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foreverdancing
10-09-2008, 11:52
Here we go!

Lord
vamp
lv3
FL
Sum Ghouls
MotBA
Crown of the Damned
Flayedhauberk
Book of arkhan
Biting Blade

Heroes
CC Necro (balefire)
Vanhels
P stone, D scroll

Vamp
Ghoulkin
Supernatural Horror
lynci
sword of striking
Armour of night

Vamp
lv 2
summon Ghouls
periapt
Sword of might(or battle...)
ASF negating armour (the name eludes me!)

Core
14 ghouls/ghast x3

5 Dire wolves

Corpse cart/ balefire

Rare
5 Wraiths
banshee

Varghulf

Well, the general idea with the FL vamp is to take the necromantic lore, raising spirit host in the first turn or zombies to block line of site if possible with warmachines. With Ghoulkin/vanhels(in three places) this is a definate possibility, and for march blocking i tend to use the lynci vampire and the varghulf(on his way to more destructive objectives).

The basic idea with ghoulkin is to offer too many targets initially and hopefully to overcome. With units of ghouls i'm confident that it could weather 2 bolt throwers, which is usual for tournament lists... the dwarven firing line would be different, but that's where the tactic detailed above with raising/blocking comes in, particularly with SH.

The varghulf acts as a mop once the WM are blocked (if zombies/ SH cant cope) or as a flanking beast to add dynamic combat res to ghoul fights. He's also a handy terror bomb for low ld armies.

The wraiths have a simular function, and also are there to protect the lords unit should a star dragon HE Lord appear... nullstone? Screw you!razz, also they're to get behind units for either the rear charge or cross fire kills.

The Direwolves are included as they are handy for capturing tokens and buggering off. They are also used as rear runners for crossfire like the wraiths.

Any ideas for changes or tweaks? Cheers dudes!

Stinkfoot
10-09-2008, 12:01
A decent list. Two Corpse Carts though? That's awfully expensive for moderately augmented anti-magic. I think the list could use some heavy, flanking cavalry and I would drop a cart and a wraith to afford it (you don't need big units of wraiths if you're not smashing them into the enemy front anyhow).

I don't like CotD on the Lord, but the discussion of it's merits has taken place in numerous other threads so I'll just leave it at that.

Gokamok
10-09-2008, 15:35
Here we go!

Lord
vamp
lv3
FL
Sum Ghouls
MotBA
Crown of the Damned
Flayedhauberk
Book of arkhan
Biting Blade
Imo, you probably have a bit too much protection on this guy if you want to keep him out of combat, or too little hitpower if you want him in combat, but guess it's a matter of preference.

Heroes
CC Necro (balefire)
Vanhels
P stone, D scroll
I generally prefer not mounting Necros on carts, since it more or less takes away the option of throwing the cart into combat.

Vamp
Ghoulkin
Supernatural Horror
lynci
sword of striking
Armour of night
I think you should remove Supernatural Horror. Your army already has 2 other terror causers, so you'd probably be better of with something like Infinite Hatred (and then Sword of Battle instead of Striking)

Vamp
lv 2
summon Ghouls
periapt
Sword of might(or battle...)
ASF negating armour (the name eludes me!)
Are you planning to get this guy into combat? Otherwise going for Helm of Commandment instead of sword+armour could be an idea.
Core

14 ghouls/ghast x3

5 Dire wolves

Corpse cart/ balefire

Special:
As Stinkfoot points out, some Black Knights could be REALLY handy for supporting the front line.

Rare
5 Wraiths
banshee

Varghulf



All in all, this looks like a decent list to me. I would probably drop the carts all together, but that's just because I'm "special":D

foreverdancing
10-09-2008, 19:24
In response to Gokamok;

First off, thanks for the detailed advice:D

The over equipped lord, well, the general theme of the army is quite an aggressive one, and the amount of protection i've given him is to compensate for the inevitability that he will be in combat at some stage, a few lucky hits and things could crumble...The biting blade admittedly was as i had 5 points to spare:P

Necro on a corpse cart, im used to the CC being taken out immediately by enemy fire when it's outside of units, so admittedly again this is more airing on the side of caution. As to losing the necromancer, by the time i put him in combat, he's generally been of as much use to me as he can be, os im not too fussed on losing him.

The terror causing vamp, i can see where you're coming from, and i think the changes would be beneficial due to the sheer number of vampire counts and daemons in play at the moment.

The Guy with the nightshroud, i know that the helm is a fantastic item, but again as with the lord, i can see this army being in combat latest turn 2, and as the vampires have no choice but the be in units of ghouls, he will also see combat. Otherwise it would be the helm:)

To fit in a unit of black knights... (this is at both) I could drop the wolves(as they tend to be rather useless), a wraith, the sword of might and supernatural horror, which would open up 130 points ripe for 5 black knights.

Better? Of course the wraith unit loses it's ability to wipe out units in crossfire, but the raised spirit host/zombies should suffice.

This way i get to keep my -2 to cast and handy bounds:D.

The 200 points im fine with spending, as to get a high elf mage to possibly do -3 it'll cost you a hero slot and 135 points. The VC bonus is the bounds, extra wound, ectra toughness, armour, regen and of course no casting value/can't be dispelled.

With all the above in mind, why is it that you guys don't like CC so much?:P

Stinkfoot
11-09-2008, 01:08
With all the above in mind, why is it that you guys don't like CC so much?:P

I've got to say that I liked the concept and used them fairly often when the new book came out. It's only after several games with them that I fell out of love. Their bound spell is generally useless since it only matters in the enemy's turn (on your turn you'll be charging) and if they're really worried about it they can just dispel is during their own magic phase. The -1 to cast is a decent ability, and I tend to be fairly lite on the anti-magic. I just don't think it's worth the points you put into it. It rarely causes more than one extra spell to not get through all game, and one spell is unlikely to do 100 points of damage.

