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View Full Version : A corpse cart in a unit - odd basesize question

Reinnon
03-09-2008, 14:01
Hey folks.

I'm a bit confused about how a corpse cart would displace models within a unit, because of its odd basesize.

Heres the situation:

I have a unit of twenty ghouls, for the purposes of ghoulkin i place a corpse cart (with a necromancer on top) within the unit.

For ease, i just slot the corpse cart next to the unit, the corpse cart displaces around 8 ghouls. Like the diagram below:

gggggcc
gggggcc
gggggcc
gggggcc

Now, it starts to get confusing when the corpse cart leaves the unit. While none of the ghouls actually move to incorporate the corpse cart (because the corpse cart effectively takes the space of 8 extra ghouls, making it a 7x4 formation), do the ghouls have "reform" after the corpse cart has left the unit to make it a 5x4 unit?

I don't have the rulebook near me to check it, and its starting to boggle my brain.

If the corpse cart leaves, does the ghoul unit become like this:

ggggggg
ggggggg
gggggg

OR does it become like this:

ggggg
ggggg
ggggg
ggggg

Formation one: the ghouls are actually moving, in the second formation none of the ghouls actually move. But formation one is keeping the same formation as the original unit!

This might be a reallly noobish question that is easily answered, but without a rulebook this is becoming hard for me to get my head round.

The question in short is this: Hows does a corpse cart interact with ranked up units?

theunwantedbeing
03-09-2008, 14:35
He's a character that joins a unit, so treat him as you would a normal 20mm base infantry model. (although on that takes up 10x as many slots! 2x5)

So when he leaves the unit, the unit goes back to the same width as they used to be (and no doubt loses a whole heap of rank bonus)

Wadders
03-09-2008, 21:56
You create 1 more "file" as it was a single model thus you were 5 ghouls wide plus 1 corpse cart making 6 wide. So the formation was 6 wide.

When he leaves it remains 6 wide. Expand ranks to fill the gap.

gaiaterra
03-09-2008, 23:52
I thought the corpse cart was a war machine like a chariot so it could not actually join an unit?

Reinnon
04-09-2008, 00:03
The corpse cart isn't a warmachine, with a necromancer on top it counts as a mount, and therefore can join units.

We seem to have two different answers, which one is correct?

I've found my copy of the rulebook, page 73 which details characters joining the unit doesn't mention what happens if the character is mounted on an odd sized base.

Abhorash
04-09-2008, 13:32
What i belive is...

gggggcc
gggggcc
gggggcc
gggggcc

That would be 7 wide unit.

ccggg
ccggg
ccggg
ccggg

That would be 5 wide unit.

Think about that.

Reinnon
04-09-2008, 14:06
...I have, i've admitted that it becomes a 7x4 unit in my original unit, although reading the rulebook would suggest that offically, it stays a 6x4 unit that just has a very big character in it.

In order for it to become a 5x4 unit, with my reading of the rulebook: the unit will have to become:

ggggcc
ggggcc
ggggcc
ggggcc
gggg

Because the rulebook says that the character displaces a model in the front rank, the formation of the unit will become like above because it says to displace one model. Therefore the unit is a 5x4, but it has the formation of a 6x5 because of the odd shape of the corpse cart.

So, from my reading, when the corpse cart leaves the unit will have to become:

ggggg
ggggg
ggggg
ggggg

And this doesn't count as a reform, because its staying in the right formation. This is a correct way of resolving the issue?

Schelle
04-09-2008, 21:28
My god, a corpse cart can join a unit, thanks for that one guys, from now on my corpse carts will be a lot more difficult to destroy. Pity that characters can not join zombie hordes.

Bob the Butcher
25-09-2008, 21:35
The Ghouls would have to be 5 wide after the cart leaves in order to maintain their rank bonuses.

Lord Zarkov
26-09-2008, 22:52
What i belive is...

gggggcc
gggggcc
gggggcc
gggggcc

That would be 7 wide unit.

ccggg
ccggg
ccggg
ccggg

That would be 5 wide unit.

Think about that.
Thats's wrong, the corpse cart is only one model and will only provide one for ranks

what you should have is more like this

gccggg
gccggg
gccggg
gccggg
g g ggg
for 5 wide

Spirit
27-09-2008, 02:36
Search Function?

