without proton tiorpedos, add in torpedo usage and it shoots up.

All the SW fighters have to do is get in close and blow up the gun barrels, they may not be able to hurt the main hull of the shps with their torpedos, but they'll put nice holes through gun barrels. Once the IoM has no real weapons left THEN the SW fleet m,ove into range and starts shooting. If a SW cap shiop fleet ever got close enough for the IoM to shoot at it it would simply cease to exist, a single cannon round from an IoM ship would vaporise even an SSD. Only a DS could last more than 5 seconds in range.

As to Star Trek Ships, the tottal antimatter they carryu in fuel per ship has a destructive power equal to hundreds of thousands of Photon Torpedoes. And the impact energy of a full impulse ram is like a million times bigger, an attack ship ramming an IoM BB would vaporise it tottally, not break it up into chunkc or blow a huge hole out of it forcing a warp core breach, (as happened with oddessy). high fractions of lightspeed produce collishions with an energy output high enough to destroy a planets eco systems tottally if they happened on planet. A warp ram of a planet would be like hitting it with a deathstar.

some one is highly over estimating star wars. if i recall correctly there was no way in hell xwings could even pierce the armor of an atat. your stroking your sw epenor way to much with this post.

Firaxin
02-09-2008, 02:23
No, snow speeders couldn't penetrate an AT-AT. X-Wings only take one or two quad-linked bursts to take the whole thing out though.

Doesn't mean much if a rooky IG junior officer with a power sword can cut through the thing's legs...

Continuing with the assumption that an AT-AT is AV12, that would put a snowspeeder's laser cannons at Str 6. Twin-linked multi-laser mebbe?

Even conceding AV13 for the AT-AT, the snowspeeder has a twin-linked autocannon. Meaning the x-wing has 4 lascannons/2 twin-linked lascannons.
Sounds about right.

AT-AT weapons are probably something like a twin-linked multi-laser and a twin-linked lascannon.

I'm refusing to give the AT-AT AV14 because I know it is not the heaviest armored ground vehicle in SW.

LexxBomb
02-09-2008, 02:27
Macross universe would win.

Valks with Reflex weaponry.

and yet the greatest weapons in the Macross universe are actually songs.

Minmeii -macross
Fire Bomber - Macross 7 (intoduced Song energy)
Ranka Lee and Sheril - Macross Frontier songs effect on fold barriers.

go the culture shock
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnH1IVJ8DOQ

olmsted
02-09-2008, 02:38
No, snow speeders couldn't penetrate an AT-AT. X-Wings only take one or two quad-linked bursts to take the whole thing out though.

Doesn't mean much if a rooky IG junior officer with a power sword can cut through the thing's legs...

Continuing with the assumption that an AT-AT is AV12, that would put a snowspeeder's laser cannons at Str 6. Twin-linked multi-laser mebbe?

Even conceding AV13 for the AT-AT, the snowspeeder has a twin-linked autocannon. Meaning the x-wing has 4 lascannons/2 twin-linked lascannons.
Sounds about right.

AT-AT weapons are probably something like a twin-linked multi-laser and a twin-linked lascannon.

I'm refusing to give the AT-AT AV14 because I know it is not the heaviest armored ground vehicle in SW.


if this is true then why didnt they use them when the empire invaded hoth?

Firaxin
02-09-2008, 02:42
if this is true then why didnt they use them when the empire invaded hoth?

Remember? They had enough trouble outfitting the snow speeders to operate in the extreme cold. That was the reason they couldn't pick up Luke when that thing attacked him, and Han had to go out alone. The snow speeders weren't finished being refitted yet.

LexxBomb
02-09-2008, 02:54
I thougt that with all the arguing it would be fun to view some clips

Warhammer 40k space combat - via Firewarrior
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A33CBytuRwg&feature=related

Babylon5 Space combat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYx2MLhYgbI&feature=related

Battle Star Galactica combt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSmhWkJ4MMA

Star wars space combat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGMvadAFqLQ

Star Trek Space combat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzWVKO-REo0

have fun and enjoy

and for the doctor who fans
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvY1_IwwNtI&feature=related

olmsted
02-09-2008, 03:01
Remember? They had enough trouble outfitting the snow speeders to operate in the extreme cold. That was the reason they couldn't pick up Luke when that thing attacked him, and Han had to go out alone. The snow speeders weren't finished being refitted yet.

and yet luke was able to escape into space on one?

i dont know your sw universe seems even more shifty then a cs goto book.


In the end it all comes down to where u get a 40k ship close enough to launch a space marine boarding action. when that happens well mr. warf cant save picard.

LexxBomb
02-09-2008, 03:06
and yet luke was able to escape into space on one?

i dont know your sw universe seems even more shifty then a cs goto book.


In the end it all comes down to where u get a 40k ship close enough to launch a space marine boarding action. when that happens well mr. warf cant save picard.

lol yes just imagine the fight between Tigirus and Darth Vader.
Vader uses his force crush and Tigirus wonders why hyus psychic hood doen't do anything

Koryphaus
02-09-2008, 03:36
Because he's more than 24" away? I've got this image in my head of a librarian tugging at the neckline of his armour.

Vader would make a very good Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor. "I find your lack of faith disturbing.."

Edit: Good idea LexxBomb. Videos are fun :)

Here's a ST video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zoucuN1TUc&feature=related). Goes for 10 min though so bear with it, its pretty good.

Firaxin
02-09-2008, 03:45
and yet luke was able to escape into space on one?

i dont know your sw universe seems even more shifty then a cs goto book.


Hey, I didn't write the script. I suppose they'd finished augmenting them by that point... or maybe it was because it was daytime, and thus not as cold.

Koryphaus
02-09-2008, 04:21
Firaxin's right - they couldn't go and find Luke because at night time because the weather was too cold for the airspeeder engines. They hadn't finished upgrading them to be "snow" speeders or something. Remember that is why Han went out on the Tauntaun.

It was either warm enough during the day, or they'd finished uprading the speeder engines, because we all saw them fighting the Imperials.

Anyway, Luke escaped into space in his X-Wing, not an airspeeder.

Scorpius_78
02-09-2008, 04:34
Because he's more than 24" away? I've got this image in my head of a librarian tugging at the neckline of his armour.

Vader would make a very good Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor. "I find your lack of faith disturbing.."

Edit: Good idea LexxBomb. Videos are fun :)

Here's a ST video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zoucuN1TUc&feature=related). Goes for 10 min though so bear with it, its pretty good.


lol I think Vader would make a great Inquisitor

As far as a fight in space I gota go with star wars on this one. If not for technology then for numbers. I just cant see the Imperium haveing the number to to match what the Empire has. Also the Empire's ability to replace ships and fighters. We all know how slow the Imperium is at doing things that being said i dont think they would be able to keep up with another large well oragized military force. On ground wars the Imperium got it.

Chaplain of Chaos
02-09-2008, 04:54
That's one thing that needs to be factored in, new battleships aren't constructed very fast in 40k.

Alright, now I will list all the Major shipyards in SW. Major meaning constructs warships. Also, it has been projected that in a few years a single shipyard (such as correlia's) could construct a decent sized fleet.

* Bestine IV
* Bilbringi
* Bothawui
* Byss
* Corellia
* Duro
* Eriadu
* Foerost
* Fondor
* Gyndine
* Hast
* Hapes
* Jaemus
* Kiris Asteroid Cluster
* Kuat
* Lianna
* Loronar
* Mon Calamari
* N'zoth
* Obulette
* Ord Trasi
* Rendili
* Rothana
* Selonia
* Sluis Van
* Tallaan
* Vento system
* Yaga Minor


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Also, it has been proven and then proved conistent that IoM ships have 600 gigaton torpedos. I believe that post was a page or two ago.

I think that overall the IoM has a huge advantage in terms of both quality, range, technology (even if they don't understand it) and manpower. It just lacks in terms of numbers and attrition. Eventually the Empire and Federation would outproduce the IoM unless drastic measures where taken.

This feels right to me, considering i'm a huge fanboy of both 40k, SW (no ST) I don't think i'm overly biased anyway as i'd be happy with any of them winning (except ST).

thechosenone
02-09-2008, 05:10
I know its been said in this thread and the 500 hundred others like it... This is an impossible thing to talk about.

Now i've watched all my star trek, enterprise excluded for about half its run, i've watched all my star wars and i've played my 40K for the better part of seven years. Sprinkle in babylon 6 and star gate and i'm a huge nerd but they just don't compare well.

Star trek says it can own star wars because lasers are not a threat compared to phased lasers. Phased laser is techno babble that starwars doesn't follow and based on huge nerd science on stardestroyer .com or space battles .com i can't remember which, a single shot from a turbo laser is more rockin then the corona of a star. Stargate says replicating machines are the end all be all of coolness but trek has beaten their version of von neuman machines in the borg and sentient machines are not even an issue in star wars. Warhammer has aloof and uncaring warp entities and living gods that devour stars but star gate has dealt with fanatics and deity worshippers just fine and ...

See my point. Say that the cool thing in my hobby is more awesome then the cool thing in another hobby is just lame and starts arguments over unprovable things. So until someone goes about figuring out the actual science behind 40K stuff like they have for some trek stuff and lots of starwars stuff its just hard to have any meaningful discussion about this that isn't fanboyism.

Scorpius_78
02-09-2008, 05:22
I know its been said in this thread and the 500 hundred others like it... This is an impossible thing to talk about.

Now i've watched all my star trek, enterprise excluded for about half its run, i've watched all my star wars and i've played my 40K for the better part of seven years. Sprinkle in babylon 6 and star gate and i'm a huge nerd but they just don't compare well.

Star trek says it can own star wars because lasers are not a threat compared to phased lasers. Phased laser is techno babble that starwars doesn't follow and based on huge nerd science on stardestroyer .com or space battles .com i can't remember which, a single shot from a turbo laser is more rockin then the corona of a star. Stargate says replicating machines are the end all be all of coolness but trek has beaten their version of von neuman machines in the borg and sentient machines are not even an issue in star wars. Warhammer has aloof and uncaring warp entities and living gods that devour stars but star gate has dealt with fanatics and deity worshippers just fine and ...

See my point. Say that the cool thing in my hobby is more awesome then the cool thing in another hobby is just lame and starts arguments over unprovable things. So until someone goes about figuring out the actual science behind 40K stuff like they have for some trek stuff and lots of starwars stuff its just hard to have any meaningful discussion about this that isn't fanboyism.


You cant look at it that way man. We all know that it doesn't make sense thats the fun of it. Just go with the rule of cool. Hell none of it is real anyway so why not have some fun with it. Just go with it.

Sekhmet
02-09-2008, 07:26
I thougt that with all the arguing it would be fun to view some clips

Warhammer 40k space combat - via Firewarrior
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A33CBytuRwg&feature=related

Babylon5 Space combat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYx2MLhYgbI&feature=related

Battle Star Galactica combt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSmhWkJ4MMA

Star wars space combat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGMvadAFqLQ

Star Trek Space combat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzWVKO-REo0

have fun and enjoy

and for the doctor who fans
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvY1_IwwNtI&feature=related

Can't tell much about the 40k one. Star Wars space battles are very similar to WW2 dogfights over the ocean with navies in the water. B5 is very realistic in terms of physics and such. BSG seems similar to Wing Commander - very well adapted to 3 dimensional combat and very realistic as well, even more so than B5 (cause they're lower tech, so they don't have hand wavium gravimetric drives and such). I love the amounts of flak in BSG in WC.

Sceleris82
02-09-2008, 07:35
Honestly i like the starwars movies and the universe, but hehe damn even trying to compare it to 40 k is rather silly. Even the at-at walkers are rather weak, remember the scene in empire strikes back, where a at-at walker hits Lukes tiny little ship, it only crashes....
If a titan shot a shop like like then it would be turned into dust.

Koryphaus
02-09-2008, 08:36
Nope, remember only glancing hits against fast skimmers moving more than 12"..

Arkhar
02-09-2008, 09:05
Nope, remember only glancing hits against fast skimmers moving more than 12"..

Now is 4+ cover save :D

Koryphaus
02-09-2008, 09:17
Falce Palm! You are correct of course.

Luke fails his cover save, but lucky him, the AT-AT player rolled a 4. So the Speeder becomes immobilised. But because he moved fast, the speeder is destroyed.
Luke rolls a 3 and 4 when testing for casualties due to the crash, then fails 1 armour save. But because he's Luke and you never remove models with power weapons/special abilities if you can avoid it, Dak Ralter is removed as a casualty.

RCgothic
02-09-2008, 09:48
Hehe. Much laughter!

But yes, an AT-AT looks like it has a twin-linked lascannon and a twin-linked multilaser. Just look at the effects. AT-AT shoots turret, damage is localised to the turret. None of the shots cause a snowspeeder to explode in mid air, they all crash. we see multiple shots impacting the snow with very little effect. It does blow up a sensitive building, but then lascannons can do that too.
The snowspeeders appear to be armed with multilasers as well. (both x-wing and snowspeeder are armed with laser cannons-wookiepedia). The AT-AT must therefore be at least AV 13, though I have no problems giving it AV14. I'd probably give it Superheavy, structure points 2 and a transport capacity of 30. would probably cost around 300-350 points. Anyway, nothing that couldn't be dealt with by the Forces of Man. A couple of lascannon teams would take it out.

Jedi vs Psyker:
Jedi abilities are given by the Force, Psyker abilities by the warp. There seems no reason to beleive that either would be proof against the others attack. It would depend much upon the potential of the individual. If a lightsabre is a power weapon,then a librarian is more heavily armed with a bolt pistol as well. I don't imagine a mass-reactive shell would take kindly to an attempted deflection. A librarian is also a superman in power armour, though the force may give a jedi enhanced initiative, toughness and strength as well. I think the librarian still has the edge.

Starship combat: Again, if a star destroyer can't deal with the millenium falcon, then the incoming wave of marauder bombers is going to be a problem for it. The Thunderhawks carrying boarding parties of space marines are going to be an even greater problem. And that's before the IoM Cruisers start bombarding with torpedoes a hundred metres long from outside the Star destroyers effective range. I think a sword/firestorm frigate would have the edge vs a star destroyer. A Cruiser could take on fleets. The IoM has superiority in weapons, armour, attack craft and range. Speed is roughly the same.

carl
02-09-2008, 10:26
GUYs the firepower of Proton torpeods is well documented, their effects on sheilded fighter sized targets are well documented, the effects of Laser Cannons on sheilded targets are well documented.

To do what it does each Laser Cannon has to be kicking out fractionol KT level power. If your telling me you think anything less than a super heavy will even vaguly survive taking a direct hit from a focused fractinol KT weapon i'm going to laugh at you.

If you want furthar proof of a laser cannons power, at 1/100th power they can flash vaporise a vong, (bassiclly human), wearing vondum crab armour, (which is tottally lightsabre proof for a couple of strikes and regenerates any damage wthin a couple of seconds). A Lascannon sure as hell isn't going to flash vaporise anything at 1/100th power.

The fact is SW weaponry and armour is a couple of quantuam leaps more powerful for it's size than 40K weapons and armour. They just don't build things on the scale the IoM does.

Arkhar
02-09-2008, 10:58
Falce Palm! You are correct of course.

Luke fails his cover save, but lucky him, the AT-AT player rolled a 4. So the Speeder becomes immobilised. But because he moved fast, the speeder is destroyed.
Luke rolls a 3 and 4 when testing for casualties due to the crash, then fails 1 armour save. But because he's Luke and you never remove models with power weapons/special abilities if you can avoid it, Dak Ralter is removed as a casualty.

Very good example :lol:

RCgothic
02-09-2008, 11:28
carl, quite frankly, if laser cannons were kt level power, then every shot that missed in the battle of Hoth and the ground battle of Endor would have annihilated every ground troop on the battlefield, and burnt the jungle/vapourised the snow for hundreds of miles around. It would be physically impossible to have a ground battle with that kind of energy being thrown around.

Now I accept that it's possible (though again not shown on screen) that Capital ship weapons might be fractionally that powerful, but the weapons we've seen used in every single ground battle in all 7 star wars films have barely surpassed the capabilities of modern day armaments.

The power levels you're talking about are NOT documented in the films. Star Trek has also thrown out some stupidly high numbers as well that don't agree with what is shown onscreen. When there is an inconsistency, onscreen trumps extended background unless specifically stated otherwise. (such as Berman completely disowning the voyager episode 'Threshold'.)

Koryphaus
02-09-2008, 11:58
Did he really? I haven't seen that one yet, might be interesting viewing..

RCgothic
02-09-2008, 12:10
It's the one where paris goes warp 10 in a shuttlecraft, kidnaps janeway, and they evolve into lizards and have kids.

ok, I meant Brannon Braga, not Berman. here's the interview:

"I wrote the episode, or at least the teleplay. It's a terrible episode. People are very unforgiving about that episode. I've written well over a hundred episodes of Star Trek, yet it seems to be the only episode anyone brings up, you know? Out of a hundred and some episodes, you're gonna have some stinkers! Unfortunately, that was a royal, steaming stinker. And... it had some good intentions behind it. It had a good premise, breaking the warp 10 barrier. I don't know where this whole "de-evolving into a lizard" thing came from. I may have blocked it out. I think I was trying to make a statement about evolution not necessarily being evolving toward higher organisms, that evolution may also be a de-evolution. You know, we kind of take it for granted that evolution means bigger brains, more technology, you know, more refined civilization. When in fact, for all we know, we're evolving back toward a more primordial state. Ultimately, who can predict? Unfortunately, none of this came across in the episode. And all we were left with were some lizard... things crawling around in the mud. So. It was not my shining moment."

