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Helsing
08-09-2008, 05:08
The Old Ones.

In the 40k background, the Old Ones were one of the first sentient races (other than the Necrontyr) in the galaxy. They seeded and terra formed Earth, thus creating humanity. They also created Eldar, the Orks and what is known as the lizardmen. The Eldar and Orks (who were then intelligence and very technologically advanced) spread to new worlds. It is possible that in the Fall the Eldar on Earth were isolated and devolved to become the Elves, retaining their mental prowess. The Orks who relied on a mushroom for their intelect quickly ran out and also devolved, but by this time had spread to several worlds. So there, Warhammer and 40k are exactly the same.

Helsing.

Ghudra
08-09-2008, 05:24
Oh no...not again. :rolleyes:

Koryphaus
08-09-2008, 05:31
Yep, looks like it.

devolutionary
08-09-2008, 05:32
Have you used the search function to see how much this has been done to death and equally refuted outright by GW itself? Because, yeah, it has.

pinegulf
08-09-2008, 05:55
Even if it were, so what?

Malevon
08-09-2008, 06:00
I'm almost tempted to respond, but I know that this will never stop if I do.

Hive Mind 33
08-09-2008, 06:18
I dont know if your trolling or really just failed that much.

Norminator
08-09-2008, 06:22
A little part of me just died.

Luckywallace
08-09-2008, 06:30
Orcs and Orks are obviously not the same.

Orks mekboyz/painboyz etc. have their knowledge hard-wired into their DNA, it's not going to "go", hence if Orcs really were Orks then they would be the most technologically advanced race in WHFB.

While I find the idea of Ork Dreadnoughts attacking Empire Spearmen pretty funny it doesn't actually happen and hence almost any WHFB - 40K linked theory falls apart.

Malevon
08-09-2008, 06:51
It falls apart because GW says it isn't so. End of story. GW is the master of their own IP.

Now just ignore him. If you don't believe in him, he can't hurt you.

Khaine's Messenger
08-09-2008, 07:07
Eldar on Earth were isolated and devolved to become the Elves, retaining their mental prowess.

Even if 40k and FB took place in the same universe, FB is neither the past nor the future of 40k. To say that there were Eldar (or Elves) or even Orks (or Orcs) on Earth is a bit misleading. Maybe there were (or will be--da Ragna Ork iz still young!). 40k history is silent on that subject. But the Warhammer Fantasy planet is most definitely not Earth, despite a few continental outlines and highly stereotyped distributions of cultural trappings. There are plenty of fantasy settings that aren't Earth, and WHF happens to reside on one of them.

The rest of you: calm down. :p

Allen
08-09-2008, 07:14
The Old Ones.

In the 40k background (...) They seeded and terra formed Earth, thus creating humanity

No, that's WHFB background. In Warhammer Fantasy a species of sentient and powerful beings arrived on "shining ships" on the world, modifing its climate and creating new species. Much later the Slann priest generations that didn't know them in person called them "The Old Ones".

In WH40K background the Old Ones are one of the first sentient species of the universe. They created the Eldar, the Krorks (now called Orks) and a lot of different species now extinct just as living bio-weapons to use against the C'Tan and the Necrons...but not humanity.



They also created Eldar, the Orks and what is known as the lizardmen

You're mixing things. Eldar and Orks are WH40K species; Lizardmen are a Warhammer Fantasy one.
There are two possibility:

1) The WH40K "Old Ones" and the WHFB "Old Ones" are the same species. In the last edition rulebooks of both fantasy and 40k is implied that the Empyrean (the chaos dimension, the immaterial plane) is directly connected to a lot of material planes, or universes. It's possible that the two Old Ones are the same species of different universes, or one species that master the voyages between parallel material dimensions.

2) The WH40K "Old Ones" and the WHFB "Old Ones" are not the same species. They are different beings that ended up with an identical name.


The Eldar and Orks (who were then intelligence and very technologically advanced) spread to new worlds. It is possible that in the Fall the Eldar on Earth were isolated and devolved to become the Elves, retaining their mental prowess. The Orks who relied on a mushroom for their intelect quickly ran out and also devolved, but by this time had spread to several worlds. So there, Warhammer and 40k are exactly the same.

Ahem. No, I'm sorry.
You're assuming that Warhammer Fantasy is based on Earth...but, you know, in Warhammer 40.000 mankind came from Earth. Our planet, now called Holy Terra, was not plagued by greenskins WAAAGHs! in ancient times, nor it was riddled by elven nations and/or dwarves.

I'll give you a bulletproof solid fact that demonstrate that the two universes are not linked: Games Workshop, the company that created them and owns their Intellectual Propriety, said clearly that the two universes ARE NOT linked.


That's all you get.
And, by the way, I'm Alpharius. But hey, everyone in this days seems to be him.

Gorbad Ironclaw
08-09-2008, 07:15
I think the phrase you are looking for is "similar, but not the same".
That pretty much sums up the entire thing.

DapperAnarchist
08-09-2008, 07:45
And the Slaan and Slaani are about as same as Ork and Orc - that is, not really once you get over the skin colour/etc. I respect the reference to the mushroom though. Snotlings are the Old Ones!

HiveFleetEzekial
08-09-2008, 09:46
The Slaan were/are the 40k equivelant of Lizardmen (which is what he was trying to mention, Allen, with 'what is known as the lizardmen ' ).


Yes, GW's official stance on it now, is that they are entirely different settings, having nothing to do with each other, other than similarity of names and gods.


However, there *is* some truth to it all. When they first started, one was apart of the other (WFB being a small, very much secluded world within the galaxy of 40k. none could get in and none could get out, supposedly, save the influence of gods. And apparently one primarch). Since then though, GW have slowly been removing all of the major references between the two, till now it's practically non-existant. You have to go over the entire stock of fluff with a micron sized fine-toothed comb to find anything at all.

slaanghoul
08-09-2008, 09:49
OK I think I'll try to justify how the two worlds are connected and WHFB planet is actually earth. Please this is just a justification, not my true view .. . this is just for fun.


