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Malorian
02-09-2008, 17:05
The Idea:

This might be a bit early, but the list is made and the models are ordered so I think I can put this here as a place holder and in a couple of weeks when it comes in we can start with the actual battle reports.

What really led to this is me being tired of all the Orc and Goblin players complaining about how bad they have it. I tried to debate with them but since I haven't played the army other than my joke night goblin army (Go Stabby Stabby Clan!) I didn't really have a leg to stand on.

So here we are. I traded away my 40k nurgle and tau army and my orcs are in the mail.


The Fluff:

With a scream the large blackorc smashed the table in front of him. The camp went silent and all eyes fell on Morko Orco...

For the past few month many of the surrounding clans had sent over messangers to inform Morko of the changes that were going on. Apparently many of the orc clans had suffered severe losses and in an act of "If you can't beat them, join them" they had started giving up on their own identity.

First it was the Waaagher tribe which had decided to put white paint on their arms to look like skeletons, then there was the Moonbad clan that had started dressing in wild colors and telling everyone they were deamons, and now Morko had just heard that his closest allies, the Stabby Stabby Clan, were dressing in black leather, trying to learn how to ride cold ones, and huddling together to try and look like a hydra.

At first the idea of some boyz putting their shields together and pretending to be a steam tank was silly, but this was just... embarrassing...

With the table in front of him in splinters, Morko drew out his magical sword and faced his army, "Lis'n up! We iz dun sitt'n here un mak'n raids on da empire. Frum now on we iz go'n on da march un bash'n anywun we comes akross!"

What he had said was fairly unimportant. From those words the boyz were able to tell they were going to do some fighting and so that sealed the deal right there. With a loud "WAAAGH!" they made it clear that they were ready to follow Morko no matter where he went.

Preperations had to be made for the long journey. Weapons had to be made and sharpened, food had to be gathered, and more importantly, the boyz had to work out who got to be in the front ranks and thus get to the killing first...


The List:

I've worked with some people here on the forum and this is the list I'm going to start with. It might change as I go along, but for now I'll start with this as a 2000 point list:

Black orc warboss w/ Akk'rit Axe, the Kicking Boots, Best Boss 'At, heavy armor, shield, boar
Black orc bigboss BSB w/ spirit totem, heavy armor, boar
Lvl 1 night goblin w/ staff of sneaky stealing

25 boyz w/ shield, banner
25 boyz w/ shield, banner
25 boyz w/ shield, banner
25 boyz w/ shield, banner
5 wolf riders w/ bows, spears, musician
5 wolf riders w/ bows, spears, musician
5 spider riders w/ musician
27 night goblins w/ 2 fanatics, nets

Orc chariot
Orc chariot
2 spear chukkas
2 spear chukkas

Doom diver
Troll

Total: 2000


So as I said there probably won't be any battle reports for two or three weeks, but once the army comes in be ready for a ton of them as I plan to play them almost exclusively until I have at least 20 battle reports.

SevenSins
02-09-2008, 19:02
looking forward to it, Malorian. Have enjoyed your other reps.

Your list looks decent, quite a trim number

WhiteKnight
03-09-2008, 04:39
I would love to see all of those orcs smashing against the frontlines. Unfortunate that there are no black orcs there to wow us. Especially a big block of 30 (my personal preference) to absorb wounds and bash in CC.

Felworth
03-09-2008, 14:44
I would love to see all of those orcs smashing against the frontlines. Unfortunate that there are no black orcs there to wow us. Especially a big block of 30 (my personal preference) to absorb wounds and bash in CC.


Well, if he dropped three of his 25 strong units he could totally afford that single 30 strong Black Orc unit...

I would not advise that.


EDIT:

Anywho, nice list.

With a few small tweeks it looks identical to the one I've been using since the army book came out.

Gobbo Lord
03-09-2008, 14:47
Funny backstory, i'll give you that.

Solon
04-09-2008, 17:08
IMO, if you can consistently win with O&G you'll bury the dishonorable power-gaming criticisms levelled at your victories with Lahboura*.

Ironically, you're motives for collecting O&G further proves one of the points made in the "Why do Orcs Suck" thread, i.e. skilled players gravitate to weakass O&G to prove their mad game.



*IIRC you may have kicked some face in with OK, but you didn't Batrep it!

Malorian
04-09-2008, 17:17
Solon, I'd hate to call you a liar but:

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120657
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125402 (Two reports)
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132650
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130183
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144505

I'm fighting that thread. Too many orc player complaining that they lose because their army book sucks. I'm doing this to show that if you look at strengths of the list rather than the weaknesses then they are as good as any other army.

"dishonorable power-gaming criticisms"? :wtf:

Dexter099
04-09-2008, 23:56
Orcs suck? With 4 point WS4 T4 models?

LOL

eagletsi1
05-09-2008, 01:49
I'm in. Can't wait for the reports.

Embalmed
05-09-2008, 07:38
Great idea, I've waited for this type of thing, I never saw O&G as being all that underpowered, I hope you can prove they can be used for consistent wins.

Felworth
06-09-2008, 01:39
Orcs suck? With 4 point WS4 T4 models?

LOL

Heh, Orcs are neither 4pts or WS4. Thanks for playing though.


Looking forward to your reports Malorian.

EvC
06-09-2008, 13:12
Solon, I'd hate to call you a liar but:

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120657
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125402 (Two reports)
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132650
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130183
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144505

I'm fighting that thread. Too many orc player complaining that they lose because their army book sucks. I'm doing this to show that if you look at strengths of the list rather than the weaknesses then they are as good as any other army.

"dishonorable power-gaming criticisms"? :wtf:

Lol, funny that when you take Skrag and 8+ Gorgers, you win handily, but without them you seem to really struggle. I'm starting my own Ogres too, hopefully I can manage without resorting to special characters ;)

Looking forward to seeing how you do with what is unquestionably a balanced and fun army :)

Lord of Nonsensical Crap
06-09-2008, 17:57
I'm looking forward to these reports, Malorian. Some Orcy violence is always fun to read.

Malorian
06-09-2008, 18:26
Lol, funny that when you take Skrag and 8+ Gorgers, you win handily, but without them you seem to really struggle. I'm starting my own Ogres too, hopefully I can manage without resorting to special characters ;)

Don't think that just because you're across the ocean that I can't give you and glare full of daggers... ;)

My ogres do very well at 2000 thank you very much. I'm just obligated to make a battle report everytime I lose or else I look like I'm only posting when I win.

Dexter099
12-09-2008, 18:20
Heh, Orcs are neither 4pts or WS4. Thanks for playing though.


Looking forward to your reports Malorian.

I thought a regular Orc with a hand weapon was 4 pts.

When did they make Orcs not WS4?

Malorian
12-09-2008, 19:05
Dexter099, I think you are using an old rule book. Does yours look like this: http://ca.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.ca?do=Individual&code=60030209003&orignav=13

If it does, and yours makes regular orcs 4 points with WS4, I'll buy it off you : )

Gharof von Carstein
17-09-2008, 12:27
where the hell are your shamans?? i was under the impression that even orc armies used a minimum of 2 shamans with 3 not being a exception...

im really really looking forward to this as my best mate plays orcs. Black orcs to be exact but hes branching out. so who knows, i might spot the ocassional weakness in the buggers :)

too bad your not playing black orcs yourself. that grimgor ironhide is one tough SoB...

Urgat
17-09-2008, 19:37
Dexter099, I think you are using an old rule book.

Truly ancient, even :D. My 4th/5th ed book doesn't have 4pt orcs with WS4 either :p
If you want WS4 orcs, you're talking big'uns, and they cost 9pts w/o options, thankyouverymuch, Dexter099 ;)

Glorfindel
18-09-2008, 10:53
Let the orcs run rampart, kill any who resist, burn pillage, plunder, make a WAAAAAGGGHHH everyone will remember !

Chadjabdoul
18-09-2008, 11:02
Malorian,
Have you noticed that you are trying to prove O&G players wrong by taking ONLY units that all O&G players generally agree are the best in the list.
Its a good list and should win you some games, but it still proves nothing.

Malorian
18-09-2008, 12:18
Malorian,
Have you noticed that you are trying to prove O&G players wrong by taking ONLY units that all O&G players generally agree are the best in the list.
Its a good list and should win you some games, but it still proves nothing.

It doesn't matter what I take.

The nay-sayers I'm after are the ones that said that orcs suck and can't compete with other armies.Those people like Storak and Shimmergloom that believe that there is no such thing as a cheesy orc list because the list just plainly sucks.

I'm avoiding special characters to make sure they don't say "See you NEED special characters to make orcs win."


By the way, my orcs were suppose to come in this week, so it should be any day now.

EvC
18-09-2008, 12:27
You're too polite Malorian! The army you've selected does not in the slightest look like you've gone for only the most powerful stuff- you only have 3 characters, and a hundred Orcs on the table. It's a potentially strong army but not crazily do.

If the naysayers were really claiming that Orc Boyz, Night Goblins, Wolf Riders, Spider Riders and Orc Chariots were all such fantastic choices, then we wouldn't even be having this discussion!

Gharof von Carstein
18-09-2008, 14:02
I agree with EvC. you hardly see any O&G list without grimgor or skarsnik. another thing to prove the naysayers wrong is that malorian is not even touching the far stronger orc magic list. he is using almost no magic while orcs and goblins have very strong spells.

winning with this list vs armies that now are listed as the top armies like VC, daemons would be a accomplishment indeed.

Dexter099
18-09-2008, 14:19
Wait, so Orcs are WS3? :eek:

How much do they cost now?

Malorian
18-09-2008, 14:20
With a shield they are the same as an empire swordsmen (without they are the same as an empire spearmen).

zak
20-09-2008, 13:28
I've been playing since 3rd edition and I have never seen a standard Orc with WS4. It has been one of those things that has stayed constant like the standard human, elf and dwarf stat line.

Malorian
24-09-2008, 17:14
New army: $650

New case: $150

Making sure everyone still fears the Orcs: Priceless

http://i534.photobucket.com/albums/ee350/Malorian/EmpVsDwarfs09242008/EmpVsDwarfs09242008010.jpg


So I got them in and will be gluing like crazy on the weekend. The first game will be Oct 1st.

Valaraukar
24-09-2008, 17:38
Looking forward to it! That's a nice big pile of shineys :D

Warhammerrox
24-09-2008, 22:50
October 1st.... Excellent, been waiting for these bat reps for aaaaaaages!

:D

Glorfindel
25-09-2008, 11:36
Make it count! Good luck on your battle :)

Dexter099
01-10-2008, 02:42
Oh no! Orcs really ARE WS3!!!!!!

:cries:

luck, Malorian

VetSgtNamaan
01-10-2008, 02:58
Nice battle reports even if I prefer night goblins . :)

Unicorn
01-10-2008, 07:09
Yes! orks for the win, cant wait for the report(s)!

Ward.
01-10-2008, 09:06
I predict malorian will grow to hate the color green over the next few weeks, looking forward to the first days worth of reports.

fubukii
01-10-2008, 09:19
looks awesome good luck building them all :) , not sure what area you are from but if you in the pa area id play you with one of my several armies.

Malorian
01-10-2008, 12:15
It was tough, but I got it all glued together in time.

Now that I can setup and look at my battle line I'm impressed at how large the army is for just 2000.

Most likely I'll be up against DE or WE today, but there is a new deamon team so it might be ready as well.

And for those waiting for the battle report, it is 6AM here so my game i about 13 hours away, so within 18 hours the first battle report will be up and perhaps more depending if I get more than one game in.

EvC
01-10-2008, 13:05
Very eager to read it! Don't be disheartened if you do lose (badly), it is only your first game and the naysayers won't be laughing at your misfortune after just one game (or if they do, they'll be getting reported and their posts deleted :D ).

Harwammer
01-10-2008, 13:22
Malorian can you mix up some the models that ride the chariots with other orc boy models a little?

It always frustrates me when chariots have clone crewmen that could easily have been swapped for a different model!

I had to try to get this in before you made all the models :P

Malorian
01-10-2008, 13:54
Malorian can you mix up some the models that ride the chariots with other orc boy models a little?

It always frustrates me when chariots have clone crewmen that could easily have been swapped for a different model!

I had to try to get this in before you made all the models :P

Don't worry, I feel the same way : ) Although that one super long spear is just plain cool :evilgrin:

I was a little miffed that they don't give you enough shields for all the warriors and that in one of my army boxes I didn't get any shields at all... then my wolf rider box had an extra sprue with legs, and one less sprue with bodies... :rolleyes: So until I get to Edmonton this weekend I won't be able to pick up another box and will have to play with one good unit and one unit with only legs ridering the wolves...

Harwammer
01-10-2008, 14:01
Good to hear you also dislike attack of the clone chariots!

but doh! Having missing bits sucks! Have you tried calling where you got the stuff from? if you still got the spares/receipts you may be able to the missing/wrong stuff swapped out for the right bits :)

Or you could give one unit of boyz the goblin shields instead? you could paint them to look like woven bronze thread instead of wicker. I think I saw a dwarf army with goblin shields done this way and it looked suprisingly good!

I look forward to hearing your progress :)

IrishDelinquent
01-10-2008, 19:40
Malorian, Gork bless you. I'm glad someone is standing by da Orcs being a legitimate army. Can't wait to hear of da thrashings you dish out.

Peril
01-10-2008, 20:35
Well, I don't think the army is unusable, but it is definitely not up to par with other books. Against non fear-causing armies like Empire, you should fare reasonably well.

Play a good VC/Dwarf/Elf player though, and let me kow how it goes. I have read alot of your reports and you are definitely a good player, so I do not doubt you can make up for some of the army's deficiencies.

orkz222
01-10-2008, 22:59
NIce purchase there, cant wait for your battle report

Malorian
02-10-2008, 04:12
After three pages and more view than a lot of battel reports, finally it is time for...

Game 1: A Waaagh takes shape

Morko Orco and his band of orcs had been on the move only a few days before they came across a band of dark elve raiders.

"Purfekt" Morko thought, "Time to show wat us orcs can do." Then he turned to his number one man "Kaptin Krazyface, take four mobs and smash dem to bits!!!" The savage orc smiled, pulled out his choppas, and with a screem ran towards the dark elves. Several mobs around him joined in just for the fun of it. Krazyface wasn't the best leader, but he knew how to get the boyz rev'd up.


So I made a few minor changes (mainly the characters) so this was my list:

(Kaptin Krazyface)Savage orc warboss w/ extra choppa, iron gnashas
(Big Rokk)Black orc BSB w/ spirit totem, heavy armor, boar
(Smashy)Black orc bigboss w/ heavy armor, shield
(Welpsly)Night goblin shaman w/ staff of sneaky stealing

25 boyz w/ shields, banner
25 boyz w/ shields, banner
25 boyz w/ shields, banner
25 boyz w/ shields, banner
28 night goblins w/ 2 fanatics, nets, banner
5 wolf riders w/ bows, spears, musician
5 wolf riders w/ bows, spears, musician
5 spider riders w/ musician

Orc chariot
Orc chariot
2 spear chukkas
2 spear chukkas

Doom diver
Troll

2000 points exactly


My opponent was the local DE player although he had no idea what I was going to use other than that I had never used it before. He tried out something new and went with:

Lvl 4 supreme sorceress w/ black staff, power stone X2
Lvl 2 sorceress w/ sacrificial dagger, pearl of infinite bleakness
*I'm sure they had more(like scrolls) but it never came up*

20 spearman w/ full commamd
10 crossbowmen
10 crossbowmen
10 harpies
10 harpies

20 witch elves w/ full command
20 witch elves w/ full command
20 black guard w/ full command, Kouran, hag graef banner


The board was 6X4 and set up by a third party who made it perfectly symetrical. We each had a hill at the back of our deployment zones. On the left flank was a forest and then just to the right and left of center (about 18 inches apart) were two small forests. Then on the right flank was a hill.

I deployed the doom diver and 2 spear chukkas on the hill. In front of them were the night goblins w/ BSB. On either side of them was a block of orcs (general in the left unit, other hero in the right unit). On either side of them was a chariot (partially behind those two woods either side of center). A had to place the troll to the left of the left chariot and then there was another block of orcs on either side. The spider riders were behind the woods on the left, and the wolf riders were on either flank as were the spear chukkas.

*As a note, I had planned to have the troll in front of the night goblins, but I forgot to leave room for the troll when I placed them.*

He deployed the crossbowmen on the hill (lord in right unit). To the right of the hill were the two witch elve units, and on the left were black guard and further out the spearmen (w/ mage). Then a unit of furries were on either flank.

He won the roll for first turn but gave it to me.


Pre-game thoughts: I was glad to see no assassins or bolt throwers, but he had a lot of killing power in those units and could easily tear me up in combat if I wasn't careful. I planned to basically move everything up and counter with the chariots when the time came. It really sucked that I already pulled a brain fart with the troll, but I'd have to live with it. I knew those furries would be coming straight for my warmachines, but there was little I could do but stall them.

*Sorry no pictures. Actually this is the player that didn't allow me to make battle reports unless my army was painted, so I was lucky I could convince him to let me write this up.*

Turn 1 Orcs:

Animosity makes the night goblins run up 1 inch and Smashy's unit squabble (I forgot he could quell it). Troll gets a 10 and fails stupidity and moves up 3 inches. All units that can move up do. Smashy's unit staying back allow the chariots to have room in the center. Spiders run into the trees. Wolves move a bit up. I'll leave out my magic phases are they were basically pointless. In the shooting phase the wolves shoot at the furries to no effect. I then realize I can't shoot my doom diver since I had to do it first (doh!). One bolt thrower hits the black guard and kills 3 and another hits the witch elves on the far right and kills 3.

Turn 1 DE:

Each unit of furries charge the wolves who flee and get away. Black guard and left witch elve wheel to be facing more to center. I shut down the magic phase, and in the shooting phase I only lose six night goblins.

Turn 2 Orcs:

Animosity makes the generals unit move up 2 inches. The troll passes stupidity and he turns around to face my own hill to counter the furries. Wolves both rally and they move to block LOS to the spear chukkas in the corners. The night goblins move up releasing the fanatics into the left witch elves killing 7. The generals move up to face the black guard and the chariots get into countering position. Smashy's nuit follows behind the night goblins. Both blocks of orcs on the flanks are march blocked so they just edge forward. Spider riders move to the flank of the spearmen. In the shooting phase the doom diver scatter 10 away from the furries. Spear chukka kill 3 spearmen and three more black guard.

Turn 2 DE:

Blackguard charge Krazyface's unit, and witch elves charge night goblin unit. Furies both try to charge spear chukkas on the hill. The left one is obviously out but still move to the edge of the hill, the crew flee from the right one and get away. Right crossbowmen wheel to see fanatics. In the magic phase the a fanatic is blasted with chill wind and black horror kills 7 boyz from the left unit. In the shooting phase the other fanatic is killed and lose 1 boy from Smashy's unit. In combat I net the witch elves and this means he only kills 3 after I do really well on my saves. In return I only kill 2 of them but I win combat and they hold. In the other combat Kouran challenges my warboss and almost kills him after doing two wounds and I get 5 CR frmo killing him. His guard kill four boyz but I still win combat and they hold.

Turn 3 Orcs:

Animosity does nothing. The troll, who is perfectly setup to charge the left furries, fails stupidity with a 5 and just moves up a bit. Spear chukka crew flee off the board. Chariots counter charge. Wolves turn to face the furries. Left orcs try to fit between the two forests but find there isn't quite enough room and grind to a halt. Spider riders (who forgot to charge) stay where they are. In the shooting phase the doom diver hits the right furries and kills 1 (damn...) and the wold riders kill one of the left furies. Spear chukkas kill 3 spearmen. In combat I net the witch elves again and then the chariot kills 6 of them and the the unit kills a couple more. They flee and I run them down. the other chariot also wipes out the front rank and the last three models flee and are run down as well (failed even with stubborn). The general's unit overruns into the left crossbowmen.

Turn 3 DE:

Left furries charge into the rear of the left orc unit. Right furries charge the doom diver. Spearmen turn to face spiders. Right witch elves turn and move to support the failing center. Lord leaves the unit and manages to get to the flank of the night goblins. In the magic phase four spider riders are killed and the last one runs off the board. Night goblins are hit with black horror and a massive 18 are killed. Chill wind also takes 2 wounds off the right chariot and the crossbowmen take another wound off in the shooting phase. (We had rolled it as if it had T4. I never though a chariot would be T5!) In combat the furries kill 2 orcs but still lose combat after I kill 1 and I hold while they flee. The other furries wipe out the doom diver and over run into the spear chukka. Crossbowmen are badly beaten and they flee and are caught.

Turn 4 Orcs:

I declare a Waaagh hoping that the right orcs move up enuogh to catch the witch elves flank. Instead they roll a 1 (killing 3), night goblins roll a 1 and the BSB wiped them out(!!!) and the general (with no enemy in view) run off the board. Troll fails stupidity and moves closer to the board edge. Right wolf widers charge the furieson the hill. BSB and chariot chareg the crossbowmen who flee. They are caught by the chariot with goes off the board while the BSB fails and is in front of the witch elves. Smashy's unit moves up to face witch elves threatening the BSB and left out of orcs keep moving through the woods. Left wolvesmove to catch the left furries if they fail to rally. Left chariot turns to face spearmen. I don't hit anything in the shooting phase. In the combat phase the wolf riders kill 5 harpies while they kill the spear chukka crew. The furries flee and I run them down hitting into the troll.

Turn 4 DE:

Knowing that if they charge the BSB he'll just flee, the witches charge Smashy's unit while the mage runs into the right forest. Furries fail to rally and run into the wolves. Spearmen turn to face chariot. In the magic phase the right unit is hit by black horror and I lose 13 orcs. Chill wind does a wound to the T5 chariot. In combat Smashy challenges the hag and we each do a wound to each other (her dying). The witches kill 4 orks and I lose combat but hold.

Turn 5 Orcs:

Animosity does nothing. Troll fails agin and runs off the board. Chariot charges the spearmen (there are 11 now). General and chariot come back on the board. BSB joins generals unit. Left unit keeps moving through the forrest (pretty much through now). Wolves move to either of my quarters. Spear chukkas have no targets. In the combat phase the chariot kills 3 spearmen, loses combat due to the musician but holds thanks to the general. Witch elves kill Smashy (three poisons!!) and 3 orcs. I fail and break and I'm run down.

Turn 5 DE:

Magic is pretty much shut down. In combat chariot loses combat by 1 again but holds.

Turn 6 Orcs:

Animosity makes the left orcs run up 4 inches allowing them to charge the spearmen.

Knowing this is the end the DE player gives up.

Victory to the Orcs! (1-0)


Morko Orco looked on as the final bits of the dark elves where wiped out.

"Dats wut Im talkin about! No one stands up to da orcs!!!"

However, unknown to Morko, up in the hills someone had been watching the battle. Once an orc, he was now corrupted by chaos, and Great Shaman Storak wanted nothing more than to see all orcs destroyed. He saw all orcs as weak and an unworthy threat to the real power which was chaos.

Morko had won the day, but Storak had plans for his downfall...


Post-game thoughts: Well it really showed that I'm not totally familiar with the army with the several mistakes I made, but in the end the main plan held together and once those chariots hit I wiped out his center. The dark horror sure killed it's fair share... would have been nice to have a scroll or two, but then again when he got it it was usually with irresitable force. The troll was a big let down, as was the doom diver, but I think once I start using them right they will pay off. I'm thinking of dropping the troll for a pump wagon to guard my warmachines, but we'll see.

Hopefully I can get another battle in soon. I might use them this weekend, but if not I'll be playing empire on tuesday.

Thanks for reading.

Darkspear
02-10-2008, 06:49
Very good. Malorian. I support you. I too have been trying to convince others in my group that OnG works, however being a non-greenskin player...I can only clock a few games as I need to borrow my pal's army to play.

Claim your 20 games and prove it!!!

LION
02-10-2008, 07:28
:cool:Enjoyed the report Malorian,,,,,,Please put Captain Crazy Face in a Unit of Savage Orcs and point/push them towards trouble IT WILL BE FUN

LION

warlord hack'a
02-10-2008, 07:31
nice report and indeed trolls only work within the generals LD bubble: if you forget to field them in front of a unit then field them still close to this unit, e.g. behind it: as long as they have the general's ld they will work most of the time and their 12" march and free turns means they can easily move around your infantry block on turn 1 and still get roughly to the posision you had planned for them on the first place.

One thing I did not quite get was why you allowed his furies to charge your wolves: the furies only have 2"more chargeraneg, you might have been able to hold them off by just keeping your wolves a few inches in front of the warmachines: if he wants to charge the warmachines he gets into the 18"chargerange of the wolvies, if he wants to charge the wolves they can flee and then the furies will move 20 inch forward in perfect position for a countercharge by your night gobbo unit. This means that turn 1 the furies will have to move into chargerange, turn 2 they chrage the wolves, turn 3 they flee the countercharge and if not caught then turn 4 they rally and only on turn 5 they can charge a warmachine. Downside: your wolves are closer to your table edge AND might flee through the warmachine crew (getting a bully might help you there).

Looking forward to your 2nd battle rep!

grumbaki
02-10-2008, 07:32
Nice BR. I'm glad you got the win on the first one. Let's see what the greenskins can do!

Asfaloth
02-10-2008, 08:26
Certainly a unusual Dark Elf army. I was surprised to see no CoB with so many witches around. No Hydra and no RBT was also a surprise.

So it came down to infantry tactics which sadly only come seldom into use nowadays. The downfall of the DE was, that he had nothing to counter the chariots. Anyway as usually a well down batrep.