In a later episode paris denied ever having gone to transwarp, thus striking Threshold from the canon.

GodofWarTx
02-09-2008, 12:50
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Also, it has been proven and then proved conistent that IoM ships have 600 gigaton torpedos. I believe that post was a page or two ago.

I think that overall the IoM has a huge advantage in terms of both quality, range, technology (even if they don't understand it) and manpower. It just lacks in terms of numbers and attrition. Eventually the Empire and Federation would outproduce the IoM unless drastic measures where taken.




I'll jump in, seems like a good mental exercise =)

Outproduce it? I have my doubts based on some of the facts presented in all the universes. Lets start with star trek.

In star trek, the federation accounts for, accourding to wikipedia, 150 member planets and their colonies. Okay. Let me just let that sink in for a minute.

We have the Voyager get lost in part of the galaxy thats been unexplored (at all) by the federation. Both the above statements leave me to believe that there is a relatively small number of worlds on star trek, and a small fleet. I would say the UFP Starfleet is about the same size as Battlefleet Sol, and that seems to be stretching it.

Now lets look at Star Wars and its numbers.
It's galactic senate was larger, showcasing that many many more planets were involved in the galatic republic than Star Trek's UFP. However vexxing, large armies were considered the few million clone troopers created on Kamino. Well, if a few million clone troopers form the core of the Grand Army of the Republic, then its in trouble facing the next group, the Galactic Imperium of Man.

The Imperium of man is described as numbering a million worlds. a huge part of the milky way has colonies of men or at least catalogues of it on record, impressive considering that the milky way is 200-400 *billion* stars strong. It's so large an institution that often whole planets and star system's are forgotten in the mountains of administration work. This is an institution so massive that it cant even comprehend its own size. However, it does have the benifit of its defense and organizational system : The feudal network.
Each planet is obliged to defend its peers in the system, and the call for help goes up the chain all the way to the segmentum fleets.

Out of a million + worlds, i can bet the shipyards and forgeworlds of warships is far greater than that of the list above described. Fighting a war of "attrition" against the imperium is foolhardy even when ork's are concerned. Only the unfathomable tyranid race is able to size up to the imperium of man's numbers in raw "manpower".

For every federation ship that gets smoked in a fight, even at the noble destruction of several frigates or even larger Lunar-class cruisers, it costs them dearly. For every Super Star Destroyer (which have only ever been encountered alone) that destroys 4-5 IoM Battleships , its loss brings down the number of SSD's into the single digits.

I would say both Galactic Empire AND Federation crew would be smug at seeing the ponderous ,gothic, floating cathedrals flying through space. They would begin to laugh and chuckle at seeing the sweatshops and chain-gang crew used by the imperium's gun batteries. The smiles and chuckles would probably fade just about the time the assault boats hit, smoke filled the corridors, and out pops a bunch of barely clothed, oil and soot covered ratings and armsman roaring out of a hull breach, all led by a man with a glimmering oversized fist, his scarred face covered by a peaked hat, or a robed and bearded man screaming out battle curses in high gothic while swinging an evisorator at the poor Redshirt/imperial navy crewman who stood in the way.

Or worse. The hull buckles out and instead of men coming out of the assault boat but armored behemoths, weilding weapons that cause terror and carnage that would be sickening to the "clean" sensabilities to the Galactic Empire and Federation warriors. In the pyschological war, you have a problem here, as well later on when the depressing realization that the war will never end as the imperium's monolith war machine marches on, and on, and on.


I think the imperium of man has to the most degree and the Galactic empire to a lesser one the advantage of time. While most of the warships and weapons of the imperium are clunky and antiquated, they have worked enough to survive and even dominate in a galaxy far harsher than those presented in star war's or in the federation. For 10,000 years the imperium has reigned as the big daddy, and you can bet some lessons were learned in those years that tell them how to fight a war.

Fighting a war against the imperium is something not many "conventional" science fiction human-oriented collections/governments/institutions could ever stand when looking at the numbers, i would imagine. Now, you throw in wild card's that are so bizarre and powerful then sure, kiss the golden throne goodbye when you have hand-wavium powers.


Rather than focus on the more "tactical" differences between all of them, and hence the hard points dealing with use of physics and all that, i looked at the strategic level.

Koryphaus
02-09-2008, 12:54
Ah yes, now I know it. I seem to remember that I actually quite enjoyed it, because I was pretty young at the time, and probably didn't really uinderstand it lol. Yeah, it's probably not Voyager's finest hour.

I really enjoyed the other episodes that dealt with evolution, specifically of the Voth (http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Voth) race. Now there's some wicked technology! 65 million year old civilisation? Hell yeah. Interestingly, they have a creed called "The Doctrine", which is the basis of their society, and anybody disagreeing with it in any way, shape or form can be arrested and imprisoned.. Sounds like our beloved Imperium. :D

RCgothic
02-09-2008, 13:22
I'm in agreement with you GodofWar. The federation has maybe 1000 ships at a push, and probably less than 50 Galaxy/Sovereign class ships. When you consider that even those capital ships wouldn't be a match for a Sword class Frigate, you can see how the federation would be in trouble. In many episodes you can see the damage a pure projectile strike has on starfleet universe ships. If a Jem Hadar attack ship can obliterate a federation ship by ramming, they won't have much hope against 100m torpedos, and the main guns of a IoM ship are easily capable of putting out the same damage as the torpedoes.

The vulnerability of star wars ships to ramming is demonstrated by the A-wing in battle of Endor and the asteroids in tESB. Ok, the sheilds were down in the case of the A-wing, but clearly star destroyers are going to be fatally vulnerable to IoM torpedos at the very least.

Koryphaus
02-09-2008, 13:30
Outproduce it? I have my doubts based on some of the facts presented in all the universes.

I must agree with you on this one. On the one hand we have a galaxy-wide organisation, on the other a series of empires and organisations just a few thousand light-years across. Production and resources, IoM hands down.


The smiles and chuckles would probably fade just about the time the assault boats hit

That's assuming they make it to the ship. Given torpedoes can be detected and destroyed before impact, an assault boat shouldn't be too much trouble.


smoke filled the corridors, and out pops a bunch of barely clothed, oil and soot covered ratings and armsman roaring out of a hull breach, all led by a man with a glimmering oversized fist, his scarred face covered by a peaked hat, or a robed and bearded man screaming out battle curses in high gothic while swinging an evisorator at the poor Redshirt/imperial navy crewman who stood in the way.

Well, those Klingons just keep showing up don't they? :D Worse than the Orks! :p


Or worse. The hull buckles out and instead of men coming out of the assault boat but armored behemoths, weilding weapons that cause terror and carnage that would be sickening to the "clean" sensabilities to the Galactic Empire and Federation warriors.

But the Klingons would love them. So would the Kazon, and the Breen, and the Romulans would certainly appreciate the psychological impact. The Jem'Hadar wouldn't care less. And the Space Marines could quite easily find themselves vapourised by hand held weapons about the size of a pistol. Or beamed into space. They really aren't that impressive. (Sorry armies! I swear I don't mean it! I'm really a good Space Marine player at heart! Chaos and Loyalist both!);)


I think the imperium of man has to the most degree and the Galactic empire to a lesser one the advantage of time. While most of the warships and weapons of the imperium are clunky and antiquated, they have worked enough to survive and even dominate in a galaxy far harsher than those presented in star war's or in the federation. For 10,000 years the imperium has reigned as the big daddy, and you can bet some lessons were learned in those years that tell them how to fight a war.

Well, they Galactic Empire developed the Imperial Star Destroyer in less than 20 years following the events of SW3. The went from the Acclamator, through the Victory, then to the Imperial in that time. So their technology is cutting edge and fairly new. However, don't forget that the Old Republic stood for at least 1000 generations. If you assume 1 generation = 25 years, that's 25000 years of power. Nothing to be sniffed at. Also, I could be wrong, but I don't think we've ever been told how far into the future Star Wars is set. Star Trek TNG is set less than 400 years from now. 40k humanity has gone through the Dark Age of Technology, and then the Age of Strife to get to where it is now.


Fighting a war against the imperium is something not many "conventional" science fiction human-oriented collections/governments/institutions could ever stand when looking at the numbers, i would imagine. Now, you throw in wild card's that are so bizarre and powerful then sure, kiss the golden throne goodbye when you have hand-wavium powers.

I don't know, the Tau seem to be going ok. They've got some fair hand-wavium as well with their ever advancing technology as well. Can't wait for the little upstarts to feel the booted might of the Imperium crush their throats.. :evilgrin:

Koryphaus
02-09-2008, 13:36
I'm in agreement with you GodofWar. The federation has maybe 1000 ships at a push, and probably less than 50 Galaxy/Sovereign class ships. When you consider that even those capital ships wouldn't be a match for a Sword class Frigate, you can see how the federation would be in trouble. In many episodes you can see the damage a pure projectile strike has on starfleet universe ships. If a Jem Hadar attack ship can obliterate a federation ship by ramming, they won't have much hope against 100m torpedos, and the main guns of a IoM ship are easily capable of putting out the same damage as the torpedoes.

They aren't warships though. The whole point of Starfleet is that it is for primarily exploratory purposes. How can they be expected to trade blows with a vessel like the capital ships of the IoM? They'd never have a snowflake's chance in hell.

Also, consider that the scale. 100m torpedoes are minescule, compared to an Imperial Capital ship. A Jem-Hadar attack ship is going to be at least half as big as a capital ship of another race, when 2 similar sized vessels collide at full ahead in any universe, serious damage is meeted out.

Chaplain of Chaos
02-09-2008, 14:05
I still like to think that 40k would win, just in terms of shere martial power they are so much... "bigger" than others.

God forbid that Star Trek and it's huge amounts of quasi science could beat out the IoM and all their Science Fantasy warp magic. We could just show up at the Federation Homeworld (alternate realtiy earth) and Virus bomb it. That would cripple their will to fight no mistake.

RCgothic
02-09-2008, 14:31
I Also, I could be wrong, but I don't think we've ever been told how far into the future Star Wars is set.

A LONG TIME AGO...

:P

Koryphaus: , a Lunar Class rams a Battle Barge head on. Battle barge takes 8/6 hits, or 11% damage and 8/36 criticals. The Lunar takes 2 hits, or 25% damage and 1/3 criticals.That isn't crippling damage by any means, and that's two ships the size of cities smashing into each other.

Koryphaus
02-09-2008, 14:39
Lol, true.

Really? I've never actually played BFG, so I have no idea how much damage gets handed out besides fluff and stuff like that. I just sort of assumed that there'd be heaps of damage, to fit the 40k theme..

RCgothic
02-09-2008, 14:43
Oh generally there is heaps of damage. But by comparing the damage that happens during a ram (minimal in comparison to that dealt out by weapons) it gives a good idea of hull strength/armour.

Sekhmet
02-09-2008, 15:22
GUYs the firepower of Proton torpeods is well documented, their effects on sheilded fighter sized targets are well documented, the effects of Laser Cannons on sheilded targets are well documented.

To do what it does each Laser Cannon has to be kicking out fractionol KT level power. If your telling me you think anything less than a super heavy will even vaguly survive taking a direct hit from a focused fractinol KT weapon i'm going to laugh at you.

If you want furthar proof of a laser cannons power, at 1/100th power they can flash vaporise a vong, (bassiclly human), wearing vondum crab armour, (which is tottally lightsabre proof for a couple of strikes and regenerates any damage wthin a couple of seconds). A Lascannon sure as hell isn't going to flash vaporise anything at 1/100th power.

The fact is SW weaponry and armour is a couple of quantuam leaps more powerful for it's size than 40K weapons and armour. They just don't build things on the scale the IoM does.

As much as I like the work sites like stardestroyer.net have done in combining science/physics with star wars films, the idea that star destroyers output multiple megatons per shot is ridiculous. I don't care that a laser vaporized an asteroid the size of the millennium falcon - the point is that Lucas / his SFX director didn't intend for that to be a scientific measure of turbolaser power, and thus IS NOT CANON, regardless if it's in a movie.

Books don't count either. Want proof of why that'd be silly? Once a ship's shields go down, a single turbo laser shot would destroy anything except the Death Star, which may require a bombardment of a couple ships... but in Ep6, once the shield went down, they should've just lobbed turbo lasers at it from far away and destroyed it that way.

Hand-held blasters in SW also aren't that great - they cause burn marks, and that's about it.

RCgothic
02-09-2008, 15:48
if by 'burn' you mean 'cook a volume of flesh the size of your fist' then yeah. They're probably roughly equivalent to lasguns.

MADJAP77
02-09-2008, 16:24
The Last Star Fighter!!!!!!!

Templar Ben
02-09-2008, 19:45
Hmm... if it is "inumerable" ammount of instances, would you mind giving us at least one? ("in TNG S4 episode...."

Because, while not beingn that a massive ST fan, I enjoy the show it I think I have a fair chunk of all episodes, all series, and I can't remember any battles in Warp Speed...

Not saying you are wrong, but give us at least one example...

The earliest I can think of was Balance of Terror in the Original Series. It quickly turned into a WW2 sub hunt instead.


VS STAR WARS:
""The entire starfleet couldn't destroy the whole planet, it'd take a thousand ships with more firepower than I'veó" - Han Solo.

It would only take one 40k ship. The Furious Abyss, or Abaddon's Planet Killer. Or a ship armed with Two-Stage Torpedoes: (quoting)
Two-stage torpedoes are the most common of a special class of rare Exterminatus weapons, designed for use against atmosphereless or biologically-void worlds (Necron Tomb Worlds being the main example). These have two-stage warheads: The first stage is a melta charge that bores straight through a planet all the way down to its core. The second stage is a modified cyclonic charge that destabilizes it, in most cases physically destroying the planet.

So destroying a planet isn't unique to Star wars. Now onto the subject of weapons. Fighter weapons seem barely stronger than multilasers. You can tell by the effect their impacts have. (inability to penetrate reasonable armour, targets taking multiple hits unsheilded before succumbing). Capital ship weapons are pitifully short ranged and incapable of dealing with thunderhawk sized targets, a fatal flaw vs marauder squadrons. Even in their effect on other capital ships, the damage is localised and minimal. Ion cannons are unlikely to have much effect vs IoM due to hand loaded weaponry. Capital ship vs capital ship, point blank range, episode 3, individual weapons don't do much.

SW is just outclassed in every way.

VS STAR TREK:
I've been thinking about Starfleet's one advantage: Fast sublight speeds. But then I remembered that broadside batteries don't so much target the ship as saturate an area of space. It's why they're so good against eldar. A star trek ship would be annihilated if caught anywhere near a broadside, and they aren't fast enough to evade an entire region of space exploding around them.

Vs Star Wars

We don't know the limits of them engaging at longer ranges as they tended to use large objects like planets to hide and attack by ambush.

Vs Star Trek

They can travel 1000 times faster than light. How are they going to get trapped by a flak gun again?


carl, quite frankly, if laser cannons were kt level power, then every shot that missed in the battle of Hoth and the ground battle of Endor would have annihilated every ground troop on the battlefield, and burnt the jungle/vapourised the snow for hundreds of miles around. It would be physically impossible to have a ground battle with that kind of energy being thrown around.

Now I accept that it's possible (though again not shown on screen) that Capital ship weapons might be fractionally that powerful, but the weapons we've seen used in every single ground battle in all 7 star wars films have barely surpassed the capabilities of modern day armaments.

The power levels you're talking about are NOT documented in the films. Star Trek has also thrown out some stupidly high numbers as well that don't agree with what is shown onscreen. When there is an inconsistency, onscreen trumps extended background unless specifically stated otherwise. (such as Berman completely disowning the voyager episode 'Threshold'.)

Well with the level of power in a light saber it should flash the atmosphere around it to a plasma but it doesn't. Not to mention that Qui Gon was melting a blast door and somehow the close proximity of his hands to the molten steel didn't result in any burns. It is a movie.


I'll jump in, seems like a good mental exercise =)

Outproduce it? I have my doubts based on some of the facts presented in all the universes. Lets start with star trek.

In star trek, the federation accounts for, accourding to wikipedia, 150 member planets and their colonies. Okay. Let me just let that sink in for a minute.

We have the Voyager get lost in part of the galaxy thats been unexplored (at all) by the federation. Both the above statements leave me to believe that there is a relatively small number of worlds on star trek, and a small fleet. I would say the UFP Starfleet is about the same size as Battlefleet Sol, and that seems to be stretching it.

Now lets look at Star Wars and its numbers.
It's galactic senate was larger, showcasing that many many more planets were involved in the galatic republic than Star Trek's UFP. However vexxing, large armies were considered the few million clone troopers created on Kamino. Well, if a few million clone troopers form the core of the Grand Army of the Republic, then its in trouble facing the next group, the Galactic Imperium of Man.