The current timeline in WHFB is actually 35 million BC or any millions BC ago( don't matter too much). Old ones came created earth, populated the planet, etc. . . we know the story. The great war happened and Old ones left and before they left, they cause a warp storm to prevent others from final Earth. Now current WHFB time line (many millions BC ago), in 3,000 years (still many millions BC ago) End of Time is here. Chaos ruled Earth, killed almost everything. That's everything.... skaven, orcs, elves, dwarves, undead, etc. . . . The only anti-chaos forces are a few Slaan and some lizard men back in Lustria. All Earth are now consumed by Chaos and mortal chaos worshiper.
The great Slaans decided to do the final solution and re shape the continent and use the mega-psychic fire bomb left by Old ones. The Slaan knew that everything on Earth will be destroyed, wipe out but at least in the Cosmic grand scale. . . Chaos will not have Earth and it will be neutral for everybody. . . a new start and do over sort off.

So the Mega psychic fire bomb killed almost all creatures with semi-intellect and higher with a psychic blast and fire bomb like Nuclear explosion that took out all of Lustia. This cause mega tsunami and destroyed everything els that. Before the Slaan did this final solution act, they have keep a few of their "good" pets that are below semi-intellect such as Stegadone, Terradone, Carnisourse, and all the Dinosource species in a special chamber that is Fire proof, but not psychic proof .. . but since they are below semi-intellect, they are immune anyway.

So 5,000 years later after the final solution.... (still millions BC ago), Earth continent is like what we learn in science class millions of years ago. The plants and some animals have repopulated earth. The Chamber open and release the Lizardmen "pets" to rule the Earth. . .. and evolutions starts . .. and millions of years later .. . a comet hit earth and the age of Lizardmen pet ended and the raise of hairy creatures starts .. . . man follow after that .. a few millions years later. And the Geography memory of the Old World starts to creep back . . as the magic of the Slaan continent shifts back to its shape, hence our modern day Earth looks like the Old warhammer world.

OK, so I guess it can fit with the same earth theory.

nazrag
08-09-2008, 11:19
OK I think I'll try to justify how the two worlds are connected and WHFB planet is actually earth. Please this is just a justification, not my true view .. . this is just for fun.


The current timeline in WHFB is actually 35 million BC or any millions BC ago( don't matter too much). Old ones came created earth, populated the planet, etc. . . we know the story. The great war happened and Old ones left and before they left, they cause a warp storm to prevent others from final Earth. Now current WHFB time line (many millions BC ago), in 3,000 years (still many millions BC ago) End of Time is here. Chaos ruled Earth, killed almost everything. That's everything.... skaven, orcs, elves, dwarves, undead, etc. . . . The only anti-chaos forces are a few Slaan and some lizard men back in Lustria. All Earth are now consumed by Chaos and mortal chaos worshiper.
The great Slaans decided to do the final solution and re shape the continent and use the mega-psychic fire bomb left by Old ones. The Slaan knew that everything on Earth will be destroyed, wipe out but at least in the Cosmic grand scale. . . Chaos will not have Earth and it will be neutral for everybody. . . a new start and do over sort off.

So the Mega psychic fire bomb killed almost all creatures with semi-intellect and higher with a psychic blast and fire bomb like Nuclear explosion that took out all of Lustia. This cause mega tsunami and destroyed everything els that. Before the Slaan did this final solution act, they have keep a few of their "good" pets that are below semi-intellect such as Stegadone, Terradone, Carnisourse, and all the Dinosource species in a special chamber that is Fire proof, but not psychic proof .. . but since they are below semi-intellect, they are immune anyway.

So 5,000 years later after the final solution.... (still millions BC ago), Earth continent is like what we learn in science class millions of years ago. The plants and some animals have repopulated earth. The Chamber open and release the Lizardmen "pets" to rule the Earth. . .. and evolutions starts . .. and millions of years later .. . a comet hit earth and the age of Lizardmen pet ended and the raise of hairy creatures starts .. . . man follow after that .. a few millions years later. And the Geography memory of the Old World starts to creep back . . as the magic of the Slaan continent shifts back to its shape, hence our modern day Earth looks like the Old warhammer world.

OK, so I guess it can fit with the same earth theory.

You are making fun of scientologists aren't you? At least that's how I read it :p

slaanghoul
08-09-2008, 11:38
You are making fun of scientologists aren't you? At least that's how I read it :p

OMG I hope Tom Cruse and John Trovolta doesn't read War Seer or I'm in big trouble!

Just kidding .. . . I don't even know anything about Scientology except there are some ET stuff going on with their religion and some device that measure your happyness balance.

heretics bane
08-09-2008, 16:22
A little part of me just died.

How much is left of us now..

All your ideas have been talked about,re-talked about,dragged into the street and shot,re-shot,buried,grave robbed

Try the search button, go on it dosnt bite..

PondaNagura
08-09-2008, 16:51
other than the races being absed on the same archeotypes, the game universes are no longer connected. they may have been once long ago to explain away certain fluff poiunts. but have since become their own thing. like all the tenchi universe series...same characters, but different iterations/timelines.

the only vestige that might still hark back to when the games were united is the old ones warp gate that collapsed around the northern wastes in WHFB, and the webway gate the Emperor was tapping into prior to the heresy.

Reinnon
08-09-2008, 17:08
GW offical position is that the worlds are seperate. Chaos is the only real "link" between the two.

I like to think that they are totally seperate universes that both experience Chaos. There are quite a few key differences:

1) Eldar and Elven Gods - same name, but the warhammer ones are alive with Slannesh present. Clear contradiction to the 40K version.