And please: stop calling the poor poor harpies furies :cries: ;)

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
02-10-2008, 08:30
Excellent work, Malorian. I was jealous to see your huge pile of unopened Orcs and Goblins goodies... *drool* ... I'm also a big fan of the Waaagh!, even more so now that I have Mark of Chaos: Battle March and can see the big green roaring across the field of battle and smashing the competition. It's much more vivid than my plastic figures.

I think your list is pretty good so far. I'm impressed with your results with the two chariots, I'm thinking of picking up another to add to my own list. I would definitely get rid of the troll. I've never used one mostly because of the Stupidity thing. I normally roll with a giant, but he might be a bit out of your price range. Even against my gunline Dwarf friend and despite the nay-sayers on these forums, he always makes it to the lines and then he makes a great impression.

I also would possibly direct you away from the Savage Orc Warboss and towards a Black Orc. I feel they can dish out way more hurt, and take more punishment than the "naked orcs." You might want to use either some wolf or spider riders to protect your warmachines. I know spear chukkas are cheap, but so are our fast cavalry, and holding up those flying menaces may have given you a bit more chukka time.

Anyway, glad to see another joining the Waaagh!, especially someone who has a winning, positive mindset. I've always thought you can beat any other army with good composition, good generalship, and a bit of luck. You've got the first two, so I'll just wish you the last. I'll definitely be watching!

WAAAGH!!

Fredmans
02-10-2008, 09:55
Congratulations, warboss Malorian. Chariots are priceless against elves, and you used them well. I am a great fan of the single troll, but not as a war machine protector. As someone else said, there are other units that fill this purpose better. Against elves, fast cavalry is a good choice, since they will fear most units anyway. The single troll is a flank protector, potential re-director and maybe some extra punch when you get off a charge. Say that you roll a 1 for animosity with the infantry block next to your warboss' unit. A single troll between them makes it possible to keep marching with your warboss. The troll can suck up a potential flank charge and re-direct it, and you do not have to worry about exposing your flank. Sure, there is still Stupidity to worry about, but the odds are roughly 1 in 6 that it will fail (about the same as animosity), and furthermore, since it causes fear, your opponent will have to factor in the potentially failed fear test as well.

I have no good experiences from doom divers myself, but I think it is because I need target practice. Those D3" are quite worthless, when you are a bad range guesser. I still believe they are a good weapon against knights and skirmishers, and will continue to field them. Facing the army you did (no knights, no skirmishers), they will struggle to make their points back.

The army you faced seemed quite unorthodox, and I think it would have fared better with shades (messing up your battle line) and repeater bolt throwers (anti-chariot). Now, it came down to close combat where your opponent lacked support, whereas you did not.

Keep fighting, and keep winning,

/Warboss Fredmans

Malorian
02-10-2008, 12:16
The troll was a case of bad deployment. When I forgot to put it in front I had to put it to the side. When I failed my stupidity the first turn (even though he was in range of the general) his roll chanced and my gamble didn't pay off. I'll give him another try against the empire and if he doesn't work out I'll be picking up a pump wagon.

The wolf riders... well like you said I just used them wrong. Just standing and keeping the HARPIES (see Asfaloth, I can do it right if I try) at bay.

What do you guys think about having Storak as the antagonist in this story? Funny? Or low blow?

warlord hack'a
02-10-2008, 13:31
well I think it is funny, can't speak for Storak though... ;-).

EvC
02-10-2008, 13:36
Great report! Nice of your opponent to ease you into the game with such an, ahem, interesting army. You played to the strengths well, your fast cav consistently fighting and beating the only thing in the army they didn't fear (Harpies) was very well done. It's always interesting seeing the effect of psychology on Orcs- did you fail any of the many Ld8 panic tests you would have had to take?

Malorian
02-10-2008, 13:56
Thanks to my general they were usually Ld9 tests, but no, I didn't fail a single test until that last break test against the witches... plus my REALLY stupid troll...

Glorfindel
02-10-2008, 14:18
Congratulation with your win. The dark elf army build certainly was strange, units of 20 witch elves look like point sinks to me :) + all infantry means you lose your movement superiority against chariots and wolf riders etc, which is not good for an elven player. Still I respect his choice for trying something new!

EvC
02-10-2008, 14:26
Ah yes, Ld9 on your Warboss, that's pretty good. Keep the beatings coming! :D

Feefait
02-10-2008, 14:32
Nice victory. DOn't give up too early on the DD. We find it effective a lot of the time around here. especially with one fo our Orc players who is just spot on with his guesses. Remember you missed a turn of shooting with it when it would have been most helpful. I probably would have given you the shot as it didn't seem the shooting from the wolves would have made a difference on your guess.
I like the straightforward approach you use with them. Lots of boys and some heavy hitters. SHame on the troll, but when you have that many units one not doing anything can be okay. You lucked out, other then the one turn, with animosity. That must have been fun to see the black orc killing the NG's.
My only caveat would be personally I hate the boss on a boar in a unit. One of our orc players has started using that in our games and you should have seen me flip when he first tried it. Now he does it for everything, orcs, vc's, and probably de's if we ever get a game with them in. Tactically sound, but just doesn't sit right with me Maybe because we've never done that before and I;m just not used to it.
Very nice game though. Wish I had as much time to game as you do! lol I am lucky to get a game a month.

Harwammer
02-10-2008, 15:46
I was gonna come here to throw a tantrum at lack of battle reports, but there was one here so have a big, toothy orcy smile :D

congrats on the win, you know if you compulsory movement into the edge of the board, you don't leave the table? it just counts as impassable terrain. The exceptions to this are pursuing, in which case you can place the unit where it left and walk back on your next turn. A further exception is fanatics hitting the board edge, as it counts as terrain. Obviously fleeing off the table is the other exception (though it needn't be an exception as the unit technically has fled into impassable terrain so would be destroyed anyway).

EvC
02-10-2008, 17:03
That's true, although commonly forgotten. Gav Thorpe himself mentioned that units can "charge off the table" in a recent White Dwarf article, which he should probably know given he wrote the rules saying that units can only leave the table from pursuit :D

Peril
02-10-2008, 20:22
Next time please have your opponent also about face his units. If he is going to tank, he should go all the way. You should count this as a practice game rather than a win.

Pump wagons are total win. You should definitely try one rather than the lone troll. I use them instead of normal chariots to free up my Special slots.

123DeMaere
03-10-2008, 03:23
Next time please have your opponent also about face his units. If he is going to tank, he should go all the way. You should count this as a practice game rather than a win.


We have had this conversation. Malorian counts every game... games where people came with wrong points, did something completely wrong, or came with a stupid list. Personally I think "this" game should count. He was battling someone who is pretty good and was just testing a extreme army.

As for the idea of "practice" or "Testing" games, Malorian doesn't believe in them. In fact if you think a game doesn't really count unless it is painted, based and judged/played right; Then he has only had about 10 games( in his whole life)... The other 2000 would be "pre-season".

His next game should be against me on Tuesday (unless he gets some games this weekend). I'm predicting a massacre, whoever rolls the most ones' will just get steam-rolled. The other just gets to sit there and watch his enemy kill himself.

Shimmergloom
03-10-2008, 04:35
The list was a legal list so the game should count. The guy just had a really weak list and no real concept of how to play to the strengths of dark elves, beyond magic. He had no fast cav. No hydra, no rbt's, no terror causers at all. The guy was probably just playing a list he liked, which is fine, but that's not the cause of complaints on this forum.

Which is the constant problem with this site. People who play opponents who just show up and aren't playing tough lists, which makes them think that warhammer is fine and dandy.

Sure if that list was the epitomy of the power of the newer army books then there would be no problem. But it is not.

If the purpose of starting greenskins is to show they are A-OK, then you're going to need to play games against opponents using lists that are the bane of warhammer at the moment. And then you will discover what everyone else is complaining about. I play most of my games against people who are still using the weaker 6th editiion lists like beasts and ogres. So I win more than I lose. That doesn't mean greenskins are ok. It just means they are ok against weak armies and players who use weak lists. Which everyone already knew.

Lord of Nonsensical Crap
03-10-2008, 05:16
WAAAAAAAAAGH!

Well done on smashing those evil Elves, Malorian. I'm looking forward to seeing who's next on your "to smash" list.

Malorian
03-10-2008, 05:18
First of all, the games I count are ones which are:
-one on one
-the same points (no 2000 vs 4000)
-and fair rules (nothing crazy like my general starts dead or something dumb)

So far the only game I haven't counted was aganst the pirate vampires because the list is just a white dwarf list and the player did them for fun.


I'd like out the reason why some people think orcs suck: if they lose against lists which are "the bane of warhammer" then they can't compete, but if they win against other armies (regular armies) then "It just means they are ok against weak armies and players who use weak lists". Do you see what I mean? According to them, if you can't consistantly beat the absolutely nastiest armies out there then you suck.

I will play against all kinds of armies and all kinds of players. Some will be newer players with 'interesting armies' some will be top tier players with nasty armies, but most will be your average player will an average competitive list. I aim for at least a 75% win rate and I will be counting every game that covers the critera I set above.

Kahadras
03-10-2008, 11:07
I'd like out the reason why some people think orcs suck: if they lose against lists which are "the bane of warhammer" then they can't compete, but if they win against other armies (regular armies) then "It just means they are ok against weak armies and players who use weak lists". Do you see what I mean? According to them, if you can't consistantly beat the absolutely nastiest armies out there then you suck.


I agree. Looking at recent tournament results there are only two good armies in Warhammer at the moment. Vampire Counts and Demons. Everything else is just OK against weak armies. Once you actualy start boiling things down in fact there are no good armies books and only a handful of good lists.

Kahadras

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
03-10-2008, 13:42
The list was a legal list so the game should count. The guy just had a really weak list and no real concept of how to play to the strengths of dark elves, beyond magic. He had no fast cav. No hydra, no rbt's, no terror causers at all. The guy was probably just playing a list he liked, which is fine, but that's not the cause of complaints on this forum.

Which is the constant problem with this site. People who play opponents who just show up and aren't playing tough lists, which makes them think that warhammer is fine and dandy.

Sure if that list was the epitomy of the power of the newer army books then there would be no problem. But it is not.

If the purpose of starting greenskins is to show they are A-OK, then you're going to need to play games against opponents using lists that are the bane of warhammer at the moment. And then you will discover what everyone else is complaining about. I play most of my games against people who are still using the weaker 6th editiion lists like beasts and ogres. So I win more than I lose. That doesn't mean greenskins are ok. It just means they are ok against weak armies and players who use weak lists. Which everyone already knew.

It seems pretty certain that you've already decided that they are terrible, and it doesn't look like anything is going to convince you. I'm glad that the Orcs can't be abused like other army lists, and I don't count that as a negative.

Peril
03-10-2008, 14:33
I was being fececious =p The guy just took a DE list that played away from its own strengths and directly to the Orc's strength.

Malorian
03-10-2008, 14:55
Other than the chariots working perfectly I can't see how getting blasted by black horror and getting charged by frenzied witch elves and ASF blackguard was one of my strengths...

Glorfindel
03-10-2008, 15:55
The netting of those witch elves pretty much saved you I think, that together with your chariots.

Harwammer
03-10-2008, 16:10
Reasons why O&G win doesn't count:

The darkelf was a newb,
Malorian only took good units,
Dark elves don't count as a good army,
It was a practice game.


... erm please? these are just excuses, O&G won a legitimate game. A win is a win is a win.

Grats once more Malorian :)

Peril
03-10-2008, 17:11
The win was fine (again I was joking about the DE player tanking). What I meant was that the Dark Elf took mostly big blocks of infantry and absurdly large units of harpies. No fast cav, no flankers, terror causers .. etc. It was by no means an automatic win or anything, but that is a good matchup for O&G.

Getting the netters on the WE was very good. I think I have underestimated the nets. I immediately removed them from my mind when I saw how expensive they were (along with the Gobbo price increase), but every time I read about them they seem to be pretty good.

EvC
03-10-2008, 17:26
Well, him charging you with his ASF Black Guard was a bit silly, when he could have stayed back and magic/shot that unit for a turn before engaging it (knowing that you would have had to charge due to the Savage Orc Warboss). That way he wouldn't have had to take a chariot to the face with his Black Guard (As according to the report, the BG barely moved forwards on turn 1, so therefore they would not have been in charge range of the Orc chariot that did them in if they had just stayed back and sai "you come to me!"). Tactics, hindsight, etc :)

Malorian
10-10-2008, 03:52
Game 2: Send in the Stank!!!

The arch lector moved slowly through the forest, looking back and forth as he went.

"Friar DeMoere, good of you to finally come..." ten yards in front of him a cloaked figure moved out from behind a tree. "I everything in place?"

"Just as you asked for. The steam tank, the knights, the mage, and of course I came as well."

"WITH the war altar?"

"As I said, just as you asked for."

"Did you drop the halbredier for spearmen?"

Anger flashed across the face of the Friar, "Listen here, that wasn't part of the deal. It's still my army and I run it the way I like. Now where's my money?"

Great Shaman Storak reached into his cloak and toss it to the ground, "Morko should be arriving in an hour. Make sure your men are ready..."

With that the orc Shaman puffed into a green smoke and disappeared, leaving DeMoere to collect his money.


My army:

(Kaptin Krazyface)Savage orc warboss w/ extra choppa, iron gnashas
(Big Rokk)Black orc BSB w/ spirit totem, heavy armor, boar
(Smashy)Black orc bigboss w/ heavy armor, shield
(Welpsly)Night goblin shaman w/ staff of sneaky stealing

25 boyz w/ shields, banner
25 boyz w/ shields, banner
25 boyz w/ shields, banner
25 boyz w/ shields, banner
28 night goblins w/ 2 fanatics, nets, banner
5 wolf riders w/ bows, spears, musician
5 wolf riders w/ bows, spears, musician
5 spider riders w/ musician

Orc chariot
Orc chariot
2 spear chukkas
2 spear chukkas

Doom diver
Troll

2000 points exactly


His army:

Arch lector w/ war altar, dawn armor, shield, sword of sigismund, van horstmann's speculum
Priest w/ barded horse, heavy armor, great weapon, ring of volans
Priest w/ heavy armor, great weapon
Lvl 2 mage w/ dispel scroll, luck stone *fire*

25 halbrediers w/ FC
Detachment of 5 crossbowmen
25 halbrediers
10 inner circle knights w/ FC
10 huntsmen w/ marksmen

Great cannon

Helstorm rocket battery
Steam tank


The board was 6X4. He had a hill on either side of his deployment zone and there was a wood on either flank.

On the left hill he had the rocket battery, then in front of it he had a nuit of halbreds w/ priest. Then from left to right he had: stank, knights w/ priest, war alter, halbreds w/ mage and the detachment was on the right hill with the cannon.

I deployed from left to right: Orcs, chariot, orcs w/ Smashy, night goblins w/ Big Rokk and Welpsly (and troll in front), orcs w/ Crazyface, chariot, orcs. Then on the left flank I had a unit of wolf riders and on the right flank I had the other unit of wolf riders and the spider riders. Three spear chukkas were spaced out on my left flank, the other on the right, and the doom diver was in the center.

He deployed his huntsmen in the left trees.

I won roll for first turn.

Pre-game thoughts: Here we go. I'm against the steam tank and the war altar setup for the first time with stat switching. Other than the halbreds there isn't much you could say negatively against his list, so it will be a good test of the orcs. My plan is to hit the stank with the spear chukkas, take out the warmachines with the wolves, and then redirect the waraltar with the spider riders and then tarpit him with a unit. The bulk of my force should have no problem with the rest of his army.


Turn 1 Orcs:

The left orcs bicker, but the two right units and the spider riders each move up 2 inches. Troll passes stupidity. The wolf riders each moved up as fast as they could up the flanks (the huntsmen could now see the wolf riders, but I felt safe I could take a few arrows) and the spider riders jumped to the other side of the trees. the rest of the line move up slightly and I left a gap for the doom diver to see the knights. Magic is pointless. In the shooting phase the doom diver misfires and I can't use it this turn or next. Spear chukkas take of 3 wounds from the stank. Arrows do nothing.

Turn 1 Empire:

Stank generates 3 steam points and moves up 9 inches. Huntsmen charge the flank of the left wolf riders (didn't see that coming...). Waralter moves up and across to the right. Blocks move up and knights move up with the stank. In the magic phase his priests become unbreakable and the arch lector can reroll stuff in combat. In the shooting phase the rocket battery kills 7 night goblins and three orcs from Crazyface's unit. The cannon misfires and can't shoot. The crossbowmen kill 2 spider riders and they pass their panic. In combat he kills a wolf and I run off the board while he holds.

Turn 2 Orcs:

Wolf riders bicker (damn). Spider riders charge the cannon crew. My troll passes stupidity and runs in front of the knights. The night goblins follow behind and release the fanatics but they don't make it to the knights. The left side moves up as fast as it can, and the right side holds back a bit to stay out of charge range of the waralter. In the shooting phase I do nothing to the stank (oh oh...), but in combat I wipe out the cannon crew and overrun over the hill.

Turn 2 Empire:

Stank generates 3 steam points and charges the night goblins, but I flee and get away (running over Crazyface's unit but I pass panic). The knights charge the troll and in doing so land on a fanatic and lose four knights (go crazy thing!). Huntsmen move out of the woods on his side. Crossbowmen turn to face wolfs. Right block turns to phase them too. War altar moves a bit up and makes sure the wolves and the right orcs are within 12 inches. In the magic phase the troll losses a wound to soulfire and the right unit of orcs is hit with wall of flame killing 4. In the shooting phase the rocket battery shoots at crazyface's unit and kills 6. Hunstmen shoot at chariot to no effect. In combat the troll losses a wound, runs, the knights are forced to pursue thanks to hatred (things I'm learning thanks to the new DE) and catch the troll and run over a fanatic and into the stank lossing another two knights.

Turn 3 Orcs:

Terror tests passed. Animosity makes my generals unit move up 2 inches to be right infront of the stank. Night goblins fail to rally, but only move 3 inches so they stay on the board. Fanatic runs through the knights and kills more so that now there is only the priest and one knight. Spider riders turn around and move to crossbowmen's flank. Wolf riders move infront of the waralter as to redirect to the right. Crazyface would have loved to charge the knights, but they couldn't wheel passed the stank so they just reform to phase the knights while keeping the stank on the front arc (This was where I made a mistake. Due to frenzy Crazyface should have charged the stank, but as we'll find out, in not doing so it hurt me more than it helped.) Left side moves up with Smashy's unit turning to phase the stank. The right unit of orcs moved to the side... and BANG! I had forgot they had wall of fire on them and so after he rolls amazingly well I'm left with only two orcs that pass their panic. Chariot turns so that it can hit the war altars flank if it goes after the wolves and overruns. In the shooting phase the doomdiver kills the last knight and does a wound to the priest. All the spear chukkas aim at the stank and do... 1 wound... (I sense pain coming...)

Turn 3 Empire:

Stank generates 3 steam points and smashes into the orc block making sure not to be in base to base with Crazyface. Crossbowmen turn to face spider riders. War altar just moves to the side of the wolf riders and aims at the two orcs. right block moves up and the left one moves back. The priest moves to the left of the stank (moving in on my warmahcines). Nothing really happens in the magic phase. In the shooting phase the rocket battery misfires and blows up. I combat the stank kills 8 orcs and the unit breaks and runs (surrounding units pass panic).

Turn 4 Orcs:

I want to call a waaagh but I can't. Smashy's unit tries to bicker but he quells them and kills nothing (one hit with a one to wound... hehe). Spider riders charge the crossbowmen and the wolves charge the war altar's flank. Fanatic doesn't hit anything. Both Crazyface and Big Rokk's units rally. Left flank moves up towards his left halbrediers. In the shooting phase the doomdiver scatters too far off and the spear chukkas bring the stank down to 1 wound. In combat the spider riders wiff their attacks, lose one of their own and run off the board. The arch lector strikes first and kills 1 wolve and then the wolves are able to do a wound to him. A horse kills another wolf and they break. Hatred forces him to pursue and I'm caught and he stops less than an inch from the woods (damn!).

Turn 4 Empire:

No steam points. Left block charges my left orcs. War altar turns to face me. Crossbowmen turn to face me. The priest decides to move to the right edge of Smashy's unit to make them go the wrong way if I waaagh. Right block is still moving forward slowly as to support the waraltar. Magic doesn't do much (the last two turns he tried to cast wall of fire again but both times was 1 short). Stank engineer shoots at fanatic but misses. Huntsmen shoot at chariot again to no effect. In combat he kills three orcs and I kill a since halbredier. I lose but hold.

Turn 5 Orcs:

Animosity does nothing. Left chariot charges his halbrediers. Crazyface charges out of the unit towards the mounted priest but he flees and gets away. Fanatic goes through the stank to no effect. The two orcs move back and the weakened right flank sets up to take the charge next turn. Smashy's unit moves more to the right to support and theaten his right unit (once the stank is out of the way). In the magic phase I dispell the unbreakable of his priest in the halbrediers. Shooting finishes off the Stank but the doom diver misfires and can't shoot. In combat I make short work of the halbrediers thanks to the chariot and they break and are run down.

Turn 5 Empire:

War altar charges the unit of 11 orcs on the right (I have to hold because if I flee he'll just hit the flank of the night goblins behind). Priest rallies. Magic phase is shut down. Crossbowmen kill the fanatic, huntsmen kill 1 orc from Smashy's unit. I combat the war altar kills 5 orcs but I hold thanks to the general.

Turn 6 Orcs:

Animosity does nothing. Smashy's unit charges the right halbrediers and they flee and get away. right chariot charges the war altar. Everything else just reforms to be in a better position (like not having my flank open to the war altar if things go badly). Crazyface runs around in a rage since he didn't get to kill anything this game. In the shooting phase the doom diver kills 4 huntsmen and they hold. In combat I can't do any damage to the waraltar and he kills 1 orc. I win combat but he doesn't care since he is unbreakable.

Turn 6 Empire:

Sealing his fate, the halbrediers fail to rally. We skip straight to the fight and again he only kills 1 orc and so it ends a stand still.

Victory for the Orcs! (2-0)


Seeing that things had fallen to pieces Friar DeMoere turned his chariot around and tried to speed away, but he wasn't fast enough, and Morko Orco led in the reserves to cut off his escape.

"You go'in sumwheres Ummie?" Morko made sure to beat his hand with his axe with each word.

"Hey, I don't want to be any part of this. I was just paid by some one to fight you guys."

"Wat?!? Sum one else payd you to fight da orcs? Hell, I wud have pyd you to do da same ting! Tells you wat, you tell me orcs is da best, an I'll let you go so you can tell da other hummies too."

"Wouldn't you rather know who paid me?"

"No.."

"Umm k... Orcs are the best..."

"DA best!"

"Alright fine! Orcs is da best! Now can I go?"

"One more ting... give us a Waaagh..."

"What? What the hell is this? This is retarded..."

Morko raised his magical axe and leaned forward, "You wanna lok like dat scrap heap there?" Pointing a finger at the spear covered steam tank.

"Fine!!... I can't believe I'm doing this... WAAAGH!!!"

A large smile came over all the orcs, "Das ma boy. Now go off and tell everyone dat da orcs is coming and they ain't plannin to play nice."

So with that the arch lector of the empire rode off and once again Great Shaman Storak looked on from the shadows in disgust.


Post-game thoughts: those fanatics sure made back their points. They pretty much took out the knights all by themselves. The fast cav didn't exactly work out the way I had planned (who ever heard of someone charging with huntsmen?) and the doom diver under performed, but over all it's hard to complain.

Thanks for reading and here's hoping I can keep this up : )

Krytha
10-10-2008, 05:49
Wow. Nice game. Congrats on your win.

blurred
10-10-2008, 08:19
Congrats on your win, although I must say the Empire army has a few strange choices (huntsmen with a marksman :wtf:) and you were extremely lucky with the fanatics.


Stank generates 3 steam points and charges the night goblins, but I flee and get away (running over Crazyface's unit but I pass panic).

Remember that orcs don't have to take panic checks caused by goblins. :)

silverstu
10-10-2008, 08:59
Good report- looks like you had a lot of fun- nice to see the empire smashed by the greenskins again!

Arnizipal
10-10-2008, 11:39
Good battle report. Some remarks though:


Stank generates 3 steam points and charges the night goblins, but I flee and get away (running over Crazyface's unit but I pass panic).

Orcs are immune to panic caused by Goblins (and Snotlings).



Stank generates 3 steam points and smashes into the orc block making sure not to be in base to base with Crazyface.
Remember that both the attacker and the defender have to bring as many models in combat as possible (sliding when necessary and if movement allows it).

Of course in this case it's entirelely possible the STank couldn't reach your warboss anyway.



Spider riders charge the crossbowmen and the wolves charge the war altars flank.
[snip]
The arch lector strikes first and kills 1 wolve and then the wolves are able to do a wound to him. A horse kills another wolf and they break.

Due to their harness, steeds pulling a chariot can only fight to their front.



In the shooting phase the doomdiver scatters too far off of the war altar

You can't shoot at the War Altar if it's in combat.



In combat the spider riders wiff their attacks, lose one of their own and run off the board.
Did you remember the spider attacks? And that their poisonous? Pretty awful rolls otherwise.
Then again, Forest Goblins are still Goblins so they probably fight like Goblins too. ;)

EvC
10-10-2008, 12:00
Nice one! Two games and you have yet to fail a psychology test (well, not a proper one and yes I'm keeping track :D ). Good game :)

Malorian
10-10-2008, 12:15
Blurred:
-I don't agree with taking the marksmen, but other wise that unit usually does fairly well for him. Between march-blocking, taking out warmachines, and finally holding or contesting a quarter that make their points back I'd say.
-Those fanatics did AMAZING : )

Arnizipal:
-Make to remember that size matter rule. Although I'm not sure about one thing. There was the black orc bloss in the night goblins so it wasn't a pure night goblin unit. Does that make a difference?
-Crazyface was on the edge so he could still engage the most number of models and avoid him.
-That's not in the new rules. Now the chariot is a single model.
-Hmmm I know I didn't shoot it when I was in combat... must have remembered my shooting order wrong. I'll change the report.
-Oh I remembered the spider attacks... I just rolled garbage...

