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Fanatic
06-09-2008, 06:07
Right now i am trying to build a fast smashing empire list that will take out any army as quickly and effectively as possible (and of cource not be so broken that it causes my enemy to spiral into depression). So far i have gotten it down to:

lord on war alter w/ speculum and ASF +1 str sword
Steam tank
1 unit of 5 IC knights
10-15 flaggelants to hold up a flank/center with the stank
2 great cannons
1 unit of 10 IC knights (for the rank + outnumber, fear banner? or ditch?)
2 mages 1 with rod of power other decked out on scrolls
2 units 0f 5 vanilla knights
1 unit of 20 swordsmasters

So does anyone think this would work and since probably not any suggestions on completeing this list. I'm open to anything from completely changing it just minor things. Also were should i put the mages?

Kalec
06-09-2008, 08:14
Cut the small IC knight unit. Grab a mounted warrior priest to lead the big unit, and give them the standard of arcane warding and full command if you can swing it. Get the armor of meteoric iron for your arch lector, he needs the defense.

Flaggies are way, way too small for heavy combat. They need to be at least 20, preferably 25 strong to do anything besides die horribly. They die easily and kill more of their own to help win combat, so a big unit is needed.

Split the swordsmen into two small units so you have a bunker for each wizard, and give each a champ to take challenges to protect the mages a little longer. Not an ideal solution, but all that your points allow for.

Also: is this 2K or 2250?

Fanatic
06-09-2008, 21:48
2250, btw the more i think about the list the more problems i see like siege weapons smashing my units and the mages being bashed so I think it might be nice to make a good old defencive army, semi magic heavy, 3 seige weapons and 2 stanks. Also are pistoliers/outriders any good?

Kalec
06-09-2008, 22:42
Your mages in infantry blocks are just as vulnerable as anyone elses mages in infantry blocks (except chaos sorcerers and their fancy chaos armor riding barded chaos steeds). Siege weapons will hurt, of course, but you have some of the best in the game to take out opposing war machines, and access to the lore of metal to disable them as well. Cheap units of knights can put the enemy on the defense if they want to protect their siege weapons while the rest of your army moves into position.

3 great cannons, 2 tanks, and the war alter will not make you any friends, but it does work.

Pistoliers are good at marchblocking while plinking off ranks from blocks of 20 or 15. Outriders are great at shooting up lightly armored elite infantry like swordmasters and black guard, and at shooting T5 monsters (they are as effective against hydras and varghulfs as great cannons are, believe it or not). Entirely different units, so pick based on what you need them to do.

Fanatic
06-09-2008, 22:55
Can outriders move and shoot or does the shoot or move rule still aply to the multi shot?

Kalec
06-09-2008, 23:41
There is no shoot or move rule concerning multi shot weapons in 7th. Outriders use repeater handguns, which are move or shoot weapons in the Empire armybook, so they cannot shoot and move. Pistoliers can move and shoot because pistols can be shot after moving. They can even multi shot because they are each armed with a brace of pistols.

Edit: I think I understand your question a little better. There is nothing about multi shot that determines whether a weapon can be shot after moving or not. The ability to move and shoot is tied to the weapon itself, not how it is fired.

Fanatic
06-09-2008, 23:54
I think i got the points worked out
Lord

Wizard Lord - rod of power and luckstone

Heoes
Battle wizard - 2 dispel scrolls
Warrior Priest - Dawn armor barbed warhorse and g weapon
Master engineer - used probably with mortar

Core
Flagellants 15
Swordsmen 20 w/ standard
- 8 handgunners
- 9 free company
spearmen 20 w/ standard
- 9 free company
spearmen 10

special
2 great cannons
5 outriders
5 Knights of the IC w/ chapion standard and fear banner
1 mortar

rare
2 steam tanks

I will try to place my bulky infantry units out first then see were there placing there strong units then place the tanks to intercept them. Same with the flaggelants.
btw the priest is going with the cavalry for the hatred.

