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Chapter Master Leonidas
02-09-2008, 14:51
I've been reading the Horus Heresy series recently as my interest in 40K has been restoked by the latest edition to be released and I was pondering the whole "God Emperor" thing, in preperation for the creation of my own chapter as a hobby project.
Back in the day, from what I remember the emperor in his golden throne basically just acted like a beacon in the warp, mostly helping ships to navigate through it.
Some of the Horus Heresy books imply he reaches out - while he's alive - to contact certain individuals psychically - and we know he's a powerful psycher so I follow so far. I'm guessing while he was alive he was much more potent as a force then he is now and I'm wondering if there's anything to the idea that the Emperor grants abilities to his most devout followers, or are they just natural talents or powers drawn ferom the warp, attributed to him?

Does the Imperial religion based around him hold any real water?

Urza
02-09-2008, 15:50
The Emperor is dead. Everything you have been told is a lie :D

The pestilent 1
02-09-2008, 16:09
Basically, anything you can find about the Emperor?
Add "May or may not..." to the sentence.

Seriously, It's kinda the point I think.

bobbles
02-09-2008, 16:18
His name is tracey, thats the only thing any one knows for sure about the guy

Shas'o Lar
02-09-2008, 16:48
Actually, we don't know even *that* much, 'The Emperor' i more like a title, while his true name has been all but forgotten. Oh well, he was born like 8'000 BC, so I'm not really surprised ;)

Fire Harte
02-09-2008, 17:03
Jammy old git!

Yeah, he is a lie!

UP WITH THE DARK GODS!

Shortseer
02-09-2008, 18:09
Back in the days of Realms of Chaos, you could give some of your characters (like Star Children) Gifts of the Emperor that would give them increased int, or initiative, or str, etc. But GW has moved away from that and hes pretty much a beacon, and a figurehead for all to rally behind.

He is still pretty effin powerful, simply because, through some additional psykers, he can pierce fierce warpstorms to help guide ships. But until he dies and reincarnates (maybe) hes pretty useless

Shas'o Lar
02-09-2008, 18:20
Well, I believe that the Emperor still has or at least had some kind of influence on the world around him, at least a few thousand years after his 'death'. Age of Apostasy comes into mind here - Sebastian Thor and the Storm of Emperor's Wrath anybody ? That's too important to be a simple coincidence. Of course, we may argue that it could be Tzeentch's (sp ?!) plotting or whatever, but I *want* to believe it was the ol' grumpy Papa Emperor behind it ;)

Fire Harte
02-09-2008, 18:35
@ Shas'o Lar, looks like Tzeentch has decieved you!

Good point though!

slaanghoul
02-09-2008, 19:13
Is there anyone alive in the current time frame that spoke to the Emperor when he was alive? I'm sure at one time or another Abbaddon must have spoken to the emperor before the HH. Anybody els that is alive that spoken to him? If so this person must be at least 10,000 years old

Lothlanathorian
02-09-2008, 19:49
Uhhh...Several Chaos Marines and Bjorn the Fellhanded.

Firaxin
02-09-2008, 21:00
I'm sure there are also a few loyalist dreadnaughts, mebbe.

On the matter of the Emperor aiding his own, there are many examples in the fluff of a person or party being mysteriously helped out, where the only explanation is mind-boggling chance, or, the Emperor.

Larkin the sniper, for example. He needs to snipe a chaos warlord but is having some sort of seizure so he can't. An angel appears and steadies him (he thinks nothing of it, because he often hallucinates during such episodes), he takes the shot successfully. As he's leaving he realizes silk from the angel's dress is wrapped around his gun, meaning she was physically real.

Gimp
02-09-2008, 21:16
I always thought the Emperor was named Abdul Goldberg and was born in what is now Turkey?

But I dout its canon

Caelnaethon
02-09-2008, 21:57
Is there anyone alive in the current time frame that spoke to the Emperor when he was alive? I'm sure at one time or another Abbaddon must have spoken to the emperor before the HH. Anybody els that is alive that spoken to him? If so this person must be at least 10,000 years old
Abbaddon almost certainly had direct contact with the Emperor; he was Horus' protegé, after all. The surviving primarchs also qualify.

Other than that... not strictly still alive, but Eldrad Ulthran was around at the time of the Great Crusade, and given his prominence among the Craftworld Eldar he may well have met the Emperor at least once.

DantesInferno
02-09-2008, 22:37
I'm sure there are also a few loyalist dreadnaughts, mebbe.

Perhaps not. Bjorn the Fell-Handed was part of Leman Russ' personal retinue towards the end of the Great Crusade, but I doubt the Emperor would have had too much to say to his Primarchs' subordinates (he doesn't even seem to have cared much about some of his Primarchs).

Other Loyalist Legions may also have Dreadnoughts whose occupants served with the Legion's Primarchs, but we haven't got any examples of that to date (indeed, the fact that the Space Wolves' example is specifically mentioned might indicate that on the contrary other Legions don't have still-active Dreadnoughts whose occupants fought alongside their Primarchs).