The Imperium of man is described as numbering a million worlds. a huge part of the milky way has colonies of men or at least catalogues of it on record, impressive considering that the milky way is 200-400 *billion* stars strong. It's so large an institution that often whole planets and star system's are forgotten in the mountains of administration work. This is an institution so massive that it cant even comprehend its own size. However, it does have the benifit of its defense and organizational system : The feudal network.
Each planet is obliged to defend its peers in the system, and the call for help goes up the chain all the way to the segmentum fleets.

Out of a million + worlds, i can bet the shipyards and forgeworlds of warships is far greater than that of the list above described. Fighting a war of "attrition" against the imperium is foolhardy even when ork's are concerned. Only the unfathomable tyranid race is able to size up to the imperium of man's numbers in raw "manpower".

For every federation ship that gets smoked in a fight, even at the noble destruction of several frigates or even larger Lunar-class cruisers, it costs them dearly. For every Super Star Destroyer (which have only ever been encountered alone) that destroys 4-5 IoM Battleships , its loss brings down the number of SSD's into the single digits.

I would say both Galactic Empire AND Federation crew would be smug at seeing the ponderous ,gothic, floating cathedrals flying through space. They would begin to laugh and chuckle at seeing the sweatshops and chain-gang crew used by the imperium's gun batteries. The smiles and chuckles would probably fade just about the time the assault boats hit, smoke filled the corridors, and out pops a bunch of barely clothed, oil and soot covered ratings and armsman roaring out of a hull breach, all led by a man with a glimmering oversized fist, his scarred face covered by a peaked hat, or a robed and bearded man screaming out battle curses in high gothic while swinging an evisorator at the poor Redshirt/imperial navy crewman who stood in the way.

Or worse. The hull buckles out and instead of men coming out of the assault boat but armored behemoths, weilding weapons that cause terror and carnage that would be sickening to the "clean" sensabilities to the Galactic Empire and Federation warriors. In the pyschological war, you have a problem here, as well later on when the depressing realization that the war will never end as the imperium's monolith war machine marches on, and on, and on.


I think the imperium of man has to the most degree and the Galactic empire to a lesser one the advantage of time. While most of the warships and weapons of the imperium are clunky and antiquated, they have worked enough to survive and even dominate in a galaxy far harsher than those presented in star war's or in the federation. For 10,000 years the imperium has reigned as the big daddy, and you can bet some lessons were learned in those years that tell them how to fight a war.

Fighting a war against the imperium is something not many "conventional" science fiction human-oriented collections/governments/institutions could ever stand when looking at the numbers, i would imagine. Now, you throw in wild card's that are so bizarre and powerful then sure, kiss the golden throne goodbye when you have hand-wavium powers.


Rather than focus on the more "tactical" differences between all of them, and hence the hard points dealing with use of physics and all that, i looked at the strategic level.

It comes down to logistics. That is what wins wars and nothing else. 40K has an unrealistic number of planets that will support human life and the numbers are so high that they cannot track what any of them are doing. They may be lucky enough to stumble into a fight but their lack of coordination will spell the end for them.

Luckily in the 40K universe there is no enemy that could take advantage of that glaring weakness.

RCgothic
02-09-2008, 19:59
Vs Star Trek

They can travel 1000 times faster than light. How are they going to get trapped by a flak gun again?

They can't move that fast while engaging a target that isn't matching their velocity at warp speed. Engaging at sublight makes them as vulnerable as anyone else. And a 40k ship can move far faster than that through the Immaterium.

There are other sci-fi races that could beat the IoM in a war. The Federation, Galactic Empire and the 12 Colonies of Man aren't among them.

][nquist0r
02-09-2008, 20:29
They can't move that fast while engaging a target that isn't matching their velocity at warp speed. Engaging at sublight makes them as vulnerable as anyone else. And a 40k ship can move far faster than that through the Immaterium.

There are other sci-fi races that could beat the IoM in a war. The Federation, Galactic Empire and the 12 Colonies of Man aren't among them.

Its called the "Picard Maneuver." The ship Fires, goes to warp and Fires again. This apparently gives the illusion that the ship is at 2 places at once. Completely unstoppable by area saturation. Unless that area happens to be everywhere around the Imperial ship and I do mean everywhere. Which is of course impossible. Like I said before the only advantage the Big Cap ships have over a small ship like the enterprise is it's hundreds of attack ships. Even then though, they be fast and the Imperials be slow. *shrug* What would be more amusing is when the Imperial ship opens a warp apature and the federation ship is foolish enough to follow... Intruder Alert! "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!" Yeah that would really suck for the redshirts. Think the borg were scary wait till you meet Locutis of Khorne! lol

Lothlanathorian
02-09-2008, 20:30
Talking about phaser strength, let us not forget the episode when Riker is in the looney bin and he can't tell if he was in StarFleet or if he is crazy because they are messing with his mind. He whips out his phaser and sets it to 'maximum setting' and states that it would blast the building they are in in half. That is like...a hand held turbo laser destoyer. Trek pwns all since ALL of their 'combat troops' are amred with these things.

The problem with jumping to Warp while fighting IoM with Trek ships is the area saturation. Warp speed isn't some alternate deminsion, it is flying through space really, really fast. They still have to maneuver to avoid hitting stuff. Like flak and plasma rounds. Have fun avoiding the explosions all over the place.

Scorpius_78
02-09-2008, 20:59
I ask only because im not sure, do 40k have shields or are they just really well armored?

Killgore
02-09-2008, 21:42
The Last Star Fighter!!!!!!!

now that was one terrible film

The_Outsider
02-09-2008, 21:53
Problem with the handheld pahsers is they (even with their multiple settings) are as dangerous as they need to be.

SW and ST suffer from 1 problem that not even GW's mighty marines do (well, anywhere near the extent): plot armour.

Since Since the Enterprise/millenium falcon hold people crucial to the plot they can do just about whatever is needed to avoid situation X. Space mariens can do amazing things, but they have their limits and there is tons of fluff where marines get their heads kicked in.

Firaxin
02-09-2008, 22:05
[nquist0r;2916177']Its called the "Picard Maneuver." The ship Fires, goes to warp and Fires again. This apparently gives the illusion that the ship is at 2 places at once. Completely unstoppable by area saturation.
Erm, no. Easily stoppable. Eldar holo-fields give the impression of being in 4, 5, even more places at once. Yet area saturation broadsides have little problem taking down those particular xenos cowards.


Talking about phaser strength, let us not forget the episode when Riker is in the looney bin and he can't tell if he was in StarFleet or if he is crazy because they are messing with his mind. He whips out his phaser and sets it to 'maximum setting' and states that it would blast the building they are in in half. That is like...a hand held turbo laser destoyer. Trek pwns all since ALL of their 'combat troops' are amred with these things.
No. Artillery from WW1 could do that... Meaning it would be something like Str6 or 7, blast.

Although I could be wrong, that quote means nothing without telling us how large the building was.

Firaxin
02-09-2008, 22:14
when 2 similar sized vessels collide at full ahead in any universe, serious damage is meeted out.

No. Close, but not quite. Serious kinetic energy is released. The fact that IoM ships take so little damage from all that energy is a huge testament to their ships' armor efficiency and superstructures.

It's also a huge testament to their weapons when you consider how much more easily these weapons can take down an IoM ship than a city-sized projectile.

Chaos and Evil
02-09-2008, 22:36
The only fictional sci-fi race I know of that would stand a chance against the Imperium is the Culture.

And frankly, in that contest, the Culture wins.

Ravensgard
02-09-2008, 22:41
this is a very interesting topic, star wars and warhammer 40k, I think the starwars side gets lot of troops and hero's with some kind of witchblades and psy-powers representing the jedi or the sith. clone troopers would be like standard ig troopers but with 4+ save, maybe a s4 lasergun. Those walkers, and those carriers from the clone wars, could be challenging in a game. and those other races like the droids and so. I think star wars would be challenging for 40k races. Maybe even strong in game terms. The ships of star wars are fast, their weaponary may not be that strong but they shoot faster and maybe can find weak spots.

I don't know much about star trek but i think they would lose, I don't really see Spock holding of an orc, let alone a space marine, even not that Klingon dude would hold of a space marine in a fair fight.

I do know stargate (the first series), and those Goul'd have some heavy ships too.

There are many others who could be competitive against a force of 40k, but you must see it in their context.

Firaxin
02-09-2008, 23:52
Hmm...

I think an Imperial Stormtrooper would be BS/WS 2, initiative 2, Sv 5+, with a Hellgun. At least according to the movies, i realize they're very frighteningly disciplined as long as they're NOT shooting at people with the Plot Armor upgrade.

Rebel Commandoes would be BS/WS 3, initiative 3, Sv 6+ or not at all, with a hellgun and scout/stealth special rules.

Vong would be BS3 WS4, initiative 4, Sv 4++ (as power swords bounce off their armor) with special rules for their snake-sword things and razor/thud bugs.

Not really impressive when you think about how impossibly outnumbered they would be against even a basic IG taskforce...

Jedi on the other hand would be crazy, each a special character in their own right.

Koryphaus
02-09-2008, 23:56
In the end though, 40k ships have a lot more plot power than other scifi ships, simply because the limitations of ST, SW, etc ships have been written out in excruciating detail in spec books. If a 40k ship needs to do something, the author makes it happen.


Problem with the handheld pahsers is they (even with their multiple settings) are as dangerous as they need to be.
SW and ST suffer from 1 problem that not even GW's mighty marines do (well, anywhere near the extent): plot armour.

You two need to compare notes..


Erm, no. Easily stoppable. Eldar holo-fields give the impression of being in 4, 5, even more places at once. Yet area saturation broadsides have little problem taking down those particular xenos cowards.

Although I could be wrong, that quote means nothing without telling us how large the building was.

Well, any building larger than a garden shed is impressive to blow up with a weapon basically the size of your tv remote..;)

You mentioned Eldar - how do you think say, a Loronar Strike Cruiser or Star Destroyer or Romulan Warbird fare in a fight against them?

][nquist0r
03-09-2008, 00:07
Erm, no. Easily stoppable. Eldar holo-fields give the impression of being in 4, 5, even more places at once. Yet area saturation broadsides have little problem taking down those particular xenos cowards.
.

LOL your kidding right? Your comparing fields that make it look like a ship is in multiple places to an ability that effectively allows you to BE in multiple placers? Opps Im aft, no wait stern, starboard! Oh no... As spock said to Kirk in Wrath of Khan, "...tactics utterly lacking three dimensional thinking." :cool:

Raxmei
03-09-2008, 00:10
Even if warp combat shenanigans worked perfectly they wouldn't help much against an opponent you are completely incapable of harming. The gulf in firepower is really that big. Read anything at all about 40K space combat. Imperal battleships are intented to have truly stupendous amounts of firepower. Defensive turrets have firepower that makes Titans jealous and the main batteries can lay waste to continents. You can set off enough explosives to wipe California clean off the map right next to the hull and cause only minor damage. Federation ships can be destroyed by weapons that would only wipe out a large city. Ten thousand photon torpedoes fired all at once might possibly knock a void shield down for a few minutes.

RCgothic
03-09-2008, 00:18
Inquisitor, the Picard manoeuvre works like this: the ship is 20 light seconds away. It warps 10 light seconds closer. For 10 seconds there will be two images as the light from the further point is still arriving. To a ship with sublight sensors it is breifly confusing, allowing a strike to be carried out before they can accurately respond. The ship is never actually in two places at once. It's a rather weak trick actually, as the closer image will always be the correct one. Eldar Holofeilds are much better.

Koryphaus
03-09-2008, 00:26
And a cloaking device trumps that.

Nobody has mentioned Grand Admiral Thrawn yet.. :(

Adra
03-09-2008, 00:28
All i care about in this argument is the image of an Imperium Capital ship giving a full broadside to the belly of a super star destroyer and coring it out like an apple....

Firaxin
03-09-2008, 00:30
You two need to compare notes..
When they say 40k ships have plot armor, i think they mean 'the rule of cool.'



Well, any building larger than a garden shed is impressive to blow up with a weapon basically the size of your tv remote..;)
True. Then again, vortex grenades are the same size, even if they're very hard to replicate. *shrug*



You mentioned Eldar - how do you think say, a Loronar Strike Cruiser or Star Destroyer or Romulan Warbird fare in a fight against them?

Well I don't even know what a Loronar strike cruiser is, and I'm not enough of a trekie to say for sure on the warbird, but I think I can speak for the star destroyer.

Well, I think in order to be in range, it would probably be able to see the eldar ship with the naked eye, even if it was a tiny spec of light. Of course tie bombers and stuff that got close in would be able to tear through its paper-thin armor. But the SD would have trouble safely closing to engage.

][nquist0r
03-09-2008, 00:40
Even if warp combat shenanigans worked perfectly they wouldn't help much against an opponent you are completely incapable of harming. The gulf in firepower is really that big. Read anything at all about 40K space combat. Imperal battleships are intented to have truly stupendous amounts of firepower. Defensive turrets have firepower that makes Titans jealous and the main batteries can lay waste to continents. You can set off enough explosives to wipe California clean off the map right next to the hull and cause only minor damage. Federation ships can be destroyed by weapons that would only wipe out a large city. Ten thousand photon torpedoes fired all at once might possibly knock a void shield down for a few minutes.

Thats rediculous. Your completly not taking in account the side plot for this episode where Q has created this alternate earth encounter to punish Beverly Crusher for not truthfully telling Westley that Q is in fact his father.

Of course Westley overhears this conversation and realizes that his whole life he has made impossible things happen not through his intellect, but his Q powers. So after about 15 minutes of soul searching while the enterprise exhausts its abilities to negotiate, or fight off the Imperial ship he snaps his fingers and Resurrects the Emperor of Mankind, who happens to be another Q entity! (Oh noes!)

This thankful Q entity turns out to be REAL father of Westley and explains the trick that Q made to make them think it was him in the first place. They both cry as he describes why he "had to go away" when he was a small child. They both then take away Q's powers, and they all take turns bear ass spanking Q while he cries like a little girl.

Both Westley and the Emperor then snap their fingers as a huge barrage was about to destroy the enterprise and the Imperial Ship returns to its own dimension. The Emperor explains that he has to go back as well, but things have to be the way they were and he lacks the power to accomplish this alone. So Westley sacrifices all his Q powers to make it so that the episode never happens and thus Q is the only one to remember anything.

Episode ends with Picard playing his flute contemplating a photo of Beverley's family in his ready room. *Band Plays*

You see the Imperials cant win EVER! FOOLS!!! :rolleyes:

LexxBomb
03-09-2008, 00:42
Inquisitor, the Picard manoeuvre works like this: the ship is 20 light seconds away. It warps 10 light seconds closer. For 10 seconds there will be two images as the light from the further point is still arriving. To a ship with sublight sensors it is breifly confusing, allowing a strike to be carried out before they can accurately respond. The ship is never actually in two places at once. It's a rather weak trick actually, as the closer image will always be the correct one. Eldar Holofeilds are much better.

plus flak weapory will hit it anyway...
that tactic would never beat Lexx (the most powerful weapon iun the two universes)...
my planwet destroying eye beam will blow you up and then I would eat you as I am a giant dragon fly.

RCgothic
03-09-2008, 00:45
Yup, Lexx is probably powerful enough to take the entire Imperium.

The Andromeda Ascendant would probably be beyond the capabilities of the Imperium as well.

Firaxin
03-09-2008, 00:50
And a cloaking device trumps that.

This brings up an interesting problem for the Imperium.

Isn't there a Super Star Destroyer... with cloaking??? I can see that being a problem, but I don't remember if it was destroyed or what.

Grimbad
03-09-2008, 01:04
Orks would be able to beat a cloaked ship. They'd just throw their roks in all directions and wait till the roks start hitting things. Like throwing grots forward until you find a minefield, such a strategy would be extremely entertaining to the orks.

The most important question, of course, is whether or not a star destroyer could take on a void whale.
I doubt it.

Kage2020
03-09-2008, 01:25
Given the purported range at which 40k ships work, that would be a surprisingly difficult venture. But, well, this is 40k... 'Nuff said.

Kage

][nquist0r
03-09-2008, 01:40
Granted Lexx would win because it has a homosexual robot head, and a superhot sex slave. How could 40k compete with that?

FashaTheDog
03-09-2008, 02:02
I quoted Eddie Murphy last time I jumped in and I'll quote him again, "I may not be a tough guy but if you fight me in a movie I'm starring in, I'll kick your ass." In other words, who is telling the story? Them? Well then, they win.

Cavalier
03-09-2008, 02:19
Well, I'm not enough of a fan of any of these settings to be able to quote ship capabilities chapter and verse. But I think we need to have a few ground rules before we try and make any comparisons.

1. Primary source material is the most important. Background and secondary data (info from technical manuals, rulebooks, EU novels, etc) helps, but when it conflicts with primary sources, the primary sources must take precedence.

2. When primary sources conflict, we should ignore the statistical outliers and focus on the most often used examples. If episode 37 says that the ship can cross to the other side of the galaxy in two weeks, and episode 1590 says that it will take them a month to get from here to Planet X, which is 40 light years away, then there is obvious conflict. We need to ignore those examples and focus on what happens in the majority of sources.

3. Logic must take precedence as well. If technical data says that Johnny Space Ranger's handgun can blow a hole clean through the Earth, but we don't see the appropriate effects, then obviously the technical data is wrong.