EvC:
-Well with a Ld9 general you really don't fail that much (plus I do my best to reduce my tests like having larger units), but I'm sure it will happen soon enough ; )

Brother Drakist
10-10-2008, 12:37
Malorian, I must say that you roll extremely well. While reading the report I was waiting for the fanatics to hit your guys which normally happens to me. I was also looking for some more failed animosity rolls, as well as more misses with the Spear Chukkas. These things seem to be more rare for your O&G than mine. Congrats on the win, and what kind of dice do you use? I may need to buy some.

Arnizipal
10-10-2008, 13:16
Arnizipal:
-Make to remember that size matter rule. Although I'm not sure about one thing. There was the black orc bloss in the night goblins so it wasn't a pure
night goblin unit. Does that make a difference?

A single Black Orc does not have enough unit strenght to cause panic in anything, so I'm pretty sure it won't make a difference. I'll have a look at the rules once I get home from work.


-That's not in the new rules. Now the chariot is a single model.

Actually I'm pretty sure it still is. I looked it up during my last battle when I charged a War Altar in the flank with a block of Orc Boyz.

Gokamok
10-10-2008, 13:32
Congrats on the win!:)

Just to clarify, steeds can indeed only attack to the front, just checked the BRB. (Though I must admit that I had never noticed that rule ever before reading about it in this thread:D)

Arguleon-veq
10-10-2008, 14:06
Thankfully, or else Lion Chariots would be almost unstoppable. My Wolf Riders love nothing more than hitting Lion Chariot Flanks, if they can ever pass their fear tests.

Great BatReps Malarion. Bit a shame to see so many of the same units though, not tempted for some more fun units like Squigs? It takes away some competativeness from the Shield Orc Block, Bolt Thrower, Chariot armies but they are a lot of fun and aren't an appauling unit. Or maybe a Wolf Chariot in place of one of the Orc ones for a bit of variety.

With going for a hard Orc army though, I think you would be better served with making your Lord a Black Orc to further quell animosity.

I tried taking my Orcs and Gobs and proving they can win too, mostly facing High Elves and Vamp Counts [with some Dwarfs thrown in]. I finished 6-4, I was hoping for 7 wins. Lets hope you can do a little better and gain some honour for the Greenskins.

Malorian
10-10-2008, 14:17
Well this isn't suppose to be a 'fun army'. I have a seperate orc army 'The Stabby Stabby Clan' that is my fun army full with as many random things as I could put together ; )

The thing about the black orc warboss is that you pay a lot more for it. Compared to the jump in points for the bigbosses the warboss upgrade to black orc is a lot more and I can't see a good reason for it. So far I haven't had that big of a problem with animosity so it doesn't seem to be a big deal so I'm sticking with the cheaper savage orc warboss and so far I like the way he's turning out.

We've done some mock battles to test him against other characters, and even though he has zero armor, the T5 and 6+ ward (not much but it's something) allong with the 6 str 6 attacks with killing blow makes this guy a monster.

I would like to get more games against the "better" armies but I'm limited to the players I'm up against. Hopefully the deamon army a person is putting together up here will be finished soon.

Storak
10-10-2008, 15:32
I would like to get more games against the "better" armies but I'm limited to the players I'm up against. Hopefully the deamon army a person is putting together up here will be finished soon.

the main problem is not with the armies, it is with the players you are facing. both DE and empire will beat O&G easily. (look at some tournament results, for once!)

but you, a rookie with the orcs, beat both.

both those armies used very strange troops. both of them seem to be obsessed with shooting (or charging) your gobbos AFTER they released fanatics. none of them decided to pull your frenzy general. (btw, he would have don 1.5 wounds to the tank, but 3 points of grinding would have killed him...)

please tell the guys to bring useful armies and to concentrate a little. and i would like to read more details about animosity phases. (did i miss the "i was forced to move towards unit x" mesages?)

darkness has fallen over the gaming room. then a beam of moonlight reveals the remants of the battle, admidst empty packages of crisps, left for a morning clean up.

the model of great shaman Storak is standing on the edge of the battlefield, staring at a half empty glass, left by the empire player.

in the silvery light, strange white flocks are dancing in the remaining water.

"ah, those magik mushrooms did tha work again, on da hummie. he didan t know, what he was doing." a strange giggling noise, echos through the empty room

Peril
10-10-2008, 15:57
Good game. Storak, Malorian has consistantly shown to be a better player in general than most of his opponents, but you can't discount every win because he was better.

A couple points:

Goblins do not panic orcs ever.

When the Stank attacked the Kaptin's unit and "made sure not to be in base contact with him" I believe this was an error. A charging unit must maximise contact with you (in this case he must touch two orcs directly and have one on each corner). It is unlikely that he could do this and avoid the Kaptin as the Kaptin should have been in the middle of the front rank of his unit right?

Malorian
10-10-2008, 16:06
Nope... I had him on the edge in order to cover more units in my bubble on the left flank.

I also do this because of a modelling problem where his weapons don't allow him to line up right in the unit.

Kind of a phyiscal problem twisted into a tactical advantage... unless a stank hits me ; )

Arguleon-veq
10-10-2008, 16:08
Id day Magic Dark Elves and Stank Alter Empire are certainly tough tests, so those are some good wins so far. I think a big test will come against Fear causers though.

Peril
10-10-2008, 17:26
Mal, you should try playing against yourself (your OG vs. VC). It would be tough to "not know" what you were going to do, but it would be very interesting to me to see what would happen.

Malorian
10-10-2008, 17:28
Hmmm there's an interesting idea... Of course it's not exactly a fair game as you can't 'trick' yourself, but it would be interesting.

Storak
10-10-2008, 19:21
Good game. Storak, Malorian has consistantly shown to be a better player in general than most of his opponents

sorry, but this is the point, that is troubling me...


Id day Magic Dark Elves and Stank Alter Empire are certainly tough tests, so those are some good wins so far. I think a big test will come against Fear causers though.

let me use a phrase, that became quite famous lately:

You can put lipstick on a pig, but its still a pig

the war altar alone doesn t make a good army .


Mal, you should try playing against yourself (your OG vs. VC). It would be tough to "not know" what you were going to do, but it would be very interesting to me to see what would happen.

you didn t just really propose, that he could prove his thesis about the true value of the O&G army, by playing against himself?

in contrast to, let me see, looking at tournament results?

Malorian
10-10-2008, 19:31
Because Malorian is above tournament results. Malorian represents all that is good and true about warhammer and goes out to kick butt and take names while taking no heed of statistics.

That's why :D

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
10-10-2008, 20:04
Because Malorian is above tournament results. Malorian represents all that is good and true about warhammer and goes out to kick butt and take names while taking no heed of statistics.

That's why :D

Booyah-ka-booyahka!! Benjamin Disraeli once said, and it was popularised in the United States by Mark Twain: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." That's how my friend's Dwarf army consistently rolls 1's for everything except Leadership tests, and my other buddy will make miraculous snake eyes all the time.


With going for a hard Orc army though, I think you would be better served with making your Lord a Black Orc to further quell animosity.

I also said this, but if he's been doing well with the Savage Orc, stick with it. I may try one out myself.

warlord hack'a
10-10-2008, 22:44
so Storak, you are claiming that the opponents of MAlorian were crap, because he managed to beat them with orcs.. That's an insult both to Malorian, his opponents AND the orc army, wow, three in one go!

True, the empire army was not the best, but it had what a lot of people call tough stuff, the Stank and the waraltar..

If anything the fact that Malorian is a good general and is winning with orcs points me more towards my hypothesis I posted earlier: the fact that O&G are not doing well at tournaments is caused perhaps by the fact that O&G have been a starter army in 3 out of the 4 last warhammer releases so their players might be people that buy the starterbox and then play and go to a tourney. Nobody so far has proven that the army someone plays is not correlated to his experience. Till we know that just judging by the armyresults we can not blame the armybook as I think there might very well be a correlation between the army someone brings to the tournament and their experience as a general..

To Malorian: keep up the good work and a tip for next time: count the number of deployment choices of your opponent when you do your ' army presentation before the battle'. You could have deployed 2 chariots, your troll and your fast cav units and by that time he would have had to have deployed his whole army bar his huntsmen. That would leave you to put your orcs, fanatics and warnachines far, far away from his stank and knights, so he would have to plow through a lot of battlefield before getting to you.. With O&G deployment is crucial and you almost always outdeploy your opponent, giving you a significant edge in the battle to come

3Xhume
11-10-2008, 00:06
I have been following your OnG battles so far and i would like to share some of my thoughts.

First, both DE and Empire army selection list do not bring the army's greatest potential, while yours is definitely one of OnG best list. No hydra or boltthrowers meant that you will get your favored melee combat. His list is not even trying to push marchblocking, warmachine hunting potential to their best. So did the empire list. i loved the blocks, but no pistoliers? no fast cavalry? Maybe, he is trying to be nice and tone down empire potential, then trying to put an army that he loves. Infantries.

Second, I do not agree with storak. I found that both players are decent players. Their movement and target choice wasnt really that poor. Its just that their army selection lists are limiting them. Letting your warmachine running rampant throughout the game? And letting you find close combat that was OnG all about? None of your opponent has really exploit OnG weakest point, M4. Marchblocking, warmachine hunting, destroying support unit (wolf and spider riders), and engaging only the favored combat is the way to go with OnG.

Ok, i am convinced that you are a really good player. But to prove your point of OnG is not a subpar choice, please find a really good opponent and their good list. Tell them, do not pity the OnG. Bring out the greatest potential.

Feefait
11-10-2008, 03:57
While I kind of agree with te points being made, Malorian does deserve some credit. Sure he's bringing "the best" orcs can get, but is nt the point here to prove all the orc naysayers wrong when they say the orcs HAVE NO GOOD options. Maybe the opponents are seeing that it's orcs and saying "well gues si can try something different" thinking there will be no real challenge, but good for Malorian in proving them wrong.
1 question though... can you have a black orc in a unit of goblins? I thought they were above that sort of thing, riles wise.
and i thought characters had to be in the center. but i could be playing off old rules here. :)
I also agree, you need squigs. I just can't see an Orc army with no squigs anywhere!

Malorian
11-10-2008, 06:26
Only ogres, DE and brets have any rules that limit what units characters can join.

In th current rule book characters have to be in the front rank if possible.

warlord hack'a
11-10-2008, 12:48
3Xhume, please reread your last sentence again and think about what it means: you say: please have someone bring their powebuilt list to prove that O&G are a subpar choice.. What you then will prove is not that O&G are subpar, but that some armies out there can build very powerful lists, which I think is an error in their books, it is not proving the O&G book is nerfed..

and what are people talking about Malorian bringing the best the O&G force can get? All he brings are troops that are not overpriced (such as boar boyz) and he can not bring units that are underpriced (waraltar, hydra, those kind of things).

Arguleon-veq
11-10-2008, 13:14
Depends whats trying to be proved really.

Are we trying to prove that Orcs can compete with other standard lists or that Orcs can compete with Power Builds and the Power Armies?.

I think Malorians list is as finely tuned as you can get for an Orc list. Besides the Savage Orc Warboss :p. So it is in essence a Power Build for Orcs, that by no means makes it a power build in over all terms though.

If we are trying to see if Orcs can compete against other basic lists then a wider selection of Orc units should be taken. If Malorian is trying to prove that Orcs can take on the big buys, then he should be taking the list he is taken.

Even against basic armies I think making the Orc list as powerful as possible only really makes an even playing field. Because of that, even Malorian winning with this list shows his skills as a general which I think he is trying to show here with the amount of Beardy accusations unfairly levelled at him in his VC thread and people suggesting he only won because of his army. He is showing here that he can win when the playing field is level too.

Arnizipal
11-10-2008, 14:46
1 question though... can you have a black orc in a unit of goblins? I thought they were above that sort of thing, riles wise.

IIRC there was a rule like that in 5th edition. It's not been explicitly forbidden since 6th edition but I can imagine a Black Orc leading anything less than Big'Unz being quite a laughing stock among other Black orcs.

I think Malorians list is as finely tuned as you can get for an Orc list. Besides the Savage Orc Warboss :p. So it is in essence a Power Build for Orcs, that by no means makes it a power build in over all terms though.
It's not exactly finely tuned IMHO. It's just a massive horde, which means it can take large numbers of casualties and still be effective.

If it were more finely tuned it would have more heavy hitters like Black Orcs, Giants or even Big'Unz.

warlord hack'a
11-10-2008, 15:37
what is meant by finely tuned? His list is not an orc powerbuild list, though you have a point: orcs can not make powerbuild lists, not at least to the extent that some other armies can..

But I have heard 'people' say that goblins fast cav is the worst fast cav in the game (and they 'proved' their claim by comparing wolfriders to dark riders, one of the best fast cav units in the game pointswise), so Malorian having fast cav means he must be surely making a mistake? Also, night goblins have been named overpriced on numerous occasions..

The point si , the true blue naysayers claim that whatever orc list you field, you will lose, because the book sucks. Malorian and others have proven them wrong already and now they say: well only against proper (=maximized) enemy lists..

ANyway, Iw ill stop hijacking this thread and just enjoy a good long series of O&G battlereps..

Arguleon-veq
11-10-2008, 15:38
By finely tuned I mean effective. Black Orcs are not effective at all. Malorians list is as effective as you can get for an Orc list.

Harwammer
11-10-2008, 16:03
Finely tuned can mean thinking about how your different units are used in conjunction with each other, rather than simply taking a collection of units that when considered individually are powerful. This is because O&G can afford lots of units, so these must be used in a cohesive fashion. Simply trying to 'max out' each unit will never make orcs competative compared to other armies.


Think in sport where people might say 'they were a team greater than the sum of their parts', or when people say 'they were a group of individuals rather than a team'.

Shimmergloom
11-10-2008, 17:15
Because Malorian is above tournament results. Malorian represents all that is good and true about warhammer and goes out to kick butt and take names while taking no heed of statistics.

That's why :D

Like ever failing a panic test, fear test or being outside general's leadership range for your entire army on a 6x4 table.


please tell the guys to bring useful armies and to concentrate a little. and i would like to read more details about animosity phases. (did i miss the "i was forced to move towards unit x" mesages?)

I would settle for pictures just to see what's going on. From reading it appears the entire game just takes place in the center of the table so everyone can use his LD9 general's leadership and no one ever fails a panic test of any kind ever.

warlord hack'a
11-10-2008, 18:19
well perhaps if you look at Malorians list you can see why panic is not so widespread: first he has a ld9 general, that's not too bad. Second he has ld 7 orcs, not bad either. Some of these blocks are led by black orc bigbosses with Ld 8. So in general he does not have that bad a leadership. Granted, they are not LD 9 elves or Ld 10 dwarves or cold blooded or immune to panic, but they are 25 models per unit with T4 and a 4+ save..

And then the size matters rule kicks in, combined with the fact that chariots and a single troll can never cause panic in other units due to the fact that their US is too low this makes for quite a stable batle line.

All in all only his fast cav is liable to panic, but that is hardly news..

Shimmergloom
11-10-2008, 19:27
LD7 still takes breaks on LD6 or less.

even at LD7 or 8 he should fail more than 0% of the panic tests he's had in 2 complete games.

It's not that he has no widespread panic, it's that he has not failed a test in 2 games.

Storak
11-10-2008, 20:49
what is meant by finely tuned? His list is not an orc powerbuild list, though you have a point: orcs can not make powerbuild lists, not at least to the extent that some other armies can..

well, this is about as much "power build" as is possible with the O&G book. a wyvern general might be better (and possibly necessary in a tournament environment) and some other minor changes might be a matter of taste. (squigs?)

but basically any powerful orc build will look rather similar to this.

(btw, such a build will rarely include black orcs or big uns.)


But I have heard 'people' say that goblins fast cav is the worst fast cav in the game (and they 'proved' their claim by comparing wolfriders to dark riders, one of the best fast cav units in the game pointswise), so Malorian having fast cav means he must be surely making a mistake? Also, night goblins have been named overpriced on numerous occasions..

well, i haven t seen anyone calling them the "worst" fast cav (you didn t even make a difference between wolfs and spiders. do you really have a source, that claims that spiders are the worst fast cav in the game?!?). perhaps you can provide some links?

but it is obvious that the latest lists provide fast cav (or flyers) with a better value for their points.

against the armies that currently top rankings, spears have become worthless. against the fear causers (including elves) you struggle to get a charge in. that leaves empire, but the typical empire tournament army will deal immediately with the wolfs.

that things went different in this two reports should tell you a lot.


The point si , the true blue naysayers claim that whatever orc list you field, you will lose, because the book sucks. Malorian and others have proven them wrong already and now they say: well only against proper (=maximized) enemy lists..

again, i doubt that anybody made that claim. please feel free to provide sources.

the major point that was made on this forums, is about orc performance in tournaments. people expect proper list and similar skill level for such a comparison.

ps: i hadn t notice that the BSB was in the gobbos. this might explains some of the shooting/charging.

Kahadras
11-10-2008, 22:44
the major point that was made on this forums, is about orc performance in tournaments. people expect proper list and similar skill level for such a comparison.


IIRC the major point that was made on this forum is O&G are useless and nobody can win with them. Then the tournament results were presented to back up that claim. Peoples own experiences with the army were discounted as null and void because the O&G statisticaly have done poorly in the last couple of years of tournaments.

Surely the point that Malorian is making is that you can win regularly with Orcs and Goblins outside of a tournament environment. You don't need tournament style armies and players to achieve this.

Kahadras

3Xhume
12-10-2008, 00:20
@Warlord hack'a: i never have the intention to discredit Malorian's effort. And its too early to get into conclusion. Two battles is not convincing enough. Well, i never expecting powerbuild DE with flying monsters and two hydra, or Empire 2 great cannon, stank, waraltar or even karl franz on dragon. But i kinda expecting DE with 6 power level, spearelves block, double harpies unit, double dark rider unit, double boltthrowers, etc or empire with fast cavalry and pegasus captain. A nice and balanced list. btw, i have never thought that wolf riders is the worst fast cav. Man, M9 with spears @ 13 point? it may not work with fear or terror causing units but others? As for the panic test, i do agree with you. That kind of list will negate panic tests.

kormas
12-10-2008, 00:20
go Malorian:D.

i hate it when people say a lits sucks or that another list is unbeatable (my vc get soundly crushed quite often).

one thing though, is it legal to have some one on a cavelry mount in a non cavelry unit?, just curious because i've never seen anyone doing that.

and also when are you playing your next battle, i egerly await the outcome:D

Malorian
12-10-2008, 04:04
In the last rules if you had someone on a horse in an infantry unit he could be targeted with shooting. Now he's perfectly safe.

If everything goes to plan I'm playing tomb kings next weekend.

As to notes on my formation, the blocks and chariots are tightly set up in the center. So that give me a line of 24 inches + the width of the general which easily covers everything except for the fast cav on the flanks.

Storak
12-10-2008, 07:43
IIRC the major point that was made on this forum is O&G are useless and nobody can win with them.

the claim that this was the major point or that nobody can win with O&G is simply false. you will not be able to back your claims up with links.

i m holding my breath!

warlord hack'a
12-10-2008, 11:24
I won't give you a link, I'll give you a name: Hereticburner. But like I said, I will leave this thread to the poster so he can post his next report..

Peril
13-10-2008, 16:19
Storak I happen to agree with you that O&G are underpowered in context with the upper echelon tournament armies. I do think that a skilled general can with with them (a skilled general can win with any army they create).

The TK game will be interesting. The TK player has shown at least that he knows what he is doing during the game and that he can construct sensible army lists. In general TK are a really tough matchup for O&G so I will be very interested to hear how it ends up.

Storak
13-10-2008, 20:16
I won't give you a link, I'll give you a name: Hereticburner. But like I said, I will leave this thread to the poster so he can post his next report..

your claim is false, as i said above. here is a quote from Heretic Burner (http://warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2666369&postcount=70):


Nobody is suggesting the book will force the army to lose every game. However, there is overwhelming statistical evidence that the book has significantly crippled the O&G chances of earning battle points in tournament settings with respect to every other army in the game.

it took me five minutes to find it.


Storak I happen to agree with you that O&G are underpowered in context with the upper echelon tournament armies. I do think that a skilled general can with with them (a skilled general can win with any army they create).

The TK game will be interesting. The TK player has shown at least that he knows what he is doing during the game and that he can construct sensible army lists. In general TK are a really tough matchup for O&G so I will be very interested to hear how it ends up.

well and if TK win, he will proclaim 2:1 and fight some other mediocre lists, played by mediocre players. and even a victory for the orcs will not show anything.

what can he do, that the tournament record doesn t do better?
he chose a strong list, but nothing that we haven t seen before. i haven t noticed any special tactics he is using. but we have all noticed that the armies that he was playing against were suboptimal.

why should we dismiss the results of 10000 of GT battles and accaept his reports as the truth about orcs?

Kahadras
13-10-2008, 21:05
your claim is false, as i said above. here is a quote from Heretic Burner:


Actualy I think he might be refering to other posts made.

Still the point of this series of battle reports surely is to restore peoples faith in O&G as a viable army. You could put his list up against a bunch of maxed out DoC lists played by some of the most experienced tourney players in the game but it doesn't do much for the 'average' player. If Malorian had specifically stated that he was going to prove that O&G could beat GT lists then I would agree that his opposition was definatly substandard.


why should we dismiss the results of 10000 of GT battles and accaept his reports as the truth about orcs?

I'd assume his truth is the fact that O&G can win outside of tournaments. Something that GT battles don't show.

Kahadras

Peril
13-10-2008, 21:13
why should we dismiss the results of 10000 of GT battles and accaept his reports as the truth about orcs?


We shouldn't dismiss it at all. I agree with your assessment of the data. I don't think the army is hopeless by any means, but it doesn't take much to lose a tournament (and animosity is plenty enough).

Storak
13-10-2008, 21:23
Actualy I think he might be refering to other posts made.

no. the quote from heretic Burner directly contradicts his claim:

The point si , the true blue naysayers claim that whatever orc list you field, you will lose, because the book sucks.

there is nothing left to discuss. well, actually i would still like to see a link to the claim, that spiders are the worst cav in the game...


Still the point of this series of battle reports surely is to restore peoples faith in O&G as a viable army. You could put his list up against a bunch of maxed out DoC lists played by some of the most experienced tourney players in the game but it doesn't do much for the 'average' player. If Malorian had specifically stated that he was going to prove that O&G could beat GT lists then I would agree that his opposition was definatly substandard.

here is, what Malorian said on page 1:

Too many orc player complaining that they lose because their army book sucks. I'm doing this to show that if you look at strengths of the list rather than the weaknesses then they are as good as any other army.

"as good as any other army" implies to me "As good in tournaments as well". but hey, that is just me...


I'd assume his truth is the fact that O&G can win outside of tournaments. Something that GT battles don't show.

again, nobody ever denied, that O&G can win battles. so there is nothing to proof there. they struggle, when the environment becomes competitive.

Arguleon-veq
14-10-2008, 01:37
I had on Orc and Gob BatRep blog up a short while ago, only ten games though and I did indeed struggle with them against competative lists.

I faced Magic Heavy Chracian High Elves, Shooty Dwarfs, Balanced Undead and Magic Heavy Ghoul Horde.

I finished 6-4, I had the Ghoul Horde about 2 models away from being massacred, one awesome magic phase later despite my 10 Dispell Dice and I got beaten as the whole army come back. I wasn't using a competative Orc list though, just the models I owned with some purchases of models I like, so I included Black Orcs, Squigs and used a Magic Heavy army because I think Greenskin Magic is fun. I did try my upmost to win though and believe I am a good player.

A good player can win with Orcs and Gobs, but they will not win as often against upper tier armies as they would if they were using almost any other army in the game. So, of course, they can still win and are by no means un-usable but they are weak compared to most armies.

Malorian
14-10-2008, 02:38
Well I just got a PM from the TK player and I guess he has remade his 2K list to be as competitive as possible. Not sure what that will mean as I already found his 2K to be fairly strong and as magic heavy as possible, but we'll see.

One thing I'm willing to bet on is that he is going to take catapults with skulls of the foe to try and get some of those failed panic tests you are all looking for ; )

In any case I will do my best.

To comment on the purpose of this thread, Storak is right that this started with tournament results, however what got at me is how this quickly turned into orcs suck and are worthless. And this just isn't true.

Other lists might have obvious power builds but orcs can still compete with them all. My goal (to restate it) is to have a 75% winning average overall. This will range from inexperienced/poor armies all the way up to experienced/optimized armies. However, the vast majority will be ones like that empire army. Strong, maybe could be better, but definately not weak.

Recently I brought my vampires to Onslaught (as I'm sure you know from the battle reports) and when I look at the armies I faced I don't think my army would do too badly.

Against the khorne army the main thing would have been my spear chukkas against the bloodthirster. If I rolled badly I would be in trouble, but if I rolled ok I would have been fine. By the math I should be able to stand up to the hounds with my blocks and after the counter charge with my chariots be in a strong position, but in any case I think I wuold have done well.

Against the beasts... god, what I would have paid to trade my vampires for my orcs in that one. My orcs would have done sooo much better in that one.