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157545&highlight=corpse+cart+unit

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143527&highlight=corpse+cart+unit

and also, i believe Lord Zarkov is correct.

My god, a corpse cart can join a unit, thanks for that one guys, from now on my corpse carts will be a lot more difficult to destroy. Pity that characters can not join zombie hordes.

And the cart/necromancer even gets a look out sir roll, because they are only Unit Strength 4.

TheDarkDaff
27-09-2008, 09:12
If you are playing by the rules then the corpse cart will displace a single ghoul in the front rank. Most people will use a house rule to allow the character on a large base to count for how ever many "normal" models they would displace in a unit to keep it looking neat.

If you want it done by the rules then the unit will look like this
C= Corpse Cart G = Ghoul and -= empty space

GGGGCC
-----CC
-----CC
-----CC
GGGGG
GGGGG
GGGGG
G

And will reform to this whne the Cart leaves

GGGGG
GGGGG
GGGGG
GGGGG

Anything else is dragging up an FAQ from 2004 that GW didn't put into the rules in current edition. The reasoning goes that if they really wanted the chronicles FAQ to be valid in 7th Ed they would have put it in the BRB.

Gazak Blacktoof
27-09-2008, 12:05
The reasoning goes that if they really wanted the chronicles FAQ to be valid in 7th Ed they would have put it in the BRB.

Your reasoning.;)

TheDarkDaff
28-09-2008, 02:28
Your reasoning.;)

Care to elaborate. The big thing with a new edition is that all the rules needed to play in that edition should be available in the BRB and all errata and FAQ's should be put into the newest edtion (or at least put into the new edition's FAQ) rather than relying on an out of date and no longer available FAQ. It is perfectly reasonable to ingore all previous FAQ's.

Now my personal opinion on the matter is the Studio guys "know how it is supposed to be played" and have overlooked putting this situation into the BRB (in which case using the old FAQ is quite reasonable). But to a brand new player coming to the game it would be quite difficult to explain why we break the rule as written just because we know "this is how it is supposed to be".

If you want rules then my earlier post is correct. The reasoning behind not using the old FAQ also stands that GW did not put it in the BRB and did not mention it in the BRB's FAQ at all. They either accidentally skipped it twice or they don't want the rules to work that way. Take your pick.

xragg
28-09-2008, 03:47
If you are playing by the rules then the corpse cart will displace a single ghoul in the front rank. Most people will use a house rule to allow the character on a large base to count for how ever many "normal" models they would displace in a unit to keep it looking neat.

If you want it done by the rules then the unit will look like this
C= Corpse Cart G = Ghoul and -= empty space

GGGGCC
-----CC
-----CC
-----CC
GGGGG
GGGGG
GGGGG
G

And will reform to this whne the Cart leaves

GGGGG
GGGGG
GGGGG
GGGGG

Anything else is dragging up an FAQ from 2004 that GW didn't put into the rules in current edition. The reasoning goes that if they really wanted the chronicles FAQ to be valid in 7th Ed they would have put it in the BRB.

See, the problem I have to this is that it cant be right. Also, there are at least 2 examples (screaming bell / slann) of the unit "fillng the gap" caused by the corpse cart. The only thing is how to calculate ranks outside of those specific examples. Now here are things that screw up your RAW interpretation:

1.
GGGGCC
-----CC
---x-CC
-----CC
GGGGG
GGGGG
GGGGG
G

x is an enemy character. The enemy character totally locks down that unit so it can never move. It cant reform (no room since its center is almost where "x" is). It cant turn for the same reason. It cant move foward either. There is no reason by RAW that "x" cant be there either.

2.
...GGGGCC
x..-----CC
x..-----CC
...-----CC
...GGGGG
...GGGGG
...GGGGG
...G

In similar fashion, "x" is the start of 9 skirmishers. They charge the unit, and would have to form up like this:
..x
..xGGGGCC
..xxxxxxCC
...----xCC
...-----CC
...GGGGG
...GGGGG
...GGGGG
...G

They have to move closest to closest when charging, and then maximise models in contact.

Neither of these examples are playable and really puts into question your RAW interpretation.