On the matter of the Emperor aiding his own, there are many examples in the fluff of a person or party being mysteriously helped out, where the only explanation is mind-boggling chance, or, the Emperor.

Larkin the sniper, for example. He needs to snipe a chaos warlord but is having some sort of seizure so he can't. An angel appears and steadies him (he thinks nothing of it, because he often hallucinates during such episodes), he takes the shot successfully. As he's leaving he realizes silk from the angel's dress is wrapped around his gun, meaning she was physically real.

Or the believer's latent psychic power being used unconsciously when they go into extreme faith-based emotional states.


Well, I believe that the Emperor still has or at least had some kind of influence on the world around him, at least a few thousand years after his 'death'. Age of Apostasy comes into mind here - Sebastian Thor and the Storm of Emperor's Wrath anybody ? That's too important to be a simple coincidence. Of course, we may argue that it could be Tzeentch's (sp ?!) plotting or whatever, but I *want* to believe it was the ol' grumpy Papa Emperor behind it ;)


Mind you, it's only a massive coincidence if you look at it backwards. Sebastian Thor saved the Imperium because the fleet sent to kill him was destroyed by warp storm, not the other way around. He wasn't the only person who could have toppled Vandire, he was just the one who actually did. There were plenty of other people within the Ecclesiarchy and other Imperial organisations who attempted to overthrow Vandire too. Most of these, however, were simply killed without any "divine intervention". Sebastian Thor only looks really special if you forget about all the other loyalists who didn't get so lucky... Someone in particular (in this case, Thor) winning a one-in-a-hundred-million lottery may seem hideously lucky to the point of implausibility. However, if you remember that there were millions of other people also playing that lottery, the fact that someone wins is not so unbelievable: indeed, if there are enough people, it's almost a certainty.

LexxBomb
02-09-2008, 23:27
yer but what you are fogetting about Thor is that it wasn't actually Thor who defeated Vandire. it was the founder of the sisters of battle after she spoke with a Custode... therefore direct link with the emperor. the emperor basicly ordered his execution and she carried it out. the custodes only follow the emperors orders.

side note. how come we dont see the cudtodes in the HH novels?

the_reaper
02-09-2008, 23:33
Whats his name? Who were his parents? Does he ever feel love? Whats his favorite colour god dammit!

Why is it whenever i ring up the Emperor hotline i get some snobby high-lord saying 'no-comment'??? Thats a premium line!

-reaper

PondaNagura
02-09-2008, 23:56
bob. sharon and dave. yes. gold. he's a galactic playa' and never calls you back...[sniffle]

born in 8000bc Anatolia, into a human family; his soul the result of accumulated souls of thousands of early psykers who committed mass-suicide in order to protect humankind, so that it wouldn't die out too soon.

he' s been a historical figure or at least somehow tied to them throughout history. no idea if he ever left earth prior to the great crusades.

The Hoff
02-09-2008, 23:57
For those in UK who watch Top Gear....some say that the Stig is the Emperor.

LexxBomb
03-09-2008, 00:44
stiggie the Emp
Clarkson an Adeptus Mechanicus wannabe
Hamster is Squat and
James May is an Inquisitor in disquise

Adra
03-09-2008, 01:08
Although He sits immobile on the golden throne it has been observed that every thousand years or so He swaps from one butt cheek to the other. No one sees Him do it and no one knows how.....scary huh?

Kage2020
03-09-2008, 01:26
And, thus, the 40k 'fluff.' Kind of depressing, hey? (And not in the "grimdark" sense, either!) ;)

Kage

FashaTheDog
03-09-2008, 02:17
SPOILER HERE!

Considering the age of the books this may have become outdated, but you may wish to read the first of the Inquisition War series from the early 90s, there is a part there where the Emperor on the Golden Throne says "hi" to one of his followers. The exact part starts on page 237 if you have the old green and black book with Draco standing on a Stealer.

Kage2020
03-09-2008, 02:36
And that is one of the ultimate points..

Outdated.

Not that I disagree with you, only that it is very easy to be "outdated" by the wage slaves of GW...

Kage

LexxBomb
03-09-2008, 03:54
I dont care if people think that because it is old it outdated and wrong.

all the fluff GW has published is with the Aim of ADDING to the background not changing it... sure they might forget somethings like the Ordos in The Inquisition are ment to be circles within a larger identity not each is a different arm of the inquisition...
As far as I am concerned the old fluff is JUST as important as the new fluff.

side note... does anybody know where GW printed that the Tyranids ate the Squat homeworlds... I cant find it and I have almost every sourve book published since 1998 (dont have the whote dwarfs as I live in Australia and we dont know if our copies are different to the US and UK)

Malevon
03-09-2008, 04:41
Squats never existed. They have been retconned out of the background.

It seems to me like sometimes GW suggests that the Emperor was just a powerful psyker who is now used as a figurehead and object of worship, but who has no real claim to godhood, while at other times, with things like the Assassin story, and Sisters of Battle faith rules, suggest that he actually is more than just an immensely powerful psyker and effective leader in a persistent vegetative state.