Aainst the nurgle list... I don't know. I wouldn't have been able to touch the death star (much like the vamps) but I still should have been able to do well against the rest of it since I would have so many more units.

Finally aganist the dwarfs... this is actually the one I would have the most reservations about. My list is based around static combat res and dwarfs do it better than anyone. But my warmachines would be able to even the odds and in theory I would do fine in that game as well.


The main thing I got from thinking about how my orcs would do in the tournament made me have an idea about why the orcs wouldn't get the top spots. I could do well and win most of my games, but they wouldn't be massacres. The deamon and vampire armies are designed to get in there and destroy you and so when they win they win big and thus score big points.

This is something that might be biasing the stats because where you might have a general like me that can win with orcs most of the time (lets say 4 minor victories), my scores will fade when compared to the deamon list that didn't win all the time but won big (lets say a solid loss and three massacres).

Case in point, the beastmen player from Onslaught. He is basically my counterpart for the beastmen in that he wanted to show everyone that they can still be competitve. His first game was against a vampire player that he got a minor victory against, and his second was against my vampires were he got a tie. I lost track of him in the next two games but you see what I mean. His army in general was undefeated in those two games against the vampires which is a very good result in a win/lose ratio point of view. However he won't come anywhere near the top of the standings because his victories weren't slaughters.

In the end I hope to be that guy. Go up against any list that is willing to fight me and rack up more wins than defeats. To me that shows that orcs are still competitive and shuoldn't be taking the flak they have been on this forum.

all_seeing_eye
14-10-2008, 03:13
Alright, in the spirit of fairness, I've decided to post my rough draft of my 2000 point Tomb King List. Since I've been able to see Malorian's Orcs and Goblins list and think of some tatics to use against it, I've decided to give him the same chance.

Lords/Heroes: 811
Tomb King
Collar of Shapesh, Great Weapon, Light Armor
Liche Priest
Cloak of Dunes, Hieratic jar
Liche Priest
Staff of Ravening, Horse
Liche Priest
Casket of Souls

Core: 611
24 Skeleton Warriors
Light Armor, Sheild, Banner of the Undying Legion
15 Archers
3 Chariots
3 Chariots

Special: 467
20 Tomb Guard:
Full Command, Icon of Rakaph
Tomb Scoprion
3 Carrion

Rare: 110
Screaming Skull Catapult
Skulls of the foe

PLEASE NOTE: this list is subject to change, so what is posted here may not be what is used, this is just a broad outline of what i'm possibly bringing.

3Xhume
14-10-2008, 05:38
Drop Icon of Rakaph. You wont be needing them in horde battle. Add tomb swarms for warmachine hunting. Try to fit 2 more carrions in the list for maximizing marchblocking. Other than this, you are good to go.

warlord hack'a
14-10-2008, 09:46
so wait a minute: are we now going to maximize a list to play against O&G so that the O&G can fight them to prove that it's possible to win 75% of the time if you are a good general? That's not fair. Fair would be if the tomb king (and any other player fighting Malorian out there) would build a take all commers list as Malorian does not change his list depending on who he is facing either..

3Xhume
14-10-2008, 12:28
well, nevermind my post then. Just itching to give an advice of an effective TK army.

EvC
14-10-2008, 12:51
Well it will certainly be an interesting game. Malorian's gazillion dispel dice mean that I'm not going to put my money on the TK. Draw I say!

Gazak Blacktoof
14-10-2008, 13:01
Those Tk have a decent magic pool though- equivalent to 11 dice with no chance of a miscast and an additional 2 dice for 1 turn thanks to the jar.

As you say though it should be a close game provided both guys have got their thinking caps on the right way around. I wouldn't be surprised if the game is won on dice; animosity tests, fear and power/ dispel rolls are all going to have a major factor on the outcome of the battle.

warlord hack'a
14-10-2008, 13:03
7 dispel dice can take some of the hurt of, especially since the TK will have one casting dice less than they would have. Fear and panic will be a determining factor over here, as well as deployment: if the TK chariots can hit something worth points then that might spell trouble. it's 9 deployment choices for the TK (if fielding the scorpion right away), so the orcs have the edge there..

EvC
14-10-2008, 13:51
That's a point- Staff on Sneaky Stealing is not very good against Tomb Kings as it all does is take one of their power dice (Not casting dice!), which they won't be using anyway :D

warlord hack'a
14-10-2008, 13:53
now I am either missing something or you are joking about casting dice and power dice (bad wording in some books I guess?).

Malorian
14-10-2008, 13:56
TK don't use PD like other armies. Their incantations are automatically cast. The prince/king ones on 1 dice, priest on 2, and the high priest on 3. They also get 2 standard pool dice, but these are worthless other than dispelling remains in play spells.

blackjack
14-10-2008, 14:02
I predict it will be all about the skull cat. If it does its job and panics a bunch of units the TK win, if it misses or fails to panic the enemy win for the Orcs.

7dd means the casket will never open.

all_seeing_eye
14-10-2008, 15:49
7dd means the casket will never open.

I have never taken the casket in a tournament, and don't usually take the casket in anything under 3000 points, so that is exactly my thinking right now. I want build the hardest all-comers list i can. Which is leading me to consider a Second Screaming Skull Catapult, and possibly changing the outfit on my King.

The final list should be up around Thursday or Friday.

Peril
14-10-2008, 16:28
These tips would be for this TK army, regardless of the foe. They are also just food for thought, not necessarily thes best way to do things.

Characters

Tomb King - Destroyer of Eternities, Collar of Shapesh
Liche Priest - Dispel Scroll
Liche Priest - Dispel Scroll
Liche Priest - Cloak of the Dunes

Core

Skeletons 24x - Champion, Standard, Banner of the Undying Legion
Chariots 4x - Standard
Chariots 4x - Standard
Archers 20x - Standard

Special

Scorpion
Scorpion
Scorpion
Scorpion

Rare

Skull Catapult
Skull Catapult

Use the Scorpions to neutralize Chariots, kill warmachines and pin big units in place (since he will have more infantry than you). Pound the unit with the +DD banner with Catapults (4 times a turn) until it runs or is mangled enough they don't get many dice (Deploy catapults near King's unit so he can help make them fire as well). Flank infantry with Chariots, or charge in the front if unit does not have full rank bonus or no S7 character. Rank archers and use as infantry when things get close (and keep them healed). Dare the Orc Warboss to fight your King.

all_seeing_eye
14-10-2008, 16:48
No one should ever have that many Tomb Scorpions in a 2000 point list, No one. While they are an extremely good and nasty unit, i find by taking more than two is a mistake. Most people find more than two scorpions annoying to play against and personally i'd rather take some of the other specials available.

Peril
14-10-2008, 19:19
No one should ever have that many Tomb Scorpions in a 2000 point list, No one. While they are an extremely good and nasty unit, i find by taking more than two is a mistake. Most people find more than two scorpions annoying to play against and personally i'd rather take some of the other specials available.

Yeah you won't make any friends (at all) with 4 scorpions. I listed them that way simply because you were looking to make a hard all-comers army.

3Xhume
14-10-2008, 23:07
btw, can you guys take pictures of the battle? I would like to examine the battle closely in order to find any tactical choices available on the battlefield. Hope im not asking too much. Thank you.

@peril: That is a sick TK army. Just the type of cheese that TK able to bring.

Malorian
16-10-2008, 05:51
Game 3: Damn tree huggers...

Orko Morko looked across the field at his next opponent. The woodelves had gotten angry at the number of trees they had cut down to make their camp, and so backed up with some walking trees and a bucket load of bows they had come to get their revenge.

"Hey Smashy! Come ova ere!" The black orc big boss put down a rabbit he had been poking with a stick and came over to see what his general wanted. "Your stayin bakk on dis un. I wanna try uot da new guy."

From behind him a goblin on a wolf raced out, jumped over the pair, and then saluted Orko Morko. "Zip Blade reporting for duty sir!"

"You see smashy, dis guy REALLY want to get a chance at killin som elveses."

Smashy grunted disapprovingly and tossed his great axe at Krazyface "Ere, you'll need it mor dan me..."


So I made some changes to my list as I found that smashy wasn't doing what I wanted. A goblin big boss on a wolf will be come into play each game without fail. I also switch up the weapon on the warboss after doing some thinging about protracted battles and fighting tougher units I can't killingblow.

(Kaptin Krazyface)Savage orc warboss w/ great axe, iron gnashas
(big Rokk)Black orc BSB w/ spirit totem, heavy armor, boar
(Zip Blade) Goblin big boss w/ wolf, one hit wunda, light armor, shield
(Welpsly)Night goblin shaman w/ staff of sneaky stealing

25 boyz w/ shields, banner
25 boyz w/ shields, banner
25 boyz w/ shields, banner
25 boyz w/ shields, banner
27 night goblins w/ 2 fanatics, nets, banner
6 wolf riders w/ bows, spears, musician, banner
5 wolf riders w/ bows, spears, musician
5 spider riders w/ musician

Orc chariot
Orc chariot
2 spear chukkas
2 spear chukkas

Doom diver
Troll

1998 points


Her list:

Lvl 4 mage w/ 2 dispel scrolls
Noble w/ eternal kindred, dawn spear, amber pendant, light armor, shield

10 glade guard
10 glade guard
10 glade guard
10 glade guard
10 glade riders / full command
19 eternal guard w/ full command

11 war dancers w/ champ, musician
4 treekin

Treeman
5 waywatchers


The board was 6X4. We each had a hill at the back of our deployment zone. There was a forest in the left side of my deployment zone and noe in the right of hers. He placed her free woods just right of center.

I deployed the banner wolves w/ Zip Blade on the left flank, the spiders behind the trees, then fron left to right there was: orcs, chariot, orcs, night goblins w/ Big Rokk, Welpsly and the troll in front, orcs w/ Krazyface, chariot, orcs, and the small wolf unit on the right flank. The warmachines were on the hill.

She deployed the archers on the hill with the mage in one of them (it's a two stage hill so three across the back and one in the front), the treekin were on the left flank, and the eternal guard w/ noble were to the left of the hill. to the right of the hill was the treeman, then the wardancers, and finally the riders were the farthest to the right. The waywatchers scuoted into the trees to my left.

I got first turn.


Pre-game thoughts: I wanted to shoot up that treeman with my spear chukkas, but her free forest was between them and me. Basically the plan was to take out the waywatchers with the spiders. Run up the center with most of the army while hopefully hitting the flank of the treekin with the wolf riders. On the right flank my shooting shouldbe able to take care of the riders and a block cuold deal with the dancers.


Turn 1 Orcs:

Animosity sees the wolf riders on the left squabble and Krazyface's unit run up 6. The troll fails the Ld9 stupidity and stumbles forward with the night goblins doing their best to follow behind. The spiders move up an inch away from the waywatchers. The main line moves up to catch up with the general's unit. The right block and the right chariot heading off to the right of her free trees. The right wolve riders then run behind the trees on the right. In the shooting phase the doomdiver hits the archer unit with the mage but only kills 1. The spear chukkas all aim at the eternal guard and kill 4.

Turn 1 Wood elves:

Treekin move up and wheel to the center with the eternal guard edging up a bit. The waywatchers move to the right edge of the trees (still in LOS of my spiders). Tree man movesbehind her free trees and the riders move into the right trees and form one long line. The dancer move up. The magic phase is shut down and in the shooting phase I lose 3 of the right wolf riders (they fail panic and flee (see EvC it does happen :p)), and I lose 5 orcs from the unit just right of the night goblins, and 3 from the far ledt unit.

Turn 2 Orcs:

With the flank of the riders in view I declare my Waaagh. The left wolf riders move up 6, the spiders squabble and I lose 4 of them (they pass panic), left unit moved up 2, the second unit squabbled and I lost 1 orc, the night goblins rnu into the troll, the general's unit moves up 4 inches so I'm right behind her free trees, and the unit on the right moved up 3 (would it be enough...). I declare a charge with my wolf riders on the flank of the treekin (pass fear), and the right orcs charge the riders, but are a quarter of an inch out and fail. The troll passes stupidity and two wolf riders rally. In the movement phase I move up what I can, but I'm march blocked on the left. The lone spider rider hides in the corner and the two wolf riders run back to the glade riders. Gaze of gork is scrolled. In the shooting phase the doom diver hits the war dancers and kills 2. Spear chukkas only kill 1 eternal guard. In combat I use the one hit wunda but only do a single wound to the treekin. The treekin targets my hero and does a wound. I win and the treekin break and are run down as I overrun into the flank of the eternal guard.

Turn 2 Wood elves:

Treeman charges my troll who flees and gets away (this triggers thefanatics but they fail to hit him). The war dancers move into the right trees and the riders move to my orcs flank. Waywatchers move behind my left block. In the magic phase she moves the trees to cover the treeman. In the shooting phase I lose 3 orcs from my right unit, 7 night goblins, and a few more orcs in the right unit. One fanatic is shot and the treeman uses strangle root to kill the other one. I pass all panic tests. In combat I kill only one eternal guard and he kills 1 rider. It's a draw thanks to the musicians.

Turn 3 Orcs:

I pass terror tests. Animosity does nothing. The left chariot charges the eternal guard and the troll rallies. Still march blocked I do my best to move up the main line. The general's unit moves into the woods to see the treeman. The right orcs turn to put both the glade riders and the wardancers in their front arc and the chariot moves up to support. In the magic phase gaze of gork is scrolled again. The doom diver kills another two war dancers and the spear chukkas kill 6 glade riders and 2 archers from the weakened unit. The riders pass panic. In combat the chariot kills 6 eternal guard and the noble does a wound to the chariot. I lose another wolf but I will three moer eternal guard with the riders. The stubborn eternal guard hold.

Turn 3 Wood elves:

Wardancers charge the right chariot which flees (killing 4 from my general's unit and it runs through them) and gets away. Theriders move to be able 10 inches infront of my right block. Treeman steps back. Mage moves to another unit. Magic is shut down, and in the shooting phase I lose 17 night goblins and 8 orcs from my general's unit due to strangle root. Panics are passed. I also lose an orc from the right unit and an orc from the left unit. In combat the noble does another wound to the chariot and I kill a few more eternal guard, but they still hold.

Turn 4 Orcs:

Animosity sees my right unit move 4 inches towards the riders and both the left blocks squabble.Troll charges waywatchers and loses a wound to stand and shoot. Big Rokk charges out of what's left of the night goblnis into the front archer unit taking no damage from stand and shoot. The right block charges the riders and they flee and get away. chariot rallies. Welpsly moves into the orc block to his right and Krazyface moves into the night goblin unit once it moves up. His old unit then keeps following the treeman. Gaze of Gork is stopped. In the shooting phase the doomdiver kills two archers from the left unit, and the spear chukkas kill two of the fleeing riders so they can't rally. In combat the chariot losses another wound and I kill more eternal guard who won't break. Big Rokk only kills 1 archer, she loses the roll off for the tie and breaks and I run into the back archer unit with the mage in it. The right archers fail their panic and run. The troll kills 1 waywatcher, takes a wuond himself and then runs and gets away.

Turn 4 Wood elves:

Wardancers charge the flank of the orcs in the trees and they flee, running over units all the way to the left flank, but I pass my panic tests. Waywatchers charge the fleeing troll and it gets away. Riders run off the board and the archers fail their rally and moe closer to the board edge. Magic is shut down. What little shooting there is kills a few orcs ni the left unit. In combat the eternal guard are now down to the champ and the noble with one wound who hold (she really wanted to kill that chariot but just couldn't do it). Big Rokk kills 1 archer, losses combat but holds.

Turn 5 Orcs:

Animosity does nothing. Krazyface runs in to join Big Rokk, and the right chariot charges the war dancers. The troll keeps running and the orcs that fled to the left flank rally. The left reforms to face the waywatchers and the right one reforms to face the wardancers. Doom diver misfires and can't fire this or next turn. Spear chukkas kill a few of the left archers. In combat the eternal guard is wiped out. The chariot kills two war dancers and they hold. Krazyface, with his 5 str 7 attacks kills nothing (!!!) and Big Rokk only manages to kill 1 archer. I lose combat but hold (she was winning because of high ground).

At this point she gives up.

Victory to the Orcs! (3-0)


The battle was won and the new guy Zip Blade had earned his spot in the ranks. However Krazyface and Big Rokk would be on outhouse duty for weeks after they pathetic display.

Orko Morko was happy at how the campain was going so far. Little did he know that a greater foe was just around the corner...


Post-game thoughts: Man did those characters let me down. That was really just terrible. Five attacks, four miss, and the last one fails to wound! Bah! I'm still happy with my changes to the list. That wolve rider unit is a solid unit now and is capable of a lot more. Those night goblins just shot to bits, but that was to be expected. I just hope things go this well against tomb kings...

Thanks for reading.

Latro
16-10-2008, 06:28
Big Rokk only kills 1 archer, she loses the roll off for the tie and breaks and I run into the back archer unit with the mage in it.

:confused: ... not exactly sure what you mean here. Anyway, great report!


:cool:

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
16-10-2008, 12:31
Excellent report, Malorian. I'll be honest, I rarely flee free any charge (it's just the US Marine in me), but after seeing how effective it can be and that it's quite possible to rally your troops afterward, I'll be trying it out in my next game. I have never played against Wood Elves before, but I've heard how nasty they can be. Was this a "competitive" list? I know that's not what you're doing with these reports, but I'm just curious as to where it stands as far as competitiveness/nasty units.

Malorian
16-10-2008, 14:11
Fleeing is a god send. Between setting up flank charges and counter charging (or even just saving one of your units) it's a must.

Her list is better than it used to be, and is now definately 'competitive'. It's no two treemen and a BSB list, but it doesn't suck either.

EvC
16-10-2008, 14:19
Busting through those Treekin like that was a great move, I assume that was the Wolf Rider unit with Standard, which just gave you the edge in CR. That kind of flukiness would never work with me, but well done! ;)

Shame your opponents are still giving up, with a Treeman and level 4 still on the table she could've done a fair bit of damaege with two turns left.

all_seeing_eye
16-10-2008, 23:39
Heres most likely final version of the list, but no promises.
So ladies and gentlemen place your bets.

Lord/Heroes: 708
Tomb King: 265
Collar of Shapesh, Destroyer of Eternities
Liche Priest: 160
Hieratic Jar, Cloak of Dunes
Liche Priest: 168
Staff of Ravening, Horse
Liche Priest: 115

Core: 611
24x Skeleton Warriors: 251
Light Armor, Shield, Banner of the Undying Legion.
3 Chariots: 120
4 Chariots: 160
10x Archers: 80

Special: 480
Tomb Scorpion: 85
Tomb Scorpion: 85
20x Tomb Guard: 310
Full Command, Icon of Rakaph

Rare: 200
Screaming Skull Catapult: 110
Skulls of the Foe
Screaming Skull Catapult: 90

Total 1999 points

3Xhume
17-10-2008, 07:30
TK win will be determined by how good the catapults perform and deployment. Given an equally skilled general, Malorian has a greater chance IF most panic test passed from the catapult.

blackjack
17-10-2008, 14:01
I agree it all comes down to the Cats. Practice your range guessing... Also realise your Cat's will be targeted by his spear chuckas ASAP. What's the range of a spear chucka anyway?

Darkspear
17-10-2008, 14:07
I do not thing malorian should waste bolt thrower shots at the catapults, at S6 they need 5's to wound the machine
i would think it boils down to whether all_seeing_eye can break malorian's blocks with the chariots or will they end up squashd my malorian's own

EvC
17-10-2008, 14:08
Lol shooting spear chukkas at Screaming Skull catapults is a BAD idea. You're unlikely to blow up the machine, and even if you get lucky and kill all the crew, the TK player can just bring them back...

Malorian
17-10-2008, 14:09
Spear chukka range is 48 inches, and no they will probably not be aiming at the catapults ; )

I'm not too worried about the catapults. The larger bases of the orcs mean less models will be hit, and with the general's Ld 9 (down graded to Ld8 with skulls of the foe) the unit has a 72% chance of passing (fairly decent). Then if I do fail and flee I'll then be testing on Ld 9 to rally which will pass 83% of the time.

The thing that does worry me about that army is that bloody king. His king with that setup has been a major pain in my side and with smiting can usually kill anything I throw at him (hell he even killed Lahboura!).

We'll see how it goes.

all_seeing_eye
17-10-2008, 20:13
I was going to keep the king with just an ordinary Great weapon to save points, but then decided DOE is to good against ranked units to pass up.

I have a feeling this game is going to go to who ever is luckier. I'm deadly accurate with my catapults, and Malorian know this (everytime i've faced a treeman its gone down in flames because of my catapult shots). You never know though, we may have our own tricks were going to pull on each other.

And by the way Malorian, i'm gunning for your Wunda Gobba Zip Blade.

Gobbo Lord
17-10-2008, 23:26
Malorian, in your report about your wood elves victory you say something along the lines of a Black Orc killing one wood elf and the Elves getting one point of combat res for being elevated. You then say your opponent lost the roll of for the tie (?) fled, and your Black Orc persued into another unit...... Did I read that right?

If I did then some thing potentially game altering has occured destroying an elf unit and getting another into combat. If the combat was tied you dont roll off for it with the loser taking a break test. You stay put untill the next round of combat (In which the elves would have struck first)

That is how it reads...... you rolled of for a tied combat..... right...... suely not. Can you clarify this?

Malorian
17-10-2008, 23:46
I wouldn't call this a house rule, but this is something our gaming group as a whole is bad for (or rather at least when I and the DE player are together).

I don't know where this rule comes from, it must have been passed down from old rules or something, but I can think of several times when our group has done this, and I'm sure we'll make the same mistake several times again :D It's just one of our quirks and something that happens when you have a group od people that have played over several editions and several gaming systems.

In this case it helped me, but I'd hardly call it game altering. A few more dead orcs wouldn't have saved those archers from being swamped in the last few turns.

These are actually the comments I want the most (believe it or not) that weed out mistakes and keep us on the straight and narrow :p

Gobbo Lord
18-10-2008, 00:02
Just I noticed the unit you persued into contained a Mage, who could have maybe got a game altering spell of next turn had he/she not been in combat. The unit persued into were also bow equipped and on a hill and so could have, with an extra round of shooting, caused an Orc unit to panic, posibly spreading panic through more of your army.

Lets not forget that had you not had this odd roll off, the Black Orc may well have lost the next round of combat and he himself fled.

It seems like a pretty big thing to allow, especially considering the above possibilities. (Even if you broke them the following turn it would have given your opponent the chance to move the Mage out of the second unit and be available to cast further spells without being locked into a combat)

Game could have been very different without this "House Rule", considering you are trying to prove a point about Greenskins perhaps best to ignore such strange rulings.

Malorian
18-10-2008, 01:43
Keep this in mind:

1) The chances of of 6ish archers beating my BSB balck orc are very remote and not even worth thinking about.

2) I was giving them the benifit of high ground just to be nice since I was all over her, and if she wouldn't have gotten the high ground I would have won by 1 anyway.

3) Even with my spirit totem not generating extra dice I still had 4DD to her 5PD. The chances of her doing much with her magic (especially when it's the wood elve lore) is very small.

4) I full unit of archers shooting at my orcs at close range should still only kill 3 orcs. Due to the combat not all archers had LOS to the same unit so she probably couldn't have killed enough to cause a panic test. Then if she did, I would still be taking it with my Ld9 due to the general.

5) To her left flank my chariot and wold riders were about to charge in anyway in the final rounds. The waywatchers were tied down by the other chariot and about to be charged by a block of orcs. The waywatchers were on the run and could only wait until my doom diver turned it's attention to them. It was over... plain and simple.

I'll admit we made a mistake but lets face it, at this point the game was over and the orcs were going to win anyway.

Dexter099
18-10-2008, 02:22
I suppose you won, Mal, but you never really know. Still, it doesn't really matter, since you were going to win anyways.

Malorian
18-10-2008, 02:53
I suppose you won, Mal, but you never really know. Still, it doesn't really matter, since you were going to win anyways.

Bingo.

Now where are the comments of:

"Wow, those orc warmachines really work great! And for such a good price!"
"Wow, those cheap troops can soak up a lot of damage and still be effective!"
"Wow, you can get so many units that you can flee and setup countercharges like crazy!"
"Wow, orcs can get so many DD with very little points!"

One little mistake doesn't take away that the orcs are so far going extremely well.

3Xhume
18-10-2008, 03:29
I dont mean to be rude, but i kinda expecting:

"damn, these orc always gone fleeing or go squabble!"
"damn, why does the goblins kept failing their fear tests!"
"damn, how do i reach your lines if i was marchblocked 24 miles away!"

oh but i do expect this too
"Wow, chukkas are GREAT for merely 35 points"

EvC
18-10-2008, 12:46
Keep this in mind:

1) The chances of of 6ish archers beating my BSB balck orc are very remote and not even worth thinking about.

They already had beaten you once, when you had charged. You were less likely to win the second round of combat then the first- and who knows, maybe your opponent would have passed her break test the next round? I'm sure having her nearby Archers not panicking would have helped too.


2) I was giving them the benifit of high ground just to be nice since I was all over her, and if she wouldn't have gotten the high ground I would have won by 1 anyway.

Either she had high ground or not. Pictures for proof next time please (kidding ;) ).


3) Even with my spirit totem not generating extra dice I still had 4DD to her 5PD. The chances of her doing much with her magic (especially when it's the wood elve lore) is very small.

And the Treeman's bound spell. But still, it does not sound like your opponent is very accomplished at using Treesinging to any great effect.


5) To her left flank my chariot and wold riders were about to charge in anyway in the final rounds. The waywatchers were tied down by the other chariot and about to be charged by a block of orcs. The waywatchers were on the run and could only wait until my doom diver turned it's attention to them. It was over... plain and simple.