2) Orcs lack the technological ability of the Orks. In 40K even feral orks develop basic weapons via Mekboyz - Orcs don't. The description of greenskins is subtly, but importantly different.

3) Some key differences exist within the daemon books - most notable is the description of fateweaver.

While their are some things that seem similar - like the "power fist" that dark elves could get and the old ones, they can be seen as inside jokes.

Of course, GW might say that the same old ones that the necrons fought are the same old ones that created the lizardmen. I personally would like this as i think its a pretty cool idea, but until they do the 40K old ones are not the same as the fantasy old ones.

Oh, and Sigmar is not a missing primarch.

bobbles
08-09-2008, 17:32
Now just ignore him. If you don't believe in him, he can't hurt you.

They said that about the stick

Fire Harte
08-09-2008, 18:10
Well, has anyone mentioned the ork regenerative capabilities yet?

Because if they were anything alike then the orcs would rule the planet, simple as!


But yeah, they are absolutely the same, and your comparisons are absolute proof!

:eyebrows:

Messiah
08-09-2008, 18:39
This again, eh?

Well the short answer is:

Yes they were. However GW separated them, and have an official stance that is in disagreement with the former fluff. Therefore no longer.

Brother Siccarius
08-09-2008, 19:23
GW puts in nods to Sci-Fi in fantasy and fantasy in Sci-fi, it's the hip new (actually very, very old) trend with fiction. Sometimes Fantasy takes place with some parts of Sci-fi, but that doesn't mean that it is Sci-fi. They put in nods to amuse players, not to say that they are the same! They even state that they aren't the same!

This is why we can't have nice things!

Lothlanathorian
08-09-2008, 19:48
At least this didn't turn into a crazy flame war yet. Normally, by this point, men are dying in the streets, orphans are crying and Warseer's threads run red with the blood of nerds.

Cavalier
08-09-2008, 20:38
As I understand it, GW wants to keep the two officially seperate for IP purposes. In other words, they can license the properties out seperately. In that sense, it is a wise business decision to keep the two as "seperate" universes (wink wink).

Jervis: "I swear. They are totally seperate." nudge nudge "Not the same place at all."

It wouldn't do to have the Dawn of War guys throw in some fantasy battle stuff into their next game, especially when they're trying to license the fantasy stuff to another company.

So, regardless of how similar the two may seem, there will never be an "official" connection between them. Though the hints are there.

sydbridges
08-09-2008, 20:47
At least this didn't turn into a crazy flame war yet. Normally, by this point, men are dying in the streets, orphans are crying and Warseer's threads run red with the blood of nerds.

...But blood makes the grass grow.

...Fine, I'll put down the hatchet.

...Spoilsport.

Getting back to topic, I take GW's word on it when they say the two universe are no longer connected. However, I think you're missing an obvious link between the Lord of the Rings and Warhammer 40k. After all, there are orcs or orks in both and eldar/elves, too. And people. In both, there are gods that created many of the sentient races, too.

Fideru
08-09-2008, 21:42
You owe me a few dollars.

One dollar per brain cell.

You break 'em, you buy 'em.

Grimbad
09-09-2008, 00:28
Orcs and Orks are obviously not the same.

Orks mekboyz/painboyz etc. have their knowledge hard-wired into their DNA, it's not going to "go", hence if Orcs really were Orks then they would be the most technologically advanced race in WHFB.

While I find the idea of Ork Dreadnoughts attacking Empire Spearmen pretty funny it doesn't actually happen and hence almost any WHFB - 40K linked theory falls apart.

The conditions on Gorkamorka led to an ork society without warbosses, where meks were in charge, partially due to the situation and partially (iirc) due to the radiation from the crashed hulk. Can we not assume that the opposite is possible too? Maybe the first Orks that landed on the Old World were contaminated by warpstone and their genes were damaged, leading to orks without the inbred knowledge.

I don't really mind the universes being separated, but it's fun to think about.

Kronos
09-09-2008, 00:40
As mentioned in a thread (exactly like this one) a few eeks ago I'm all for the idea of the 40k universe being inside a gem/locket/crystal ball.

Obviously just a fun thought, and really really doesn't need to be talked about anymore imo.

Anyway, if warhammer world was in the 40k universe we would know were the squats have been hiding ;)

Gorbad Ironclaw
09-09-2008, 05:56
The thing I don't understand is where as there might be some similarity between some of the races, how does a world with elves, humans, orcs, dwarfs, chaos, lizardmen, skavens, ogres, undead etc. fit into 40k?

It doesn't match any other fluff in 40k, and even if we assume it was present in the 40k universe, it obviously doesn't have any real impact on the Warhammer.
There are too many differences (For instance elves are massively different from Eldars, with a compeletly different creation myth, motivation, society, there gods are alive, etc.), and 40k would just overpower Warhammer if they actually interacted.

MvS
09-09-2008, 09:38
Sometimes I feel that the Warseer 'Search' function is like a complete and working STC database sitting right there in front of us, but everyone seems to have forgotten what it is, let alone how to use it... :(

This topic has been discussed more than almost any other. Certainly that doesn't mean new discoveries or ideas can't be chatted about, but at least take a glance through what has been written time and time again before starting a new thread about it.

Every single point on this thread has been covered before. Multiple times. In great detail.

Searches don't really take that long. I mean if you can use Google you can use the Warseer search function.

Take a look.

MrBigMr
09-09-2008, 10:52
Why hasn't anyone mentioned WHFB chainswords? Liber Chaotica talks about them. And not in a "I had a vision of an iron monster with a blade of running teeth" but as in "this sort of weapons have been reported used by Chaos warriors from the North and I have seen few with my own eyes and held them in my hands."


