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bravey
08-09-2008, 20:33
Hello,

I would like some help with this orc and goblin army list. Its my first army, so I think it probably needs some work! Tips and c&c wanted.
Brigitz Bone 'chewa (orc warboss): 1 model, 250 points
Warboss ironclaws waaagh! cleava
Light armor
Boar
Sheild

Gritzot 'ead banga( black orc big boss) 1 model , 166 points
Battle standard bearer
Heavy armor
Morks spirit totem
Sheild

Git'za the sneaky(Night gobbo bigboss): 1 model, 86 points
Great axe
Light armour
Warboss Umms best boss 'at
Madcap Mushrooms


Naga the whelp(Night gobbo shaman): 1 model, 135 points
Level 2 wizard
2x dispel scrolls


Core units:
Spider riders: 10 models, 170 points
Short bows
Musician
Standard bearer
Boss

Night gobbo spear: 29 models, 188 pts
1x Fanatic
Musician
Boss
Spears
Sheilds
Netters

Night gobbo spear: 28 models, 180 pts
1x Fanatic
Musician
Boss
Spears
Sheilds
Netters
~~~~~Git'za the sneaky goes 'ere~~~~~

Night gobbo archer: 19 models, 132 points
1x Fanatic
Short bows
Boss
Musician

Orc boyz : 26 models, 187 points
Additional choppa
Musician

Orc boyz : 26 models, 265 points
Musician
Sheilds
Big 'uns
~~~~~Gritzot 'ead banga goes 'ere~~~~~



Special units:
Black orcs: 20 models, 311 points
Boss
Musician
Noggs banner of butchery

Spear chukka: 40 points
3 goblin crew
Orc bully

Spear chukka: 40 points
3 goblin crew
Orc bully

Rare:

Stone trolls: 2 models, 120 points

Total = 2390

Brother Bart
11-09-2008, 20:33
Sorry no-one's replied. That sucks...

You're going off what models you already have, and it looks like you used the Skull Pass stuff as a base. I'm not super experienced...I actually opened this thread in hopes of finding some advice myself...

But, I find that spider riders aren't all that great in large units. Since you don't have any fast moving stuff like wolf riders, chariots, or squig hoppers...I'd split that 10 man strong spider units into 2 - 5 man fast cav units. Not to get flank charges, (though if your lucky enough to not loose any and get the opportunity to flank or rear charge...all the better) but to mess with your opponent's strategy. Use 'em on the flanks to taunt his flanking units, deny marching, or if your lucky, hunt down some warmachines or lone spellcasters.

My advice is to get some wolf riders real soon...

Also, Squig hoppers are downright mean. I've had them tear through an entire battleline from one flank to the other...though with no armor save, they are really only good on the charge and I got pretty lucky.

I know you are using NG spearmen because thats what came with skull pass, but if you can get your opponent to let you proxy...use them as handweapons and shields to get the extra point of armor save in CC. Plus, they are cheaper, since you don't have to buy the spears...and lets face it...the only advantage the goblins have going for them is their low points cost-hence more goblins.

Also, as much as I like the Stone Troll models....I'm not sure the upgrade is worth a whole half of another troll. You still get your 4+ regen save, and vomit attack...I was really disappointed when I first saw those points costs...

Good to see you have that Black Orc boss in the regular boys unit to keep them from suffering animosity, I'd almost suggest taking another Black Orc boss for the other unit of boys, just to be sure...and pack a little extra punch.

With the spirit totem and the scroll caddy you should be "ok" against most armies magic, but you'll be hurting against VCs and DEs.

Also, try posting your list over at TheWaaagh! and DakkaDakka since no-one here bothered answering your post.


Hope this helps...

Dave

Green Feevah!
11-09-2008, 23:38
I'll throw in my two cents, since we Orc players have to stick together.

Warboss: I usually keep mine bare-bones and use him to support a big mob of boyz. He usually doesn't survive challenges. Just a great axe and the tricksy trinket is enough. Light armor is usually a waste of a few points, unless you have it to spare. Anything that's hitting him will likely either reduce or ignore whatever save you have. That said the trinket has saved me a few times against tooled-up chaos lords. The WAAAGH axe is a huge points sink, I wouldn't take it. You can get a whole mob of goblins for the price of one sword, and numbers are what counts for Orcs. Boyz before Toys!