Also, since unlike other franchises like Star Wars or Star Trek, GW doesn't have a strict "canon" policy, it's up to the discretion of the reader/player to decide for themselves what to take into account. For the purposes of any discussion though, I think it's safe to discount old, stupid things, like the Emperor saying "hi," and both games being linked. It's fine and dandy if you want to play like that with your mates, but it's obvious that's not the line GW is pushing these days.

FashaTheDog
03-09-2008, 05:01
Well he didn't exactly say "hi." That was just my way of limiting spoilers, but you do have a point Malevon, some fluff has a tendancy to be fluffy and be lost to the in the Imperial beaucracy forever. Some is cleverly tied into something else like Genestealers were to the Tyranids, while other were cut away like Zoats. Some old playable races like the Slaan and Jokero are now obscure footnotes of no importance or in the case of the Slaan, simply forgotten. And then there's stuff GW says no we take it back like Marines with Shuriken Catapults (the mini that got me in the game).

LexxBomb
03-09-2008, 05:25
just because something doesn't get published anymore doesn't mean that it isn't in the game background.

Malevon if the squats never existed then
1. how come my 2nd Ed Guard Codex mentions them (going back a while now)
2. The Leviathan - massive vehicle used by The Imperial Guard and the Iron Fists. The squats make those ... The Adeptus Mechanicus doesn't... Now given that Usaker Cre3ed has one of these has his regimental command vehicle for those who know about squats this is proof that the existed.
3. If the squats never existed then who are the ancestral enermy of the Orks...?

Malevon
03-09-2008, 05:40
1. Something being mentioned in an out-of-print, no-longer-legal book is hardly evidence of anything. If it has information not conflicting with any more recent sources, that can stand, but I think most people would agree it "defers" to more recent publications if there is an area where they don't agree.

2. Easily retconned. (By which I mean that if GW wanted to mention Leviathans in something, it would be very easy for them to not mention, or even contradict, any Squat connections they at one point made.)

3. Demiurg are referenced as having an intense hatred of greenskins in some of their source material.

I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to use Squats in your own games or fluff or whatever, just that if there is an "official" background, Squats are no longer a part of it. It's pretty clear that if they haven't been mentioned or even hinted at in three rulebooks, dozens of Codices and supplements, and hundreds of White Dwarfs, novels, and other publications, they're not part of the background any more.

Faustburg
03-09-2008, 07:38
I always thought the Emperor was named Abdul Goldberg and was born in what is now Turkey?

But I dout its canon

Turkey, yes. Anatolia.

Abdul Goldberg is a mobster (or something) in the 1st edition scenario-ideas table. Never the Emperor...

MvS
03-09-2008, 08:10
This is one of the favourite topics on Warseer, and so the search function is your friend:

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36476&highlight=The+Emperor

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158623&highlight=The+Emperor

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154497&highlight=The+Emperor

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154169&highlight=The+Emperor

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=151359&highlight=The+Emperor

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150748&highlight=The+Emperor

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146100&highlight=The+Emperor

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146657&highlight=The+Emperor

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146473&highlight=The+Emperor

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146197&highlight=The+Emperor

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139386&highlight=The+Emperor

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144238&highlight=The+Emperor

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127805&highlight=The+Emperor

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125265&highlight=The+Emperor

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117885&highlight=The+Emperor

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76953&highlight=The+Emperor

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39316&highlight=The+Emperor

These are just a few of the threads! There are many more.

Also Wikipedia and the Lexicanium are good online sources of Emperor related material. :)

DantesInferno
03-09-2008, 08:28
yer but what you are fogetting about Thor is that it wasn't actually Thor who defeated Vandire. it was the founder of the sisters of battle after she spoke with a Custode... therefore direct link with the emperor. the emperor basicly ordered his execution and she carried it out. the custodes only follow the emperors orders.

Alicia Dominica, the leader of the Brides of the Emperor (Vandire's bodyguard) executed Vandire after she was brought before the Golden Throne by members of the Adeptus Custodes.

However, this only happened after about 70 years of Vandire's Reign of Blood, in which whole planets whose loyalty to Vandire was in question were purged by Ecclesiarchy forces. The precipitating event which led to the collapse of Vandire's regime was the emergence of the breakaway Confederation of Light on Dimmamar (led by Thor). After the destruction of the Ecclesiarchy fleet sent to destroy Thor, more and more systems joined the Confederation of Light, and formed an army which began to move towards Terra. At this point, Imperial organisations which had previously remained on the sidelines during Vandire's reign (such as the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes) began to mobilise forces in support, with the result that the Ecclesiarchy Palace on Terra (defended by Ecclesiarchy forces including the elite Brides of the Emperor) was assaulted by Tech Guard, the Imperial Fists, Black Templars and some other Chapters. It was only until the assault slowed into a bloody siege that the Custodes decided to get involved.