Gazak Blacktoof
28-09-2008, 09:36
It is perfectly reasonable to ingore all previous FAQ's.

We find its also perfectly reasonable to not ignore them. They provide answers to a few questions that pop up regularly on the forum. People are often told to ignore the old FAQs and then the thread devolves into a 10+ page battle over definitions and syntax.

I'd rather have a rule that works and doesn't look unsightly. Call it house rule, call it an old rule but its a rule that works.

Xragg, I've never seen those arguments before but that is quite amusing.

TheDarkDaff
28-09-2008, 09:50
[QUOTE=Gazak Blacktoof;2968826]I'd rather have a rule that works and doesn't look unsightly. Call it house rule, call it an old rule but its a rule that works.[QUOTE]

I call it an old rule that should have been put into the current ruleset but wasn't.

@xragg - Your item 2 is impossible. The rules for skirmishers make them form up in a fight line which is a single line. You can't make an "L" shape so it would look like this.

..x
..xGGGGCC
..x-----CC
..x-----CC
..x-----CC
..xGGGGG
..xGGGGG
..xGGGGG
..xG

Edge
28-09-2008, 12:36
Ok, this is a quite easy answer to find...

Page 43 in vc book "The corpse cart moves and fights as a monster"

Page 58 rule book. "Monsters alwats fight individually, they can never join other models or form a unit."

So answer is, you cant join the ghoul unit with the corpse cart.

Gazak Blacktoof
28-09-2008, 12:44
I've not got the vamp book but according to those that have, a necromancer can ride the corpse cart- this turns it into a monstrous mount allowing it to join units.

The issues being discussed are also broader than just how to place a corpse cart into a unit. The same issues arise with many mounts or models on oddly sized bases in various books.

Reinnon
29-09-2008, 12:46
Ok, this is a quite easy answer to find...

Page 43 in vc book "The corpse cart moves and fights as a monster"

Page 58 rule book. "Monsters alwats fight individually, they can never join other models or form a unit."

So answer is, you cant join the ghoul unit with the corpse cart.

Add a necromancer to the corpse cart (as was mentioned in the original post) then it can join units.

Oh, and the vampire FAQ states that corpse carts are not monsters, they simply move as monster.

Darkdaff: While i can see why your arguement is right according to RaW - most people will also agree that this is the case when RaW comes up with a truly stupid result. The old FAQ create a precidence, it doesn't really matter if they are for the last edition if they focus on an issue that is the same.

VC Doke
29-09-2008, 14:15
Add a necromancer to the corpse cart (as was mentioned in the original post) then it can join units.

Oh, and the vampire FAQ states that corpse carts are not monsters, they simply move as monster.

Darkdaff: While i can see why your arguement is right according to RaW - most people will also agree that this is the case when RaW comes up with a truly stupid result. The old FAQ create a precidence, it doesn't really matter if they are for the last edition if they focus on an issue that is the same.

I'm pretty sure they're monsters. A necro and ride then if you choose and they're not chariots.

WLBjork
30-09-2008, 07:52
The rules also state that Corpse Carts are not monsters.

Page 43 of the Vampire Counts Army Book:

The Corpse Cart is a strange creation, not truely a chariot or creature. In game terms, it moves and fights as a monster.

BEEGfrog
02-10-2008, 15:50
The arguments have convinced me that the corpse cart acts as a single file wide.

Can I assume that the cavalry rule means it also counts multiple ranks deep for rank bonus?

The reference to the Slann and Screaming Bell are spurious as the way they rank up are part of their special rules in their relevant books. In fact they tend to imply the opposite as why not just say use normal ranking rules instead of half a page of rules and diagrams.

Harwammer
02-10-2008, 16:14
I was under the impression that ranks always must contain the same number of models (with the exception fo the rear rank), but files don't have any such limit. Is such I say that models in rear ranks must squidge forwards as much as possible to maintain the block formation of the unit.

Sometimes a wide base will jutt out from the side of a unit, or perhaps create an area of emptiness in a file, but this seems to be how the rules are designed to work.

Kalec
04-10-2008, 07:22
A full rank is 5 models wide. A corpse cart and 4 ghouls in the front rank constitutes a whole rank.