Standard Bearer: This is a solid choice, especially if you face heavy-magic armies.

Night Goblin Big Boss: Same thing I said about the warboss... anything that attacks him will ignore a paltry 6+ save. It's only a few points, but they do add up. If this is the BfSP model, you'd be better off converting him into another shaman.

Night Goblin Shaman: Goos little scroll caddy. Can't go wrong here. If you take my advice from above, give the other shaman the Staff of Sneaky Stealing to further limit your opponent's magic phase, but at that point you're a little over the top on magic control.

Spider Riders: Split into 2 units of 5, and convert the standard bearer into another musician (again assuming this is the BfSP). 5 man is all you'll ever need, they are there to march block and tie up war machines. Expect them to die, and not to take a lot with them, but that's why they're cheap.

Night goblin units: I personally only ever field them with a musician, and never with spears or bows. If this is the BfSP set, I'd recommend cutting off the spear tips, clipping and filing away the spear hafts, and then gluing the spear tips onto the top of the hands to make dagger/short swords. It's a little bit of work, but the points you save and the survivability you give them is worth it. Nets are good, but not essential. Lastly I really like that you've gone sparingly on fanatics. They are not a 'more is better' upgrade, and most gobbo players I know hardly field them. Oh, and think about converting the archers to HW/Shield too. A little bit of shaving on the bows makes passable HW, then see if you can find the OLD 5th ed shields online somewhere or from trades. They are about the right size.

Orc Units: Your bread and butter and arguably the best point-for-point troops in the game (IMO). Do not, I repeat DO NOT, upgrade them to Big'uns. The price of a big'un is almost the price of a boy. You would rather have more on the field. Especially since their save doesn't get any better and since you will have a character in there (which of course you will), their leadership doesn't improve. HW/Shield is preferred to double choppa, but if you don't have the models, then play them as is until you can replace them. Let me repeat: Orcs win games. Not upgrades, not fancy units, foot-slogging boyz. Blocks of 25 are fearsome and CHEAP! I never run less than 3 in any army (5 when I can).

Black Orcs: There is nothing a Black Orc can do that a boy can't do cheaper (except give up victory points). IMO they are a HUGE points sink, with very little battlefield return. ESPECIALLY if you put a character in there. Anyone who knows the game will target that unit first to put themselves ahead in victory points early. Also the banner is overkill on an already expensive unit.

Spear Chukkas: These are the best of the goblin war machines, hands down. Take more if you can spare the points.

Trolls: Again I'm assuming BfSP here, but Trolls are a liability in most armies. Their Leadership sucks, which means they need to be baby-sat or they are going to 'DAR!' when you least want them to. For the points, I'd say you're better off with either more boyz, or, one of my favorite units, chariots (either variety).

Tips:

Boys are better than anything else in the list
Chariots are great for support, I love 'em!
Night Goblins need to be kept as cheap as possible, never spend on them what you could spend on more boyz
Regrettably, most of the 'fancy' units in our book are horribly over-priced... leave them on the shelf or make sure if you are going to use them, SUPPORT them. We have NO game-winning units (other than a crap-ton of boyz)
Keep spiders cheap (also consider wolf riders... they are faster, but they don't ignore cover or have poison, you can go either way with these 2 units.
Keep the wargear to a minimum. Our wargear mostly sucks or is too expensive.


If you are using ever6ything that you have, then it's a good start that just needs to fat trimmed a little. If you are taking certain units over other for the 'shock and awe' factor, then remember that an orc boy is better than anything in the list point-for-point. That said if you absolutely love certain models (black orcs for example), by all means include them, but trim the fat. I try to make sure that no unit in the list is more than 175 points (including characters) and that if I take something, I take at least 2 of it for when animosity hits. Redundancy is key.

Again, just my 2 cents.

The Farmer
12-09-2008, 09:54
BSB's, in books earlier than High Elves, are not allowed to be equipped with a shield. This "intended" change in the HE book has lead to all successive armies being able to put shields on BSB and we orcs and empire simply cannot.

bravey
22-09-2008, 17:15
Ok, I changed my list according to the feedback I got(thanks!). Does it need anything else done to it, or is it good?( my opponent plays Beasts of chaos and will be playing warriors of chaos when the new book come out).