I think the subject is double edged. At one point, GW surely tries to split the two, not only so they can develope both in their own way, but also so that they can sell the license to both Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 as seperate items and not as a one set. But I think that at the same time the developers still play around with the idea the world are united and drop little eastern eggs here and there just to get the fan(atic)s to go berserk. A little like how Malal is no more, but here and there there are still hints to him.

TheBigBadWolf
09-09-2008, 11:08
The Old Ones.

In the 40k background, the Old Ones were one of the first sentient races (other than the Necrontyr) in the galaxy. They seeded and terra formed Earth, thus creating humanity. They also created Eldar, the Orks and what is known as the lizardmen. The Eldar and Orks (who were then intelligence and very technologically advanced) spread to new worlds. It is possible that in the Fall the Eldar on Earth were isolated and devolved to become the Elves, retaining their mental prowess. The Orks who relied on a mushroom for their intelect quickly ran out and also devolved, but by this time had spread to several worlds. So there, Warhammer and 40k are exactly the same.

Helsing.

:rolleyes: just :rolleyes:

Whitehorn
09-09-2008, 11:08
About as logic as 'They both have humans!!!'

Born Again
09-09-2008, 11:33
Actually, while we all scoff and say how GW have seperated the two, look in WD341, pg 24. Alessio Cavatore is talking about the special characters in the new Daemons books, and says: "Make no mistake, these are the same daemons - Skulltaker is the same being no matter what planet or battlefield he strides across". So, in some ways, they are linked, but maybe not as simply as Warhammer Fantasy is on a world in 40k.

slaanghoul
09-09-2008, 11:44
Sometimes I feel that the Warseer 'Search' function is like a complete and working STC database sitting right there in front of us, but everyone seems to have forgotten what it is, let alone how to use it... :(

This topic has been discussed more than almost any other. Certainly that doesn't mean new discoveries or ideas can't be chatted about, but at least take a glance through what has been written time and time again before starting a new thread about it.

Every single point on this thread has been covered before. Multiple times. In great detail.

Searches don't really take that long. I mean if you can use Google you can use the Warseer search function.

Take a look.


True, but the topic is such a hit that ppl like to keep it fresh and talk about it. Even if the OP search it and he feels like the issue needs to be brought up again because of new discovery or at least the OP think it is new to him.

Old to you because you have been around, new to some. Beside, if it is that boring and old, there wouldn't be so many respond I think.

slaanghoul
09-09-2008, 11:56
I think the bottom line is, there are too much of the same connections between the two universe to dismiss that it is not the same universe. Yeah yeah, Eldar gods are dead in 40k and Orks have dna in them that can make guns, why are the Elves gods still alive w/ Slaanesh and why can't Orcs make guns . . . but lets look at the big picture . .. . They're more alike than not.

LexxBomb
09-09-2008, 12:35
if you have documented proof of GW publishing that tha two gamming universes are not linked then provide then or otherwise shut up with GW says otherwise.

a person speaking at Games day is not evidence because:
1. evidence of such has NEVER been disributed
2. just personal bveliewfs of new staff members.
3. The fact that they were Originaly linmked IS Evidence that they were linked andf CANNOT be ignored or written out. It would be like future generations saying that because Germany never had a Nazi Party because its formaltion and literature is outlawed in germany now.

Either Provide documentable evidence or shut up

oh and inhouse jokes are evidence of a link (even if a small one)

Azriel45
09-09-2008, 15:02
hmm. i believe this has already been said... but... iirc GW intended them to be linked in the very very beginning and then decided against it. And while there are some similarities the two universes are not linked. why? because GW said so.


Actually, while we all scoff and say how GW have seperated the two, look in WD341, pg 24. Alessio Cavatore is talking about the special characters in the new Daemons books, and says: "Make no mistake, these are the same daemons - Skulltaker is the same being no matter what planet or battlefield he strides across". So, in some ways, they are linked, but maybe not as simply as Warhammer Fantasy is on a world in 40k.

This does not mean a direct link. It could simply be that the two universes exist in alternate or parallel realities. and the warp is simply an underlying medium that permeates all universes.

MvS
09-09-2008, 15:19
True, but the topic is such a hit that ppl like to keep it fresh and talk about it. Even if the OP search it and he feels like the issue needs to be brought up again because of new discovery or at least the OP think it is new to him.
Of course. If we don't know something we might assume it's new. But then my point was that a question can be answered by looking through the existing notes rather than asking the identical question every couple of months.

This question has a draw for many GW enthusiasts similar to the draw questions of gun control and religion have for everyone else. Everyone has an opinion they want to share. In this case, however, all the answers have already been provided, making me wonder why we still don't have a 'sticky' thread:

1. The universes are separate in terms of licensing.

2. The universes are separate in terms of physical situation - the Warhammer world is not Terra X-Million years ago and nor is it a world in the Eye of Terror.

3. Different writers sometimes include nods and winks to the 'other' imagery, sometimes as a joke just because it's fun and sometimes, as with Liber Chaotica, because a decision maker wants to draw interest from fan's of the 'other' imagery that wouldn't normally be there perhaps.

4. We can say that the universes are linked in a Michael Moorecock/Sliders kind of way, where there are multiple universes (not just galaxies - Universes) where Chaos touches because Chaos is part of the Warp and the Warp isn't 'just' a parallel dimension 'like any other', but is instead the Ultimate Other - the cement that binds all possibilities together and the buffer that generally keeps them apart (until holes are ripped into it).

5. Following on from that, we can say that the galaxy with the Imperium and the Eye of Terror is the most important feature in the 40K universe and the Warhammer world is the most important feature in the universe that it occupies.

WrYpoRrY
09-09-2008, 19:42
Alright calm down everyone. If we ignore this, it'll go away.
By the way, yes, I'm Alpharius too, and so is he. And her. And them.