4. If we haven't seen them do it, they can't do it. It does us no good to theorize that a strike team made up of Luke Skywalker, Robocop, and Nightcrawler could sneak on board an enemy cruiser, steal a vortex grenade, and set it off on the bridge of the battleship Yamato. So unless we have actually seen them do something like this, it can't be used. So Darth Vader can't force-choke the entire bridge crew of an enemy ship, or force them to lower shields, etc. If there's some technological auto-win button that Crew A should be able to do but have never done before, then it is assumed that some unexplained technological glitch or logistical problem prevents them from doing so.

5. The universe is neutral. Everyone's technology works as it normally does. Darth Vader can still use the Force even if he's fighting Master Chief on the HALO. However, the universe also does not magically solve problems, either. If your empire is embroiled in a costly war, it doesn't go away so you can go fight in the magical land of urination contest.

6. Game rules are not absolute. The BFG rules are no more 100% reality than are the old FASA Star Fleet Battles rules. However, those game rules can give us clues as to how certain ships and weapons are supposed to interact. Just because the main gun on the Robotech ship had damage listed as "destroys absolutely everything it hits, no exceptions" in the Palladium rules does not mean it would necessarily have the same effect elsewhere, but it is a good clue.

7. Nobody has read the background of their opponents in extreme detail. Captain Picard does not know that an attack on the Admech world of BFE VII will cause the Imperial fleet to turn around and go back to protect it. The Imperium does not know that an alternate Earth is the home of the Federation, etc. The purpose of this is to eliminate "instant win" maneuvers that nobody but a fan in our world would know about. "Ha ha, Superman, you're vulnerable to kryptonite!"

Can everyone agree on those? If not, why not?

Now I haven't played BFG, but I can smell a fish story. The idea that these weapons inflict six gajillion tons of kaboom just doesn't hold up. "Superscience materials" doesn't cut it either. The problem is, we have things like Thunderhawks and Tau Mantas in both systems. A Thunderhawk or Manta can be shot down by a few lascannons, if you roll decent. So we've got an "upper limit" of how tough they can be. Basically, they can't be so tough that normal ground weaponry in 40K can't hurt them. Now, both ships can also be shot by BFG scale weaponry, and can survive those shots (not really big stuff, I understand, but small stuff). That gives a "lower limit" on how tough they can be. They have to be tough enough to survive BFG weapons. So that means there is some (very small) degree of overlap between weapons in the two systems. Small BFG weapons can only be an order of magnitude or so greater than 40K heavy weapons.

The disadvantage BFG faces is that its ships are slow. They load, turn, aim, and fire like 17th century warships. They also move in-system very slowly. I read Angels of Darkness, and their ship took several days to journey from one planet to another within the same star system. That is a matter of minutes for many sci-fi ships. The other problem they have is range. While they can certainly fire beyond visual range, they can't orbit the Earth and shoot someone orbiting the Moon. Combat range and combat speed are their two biggest obstacles.

I don't know Star Wars well enough to comment on it. Saw the three good movies lots of times, and the three bad movies once each.

The disadvantage Star Trek faces is that its ships are ostensibly peaceful. Their first reaction will not be assault. They don't have dedicated marine forces to repel boarders. They aren't in a world of constant war. They are not expecting anything like the hostile approach the Imperium will take. They also suffer from a lack of high-end speed. A planet on the other side of the galaxy might as well be on the other side of the universe. They'll never be able to match the Imperium's high-end deep space travel.

Analysis: The Imperium (when not fighting 10 different major galactic threats at once) could send a huge, overwhelming force to attack the Federation. They would engage in a method of war that the Feds never see. And you thought the Klingons were brutal. However, the Imperium will quickly find itself losing vessels, even fleets. 50 ships warp into a system and begin a two day journey towards the inhabited planet. 2 Federation ships cruise a few million miles away (well out of Imperial range), firing phasers and photon torpedoes into the oncoming fleet, using their Impulse drives to outmaneuver and stay out of range. The Imperial ships will be forced to attempt risky in-system jumps to confront attackers that may be out of sensor range.

The Imperium values muscle over mind. This frequently works for them. It does not, however, work for them here. I just don't see why the Feds would ever let the Imperium get close enough to shoot.

DawnLord0
03-09-2008, 02:39
I found this site to be both intertaining and informative.http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/ Make sure to read the whole site.

Hellebore
03-09-2008, 03:40
Imperial ships CAN warp into orbit around a planet, it's just a risky manoeuvre. However the effect on the planet is ostensibly worse than the risk to the ship. This has been used to great effect in several conflicts (although I can't remember the specific quotes atm). Apparently the gravity well of the star and planets exists in the warp as well, which is what causes the problems. It doesn't make it impossible, nor does it make it unusable as a tactic.

If the only way to defeat the enemy is to jump right into the middle of the system, then that's what you do. You don't even need to fire your weapons because the effect of warp space on the planet will kill most of the life there.

Sure you might lose half your ships, but it only takes a warp capable ship to perform the jump. Send a dozen merchant vessels in on a jump then jump out again. Instafried planet. If the Imperium attacks the outer edges of the Federation drawing Federation ships away from the centre and then simply warp jumps to their homeworld they will beat the majority of the federation fleet. The feds will not be able to get back to the planet before the Imperium has already destroyed it. It takes weeks to traverse Federation space.

Star Trek shields will be defenceless against magic. The warp opens up inside the shield bypassing it completely.

Once the planets of the federation are destroyed (and there aren't many) the ships won't have a supply base or anything to fight for.

I think the Federation would be in crisis and fragment when attacked by an enemy like the Imperium. The federation would be following its high ideals of mercy and compassion whilst the Imperium would simply slaughter everyone in their way. The Federation would have to decide whether it's going to fight fire with fire or stick to its principles (and thus get obliterated).

Even the Dominion didn't fight like the Imperium. They wanted to conquer the Federation and bring it into the fold. When the Imperium sees the number of aliens intermingled with humans in the Federation it will simply go on a pogrom of extermination.

It would be an interesting thing to see, the ethical crisis. I wonder if the Vulcans would see the logic of using Imperial tactics against them...

Hellebore

Sekhmet
03-09-2008, 03:48
If you all want to continue this ridiculous debate, I propose this:

Become a LOT more precise on what you're debating. Is it really 40k vs SW vs ST? Is it the Imperium of Man vs the Galactic Empire vs the Federation?

Cause if it's 40k vs SW vs ST, it really could be the fully awaken Necron forces with 4 cooperating C'tan vs ... Starkiller... vs the entire Q continuum. Frankly, Starkiller wins because he's just awesome. But be precise!



Inquisitor, the Picard manoeuvre works like this: the ship is 20 light seconds away. It warps 10 light seconds closer. For 10 seconds there will be two images as the light from the further point is still arriving. To a ship with sublight sensors it is breifly confusing, allowing a strike to be carried out before they can accurately respond. The ship is never actually in two places at once. It's a rather weak trick actually, as the closer image will always be the correct one. Eldar Holofeilds are much better.
It's also a weak trick vs the IoM because, unlike the Federation, they have dozens of independently targeted weapons batteries.
"Lord Captain Commander whatever, where once there was one enemy saucer-shaped vessel, there are now two. Orders, sir?"
"Target them both with lance batteries and fire. ... Status?"
"One ended up being a sensor decoy, but the other has been eliminated, Lord Captain Commander whatever."

LexxBomb
03-09-2008, 04:00
I hope you realise that Starkiller is an inhouse joke referncing the name that Anikin Skywalkers was originally goint to be called.

Sekhmet
03-09-2008, 04:04
I hope you realise that Starkiller is an inhouse joke referncing the name that Anikin Skywalkers was originally goint to be called.

Yes.

Back on topic...

Cavalier
03-09-2008, 04:05
Imperial ships CAN warp into orbit around a planet, it's just a risky manoeuvre. However the effect on the planet is ostensibly worse than the risk to the ship. This has been used to great effect in several conflicts (although I can't remember the specific quotes atm). Apparently the gravity well of the star and planets exists in the warp as well, which is what causes the problems. It doesn't make it impossible, nor does it make it unusable as a tactic.

And when have they used this as a tactic?


If the only way to defeat the enemy is to jump right into the middle of the system, then that's what you do. You don't even need to fire your weapons because the effect of warp space on the planet will kill most of the life there.

Sure you might lose half your ships, but it only takes a warp capable ship to perform the jump. Send a dozen merchant vessels in on a jump then jump out again. Instafried planet.

I remember when they used this against the Nids. Oh, wait. I don't remember them ever using this.


If the Imperium attacks the outer edges of the Federation drawing Federation ships away from the centre and then simply warp jumps to their homeworld they will beat the majority of the federation fleet. The feds will not be able to get back to the planet before the Imperium has already destroyed it. It takes weeks to traverse Federation space.

This, however, does appear to be a valid tactic, provided they know where the homeworld is. But I think that's one of those "unavailable background knowledge" sort of tactics.


Star Trek shields will be defenceless against magic. The warp opens up inside the shield bypassing it completely.

You mean the Imperium uses magic now?

Koryphaus
03-09-2008, 04:08
Hellebore: Vulcans can be really, really nasty. Before the coming of Surak, they had weaponry which killed millions in the blink of an eye. And they've likely still got them too. If the only way to achieve the necessary goal (saving everybody in the galaxy) is to do A, but doing A involves everyone on planet D dying, then poor planet D, they died. Remember, the needs of the many outweight the needs of the few.


It's also a weak trick vs the IoM because, unlike the Federation, they have dozens of independently targeted weapons batteries.
"Lord Captain Commander whatever, where once there was one enemy saucer-shaped vessel, there are now two. Orders, sir?"
"Target them both with lance batteries and fire. ... Status?"
"One ended up being a sensor decoy, but the other has been eliminated, Lord Captain Commander whatever."

Because weapons in Star Trek are incapable of being independently targetted..? Or are you refering to the fact that an Imperial warship has dozens of them?

Sekhmet
03-09-2008, 04:19
As I recall, Imperial ships take months to travel through the Warp. It all depends on the universe you're in and how much of the plot is on your side.

You can easily say that if the Imperium were to attack the Federation, they wouldn't have the guiding light of the Astronomicon visible to their navigators, thus would be lucky to find their way anywhere without only staying in the warp for a while, then popping out to regain their bearings and jump again, like the Tau do. This would vastly limit their speed and effective range.

On the other side, their psykers would be free to channel the warp to its fullest potential, as there are no Chaos Gods or even remotely strong Warp entities in the Federation... assuming the Warp exists.

Koryphaus
03-09-2008, 04:32
Firaxin: A Loronar Strike Cruiser is a 450m long frigate. 2 actiing in tandem are considered the equal of a Victory Class Star Destroyer. Wookipedia link (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Strike-class_cruiser)

Sekhmet
03-09-2008, 04:34
Victory-class Star Destroyers are quite possibly the best Star Destroyers ever developed.

If Vader's Death Squadron had 1 or 2 VSDs, the Battle of Hoth would've lasted minutes, not hours.

Raxmei
03-09-2008, 04:40
The Thunderhawk and Manta in 40k scale are superheavies - very large superheavies in the case of the Manta. While it is possible to shoot them down with lascannons you need a lot of hits to do it. Titan killer weapons are more appropriate to the job. In BFG they are ordnance, and normally only engaged by other ordnance or defensive turrets. Said turrets are of titan killer scale, as already stated. They'd have to be if they're to destroy multiple squadrons of titan-sized flyers.

Feel free to name any time when Federation ships engaged at ranges greater than 400,000 kilometers. The longest range I'm familiar with is 300,000 for photon torpedoes in The Wounded.

Battlefleet Gothic Rulebook, Games Workshop, Page 97:
"The two Blackstones have taken up station five thousand leagues from each other, some seventy five thousand leagues from Fularis II and just out of range of the weapons platforms, except for the torpedo launchers."
Direct fire Imperial weapons have a maximum range of about 400,000 km. According to game stats battleships and space stations have about the same maximum ranges. Of course torpedoes and nova cannons will exceed this range.

Nightbringer, p139
"'Dread Archon! I am detecting an energy build up 300,000 kilometers directly in front of us!'
Kesharq hurried over to the warrior who had spoken and stared at the sensor returns in horror.
There was no mistaking the energy signature. An enemy ship was building power in its weapons batteries and was preparing to fire."
Ship in question is a Space Marine strike cruiser, which has a much shorter range than proper battleships.

Battlefleet Gothic Rulebook, Page 8:
"Battleships are the largest fighting ships in space. They can absorb a tremendous amount of damage and mount weapons batteries capable of laying waste to entire continents."
Battleship weapons batteries are capable of laying waste to entire continents. No hard numbers, but that's somewhere in the gigaton/teraton range. Caves of Ice indicates that a flotilla should do a very thorough job of it, hitting hard enough to destroy deeply buried installations and doing so across the whole continent. Doing this requires a lot of firepower, especially if you want it done in a reasonable amount of time.

I will concede that the Federation is much better at running away.

Sekhmet
03-09-2008, 04:46
300,000 km would be nearly an impossible range to fight at without guided weapons.

At that range, it takes light a full 1 second to reach its target, and at that range, the very slightest of miscalculated angles would result in a large miss. Any sort of unguided projectile or plasma-based weapon would never hit something at that range, you'd NEED something at the speed of light with a ridiculously good aiming device or a guided weapon. Even with lasers, you'd have to hope you're shooting at a big target and they aren't currently pulling off high-G random maneuvers to avoid enemy fire.

Basically, unless you're firing at a fixed target, forget nova cannons and imperial torpedoes.


By the way, the degree of error for firing at a 5km long target (which is very long) at 400,000km is 0.0007162 degrees. So you not only need a ridiculously good targeting system, you have to pray they don't slightly alter their vector between the time you fire a laser and the time it hits (1.3 seconds later).

FashaTheDog
03-09-2008, 04:48
But Sekhmet, would not having all those happy daemons in the warp also deny a few radical Inquisitors the undeniably fun idea of creating unbound daemon hosts to let loose on an unsuspecting Federation world? And besides the small scale stuff, wouldn't a major daemonic incursion on that one Federation vacation planet they all keep talking about be a hoot?

Sekhmet
03-09-2008, 04:50
But Sekhmet, would not having all those happy daemons in the warp also deny a few radical Inquisitors the undeniably fun idea of creating unbound daemon hosts to let loose on an unsuspecting Federation world? And besides the small scale stuff, wouldn't a major daemonic incursion on that one Federation vacation planet they all keep talking about be a hoot?

The fact that it hasn't happened by itself yet seems to draw the conclusion that the warp simply does not exist in the Star Trek universe, so Imperium ships entering that Universe would be stuck at sub-light speeds.

FashaTheDog
03-09-2008, 04:55
I'n not arguing the point about Star Trek universe, but just musing over how such things would be easier (and often far more entertaining) if the constants of both universess suddenly are super imposed over the other, if only for the use by the native one. This way we can also wonder about Q and Tzeentch playing what would basicly be galactic chess in the Eye of Terror or Jedi using the Force to counter the effects of 40K psychic power and vice versa.

Raxmei
03-09-2008, 05:47
If the enemy is shooting at a point target then you must make your position uncertain by half of your dimension of movement in the lag time. At one light second you have to be able to accelerate such that you are half your length away from your expected position in two seconds. If your ship is, say, 2 kilometers long (not very big by 40K standards), then d = 1000m. Since distance traveled equals .5at^2 and t=2s, we're looking at having to be able to accelerate 250meters per second per second to make a lance hit uncertain. Over 25g of acceleration required to have a shot fired at your expected location miss as a result of your movement. If the enemy is shooting at an area target, as weapons batteries do, add the radius of the target area to the distance you have to travel. If the weapons do not travel at the speed of light you can adjust the lag time accordingly.

Obviously this assumes light speed lances and neglects decision lag and whatever inaccuracy is inherent in the weapon system. However, the effective range of such weapons is already given, meaning that the inherent inaccuracy of lances is small enough that hits at such distances can reasonably be expected - that's what effective range means. It is a testament to the quality of the Imperial Navy's aiming cogitators that they are capable of such a feat.

I remember reading somewhere that torpedoes have terminal guidance, as you'd pretty much have to in order to hit anything that way. By the way BFG scales it should kick in at a few thousand kilometers distance. You do have more time to dodge, but the target area is now huge. Accelerating steadily at 25g you'd need over a minute to get clear. If the torpedo moves at even a sixtieth of the speed of light, a hypothetical target that can only accelerate at 25g is toast at one light second's distance.

The Nova Cannon threatens an even wider area (somehow, I don't know how, filling a very large volume of space with explosive death) and travels fast enough to be considered a direct fire weapon. Dodging would be much harder.

These numbers are made up. If you have better ones feel free to provide them.

olmsted
03-09-2008, 05:57
hmmm that is interesting idea. if whestly gets to use the q crap and all of star treks powers and star wars gets to use the force and all its good it should take in return all the bad of 40k.

Koryphaus
03-09-2008, 06:11
Q crap? What, the ability to simply do whatever he wants? That would really rain on the Big E's day wouldn't it?