I've played enough games to know that letting one simple mistake through can have a huge effect on the game, especially when it gifted you her level 4's unit, destroyed one unit and made another unit panic (which of course failed to rally, as Orcs and Goblins have far better leadership than Elves, as we are all learning from your battle reports). Ok you probably still would have won, but you'd have had to work for it a bit harder ;)

Malorian
18-10-2008, 14:23
EvC:

1. Double check the battle report. In turn 4 Big Rokk charged and this was the turn with the draw issue. She hadn't beaten me in combat until I was fighting the archers behind (the one with the mage) that had a rank bonus and actually did have high ground. If I had stayed in that combat a turn longer then I wouldn't haave fought the unit behind until I would have hit it with Krazyface as well in turn 5. The unit being free would have aslo let me take off that rank with my warmachines.

2. It was the GW two stage hill. The first archer unit left enough room so that my BSB was also on the first stage of the hill. The stant of the first stage meant that the archers were higher, but the book actually says they are suppose to be on the crest of the hill to get the bonus (so this was like claiming to be defending linear terrain when you were two inches behind it). Not wanting to be picky at this point I let her have it. Little did I know that a small rule mistake would then lead to people discounting the entire report *rolls eyes*. Don't worry, I'll have pictures of todays game.

3. Usually she plays more aggressively with it but two things were against her. A) The rest of her army was already smashed so she had gone defensive with it, and B) In her last three games against the TK player he had killed it first turn, so I thing she is actually starting to think that it is weak and is protecting it more.

5. "Ok you probably still would have won, but you'd have had to work for it a bit harder." Alright then, so lets stop trying to discredit this orc win.


Looking to the future, the DE player wants to play a 3K game on wednesday and I'm thinking of bring my orcs against him. I don't like my 3K list but it's all I can do with the models I have, and I have a bad feeling he wants to break out his dual-dragon list again. Plus he's been talking about a setup for his lord that could even crush my dwarf lord in one turn...

So if the orcs start getting mroe support I'll probably have the courage to use my 3K list, otherwsie I'm thinking it's time my bretonnians take to the field again ;)

happy_doctor
18-10-2008, 17:31
I propose that we found the Orcish Support and Acknowledgment Front! (O.S.A.F)

Its purpose will be to cheer for the orcs in any battle report and pick a fight (literally! Bash 'em Lads!) against any who discounts them as a bad army! :D

...Of course, in typical Monty Python fashion, what we will hate more than nay-sayers is the Front for Orcish Acknowledgment and Support (FOAS) and the Orcish Front of Acknoledgment and Support (OFAS)!


.......In other words, Malorian, I would really like to see the Orcs battle it out at 3000 points VS the Dark Elves! So, no tin-cans for you this time, once you're green you never go tin! :)

P.S. sorry for my horrendous attempt at humour, it's the best I can do with my little spare time!

Malorian
19-10-2008, 01:02
Game 4: The only thing to fear is fear itself

The great shaman passed the bag of money over to the tomb king "Ok, they'll be here soon. Use your catapults to smash them to bits!"

The tomb king passed the bag to one of his priests, "We'll do our best, but you realize that they are going to be trying to take them out as soon as possible. I'm here for the money, but I'm not doing anything suicidal. If things start going bad I'm gone."

"Oh don't worry about them, have you seen the tournament scores of orcs? They suck!"

The tomg king raised an eyebrow, "You realize you're an orc right?"

Storak stood up straight, "I used to be, but now chaos has made me strong."

"Riiight... and you also realize that those same statistics show that TK lose a lot too right?"

Storak faultered, "Er... um... "

"Have you ever played us in big games? We can put out some major hurt when he have our magic in place and some solid blocks."

"Er... umm... Maybe, you'll never know... I don't make any battle reports. For all you know I'm the best."

"Riiight... how convenient..."

"It doesn't matter! just get out there and do your job!"

The tomb king and the priest smiled at each other and made their way out towards there awaiting army.


So our armies are the last ones we had posted.

The board was 5X4 as we had to use a smaller board. We each had a hill in our deployment zone, and there was a forest in the right of my deployment zone and one just up from the left of his. For kicks he also put down a linear terain shown by the barbed wire in the picture.

I deployed my usual way. Block, chariot, block, goblins w/ BSB and troll in front, block w/ general, chariot, block. The larger wolf group w/ goblin hero was squished between the formation and the woods on the right, and in the woods were the spider riders and the night goblin shaman. You can't see it in the picture but the other wolf riders were on the left flank. And of course the warmachines were on the hill.

He deployed from left to right: archers w/ tomb guard w/ mounted priest behind, catapult, skeletons w/ king and priest, catapult, then 3 chariots on the hill (and a priest hiding behind), scorpian, 4 chariots, and finally the other scorpian at the edge of the boar.

http://i534.photobucket.com/albums/ee350/Malorian/OrcsVsTk10182008/OrcsVsTK10182008001.jpg

I got frst turn.

Pre-game thoughts: I was surprised to see his scorpian not dug in by my warmachines. I was guessing he was going to use his typical assassination tactics that he does against my vampires. It was obvious he had everything fast on the right and the blocks on the left. My plan was to stop and smsh the right flank so the wolf riders could make a run at the catapults and characters. Once that was done I would bait away the skeletons and target the tomb guard. I know fear could be a big part of the match, but if I could take out the catapults early it wouldn't be a problem.


Turn 1 Orcs:

Animosity saw Zip Blade bicker but I [passed my stupidity. The main line moved up with the wolves on the left setting up to charge the left catapult and the troll running ahead. On the right the right block wheeled to be ready for a chariot charge and the spider riders moved to the edge of the trees. I skipped the magic phase the entire game. In the shooting phase the catapult misfaired and couldn't shoot, and all four spear chukkas aimed at the tomb guar, but the one that hit failed to wound the first model. The left wolves shot at the catapult. I didn't do any damage, but I knew I was in range.

http://i534.photobucket.com/albums/ee350/Malorian/OrcsVsTk10182008/OrcsVsTK10182008002.jpg

Turn 1 TK:

His left flank moves up and the archers in particular move to block the charge to the catapult. The right side also moves up and the main priest flies over to cause some magical charges. The magic phase saw the four chariots charge my right block, and in doing so they triggered my fanatics. I send them through my general's unit (killing 6) to land them in fron of the other orcs. When the chariots finshed their charged they landed on them and lost three chariots (!!!). This greatly angered the TK player and we had to spend some time making sure it was legit (so iz so sneaky...). He used the staff of ravening on the troll to no effect. One catapult misfired and couldn't shoot this round but the other one hit the general's unit and killed 7. I passed my panic test. Archers shoot at the wolves to no effect.

http://i534.photobucket.com/albums/ee350/Malorian/OrcsVsTk10182008/OrcsVsTK10182008003.jpg

Turn 2 Orcs:

Animosity makes the left block run up and the next block and the night goblins squabble. Troll passes stupidity and runs up ready to charge either catapult. The wolf riders on the left declare a charge on the archers, but fail their fear test (EvC count for this battle = 1). General runs to the block to the left of the night goblins. The left orcs move up to charge the archers next turn and the wolves and spiders move up to put pressure on the right flank. In the shooting phase I pull a sneaky on and aim the doom diver at the left scorpion but guess far enough to hit the priests hiding behind. A bad scatter ruins my sneakiness. The spear chukkas then kill the left scorpian.

http://i534.photobucket.com/albums/ee350/Malorian/OrcsVsTk10182008/OrcsVsTK10182008004.jpg

Turn 2 TK: (At this point he switched from his red dice to his black dice...)

The three chariots move up and in the magic phase (thanks to the jar) they charge into the weakened block. The heirophant moves to the left part of the hill in hard cover and the right one moves up into hard cover. His mounted mage joins the left catapult. His archers and the two blocks move up and his scorpian holds to keep control of the right. In the magic phase his staff of ravening goes crazy and kills the troll (damn). One catapult hits the general's new block and I fail my panic and run (EvC = 2). The other catapult scatters and kills the left chariot. The archers shoot at the wolves and amazingly kill 4, but I pass my panic test. In combat the orcs are destroyed and ran down as the chariots pursue into the night goblins (clipping the edge and lining up). However, this is where everything fall apart as the chariot fails it's panic and runs, as does the right block which runs over the right wolf riders (who pass their panic) and land in the trees (good thing the spider riders moved up) (EvC = 4).

http://i534.photobucket.com/albums/ee350/Malorian/OrcsVsTk10182008/OrcsVsTK10182008005.jpg

Turn 3 Orcs:

Animosity does nothing. Left block charges archers, and the left wolf tries to but fails it's fear test (EvC = 5). The right wolves want to charge the scorpian but they fail their fear test (EvC = 6). The general and the chariot rally, but the right block fails (EvC = 7) and runs off the board (while running over the mage, but he passed his panic). In the movement phase there wasn't much to do, but the spider riders move up to the left of the scorpain do force the scorpian to either charge them or let me have a crack as several good targets. In the shooting phase the doom diver aims at the heirphant and scatters off. The spear chukkas aim at the scorpian but all miss. In combat I net the chariots and this leads to another rules question as we aren't sure what happens first, the nets or the impact hits. We check the book and the nets happen at the start of the combat phase while the impact hits are at the start of the combat. So his weakened chariots only kill 3 goblins and after everything is said and done there is just one chariot left. The archers are wiped out but I don't over run (need to wait for the general to catch up).

http://i534.photobucket.com/albums/ee350/Malorian/OrcsVsTk10182008/OrcsVsTK10182008006.jpg

Turn 3 TK:

Scorpain charges the spiders and I flee and get away but a quarter of an inch. The Tomb guard charge the block who also flee and I get away. His skeletons move up and in the magic phase me magically tries to charge the scorpian into the night goblins (to assassinate the BSB) but is out of range, and I let him magically charge his tomb guard at the block and I flee all the way over my general's unit at the back of the board (I pass panic)(I didn't think they would run so far...). His catapult misfires and can't fire in the shooting phase and the other one scatters and kills 3 orcs from the fleeing unit. In combat the last chariot is destroyed.

http://i534.photobucket.com/albums/ee350/Malorian/OrcsVsTk10182008/OrcsVsTK10182008007.jpg

Turn 4 Orcs:

Animosity has the nightgoblins run at the scorpian as do the right wolf riders. The spiders fail to rally and flee towards his hill (EvC = 8). The orc block rallies. The night goblins charge the scorpian, and the chariot tries to too but fails it's fear test (EvC = 9). The wolf riders run up to threaten the flank of the skeletons and the catapults and characters and the general's unit moves up. The lone wolf on the left hides behind the woods for the rest of the game. In the shooting phase my doom diver scatters off his heirophant again and fails to wound the catapult. The spear chukkas do better and kill 5 tomb guard. In the BSB does 2 wounds to the scorpian and I save the one wound caused back, leaving him to crumble.

http://i534.photobucket.com/albums/ee350/Malorian/OrcsVsTk10182008/OrcsVsTK10182008008.jpg

Turn 4 TK:

Tomb guard use their banner to turn around and they move back and turn back around again to face my general. The skeletons turn to face the wolf riders. In the magic phase the staff of ravening kills one of the wolf riders. Both catapults scatter but one still hits the general's unit and kills 1 (I pass my panic).

http://i534.photobucket.com/albums/ee350/Malorian/OrcsVsTk10182008/OrcsVsTK10182008009.jpg

Turn 5 Orcs:

I declared a Waaagh as I hoped to get the jump on the tomb guard, but they only run up three, the BSB has to quell the animosity and kills two night goblins, and the wolf riders move up 1 inch. I declare a charge against the catapult with the priest in it and am glad when the spiders fail their rally (EvC = 10) leaving enough room. I fail my fear test however and they do nothing (EvC =11). The general's unit moves up to the tomb guard forcing with the other block following behind and the BSB joinding the trailing unit. The night goblins reform to face the king and the chariot follows behind. My doom diver misses the heirophant AGAIN, but the spear chukkas kill 6 tomb guard.

http://i534.photobucket.com/albums/ee350/Malorian/OrcsVsTk10182008/OrcsVsTK10182008010.jpg

Turn 5 TK:

The tomb guard charge my general's unit and the skeletons reform to face my flank. At this point I slapped my head as I had forgotten to run the lone wolf around to redirect this possible charge. However, in a nail biting set of dice rolls (and having to let his rod kill another wolf) I manage to stop it all and the magic charge is a no go. Catapults hit the BSB's unit but they roll badly and I lose only 3 orcs and and then fail my panic test and run back (EvC = 12). In combat he missed all his attacks (3 aimed at my general) and after all is said and done only the champ is left.

*Sorry, no picture*

Turn 6 Orcs:

Animosity does nothing and sure that I won't fail another fear test the wolf riders again declare a charge on the priest led catapult and the night goblins declare a charge on the flank of the skeletons to keep them tied up. I fail both of them so they do nothing (EvC = 14). The BSB rallies. Finally my doom diver does something and kills the heirophant. The spear chukkas aim at the skeletons and all miss except for one that fails to wound. In combat the champ goes first (even though my rank and file should have) and killing blowed my general (!!!) before crumbling. At the end of the phase his catapult took some wounds but he out them on the warmachine.

http://i534.photobucket.com/albums/ee350/Malorian/OrcsVsTk10182008/OrcsVsTK10182008011.jpg

Turn 6 TK:

The catapult losses it's crew and the skeletons turn to face the skeletons. In the magic phase his king charges the wolf riders and they flee, and then for the last shot of the game the catapult shoots at the BSB unit, kills 4, and then I fail my panic test and flee off the board takinga spear chukka with me (EvC = 16).

http://i534.photobucket.com/albums/ee350/Malorian/OrcsVsTk10182008/OrcsVsTK10182008012.jpg

We add up the points and even with those last second losses I'm still able to keep it to a draw.

Hurray, still no losses for the Orcs!!! (3-0-1)


Morko Orko ran up to his fallen commander and looked down to see if he was alright. The blade had gone deep into Krazyface's chest, but he was still hanging on to life.

"Morko!" Welpsly yelled as he run up. "Iz ok, I fownd a heeler!" Morko looked over to see a dark robed orc move passed Welpsly and kneel down to the fallen Kaptin.

The robed stranger looked at him, looked at him some more, and then pulled someting out of his pocket. Quickly the knife went into the Kaptin's throat and with a spirt of blood Krazyface was dead. Then standing up he addressed Morko, "That was his last chance. If he was strong enough that 'healing dagger' would have fixed him right up. I guess it's good he's out of the way, er, I mean dead."

The black orc warboss scratched his head, "Reely? I alwys tut dat he waz on of da tuffest... oh well. So... looks like wez have an opin'n. You want in?"

The robed figure bowed, "It would be my honour. By the way my name is great shaman Storak, and I can promice you I'll do everything in my power to aid you."

"Das great. Ok, boyz, dis guy iz wit us now." And with that Morko hoped onto his boar and began to lead his boyz off to the next battle, leaving Storak behind grinning cunningly to himself.


Post-game thoughts: That one chariot charge changed everything. I should have been smarter and fled with them so that he would just hit the night goblins. On that note I'm starting to think that with all the fleeing I'm doing (both tactical and forced) that it might be wise to free up some points to get musicians in most of my units rather than just the fast cav. And on that note what was with all the failed tests? Had the goblin big boss passed one of those tests he would have been down a catapult and a mage. And on that note what was up with my doom diver? With all those scatters it was lucky to finally hit home on the last turn or else I would be trading it in for two pump wagons now. At least out of this it was a good game, and it was interesting to see that the TK strategy of sitting back and just forcing me to take as many tests as possible worked so well. At least after this I should be able to go a couple game straight with no failed Ld tests and not have to worry about EvC saying that my orcs must be part elve ;)

Oh and if you noticed we made one small mistake (the tomg guard champ going before the orcs that could have killed him and save my general) with could have 'altered' the game. Lets see if nay-sayers make as big as a deal as that did over my mistake in the last game :p

Anyway, thanks for reading.

Dexter099
19-10-2008, 01:50
That's a ton of Orcs and war machines. That's the problem with most Orc players, they load up on too many big guys, and then try to get numbers by spamming goblins. Their golbin blocks then die horribly, and their elite units will usually lose to enemy elite units or get flanked after their goblin blocks collapse.

all_seeing_eye
19-10-2008, 06:20
Actually that small potentially game altering "mistake" we made Malorian was perfectly legit. I issued a challenge with my lone champion, which you accepted with Krazy Face. Since you were armed with a great weapon i struck first, and luckily killing blowed your general. You just forgot to put it in the battle report.

Sorry to burst your bubble Malorian.

warlord hack'a
19-10-2008, 08:55
I wanted to start my post with: ' how did the three chariots end up in combat with the night gobs' but then thought about it for a while and figured out how. It might not hurt to say how they did it though as judging by the pictures it looks liek they should have overrun past them. But according to the math of lining up, they could have just hit the front of the night gobs by 1 cm (orcs are 5 wide so 125 mm, charios are 4 wide so 120mm, but corner to corner fightin would mean the chariots could stick out of the orc units left fron by 2 cm, which would put the edge of the leftmost chariot 1 cm overlapping with the night gobs..

You did get very luck with the fanatics though: 2 of them in the unit right? so even with 12 hits you would have to roll above average to cause 9 wounds (3+ to wound).. That taught them a lesson.

blurred
19-10-2008, 13:12
Umm. What's the deal with the terrain, or lack of it? :eyebrows:

Anyway, thanks for another good report. Maybe I should paint my third block of orc boyz. They seem to do a good job. :)

Storak
19-10-2008, 15:45
Umm. What's the deal with the terrain, or lack of it? :eyebrows:

a small board and lack of terrain benefit the O&G horde army. all important units must stay in 12 inch of the general anyway. so a situation that simply leaves enough space to spread out your orcs is possibly the best situation you can get. especially against undead. (units outside of the generals Ld range wont be able to charge anything mostly..)

whenever someone is trying to lecture you about the orcish benefit of many deployment choices, please remember the picture of this army...



You did get very luck with the fanatics though: 2 of them in the unit right? so even with 12 hits you would have to roll above average to cause 9 wounds (3+ to wound).. That taught them a lesson.

as i understand it, the chariots ended their moves on the fanatics. in this case they cause double hits (14 on average...)
i assume he released them from the back corner of the gobbo unit through the orcs to their right. (and needed to roll somewhat low, for once)

i m still waiting for someone triggering the fanatics early with a sacrificial units. happens a lot in the games i play...

Malorian
19-10-2008, 16:08
Actually that small potentially game altering "mistake" we made Malorian was perfectly legit. I issued a challenge with my lone champion, which you accepted with Krazy Face. Since you were armed with a great weapon i struck first, and luckily killing blowed your general. You just forgot to put it in the battle report.

Sorry to burst your bubble Malorian.

I don't remember you making a challenge? If you did I would have no reason to take it...

Doesn't really matter though. Would have been a tie either way.


When we play at my house we do terrain by the book. We roll off and then take turns until someone doesn't want to place any more (leaving the opponent to add one more if they wish). It really adds another level of thinking to the game as terrain placement can be key to your strategy. In this case I made sure there was a hill in each side of the board, and he placed woods (I'm not sure what his plans on this were). I then said was done and for his last piece he added the barbed wire.

If any of you haven't tried this kind of terrain deployment I'd really suggest you give it a try : )

blurred
19-10-2008, 17:41
When we play at my house we do terrain by the book. We roll off and then take turns until someone doesn't want to place any more (leaving the opponent to add one more if they wish). It really adds another level of thinking to the game as terrain placement can be key to your strategy. In this case I made sure there was a hill in each side of the board, and he placed woods (I'm not sure what his plans on this were). I then said was done and for his last piece he added the barbed wire.

So a player is free to place any terrain piece anywhere?

I must say, if this is a tactical aspect, then your opponent is not very gifted in tactical thinking. He placed a forest on his own deployment zone and a small piece of barbed wire in front of your warmachine hill. :wtf:

And yes, the open space definitely benefited orcs more.

Storak
19-10-2008, 18:15
So a player is free to place any terrain piece anywhere?

I must say, if this is a tactical aspect, then your opponent is not very gifted in tactical thinking. He placed a forest on his own deployment zone and a small piece of barbed wire in front of your warmachine hill. :wtf:

And yes, the open space definitely benefited orcs more.

when terrain is placed, you don t know which side will be yours...

blurred
19-10-2008, 18:25
Ah, then that makes slightly more sense. Slightly.

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
19-10-2008, 23:02
A good battle, Malorian. It was a shame to see so much running from your boyz, but then I guess it can't be helped. It never really made much sense to me to have orcs with the same leadership as humans. I figured because they were slightly stupider and loved to go out and actually look for battles they would be a bit braver than your average dude. Plus they're monsters. All in all, I'd say you did well.

warlord hack'a
20-10-2008, 05:33
good point storak, forgot about the double hits. Though I must say that if you let the enemy pull your fanatics early with a sacrificial unit you:
a) either have a lot fo fanatics so there is little you can do about it
b) do not know how to deploy your night gobbo units.

I play a list with 2 night gob units with in total 5 fanatics and in all the games I have played they have only been prematurely released about three times. For the rest outdeploying, shielding with an orc unit, keeing the night gob unit a bit back and protecting the block by either a wolf chariot or wolfriders nearby did the trick.

And as for a small board benefitting orcs.. Against undead and other fear causers perhaps, but these guys are not very good flankers anyway most of the time so for them a small board is also good. Against other opponents again outdeplying will be yourfriend and thena bigger board is better: if the enemy spreads out to cover his flanks then you can concentrate on one half of the board, if he concentrates on one half of the board you can put a flanking force on the empty board. But against anything fear causing you will need to time your chargers so that the flankers, when declaring, are again within 12 inch of your general, they do not need to be within 12 inch of him all the time..

Malorian
20-10-2008, 12:25
I keep my main formation tight no matter what the board size is to ensure most of it gets the Ld 9 from the general.

Feefait
20-10-2008, 13:20
Here's the issue with posting battle reports. People can be so negative. "YOu did X so you must not know how to play." "Such-and-such happened so they must not have any tactics/be a noob/ be an idiot, etc."
Bottom line is someetimes people like to try things that either are risky or just might be a lot of fun. we've placed plenty of innoportune terrain pieces because they look cool there or we want to see how the battle will react to it. and all this fighting over fanatics and ng's... man, lighten up guys.

Storak
20-10-2008, 19:19
good point storak, forgot about the double hits. Though I must say that if you let the enemy pull your fanatics early with a sacrificial unit you:
a) either have a lot fo fanatics so there is little you can do about it
b) do not know how to deploy your night gobbo units.

well, i don t know, perhaps you just might want to tell me, what special trick Malorian is using to keep his enemies from pulling his fanatics?

here (http://i534.photobucket.com/albums/ee350/Malorian/OrcsVsTk10182008/OrcsVsTK10182008001.jpg)is his deployment again...


I play a list with 2 night gob units with in total 5 fanatics and in all the games I have played they have only been prematurely released about three times. For the rest outdeploying, shielding with an orc unit, keeing the night gob unit a bit back and protecting the block by either a wolf chariot or wolfriders nearby did the trick.

well, always a bit back. that is obvious.

i simply don t see, how you will protect them from that 60 points of daemon flyers. and even if both fanatics hit the unit, there will still be one alive to cause trouble... (7 hits, 6 wounds, 4 after ward save..)


And as for a small board benefitting orcs.. Against undead and other fear causers perhaps, but these guys are not very good flankers anyway most of the time so for them a small board is also good. Against other opponents again outdeplying will be yourfriend and thena bigger board is better: if the enemy spreads out to cover his flanks then you can concentrate on one half of the board, if he concentrates on one half of the board you can put a flanking force on the empty board. But against anything fear causing you will need to time your chargers so that the flankers, when declaring, are again within 12 inch of your general, they do not need to be within 12 inch of him all the time..

the only place that the O&G army can deploy on, is the open space in the middle of the battlefield.

the 12 inch rule makes it utterly obvious to me, tat an O&G army requires a black orc general. both sides of an animosity roll can easily ruin all your plans for any planned general position.

i doubt that my opponents would let me get away with a frenzy non-black orc general... (that single surviving fury would be his death, most of the times..)

Malorian
20-10-2008, 21:06
i doubt that my opponents would let me get away with a frenzy non-black orc general... (that single surviving fury would be his death, most of the times..)

How can your opponent counter him though?

If the savage orc is on foot and in a unit on foot, then you can just charge with the unit rather than just the character since yopu declare regular charges before frenzied charges. Obviously this can draw the unit forward a bit, but with so many other units you can easily then move other units up to protect its flanks (or flee if need be).

The way I saw it the choice between black orc warboss vs a savage orc one came down to this:

-The black orc has 1 better WS, better armor, automatically gets a weapon, and can quell animosity.

-The savage orc starts off cheaper and gets an extra attack.

The thing that really pushed the savage orc for me is that the 5+ save really isn't that much better than a 6+ ward, and if I want to make use of the better save I would want to put him on a boar which makes him even more expensive. In most cases T5 3 wounds and a 6+ ward will keep you alive just fine. The quell animosity can be nice, but I make the units big enough that I can take some losses and during the waaagh he automatically passes anyway. So since I was just really looking for the Ld 9 anyway I decided to save a lot of points, and take the savage version with the extra attack.

So far I haven't regretted it, and the time he did let me down (last game) a black orc would have been killing blowed just as easily so it wouldn't have made a difference.