Lothlanathorian
09-09-2008, 21:21
so, does this topic ever pop up in the WHFB Background forum? I think that is where we should start sending these crazies.

Koryphaus
10-09-2008, 02:05
By the way, yes, I'm Alpharius too, and so is he. And her. And them.

I'm Brian and so is my wife!

devolutionary
10-09-2008, 02:19
if you have documented proof of GW publishing that tha two gamming universes are not linked then provide then or otherwise shut up with GW says otherwise.

a person speaking at Games day is not evidence because:
1. evidence of such has NEVER been disributed
2. just personal bveliewfs of new staff members.
3. The fact that they were Originaly linmked IS Evidence that they were linked andf CANNOT be ignored or written out. It would be like future generations saying that because Germany never had a Nazi Party because its formaltion and literature is outlawed in germany now.

Either Provide documentable evidence or shut up

oh and inhouse jokes are evidence of a link (even if a small one)

Unsupported information from Rogue Trader and early Warhammer can hardly be held as irrefutable in this current era. Games Workshop neither confirms nor denies from an official standpoint. Developers have stated in interviews at games days that there is no longer any link, And finally, evidence is not proof.

Now learn to argue like a rational individual in a communal setting or, as you oh so eloquently put it, shut up.

shadowtemplar16
10-09-2008, 02:58
i cant wait for the Inquisition to get to the old world and declare the planet to be destroyed.... there goes fantasy....

MvS
10-09-2008, 08:26
so, does this topic ever pop up in the WHFB Background forum?
So frequently I think the fantasy forum has a Sticky thread about it.


i cant wait for the Inquisition to get to the old world and declare the planet to be destroyed.... there goes fantasy....
This possibility was in large part why the universes were separated so many years back, other than for business reasons. ;)

EDIT

I found the link to the Fantasy Forum's FAQ on this issue. Take a look: http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106051

LexxBomb
10-09-2008, 14:12
Unsupported information from Rogue Trader and early Warhammer can hardly be held as irrefutable in this current era. Games Workshop neither confirms nor denies from an official standpoint. Developers have stated in interviews at games days that there is no longer any link, And finally, evidence is not proof.

Now learn to argue like a rational individual in a communal setting or, as you oh so eloquently put it, shut up.

wrong. Rogue trader can and is to bee seen as warhammer 40,000 first edition (hell it even said warhammer 40,000 on the cover). just because some thing doesn't get published anymore doesn't mean that it effectively doen't exist. if we take your logic down the path you suggest then no parliment would have the right to rule do their constitutions nopt beeing republished and brought up with the times.

it is people like you who diliberatly ignore large volumes of background material because it wasn't published recently... you know what hasn't been released lately... The Adeptus Arbites, Ordo Zenos, Blood Angels, Dark Eldar, Space Wolves, Custodes, The Adeptus Mechanicus... are you saying that these well known Imperial organisations/forces dont exist...

Ive only ever asked that those who say it isn't linked anymore provide actual documented proof to back up their argument because those of us who believe utherwise are sick of being the only ones to Actually use evidene in an Argument...
Some thing you see incapable of doing
so please next time dont rave that we cant make an argument actually stop and consider that maybe we have given an arguemt which as proff.

MvS
10-09-2008, 14:33
You know what? I can't think of a publication released through GW stores, Mail Order or BLP that states categorically that the imageries are separate. In this respect I relate to Lexxbomb's position.

That said, back in 2002/2003 I was told categorically that the imageries were separate by GW, even while I was told by my editor's immediate boss to include the fantasy/40K cross-over stuff, so 40K fans wouldn't feel 'left out'.

For my part I think that the separation is a fact, but perhaps there isn't anyone within GW whose job description is to enforce the separation provided that cross-overs aren't made by other companies who have licensed the imagery for whatever reason. If it's 'in house' GW doesn't seem to care a great deal, so long as any direct ties between the imageries are played as jokes and aren't too extensive.

I'm not talking about the daemon rulebooks, because although they have the same characters they don't actually say stuff like "Skulltaker likes to travel between the Cadia and Altdorf".

EDIT

It's also worth bearing in mind that in terms of approach to their imagery, GW has been known to chop and change quite considerably over the years. So last year's 'certainty' might be this year's 'lie' and next year's 'rediscovered truth'. I mean hey, Salamanders were always coal-black with deep red eyes, it's just "no-one thought to mention it"... not even in the pictures of them...

;)

LexxBomb
10-09-2008, 14:58
Thanks MvS its good to have support from some opne who actualy deals with the publications on a professional level.

I understand tha the link may have been severed for legality reasons to stop outsourcesd work by other companies crossing over. Im fine with all that... O just wish people could look behid all the legal mumbo jumble amd see the links that have always been there for the decicated reader. (those put there for just those sort of people... such as the wargear that came out of the Albion Wolrd campain - which was 40k wargear renamed in a fantasy way)

Hell GW biggest change in terms of the look of a race has to be the tyranids and we can blame tha lawsuit with Blizzard (StarCraft) for tjat (hence no more Zoats)...

while on the subject of fluff being forgotten by the painters Why on Earth is Cypher dexribed as wearing Green Arnour and painted in said colour... Fallen Angels from the time of the Hweresy have Black Armour.

MvS I wish you and all the GW staff good luck with your next projects and keep the background fluff comming.

Brother Siccarius
10-09-2008, 15:06
wrong. Rogue trader can and is to bee seen as warhammer 40,000 first edition (hell it even said warhammer 40,000 on the cover). just because some thing doesn't get published anymore doesn't mean that it effectively doen't exist. if we take your logic down the path you suggest then no parliment would have the right to rule do their constitutions nopt beeing republished and brought up with the times.

it is people like you who diliberatly ignore large volumes of background material because it wasn't published recently... you know what hasn't been released lately... The Adeptus Arbites, Ordo Zenos, Blood Angels, Dark Eldar, Space Wolves, Custodes, The Adeptus Mechanicus... are you saying that these well known Imperial organisations/forces dont exist...