Much like the Temporal Weapon Ship which featured in the Voyager espisode "Year of Hell" Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LeQTFqfvuk&feature=related), and Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-c52XKTnCc8&feature=related). It can basically target any structure, rock, building, ship, whatever, and simply remove it from time, making it so that it never existed.

Havock
03-09-2008, 06:15
imperial navy ships dish out quite large amounts of firepower, considering their weapons are powerful enough to create "petals of flame the size of continents" (which requires quite some input) and take that punishment in return sort of makes the fiddly Megatonne-ranged weaponry of star trek look like, well, fireworks.

ST however, officially it's about equal to 40k in terms of firepower, except that their travel methods are much better.
It's a bit limited by onscreen stuff though, 40k warships tend to fight at a... substantial portion of lightspeed, canonically.

Koryphaus
03-09-2008, 06:19
I agree with you Havok,TV screens must be about the most difficult thing to work with when space combat is involved. Either you make each ship a blip of light and have a really exciting firework fight between flies, or stick the ships really close together and have them sit still so they don't fly offscreen.

Hellebore
03-09-2008, 06:42
And when have they used this as a tactic?

I remember when they used this against the Nids. Oh, wait. I don't remember them ever using this.


To be honest I can't even find the background that says you CAN'T jump into a star system. A warp jump is a warp jump, taking you from one location to another. I can't find the supposed limits of the technology.

Why would they use it against the nids? Warp tunnels on top of ships aren't easy. They haven't even exterminatused planets when they've been consumed by nids, for the same reason they can't jump in - the planet and all the space around it is infested with nids. The imperium loses complete control of the system.




You mean the Imperium uses magic now?

The warp is magic. It fulfills all the roles of magic, allowing the impossible to be possible. Warp space is not part of our physics, it's used to circumvent it. There is nothing like it in Star trek, even the other dimensions are still part of reality. The warp is not.

Hellebore

RCgothic
03-09-2008, 12:20
Analysis: The Imperium (when not fighting 10 different major galactic threats at once) could send a huge, overwhelming force to attack the Federation. They would engage in a method of war that the Feds never see. And you thought the Klingons were brutal. However, the Imperium will quickly find itself losing vessels, even fleets. 50 ships warp into a system and begin a two day journey towards the inhabited planet. 2 Federation ships cruise a few million miles away (well out of Imperial range), firing phasers and photon torpedoes into the oncoming fleet, using their Impulse drives to outmaneuver and stay out of range. The Imperial ships will be forced to attempt risky in-system jumps to confront attackers that may be out of sensor range.

The range of ST weapons might be 100,000km, but this is never, ever, depicted onscreen. In every single case that a ship has fired on another, it has been within a couple of ship lengths. I would disregard ridiculous numbers as technobabble. ST ships clearly have to close to close range to fight, just like everyone else.
One of the advantages of 40k not having been depicted on the big screen is that what the characters say doesn't contradict what we see them doing. However the artwork shows them engaging at longer range than SW or ST have shown, but this is only because of the massive size of the ships. The targets are still no more than a few 10s of ship-lengths away. But in 40k vs ST vs SW, this is still much longer range than has been shown for ships from the other universes.

Koryphaus
03-09-2008, 12:40
The range of ST weapons might be 100,000km, but this is never, ever, depicted onscreen. In every single case that a ship has fired on another, it has been within a couple of ship lengths. I would disregard ridiculous numbers as technobabble. ST ships clearly have to close to close range to fight, just like everyone else.

You do realise that if two ships were to be shown at 100000km distance from each other, you would see nothing more than a tiny dot of light, set against a backdrop consisting entirely of tiny dots of light? It wouldn't make for interesting viewing.

elvinltl
03-09-2008, 13:05
Anime any1?

Macross Frontier
Kiddy Grade
Heroic Age
Gundam

Firaxin
03-09-2008, 13:31
Not sure why we should even bother looking at Gundam if all they have is Earth and the orbital colonies...

About 400,000km being too far to use direct fire weapons:
No its not. Not when they are specifically designed for area saturation, and each warhead's explosive diameter is the size of a continent, and each salvo fires off hundreds of shots.

Nova cannon burst diameters are hundreds of times larger, as big as some planets if your compare the template size to some of the cut-outs provided in the box.

"That's no moon..."

][nquist0r
03-09-2008, 14:35
How odd that orbital strikes only add a pie plate to the table. I seem to remember this conversation before. Roll for 1st turn I win, you lose. Lets play again! makes me wonder why the Emperor even invested in Marines in the first place. If its all shock and awe, yo blew up my planet! )=

RCgothic
03-09-2008, 14:43
"That's no moon..."
...It's yo mamma!

(sorry, couldn't resist robot-chicken humour.)

Koryphaus: yes, I do realise that actually depicting the battles at the ranges stated would be rather boring. But what is more likely. That what we see happening is wrong, or the verbal description of what we see happening is wrong?

Deus
03-09-2008, 14:58
40k ships: Large, not very maneuverable, large weapons arrays, incredible super structure/armor, huge ordnance.
ST: Small maneuverable ships (Comparatively), shield technology, teleportors, anti-matter weapons, time travel, phase shifting, cloaking, the omega particle.

In an every day fight between 2 ships, 40k will have it down, but in terms of a galactic conflict, ST has it, for the reasons of time travel, time weapons (ref: ST:Voy, Year of hell) the borg and species 8472 and the Q.

All in all, i think its best to leave these X vs Y fights out, but always fun to stir the put for a bit of discussion :P

RCgothic
03-09-2008, 15:05
I see no reason to believe that star trek has the edge in sheild tech.

Thanatos_elNyx
03-09-2008, 16:15
That's one thing that needs to be factored in, new battleships aren't constructed very fast in 40k.

Alright, now I will list all the Major shipyards in SW. Major meaning constructs warships. Also, it has been projected that in a few years a single shipyard (such as correlia's) could construct a decent sized fleet.

* Bestine IV
* Bilbringi
* Bothawui
* Byss
* Corellia
* Duro
* Eriadu
* Foerost
* Fondor
* Gyndine
* Hast
* Hapes
* Jaemus
* Kiris Asteroid Cluster
* Kuat
* Lianna
* Loronar
* Mon Calamari
* N'zoth
* Obulette
* Ord Trasi
* Rendili
* Rothana
* Selonia
* Sluis Van
* Tallaan
* Vento system
* Yaga Minor


I don't remember any of those from the movies and SW:EU sucks ass (i.e. it canonisity is questionable).

Cavalier
03-09-2008, 17:23
To be honest I can't even find the background that says you CAN'T jump into a star system. A warp jump is a warp jump, taking you from one location to another. I can't find the supposed limits of the technology.

Why would they use it against the nids? Warp tunnels on top of ships aren't easy. They haven't even exterminatused planets when they've been consumed by nids, for the same reason they can't jump in - the planet and all the space around it is infested with nids. The imperium loses complete control of the system.

My point is, I've heard people on this board theorize that a warp jump on top of a planet would be (to quote Ghostbusters) "bad", but I've never seen that happen in-universe. I think relying on something we've never seen actually take place, or even be verified in-setting, is not appropriate.



The warp is magic. It fulfills all the roles of magic, allowing the impossible to be possible. Warp space is not part of our physics, it's used to circumvent it. There is nothing like it in Star trek, even the other dimensions are still part of reality. The warp is not.

Hellebore

And how is the Imperium going to make use of it? You were talking about warp portals opening up inside a ST ship. I guess that might be okay, if you were fighting against Chaos sorcerors, but the Imperium's mastery of the warp seems somewhat lacking, to use in a combat sense. The only thing I could think of is teleporting Terminators on board, but they don't do that against the enemies they normally face in ship to ship combat. I can't see them suddenly deciding to do it here, randomly guessing that ST shields operate on some different "frequency".


The range of ST weapons might be 100,000km, but this is never, ever, depicted onscreen. In every single case that a ship has fired on another, it has been within a couple of ship lengths. I would disregard ridiculous numbers as technobabble. ST ships clearly have to close to close range to fight, just like everyone else.
One of the advantages of 40k not having been depicted on the big screen is that what the characters say doesn't contradict what we see them doing. However the artwork shows them engaging at longer range than SW or ST have shown, but this is only because of the massive size of the ships. The targets are still no more than a few 10s of ship-lengths away. But in 40k vs ST vs SW, this is still much longer range than has been shown for ships from the other universes.

You can't take special effects as gospel. I thought everyone automatically understood that. Virtually every sci-fi show ever created shows ships out of scale. In the same way, you can't take tabletop templates (as someone else mentioned in another post) as being accurate size-wise.

Star Trek ships have fired on each other at warp. I can't cite episodes, but I do know that I have also seen them fire at ships that were in orbit around other planets. Photon torpedoes have warp engines, and have been fired from the edges of star systems into the star itself.

In the original Aerotech supplement for Battletech (years and years ago), the rules for a dropship landing on a target said that everything within 3 hexes was absolutely destroyed. It didn't matter how much armor, how much protection, or whatever you had, if a dropship landed in your vicinity, you were dead. Obviously we wouldn't count that as a legitimate argument in a thread like this. I don't think "well, my template is this big" counts either.

FashaTheDog
03-09-2008, 18:12
What about that first Borg episode where Q tosses the Enterprise across the galaxy to meet them? If my faulty memory serves didn't a few torpedos get launched off at warp speed to try and slow the approaching cube, also at warp speed?

And while I'm still only at season 2 (I only get to watch it on DVD so what I own is what I see), doesn't the new Battlestar Galactica have rather long on screen ranges (relative to other shows) depicted using the camera to track rounds and missiles or jump back and forth between ship? Or when a nuke is lauched we watch the missile travel for quite some time before being shot down or hitting its target?

RCgothic
03-09-2008, 18:41
The base ships are the ones with missiles, though Galactica does have a relatively long range in terms of ship lengths compared to other sci-fi. Their ordnance is rather puny though. I feel afraid to spoil what sort of punishment galactica can take now, don't know how far you've gotten. What galactica does in S3e4, an imperial cruiser wouldn't recover from, although that's more due to the nature of the jump drive than the relative durabilities of the hulls.

Firaxin
03-09-2008, 19:19
In the original Aerotech supplement for Battletech (years and years ago), the rules for a dropship landing on a target said that everything within 3 hexes was absolutely destroyed. It didn't matter how much armor, how much protection, or whatever you had, if a dropship landed in your vicinity, you were dead. Obviously we wouldn't count that as a legitimate argument in a thread like this. I don't think "well, my template is this big" counts either.
I don't think that's quite the same situation at all. You're comparing an argument about damage output to an argument about area of effect.

Whether or not it kills the ship, the Nova Cannon has an AoE the size of its template.

Whether or not it could auto-crush a Capitol Imperialis super-heavy or the like by landing on/near it, everything within 3 hexes of that drop pod would take some damage, including the Capitol Imperialis.

Koryphaus
03-09-2008, 22:26
I don't remember any of those from the movies and SW:EU sucks ass (i.e. it canonisity is questionable).

So is the work of C.S. Goto...

But I quite like SW:EU. I like having the extra background and stuff.

Raxmei
03-09-2008, 22:49
40k ships: Large, not very maneuverable, large weapons arrays, incredible super structure/armor, huge ordnance.
ST: Small maneuverable ships (Comparatively), shield technology, teleportors, anti-matter weapons, time travel, phase shifting, cloaking, the omega particle.

In an every day fight between 2 ships, 40k will have it down, but in terms of a galactic conflict, ST has it, for the reasons of time travel, time weapons (ref: ST:Voy, Year of hell) the borg and species 8472 and the Q.

All in all, i think its best to leave these X vs Y fights out, but always fun to stir the put for a bit of discussion :P
40K ships have shields and teleporters as well. Omega particle was never successfully harnessed and research in that area is banned in the Federation. Time travel is heavily restricted and the Federation never intentionally uses it in warfare. Cloaking technology is banned in the Federation and often not terribly helpful anyway. The time ship from Year of Hell was one of a kind, not Federation technology, and never even existed in the current timeline. Bring in the Borg and 8472 and I accept your conecession that the Federation would lose. Q is better known for causing trouble than solving it. I recall him sitting out the Dominion War and leaving Voyager to rot in the Delta Quadrant.

Askari
03-09-2008, 22:54
I don't remember any of those from the movies and SW:EU sucks ass (i.e. it canonisity is questionable).

Well the ships you DO see in the movies must come from somewhere...

To chip in, I think 40k has the advantage, if for nothing else the Warp.

I mean, imagine a Daemon ship vs. the Enterprise.

"Lieutenant, hail that ship"
*bzzzt*
"Scan their armaments"
*bzzt, bzzt*
"What the..?"
"Reaaarrgghh!"
"Jones, what's wrong"
*Bloodthirster explodes from Jones' body... anarchy ensues*

With the Imperium, a similar thing occurs, just replace the Bloodthirster with teleporting Terminators, which the Federation casually invites aboard to talk...

ViperMagnum357
03-09-2008, 23:31
I think a valid point has been overlooked in the size of star trek ships-the imperium would attempt a boarding action when the trekkies invite the imperials aboard for peace talks. The Space Marines are ready to go, and when the hatch blows they jump out bolters blazing...and promptly get clotheslined by the low ceiling:wtf:. Seriously, every federation ship seems to have low ceilings to make all the average height people seem smaller compared to the bigger, more brutal species like 8472 or the hirogen. The Space Marines would fight on their hands and knees, and probably have to crawl sideways through doors. Terminators...they would have to rip out a deck and a width of wall with their powerfists just to move. The bridge and engineering seem to be the only places on a ship where a marine could stand. Any other thoughts on technical difficulties, while we fan the flames?:p

RCgothic
03-09-2008, 23:50
The halls aren't that small. About 9ft corridors.

Raxmei
04-09-2008, 00:07
Not to mention the most likely boarding party would be composed of naval armsmen. Space Marines are a tiny fraction of the Imperium's armed forces. Sealed carapace armor and a combat shotgun used aggressively should still be well up to the task. The Enterprise has been successfully boarded with much less.

Askari
04-09-2008, 00:15
Not to mention the most likely boarding party would be composed of naval armsmen. Space Marines are a tiny fraction of the Imperium's armed forces...

You are right of course.

However the image of Captain Lysander smashing Spock with a Thunder Hammer just can't leave my mind.:p

Aeolian
04-09-2008, 00:27
I'm pretty sure the navy has some sort of analogue of modern day SBS/Marines.

Didn't old fluff have Marines attached to Navy Vessels as Boarding Parties?

Cavalier
04-09-2008, 01:57
I don't think that's quite the same situation at all. You're comparing an argument about damage output to an argument about area of effect.

Whether or not it kills the ship, the Nova Cannon has an AoE the size of its template.

Whether or not it could auto-crush a Capitol Imperialis super-heavy or the like by landing on/near it, everything within 3 hexes of that drop pod would take some damage, including the Capitol Imperialis.

My point was only that game rules should not be seen as an absolute for what happens in-universe. I don't think a Nova Cannon would have a 10K mile wide blast (or however wide it would be given the size of the template -- I'm not a BFG player). At a certain point, decisions are made for the playability of the game. All template weapons in 40K have the same sized template, though I'm sure not every such weapon in the universe would have the exact same sized area of effect.


I'm pretty sure the navy has some sort of analogue of modern day SBS/Marines.

Didn't old fluff have Marines attached to Navy Vessels as Boarding Parties?

You mean the Federation fleet, or the Imperial Navy? There is some old Star Trek stuff that says they have marines on board, but the only guys we ever see in the show are redshirts. Of course, they have an endless supply of those... ;)

Deus
04-09-2008, 02:03
40K ships have shields and teleporters as well. Omega particle was never successfully harnessed and research in that area is banned in the Federation. Time travel is heavily restricted and the Federation never intentionally uses it in warfare. Cloaking technology is banned in the Federation and often not terribly helpful anyway. The time ship from Year of Hell was one of a kind, not Federation technology, and never even existed in the current timeline. Bring in the Borg and 8472 and I accept your conecession that the Federation would lose. Q is better known for causing trouble than solving it. I recall him sitting out the Dominion War and leaving Voyager to rot in the Delta Quadrant.

Fair point on the shields and teleporters, Im not as up to scratch with the backround.

One does not need to fully understand the omega particle to use it, the Feds successfully made it and had it bugger up on them to great effect, thats enough.

I seem to recall a time travelling Federation ship from the 29th century, the USS Relativity. And also a cloaking Federation ship, the Defiant and their allies, the Klingons.

Now I will grant that these are rare opertunities but the precedent is there, when things get tough, so does the federation.

Im not talking about the Federation losing to the Borg and Species 8472, I'm talking about the IoM losing to the Borg and 8472 and the miriad of other races :D.

Who needs plantary bombardment when you have the "Genesis device" :D

Back on topic of ship vs ship:

The only defence the trekies need for boarding parties is to wear yellow shirts, cause those red ones dont work :P

Koryphaus
04-09-2008, 02:26
Isn't there a Super Star Destroyer... with cloaking??? I can see that being a problem, but I don't remember if it was destroyed or what.

There could be I suppose, I cannot think of it off the top of my head though. There was the Executor, Luysanka, Knight Hammer.. Anybody else know the others?


Orks would be able to beat a cloaked ship. They'd just throw their roks in all directions and wait till the roks start hitting things. Like throwing grots forward until you find a minefield, such a strategy would be extremely entertaining to the orks.