Lord Dan
07-09-2008, 00:02
You've got 5 special choices there, chief. ;)

Drop a steam tank.

Drop the GW on your warrior priest.

Drop the mortar or the outriders.

Drop the unit of 10 spearmen.

Give your big spearmen unit a detachment of 8 handguns or crossbows. (I'd take crossbows to mix things up a bit.)

Bump the flagellants up to 20.

Boost your knights up to 7.

Take another unit of swordsmen with as close to the same set-up as your first.

Fanatic
07-09-2008, 01:08
drop a tank?:(
drop the great weapon?:confused:
why the great weapon (4pts), instead get a sheild?
For now i kinda have to keep the tank in my army because i am short models at the moment so once i get more swordsmen i might do that
Without the spearmen what do i do with the mages?

I see were your going with the extra knight, in case i loose 1 and for the outnumber (keep it 6 in the front rank and 1 in the back)

Thanks for the special unit thing.... I'm dumping the mortar for the outriders much more reliable. I only have more cavalry models right now so Ill try and get some more infantry.

Lord Dan
07-09-2008, 01:25
You don't need two tanks. A good general can do with one what an inexperienced general can do with two. Two is overkill, and not much fun to play against.

GW on a mount only confers +1 strength according to the new rules, and you're still striking last. You're much better off taking a shield and a cheap magic weapon.

According to the changes I gave you you'll still have a unit of spearmen. I was referring to:

"spearmen 20 w/ standard
- 9 free company
spearmen 10"

I assumed the second mention of spearmen was a detachment of 10, which I suggested you got rid of.

With regards to the extra knights- you got it. :) I sometimes even run them 7 across if the field permits and if the unit I'm charging is wide enough. If you put the Warrior Priest in with them you've got a unit of 8, 6 in front and 2 in back. This way you're still getting the same number of attacks even if one or two die to the inevitable arrow or bullet.

Fanatic
07-09-2008, 01:40
Thanks for all the advice the only remaining Q is about the mages, do I just let them wander out of line of sight or do I put them in a small unit that will stay back and give them cover. Im leaning towards the first and maybe put them on a horse so they can roam farther, but I have never tried doing that.

Kalec
07-09-2008, 03:34
Master engineer is not worth the points or the character slot. Grab another priest or mage with doomfire ring or staff of sorcery or aldreds casket, all good options. You need magic defense or you will be picked apart by elves and daemons and tarpited by the undead. Dropping the alter lector hurts, because he is pretty durable, pumps out 2 dispel die and 3 bound spells. The wiz lord has more powerful spells, but less reliable, and is far more frail. Van Horstmanns on the lord wouldn't hurt either. Bumping the scroll caddy to a level 2 would make him quite a bit more powerful, if you can afford it.

Mages out of los will not be using their spells very often. This is fine for a scroll caddy, but a horrid waste of a wizard lord. Give the wiz lord a warhorse and stick him in an infatry block. This keeps him rather safe, and makes him fast enough to leave his bunker if he needs to. Ditto for the battle wizard.

Two tanks are much more then twice as effective as one. People will hate you for it, but if you want power then you really should take a pair. Being able to cover each other makes all the difference, and it takes twice as much firepower to stop two tanks, but only one tank to destroy an entire gunlines worth of siege weapons.

Fanatic
07-09-2008, 04:58
I already ditched the mortar and engineer and have
Wiz Lord, sticking in a unit, probably spearmen then handgunners
2 battle wizards lvl 2 (1 is scrolled out), on warhorses
1 warrior priest priest horse exc.
20 spearmen w/ standard and detachment now 6 handgunners
20 swordsmen w/ standard and detachment
15 flagellants
7 IC knights
6 outriders
2 stanks
2 g cannons

all the specifics are the same as the last list besides were noted
Im probably not using a war alter because of not only monetary restrictions but also because i dont like the spells too much and i already have 2 tanks and knights to do its job. 10 power dice 7 dispel, rod of power, that seems good for, now I hope...