On the flip side however, in a tournament situation I would change him for one reason: Vampire counts. Right now I'm the only player that uses models that are ethereal so I can get away with no magical weapons. But if I was to take my orcs to a tournament I would free up the points to upgrade him to the Avian style warboss so I could deal with cairnwraiths and spirit hosts (as well as making a dash at vampires if given the chance :D )

EvC
20-10-2008, 21:38
The main point with the frenzied general is that, yes, you can avoid it by charging with the whole unit. So imagine the situation, the enemy places a throwaway trooper (Furies, Eagle, fast cav etc.) about 7" from your general's unit. Next turn you charge. The enemy dies horribly and you are forced to overrun due to frenzy. Assuming an average overrun, your general's unit is now 14" ahead of the battle-line, minus however far the rest of your troops have managed to move up. It would be very unlikely that you can then cover your general's unit from being flanked from one or both sides. Enemy goes in, flanks the unit, does one or two kills (That's all it needs) and runs it down. I've done it myself a few times and it makes me feel quite guilty ;)

It's quite incredible that while you can force an opponent's Bloodthirster to illegally overrun backwards due to non-existent Hatred/ Frenzy, none of your opponents manage to do the same (in a far simpler and more legal manner) to your own main hammer :D

But anyway, enough shooting the *****, all I can say on the battle report is great job. Sounds like an amazing game and a deserved result (I wouldn't be congratulating you if you'd won due to an illegal overguess to get the Hierophant though!). Loved the EvC-o-meter! :D

Malorian
20-10-2008, 21:51
Hmmm didn't think about the overrun... I had thought that he wouldn't have to because of the unit...

Well I'll have to double check that (I REALLY hope your wrong) otherwise that could change things...

(I think that bloodthirster mishap is going to follow me to the grave... I already feel shame rather than pride when I see my trophy...)

Gokamok
20-10-2008, 22:17
Thanks for another nice report:)

While I won't join the people claiming that one thing or the other undermines your wins, there's a clarification I'd like you to make:

At one point (I believe it's turn 3), you say that you're employing a "sneaky" tactic of overguessing with your Doom Diver in order to hit another model than the one you're aiming it? If you're deliberately overguessing in order to hit a target that is out of LOS, then it's not a sneaky tactic, but downright cheating:eek:

Ps.
From memory, I believe you played the nets vs. impact hits right.

Harwammer
20-10-2008, 22:18
Over powered orcs can't lose ;)

I'm impressed by your lack of failure so far malorian. I'm loving the story arc so far :)

Also: a unit joined by a frenzied character always fail their test to restrain pursuit (and of course over run is just a special variant on pursuit), page 78.

EvC
20-10-2008, 22:27
(I think that bloodthirster mishap is going to follow me to the grave... I already feel shame rather than pride when I see my trophy...)

Lol really you shouldn't feel bad about it, it was your opponent telling you his BT had hatred- not your fault that you took his word for it! Just surprising that people haven't thought to take advantage of you in similar ways :)

Storak
21-10-2008, 05:28
How can your opponent counter him though?

If the savage orc is on foot and in a unit on foot, then you can just charge with the unit rather than just the character since yopu declare regular charges before frenzied charges. Obviously this can draw the unit forward a bit, but with so many other units you can easily then move other units up to protect its flanks (or flee if need be)

the single fury surviving the fanatic release could be used to badly align your unit (just in case it survives the combat..) or to pull your general from the unit, if you blocked your wheeling by tight deployment. (we have been playing in the past with a rule that allows your opponent to second guess "illegal" guesses, mostly to prevent overshooting. but this would prevent the declaration of impossible charges as well and make it eassier to pull the general from his unt...)

btw, even being forced to make a failed charge move every turn against fast cav would hurt your battles significantly..

Asfaloth
21-10-2008, 09:17
I liked the reports and am looking forward to the next.

I can't imagine there's anyone out there who doesn't make rule faults once in a while.

The recent games were against decent but not overpowered armies and da Orcs showed their worth. Now comes hopefully the time of the cheesefest lists.

warlord hack'a
21-10-2008, 10:03
now correct me if I am wrong BUT:

1) a snot block of 2 bases, positioned in front of your general (blocking most of his LOS) will stop you from bering charged pulled. This combined with loads of other useful uses of this unit I suggest you take one or 2 (yes, I'm still crusading for recognition of the snots as a viable unit choice).
2) Am not sure about this at all (will look it up at home) but: normal charges are declared before frenzied charges. So for example Malorian could declare a charge with his 14" charge range boar chariot or his 18" chargerange wolf riders at the enemy unit trying to pull his frenzied general. Now when the whole unit would be frenzied then if the enemy decides to flee then the frenzied unit does not have to declare as at the moment of declaration the enemy will have fled out of range (as the flee is worked out immediately after declaring it, not sure if this happens though in between the declaring normal charges and measuring for frenzied charges). Of course in the current setup with frenzied general in normal unit you need to declare with the whole unit in the normal phase as only the general is frenzied so for Malorian this will not help. And of course if the enemy does not flee then you still have to charge with the frenzied guys and subsequently overrun, but at least you also have a 3d6 overrun of either your wolf boys or the chariot, giving you either a hit on the enemy forces or at least hamper their movement/prevent them from frontally charging (and as a added benefit the wolfies and chariot can flee as a charge reaction, which will make the enemy perhaps fail their charge, giving you a countercharge option with your frenzied unit, which the enemy can then flee from again etc. etc.)

The enemy might have set up a flank charge, but by then they are quite close to your aforementioned chariot: Malorian's battleline usually has the orc chariot, the general's unit and the night gobbo's (with troll in front) qute close to each other. Now all he has to do to prevent his fanatics being pulled by an enemy flier unit is put his gobbo unit a smidgen more than 4 inch behind the 12" deployment line. Since the troll is in front this means leaving only 1 or 2 inch between the back of the troll and the nigh gob unit. Thus enemy fliers can not on turn 1 pull fanatics as they are out of reach, and I now even ignore the fact that orcs will outdeploy so the fliers will most likely not be directly opposite the night gobs. But even if they are the 12" troll charge range and the 14" chariot charge range will keep the fliers at bay.

But the object of dicussion was pulling the frenzied guys, so here we go:

the danger with a frenzied unit is that they will be chargepulled, then have to overrun and thus end up ahead of the battleline and then the enemy will hit with a flanking force. Now taking Malorian's battleline pulling the unit sideways is not going to work due to wheeling restraints (his units are really close together). And even if it works then he will also pursue sideways and thus the distance between this unit and his battleline will be smaller than when he would run straight ahead. Also do not forget that REAL flank exposure is caused by the charging unit aligning with the enemy unit. However, since flyers are skirmishing they align to the charging unit, so no extra wheeling for the orcs.. This is why a fast cav unit is better as a sacrificial unit if you want to bait the savaged orcs.

But like I said I think sideways pulling can be minimized, still if the enemy uses a fast cav unit aligned at 45 degrees angle then the orc unit is in trouble. Which is why screening is important and would be my number 1 advise against enemy armies deploying fast cav or fliers or scouts.

so let's look at forward pulling: enemy fliers landing within 8 inch of your orc unit with frenzied general. You then charge, they hold, you slaughter them and overrun. This whole move will take you 7" (to be within the 8 inch chargerange the fliers have to move with a certain safety margin) + 2d6 inch forward, so between 9 and 19". Now if you roll 2 on the 2d6 then you are only 1 inch ahead of the rest of your infantry, so no problems there. If you roll 12 then you are screwed but the enemy perhaps also as maybe you will hit something on their side (small change though).

But let's assume the average pursue roll of 7 inch. This will let you unit move 14 inch forward in total. For the enemy to hit your flank they have to be in your flank zone, which can put them in danger of getting charged by either your chariot or some of your fast cav. But of course with some perfect manouvering and positioning the enemy can put one of his units so that they do get a flank charge but are out of chargerange of your faster units. This however is much more difficult than it might seem. On to trick 2: the fanatics and the troll.

As the troll is next to the generals unit it can move forward 12 inch (unless the fliers also marchblock the troll but that will put them more to the side of the orc unit (who can not wheel a lot) thus increasing the chance of them declaring a charge and then failing it..), unless it fails it's stupidity roll (1/6th chance). Assuming the average of 14 inch for the general's unit the troll is very well capable of covering the flank of the orc unit, and then instead of hitting the flank of your generals unit in the enemy turn they will hit the flank of your generals unit in your turn (if they manage to chew through the troll), giving you the perfect opportunity to hit them in their now exposed flank with all you have got.

In the meantime the night gob unit is 18 inch behind the orc unit, if they then also march they will be 10 inch behind the front of the orcs. Any enemy unit hitting the flank of the orcs will first have to go through the fanatic threat range and if the fanatics being released roll high enough (depending on the width of the enemy unit 5 or 6 inch might be enough) then most likely the enemy will land on them as well.

Now all you need to do is protect the other flank of your general's unit in a similar fashion.. ;-). Perhaps by using a fast cav unit in the same manner as the troll unit..

Now I am not saying that hindering this unit with the general is impossible, or even that flank charing them is not possible. I am just trying to illustrate that it is by far not as straight forward as some would like us to believe..

warlord hack'a
21-10-2008, 10:05
so certainly no "even being forced to make a failed charge move every turn against fast cav would hurt your battles significantly.." as your charitos or fast cav will be able to take out the enemy fast cav as you will most likely (due to the cheapness of the unit) have more of those units.

Storak
21-10-2008, 11:40
fleeing happens in the compulsory phase. frenzy at then end of the declare charges phase.

so a "flee" reaction will not prevent frenzied troops from charging.

the tight deployment will allow an enemy, to pull him from the unit. and quite a lot of armies have the firepower to rather easily kill a basically unarmored orc with 3 wounds.

while there is plenty of true stuff in the rest of what you wrote, i think that you assume some rather useless enemy, certain rule interpretations and actions that Malorian simply hasn t taken so far.

why not expect a dragon, char+chariot or steamtank hitting the flank of the unit?

i am just surprised, that nobody pulled him away so far.

and i definitely think that forcing a failed charge on an early turn would handicap his army. together with animosity it completely ruins the orcish battleline.

ps: you are right about skirmishers and aligning for combat.

warlord hack'a
21-10-2008, 11:55
I also think that forcing a failed charge will hamper the orc line a bit (as it would any other army with infantry blocks), but I also think that O&G are one of the armies with the best counters versus repeated chargepulling: you might pull it ofof once but then your fast cav is gone due to an overrun by either an orc chariot or some gobbo fast cav.

And I never assume a useless enemy, but sine I only know the O&G force at hand as a given I can not go into detail about what the enemy might do specifically. I only oppose general talk about how easy it is to let said unit charge and overrun and then hitting it in the flank. And as for pulling the frenzied character out of a unit, this sure can happen, which is why i suggest he takes a unit of svg orcs, or he can prevent this still by declaring a charge with the normal block, you never know if you will be in range or not with the block, so hard to judge..

but bottom line, despite all my nice blabla, is tha having a frenzied general in a no frienzied unti is very tricky, having a frenzied or non frenzied general in a frenzied unit slightly less so and in both case screening them (eg with a snot block) is a VERY wise option. Not doing so can cause no end of troubles (e.g. when you DO roll high for your overrun move, or your troll or other support unit does fail their stupidity/animosity test..

One last tip to those who do want to have a frenzied general in a unit of normal orcs: since your characters are deployed last and since O&G will most likely outdeploy the enemy, you can always choose to put your general in another infantry unit shoudl the one you had in mind be in a position where it can easily be chargepulled. Yes this will screw up your leadership bubble, but it's better than being overrun by a stemtank in the flank..

Malorian
23-10-2008, 05:28
Battle 5: Holding back the black tide

So this battle was for the battle of Warseeria but we didn't use any extra rules. Just 3000 vs 3000 goodness :D


"Wat we do'in in Warseeria?"

Orko Morko looked around and scratched his head, "I hav no clu... but I see der r blakk elf thiings to kill so it kan't be all bad."

"We've obviously been sucked into some alternate dimension... although it makes no rational sense what so ever..." The great shaman Storak had been upset since they had landed in the strange land. Something about Orcs running an empire and being at the top of the food chain really got under his skin.

"Oh Storak, yew an yer krazy ideas.."

Storak threw his arms in the air, "I mean really! How does it make any sense at all. what else could happen that would make it even more far fetched?"

"Waaagh!!!" All eyes turned as a mob of black orcs marched towards them and at the lead was none other than Grimgor Ironhide himself. "Time we kill elves now?"

Storak's jaw dropped and Morko Orko just smiled...


My list: (Ok, I should say now that this is not the 3000 point list I would want to take but being limited by models (unless I wanted to take hundreds of night goblins with spears) I went with this. The fact that Avian told me it was a horrible idea didn't give me much confidence...)

(Morko Orko) Black orc warboss w/ akrit axe, kick'n boots, best boss'at, heavy armor, shield, boar *general*
Grimgor Ironhide
(Bash'm) Black orc big boss w/ heavy armor, chariot
(Big Rokk) Black orc BSB w/ spirit totem, heavy armor, boar
(Zip Blade) Goblin big boss w/ wolf, one hit wunda, light armor, shield
(Welpsly) Night goblin shaman w/ staff of sneaky stealing

25 boyz w/ shields, banner
25 boyz w/ shields, banner
25 boyz w/ shields, banner
25 boyz w/ shields, banner
27 night goblins w/ 2 fanatics, nets, banner
6 wolf riders w/ bows, spears, musician, banner
5 wolf riders w/ bows, spears, musician
5 spider riders w/ musician

Orc chariot
Orc chariot
2 spear chukkas
2 spear chukkas
24 black orcs w/ musician, banner, waaagh banner

Doom diver
Troll

(So basically I trade Krazyface (Gork rest his soul) for Morko Orko, add a black orc in a chariot, and grimgor in an overly huge unit of black orcs and that the jump to 3000)


His list: (As far as I know)

Dreadlord w/ executioners axe, heavy armor, cloak
Lvl 4 mage w/ horse, black staff, and probably some dispell scrolls
Death hag w/ cauldron of blood
Lvl 2 mage w/ dagger
Lvl 2 mage w/ familiar

20 spearmen w/ full command
10 crossbowmen w/ shields
10 crossbowmen w/ shields
10 dark riders w/ full command

20 Witch elves w/ full command
20 Witch elves w/ full command
20 black guard w/ full command including Kouran, hag graef
10 mengil manflayers

Hydra
RBT


The board was 6X4 and there was a hill at the back of each of our deployment zones, then there was a hill to his right and a wood to his left, and I had a wood to my right and some hedges to my left.

I deployed the large wolf unit w/ Zip Blade to the left of the hedges and the spiders behind them. Then from left to right I had: Bash'm, block, chariot, block w. Morko, night goblins w/ Big Rokk and troll in front, block, chariot, Grimgor and da Immortulz, Welpsly was in the trees and then there was a block to the right of the trees and finally the other unit of wolves. The warmachines were on the hill.

He deployed the RBT and the crossbowmen on the hill. The dark riders and lord mage were on the left flank, the familiar mage was in the trees with the Manflayers, then to the right of the woods there was: spearmen w/ dagger mage, witch elves, black guard w/ dreadlord and cauldron behind, witch elves, and finally the hydra on the right flank.

I won the roll for first turn.


Post-game thoughts: I'd never been against the cauldron before and he had already warned me how deadly his lord was (more braging than warning really). My plan was to delay the black guard and just smash it with warmachines and fanatics. Grimgor should be able to take on the hydra and my usual tactics should work on the witchelves (although since they would be stubborn it would be a drawn out fight). I had though my fast cav could take on his on the left flank, but the scouting manflayers changes that... now I would just try to stall them.


Turn 1 Orcs:

Animosity saw Morko having to kill 3 orcs to keep them in line, the block right of the night goblins squabble. Both the block and the wolves on the right flank moved up a bit. I passed my stupidity and ran up followed by most of the line. The spiders moved up to the hedges. Bash'm moved up a bit. The block on the right started around the woods and the right wolves run up behind his hill on the right. Doom diver scattered hopelessly but the spear chukkas killed 5 black guard.

Turn 1 DE:

Dark riders moved up and widened to be 11 wide, and the manflayers ran out to the front of the forest (trying to bait my chariot). His main line moved up as fast as it could and the hydra moved to the right and peaked over the hill at the wolve riders. His magic phase is shut down with the aid of a miscast doing a wound to his dagger mage. The RBT failed to would Bash'm's chariot and the crossbowmen kill a couple of orcs from Morko's unit. The hydra flames one wolf rider. (He made the left unit of witch elves ASF, which we later learned he could not do)

*At this point it was obvious there would be no helping it and there would just be a big fight in the center right away. I planned to move the troll in front of the black guard, forcing them to charge and run up (giving me a great shot with my warmachines) while my blocks grinded down his. But lets see what happens...*

Turn 2 Orcs:

I declare the Waaagh! and this makes Bash'm run up, Morko's unit run up, the unit that squabbled last turn did again and lost 4 models, Grimgor runs up and gets a great view at the flank of the right witch elves, and the block on the right flank squabbles and losses 3 orcs. The troll fails it's stupidity and stumbles into the black guard (noooo!). Zip Blade and the spiders declare a charge on his dark riders but the spiders fail their panic. Bash'm charges the manflayers and they flee, getting away but I don't hit the forest. The left chariot and Morko's unit charges the left witch elves and in lining up Morko is forced to touch his dreadlord and combine the combats. The right chariot hits the front of the right witch elves while Grimgor hits the flank. The left block then moves up to support Bash'm. The night goblins move up and send the fanatics through the black guard killing 6 more. The right wolf riders move to the hydra's flank. The doom diver hits the spearmen and kills 1. Three of the spear chukkas hit the hydra, all thre wound, and he mades all three regeneration saves. Then the four wolf riders give it a try and take a wound off the hydra with an arrow (go figure). In combat Zip Blade uses the one hit wunda and in total I kill... 1 dark rider (crap). In return he kills one wolf (he forgot to use hatred) and I flee but get away. The dark riders pursue into the spider riders. The right charot hits and kills 4 witches, and Grimgor and his boyz kill a bunch more. Even though they are stubborn they still break and they are caught as my chariot hits into the flank of the black guard. In that combat the chariots kill 4 witches and 4 black guard. His dreadlord makes a challenge and Morko declines and goes to the back. Kouran does a wound to the troll and then the troll kills him. The dreadlord kills 3 orcs and then the chariot wipes out the rest of the black guard. The ASF witch elves kill 1 orc, and then 4 of their own die. The dreadlord fails his Ld test and is ran down by the troll and chariot. The troll runs over a fanatic (losing another wound) and runs into the cauldron.

*So basically that was a really crazy turn which started bad for me but got REALLY bad for him. I now fully controlled the center and fully expected him to quit, but he wanted to play on to the end, which was great to hear.*

Turn 2 DE:

Manflayers fail to rally and run to the edge of the board (but not off). The hydra moved to thr flank of the Immortulz (but he made sure to be within 6 inches of the wolves). In the magic phase he gets off black horror and kills 16 of the orcs in the left block (who pass their panic). In the shooting phase the RBT missed the Immortalz but the hydra killed 6. Crossbowmen brought the left block down to 5 (I passed panic) and kill 2 more Immortulz. In combat three spider riders are killed but the last two manage to do two wounds to his lord mage. I flee and am caught, he tried to overrun into my fleeing wolves but they get away and run off the board. His witch elves kill a few orcs and I kill some witch elves but he is stuborn and holds. The troll kills one hag before getting cut down (they had extra attacks).

Turn 3 Orcs:

Animosity makes me kill 1 night goblin. The right wolf riders fail their terror and run off the board. Both fanatics move to the right of the Cauldron. Bash'm charges the spearmen. The right chariot charges the right crossbowmen, taking no damage from stand and shoot. The Immortulz turn to face the hydra and the right block starts moving up to support. The block that had kept squabbling reforms to guard the warmachines. The night goblins move toward the cauldron. The unit of five orcs whel to face the trees. The doom diver kills 1 dark rider while 2 spear chukkas miss their flank. The other two spear chukkas do nothing to the hydra. In combat Bash'm's chariot kills 6 spearmen and he kills the mage. The unit breaks and is ran down (causing the familiar mage in the woods to panic and run out of the trees to the left). The witch elves and orcs take some losses but the witch elves break and are ran down. The chariot smashed the crossbowmen and runs off the board while the other unit of spearmen fail their panic and run to the left.

Turn 3 DE:

The manflayers and crossbowmen rally, but the mage keeps running to nearly the edge of the board. The dark riders move out to face the warmachine line and setup for a charge next turn. The hyrda moves to the Immortulz flank (but still in LOS). In the magic phase he suffers a miscast letting me cast a free spell (a tree is blasted to bits), and in the shooting phase the RBT misses the Immortulz again but the hydra kills 4.

Turn 4 Orcs:

Animosity does nothing. Bah'm charges the manflayers, the left chariot and Morko's unit declare charges against the crossbowmen but then then the fanatic moves over doing nothing to the cauldron, killing 3 orcs and doing a wound to the chariot (the other fanatic kills itself). The Immortulz charge the hydra. The night goblins want to charge the cauldron but I fail my fear test. the chariot comes back on and faces the RBT. The five orcs move in on the fleeing mage, the right block moves to be about 7 inches from the hydra's flank, and the unit guarding the warmachines moves up so that if the warmachine crew flee I can hit the dark rider's flank. The doom diver scatters wide and all four spear chukkas miss the dark riders. In combat Bash'm issues a challenge with Mengil takes, and I kill him and run down the unit. Morko loses two orcs to stand and shoot but then him and the chariot crush them and both run off the board. Grimgor does two wounds to the hydra and a black orc kills a handler, but then the hydra kills 4 black orcs and holds.

Turn 4 DE:

The mage rallies. Dark riders move to the orcs flank. Cauldron moves back. In the magic phase the orcs defending the warmachiens get hit by black horror and lose 12 orcs who fail their panic and run back to be just in front of the doom diver. The rallying mage kills 4 of the five orcs leaving just the banner bearer who rolls double 1s for his panic. In combat Grimgor makes short work of the hydra.

Turn 5 Orcs:

animosity does nothing. The orcs rally. The chariot charges into the RBT and Bash'm and the other chariot coming back on the board start heading towards the familiar mage. Morko comes back on. Grimgor turns to face the center as does the right block. In the shooting phase the doom diver kills 4 dark riders (they pass their panic) and all the spear chukkas miss again. The RBT crew are killed by the chariot.

Turn 5 DE:

The dark riders want to charge the warmachines but wouldn't be able to wheel around the block. They move to their right instead facing the Immortulz. The familiar mage runs towards the hedges and tries to blast Bash'm with magic but only miscasts and takes a wound. The lord get black horror off with irresistable force and kills 12 of the orcs from the right block (who pass their panic).

Turn 6 Orcs:

Animosity makes the block by the warmachines squabble. Bash'm charges the mage and she flees and gets away. The night goblins charge the cauldron. Of all the warmachines only a spear chukka kills a single dark rider. In combat Big Rokk makes a challenge which his death hag accepts (they have extra attack). Big Rokk misses with everything but at least his boar does a wound, and takes no damage back. The had kills a night goblin but then they break and I run them down.

Turn 6 DE:

The mage rallies and in the magic phase she gets off bladewind on Bash'm but I make all four saves. The lord gets off black horror with irresitable force again but this time only kills 4 orcs from the right block and they again pass their panic.

Victory for the Orcs! (4-0-1)


When Morko got back to the camp, Storak actually seemed... pleased...

"Wow that dark elve army got got torn apart!"

Covered in blood Grimgor walked smiling to himself, "Hey, how do ya lik ma new 'at?" From behind his back Grimgor pulled out oe of the hydra's heads and put it on his own. Storak saw this and had to hold in a laugh.

The great shaman walked over to the legend all in smiles "I've got to say you are amazingly powerful. The way you killed that hydra was nothing short of da koolist..." Suddenly Storak stopped cold and quickly jogged off.

Big Rokk elbowed Morko in the side, "Das was odd, fur a sekond der he was tak'n normal..."


Off in some near by woods the great shaman had summoned forth a deamon and was down on hands and knees. "Forgive me Lord Tnemanruot Scitsitats, I have failed you. I beg of you, please forgive me and I will find a way to bring Morko down..."

The glowing pink deamon hovered above the kneeling shaman and gave it some thought. "Silence! Don't think for a second I missed that 'slip' of yours where you almost let your orc nature get the best of you. However, keeping in mind you past loyalty, I have decided to let you live... but mark my words, if you can not find a way to kill him I will find someone else who will!" And with that his body faded and he returned to the warp to huddle in front of his deamonic computer and calculate more useless tournament statistics...


Post-game thoughts: I think that makes up for my horrible leadership tests last battle ;) After that extremely lucky second turn it was really over and all I had to do ws mop things up. The main thing I learned from this battle is once again just how great those boar chariots are. The Bash'm setup also did very well and made back its points a couple tmies over. Those mages still gave me a lot of trouble though. In these larger games I'll have to take a scroll or two because black horror just destroys my large blocks.

Anyway thank you for reading.

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
23-10-2008, 06:52
Wow Mal, those chariots are useful. What if you threw one of your characters into one? I can't believe how well and truly you smashed the crap out of those Dark Elves. Excellent win. Those mages were pretty nuts, I had no idea the Dark Elves magic was so powerful. I guess his army had to do something right. Anyway, great report, congratulations on an excellent win, and I can't wait to see you get the big 20!

Embalmed
23-10-2008, 07:46
Go Morko! Nice batrep :) Dang it if you haven't inspired me to build an OnG army.

Have to say that dark horror seems to make good on it's name and the Hydra is a tough nut, but the green tide won the day!

SevenSins
23-10-2008, 11:26
Thats actually close to a 2nd turn win, I don't see that often in fantasy (thankfull your opponent didn't surrender but fought on like any blood-crazed pointy-ear should)!