So to claim that Dominica and the Custodes defeated Vandire rather than Thor is to miss the point rather dramatically. Dominica certainly killed him, but only after a massive movement lead by Thor was beginning to topple Vandire's regime. And if the Emperor really did order Vandire's execution, why did he wait through 70 years of massive bloodshed and total meglomania, and until a massive resistance movement was about to topple Vandire before giving the order?

Canis
03-09-2008, 11:41
Alicia Dominica, the leader of the Brides of the Emperor (Vandire's bodyguard) executed Vandire after she was brought before the Golden Throne by members of the Adeptus Custodes.

However, this only happened after about 70 years of Vandire's Reign of Blood, in which whole planets whose loyalty to Vandire was in question were purged by Ecclesiarchy forces. The precipitating event which led to the collapse of Vandire's regime was the emergence of the breakaway Confederation of Light on Dimmamar (led by Thor). After the destruction of the Ecclesiarchy fleet sent to destroy Thor, more and more systems joined the Confederation of Light, and formed an army which began to move towards Terra. At this point, Imperial organisations which had previously remained on the sidelines during Vandire's reign (such as the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes) began to mobilise forces in support, with the result that the Ecclesiarchy Palace on Terra (defended by Ecclesiarchy forces including the elite Brides of the Emperor) was assaulted by Tech Guard, the Imperial Fists, Black Templars and some other Chapters. It was only until the assault slowed into a bloody siege that the Custodes decided to get involved.

So to claim that Dominica and the Custodes defeated Vandire rather than Thor is to miss the point rather dramatically. Dominica certainly killed him, but only after a massive movement lead by Thor was beginning to topple Vandire's regime. And if the Emperor really did order Vandire's execution, why did he wait through 70 years of massive bloodshed and total meglomania, and until a massive resistance movement was about to topple Vandire before giving the order?


We don't know why the Emperor waited that long (perhaps he's so far gone that it takes a lot for him to notice). Fact is it IS canon that the custodes took the sisters to see that Emperor and whatever occurred there caused them to completely renounce the man they had been loyal to for so long.

You can't really disregard something that is canon because it doesn't fit into your argument.

It is a debateable point as to whether Thor was guided by the Emperor or if it was without the Emperor's guidance.

I think there is enough evidence in the background to suggest that the Emperor's presence in the universe does occasionally lend a very real power to some individuals in mysterious circumstances. The Larkin incident is one example, as is the numerous saints, the manifestation of powers in the Sisters of battle and "lucky" warpstorms saving Thor and severely weakening Vandires forces.

There is a chance that the Emperor is not the only entity capable of doing this (the Tau civilisation would have been wiped out by the Imperium if it wasn't for a very similar "lucky" warpstorm). There is also the possibility that it is not the Emperor at all but some entity with goals which include helping the Imperium.

gotta love the mysteries :)

Faustburg
03-09-2008, 12:44
side note... does anybody know where GW printed that the Tyranids ate the Squat homeworlds... I cant find it and I have almost every sourve book published since 1998 (dont have the whote dwarfs as I live in Australia and we dont know if our copies are different to the US and UK)

It is in the foreword to the re-print of the Inquistion War books, to explain one of the characters there... It is just a joking remark along the lines of "but since there are no more squats in the 40K universe, hte hive fleet must have eaten them...", which has been distorted by word of mouth (or forum...) into the official canonical explanation by people who havn't read it themselves...

As has been said, Squats never were there (although recently commisar Yarrics failed campaign on Golgotha, chasing Ghazkull, has been returned to be alongside short abhumans, after a ret-con as an Adeptus Mechanicus world for a few edtions...), leaving the archetype of 'Space Dwarfs' to be filled with the Demiurg, whenever those will get further development.

DantesInferno
03-09-2008, 12:59
We don't know why the Emperor waited that long (perhaps he's so far gone that it takes a lot for him to notice). Fact is it IS canon that the custodes took the sisters to see that Emperor and whatever occurred there caused them to completely renounce the man they had been loyal to for so long.

You can't really disregard something that is canon because it doesn't fit into your argument.

I certainly wasn't disregarding anything: if you read over my post, you'll note that I did indeed note that the Custodes took Alicia Dominica before the Golden Throne, and as a result Dominica changed her allegiance and executed Vandire.

None of this is under debate.

What I was seeking to debate though, was the notion that this somehow means that Dominica and the Custodes "defeated" Vandire. The Custodes waited through the carnage of 70 years of Vandire's Reign of Blood until a large coalition of systems had united in opposition to Vandire under the Confederation of Light; and until regiments of the Tech Guard and four Astartes Chapters were assaulting the Ecclesiarchy Palace before moving against Vandire. This seems to indicate to me that these other factors were important. If the Emperor himself was against Vandire's regime, why nothing happen for the 70 years of Vandire's Reign of Blood? A far more plausible explanation seems to me that the Custodes simply wanted to end the bloodshed upon Terra as quickly as possible, and finally picked sides and approached Vandire's bodyguards.