Ive only ever asked that those who say it isn't linked anymore provide actual documented proof to back up their argument because those of us who believe utherwise are sick of being the only ones to Actually use evidene in an Argument...
Some thing you see incapable of doing
so please next time dont rave that we cant make an argument actually stop and consider that maybe we have given an arguemt which as proff.

Your example is poorly done, because while it doesn't work that way in politics, it does work that way in fluff for 40k. I'm not even sure how you go about comparing the two.

Old fluff isn't well looked upon because parts from the same era or even the same books as the older fluff is re-written or retconned often enough to make it too unstable to rely on it. Rogue Trader is a good example of this, as parts of it were re-written, retconned, deleted, ect. and even though some parts of it still pop up every now and then, it can't be entirely relied upon for entirely accurate fluff. Somewhat less so as the fluff changed from RT to 2nd edition, then changed dramatically from 2nd to third in a lot of places, then on a smaller scale from 3rd to 4th. So you're talking about two entire editions and incarnations of the fluff that you're looking through to try and make the point.

I love the old fluff, and I often look for way to incorporate the fluff into the current incarnation of the 40k universe, but sometimes it doesn't work out because GW's either changed stances on certain things, gone for a new outlook, or deleted or removed parts.

Oh, and in-house jokes are only proof of the real link that 40k and fantasy are made by the same gaming company, not that they're the same universe. I know it's difficult for some people to believe, but two entirely separate game universes can have parallels without being a crossover (It's why it's called "parallels" and not "intersections")

LexxBomb
10-09-2008, 15:17
The change from 2nd to 3rd wasn't really that much at all when it cames to fluff really its just that stuff was omitted (well thats my interpretation)/ excpet fro maybe the inclusion of the Dark Eldar and a new look Tyrandis. Orks having changed in GorkaMorka (which was during 2nd Edition) and the absence of the Squats as a playable race. But Squats wew acknowledged as a race with the release of the Inquisition war series (which was during 4th Ed - and then again in 5th Ed Omnibus edition).

Im sure with a bit of work any of the old fluff can e explained to a new commer and they wouyld be able to accept it.

MvS
10-09-2008, 15:19
Thanks MvS its good to have support from some opne who actualy deals with the publications on a professional level...{snip}...I wish you and all the GW staff good luck with your next projects and keep the background fluff comming.
That's kind of you, but just to be clear, I haven't worked with BLP since 2005 and haven't been contacted by them since late 2006/early 2007 (I forget actually).

We don't work together any more and I was only ever employed as a freelancer on a work-for-hire basis.

Anyway, re. Salamanders, it wasn't just the painters who got it 'wrong', it was the artists who released pictures of Salamanders looking African, not coal-skinned mutants with red eyes.

Something similar can be said for Cypher. I remember reading a few extracts that commented on his dark gteen armour. So perhaps some of the writers didn't know or had forgotten some of the imagery there too.

Consistency isn't always a forte I think, hence Fantasy and 40K can be united once, then separated, then blurred, then left open to debate. This may change again one day and we might get a definite comment in a publication to the effect that the two imageries are entirely divorced or happily re-married. Who knows?

Brother Siccarius
10-09-2008, 15:29
The change from 2nd to 3rd wasn't really that much at all when it cames to fluff really its just that stuff was omitted (well thats my interpretation)/ excpet fro maybe the inclusion of the Dark Eldar and a new look Tyrandis. Orks having changed in GorkaMorka (which was during 2nd Edition) and the absence of the Squats as a playable race. But Squats wew acknowledged as a race with the release of the Inquisition war series (which was during 4th Ed - and then again in 5th Ed Omnibus edition).

Im sure with a bit of work any of the old fluff can e explained to a new commer and they wouyld be able to accept it.

Oh sure, you could re-explain the fluff fairly easily in a lot of cases, but re-explaining it has no more merit in being called cannon than an evidence-less argument has being called proof. Unless the retelling of the fluff it's written by GW, it only has a tentative grasp on being cannon.

I really don't bother being upset about it, as cannon is over-rated, confusing, and changes faces more often than a demon in the warp. Instead it's, personally, better to take the position I offered earlier, use your own stances on the fluff to make it your own (Just realize that it is your own, and not necessarily everyone else's).

Art Is Resistance
10-09-2008, 16:06
Hell GW biggest change in terms of the look of a race has to be the tyranids and we can blame tha lawsuit with Blizzard (StarCraft) for tjat (hence no more Zoats)....

Sorry, bear with me here - why did the lawsuit with Blizzard put pay to the Zoats? The Zoats were designed way back in 1988/89, and the Tyranid change was just a redesign the same that the Marines move from MK6 to MK7, or the IG move away from long barrel las guns to the carbines. I don't think a lawsuit had anything to do with that! Especially as the Zoats came first - and were dropped along the way...


the absence of the Squats as a playable race. But Squats wew acknowledged as a race with the release of the Inquisition war series (which was during 4th Ed - and then again in 5th Ed Omnibus edition). - Sorry, but if you're going to quote sources then at least get it right - the Inquisition War books first saw print DURING the RT years - 1990 onwards (If I dig out my original copy with the Fangorn cover I'll give you an exact printing date) - so that blows your proposition out of the water. In fact, the reprints (with the Clint Langley covers) have been retconned to fit the newer background, with prefraces pointing out the 'mutants' within Jaq Draco's warband - in fact, the word 'Squat' as meaning a race is whited out from the books.... Dan Abnett put a nod and a wink to this in his Ravenor books with the Shipmaster character (whose name fails me) being of 'short stature.....'