Well, in Star Wars, Grand Admiral Thrawn tethered 3 cloaked Star Destroyers to a comet in the Bothawui system so that when the comet was closest to Bothawui they could spring out and attack.


Omega particle was never successfully harnessed and research in that area is banned in the Federation.

It also only featured in a computer game.


Cloaking technology is banned in the Federation and often not terribly helpful anyway.

True, the Federation is banned from developing Cloaking Technology by a Treaty of Algeron, an accord signed with the Romulans when they donated a cloaking device for the USS Defiant. However, that hasn't stopped the Federation developing their own anyway, as seen on the USS Monitor in The Return, by William Shatner.

Cloaking tech is always helpful. It is exceedingly difficult to detect, and some cloaks allow for the firing of weaponry (ref: Star Trek 6: The Undiscovered Country, and Star Trek 10: Nemesis). In addition to this, transporter function is unimpeded, engine function is fine (note, old cloaks used to release a trail of detectable ionised gas from the engines, but C24 cloaks do not). Sensor function is reduced, but only the use of the main sensor array - the use of which would give away your position and render the cloak useless.

The only real drawback of cloaking tech is that you cannot utilise your sheilds (originally this was because the cloaks draw so much power that sheilds couldn't be powered at the same time), but the tradeoff for being totally invisible to light, sensors etc is fair.


The time ship from Year of Hell was one of a kind, not Federation technology, and never even existed in the current timeline.

Hopefully, yes it is one of a kind. So what if it isn't Federation Technology? This thread is titled "40k Battleships Vs other fictional warships", not "40k Vs the United Federation of Planets' fleet of primarily exploration vessels".


Q is better known for causing trouble than solving it. I recall him sitting out the Dominion War and leaving Voyager to rot in the Delta Quadrant.

He offered Voyager help to get home several times actually, but they refused it on all occasions. It wasn't the end of Season 7, you see.;)



You mean the Federation fleet, or the Imperial Navy? There is some old Star Trek stuff that says they have marines on board, but the only guys we ever see in the show are redshirts. Of course, they have an endless supply of those... ;)

Duh, they have replicators. I thought everyone knew that.:p They can make as many shirts as they want, in whatever colour they like. ;)

Raxmei
04-09-2008, 03:15
Im not talking about the Federation losing to the Borg and Species 8472, I'm talking about the IoM losing to the Borg and 8472 and the miriad of other races :D.I was saying that the Federation would lose against the Imperium. If you really want to widen the scope of debate you can put the Borg up against the Necrons and see how things turn out.

I'm not even convinced the Imperium would lose to the Borg. Even after centuries of combat in which they should have been stabbed at least a few times the Borg are still charmingly vulnerable to bladed weapons, indicating that there are some things they can not magically become immune to. Indeed, some things are explicitly mentioned in dialogue to be beyond the Borg's ability to adapt to. Furthermore, the fleet in First Contact was seen still inflicting damage long after the Borg should have fully adapted to their weapons, showing that even after adaptation has taken place it is still possible to overpower their defenses. Imperial battleships have firepower so much higher than that normally seen in Trek that they shouldn't have much trouble doing so.

Who needs plantary bombardment when you have the "Genesis device" :DPeople who don't want to destroy the entire planet, perhaps? The Warhammer side wouldn't be terribly impressed by the Genesis device anyway, seeing as they are already familiar with Exterminatus torpedoes. And since the Genesis device was only ever used once and everyone who knew how it worked died, it's actually less common than the Chaos Planet Killer, which was built twice and could probably be built again.

Sekhmet
04-09-2008, 03:54
I don't remember any of those from the movies and SW:EU sucks ass (i.e. it canonisity is questionable).

Actually:
Mon Calamari, Corellia, and Kuat I believe are all mentioned in the movies. Mon Calamari is where they make.. well.. Mon Calamari Star Cruisers, the big flying pieces of excrement with blisters on it from Ep6. Corellia is the planet that makes Corellian Cruisers... and the Millennium Falcon. Kuat houses KDY (Kuat Drive Yards), which makes, among other things, Star Destroyers.

Koryphaus
04-09-2008, 06:33
I was saying that the Federation would lose against the Imperium. If you really want to widen the scope of debate you can put the Borg up against the Necrons and see how things turn out.

The Federation has no chance against the Imperium. Saying the Feds have a chance is like saying that the Tau are a major threat to the Imperium. Hehe, Xenos Scum.


I'm not even convinced the Imperium would lose to the Borg. Even after centuries of combat in which they should have been stabbed at least a few times the Borg are still charmingly vulnerable to bladed weapons, indicating that there are some things they can not magically become immune to.

Well, you can stab each and every one of them if you want..


Furthermore, the fleet in First Contact was seen still inflicting damage long after the Borg should have fully adapted to their weapons, showing that even after adaptation has taken place it is still possible to overpower their defenses. Imperial battleships have firepower so much higher than that normally seen in Trek that they shouldn't have much trouble doing so.

Well, to be fair, the Federation had spent the years since the 1st Borg incursion (Best of Both Worlds) actively developing weapons and defensive systems (Quantum torpedoes (the blue ones), regenerative variable harmonic sheilding etc) specifically to fight the Borg. The Defiant class destroyer was developed, the Federation's only true warship, specifically to fight them. Starfleet has grand plans for fleets consisting entirely of Defiant class vessels, specifically to combat them. And the fleet was being led by Picard, who has, in intimate detail, the knowledge needed to destroy them.

But, if anything, the Borg are more relentless than the Imperium. And the size of vessels doesn't matter either. The clever thing about the Borg Cubeship is that if you join 8 of them together, you get a much, much larger cube. Join 8 more of those together and it gets larger still. The Borg could quite happily keep doing that until they get a ship that dwarfs even an Emperor or Despoiler Battleship.

The thing I don't understand, is why the Borg only send 1 ship each time. Doesn't make any sense to me. In The Return (William Shatner) they are going to send a fleet of 12, which makes much more sense.


Chaos Planet Killer, which was built twice and could probably be built again.

Built twice? I did not know that.

Raxmei
04-09-2008, 08:29
The Federation has no chance against the Imperium. Saying the Feds have a chance is like saying that the Tau are a major threat to the Imperium. Hehe, Xenos Scum.I agree. Somebody else doesn't.


Well, you can stab each and every one of them if you want.. hat was just an example. Stabbing a few thousand of them at once with the pointy end of a cruiser would obviously be much faster. As would stabbing them with 30-foot diameter nova cannon shells, 200 foot long torpedoes, and various other large fast-moving objects. The point is that the Borg are clearly not invulnerable.


Well, to be fair, the Federation had spent the years since the 1st Borg incursion (Best of Both Worlds) actively developing weapons and defensive systems (Quantum torpedoes (the blue ones), regenerative variable harmonic sheilding etc) specifically to fight the Borg. The Defiant class destroyer was developed, the Federation's only true warship, specifically to fight them. Starfleet has grand plans for fleets consisting entirely of Defiant class vessels, specifically to combat them. And the fleet was being led by Picard, who has, in intimate detail, the knowledge needed to destroy them.Eh. Leave it to the Federation to look for a technological solution. Little nitpick: Captain Picard was not present until near the end of the battle.

But, if anything, the Borg are more relentless than the Imperium. And the size of vessels doesn't matter either. The clever thing about the Borg Cubeship is that if you join 8 of them together, you get a much, much larger cube. Join 8 more of those together and it gets larger still. The Borg could quite happily keep doing that until they get a ship that dwarfs even an Emperor or Despoiler Battleship.That never happened in canon, and probably wouldn't help. The only advantage I can think of for that formation is combining shield strength. Against an opponent that can destroy a cube a hundred times over with a single broadside you'll need an unfeasibly large formation to have any effect other than getting more ships killed faster. Then if you do manage to get that together the enemy cheats and brings more than one ship.

The thing I don't understand, is why the Borg only send 1 ship each time. Doesn't make any sense to me. In The Return (William Shatner) they are going to send a fleet of 12, which makes much more sense.Borg behavior has never made sense. This is intentional and meant to make them scary. Sending one cube at a time is similar to waiting for the boarding parties to blow things up before responding, just on a different scale.


Built twice? I did not know that.The first one was destroyed by a squadron of Lunar class cruisers at the Battle of Kharlos II in the Gothic War. Abaddon later used a planet killer in the 13th Black Crusade.

Koryphaus
04-09-2008, 08:39
But the cube was winning until Picard showed up, and wasn't going to have much trouble dealing with the rest of the fleet.

Oh, come on, it was a book by William Shatner, it can't get too much more canon that that. I know its not canon (in that it never happened in a movie or on TV), but 40k does have an unfair advantage in that basically everything that is written is canon, whereas Star Trek has been extensively documented and controlled by Paramount et al..

Cool. I like Lunar cruisers. They give me a warm feeling. Almost the same feeling I get from the Slaughter and Murder class cruisers.. If only I had someone to play BFG with.. :cries:

Sekhmet
04-09-2008, 08:48
The Defiant class destroyer was developed, the Federation's only true warship

Akira-class
Prometheus-class

Ethan Hunt
04-09-2008, 09:14
And also, more or less, the Sovereign class, with quantum torpedo turret, etc. Kinda a BB in fed terms.
That's w/out counting the Trek alien ships, they have plenty of warships.
It's funny to compare 40k shippies and tech to other sci-fi canons... but i tend to be a "everyone in his place" person, so trek on trek, SW on SW, etc... the technology is different, the design philosophy is different, even the way to use it is different. :D

Sai-Lauren
04-09-2008, 10:54
Akira-class
Prometheus-class
Steamrunner class, various fighter classes (as seen in DS9:A Call To Arms)...

In a stand-up fight, yes, the Federation would lose.

You really for one second think they'd engage in a stand up fight?

The Imperium's biggest weakness is that they are the anti-Borg - they don't adapt. If massive broadsides and torpedo volleys don't work, they default to... massive broadsides and torpedo volleys.

Plus their ships all have a charming design flaw, the rear arcs have no weapons, and agility is generally sadly lacking as well. A ST universe ship would just have to get into a battleship's rear arcs and open fire until either the battleship's power systems melted or their phasers did.

And against the Borg? The Imperium would take out one, maybe two cubes. Then they'd all be sporting point defence turrets and heavy armour - those attack craft, torpedoes and nova cannon shells wouldn't even get anywhere near.

RCgothic
04-09-2008, 11:15
Rear arcs having no weapons is less of a weakness when your ships are in a fleet in which every ship can cover for itself and you have escorts which combined are just as dangerous in terms of firepower as a cruiser is.

The imperium could easily make the federation enage in a stand up fight. You just engage targets they can't afford to lose. Vulcan/Andor/Earth/Betazed.

And I think you're SERIOUSLY overestimating the Borg's ability to adapt.

Raxmei
04-09-2008, 11:35
Going into the rear arc might work except for a few small details. First, as already mentioned, the disparity in power is bad enough that the Trek ship really would fail to harm the 40k ship even after expending all ordnance on it. A Galaxy only carries 275 photon torpedoes. You'd need thirty such ships emptying their magazines to match even one 40k torpedo strike. If you can manage that the Imperial commander might start to suspect your fireworks display is actually intended as an attack.

Then there is the problem of this scenario tacitly assuming a single battleship wandering around in space letting its attackers do as they please. Battleships normally have escorts, which quite often are facing different directions. Maneuver into the battleship's tail and you find yourself looking at a destroyer squadron's broadsides.

A nova cannon shell is the size of a three story building and moves at near light speed. You seriously expect point defense to stop that?
Torpedoes are larger than ten story buildings, move as fast as starfighters, and are fired in volleys. The Borg are never seen shooting at more than one thing at a time.
Lances and weapons batteries have the firepower to flatten continents. Even after whatever adaptation the Borg can manage against Imperial weaponry that should be more than enough to overwhelm their shields. Note how the Federation fleet with much less firepower than that was still inflicting damage on the Borg cube after giving it hours of sustained bombardment to adapt to it.


Obviously Starfleet is not a military organization. They're just a bunch of people who like to wear uniforms, carry weapons, travel in armed starships, and fight in wars. Not military at all. Completely peaceful. We intercepted no transmissions. This is a consular ship on a diplomatic mission.

Koryphaus
04-09-2008, 11:48
Akira-class
Prometheus-class

I didn't count the Akira class, because although the designer had envisaged a carrier/gunship type role, the DS9 Technical Manual lists the ship as having 6 Phaser banks and 2 Torpedo launchers.

Ah yes, the Prometheus, left that one out. Thanks :)!


R
The imperium could easily make the federation enage in a stand up fight. You just engage targets they can't afford to lose. Vulcan/Andor/Earth/Betazed.

And I think you're SERIOUSLY overestimating the Borg's ability to adapt.

1st you've got to figure out which targets they cannot afford to lose. The Federation doesn't rely on Astropaths for communication, so that might be tricky. Can the Imperium pick up subspace communication? The Federation lost Betazed during the Dominion War, and whilst a serious blow, it didn't prove fatal. I concede the other 3 would prove very much more so however.

No, I think you're underestimating it. All it would take is 1 assimilated vessel. Assimilate it, and all the data on board belongs to the Borg. Suddenly they know all your tactics, your capabilities, and they will incorporate it into their collective. If they like the Nova Cannon, they'll take it. And shoot you with it. If they like your void shields, they'll take them. If they like your gellar field, they'll take it.

Their curiosity might get the better of them if they try to use warp engines without the gellar field.. But as the information withing the computers will make plain the danger of that, they'll know about that before them as well. That is of course, assuming Borg have soul flames to attract the Daemons at all. Do servitors have souls anymore (being essentially dead)? Would they be possessed if the ship entered the warp without Gellar fields?

If they assimilate a Space Marine, they will incorporate every useful part of him, from his black carapace to the materials his armour is made of. And they will improve upon it.



Obviously Starfleet is not a military organization. They're just a bunch of people who like to wear uniforms, carry weapons, travel in armed starships, and fight in wars. Not military at all. Completely peaceful. We intercepted no transmissions. This is a consular ship on a diplomatic mission.

Yes, they love to fight in wars. :rolleyes: Starfleet is quite obviously the Federation's military wing, but it's primary mission is, always has been, and hopefully always will be, science and exploration. Not warfare. The United Federation of Planets is not a militarily oriented organisation. Unless you are refering to the Mirror Universe, which opens up a whole new can of worms.

Dinadan
04-09-2008, 11:54
That is of course, assuming Borg have soul flames to attract the Daemons at all. Do servitors have souls anymore (being essentially dead)? Would they be possessed if the ship entered the warp without Gellar fields?

If they don't have souls it brings up the question do Picard and Seven of Nine have souls having been assimilated and then un-assimilated? Although it does bring up the image of the Borg trying to assimilate Daemons :p

olmsted
04-09-2008, 11:56
to quote Revenge of the Nerds: NERDS!

Koryphaus
04-09-2008, 11:59
If they don't have souls it brings up the question do Picard and Seven of Nine have souls having been assimilated and then un-assimilated? Although it does bring up the image of the Borg trying to assimilate Daemons :p

Well I was thinking along the lines of the machine "shutting off" their souls while they are one with the collective. You know, no individuality and all.

Lol, a Daemonette transforms into a particularly shiny and interesting device, which beckons all "come-hither" like to the drone..

Burnthem
04-09-2008, 12:07
Does anyone else have a problem with the sheer abundance of time-travel in the Star Trek Universe? It just creates far more problems than it solves. Take ST: First Contact for instance, whats the point in a Borg Cube flying all the way to earth and then using the sphere to go back in time? Why not just go back in time whilst still in the Delta Quadrant and then travel to Earth. Or better still why leave Transwarp so far away from earth and let themselves get shot at when they could easily just warp close to earth and invade before anyone knows whats happening?

I know both 40K and SW have thier fair share of plot holes, but the complete ease with which most species seem to travel through time in Star Trek turned the whole thing into a farce IMHO.

Raxmei
04-09-2008, 12:15
1st you've got to figure out which targets they cannot afford to lose. The Federation doesn't rely on Astropaths for communication, so that might be tricky. Can the Imperium pick up subspace communication? The Federation lost Betazed during the Dominion War, and whilst a serious blow, it didn't prove fatal. I concede the other 3 would prove very much more so however.Just keep invading and you're sure to run into something important eventually. Who knows, while you're doing that somebody might tell you where the important planets are.


No, I think you're underestimating it. All it would take is 1 assimilated vessel. Assimilate it, and all the data on board belongs to the Borg. Suddenly they know all your tactics, your capabilities, and they will incorporate it into their collective. If they like the Nova Cannon, they'll take it. And shoot you with it. If they like your void shields, they'll take them. If they like your gellar field, they'll take it.Unstated assumption! First that the Borg will find a ship weak enough for them to capture, and second that it would be carrying any useful information. The first would mean poorly armed ships wandering into Borg space unescorted and lollygagging around in realspace long enough for the Borg to capture them. The second has such a ship having usefully powerful shields and weapons (then how did it get captured?) or plans for same (which the Imperium is notorious for lacking). It must be very convenient to live in a universe where the enemy does everything in his power to help you win.

jfrazell
04-09-2008, 12:16
Imperium vs. ST –too easy. Lets take it another step.