Suppose Hilter had been assassinated by a group of his bodyguards shortly before Berlin was captured by the Red Army, and the war had ended as a result. Claiming that the conspirators had "defeated" Nazi Germany would ring a bit hollow if it left out the roles played by the armed forces of the Soviet Union, Britain and the United States (and others..)


It is a debateable point as to whether Thor was guided by the Emperor or if it was without the Emperor's guidance.

Just as it's debatable whether or not the Emperor actually communicated with Dominica after the Custodes brought her into the Palace. Who knows what she heard and saw (or what she thought she heard and saw)...


I think there is enough evidence in the background to suggest that the Emperor's presence in the universe does occasionally lend a very real power to some individuals in mysterious circumstances. The Larkin incident is one example, as is the numerous saints, the manifestation of powers in the Sisters of battle and "lucky" warpstorms saving Thor and severely weakening Vandires forces.

There is a chance that the Emperor is not the only entity capable of doing this (the Tau civilisation would have been wiped out by the Imperium if it wasn't for a very similar "lucky" warpstorm). There is also the possibility that it is not the Emperor at all but some entity with goals which include helping the Imperium.

It's like if you were to go to a meeting of lottery winners, and then decide that there must be some conspiracy at work, because the probability of all of these people having won the lottery is so ridiculously small. Of course it seems unlikely, you've already selected a selection of really lucky people to begin with. It's a specialised version of <post hoc ergo propter hoc> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc).

Sebastian Thor's survival was miraculous, but only when you forget about the millions of other Ecclesiarchy officials who didn't get saved by Warpstorms before they were executed by Vandire's forces. Thor's survival and rise to challenge Vandire may have been a one-in-a-hundred-million chance. But if Vandire was setting out to kill millions upon millions of his opponents across the galaxy, it's quite likely that somebody would get lucky. Thor's just famous because he was in fact the person who did get lucky...

Likewise with the Tau: their survival as a species only looks remarkable if you forget about the thousands of alien species the Imperium does successfully exterminate before they reach the stone age.

And as for the "any lucky warpstorms must be divine intervention" theory, remember that after Vandire took control of the Ecclesiarchy in a rather violent fashion, many of the Cardinals left on Terra who opposed him attempted to flee. Their ship was destroyed in a....wait for it....warpstorm! Vandire declared this to be a sign of approval from the Emperor himself, and continued his purge of the opponents to his reign.

Chapter Master Leonidas
03-09-2008, 13:40
It's been a couple of months since I read the first book in the HH series but doesn't the woman who eventually becomes a saint (maybe the first in the Imperial cult?) hear something or someone talking to her at some point...I got the impression that was supposed to be the Emperor but maybe I read too much or too little into that event.

FashaTheDog
03-09-2008, 17:53
Euphrati Keeler worshiped the Emperor while he was still walking about and through her faith was saved. And that miracle was while she was reading the Book of Lorgar so one could make the arguement that she was a latent psyker (or perhaps became one through the touch of Chaos, placed there to help found the Imperial Cult by creating a Saint and thereby spreading the Word) channeling the warp to protect herself. Speculation based on little to nothing but still it is an alternate theory that may have some foundation since such a thing fit the Word Bearers MO. As the Emperor was not on the Golden Throne at this point it does shy away from the main topic since at that point he was up and about anyway.

EDIT: Or are you refering to the part in the Whispering Mountains on Sixty-Three Nineteen when the astral voices cut over vox channels? That was not of the Emperor's doing, it was the taint of Chaos that would eventually transform Jubal into the monster.

Firaxin
03-09-2008, 19:47
If the Emperor himself was against Vandire's regime, why nothing happen for the 70 years of Vandire's Reign of Blood?
Why did The Emperor wait long enough for Horus to mortally wound him before obliterating Horus? Perhaps because the Emperor gives everyone a chance to repent, or to change their ways and come to the light (the last chancers for example). When it became clear that Vandire would not do so, the Emperor killed him through Dominica.



And as for the "any lucky warpstorms must be divine intervention" theory, remember that after Vandire took control of the Ecclesiarchy in a rather violent fashion, many of the Cardinals left on Terra who opposed him attempted to flee. Their ship was destroyed in a....wait for it....warpstorm!

The Ecclesiarchy on Terra itself, who presumably were supposed to be more devout than the Ecclesiarchy on any other planet (because it's a privledge to worship so close to the Emperor), fled Terra rather than follow the Emperor and oppose Vandire. If I was the Emperor, I'd be pretty pissed. I wouldn't let them escape, I'd destroy them in perhaps the worst way possible (lost in a warp storm. ever read that poem/prayer for souls lost in the warp?) as an example to any others who try to run from their duty.

DantesInferno
03-09-2008, 22:47
Why did The Emperor wait long enough for Horus to mortally wound him before obliterating Horus? Perhaps because the Emperor gives everyone a chance to repent, or to change their ways and come to the light (the last chancers for example). When it became clear that Vandire would not do so, the Emperor killed him through Dominica.