Brigitz Bone 'chewa (orc warboss): 1 model, 250 points
Warboss ironclaws waaagh! cleava
Light armor
Boar
Sheild

Gritzot 'ead banga( black orc big boss) 1 model , 166 points
Battle standard bearer
Heavy armor
Morks spirit totem
Sheild

Git'za the sneaky(Night gobbo bigboss): 1 model, 86 points
Great axe
Light armour
Warboss Umms best boss 'at
Madcap Mushrooms


Naga the whelp(Night gobbo shaman): 1 model, 135 points
Level 2 wizard
2x dispel scrolls


Core units:

Spider riders: 5 models, 77 points
Boss

Spider riders: 5 models, 71 points
Musician


Night gobbo: 29 models, 188 pts
1x Fanatic
Musician
Boss
Sheilds
Netters

Night gobbo : 28 models, 184 pts
1x Fanatic
Musician
Boss
Sheilds
Netters
~~~~~Git'za the sneaky goes 'ere~~~~~

Night gobbo archer: 19 models, 94 points
1x Fanatic
Short bows
Boss
Musician

Orc boyz : 25 models, 180 points
Additional choppa
Musician

Orc boyz : 25 models, 155 points
Musician
Sheilds
~~~~~Gritzot 'ead banga goes 'ere~~~~~

Orc boyz : 25 models, 155 points
Musician
Sheilds


Special units:

Night goblin squig hoppers: 5 models, 75 points

Night goblin squig hoppers: 5 models, 75 points

Spear chukka: 40 points
3 goblin crew
Orc bully

Spear chukka: 40 points
3 goblin crew
Orc bully


Total = 1971

WhiteKnight
23-09-2008, 04:30
alright with 29 points left, invest in either more boyz with a champion in the units. For the night goblins, take them as bare as possible.

1.They're only good for deploying fanatics and sucking up magic and bullets.
2.With them being weak and all, don't give them command except maybe a musician. You don't want the opponent to get a bunch of banners from beating them in combat.

Magx
24-09-2008, 03:19
I disagree with green feeva' for his opinion about not upgrading to Big 'Uns. Well, I partially disaggree. You see, for having Mork's Spirit Totem, wich is a must, you have 2 choices : a Standard Bearer or Upgrading an Orc Boyz unit to Big Un's.

The points for Big 'Uns (I'm only couting the cost of being Big 'Uns (4 pts))
if you are running 30 Orcs (wich is A LOT) is 120 pts.

Not only the standard bearer is more expensive (Black Orc Big Boss = about 160 pts, Orc Big Boss = about 140 pts, only the Orc savage Big Boss, normal Goblin and Night Goblin Big Boss are less than 120 pts... if they are not mounted for the goblins) but it steals you a spot for another lvl 2 chaman (I play three)) wich, I think is also a must.

that's my opinion

Green Feevah!
24-09-2008, 08:19
I agree with WhiteKnight, keep your goblin units as cheap as possible. Also, having bosses in goblin units is giving away combat res. Warriors of Chaos MUST challenge for the most part, and they will destroy a goblin boss, giving them the overkill bonuses they need to win combat. No champ, no challenge, no free points for them. For your Night Goblins and for your Spider Riders, musician and that's it!

That said, I think your Orc units need champions. They'll have a 4+ save in combat, which while not great, is coupled with their toughness 4. On top of that, an orc boss gets more than just the +1 attack that most unit champs get, he gets extra weapon skill and strength too. Invaluable. Orc units are also where you'd put standards. The combat res is worth it.

Finally, I also agree with Magx (though he disagreed with me). I don't run a BSB as I think they are too expensive for what they do. You put he spirit totem on top of that and you might as well paint a bullseye on that banner. "What do you mean I'll get VP for the standard AND destroy his magic defense? Score!"

If you opt to go with big'uns without the BSB, you're also in a rough spot. Leadership is still an issue. Which means you need a hero either in the unit, which makes it really expensive, a BSB nearby (which doesn't really solve anything, since at that point you might as well give him the banner and put him in the unit) or oyu hide them behind things and fight at a deficit. None of those, to me are appealing options. Personally, I just take my lumps in the magic phase, burn my dispel dice and scrolls when I need to and try to get my butt into combat like a proppa orc!