For my two pennies, I subscribe to MVS' idea of the Moorcock Multiverse explanation - the two realities have gateways into the same 'warp'. Or even, taken further, it could be the same as when Spelljammer in D&D connected the various settings as 'spheres' - each a self contained universe connected through the empyrean (hang on... it's the same thing!)

Fictional settings get retconned all the time - take a look at the 80's superman, which was then retconned by John Byrne in the Man Of Steel series, or more recently, the reboot of Spider Man in Brand New Day - it's a good way of whitewashing out any pieces of 'accepted' backstory that no longer fits. Or you could take the Terry Pratchett view of backstory which is that history is written from different viewpoints - which may well conflict!

jirgaS
10-09-2008, 18:29
And where does the Void Whale fit in all this?

Mer
11-09-2008, 00:40
would it matter if they were connected?

....no it wouldnt

end of story

Clockwork-Knight
11-09-2008, 01:09
It would. You'd have to explain why the Elven Gods with the very same names and functions like the Eldar Gods still work, why there are tons of other gods in the Warhammer Fantasy World, why the Orks aren't the dominant species there, where the WhFB-World lies, why all human civilisations there don't have any signs or relics from ancient space-faring colonies, and furthermore, why the Old Ones visited this planet only 7000 years ago, when they were actually extinct for some million years.

Face it, connecting the two franchises brings tons of logical holes in it, and the only possibility is to say 'because the warp did it'. It didn't work back then, it still won't function when you'll try to connect it with force. Let it be like GW wants it. Two separate franchises with some similarities, but in the end completely different things that just share some things, the same as every Final Fantasy has some Moogles, a guy named Cid, some starter-npcs called Vicks and Wedge, and Chocobos. Apart from Final Fantasy X-2, no Final Fantasy title was ever connected to each another.

Iracundus
11-09-2008, 07:33
It would. You'd have to explain why the Elven Gods with the very same names and functions like the Eldar Gods still work,

The same way Sigmar as a god works: people believe there is a god of that name and identity out there and eventually one forms in the warp. The Eldar of the rest of the galaxy no longer seem to be religious or dedicated to the active worship of their gods any more (as opposed to just remembrance), whereas the Elves/Eldar of WHFB still do. Hence minor gods might be generated for the WHFB world and pay focused attention to that world, in the same way that in the RoC Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle were birthed as human gods and paid attention to humanity on Earth before it spread across th stars.



why there are tons of other gods in the Warhammer Fantasy World

See above. The warp also seethes with minor gods and entities. The existence of multiple other gods is not surprising in the least. The lack of any other gods would be.



why the Orks aren't the dominant species there

In the same way that you can have worlds in the Imperium where Ork infestatin is endemic but where the Orks haven't overwhelmed the rest of the population either.



where the WhFB-World lies

As previously described and alluded to: a feral world cut off from the rest of the galaxy by impenetrable warp storms. Sound far fetched? The Tau world was in a similar position for an extensive time period.



why all human civilisations there don't have any signs or relics from ancient space-faring colonies

A few wargear items actually are given as hints/nudges to 40K items. Also the lack of such links is hardly surprising given there are other worlds in the 40K universe where humans have degenerated from space flight technology to STONE AGE level.



and furthermore, why the Old Ones visited this planet only 7000 years ago, when they were actually extinct for some million years.


They weren't extinct. The Necron Codex quite clearly mentions the Old Ones/Slann as still being in existence as a biological species, though degenerate and now primitive. The Black Library book Xenology also hints/suggests at least one undegenerate Old One was alive and still fiddling around with species within the last few millenia. If at least one Old One was still around, it is not inconceivable there might have been more as the Necron Codex only states the Old One civilization collapsed. That does not rule out the existence of other enclaves or individuals still trying to do their old genetic manipulation even though their galaxy wide civilization may have fallen apart.

Jedi152
11-09-2008, 07:42
Do you know why all the races are the same? Because all the races in 40k were copied from fantasy at the time to cash in on the growing sci-fi market.

They're not linked, and GW has said so many times. Stop trying to make out that 40k is the defining universe, fanboys.

tsutek
11-09-2008, 09:30
pardon me for stating this, but if I recall correctly, there is no official canon for the fluff of GW?

If this is the case then why struggle to make all the pieces fit in a way that devalidates no existing fluff in either FB or 40k?

The way I see it this is like tha famoushzzz plato's example of people chained to the wall, who only see the shadows..

(Just for the sake of indulgement however, yes, The worlds can IMO coexist. Nobody ever said how the timeline's correlate to each other, so I say that WHFB 'stuff' occurred 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000 years before/after the 40k 'timeline'.. But this is impossible to prove of course)

rhino79
11-09-2008, 09:35
Well, many names of the WH40k setting and WHFB are similar...but i guess trying to demonstrate that they are the same universe is like trying to explain the coninuity of a certain comic universe of a well known company (not the one of Batman, the other one...hehehe)but then agian...give us a new race for WH40K plz, I want to play Slaani...

Kidjal
11-09-2008, 09:41
has anyone read the Libre Chaotica?

Although I would actually hate a linked universe, it would somehow detract from my love of fantasy if it was touched by the doomladen 40k universe, there is a definate link or two in that book.

I try to imagine the references as "to another dimension/world" as has already been mentioned in this post, I find this an interesting topic rather than an argument waiting to happen.

the imperial scribe (WHFB Empire, that is) is studying the libres tzeentch, khorne, nurgle and slannesh which drove his predecessor mad. Its such a complex book, written in such depth I don't think I've managed to read more than 20% of it properly in two years. Pages of coded writing, writing from the scribe in the pages margins etc. But in particular, the scribe begins to receive visions "of the future, or something else, I did not know" of the great crusades of the Abandoned One, the tragic fall of the Elder, the forgotten son's pain and violence against his golden father. He also sketches chaos space marines, noise marines, war engines of chaos, and oddly, lucius the eternal.