This is one possible (but as far as I can tell, highly implausible) explanation for what happened. The far more simple explanation is that the Custodes realised that Vandire's regime was falling when a widespread galactic campaign of resistance had taken hold and Vandire's own palace was being assaulted by the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Adeptus Astartes. As such, they resolved to end the fighting as quickly as possible, by approaching the leader of Vandire's bodyguards.


The Ecclesiarchy on Terra itself, who presumably were supposed to be more devout than the Ecclesiarchy on any other planet (because it's a privledge to worship so close to the Emperor), fled Terra rather than follow the Emperor and oppose Vandire. If I was the Emperor, I'd be pretty pissed. I wouldn't let them escape, I'd destroy them in perhaps the worst way possible (lost in a warp storm. ever read that poem/prayer for souls lost in the warp?) as an example to any others who try to run from their duty.

Vandire had firmly established himself on Terra as both Ecclesiarch and Master of the Administratum (the two most powerful positions in the modern Imperium). He then began systematically exterminating all those in the Ecclesiarchy hierarchy who openly opposed him, or whose loyalty was in question. The Cardinals who fled were those who recognised they had no hope of successfully standing against Vandire on Terra, his power base, and so were fleeing to other Ecclesiarchy strongholds (such as Ophelia VII) to gather support against Vandire.

And I must say I'm more than a bit amused by the suggestion that the Emperor is so determined to allow people to repent and redeem themselves that he allows Vandire to have a 70 year reign of bloodshed, in which millions of those loyal to the Emperor are slaughtered and brings the Imperium the closest to collapse it has been since the Heresy. However, he destroys on the spot the Cardinals loyal to him who are hoping to topple the aforementioned paranoid, bloodthirsty meglomaniac.

If you're happy with that, suit yourself. I really have no idea why you'd even want to reconcile these positions, though. Not every warpstorm that occurs has to necessarily be the product of some divine agency.

MvS
04-09-2008, 00:41
Although we have to admit there's a possibility that the Emperor was so 'weak' (or whatever) at that time that it took a long for whatever remains of his consciousness to notice anything was wrong and then communicate it to his Custodes...

imperial_scholar
04-09-2008, 00:50
This is one of the favourite topics on Warseer, and so the search function is your friend:

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36476&highlight=The+Emperor

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158623&highlight=The+Emperor

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154497&highlight=The+Emperor

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154169&highlight=The+Emperor

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=151359&highlight=The+Emperor

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150748&highlight=The+Emperor

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146100&highlight=The+Emperor

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146657&highlight=The+Emperor

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146473&highlight=The+Emperor

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146197&highlight=The+Emperor

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139386&highlight=The+Emperor

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144238&highlight=The+Emperor

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127805&highlight=The+Emperor

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125265&highlight=The+Emperor

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117885&highlight=The+Emperor

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76953&highlight=The+Emperor

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39316&highlight=The+Emperor

These are just a few of the threads! There are many more.

Also Wikipedia and the Lexicanium are good online sources of Emperor related material. :)

+1 jebeus.. please use the search function **rolls eyes**. Give (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157863) me (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136343) a (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158274) topic (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118642) I can sink my teeth into!

MvS
04-09-2008, 01:11
Calories, Exterimnatus, Drop Pods and Orks!

No man! Get with the program! It's the God Emperor here...!

DantesInferno
04-09-2008, 08:32
Although we have to admit there's a possibility that the Emperor was so 'weak' (or whatever) at that time that it took a long for whatever remains of his consciousness to notice anything was wrong and then communicate it to his Custodes...

Sure there's a possibility that the Emperor told the Custodes as quickly as he could that Vandire was to be eliminated. It just looks a bit odd that it would happen after 70 years, just as a massive galactic campaign to topple Vandire's regime is about to reach Terra and the Ecclesiarchy Palace is under siege by the Adeptus Astartes and Adeptus Mechanicus. But sure, possible. I don't think it's the most likely explanation.

I'm not sure how well that theory would fit with Firaxin's claim that the Emperor destroyed the Cardinals who fled imminent death on Terra to gather support against Vandire, though. The Emperor immediately summons a warpstorm to destroy his loyal Cardinals, but it takes him 70 years to work out that Vandire is destroying the Imperium and communicate as much to his Custodes?

LexxBomb
04-09-2008, 08:38
remember the Emperor is scitzophrenic and as such as mutiple personalities and each one has a diffrent agenda. so it is plausible...
part of him new about the Ordo Hydra and part of him didn't

Chapter Master Leonidas
04-09-2008, 14:16
where's it indicated or implied that he's schizo?

TheOverlord
04-09-2008, 15:37
Schizophrenia does not mean multiple personalities, it means he hears voices, among other stuff.

Just so you know.

*zips back out*

FashaTheDog
04-09-2008, 16:54
SPOILER!

More specifically it is not being able to tell reality from delusion, almost like a permenant acid trip.

