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Ambu
07-09-2008, 12:51
A friend of mine is going to start to run regular tourneys at our FLGS to get old and new excited about the mainstay games, along with a few of the specialist games (Mordhiem, BloodBowl, BFG) and has this crazy idea for the mainstay games.

He wants to implement a sidebar rule like those in CCG tourneys. Basically for those how don't know what that is, they get X amount of cards they can switch between ames to help bolster there chances versus other decks.

His idea with this to WH40K and WHFB is this. On a 1000 pt 40k game, for example, you get a 250pt sidebar. 1500 you get a 500pt sidebar. He says it will allow people to tke on a both Nid-zillas, MEQs, etc.

My thoughts is that this would be a logistical nightmare. Please answer the poll and comment.

Adra
07-09-2008, 12:55
Cant see a poll but..

...i agree. Sounds a pain in the ass to be honest. Complexity isnt always a mark of creativity.

Gabhan
07-09-2008, 12:56
Not so Bad.
on 1500 pts. Everybody has to come with a List of 2000 pts. and may only use 1500pts of them.

But in Card Games, sidebar is often used bwtween matches. So you play best of three, and after match one you see, that you miss something and switch cards.
If you play WH40K on best of three its not an logistical nightmare, but a time problem.

Sidstyler
07-09-2008, 13:01
Yeah, for a CCG it works, but not so much for a tournament. You basically give the players permission to tailor their lists for their opponent, and they should really be encouraged to take "all-comers" lists instead. If you weren't ready for MC or tank-heavy armies then you shouldn't be given an opportunity to cram as many anti-tank weapons as possible into your list, take enough to deal with them in the first place.

Ambu
07-09-2008, 13:01
Not so Bad.
on 1500 pts. Everybody has to come with a List of 2000 pts. and may only use 1500pts of them.

But in Card Games, sidebar is often used bwtween matches. So you play best of three, and after match one you see, that you miss something and switch cards.
If you play WH40K on best of three its not an logistical nightmare, but a time problem.

His Idea is when the matches are posted you get 15 minutes to add, subtract the points needed from you list/sidebar, and opponent has to approve the math before the match starts. And yes the premise is a 1500pt game you build a 1500l list and a 500 list of suppliments you can switch in/out of.

Ambu
07-09-2008, 13:03
Yeah, for a CCG it works, but not so much for a tournament. You basically give the players permission to tailor their lists for their opponent, and they should really be encouraged to take "all-comers" lists instead. If you weren't ready for MC or tank-heavy armies then you shouldn't be given an opportunity to cram as many anti-tank weapons as possible into your list, take enough to deal with them in the first place.

His gripe on this is that he says some list are hard to build to the "all-comers", I disagree with this.

ehlijen
07-09-2008, 13:09
It's better to balance the armies through a variety of scenarios requiring different qualities in units for success than to try and allow players to tailor after learning what they're facing.

Templar Ben
07-09-2008, 13:10
How about you make little groups of 250 points each? Then when you go to the table you and your opponent are told what the armies are. You are then able to pick 6 of the groups to face that army without knowing what he is picking. Then you are ready to face that Nidzilla list but he could take the knowledge of you being Space Marine to ensure he is running all guants, stealers and warriors.

That would allow for some tailoring but since you only have 8 total fire teams to choose from the selection process is easy.

To ensure the game moves quickly I would say that you have 1 minute to turn in the unit numbers for the list or you default to the first 6.

Master Stark
07-09-2008, 13:14
It's not a new idea, and it's been used quite succesfully before in many tournaments.

The idea is not complex. All you do is write two lists. The first thousand points of each list is identical, and the last five hundred is different. You choose before the game begins (and before seeing your opponents list) which of your two lists you will field.

So it makes for an interesting 'second guessing' game. My opponent is Tyranids, and I'm playing Marines. Will he go for the Nidzilla list, expecting me to take an anti-horde list? Or will he think I'm expecting Nidzilla and fill my list with plasma and lascannons, so he'll take a horde list?

Eryx_UK
07-09-2008, 13:15
That idea works well for CCG's but not so well IMO for a wargame. What I might suggest is that before it actually starts, yur club playtests the idea for a couple weeks just to see if it works and whether it is or isn't a book keeping nightmare.

Ambu
07-09-2008, 13:18
How about you make little groups of 250 points each? Then when you go to the table you and your opponent are told what the armies are. You are then able to pick 6 of the groups to face that army without knowing what he is picking. Then you are ready to face that Nidzilla list but he could take the knowledge of you being Space Marine to ensure he is running all guants, stealers and warriors.


Problem I see with this idea is some units cost way more then this. Hell a squad of 10 CSM Terminators is 300 w/o any wargear.

Master Stark
07-09-2008, 13:20
That idea works well for CCG's but not so well IMO for a wargame. What I might suggest is that before it actually starts, yur club playtests the idea for a couple weeks just to see if it works and whether it is or isn't a book keeping nightmare.

The only book-keeping involved is for the TO, making sure that the sideboards make a legal army, and don't go over the alloted points.

Eryx_UK
07-09-2008, 13:24
The only book-keeping involved is for the TO, making sure that the sideboards make a legal army, and don't go over the alloted points.

Yes, but if he's planning the same thing with all the games, not just Warhammer, it can be a lot of paperwork and organisation.

Eldoriath
07-09-2008, 13:29
I have actually been to a tourney that used that system. I thought it was 1300p mainarmy and two 400p blocks to choose from. I ex in block A you have 3 uinits of tacticals, and in block B you have two units of terminators. You can choose either block, but not mix between the blocks. Also, a part of a block couldn't be a dedicated transport for a unit in the mainstay part.

This gives you an army of about 1300p balanced, and 400p of specialisation against GEQ and MEQ. It worked out really well i think.

qwertywraith
07-09-2008, 14:26
I have actually been to a tourney that used that system. I thought it was 1300p mainarmy and two 400p blocks to choose from. I ex in block A you have 3 uinits of tacticals, and in block B you have two units of terminators. You can choose either block, but not mix between the blocks. Also, a part of a block couldn't be a dedicated transport for a unit in the mainstay part.

This gives you an army of about 1300p balanced, and 400p of specialisation against GEQ and MEQ. It worked out really well i think.

That I like.

I voted against this. As has been stated, the sidebar system works in games like Magic because you have a limited sidebar, and you play best 2 out of 3 games. So after your first game you can sub in new cards.

The sidebar though works differently in M:TG because in that game you may find yourself against an opponent you can not deal with. It's not just a matter of monstrous creatures in 40K, it's a matter of a card that totally screws your game.

In 40K you always take equipment that can deal with AV14, or monstrous creatures, or hordes. A sidebar for 40K really just seems like it would be way more benefit to some armies that are easier to tailor (as well as benefiting players who have more models). 500 points can change a marine army from a shooty force to a fully mechanised CC army.

Templar Ben
07-09-2008, 15:46
Problem I see with this idea is some units cost way more then this. Hell a squad of 10 CSM Terminators is 300 w/o any wargear.

You could allow them to make one choice that is 500 points instead of two that are 250. That is actually going to make selection faster as he has 5 to choose among with the 500 point selection being worth 2 of the others.