BTW, and I don't mean to be a dick, but one errs on the side of caution, not airs on it. I dunno, I shouldn't say anything but I just can't help myself...

foreverdancing
11-09-2008, 07:50
No i appreciate the correction. I'm a maths student who's somewhat out of touch with 'regular' language:).

The spells that hinder movement or a units ability or worse...drain magic are what my Corpse carts are there to combat. The latter being able to nullify a VC magic phase, which of course with my list i don't really want.

Gokamok
11-09-2008, 12:33
First off, regarding the Corpse Carts (CC):

Good things about CC:
-You get a nifty bound spell that your opponent will very often have to dispel, making raising and other stuff easier.
-They are decent for combat support, an average of 7 S2 attacks should probably add a wound to combat against T3 opponents, while T4 and regen means your opponent is unlikely to score extra wounds on the CC.
-They are quite good at protecting your flanks and rear from light cavalry charges.
-Balefire/Unholy Loadstone are potentially very good upgrades.

Bad stuff:
-The bound spell loses a lot of its strength against opponents with Staff of Sorcery (or any other +1 to dispel modifier), since your opponent will only use 1 DD and your chance of getting the spell through is quite low.
-Your army (and most VC armies) has 7 DD and a scroll. Against an opponent that is not playing magic heavy, Balefire will probably not make much of a difference, as you already have adequate dispelling power.
-They are quite vulnerable to shooting, magic missiles (Fireball anyone?) and artillery unless placed in units.
-They cost 100 points that could have been spent on hard hitting units instead.

I generally think that CC are too expensive unless you buy an upgrade, since the upgrade is usually the main reason for taking them. 2 Balefire carts will be absolutely awesome against other VC players (WTF? 6+ IoN) and Tzeentch "gunlines", but apart from that I think that paying 200 points for shutting down an opponents magic phase might be a bit too costly, especially since you're planning to get into combat fast.

Lodestone carts are quite good when you're running a tight battleline (I guess your 3 Ghoul blocks will be next to each other?) so a single Lodestone could probably be worth taking, as you're likely to more or less raise its points value back:D

Basically, it's a matter of preference, and I prefer to spend my points on mobile units (Bats, Wolves, Black Knights) instead of the more "static" infantry support from the CC.

For your army, I would recommend getting rid of the lone Balefire cart, and changing to a Lodestone on your necromancers mount to make raising easier.
The extra points could be spent on switching the Wolves for 5 Black Knights with Barding, which would provide a much stronger support unit.

I'll just quickly throw in a penny about CotD, and why I have adviced everyone not to take it:
You will fail the stupidity test 1 of 12 times on average, which isn't too bad statistically. However, if you fail that test at a critical moment, or if you're really unlucky and fail it twice in a row, then it can very well cost you the game. Playing the absolutely most reliable and non-random army in Warhammer, I prefer not to randomize the actions of my general;)

eleveninches
11-09-2008, 13:11
I have a list very much like this one, though I ended up dropping the lycni vamp in favour of konrad, simply because of the number of kills he can get, and how much cheaper he is, though the lycni vamp can be awesome if used properly
overall, a Good list, just a few pointers
Lord
vamp
lv3
FL
Sum Ghouls
MotBA
Crown of the Damned
Flayedhauberk
Book of arkhan
Biting BladeDrop forbidden lore and take dread knight instead. Then drop flayed hauberk and get the cursed book.


Heroes
CC Necro (balefire)
Vanhels
P stone, D scroll
I'd rather replace him with a vamp

Vamp
Ghoulkin
Supernatural Horror
lynci
sword of striking
Armour of night
Good kit. Give him the BSB upgrade and then sword of battle with infinite hatred (CR6!), so I would drop ghoulkin from him, and but it on the vamp that replaces the necro.

Vamp
lv 2
summon Ghouls
periapt
Sword of might(or battle...)
ASF negating armour (the name eludes me!)good again, but periapt and helm of commandment is the way to go IMO


Core
14 ghouls/ghast x3 Good, but they dont ALL need to be 14

5 Dire wolves

Corpse cart/ balefire


Rare
5 Wraiths
banshee

Varghulf
Wraiths look menacing, but can be a BIG pointsink. I would take a unit of grave guard with banner of the dead legion in place of them. And the varghulf is good for what it does, but I find it more useful to go with a unit of black knights with banner of hellish vigour for marching on their own, whilst ethereal in the movement phase.

I'll just quickly throw in a penny about CotD, and why I have adviced everyone not to take it:
You will fail the stupidity test 1 of 12 times on average, which isn't too bad statistically. However, if you fail that test at a critical moment, or if you're really unlucky and fail it twice in a row, then it can very well cost you the game. Not really. I was reading the rulebook the other day, and im sure it says that if a charachter fails his stupidity test, the entire unit just moves 4" forewards as if stupid, so he does NOT leave the unit.

Gokamok
11-09-2008, 13:38
@ Eleveninches:
Your interpretation of the rules regarding a character suffering from Stupidity in a unit is correct. My point is that you risk to have a unit unable to move as you want it at a critical point, and also that you cannot cast spells while suffering from Stupidity. Losing half your armys PD can very well mean losing 2 units that would otherwise have been replenished with IoN, which is likely to cost you the game.

eleveninches
12-09-2008, 14:19
It just means that you have to keep the rest of the army next to the general, and means that your army wont be going anywhere for a single turn, but its not the end of the world, as you are not going to lose all of your units in one turn, so its not as much of a problem if you use the rest of the army next to the general.