He's refering to the part in Inquisitor that I brought up as the Emperor constantly refers to himself(selves?) as we. While saying the Emperor has schozophrenia may not be inaccurate, as I'll bet anyone who spend 10 mellienia floating between life and death with only the Warp and the Chaos gods for company may very well become (and thus may contribute some to the whole other bit about Vandire), you are right TheOverlord, his context for the diagnosis was off. Although just to look at it differently, it could have been the Emperor was indeed have a schizophrenic episode believing that he was with others and thought he was speaking on behalf of an imagined group that was around him, as opposed to multiple personalities all speaking as group.

McPherson
04-09-2008, 17:18
SPOILER!

More specifically it is not being able to tell reality from delusion, almost like a permenant acid trip.

He's refering to the part in Inquisitor that I brought up as the Emperor constantly refers to himself(selves?) as we. While saying the Emperor has schozophrenia may not be inaccurate, as I'll bet anyone who spend 10 mellienia floating between life and death with only the Warp and the Chaos gods for company may very well become (and thus may contribute some to the whole other bit about Vandire), you are right TheOverlord, his context for the diagnosis was off. Although just to look at it differently, it could have been the Emperor was indeed have a schizophrenic episode believing that he was with others and thought he was speaking on behalf of an imagined group that was around him, as opposed to multiple personalities all speaking as group.

Could of been a Royal 'we' like the Royal family uses.

After all GW is british - so I'm sure things like that are ingrained deep within their writers psyche's.

- McPherson

Wolf Scout Ewan
04-09-2008, 17:49
In Ravenor the ship captain claims he has squat heritage. So its not been retconned out.

The Emporer on the other hand has been on the verge of death for such a long time that 70 years is probably like a blink of an eye.

FashaTheDog
04-09-2008, 18:17
Now that I think about it, perhaps there is nothing wrong with that we afterall. It could be that after 10,000 years of only having the Chaos gods for company, the Emperor may have become friends with them. He plays poker every weekend in the Eye of Terror with them and while they all suspect Tzeentch cheats, they only play for beer and planets so no matter. Its at these poker games that they debate just how silly their followers really are and about sending Abbadon on another silly Black Crusade, aka beer run. They also probably laugh at inviting the C'Tans to the game and never telling them where it is.

On an unrelated side note, a while back I got to thinking about the lost Primarchs and thought that it would be really neat if the Emperor was in fact one of them. When the Primarchs were scattered he was sucked back to Anitolia in 8,000 BC and he hung out on Earth, waiting for the Emperor to show only to realize around M30 that no one was going to show. Fearing for his existance he decided to fill the role and create himself as well as his 19 brothers. After that he decided to wing it, returning to Earth after the Great Crusade to figure out what happened to the real Emperor (his great project).

Adra
04-09-2008, 22:37
The Emperor is like Castro. Hes been dying forever it seems.....yet it never seems to happen. Until one day it will and no one will belive it.

Although in the case of the Emperor I guess the hellstorm of chaos flooding into the earth would kinda hint something was up...

Goruax
04-09-2008, 23:35
Note about the Emperor's schizophrenia;
He is supposedly a gestalt entity created from a bunch of earlier shamans/psykers/wierdoswhokilled'emselves so MPD (Multiple Personality Disorder) wouldn't be much of a stretch.

It's more plausible that he has MPD (though he actually does have multiple personalities) rather than schizophrenia.[/psychology]

kdh88
05-09-2008, 03:23
Sure there's a possibility that the Emperor told the Custodes as quickly as he could that Vandire was to be eliminated. It just looks a bit odd that it would happen after 70 years, just as a massive galactic campaign to topple Vandire's regime is about to reach Terra and the Ecclesiarchy Palace is under siege by the Adeptus Astartes and Adeptus Mechanicus. But sure, possible. I don't think it's the most likely explanation.

I suppose you could argue that a massive battle on Terra itself was needed for the big E to sense what was going on, or that the psychic concentration of so many loyal subjects fighting there was what empowered him enough to communicate.

Although if that was the case, he couldn't have been the cause of the warp storms that destroyed Vandire's fleet, unless manipulating the warp is easier for him than acting in the materium. Which actually makes sense, given how difficult it is for other warp-based entities (e.g. daemons) to interact with the materium compared to the warp.

IMO, the biggest point in favor of the storm not being a coincidence is its size and longevity. It's pretty much second only to the Eye of Terror (and maybe the Maelstrom) in that regard; that kind of thing doesn't happen for no reason.


I'm not sure how well that theory would fit with Firaxin's claim that the Emperor destroyed the Cardinals who fled imminent death on Terra to gather support against Vandire, though. The Emperor immediately summons a warpstorm to destroy his loyal Cardinals, but it takes him 70 years to work out that Vandire is destroying the Imperium and communicate as much to his Custodes?

Could be the work of one of the chaos gods; they'd be more than happy if Vandire was stopped later rather than sooner.

DantesInferno
05-09-2008, 04:36
I suppose you could argue that a massive battle on Terra itself was needed for the big E to sense what was going on, or that the psychic concentration of so many loyal subjects fighting there was what empowered him enough to communicate.