Makarion
07-09-2008, 05:17
If you want to be "ultra competative" with the units you have shown, I see little alternative to this character setup, with minor variations.

Arch Lector, war altar, shield
VHS, Dawn Armour (rerollable 1+), Biting Blade, Doomfire Ring

Warrior Priest
Barded warhorse, shield
Shroud of Magnus [assuming you want a big block of IC knights]
[Consider Aldred's Casket and Sigil of Sigmar as an alternative]

Battle Wizard
Level 2. Barded warhorse. Lore of Beasts
Rod of Power, Powerstone

Battle Wizard
Level 2. Barded warhorse.
Dispel Scroll, Dispel Scroll


Of course, this is assuming you're looking forward of some of that hatred people reserve for this sort of list. You'll join the pantheon of the Chaos Dwarves with 8 bolt throwers and 2 Earthshakers, any of the two-dragon armies, etc.

Makarion
07-09-2008, 05:20
I already ditched the mortar and engineer and have
Wiz Lord, sticking in a unit, probably spearmen then handgunners
2 battle wizards lvl 2 (1 is scrolled out), on warhorses
1 warrior priest priest horse exc.
20 spearmen w/ standard and detachment now 6 handgunners
20 swordsmen w/ standard and detachment
15 flagellants
7 IC knights
6 outriders
2 stanks
2 g cannons

all the specifics are the same as the last list besides were noted
Im probably not using a war alter because of not only monetary restrictions but also because i dont like the spells too much and i already have 2 tanks and knights to do its job. 10 power dice 7 dispel, rod of power, that seems good for, now I hope...

The Lore of Light is mandatory for the Empire in the current environment, given the tendency of your average human to run away screaming at the first sight of am imp or skeleton. The war altar lets you cast the only ItP spell the Empire has access to once per turn, with no chance you won't get it on your Wizard Lord.

Kalec
07-09-2008, 06:59
snip

Of course, this is assuming you're looking forward of some of that hatred people reserve for this sort of list. You'll join the pantheon of the Chaos Dwarves with 8 bolt throwers and 2 Earthshakers, any of the two-dragon armies, etc.

I see very little that is over the top or overpowered or whatever phrase you like to use with any of those characters.

VC can take 4 casters that are also competent fighters with armor no mage except chaos sorcerers can match.

Daemons need no introduction.

High Elves get a level 4 mage that casts a lot of spells with irresistible force, lords on the best dragon in the game with a lance that gives them S7 on the charge, and have ASF to boot in case their dragon lord somehow gets charged (or someone else had the audacity to pay for ASF).

Dark Elves can make a lord that is neigh indestructible and still a competent fighter, with hatred, for a bargain-bin price and mages that make battle wizards look like children.

But if an empire player dares to take a full complement of characters meant to keep his entire army from running away every time they see a skeleton, or getting wiped out by a greater daemon or dragon-riding lord that your cannons couldn't kill, he is some sort of monster.

Makarion
07-09-2008, 17:26
It maybe has more to do with the fact that I feel that my beloved Empire and it's regiments has become utterly obsolete in the current absurd monster-fest. Only by using the extreme edge of the army book are they a viable choice against what is generally considered normal opposition. Somehow, I don't think that's the same kind of miniature game.

Guess I might need to try out historic miniature games. Now, if only players existed for those...

Fanatic
07-09-2008, 17:44
Im thinking of having the lord take lore of shadows or death while my little wizards have fire. With the rod of power can you store dispell dice then pull them out as power dice?

Makarion
07-09-2008, 21:18
Im thinking of having the lord take lore of shadows or death while my little wizards have fire. With the rod of power can you store dispell dice then pull them out as power dice?

Yes; you can store up to three dispel dice and use them as power dice in your next magic phase. You can also store power dice and use them as dispel dice in your next phase, which might come in handy against armies like Vampire Counts.

Note, that the more dice you store, the greater the chance of failure at the attempt.