Golden Lion
23-10-2008, 12:16
Really nice reports to read and follow Malorian. That last battle looked challenging with all that elite infantry, magic and shooting facing you. Well done pulling that one off. I'm impressed with your succes and I like your army. Keep it up!

GuyLeCheval
23-10-2008, 12:28
The first turn you fought the hydra with GI you did only do 2 wounds?
That must have been bad luck with your Ws8 S7 6A
Anyway, nice report. the DE army was one I wouldn't like to face, but you made short work of it. Congratulations.

Vile Druchii
23-10-2008, 12:37
A very impressive win against the Dark Elves! Although everything seemed to be going so incredibly bad for him! (How many failed stubborn leadership tests?!) It was still a good report, but one I wish was more hard fought. You're going some way to proving the the Orcs still have what it takes to be competitive, but wasn't one of your own stipulations that you wouldn't use characters?

Lord of Nonsensical Crap
23-10-2008, 13:05
Well done! It's great to see Orcs winning by doing what they do best-- absolutely krumping the opposition in close combat (no need for all that silly "magic," "shooting" and "lotsa fanatics" when you have plenty of choppas). I hope we wind up seeing more of the dreaded Lord Tnemanruot Scitsitats in future reps.

blackjack
23-10-2008, 14:17
Well done! Your list says 4-0-1 when was your loss? I don't think I saw it posted here.

Malorian
23-10-2008, 14:19
You're going some way to proving the the Orcs still have what it takes to be competitive, but wasn't one of your own stipulations that you wouldn't use characters?

I was hoping not to have to resort to special characters, but I just needed to fill points to get to 3000.

That being said Grimgor is absolutely devestating on the field and would actually be great against deamons. (You wanna use skulltaker and the masque? Ok, I've got Grimgor :evilgrin: )


Edit: Blackjack, I post my results in wins-losses-ties.

blurred
23-10-2008, 14:21
Congrats on your win, once again. :) Although, I have a feeling your army has not been put to a proper test yet.

What was the terrain like this time? From your description it seems there was a huge opening in the centre just like in your last game.

EvC
23-10-2008, 14:48
Another great report and win, nice one again! As I've often said, all the "Stubborn" rule is good for is making units fail their break tests much more reliably :D (I myself got a unit of White Lions to break yesterday, took three turns of combat but was worth it when Queen Lahamas routed them!)

If there was open terrain in the middle that's not a bad thing, if you use the rules for terrain placement (And as mentioned earlier Malorian does) then the centre is kept open. It's up to the Dark Elf player to do something about it!


The first turn you fought the hydra with GI you did only do 2 wounds?
That must have been bad luck with your Ws8 S7 6A


Well, average luck, which is probably bad luck as far as Malorian's dice are concerned. 6 attacks = 4-6 hits (Hatred on Grimgor?), assume 4-5 wounds, 2 regened, so 2 wounds is about right :)

GuyLeCheval
23-10-2008, 15:01
Well, I thought Grimgor has hates everyone. But if he doesn't, than it's on average, yes.

Embalmed
23-10-2008, 15:22
Well, I thought Grimgor has hates everyone. But if he doesn't, than it's on average, yes.

He does, so on the first round he hits 8 out of 9 times. I thought he had 7 attacks tho :confused: anyway 2 wounds on a hydra isn't awfully unlucky.

Murgel
23-10-2008, 17:38
Another great read! You've inspired me to have a go with the greenies.



The night goblins want to charge the cauldron but I fail my fear test.

Hmm... The cauldron causes terror. Did they already take a terror test?

You didn't report where he used the cauldron's ability to give +1 A, Killing blow or a 5+ ward save to any unit within 24" either... He DID use it, right? :P

Malorian
23-10-2008, 18:38
Murgel: It causes terror? Really? He never made me make any tests so I'm thinking he didn't even know (I took a fear test because it was goblins charging elves).

He did use it every turn but very quickly he didn't even have any units to use it on other than the cauldron itself. We talked about it after and agreed that the cauldron really doesn't seem worth it. It's nice to get killing blow or an extra attack, but it's not worth the cost of the deathhag and the cauldron. If you want extra combat punch just spend it on assassins. If you are using it to be stubborn then roll better than he did ;)

PopeAlexanderVI
23-10-2008, 18:51
Only 1 Hydra and no other beasts at 3k? Witch Elves? He took a pretty soft list. Malorian is a really good player and everything but had he taken a good list he definitely should have been able to easily win.

The stuff he did bring that was good (the Hydra and the Supreme Sorc.) messed up a huge amount of stuff. Black horror ruins S3 orc blocs. Had he taken 3 hydras and 2 Supreme Sorcerors (or a Manticore/dragon lord) he would have done much better. Orcs can't handle all those terror/panic tests.

He had bad luck, but he also took a way sub-optimal list.

Gazak Blacktoof
23-10-2008, 19:21
I don't think the dark elf list is that bad, though the large unit of dark riders with full command is a bit of an oddity. The dark elf list certainly isn't the best you can get from the book whilst Malorian's avoids the worst units in the list but this series of battles appears to be an attempt to "prove" that you can field a competent list from the book and that isn't the same as proving all of the choices are good.

The outcome of this battle appears to have came down to the first few turns where things went badly for the dark elves very quickly and that appears to be down to luck and presumably poor positioning by the dark elf army. A combat involving grimgor with his immortulz and a chariot was only ever going to result in lots of dead elves.

Had the dark elf player positioned anything to take advantage of the orc units if they stalled when they charged the stubborn elves?

EDIT: It would be nice to have seen a bit of baiting and redirection of charges from the dark elf player to break up the greenskin battle line.

Malorian
23-10-2008, 19:45
Well he had the spearmen on one flank and the hydra on the other, but I think his basic plan was that the black guard and witch elves (along with the super lord and backed up by the cauldron) would just slowly chew me down and win in the end.

If it wasn't for the waaagh the black orcs wouldn't have been on the flank, and then things just fell apart for him from there.

Gazak Blacktoof
23-10-2008, 20:27
Yeah getting charged by grimgor obviously wasn't part of the dark elf plan.

As for holding up the orcs I didn't see a BSB in the dark elf list. Trusting to stubborn leadership without a re-roll for break tests is often very dangerous.

There also weren't many balck guard left by the time the orcs hit.

Its very difficult to judge the ebb and flow of a game from a bet rep. Did it feel like the dark elf plan was solid? Would you attribute your win to (luck/ skill/ good deployment/ bad dark elf deployment/ good/ bad movement etc)?

Malorian
23-10-2008, 21:01
You know, I don't know if he even has a BSB model... his armies were magic/shooty heavy for so long and it's only no he is giving combat a try.

Well luck played a huge part, but if luck was average I should have taken out his dark riders and mage lord with my wolve riders... In the end I I'm pretty sure I would have won simply because I out numbered him so badly. The orcs can get so many orc blocks and spearchukkas for so cheap that it's hard to go elite against them.

One of these days I also want to try a magic heavy list, but I'll have to wait until Morko can win over Storak enough for him to lead his army ;)

Shimmergloom
23-10-2008, 21:34
Congrats on your win, once again. :) Although, I have a feeling your army has not been put to a proper test yet.

What was the terrain like this time? From your description it seems there was a huge opening in the centre just like in your last game.

The 7th rules say you don't place terrain within 12" of the center. It was an absolutely needed rule, to keep the skirmish-hammer to a minimum.

About 90% of the games vs WE, Beasts and Dwarfs had the middle of the table filled with difficult terrain making the games over before they started.

blurred
24-10-2008, 10:50
About 90% of the games vs WE, Beasts and Dwarfs had the middle of the table filled with difficult terrain making the games over before they started.

And that's why I don't like the way Malorian and his friends place terrain. It always gives the terrain players need (warmachine hill etc.)

Also, don't you think it would be quite easy for the WE player to just place a lot of forests to the sides and then move them to the centre via spells?

Embalmed
24-10-2008, 11:05
And that's why I don't like the way Malorian and his friends place terrain. It always gives the terrain players need (warmachine hill etc.)

Also, don't you think it would be quite easy for the WE player to just place a lot of forests to the sides and then move them to the centre via spells?

I think it's still the better of two evils, terrain placement is going to have a big impact on the game, better then make it a part of the tactical challenge than to make it effectively random or decided by a third party, coz otherwise a significant victory can be gained undeservedly by one of the players before the battle even begins.

EvC
24-10-2008, 13:13
I don't understand the point about the Cauldron- it's done amazing things when I've played against one. Giving any one unit within 24" a 5+ ward, or additional attacks, etc. makes it a very tough customer. It takes a bit of getting used to (especially as it really needs to be moved up along with the army every turn) but with a half-decent general it can make or break the army.

Definitely should have put a BSB on his Cauldron Hag as well- he has two units of Witch Elves with (un-necessary) full command, it's simplicity itself to use the standard bearer from one of those units as his BSB Hag. Recommend to him that he does that next time, he won't be sorry :)


Also, don't you think it would be quite easy for the WE player to just place a lot of forests to the sides and then move them to the centre via spells?

Remember that the middle of the battlefield will be clogged up with Orcs pretty rapidly, that Malorian has plenty of dispel dice, and that his regular Wood Elf opponent does not seem to know how to use the Lore of Athel Loren effectively. So when they play it by the book, the centre stays freed up. However a bit more tactical placement on his opponents' part - e.g. a forest in the centre of each deployment zone would really mix things up!

Harwammer
24-10-2008, 14:19
And that's why I don't like the way Malorian and his friends place terrain. It always gives the terrain players need (warmachine hill etc.)

Also, don't you think it would be quite easy for the WE player to just place a lot of forests to the sides and then move them to the centre via spells?

Whereas that is why I like it. The generals pick a battlefield on their own terms.

Besides, if you don't like how terrain is placed you can always counterplace with your deploys (e.g. if you anticipate your opponent putting warmachines on a hill, block the line of sight by placing a forest). The book recommends 4 to 6 terrain on a 6x4 table, so this is very doable.

warlord hack'a
24-10-2008, 14:58
am I missing something or does it not work like this:

1) the hag plus retinue on the cauldron are frenzied
2) frenzied buggers need to charge enemy in chargereach
3) so anithing within 10 inch would force the hag to leave the cauldron behind and charge, or perhaps charge with the cualdron?

Or are they chained to this thing?

Gazak Blacktoof
24-10-2008, 15:10
It counts as a warmachine and crew so it can't charge even though frenzied. The rules for it also stipulate that the attendants will not pursue and abandon the cauldron.

Malorian
24-10-2008, 15:38
However a bit more tactical placement on his opponents' part - e.g. a forest in the centre of each deployment zone would really mix things up!

Hmmm, that wouldn't be nice at all... I like it :evilgrin:

It would really only slow me down for a single turn however as my split force would have to spend the first turn moving up and to the center to bring them back together, but still that's a turn lost...


I'm really surprised that not more of you are doing this. I mean it tells you to do it right there in the rule book... and again I would really suggest that anyone who hasn't tried it, should give it a try.

EvC
24-10-2008, 15:45
One oddity, I believe, is that if an enemy approaches to precisely 1" from the warmachine, they can then charge them as they won't count as being more than 1" from the Cauldron :D

But yeah, slow you down for a turn and splitting your deployment will mean more of your army will be away from your general's precious LD9. Which is a good start if people are struggling to challenge you :D

Fredmans
24-10-2008, 18:07
I'm really surprised that not more of you are doing this. I mean it tells you to do it right there in the rule book... and again I would really suggest that anyone who hasn't tried it, should give it a try.

We do it as well. If you, yourself, are responsible for 25-75% of the terrain it is much harder to blame the loss on poor terrain. It becomes a "game within the game", too.

Btw, congratulations on another win.

/Fredmans

eagletsi1
24-10-2008, 18:30
Great Reports Mal.

Looking forward to the next one.

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
24-10-2008, 19:25
My friends and I also place terrain as the rulebook states. I've tried to create more terrain so that we don't always use hills, however the Dwarf player will almost always pick the hill as his first piece for his war machines. I can't say I blame him, since Dwarfs would look for a piece of high ground to set up their equipment on.

Shimmergloom
24-10-2008, 22:16
We place terrain where we each roll and choose D3+1 pieces of terrain.

No terrain may initally be placed within 12" of the center of the table.

After all terrain is placed we scatter the terrain(WE extra woods are not scattered and are placed after scatters). This is where things get random, cause some play 2D6 scatters and some want to do 3d6 scatters and some count HITS as the terrain stays stationary and some that you use the arrow to keep scattering it. And some want terrain to bounce off the table edges and some do not. So there's no real agreement on how to place terrain completely.

But at least by scattering you keep it interesting. You can't count on the table being clear, but at the same time it should not be cluttered full of woods. You also can't count on hills staying where you put them. Nor can you count on your 'tactic' of putting a wood in front of a hill to block its LOS as working either.

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
24-10-2008, 22:37
We place terrain where we each roll and choose D3+1 pieces of terrain.

No terrain may initally be placed within 12" of the center of the table.

After all terrain is placed we scatter the terrain(WE extra woods are not scattered and are placed after scatters). This is where things get random, cause some play 2D6 scatters and some want to do 3d6 scatters and some count HITS as the terrain stays stationary and some that you use the arrow to keep scattering it. And some want terrain to bounce off the table edges and some do not. So there's no real agreement on how to place terrain completely.

But at least by scattering you keep it interesting. You can't count on the table being clear, but at the same time it should not be cluttered full of woods. You also can't count on hills staying where you put them. Nor can you count on your 'tactic' of putting a wood in front of a hill to block its LOS as working either.

Well, that certainly is random, but I'm not sure if it's something I'd want to do all the time. You normally don't just show up to a battle and have it wherever. Either one or both sides scopes out the terrain for possible advantages.

Shimmergloom
24-10-2008, 22:47
In my experience without these rules, it just leads to endless boring battles where every beast and WE player loads up woods exactly where they want them, empire and dwarfs always have plenty of hills and hordes always have empty plains where they do not worry about pesky things like woods or marshes.

You don't pay points for terrain so it's pretty unfair that some armies get such hugh advantages from a piece or terrain or 2 while others get huge disadvantages.

Games should not be over after setup, in games against 2 equal opponents.

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
25-10-2008, 02:31
In my experience without these rules, it just leads to endless boring battles where every beast and WE player loads up woods exactly where they want them, empire and dwarfs always have plenty of hills and hordes always have empty plains where they do not worry about pesky things like woods or marshes.

You don't pay points for terrain so it's pretty unfair that some armies get such hugh advantages from a piece or terrain or 2 while others get huge disadvantages.

Games should not be over after setup, in games against 2 equal opponents.

Well, that's why I play with my friends, so that we're all interested in having a competitive but fun game. I think it'd be a good set up for tournaments, or having a third party set it up for you. But if you can't trust the people you play with to not be dicks during setup, then I feel bad for your games.

Shimmergloom
25-10-2008, 02:51
Friendship doesn't mean you don't want to win.

I use to play with my one of my best friends on a weekly basis. He plays lizzies. He thinks nothing of taking a 12x12 inch lake and placing it just outside of 12" of the middle of the table(in 6th I had to hope I could place terrain first and slap a hill in the center of the table just to block the lake being placed there).

It's perfectly legal. Which is the problem. Just like gunlines are legal, daemons are legal and a myriad of other broken and unfair builds are legal.

This is why abusive rules are a problem in this game. And terrain setup the way GW has it in the 7th rulebook is VERY open to abuse. The terrain rules themselves are VERY open to abuse.

It's nice if you can find someone to just play on an open plain and line up so that you can just march across and kill them. But most games tactics include terrain setup. Which means you need to make house rules to perclude people from abusing those terrible terrain setup rules.

So far the D3+1, no terrain initially within 12" of center, then scatter terrain is the best terrain setup I've seen, that's the most(not completely of course) fair.

Malorian
25-10-2008, 07:49
Game 6: Small and Furious

After their battle in a far off land the horde of Morko Orko find themselves back in the realm of man and soon find another army to fight.

Across the field was a small army of small men. They didn't seem overly aggressive and didn't seem to have much loot, but seeing as all Morko wanted was a fight it didn't reall matter.

The only problem Morko had was that he didn't have a general to lead his men. With Krazyface dead he'd have to call up another one of his Kaptins to take the lead. The perfect orc for the just was Suppa Killa; a savage orc from the same family as Krazyface.

With that settled, and with the dwarfs loading their bolt throwers, it was time to fight.


My list:

(Suppa Killa)Savage orc warboss w/ great axe, iron gnashas
(Big Rokk)Black orc BSB w/ spirit totem, heavy armor, boar
(Zip Blade) Goblin big boss w/ wolf, one hit wunda, light armor, shield
(Welpsly)Night goblin shaman w/ staff of sneaky stealing

25 boyz w/ shields, banner
25 boyz w/ shields, banner
25 boyz w/ shields, banner
25 boyz w/ shields, banner
27 night goblins w/ 2 fanatics, nets, banner
6 wolf riders w/ bows, spears, musician, banner
5 wolf riders w/ bows, spears, musician
5 spider riders w/ musician

Orc chariot
Orc chariot
2 spear chukkas
2 spear chukkas

Doom diver
Troll


His list:

Runelord w/ anvil and who knows what else
Bugman *general*

20 warriors
20 warriors
10 thunderers
10 thunderers
15 white beard rangers w/ throwing axes
*As far as commands go he might have had musicians and champs but there were no banners, which was odd...*

bolt thrower w/ rune of str 7, rune of 2+ to his
bolt thrower w/ rune of str 7, engineer
20 slayers w/ 4 giant slayers

Gyrocopter


Just because it is a hot topic we did terrain by a third party picking out 5 pieces of terrain and then we rolled off and placed them. It was a 6X4 board and I had a hill in the back left of my deployment zone, and a tree covered hill on the right. Then there was a forest in the center of the right flank, he had a hill in the back center of his deployment zone and there was a river (impassible) blocking off the left flank.

I deployed a spear chukka on the left flank, two more spear chukkas and the doom diver on the hill. In front of the hill was a chariot and a unit of wolf riders. Then from left to the right there was: block, block w/ Killa, night goblins w/ Big Rokk and a troll in front, block, chariot, block. Then in the trees were the spider riders and Welpsly, and on the right flank was Zip Blade and the big wolf unit.

He deployed his anvil in the left corner. Then he had a unit of warriors w/ Bugmen, warriors, and the slayers to the left of the hill. On the hill were the bolt throwers on either side of a unit of thunderers and then the other thunderers in front of the hill. The gyrocopter was behind the hill and the rangers scouted behind the woods on the right.

He got first turn.


Pre-game thoughts: This player is the well known skaven player of the group and is known for taking nasty lists. This list however looked fairly tame (no idea why he didn't take banners). Basically I just had to run in there and fight and just deal with what animosity and the anvil gave me, but I wasn't too worried about anything.


Turn 1 Dwarfs:

Gyropter flies behind the trees on the right and the rangers wheel to face the center. The left most warriors also wheel to face the center with the river protecting their flank. In the shooting phase his anvil blew up (!!!) and I had to talk him out of quiting. His bolt throwers destoyed both of my chariots *sniff* so it wasn't all bad (although admittedly a VERY bad start for him).

Turn 1 Orcs:

Animosity make Killa unit run up as does Zip Blades unit and the spiders, each about 3 inches. The troll passes stupidity. The left wolves run ahead and the line follows behind. The spider riders move into the next group of trees to face the rangers flank and Zip Blades wolves move up to face their rear. In the shooting phase the doom diver scatters off his bolt thrower but the spear chukkas kill 6 warriors from the left unit.

Turn 2 Dwarfs:

Rangers turn to face the wolf riders and the gyrocopter moves to Zip Blade's flank. In the shooting phase the gyrocopter kills 5 wolves and they run never to rally. The thunderers kill 2 wolves and hey fail their panic and run back and the block second from the right lose 5 models and they panic and run back (although I should have tested, I just rolled when he told me I had to (I'm too trusting)).

Turn 2 Orcs:

Animosity does nothing. Troll fails stupidity and moves up a bit. Block rallies. Spiders move to face front thunderer's flank and the line moves up. In the shooting phase doom diver scatters again and the spear chukkas kill 2 slayers and 6 warriors from the center unit.

Turn 3 Dwarfs:

Left warriors declare a charge on my left block but are out of range and fail. Rangers turn to face spiders and gyrocopter moves to behind the right block and killed 4 of them. He also killed five from my general's unit and 4 from the unit he had tried to charge. The rangers killed 2 spiders but they held.

Turn 3 Orcs:

Animosity see the the newly rallied orcs run up 4 inches and force me to kill a night goblin to keep them in order. Troll fails stupidity (ARRRGH!) and he stumbles forward. I declare a charge with the rallied block on the gyrocopter, the spiders on the thunder's flank, and the left block into his left warriors. The gyrocopter fleed and went over my spiders (I was sure that I still got to kill him if he fled over me but he said since he was flying he was ok), and he held his ground for the other charges. The blocks then moved up a bit on the left as I tried to cover the block in combat, and the right block moved up to help the spiders. In the shooting phase doom diver scattered, and the spear chukkas all failed to do anything. In combat I killed two dwarfs and lost a single orc, but he held (Doesn't Bugman have to be with his rangers?). The spiders killed one thunderer but they held.

Turn 4 Dwarfs:

The center warriors join the combat by charging the front while the slayers charge the flank. This triggers the fanatics and I send them through Killa's unit (killing 3) and it kills 7 slayers and 2 of the warriors in Bugman's unit. The gyrocopter rallied and the rangers move towards the spiders flank. Shooting kills some orcs in the right unit (I have 11 now) and panic is passed. In combat my orcs are slaughtered and I break and am caught. The slayers run into the front of Killa's unit while Bugman just run into the slayers corner and the left warriors hold back. The spiders kill one more thunderer and again they hold.

Turn 4 Orcs:

Animosity does nothing and I pass stupidity. The troll and right block charge the front thunderers, while the block in the back tries to catch up and threaten the ranger's flank and the night goblins move up and start working over to the flank of the slayers. All the warmachines go after the left warriors and I kill 5 more. In combat a giant slayer makes a challenge which Killa takes (they always went for the extra attack). To my horror he actually causes three wounds (!!!) but my 6+ ward saves two of them (!!!). In return I smash him. I lose about 5 orcs but I still win combat. The thunderers are crushed and the troll over runs into the thunderers behind, spiders run off the board and the block is just short of the right bolt thrower.

Turn 5 Dwarfs:

The left warriors declare a charge on Killa's flank but are just short and fail. The rangers charge my right block and I flee into the thunderers (and die) but get away and they fail. Bugman's warriors reform to face the center (so they could go around behind the slayers) and the gyrocopter flies back to the rallied block's flank and kills 4 of them. His bolt thorwers only kill a few more and panic is passed. In combat Killa challenges a giant slayer and I lose another would and smash him while I lose some orcs but I again I win. The troll does nothing and then loses a wound but holds.

Turn 5 Orcs:

I declare a Waaagh and this makes the rallied block run up, but not far enough to be in charge rank of the ranger's flank. The night goblins charge the flank of the slayers. The spiders come on and face the rear of the right bolt thrower. My shooting kills about 5 more of the left warriors and they panic (never to regroup because they are too small), and I do two wounds to the gyrocopter. In combat the troll does nothing again, takes another wound, and is ran down. I go to town on the slayers and kill them all (although Killa's unit is down to him and 5 orcs) but the night goblins miss overrunning into Bugman by 1 inch.

Turn 6 Dwarfs:

Bugman's unit charges Killa's unit, I flee, and he catches me (!!!) getting out of the LOS of the night goblins. The rangers move back and the gyrocopter flies over to the night goblins. Shooting kills some night goblins and orcs, but not enough to do anything.

Turn 6 Orcs:

Animosity does nothing and with nothing to charge I just shoot down the gyrocopter and kill a few more warriors.

We add is up the Orcs barely get away with a tie. Tie for the Orcs! (4-0-2)


Morko wasn't happy... his new general was already dead, and not only that, but he had died running from dwarfs... But all he could do was lick his wounded pride and move on.


Post-game thoughts: What a mess that turned out to be. If that anvil hadn't blown up first turn I can only guess at how badly I would have lost. That being said things quickly tuned against me too. Those stupid bolt throwers took out my chariots, and the troll failing his stupidity twice (along with me failing a panic I didn't need to take) meant that a good part of my line just wasn't there as the night goblins were trapped behind the troll. He also made some key leadership tests and I'll have to make sure that Bugman is actually Ld 10... Oh well, at least it's a tie and the Orcs are still undefeated :D

Edit: Turns out Bugman is Ld10 and doesn't have to be deployed with his rangers.

Storak
25-10-2008, 08:32
Those stupid bolt throwers took out my chariots,

his bolts should kill 1.25 chariots when he is using the 2+ to hit and 1 when he is not. it was utterly clear, that your chariots would be dead on turn 2.

how often they make it into combat and that you never hide them, tells a lot about your opponents and the lists they are bringing...


and the troll failing his stupidity twice

not that strange either. on average he should fail 1 test per game. if you can always keep him in reach of the general..


(along with me failing a panic I didn't need to take) meant that a good part of my line just wasn't there as the night goblins were trapped behind the troll.

if your opponents were using their mobile units more often, this would rather be the norm than the exception...

Malorian
25-10-2008, 09:10
Game 7: Damn those elves and their tricks!

Setting up a new savage orc as his general (Morko just had to respect they love of killing) and picking up a few more boyz on the way, they had now come across an army of high elves, but little did they know that the high elves had some tricks up their silken sleeves...