Although if that was the case, he couldn't have been the cause of the warp storms that destroyed Vandire's fleet, unless manipulating the warp is easier for him than acting in the materium. Which actually makes sense, given how difficult it is for other warp-based entities (e.g. daemons) to interact with the materium compared to the warp.

You could try to explain it like that, but it just doesn't seem plausible to me. It's easier for the Emperor to conjure up a system-wide warpstorm that lasts for 5000 years than it is for him to psychically communicate with individuals in his throneroom? It just doesn't gel particularly well with the behaviour of other warp entities we've seen. This is of course assuming that the consciousness in the warp by M36 has any real relation to the individual who ruled humanity in the Great Crusade, which seems to me to be a massive assumption in the first place...


IMO, the biggest point in favor of the storm not being a coincidence is its size and longevity. It's pretty much second only to the Eye of Terror (and maybe the Maelstrom) in that regard; that kind of thing doesn't happen for no reason.

The Storm of the Emperor's Wrath is definitely smaller than the Maelstrom, and it hasn't been going nearly as long either. As far as I can tell, the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath only covers a single system and has been going since M36.

And as far as we know, the Maelstrom is just a naturally occurring warp/realspace overlap: there's no divine plan behind it. If the Maelstrom can last as long as it has at the size that it has, there's no reason that the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath can't.

Keep in mind that warpstorms are perfectly capable of being naturally occurring phenomena, and can often cut off whole systems for thousands of years. Other than the fact that it destroyed the fleet sent to kill Thor, there doesn't seem to be anything particularly remarkable about the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath.


Could be the work of one of the chaos gods; they'd be more than happy if Vandire was stopped later rather than sooner.

Sure, it could. I just don't see why there's such pressure to assign divine agency to events which are perfectly capable of being simply naturally occurring phenomena. Warp travel is always dangerous: just because these guys died in a way that had galatic repercussions, it doesn't mean that some divine agent did it.

Helsing
05-09-2008, 04:56
Truth be told, if you look close enough at both 40k and warhammer background, the Emperor is every messiah figure man has ever known, the last of the Old Ones, Sigmar, Thor even Jesus if the time line gets itself together.

A theory, no antagonization welcome.:chrome:


Helsing.

LexxBomb
05-09-2008, 07:21
dont forget he was either Hitler or Stalin too.. (due to both of them being heavily involved in changing the course of Histroy) {its just a theory no proof so please dont flame}

MvS
05-09-2008, 18:57
I don't think Hitler and Stalin apply. Apart from being alive at the same time, they were failures.

Their plans didn't work. Stalin died paranoid, a prisoner of his own power in the USSR, and Hitler was an unprecendented failure in terms of his plans for humanity and the outcome of the war.

The religious leaders can be seen as successes because, well, the messiahs/prophets/buddhas people followed what the messiahs/prophets/buddhas said and what they said was generally okay. They talked about personal change and purpose rather than conquest and war and it was the people who followed these religious figures a long time after their death who often turned them into monstrosities - hence the quote in RoC.

Anyway, the Emperor guided from the shadows, prompting, tweaking and advising. He didn't become The Emperor and conquer the world until very late in the game.

Neftus
06-09-2008, 16:34
You're all Heretics

Adra
06-09-2008, 17:45
You're all Heretics

So's your face.


Anyway...sure the Emperor is about, and hes got his plans, but hes probably an advisor to power, not the power itself. Small rocks can cause an avalanche.

The Anarchist
06-09-2008, 21:07
well I can't belive someone hasnt thrown it in already, so jsut for posteritys sake the Emperor is (drum roll please) ........CHUCK NORRIS!


onto more serious facts, we know that the Big Cheese was created from the souls of a collection of the greatest prmordial mans shamens; hence creating z pshychic unlike any other ever. we have no idea how many shamens it took, but it was a fair few, i mean hes like 100+ Alpha-Alpha level psychics.

as for the Vandredi events, my personal view is the Emperor did nothing. it was summed up to me once; what if the brides of the Emperor where brought before the Big Cheese and he did nothing...... jsut sat there. they then went and killed Vandredi because they relaised no else would, it was jsut their actions that could change something.

just my two cents.

FashaTheDog
06-09-2008, 23:07
Holy Crap, Batman! We as an internet forum should be ashamed for not having posted a Chuck Norris being the Emperor bit before now. Such a sad day for the internet to allow such an easy Chuck Norris "fact" to be nearly missed...

Dictator
07-09-2008, 00:42
The Emperor may be incapacitated, but he is not dead. He still works in the materium, just in very esoteric ways. Who could blame him, he is half-dead, he can do what he wants.
Also, the schizophrenia is just him being the gestalt form of thousands of psykers/shamans.
Lastly, anyone know if the eldar were involved in WWII? (weird Question, I know) I heard that somewhere...

Goruax
07-09-2008, 11:03
The Emperor can't be Chuck Norris - he got beaten by someone who wasn't Chuck Norris.
Unless Horus was the only thing that can incapacitate Chuck Norris...the Adama-stare!