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View Full Version : Can modelling be used to increase the effectiveness of shooting?



Geddonight
02-09-2008, 19:35
I'm (brand spanking) new to Fantasy, and am slowly learning the rules. I've noticed that models within a unit block line of sight--typically preventing hind ranks from shooting, for instance.

Is it possible, therefore to use modelling techniques that increase the number of models within a squad that can see like in 40k? (via the crawling wraithlord that no one ever sees, or the squatting daemon prince who can travel behind a rhino without worry).

For instance, can I offset archer models on their bases so that two ranks could see out?

Like so: | | = Bases

|X |X |X |X |X |
| X| X| X| X| X|

Or could I model the front row of archers kneeling to do the same?
x = kneeling
X = standing

xx x xx
XXXXX

you get the idea...

theunwantedbeing
02-09-2008, 19:55
No you cannot.

N810
02-09-2008, 20:07
nope line of fight in WHFB only counts bases in fron of a model
and what size that model is clasified as.
Example (large models can shoot over small models)

Grimtuff
02-09-2008, 20:10
Methinks the OP may want to take a look in the rulebook regarding how shooting actually works in WHFB. ;)

Hvidponi
02-09-2008, 20:26
It's the base, not the model that blocks line of sight...

Geddonight
02-09-2008, 20:47
Methinks the OP may want to take a look in the rulebook regarding how shooting actually works in WHFB. ;)

I've taken "a look" but perhaps haven't fully perused (and memorized) the rules for WHFB. I realize it may not be your intent, but you come off rather rude to a new player when responding with flippant quips or terse responses. Citing rules to help me understand would be much more helpful.

Here's what I came across:

P 26 - tells me to reference page 8 about line of sight rules, reminds me that some models in a unit may be able to see, while others may not, and also reminds me that other models (friendly or otherwise) and terrain block line of sight.

So... I go back to page 8 & 9 and look there.

Here, under Line of Sight it says that a model's "LOS may be blocked if there is anything between him and his intended target that obscures his view. Thus, interposing models or scenery may block a model's line of sight to a target." (the section on interposing models says the same thing on p. 9)

Then it tells me to check line of sight from a "model's eye view" to determine what does or doesn't have line of sight.

I don't see anywhere that says bases are used in determining what's obscuring vision--I see it's used for determining what's within a unit's arc & can therefore be seen.

Having never played a game, and only seen a few games (where the only shooting came from bolt-throwers), please understand my confusion/naivete. I'm just trying to figure out this system (and perhaps get past some of my preconceived notions of how battles should/have worked IRL or at least on the silver screen. For instance, I can fully rationalize lines of crossbowmen--or longbow archers--stacked deep in ranks, firing at those they can see--or firing a fusillade in the case of the longbows).

So it seems rather rational that a rank behind the first could have an un-obscured view of a target through the use of modelling or model placement...especially without helpful diagrams that explain how model line of sight can be obscured.

Thanks for the assist, though!

N810
02-09-2008, 21:02
the battle for skull pass mini rule book has some nice diagrams...
too bad GW doesn't let me post them :(

Ahhh I found a GW link:
http://warhammer.uk.games-workshop.com/gaming/skullpass/rules.htm

The Red Scourge
02-09-2008, 21:12
Well LOS is a bit two dimentional in WFB.

1st rank of models obscure LOS for the 2nd+ ranks unless on a hill where the 2nd rank is able to fire, or when the unit is firing at a large or higher ground target, where all ranks are able to fire.

An exception to this is skirmishing models, where the whole unit is able to shoot (without individual models blocking LOS).

The only fire in one rank might seem a bit odd especially for massed indirect fire weapons like bows but you mustn't think of the rules as a representation of reality, but more as an abstraction.

Think of WFB as a layered 2 dimensional game, where models take up a cube of space in their layer equal to their base size, and large targets fill up their ground level and a higher ground level.

Hope this helps and welcome to fantasy :)

Lord of Skulls
02-09-2008, 21:18
On page 26, under line of sight: "Remember that models and terrain block line of sight. This means that only models in the front rank of a unit are normally able to shoot[...]" It then goes on the to mention the case where you are allowed to fire in two ranks.

Hope that clears it up a little.

As for people seeming a bit rude, that might have to do with your 40k examples being prime cases of the most horrible rule-bending. This might therefore give people the impression that you are out to get an unfair advantage, rather than inquiring about the rules.

Edit: I should add that you are also (IIRC) allowed to shoot in several ranks when shooting at a large target, though I cannot for the life of me now find out where it says so...

Edit again: Found it! It was cleverly hidden on page 9 under "Interposing models", rather than under "Large Targets" as one would expect;)

Urgat
02-09-2008, 21:44
Is it possible, therefore to use modelling techniques that increase the number of models within a squad that can see like in 40k? (via the crawling wraithlord that no one ever sees, or the squatting daemon prince who can travel behind a rhino without worry).

Lol, when I first heard the new LoS rules for 40k, i was sure people would do that, and I thought that maybe I should try and make a "burried" tyranid army, with just the top of their heads pointing out of the ground (so, some green stuff. really cheap army to build and paint, really :p). How would people react to that? :D

Geddonight
02-09-2008, 22:06
Lol, when I first heard the new LoS rules for 40k, i was sure people would do that, and I thought that maybe I should try and make a "burried" tyranid army, with just the top of their heads pointing out of the ground (so, some green stuff. really cheap army to build and paint, really :p). How would people react to that? :D

I've faced a beautiful army of necrons rising out of the water--just heads & guns, really. It's wonderful for hiding behind hedges (and means they can shoot through the legs of enemies when they... move... past the hedge).

So WHFB works more like the old "Magic Cylinder" interpretation of 4th ed 40k? Sweet. (and thanks for the link. It's rather helpful. Would I be correct in assuming that a unit standing directly behind a low wall cannot see out & shoot at other targets, then?)

N810
03-09-2008, 02:30
"Would I be correct in assuming that a unit standing directly behind a low wall cannot see out & shoot at other targets, then?)"
I think that might depend on how low the wall is...
but don't quote me on it, I don't think there any absolute rules for terrain...

Condottiere
03-09-2008, 03:06
During terrain setup, the properties of the specific terrain is decided upon, including cover.

Gazak Blacktoof
03-09-2008, 11:27
We normally treat a low wall as blocking LOS until a unit is within 1" of it- it then provides hard cover (soft iif its a low fence or hedge) and models can see and be seen by the unit moving upto the wall.

TomGuadalupe
07-12-2008, 02:27
Thankfully Warhammer does not allow ************* of this nature.

Also being a 40k player i can tell you its not allowed there either.

Since you are a new player i suppose i can cut you some slack but you need to understand that if you were to try to pull sillyness like that with me i would never play with you again.

Modeling miniatures to make them smaller for LOS is not in the spirit of the rules and you know it.

Griefbringer
07-12-2008, 12:23
TomGuadalupe, since you are a new poster here I suppose you are not widely aware of the attitudes here towards threadomancy (posting to old threads making them pop up again).

I would say that it si considered useful if it brings some new input to the topic, but should you just repeat what was already said by many other posters many moons ago, it does not really bring any benefit anymore.

You can easily check when the initial/last post was sent by checking the date (above the name of the poster).