-Eldar vs. Membari (40K vs. B5)
-Necrons vs. First Federation (from STOS) or vs. Vorlons (B5)
-Nightbringer vs. the Organians (STOS beings of pure energy also)

And finally-and most cooly:
Billions of Nid ships vs. the millions of ships in the Zentraedi main fleet. Carnifexes vs. 50 ft tall Zentraedi soldiers, Biotitans vs. Zentraedi battle and command pods. Loving it.

Koryphaus
04-09-2008, 12:25
Just keep invading and you're sure to run into something important eventually. Who knows, while you're doing that somebody might tell you where the important planets are.

Not with the Imperium's attitudes of shoot first and not ask questions. ;)


Unstated assumption! First that the Borg will find a ship weak enough for them to capture, and second that it would be carrying any useful information. The first would mean poorly armed ships wandering into Borg space unescorted and lollygagging around in realspace long enough for the Borg to capture them. The second has such a ship having usefully powerful shields and weapons (then how did it get captured?) or plans for same (which the Imperium is notorious for lacking). It must be very convenient to live in a universe where the enemy does everything in his power to help you win.

Because it's totally impossible for them to find a derelict, or for them to isolate one ship during a battle isn't it? It's also totally impossible for the Borg to operate in fleets. Just because they tend to fight the Federation with singular vessels doesn't mean they fight everyone like that.

Just because you can't find it in your datacore doesn't mean someone else cannot. And they will know everything in your datacore. Anyway, those were just a couple of examples. I will go out on a limb here and make an assumption that the ship in question has engines. The Borg can work out exactly how fast the ship can move in realspace, and its maneuverability. They can then devise a method of shutting them down (ref: Q Who, where the Borg drain the Enterprise's sheilds and engines with their weapons).

@ Burnthem: It's not the worst movie for plot failings - that has to be Nemesis.

@jfrazell: Good idea, nobody's going to give an inch here (me included :)). It's been lots of fun, but I'm happy to call it a day and move on to something else.

Raxmei
04-09-2008, 12:26
Does anyone else have a problem with the sheer abundance of time-travel in the Star Trek Universe? It just creates far more problems than it solves. Take ST: First Contact for instance, whats the point in a Borg Cube flying all the way to earth and then using the sphere to go back in time? Why not just go back in time whilst still in the Delta Quadrant and then travel to Earth. Or better still why leave Transwarp so far away from earth and let themselves get shot at when they could easily just warp close to earth and invade before anyone knows whats happening?
There's a fan theory that time travel was the Borg's backup plan in case their Plan A of "send one cube and hope for the best" didn't work. They would have preferred to assimilate the Earth of their own time, since that's the one that has all of the advanced technology that is supposedly their reason for attacking in the first place. That obviously didn't turn out too well, so they tried time travel to possibly accomplish something. That explains why they didn't travel back in time before entering Federation space. I'm not satisfied with it as an explanation of why they bothered going back in time at all, but it's better than nothing.

Dinadan
04-09-2008, 12:34
Does anyone else have a problem with the sheer abundance of time-travel in the Star Trek Universe? It just creates far more problems than it solves. Take ST: First Contact for instance, whats the point in a Borg Cube flying all the way to earth and then using the sphere to go back in time? Why not just go back in time whilst still in the Delta Quadrant and then travel to Earth. Or better still why leave Transwarp so far away from earth and let themselves get shot at when they could easily just warp close to earth and invade before anyone knows whats happening?

I know both 40K and SW have thier fair share of plot holes, but the complete ease with which most species seem to travel through time in Star Trek turned the whole thing into a farce IMHO.Maybe they didn't want to risk running into their past selves and accidently end up assimilating their 'ancestors' thus taking them out of the time line meaning that they wouldn't have existed in the 24th centry to go back and assimilate their 21st century selves, so the timeline resets, so 24thC Borg go back, assimilate 21stC Borg, so..... B***dy paradoxes :p
Alternatively, in the Voyager finalee, doesn't it say that they need the transwarp hub to get to the Alpha Quadrent? Maybe that hadn't been put in place in the 21st Century, so if they had traveled back in time while in the Delta Quadrent they'd have had to build one in the past or would have had a long slog ahead of them (doesn't explain why they couldn't go to an uninhabited world near Earth, travel back in time and then carry on to 21stC Earth :rolleyes: )
Or it's just sloppy writing :D

Raxmei
04-09-2008, 12:50
Because it's totally impossible for them to find a derelict, or for them to isolate one ship during a battle isn't it? It's also totally impossible for the Borg to operate in fleets. Just because they tend to fight the Federation with singular vessels doesn't mean they fight everyone like that.Much easier said than done. See Scorpion, in which six months of aggressive contact gave the Borg no useful information. If someone outclasses them badly enough there isn't much they can do about it.

Scorpion is also notable in that after six months of conflict the Borg had learned to engage in fleets. They catch on so fast, they'll probably have figured out they have to build more pylons around the time the Emperor gets up from the Golden Throne.

Koryphaus
04-09-2008, 13:30
@ Dinadan: 21st Century Borg are a technologically advanced race in the Delta Quadrant - though whether they are a galactic power, and their actual tech level is unknown. They are the race responsible for repairing and returning the probe V'Ger (Voyager VI) to Earth after it was launched and fell into a Black Hole, ending up in the Delta Quadrant.

However, in 1st Contact, the Borg attempt to communicate with their 21st Century comrades, so either: they have a fast travel system in place or they are willing to wait the 70-80 years it would take a Borg vessel to reach Earth from the Delta Quadrant. And heck, its 2063 so time is on their side.


Much easier said than done. See Scorpion, in which six months of aggressive contact gave the Borg no useful information. If someone outclasses them badly enough there isn't much they can do about it.

They couldn't assimilate Species 8472 due to their unique genetic pattern and super aggressive immune system. The Borg have no trouble whatsoever in assimilating humans, or human technology.


Scorpion is also notable in that after six months of conflict the Borg had learned to engage in fleets. They catch on so fast, they'll probably have figured out they have to build more pylons around the time the Emperor gets up from the Golden Throne.

:rolleyes:

Raxmei
04-09-2008, 14:22
Not just a failure to assimilate individuals, but a failure to win a single engagement. Six months in and Borg ships were still vulnerable to 8472 weapons and had great difficulty hurting 8472 ships at all. Without an assimilation they had nothing. A live capture against the Imperium is also unlikely, but for different reasons. It may be physically possible to assimilate humans, but the Imperium still has to find a way to lose before Borg have a chance at winning. Even after that you have Imperium of Man vs a few thousand escorts (minus whatever got blown up in the meantime) based out of a couple hundred planets (again...), commanded by an admiral with severe brain damage. The Imperium would certainly notice they were at war by this point, but they've faced down worse odds before.

Koryphaus
04-09-2008, 14:52
Imperium vs. ST –too easy. Lets take it another step.

Agreed, and done past the point of sensible, relevant discussion.


-Eldar vs. Membari (40K vs. B5)
-Necrons vs. First Federation (from STOS) or vs. Vorlons (B5)
-Nightbringer vs. the Organians (STOS beings of pure energy also)

And finally-and most cooly:
Billions of Nid ships vs. the millions of ships in the Zentraedi main fleet. Carnifexes vs. 50 ft tall Zentraedi soldiers, Biotitans vs. Zentraedi battle and command pods. Loving it.

Tell me more about these Membari, Vorlons, or Zentraedi, jfrazel.

TheOverlord
04-09-2008, 15:51
Zentraedi are a bunch of 20 feet tall folks with kilometre long battleships in power armor, who are blue skinned and an irascible desire to blow stuff up.

They are the source of technology for the humans in the Macross universe (also pirated... I mean stolen... I mean known as Robotech) for making a half robot half plane contraption (which I'm either mistaking for robotech or Macross, I can't seem to remember, it's been years).

Don't know about the rest.

Sai-Lauren
04-09-2008, 16:28
Rear arcs having no weapons is less of a weakness when your ships are in a fleet in which every ship can cover for itself and you have escorts which combined are just as dangerous in terms of firepower as a cruiser is.

You won't get Sovreign class vs Imperial Battlegroup.

Soverign/Galaxy vs Battleship/Cruiser, Intrepids etc vs Light cruisers, all the way down to Defiants against Cobras. The escorts can't help the capital ships out if they're disabled themselves.

And with sub-space comms, you could easily have a ST battlegroup warping in from different angles, attacking a vessel and inflicting serious damage before they get their shields up (even Imperial vessels won't run with shields permenantly up), then running away again in different directions before overwhelming force can arrive to assist.

ST weapons are a lot more accurate than the massive broadsides, lances and torpedoes of imperial vessels - a launched torpedo is probably the size of an Intrepid class, but moves nowhere near as fast (full impulse is .25C), and inertial dampeners give ST vessels a massive agility benefit. Their weapons are targetting the shields weakpoints (where generators overlap, where the engine output and weapons fire distorts them and so on), wheras the imperial weapons might blast straight through anything they hit, but the likelihood of them actually hitting is a lot more remote (imagine every single shot you're making is on the anti-ordanance table).



The imperium could easily make the federation enage in a stand up fight. You just engage targets they can't afford to lose. Vulcan/Andor/Earth/Betazed.

Ok - what's 40k warp travel times/ly? And don't forget that 40k vessels have to travel out of system to engage warp drive, which itself takes a couple of weeks. Alpha Centuri to Earth is what - a month travel time?

Warp 9 is about 6LY/day, and there's no real requirement to get out of any gravity well. Alpha Centuri's about 18 hours away.

More likely, the Imperium would be too busy defending it's own supply lines and bases to engage in much aggressive action.



And I think you're SERIOUSLY overestimating the Borg's ability to adapt.
Best Of Both Worlds - the away team sent after Picard has phasers with rotating frequencies. Four drones got shot down before they adapted and blocked the frequencies. They also adapted to the plan to turn the main deflector into a energy cannon (which was theoretically powerful enough to destroy the Borg cube) - and at most they've got about two hours to rip all the knowledge from Picard's mind, analyse it, and work out countermeasures.

First Contact - one cube trashed a Federation battlegroup, including the Defiant - a vessel explictly designed for fighting the Borg - until Picard arrived up.

And don't forget a cube is roughly on a size scale with a Retribution (27 cubic km volume).

Over-estimating? Nah. One drone gets aboard, and with an Imperial ships crew, it won't be long before it's set up home, started assimilating people and begun hacking into the control systems.

In other topics:
Eldar vs Mimbari - Stealth Hulls vs Dathedi screens. Lots of flying around, with no shooting. Maybe the fighters will engage, but that would be about it.

Dribble Joy
04-09-2008, 16:36
Anything from the Culture novels by Iain Banks. A GCU can waste planets from several systems away. As for the actual warships....

FashaTheDog
04-09-2008, 18:01
Bunch of random thoughts and questions.

How well can the Borg stop projectile weapons? I've heard arguements that their shields adapt and block but the only thing I ever saw was in one of the movies or episodes where they were on the holodeck and Picard hosed a group with a Thompson submachine gun with great effect. Are there other references I missed? And what about things like chainswords and more interestingly, power weapons?

How well would the Borg be able to assimilate a Space Marine, what with their overenigineer immune systems? With it being clearly established that a Marine is immune to nearly all disease but details regarding the fine parts this would a Marine's enhanced immune system be able to resist nano-probes? I personally could see this going either way, the Marine's system taxed and crashing (possible lag before the whole passing out from the injection perhaps) or while feeling miserable, his system could repel the effects.

And would Star Trek shields block 40k teleportation? I'm not entirely sure it would as I believe I may have read somewhere that in 40k, teleportation is a quick shot through the Warp over a very short distance.

I just recently saw and episode where the Klingons and Federation have been at war for 20 year when an old Enterprise was not destroyed by a time travel incident. In that episode the Klingons were wiping the floor with the Federation, so wouldn't an Imperium versus Klingon fight be better, especially since the whole morality limits would be lifted?

How well would the Federation deal with a WAAAGH!? I could see Meks strapping phasers on to weapons just to add 'deffbeams' to the dakka and looting Federation ships to make them giant torpedos bashing the warp core around so it become unstable and blows. Plus the Federation's attempts at a diplomatic solution would be rather amusing:
"This is the Starship Enterprise, identify yourself."
"WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!"

Burnthem
04-09-2008, 18:39
Ok - what's 40k warp travel times/ly? And don't forget that 40k vessels have to travel out of system to engage warp drive, which itself takes a couple of weeks. Alpha Centuri to Earth is what - a month travel time?

A common misconception, 40K ships only have to get away from Gravity wells to enter the Warp, they don't have to leave a system entirely. However many civilised systems have regulated jump points on the edges of the system, therefore if you jump in close to a planet you will get blasted as you will be presumed hostile. This is why alot of people think they have to leave the system, but they dont.

As for Comparisons of FTL speeds, although 40K speeds vary depending on the Warps 'weather', when it works well it is incredibly fast. Voyager was stated as having a 75 year journey home at maximum warp, whereas ships in 40K take anywhere between 10 months and a couple of years to do it, depending on your source. So all this 'ST is far faster than 40K' is actually completely wrong when you compare the figures.

(as an example, look at the galaxy map in the Epic Armageddon rulebook, this shows travel times for across 1/4 of Imperial space to only be 6 months, which would take a Federation ship about 20 years.)

jfrazell
04-09-2008, 19:04
Agreed, and done past the point of sensible, relevant discussion.



Tell me more about these Membari, Vorlons, or Zentraedi, jfrazel.

The Zentraedi main fleet consisted of more than four million vessels. Their larger ships were on the scale of 5 miles long and fired reflex cannons that effectively disintegrated anything in their paths. They have a version of warp jumping as well, although much safer. Their standard trooper is the size of a fighter plane.

Vorlons and Membari were alien races in the Babylon Five universe. Vorlons were the 2nd oldest race in the universe-practically invulnerable to attack. Membari are a younger race, somewhat comparable to eldar (except for the dying off part). Very advanced ships in comparison to humans.

bassmasterliam
04-09-2008, 19:12
wouldn't landing craft be nullified because most of the ships we are talking about have shields? and with 1 or maybe 2 working death stars and a fleet of giant ships the empire would merk the IoM. think about it the Imperium sees this massive threat underestimates it because they are arrogant and won't improve their tech level and they will be off fight this giant force and mean while everyone else in the 40k unisverse attacks the undefended worlds thus destroying the IoM!

RCgothic
04-09-2008, 19:13
Again with the battlegroup. 2 cruisers, spaced a fair distance apart can give themselves complete cover fire into the others blind spot.

The federation has sublight speed and manouvrebility going for it, and that's IT. That isn't going to help when you have weapons batteries targeting areas of space rather than your ship. The borg wouldn't be much more of a challenge. Imperial commanders aren't above self-destructing parts of their ships that are compromised. Case in point: Battle for the Abyss.

Lothlanathorian
04-09-2008, 19:18
You won't get Sovreign class vs Imperial Battlegroup.

Soverign/Galaxy vs Battleship/Cruiser, Intrepids etc vs Light cruisers, all the way down to Defiants against Cobras. The escorts can't help the capital ships out if they're disabled themselves.



Sooo...since the largest ST Federation ship is still smaller than a Cobra, you make sense how?


Also, as far as the likelyhood of the Imperial vessels missing a lot, well, the math on that was done a while ago. Still pretty accurate.

Also, I promised myself I wouldn't post in this flame war the last time this topic came up, yet here I am for the second incarnation and I can't help myself lol

FashaTheDog
04-09-2008, 19:31
Funny how often that happens.

Sekhmet
04-09-2008, 19:46
The Zentraedi main fleet consisted of more than four million vessels. Their larger ships were on the scale of 5 miles long and fired reflex cannons that effectively disintegrated anything in their paths. They have a version of warp jumping as well, although much safer. Their standard trooper is the size of a fighter plane.

Vorlons and Membari were alien races in the Babylon Five universe. Vorlons were the 2nd oldest race in the universe-practically invulnerable to attack. Membari are a younger race, somewhat comparable to eldar (except for the dying off part). Very advanced ships in comparison to humans.

MINbari.

Minbari are very similar to the Eldar actually. They have a high concentration of telepaths, are a very coordinated society and are higher tech than everyone else except a couple species who evolved in the previous generation (millions of years ago). Their ships even look somewhat similar, with giant sails.

Although Minbari Sharlin-class cruisers have heavier armor, heavier weapons, are faster, carry more and better fighters, carry better troops, AND have stealth technology... they're basically superior in every way to every other race that evolved around the same time besides those that have technology given to them by the previous gen (Drakh, certain Human ships, certain other Minbari ships). There are situations where one Sharlin goes up against a fleet of another races' ships and comes out victorious, an example would be the Black Star in the Earth-Minbari war. By the very end of Babylon 5, Earth's most powerful ship, the Warlock-class, is on par with a Sharlin... because it uses borrowed Minbari technology and was developed with the aid of a race from the previous generation (although it doesn't use their technology).

Vorlons are one of the "first ones", actually the second race to ever evolve as sentient life in the galaxy. Like all the other "first one" races, they evolved past physical bodies and exist as pure energy. They're all immortal in terms of aging, they're all highly psychic, and they talk in strange ways. They have multiple ships capable of destroying planets in one shot. A Vorlon would probably be delicious to a C'tan, but fighting more than maybe two or three at a time could be a problem for even the Nightbringer.