My list is the same except now my warboss's name is Thrasha :p

His list was:

Lvl 4 mage on a horse that could pick his spells and and doubles are irresistable force.
Lvl 2 mage

15 sea guard
15 sea guard
5 fast cav w/ bows (I forget their name)

20 Pheonix guard w/ full command and banner of sorcery
5 dragon princes
5 dragon princes

2 eagles
2 RBTs


Now this player likes to do terrain with the 6th ed rules where you randomly roll for terrain and then roll to randomly scatter it on the board. Well it was VERY one sided so that there was a forest on the left flank, and then my left deployment zone was FULL of impassable terrain. So basically my army would have to deploy all on the right flank while his wood elve style army laughed and avoided me. (I hope you guys find this more fair than having an open center :rolleyes: )

Anyway as I said I got stuck with the 'bad' side and I deployed a spear chukka in the far left flank with he wolf riders, spider riders and one block. One spear chukka was in the middle of the impassible terrain with LOS out. Then on the right flank from left to right I had: block, chariot, block, night goblins w/ Big Rokk and troll in front, block w/ Thrasha, chariot, Zip Blade and his wolves. Then behind Zip blade I had the doom diver and a spear chukka behind the night goblins.

He deployed an eagle on each side edge. Behind the trees was a unit of sea guard a RBT, and the fast cav w/ lord. In the center there was the pheonix guard (7 wide) w/ hero mage and another unit of sea guard to their right, and both units of dragon princes were on the right flank.

I won first turn.


Pre-game thoughts: I could tell how this game was going to go and I didn't like it. Basically his plan was to smash in with the dragon princes and do as much damage as possible while pinning me down (march blocking) and blasting me with magic and shooting. My only hope was to beat the knights quickly and more on to richer targets. The only problem is that I'd need at least two units to take on the pheonix guard if I didn't want to worry about running away in fear...


Turn 1 Orcs:

Animosity makes the left block run up and the troll passes it's stupidity and runs towards the knights with most of the block backing it up and making room to give the warmachines LOS. The right chariot and Zip blade held back though just in case. The spiders ran into the forest and the wolves put their backs to the forest in case the eagle made a dash at the spear chukka. The left flank block started moving up as well. The doom diver hit the left dragon prince unit and killed two (panic is passed) and a spear chukka hit the right unit and killed one. Another spear chukka killed a fast cav.

Turn 1 HE:

Eagle moves to the left of the forest (damn), the fast cav moves to the right of the forest, pheonix guard moves up a bit to face more to the center and the right eagle flies up to release my fanatics. I consider sending them backwards to get them out of the way but instead take he gamble and send them at the eagle. They go 5 and 4 inches and are much too close to my army. The dragon princes shuffle to the left. My shut down his magic phase and in the shooting phase I lose 5 orcs from Welpsly's unit.

Turn 2 Orcs:

Animosity stops Zip Blade from moving, I kill 3 night goblins, and the troll fails it stupidity (damn, I wanted him to jump on the fanatics :p ). Thrasha's unit declares a charge on the right eagle but first the fanatics move and as one heads off to his right, never to do anything, the other slams through my three units to his left doing a wound to the chariot and killing some orcs from both blocks. The eagle flees and gets away. The rest of my line pushes forward. The spiders move up to see his left bolt thrower and the wolves move over to be in front of his eagle. In the shooting phase the doom diver kills all four dragon princes from the right unit and the spear chukkas manage to kill nothing (damn pheonix ward save...). The wolf riders however are able to do two wounds to the left eagle.

Turn 2 HE:

The dragon princes try to charge the troll but it flees and gets away. The left sea guard charge my spiders and not wanting to take a chance I flee and get away. The eagle fails to rally and almost flies off the board while the let eagle flies over my wolves to be 1 inch away from the spear chukka. The fast cav move to the other side of my left flank block facing the spear chukka in the terrain. The right sea guard reforms to get ranks. In the magic phase he destroys my staff of sneaky stealing with irresistable force and has a miscast that does nothing.In the shooting phase. His fast cav shoot down 1 crew and his other shooting brings Weplsly's unit down to 14 models.

Turn 3 Orcs:

Animosity sees Thasha's unit move up and Zip Blade stuck again. Thrasha's unit charges the dragon princes who flee and get away and the Welpsly's block charges into the sea guard. (I didn't want my mage in combat. I just forgot to run him into a different unit last turn.) The spider riders and the troll regroup and the fanatic kills my left chariot to the amuzement of my opponent. The line moves up and the left flank block turns to face the fast cav. In the shooting phase the doom diver kills off the fleeing dragon princes and the spear chukkas miss the injured eagle (as do the wolves) but they kill 3 pheonix guard. In combat he does a wound to Welpsly and kills an orc but I hold thanks to the BSB.

Turn 3 HE:

Eagle charges into the spearchukka and the other rallies. Pheonix guard move up and the fast cav move out of sight again. In the magic phase he gets the Lvl 1 metal spell on Big Rokk but fails to wound. His lord also miscasts and loses a magic level. In the shooting phase I lose a couple of orcs from Thrasha's unit. In combat Welpsly is killed (Nooo!) and I lose 2 orcs. I break and he tried to hold back, but fails, however he only moves 3 inches (much further and my blocks could have countered). The fleeing orcs run over the night goblins and another block but they don't panic. Eagle kills a crew, they flee and he runs them down.

Turn 4 Orcs:

I call a Waaagh but the Thasha's unit doesn't move far enough to be within charging range of the sea guard. Zip blade also moves up and the troll fails stupidity and stumbles along (he'll do this for the rest of the game so I'll stop mentioning it). The block rallies and the left fanatis kills itself. The spiders move back into the trees but more to the right side with LOS to the RBT again. The wolve run after the left eagle and the left line moves up with Zip Blade running up the right flank and the chariot heading to the left bhind the line and towards the Pheonix guard. In the shooting phase I shoot down the eagle but I can't manage to hit his fast cav. The doom diver misfires and can shoot next turn either.

Turn 4 HE:

The right sea guard moves back while the left one shuffles to the right, and the fast cav once again moves to the flank of my block over there. The eagle flies in front of one of my blocks and the pheonix guard moves up behind (the eagle is at a slant forcing me to show his elite my flank if I charge). In the magic phase he stops my chariot from moving and he kills 7 night goblins. In the shooting phase his left sea guard, even though they need 5+ to hit, wipe out all of my spiders. The rest kills some orcs.

Turn 5 Orcs:

Animosity makes Thrasha run up and he declares a charge on the sea guard but they flee and get away. Zip Blade also moves up thanks to animosity and charges into the right bolt thrower. The left wolves move up to shoot at the fast cav (although they will do nothing) and the block, instead of charging the eagle, shifts over to be side by side with Thrasha's unit (charge one and you much charge them both) while the night goblins and the rallied block move into position. In the shooting phase I once again fail to do anything to the fast cav although I kill a couple of pheonix guard. In combat the bolt thrower is wiped out and I run off the table.

Turn 5 HE:

The pheonix guard charge my rallied block, which flees and gets away. Sea guard rally while the left sea guard reform to face the center. The eagle shifts a bit to once again be in my way and ensure I can't hit his elite's flank. In the magic phase he gives his cav a ward save, and once again my chariot can't move. In the shooting phase kills a few more orcs.

Turn 6 Orcs:

Animosity doesn't let Thrasha's unit move (his unit was the only one that, with a good overrun roll, could have killed the eagle and overran into the pheonix guard's flank). The fleeing block keeps running and my units just wait the end of the game as I fail to shoot down any fast cav.

Turn 6 HE:

He does nothing but move to take table quarters and do some shooting which doesn't even cause a panic test.

We add it up and it's a tie in my favor. Another tie for the Orcs! (4-0-3)


"Kurse dese bloddy elves!" Morko yelled. He couldn't stand watching as his men hopelessly chased the high elves around the battle field. "Kurse you, and to hell wit yur damn trikks!!!"

In the shadows behind Morko, Storak just smiled to himself...


Post-game thoughts: Well that basically went the way I thought it would. Had I not been so foolish with my mage and had some better luck hitting that fast cav unit with his lord I could have pulled off a win, but nothing stung more than having the fanatics kill as much of my army as he did. I guess I was due as I've had pretty good luck with them so far. It was nice to see the doom diver doing what it was suppose to. I always saw it as the ultimate knight killer and man did it deliver today. Any thoughts of dropping it are gone now.

So two draws for the Orcs in one day was kind of disappointing, but at least I'm still not losing and which shows I can keep pace with other armies in general. I still have to play against deamons and vampires though, but it's only a matter of time.

Well thanks for reading. Hopefully next time I can give you what you want and get back to crushing my opponent's :D


Edit:

Storak: I didn't know his bolt throwers were str 7 (although I was sure at least one of them were) and I wonder how you expected me to hide my chariots when his warmachines were on a hill?

I'd think we'd all find it very interesting to read one of your battle reports Storak...

blurred
25-10-2008, 10:04
Now this player likes to do terrain with the 6th ed rules where you randomly roll for terrain and then roll to randomly scatter it on the board. Well it was VERY one sided so that there was a forest on the left flank, and then my left deployment zone was FULL of impassable terrain. So basically my army would have to deploy all on the right flank while his wood elve style army laughed and avoided me. (I hope you guys find this more fair than having an open center )

Oh, come on. That's unfair. We play for fun in my gaming group, don't you? If we don't like the random terrain, we tweak it so that its interesting and playable for both. Having deployment zone full of impassable terrain is just silly. :rolleyes:

Anyway, thanks for the good reports again.

Kahadras
25-10-2008, 13:39
I'd think we'd all find it very interesting to read one of your battle reports Storak...

It would be interesting. Especialy if he broke out his O&G and started doing a gaming log as well.

Kahadras

Storak
25-10-2008, 13:57
[B][U]Storak: I didn't know his bolt throwers were str 7 (although I was sure at least one of them were) and I wonder how you expected me to hide my chariots when his warmachines were on a hill?

i ve been hiding my chariots behind woods and houses for quite some time, protecting my back or waiting for an opportunity to charge. they simply can t take fire from cannons or S7 bolts.

i was just astonished to find you surprised by their destruction in turn 1.


I'd think we'd all find it very interesting to read one of your battle reports Storak...

what good would it be? when i lose against a strong army, it would just confirm what we already know from the tournaments.

if i would turn out to be a very bad player, it still wouldn t contradict the tournament facts or the simple math i provided on the bolt throwers above.

Gazak Blacktoof
25-10-2008, 14:39
i ve been hiding my chariots behind woods and houses for quite some time, protecting my back or waiting for an opportunity to charge. they simply can t take fire from cannons or S7 bolts.

This is what I do as well. Running chariots out in front of artillery or some character builds is just asking for trouble.

Chariots and giants are the reliable units in an orc and goblin army because they don't take animosity tests and are quite manoeuvrable. IMO they should come into play only once threats to them have been eliminated, even if that means lurking behind a convenient hill for the first 4 turns.

The alternative is to flood the field with them and charge head long which is the tactic my brother used when he played greenskins in 6th, I don't think he's used my greenies in 7th.


One minor rules point from the last 2 games posted- when a troll (or other unit) fails its stupidity test it is now ItP until its next stupidity test and thus cannot opt to flee from a charge. During one of the last 2 games you appeared to have fled with a troll after it went stupid. You probably just forgot in the heat of battle but I thought I'd point it out just in case.

EvC
25-10-2008, 15:35
Yeah when I play against Dark Elves I just wait for Cold One Knights to fail stupidity, then I go in for the kill with major hammer units knowing they can't flee :D

I'd also double check that your opponent wasn't using 6th edition High Elf rules as well when it suited him- he can't get both the Book of Hoeth AND the seerstaff on his Archmage. Tut tut...

Malorian
25-10-2008, 16:58
It would be interesting. Especialy if he broke out his O&G and started doing a gaming log as well.

Kahadras

The people have spoken, and they demand a Storak Battle Report Thread!

Dare you go against the people?

blackjack
25-10-2008, 17:02
Great reports!

As far as I am concerned you have proved your point, Green can hang with the rest of the field.

I would love to see you let somone play your tournament winning VC against your Orcs. If you have some one who knows how to play them I think they would represent an ultimate challenge for the Green....

Iamthegodcomplex
25-10-2008, 19:21
Lvl 4 mage on a horse that could pick his spells and and doubles are irresistable force.


Already been said, but this is wrong. Book of Hoeth (Irresistible on doubles) costs 100 points, and the Seerstaff of Saphery (Pick spells) costs 30, meaning he was 30 points above his magic item limit. If he wanted that he should have just taken Teclis.

Glad to see you doing well with greenskins. One of my friends plays a nightgoblin horde with some black orcs mixed in and I've pointed him here for encouragement.

Storak
25-10-2008, 20:52
The people have spoken, and they demand a Storak Battle Report Thread!

Dare you go against the people?

two people are not "the" people.

there wont be a "Storak Battle Report Thread". but if i find the time, and something interesting happens, i ll try to report back...

but yes, when fighting dwarfs, i would expect him to bring 2+ cannons and bolts to be S7. i would know, that chariots will die, when i leave them in the open....

and i don t expect shootier armies to come rushing towards me. and mobile armies will pull fanatics, march block and kill my warmachines.

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
26-10-2008, 00:21
Friendship doesn't mean you don't want to win.

I use to play with my one of my best friends on a weekly basis. He plays lizzies. He thinks nothing of taking a 12x12 inch lake and placing it just outside of 12" of the middle of the table(in 6th I had to hope I could place terrain first and slap a hill in the center of the table just to block the lake being placed there).

It's perfectly legal. Which is the problem. Just like gunlines are legal, daemons are legal and a myriad of other broken and unfair builds are legal.

This is why abusive rules are a problem in this game. And terrain setup the way GW has it in the 7th rulebook is VERY open to abuse. The terrain rules themselves are VERY open to abuse.

It's nice if you can find someone to just play on an open plain and line up so that you can just march across and kill them. But most games tactics include terrain setup. Which means you need to make house rules to perclude people from abusing those terrible terrain setup rules.

So far the D3+1, no terrain initially within 12" of center, then scatter terrain is the best terrain setup I've seen, that's the most(not completely of course) fair.

Every rulebook that I've ever seen for Warhammer Fantasy and Warhammer 40K says the exact same thing in the beginning: the MOST important rule is to have fun. There are no such thing as abusive rules in anything other than tournament games, because in any other case you can say, "Hey friend. It seems like this rule is a little unsporting/unfair/ruins the chances of me winning at all," and then you change it. The problem with any rule set is there will always be exceptions or circumstances the creators did not suspect or anticipate. That's where you come in, the intelligent human being.


Now this player likes to do terrain with the 6th ed rules where you randomly roll for terrain and then roll to randomly scatter it on the board. Well it was VERY one sided so that there was a forest on the left flank, and then my left deployment zone was FULL of impassable terrain. So basically my army would have to deploy all on the right flank while his wood elve style army laughed and avoided me. (I hope you guys find this more fair than having an open center :rolleyes: )

This is the craziest thing I've ever heard. I'm proud that you could just shrug it off and say that although it was completely unfair and unfun, I'll still give it a shot. Like I said before, generals do get to pick and choose (to some extent, except for in special cases like ambushes, flank attacks, retreats, etc.) where battles are fought. That is what the 7th edition terrain placement rules represent. Or, you can have a third party set up the board and then roll to see who chooses which side. Or even better, one of the two sets up the terrain and the other picks which side they want, making sure the first guy sets it up in a fair manner.

Congrats on another close fight, Malorian. Don't forge that while you're out to prove something, you should still make sure you're having fun! We will still respect your victories if you don't have to deal with insane terrain placement.

Kalec
26-10-2008, 02:13
but yes, when fighting dwarfs, i would expect him to bring 2+ cannons and bolts to be S7. i would know, that chariots will die, when i leave them in the open....

and i don t expect shootier armies to come rushing towards me. and mobile armies will pull fanatics, march block and kill my warmachines.

You should see the newest WD battle report for WoC vs Dwarfs. Or check the thread in general.

blackjack
26-10-2008, 04:20
In my experiance WD battle reports are not representative of anything real people do.

PopeAlexanderVI
26-10-2008, 07:51
Great reports!

As far as I am concerned you have proved your point, Green can hang with the rest of the field.

I would love to see you let somone play your tournament winning VC against your Orcs. If you have some one who knows how to play them I think they would represent an ultimate challenge for the Green....

Love the reports also. I think Malorian has proven that Orcs are definitely playable in a friendly environment. They're a fun list and it's not all doom and gloom if you're playing amongst friends. But I also don't think that many people were ever disputing that.

We shouldn't overstate the power of the Orc list on the basis of this thread. The greenskins will still struggle against any moderately hard list from one of the newer books. So far when Malorian has fought these lists (the Dwarves and the HE) he has had some unusually good luck. For example, the dwarves lost their anvil on turn 1 and reading that HE report there were a high number of miscasts.

Does that mean orcs can't win? No, but it does mean that when orcs are fighting a competitive list from a strong book they're at a handicap. That handicap can be made up by some combination of superior skill and luck. But if that 3000 pts game vs DE had been against a player as skilled as Malorian who decided to take a min/max list then Malorian would have needed some extreme luck to win.

So lets be realistic about this. Greenskins are a great list, internally balanced well with fun mechanics. They're also one of the cooler armies. If you're part of a friendly playscene, don't mind a handicap, or are significantly more skilled than your competitors then they're a great army to use. But they are underpowered and won't be performing in tournaments. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous.

Storak
26-10-2008, 08:44
You should see the newest WD battle report for WoC vs Dwarfs. Or check the thread in general.

well, fielding combat dwarfs against WoC is just moronic. it doesn t show anything about the performance of the armies involved.
in a friendly environment, you can just play for the fun and go for it. in a competitive environment, when faced with a counter set up, you MUST play point denial and go for a draw. rushing towards an opponent that is clearly superior in CC is simply not good gameplay.

unfortunately that is what we see in GW (introductionary) battle reports and this is the standard for the battles that Malorian has fought so far too.

ps: i am just curious: did you deploy those chariots before the dwarfs deployed their artillery (not knowing, whether you would face cannons) or after (thinking those bolts wouldn t be S7)?

Thommy H
26-10-2008, 09:53
Does that mean orcs can't win? No, but it does mean that when orcs are fighting a competitive list from a strong book they're at a handicap.

Isn't that exactly the hypothesis Malorian is testing in this thread? It seems slightly bizarre that some people are excusing everything he does and continuing to make the same assumption he's trying to disprove.

You can't just take the evidence and say "okay, sure, but this other hypothesis for which we have no evidence to hand is still probably true". I'm not saying Malorian has proved anything yet, but to make an assertion without evidence in a thread where the whole point is to base conclusions on evidence from battle reports is kind of rude, isn't it?

Storak
26-10-2008, 11:59
Isn't that exactly the hypothesis Malorian is testing in this thread? It seems slightly bizarre that some people are excusing everything he does and continuing to make the same assumption he's trying to disprove.

You can't just take the evidence and say "okay, sure, but this other hypothesis for which we have no evidence to hand is still probably true". I'm not saying Malorian has proved anything yet, but to make an assertion without evidence in a thread where the whole point is to base conclusions on evidence from battle reports is kind of rude, isn't it?

you mean no evidence beyond those 10000 (http://www.warvault.net/warhammer_realm/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=4037) tournament battles?

he is playing battles against shooty armies, in which those shooty armies don t bring their shooty stuff but instead rush directly ahead into combat.

he is playing battles against very mobile armies, in which those mobile armies leave their mobile stuff at home and allow the orcs to do the majority of movement and charging.

sorry, but i ll stick to that tournament evidence...

Thommy H
26-10-2008, 14:29
Aren't those statistics from January 2007?

The point is, Malorian is doing this experiment to disprove the hypothesis that the Orc and Goblin army is so monstrously underpowered that it breaks the game, right? He's arguing against the concept that taking an O&G army is tantamount to conceding before the armies are even deployed and that no one in their right mind would play them.

So far, when he wins (which he seems to be doing quite a bit), it's being attributed to luck or lack of skill on the part of the opponent, but that's insane. If he plays a game in which all the dice go against him against an opponent that makes no mistakes than of course he'll lose - everyone would. You're putting unrealistic expectations on the average game of Warhammer. Luck is a decisive factor in every game of Warhammer and so is the generalship of the players. If we discount these two things and refuse to accept them as variables that affect the data then the whole exercise is a waste of time.

Malorian
26-10-2008, 16:37
ps: i am just curious: did you deploy those chariots before the dwarfs deployed their artillery (not knowing, whether you would face cannons) or after (thinking those bolts wouldn t be S7)?

One was deployed before and one was deployed after. We each had our army pulled out so I knew he didn't have a cannon.

Basically my choices were 1) Hide the chariots and have them have no part in the battle, or 2) place them with the army and take he chance of them being hit by warmachines but at the same time at least having them in a position to be used.

I figured at least one of those bolt throwers would be str 7, but I didn't think they both would be and that they would both hit and kill on the first turn.


I'd also like to say that my list isn't as nasty as it could be. I could drop the chariots and go with 8 spear chukkas, go with 2 doom divers, change the characters over to casters and then basically run an orc gun/magic line.

The list I've gone with is a very competitive one that can compete with the vast majority of the lists you see out there rather than specializing in one area and taking the change that someone brings the rock to my scissors.


Although I VERY much appreciate the support I'm getting I have to also keep in mine that I still have to take on deamons and vampire counts. The armies I've fought haven't exactly been weak (and that empire in particular was a fairly strong list) but they aren't the ones Storak are complaining about either.

At this point I think I can savely say that Orcs are competitive with the majority of the lists out there, but I still have to test them against the best to see if the orc fall short, can draw, or smash them! (Waaagh!)

But once again, thanks for the support thus far :)

Storak
26-10-2008, 18:03
just short, i ll try a longer answer later.


Aren't those statistics from January 2007?


they are. and things got worse since then. new elves, new vampires and new daemons. all armies much stronger than they were before.


One was deployed before and one was deployed after. We each had our army pulled out so I knew he didn't have a cannon.

i don t know what deployment rules you were using in that battle, but in 7th edition all warmachines are deployed as a single deployment choice...

Thommy H
26-10-2008, 18:09
they are. and things got worse since then. new elves, new vampires and new daemons. all armies much stronger than they were before.

You can't cite evidence for a conclusion and, when someone challenges it, insist on the same conclusion without evidence.

Anyway, the point is, tournaments only show us how tournament gamers play. Doesn't mean anything to the vast majority of us.

Storak
26-10-2008, 19:35
You can't cite evidence for a conclusion and, when someone challenges it, insist on the same conclusion without evidence.

the claim that there is a lack of evidence for the O&G weakness in tournament play is obviously false.

the claim that daemons got more weak with their new army book is absurd. evidence can be found all over these boards and in tournaments results.


Anyway, the point is, tournaments only show us how tournament gamers play. Doesn't mean anything to the vast majority of us.

tournaments provide information about competitive gameplay. competive gameplay is, what this discussion is about.

PopeAlexanderVI
26-10-2008, 20:33
Isn't that exactly the hypothesis Malorian is testing in this thread? It seems slightly bizarre that some people are excusing everything he does and continuing to make the same assumption he's trying to disprove.

You can't just take the evidence and say "okay, sure, but this other hypothesis for which we have no evidence to hand is still probably true". I'm not saying Malorian has proved anything yet, but to make an assertion without evidence in a thread where the whole point is to base conclusions on evidence from battle reports is kind of rude, isn't it?

Malorian is trying to prove that Orcs are
as good as any other army

Thats just not the case, and none of these battle reports have shown that for reasons the reasons already mentioned. Those are:
A. Malorian is a better player than his competitors
B. Malorian's competitors are not always taking competitive lists
C. Malorian has gotten some luck at critical times

Battle reports cannot possibly prove Malorian's hypothesis so long as any of those factors are in play. The only way we can really get a sense of the power level of the book is by ensuring that the results are not polluted by those variables, the only way to do that is by looking at tournament results.

Tournament results are a large enough sample that player skill can be assumed to even itself out, tournament lists are WAAC, and luck is negligible over the large sample size. Orcs just aren't performing in tournaments, look at the results from any recent GT. Therefore we can say that orcs are underpowered in competitive play.

I love Orcs and I love these battle reports, they're a lot of fun to read. But just by nature of the variables involved there is no way that they are going to be able to prove that orcs can be a competitive list.

Fredmans
26-10-2008, 21:21
I am not quite sure I agree with some of the posters here. Achieving good results in a tournament environment is not what makes or breaks an army book. It definitely shows whether there are abusive army builds or not. I, for one, would sure like to see army lists to go with tournament results, because then we would know for sure what the issues are.

My own 7th ed experiences with O&G is about 40% wins, 25 % draws and 35% losses. I consider myself and my opponents to be decent generals. The majority of losses have been due to Psychology (low leadership, failed Terror and Fear tests), and I think this is the greatest weakness of the O&G army. I think what makes O&G a worse tournament army than others can be seen in my (and possibly countless other players') results. The O&G:s are too unreliable to consistently score high in tournaments. Animosity, stupidity, terror and fear makes for too many rolls for none (in a weekend of battles) to go bad. It also means that you repeatedly put units in bad situations which makes it harder to cut losses. A squabbling unit will be charged. Despite a positive win-loss ratio, the majority of my victories are minor or solid, whereas many losses are massacres. O&G take losses, and due to being an infantry-based army, also have a hard time hiding units in the end game.

These points are seldom discussed, and I do not mean to hi-jack this battle report thread, but what Malorian is doing neither proves nor disproves the tournament issue.

However, this thread shows that O&G can win battles, and I would like to ask Malorian a very important question to prove a second point.

Are you enjoying your greenskin romp, Malorian?

/Fredmans