If you're truly worried about magic, (though my regular opponent fields either chaos daemons or warriors, and it's never been overwhelming) then you need to stock up on shamans, who are point for point a better investment than a BSB. Don't get me wrong, a BSB is a solid choice for ANY army, and more so for a low leadership army like orcs, but the spirit totem has become a default for Orc players. If I see a BSB, I assume it is the spirit totem, and make it a priority target. And usually when that happens, it doesn't matter if they are big'uns or not. Cannons are still cannons, bolt throwers are still bolt throwers, and panic is still panic. I guarantee that the enemy is firing every war machine at that unit to get the victory points for over-expensive big'uns and the over-expensive banner. And warriors of chaos get the biggest one of them all: the hell cannon.

Valaraukar
24-09-2008, 11:15
Remember the hellcannon now is just a slightly stronger stone thrower so not too accurate and you get look out sir aargh for your BSB, besides that beasts and warriors have sod all shooting except throwing weapons. You will probably lose a fair share of combats against chaos unless you manage to get all your dual charges etc. off so I think a BSB would eb well worth it, plus it's an extra +1 CR too which may be handy.

Whitehorn
24-09-2008, 11:30
It's worth giving your spider riders short bows. I tend to take units of 6 or 7 - to negate a couple of casualties and maintain a wider flank if they need to get into combat.

The Goblin units can't be 19 strong. I'd take 21 for the shooty goblins and drop the boss. Keep them in block formation. 21 means they have to take 6 casulaties (rather than 5) to suffer panic at first.

I'd also make the hoppers a bit bigger. They'll die to 1 round of firing.

Fredmans
24-09-2008, 15:21
Hello, fellow warboss. In order to get command groups on your orc boyz regiments, I would try to save some points. Orcs need full command to function. They will not kill that much, but are tough to kill. They need ranks, outnumber and standard. Plus, the orc champion is a good investment, due to higher WS and S.

Suggestions for saved points:

There is no need to protect a night goblin bigboss. After he has used his mushrooms, he is expendable. Get rid of the boss 'at.

By the way, since you invest in the madcap mushrooms, you should have at least 2 fanatics in THAT unit.

Netters are good, but a unit can only be netted once. Get rid of one netters upgrade and try to situate your units in the set-up phase to take maximal advantage of them. Given the number of units you field, you should be able to do this.

Waagh cleava! While it looks good on paper, with a potential 7 S8 attacks, it is quite hard to use. It is calculated at the time of the attack, meaning that flank charges, casualties etc whittle down your attacks and strength. I think both Ulag's Axe (with Boots or Gnashas) or Shaga's are equally good, cheaper and more reliable on a warboss.

This would give you a lot of points (110 + the 29 you already have) for orc command groups, more squig hoppers and a chariot or the troll that came with Skull Pass. I disagree with other posters claiming trolls not being useful, and especially since you do not field any Rare troops. I find it extremely convenient to have the possibility of fielding units of 1 Troll. They do not cause panic in your troops, are themselves not panicked by other troops and can be used to support a charge, protect flanks, redirection etc.

/Fredmans

soultaker87
24-09-2008, 18:38
I agree with Fredman, don't take the Waaagh cleaver, its too much points that doesn't work enough for the points. take Ulags Axe and boots, my opponents never see a st5 reroll 5a coming. also if you want to take a battle standerd take a orc big boss, not as tough but he's cheaper. also take spirit totem only if you know he's got a magic heavy army like VC, HE, LM... I once brought it to a tourny only to play against dwarfs and magic defence armys, it was useless. also orc & goblin BSB don't take shields. like Fredman said you don't need two goblin units with nets, take one. with spiders I only give them a musician and short bows for harassment. nice with the squig hoppers, and spear chukka's but a troll would be nice, just keep it near ur general and don't upgrade, its a waste in points. GET FANATICS !!! they rock when they work. I have not play against beastmen (and surprise there are any left) but if uses ambush units, fanatics might not be work well if he plans his ambush right.hope that I have been some help.