Zentraedi - their weakness is singing. Luckily, no one in the IoM sings.

Federation - They'd lose simply because they occupy an area of the galaxy smaller than what the Ultramarines own. The IoM simply outproduces the Federation by thousands of times. Basically we have a situation where each IoM ship is better armed and armored... and they have far more ships. It's not a fair fight at all. Tau vs Federation would be more interesting as they have roughly the same production capabilities it seems.

RCgothic
04-09-2008, 19:50
Well, it isn't too embarrasing to say that the IoM would lose to beings that exist as energy.

DawnLord0
04-09-2008, 19:59
The Borg would get destroyed in fleet engagement and annialated in a ground battle vs the Imperium.

The only reason the Borg seam so powerful is because the Federation is so incompetent. In space the Imperiums ships have greater fire power, more armour,and a far superior grasp of starship combat.

The borg only have two typs of ships. The Cube and the sphere. There both lightly armourd ships with really bad weapon ranges. Any imperial cruiser would inflict heavy damage before the Cube entered weapons range.

And it may not be possible for the borg to even get onto an Imperial ship in combat. The only reason the borg can transport through Federation shields is because every shield in Star Trek has a frequency that you can exploite. I have never heard of any weakness like that with a void shield. And if a borg drone got onto a ship it would be faceing heavly armed troops armed with shotguns and chain swords. And of course, we all know that Borg drones are helpless against any sort of physical attack, whether it's the claws of Species 8472, the bullets of Picard's tommy-gun in STFC, a well-thrown elbow, or one the many kinetic based weapons in 40K.

Sekhmet
04-09-2008, 20:11
The borg only have two typs of ships. The Cube and the sphere. There both lightly armourd ships with really bad weapon ranges. Any imperial cruiser would inflict heavy damage before the Cube entered weapons range.

They actually have at least 4 types. Cube, Sphere, Scout vessel from a TNG episode, and a diamond-shaped thing from one of the later Voyager episodes.


Well, it isn't too embarrasing to say that the IoM would lose to beings that exist as energy.
Yeah. When the Vorlons got angry, they sent fleets of ships with planet-killers to basically wipe out any planet that showed any hint of siding with the other side. Even if just one person in power was former allies with their enemies, they'd blow up his entire planet. And as far as I know, a Vorlon cannot be killed with infantry-level weapons. They ran like 100,000 volts of electricity through one and hit it with hundreds of plasma shots, but all it did was make it angry.

Firaxin
04-09-2008, 21:38
The Vorlons sound like they're one of that particular universe's trump cards.
Just like the C'Tan/Chaos/etc are in 40k.

As psychic beings of pure energy, a better comparison would thus be against a C'Tan, a greater daemon, an alpha-level psyker, or what have you.

Raxmei
04-09-2008, 22:02
ST weapons are a lot more accurate than the massive broadsides, lances and torpedoes of imperial vessels - a launched torpedo is probably the size of an Intrepid class, but moves nowhere near as fast (full impulse is .25C),Probably? PROBABLY? The size of torpedoes is stated in the BFG rulebook. The size of the Intrepid class isn't too hard to look up. You weren't willing to do even this minimum amount of fact checking. You, like a few other people in this thread (not all of them) are bluffing your way through your argument with no real idea what you're saying. I personnally am tired of carrying the load of evidence for both sides. Somebody tell me how much firepower is carried in a typical photon torpedo and how you found that out.

As for a torpedo probably being the size of the Intrepid class, you're 450% completely wrong.

RCgothic
04-09-2008, 22:37
Intrepid class length: 343 metres.
Typical anti-ship torpedo (p28 BFG rulebook): 200ft+ ~~ 61m +.

It's still something you don't want to be hit by.

Sekhmet
04-09-2008, 22:56
The Vorlons sound like they're one of that particular universe's trump cards.
Just like the C'Tan/Chaos/etc are in 40k.

As psychic beings of pure energy, a better comparison would thus be against a C'Tan, a greater daemon, an alpha-level psyker, or what have you.

Nah, they're not the trump cards. They fight against an equally powerful race whose name is over a thousand syllables long.

carl
04-09-2008, 22:59
The Vorlons sound like they're one of that particular universe's trump cards.

I've been busy re-watching my B5 video's lately, hence my lack of participation in this discussion, but i wouldn't call a race that got sent packing off outside the galaxy by the younger races, (along with the Vorlon's arch enemies the Shadows), all in one battle the "trump card". That would be the humans really ;) .

p.s. BFG torps are so big any other sci-fi race would blast them out of the starts before they ever got close enough to be a threat.

Lord Zarkov
04-09-2008, 23:24
But given that they come in clusters and are moving damn fast you can only shoot so many, and then only once you're in shooting range, which doesn't leave long before they hit. Imperial warships are designed with such weapons in mind and are bristiling with defensive turrets which deal out quite a bit of hurt and they still end up getting hit quite a lot. Plus, while big, 61 metres is still a needle in a haystack on a space scale.

carl
04-09-2008, 23:46
Most Sci-Fi race's smaller cap ships aren't much bigger and are reguarly engaged at much greater ranges than what 40K ships engage them. The awful fact is that 40K targeting and tracking in space at long distances is crap. Prety much any other Sci-Fi race would be immune to 40K weapons through sheer jamming rendering everyones sensors blind via ECM. We've just been ignoring that point up till now because it makes the comparisions more fun.

RCgothic
05-09-2008, 00:00
Their weapons don't have to be amazingly accurate, because of the destruction they do to the whole region of space.

Raxmei
05-09-2008, 00:09
Being big cuts more than one way. While it does increase your target profile, it also increases the amount of firepower it can absorb.

A little note on Trek's track record of intercepting small to medium size objects on collision courses: This youtube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOZf4-k-Yns) shows some examples in its first 30 seconds. The Trek ships occasionally remember to fire the weapons. The objects that are barely even fired upon and often cleanly missed are 90 meters long, 50% bigger than torpedoes.

Edit: Found a better video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBDbVPimLB0). I am convinced. Trek ships will pinpoint even the tiniest weak points on Imperial ships and blast them with unerring accuracy from extreme range. And forget about ordnance, no way anything is getting through that volume of highly accurate fire.

Brother Gabriel
05-09-2008, 01:06
I really had a fun time reading all these posts here i have to admit. Even when im not very involved in the theme.
But one thing i want to say, how can a universe that dresses its navy and soldiers in pajamas ever hope of defeating the Empire of Man in an all out War?
Oh and not to forget the fact, that in ST the senior bridge crew always leads (is) the boarding/exploration party. The ST universe would just run out of officers after 1 week of war :D.

Koryphaus
05-09-2008, 01:41
Gabriel, are you telling me you don't know how comfortable pj's can be?

PotatoLegs
05-09-2008, 02:03
Going commando is preferable

Koryphaus
05-09-2008, 02:07
No, they only do that at Betazoid weddings ;)

Cavalier
05-09-2008, 02:51
Their weapons don't have to be amazingly accurate, because of the destruction they do to the whole region of space.

Okay, I've seen this argument put forth again and again, and I'm going to have to call BS on this. Not only do explosive shockwaves not carry a damn bit of force in space, but the regions we're talking about are so unbelievably vast that it is impossible to play the area saturation game.

Aeolian
05-09-2008, 03:03
Why would escorts be slow and unmaneuverable? Tell me that.

Because one cobra has enough firepower to wipe out several trek ships.

Raxmei
05-09-2008, 03:25
If anyone wants to point out the usual ranges of Trek combat and the usual acceleration involved in Trek combat maneuvers that'll give you a pretty good idea of how big an area must be attacked to assure a hit. Then you can decide if covering that area really is unrealistic. If you do not know any of the above information and are making statements about them anyway you are talking out of your hat.

Hellebore
05-09-2008, 03:49
Trek ships have trouble against solid projectile weaponry. Case in point Deep Space Nine novel about an entire race using them.

Exploding torpedoes will send shrapnel out in all directions at very high speeds.

Apart from which, trek ships use their warp cores as bombs on occasion, destroying pretty much anything in range.

An Imperial torpedo is a giant plasma engine that uses its fuel as its warhead. It's not a warp core, but then a warp core isn't 60 metres long either.

Hellebore

Cavalier
05-09-2008, 03:54
I just took a look at stardestroyer.net. I had seen this website before, and now I remember why I laughed at it the last time. The assumptions made by the guys doing the calculations are all, shall we say, staggering. They take pathetically vague bits of information and use that to calculate very exact figures.

One example made me shake my head. A line in a novel (to avoid controversy, I'll avoid saying which novel or even which universe) mentions that a particular underground base can be destroyed by a few barrages from a group of battleships, but the continent itself would be devastated. From this statement, the guy deduces an exact amount of joules from each ship. How many ships are in the group? How many shots will each fire? How long will the bombardment last? None of that is particularly important to the guy doing the math, who is all too happy to jump to a conclusion and then start plugging away at the numbers.

Cavalier
05-09-2008, 04:01
Trek ships have trouble against solid projectile weaponry. Case in point Deep Space Nine novel about an entire race using them.

May as well be a 13 year old's fanfic. Not canon.


Exploding torpedoes will send shrapnel out in all directions at very high speeds.

Apart from which, trek ships use their warp cores as bombs on occasion, destroying pretty much anything in range.

An Imperial torpedo is a giant plasma engine that uses its fuel as its warhead. It's not a warp core, but then a warp core isn't 60 metres long either.

Hellebore

So? What matters is what is in the thing.

The other problem with size is that those massive torpedoes are going to use most of their fuel just to get to the target.

Hellebore
05-09-2008, 04:18
May as well be a 13 year old's fanfic. Not canon.



So? What matters is what is in the thing.

The other problem with size is that those massive torpedoes are going to use most of their fuel just to get to the target.

Oh I'm sorry, are we now PICKING AND CHOOSING canon?

I could have sworn that trek ships have 100,000km ranges, but hey, if we go on the tv shows their ranges are in the 100s of metres.

Works for me. Either take it all, or only take the show. You don't get to pick and choose what YOU like as canon.

Imperial torpedoes have thousands of kms of range as illustrated by the BFG design notes. They still strike and destroy targets 1000s of ks away, which infers they have extremely sophisticated engines.

afaik trek ship shields can't stop other ships moving through them, so a torpedo is simply going to pass straight through the shield.


As an aside, the Golden Age of technology is described as almost Trekkian in its tech levels. 40k is built off the bones of that era, so just because the Imperials don't necessarily understand the tech of a plasma torpedo doesn't mean it isn't an extremely advanced piece of equipment.

They have onboard guidance systems and their power is enough to affect a ship from hundreds of ks away (a ship in BFG is represented by the point on the stem and the base is the area of space in which it is vulnerable to attack. This is described in the BFG rulebook as well).

They are also travelling extremely quickly so their engine doesn't need to fire much (the momentum of the ship being imparted to the torpedo and all that).

Anyway, I think I'll leave now. This is the 3rd thread like this to pop up and the results have so far been 100% the same. No one changes their mind so the discussion just goes around and around.

Hellebore

Raxmei
05-09-2008, 04:27
Imperial torpedoes have thousands of kms of range as illustrated by the BFG design notes. They still strike and destroy targets 1000s of ks away, which infers they have extremely sophisticated engines.Nit: Hundreds of thousands of km away. Thousands of km away is base to base contact in BFG.

I just took a look at stardestroyer.net. I had seen this website before, and now I remember why I laughed at it the last time. The assumptions made by the guys doing the calculations are all, shall we say, staggering. They take pathetically vague bits of information and use that to calculate very exact figures.If you want to do better you are free to do so.

PotatoLegs
05-09-2008, 04:36
Why? He's just pointing out how silly this is

TheOverlord
05-09-2008, 05:01
I believe that it is the inherent right of nerds to waste their time doing inane inconsequential things simply because it pleases them, so it says in the good book.

*points to every single member of the M.P.&T forum with a judging finger, then slinks out*

Brother Gabriel
05-09-2008, 17:51
Aint it good to be free.. we can do totally senseless things, just to get the time passing if we like.
Pajamas may be totally awesome in bed or whatever, but they are rather pathethic in war.

Oh and if ships can ignore the shields of a trek ship, so can a torp or a boarding craft.

Cavalier
05-09-2008, 18:03
Oh I'm sorry, are we now PICKING AND CHOOSING canon?

No, Paramount picks and chooses what is canon. Just like Lucas picks and chooses what is canon for SW. The novels have never been canon for either universe.


I could have sworn that trek ships have 100,000km ranges, but hey, if we go on the tv shows their ranges are in the 100s of metres.

Works for me. Either take it all, or only take the show. You don't get to pick and choose what YOU like as canon.

Imperial torpedoes have thousands of kms of range as illustrated by the BFG design notes. They still strike and destroy targets 1000s of ks away, which infers they have extremely sophisticated engines.

afaik trek ship shields can't stop other ships moving through them, so a torpedo is simply going to pass straight through the shield.

I did a google search last night just to see. Apparently photon torpedoes have had ranges described (in the show) as anywhere from 300,000 kilometers to 8 million. But as I said, I am not the biggest fan of any of these universes. I can't tell you specific instances because I haven't seen a Star Trek episode in probably 10 years. I do know that shields stop asteroids. I also know that at the speeds that ST ships move, they slam through shields and both sides blow up when there is a collision.



As an aside, the Golden Age of technology is described as almost Trekkian in its tech levels. 40k is built off the bones of that era, so just because the Imperials don't necessarily understand the tech of a plasma torpedo doesn't mean it isn't an extremely advanced piece of equipment.

Oh, I'm sure there are extremely advanced. I'm sure the Golden Age stuff was much better, too. The Imperium always struck me as a galaxy-wide Mad Max universe, where they understand just enough of the technology to be very dangerous, but not enough to make it look pretty or work exactly how its supposed to work.



Nit: Hundreds of thousands of km away. Thousands of km away is base to base contact in BFG.
If you want to do better you are free to do so.

I don't want to do it. There's not enough information to do it. It's like trying to prove Bigfoot exists. Someone says "well, if you're not happy with this blurry photo, YOU go out and prove he's real".

Lothlanathorian
05-09-2008, 18:58
There is a site, and a link was posted the last time this thread came up, with comparative ship sizes from every sci fi universe that I, personally, can think of. Unfortunately, I do not know what site it is and I haven't seen the link in here yet. If anyone knows what I am talking about and you have a link, then it is your duty as a nerd to post this link in here.

FashaTheDog
05-09-2008, 19:43
That would be http://www.merzo.net/ perhaps?

Lothlanathorian
05-09-2008, 19:54
That would be http://www.merzo.net/ perhaps?

I love you. That is the site. I shall not forget it ever again lol.

Marius Xerxes
05-09-2008, 21:46
No, Paramount picks and chooses what is canon. Just like Lucas picks and chooses what is canon for SW. The novels have never been canon for either universe.


I dont know how true that is for SW. As far as I knew the original Thrawn Triliogy was considered cannon.

Tanith Ghost
05-09-2008, 22:48
As far as ship to ship goes, I thinktrek holds the upper hand- unless the imperials land a blow, in which case the unlucky trek ship is dust.

My mind dreams up though, images of terminators teleporting to the bridge and massacring the crew there, and marines crashing through the hull of a trek ship, butchering all they find. Blasting great rents in the hull to open it to the void. Powerful librarians reducing the unprepared minds of the crew to soup.

][nquist0r
06-09-2008, 01:00
Cmon there are Vulcans onboard. They are psychic as well and can kill with their mind powers. Plus they have Vulcan-Kung Fu that can be only described as Chuck Norris like in application. Oh and they are like monkey strong.

Kage2020
06-09-2008, 02:10
A common misconception, 40K ships only have to get away from Gravity wells to enter the Warp, they don't have to leave a system entirely.
Erm, that seems to be bastardising both fan concepts and some of the "speed of plot" novels, which while they're canon doesn't mean that you have to accept everything that some writer dreams up. ;)

The original "warp zone" mentioned "warp density" as a factor preventing the safe translation of a ship from the matterium to the empyream, which is basically a way of hand-waving it to any distance that someone might dream up. Fans have brought up the issue of system population, a feature that seems to gain some credence in Counter's Battle for the Abyss, but at the same time...? Well, it's all pretty much a circle jerk at GW and BL.

If it does come down to a gravity well, or basically micro/stable gravity, then that means that LaGrange points are going to be incredibly powerful things. Incredibly so.

Are you willing to accept that in your 40k games? I personally don't have a problem with it, but there we go. it does dramatically change the nature of fleet-based warfare in the 40k universe. (Inasmuch as it has ever moved beyond the "Rule of Cool" approach of having big "cool" ships.)


However many civilised systems have regulated jump points on the edges of the system, therefore if you jump in close to a planet you will get blasted as you will be presumed hostile.
We're talking rather large distances, though the actual impact of that distance depends on how efficient you think that 40k engines are...


So all this 'ST is far faster than 40K' is actually completely wrong when you compare the figures.
Real time or subjective time to the travellers? I know the answer, but the question is there to suggest that, perhaps, nothing is ever clear cut when dealing with the 40k universe.

I still don't quite believe that this thread is going on. Wow. Testament to Warseer, methinks.

Kage