Have a look. Im by no means arguing they are the same universe, but a tenuous link between worlds is just good for the imagination.

Adra
11-09-2008, 10:52
It seems it does not matter how often staff say they are not linked some people just dont take the hint.

Kidjal
11-09-2008, 11:00
From a blacklibrary background book, a casual observation of potential nods to the other game systems. Linked? No. Taking a hint? the hobby is whatever you want it to be.

Jedi152
11-09-2008, 11:05
Well the author of Liber Chaotica is a poster on here and said he didn't want to put the link in but was made to do so as an 'in joke' and to make the book appeal to 40k fans.

They are linked via the warp, hence the daemon characters being the same, but they aren't the same universe.

Kidjal
11-09-2008, 11:07
thats what I said, in less words.

I like it that way, but that only. A direct link would spoil things.

Jedi152
11-09-2008, 11:11
I like that way. Thus a mad possessed wizard might be granted freakish visions of 8 foot supermen in brightly coloured armour by daemons, but marines aren't going to land in the empire any time soon.

G.I.JimmyJazz
11-09-2008, 18:48
the people of GW were able to be slightly creative and original when they made WHFB, (excluding the fact that making a game with orcs and elves, etc. is not really original at all), but they were unable to ever be creative or origional again, hence why every GW game is almost identical to every other GW game, or taken from a movie.

Lothlanathorian
11-09-2008, 19:21
Why make two completely different universes when you can make one AWESOME one and then translate it into another AWESOME one using the same legos you started with?

That's all. Haven't you ever come up with a cool character you liked to use or write about or play as then used him in several different settings?

Brother Siccarius
11-09-2008, 22:51
pardon me for stating this, but if I recall correctly, there is no official canon for the fluff of GW?


This is not quite true, actually it's a stretch on what BL and GW have stated.
When asked about the cannonicity of the BL novels they both stated that all published materials by BL is as cannon as the codexies and rulebooks. That is, just as full of one-sided information and conjecture as anything else.

A good example of this would have to be Anzion's Theory on Orkoid Gestalt Consciousness (or whatever the exact title of it was), that is that it's just as much a one sided view of how orks survive and their technology works as it is a valid theory. It's steeped in Imperial Tech-mysticism and conjecture as anything BL novel, yet is just as valid as any other theory at the same time.


the people of GW were able to be slightly creative and original when they made WHFB, (excluding the fact that making a game with orcs and elves, etc. is not really original at all), but they were unable to ever be creative or origional again, hence why every GW game is almost identical to every other GW game, or taken from a movie.

Actually, just because there are similarities in style and look in the other games, that doesn't mean there isn't any creativity in there (Otherwise you could argue that after Jules Verne, Shakespeare, Heinlein, Howard, and Tolkien that there wasn't any more creativity in Fantasy and Sci-Fi). It's also worth pointing out that when GW does get creative, people like to complain about it (Ie. C'tan, Ogre Kingdoms, Orkoid evolution, ect.).

stainawarjar
16-09-2008, 08:08
but i guess trying to demonstrate that they are the same universe is like trying to explain the coninuity of a certain comic universe of a well known company (not the one of Batman, the other one...hehehe)

Now, why'd you have to go and bring Image Comics into this? :rolleyes:

heretic
16-09-2008, 13:54
They are but don't tell the FB players, they get a wittle mad.

And since I love throwing fuel into a dying fire, there was a WHFB campaign several years back with treasures in the form of 40k equipment.

MrBigMr
16-09-2008, 15:06
On the subject of canon and all that:

The Background exists as a context for the games that people play. Despite the occasional event, the background was never intended as an ongoing narrative that would be constantly updated. The back story presents questions, enigmas, problems, and conflicts. Gamers explore and solve these issues by playing games and developing armies. In short, the background provides the beginning, but the players provide the end.

What is Cypher up to? Well, he's up to whatever you need him to be up to for your games and campaigns. What does the cult mechanicus have to do with the dragon? Whatever you want that relationship to be.

The background should be like Schrodinger's Cat - Nothing is defined until the players look into the box by playing games and determining the outcome for themselves. Backgrounds should be full of possibilities to be exploited and expanded by players, not answers that limit the potential of the game and its setting.
Ok, leaning more towards 40K, but still... There's other quotes as well that incorporate WHFB, all with a similar tone. Just picked this for it's rather recent.


They are but don't tell the FB players, they get a wittle mad.
I think it's sand in many 40K players' groins as well.


And since I love throwing fuel into a dying fire, there was a WHFB campaign several years back with treasures in the form of 40k equipment.
I think that was already mentioned in the course of this thread.

On the subject, earlier this year we held a WHFB tournament around here and one of our tables was made as a sort of ash wastes of Chaos that had a crashed aquila lander and in an objective capture mission on the table the objective was a pile of rocks with a damaged Space Marine's hand reaching out and holding a bolt pistol.


It seems it does not matter how often staff say they are not linked some people just dont take the hint.
Since when has anyone believed what GW "officially" states? If we were to believe them, we should still be waiting for 40K's 5th edition rulebook (wasn't it officially said that it was still years into to the future few months before the releas?), and stull like that. Of course GW will deny any such claim.

All in all, GW says a lot of things.

I wouldn't think that in any official source GW would mix the two universes, but there's a ton of little eastern eggs all over the place, placed by developers and other people, so no matter how serious the official company stance was, it does not remove the fact that people working with the games on any level tend to play with the idea.

So in a tongue in cheek level it's perfectly feasible. And anyone not being able to take the game with a pinch of humor needs to look in the mirror a little.