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Da Black Gobbo
10-09-2008, 11:57
Hi there! i was siting in front of my Daemons Army book and suddenly something really crazy came to my mind, making the uber super dupper magic list with tzeench heavy of course, let me see your thoughts about the prototype of the list:

--Kairos.- One of the best Mages out there a trully magic beast.

--Blue scribes.- If the enemy has magic he will give more PD to the pool.

--2x Tzeench Heralds: Power vortex.- 3 PD each!

--3x14 Pink Horrors: Icon of Sorcery.- just for some magic protection and numbers.

--2x3 Juggernauts: Some Heavy hitters to prevent the enemy from reaching to my lines 6 Str 6 attacks and 6 str 5 attacks with killing blow is something that even Blood Knights don't want to face.

--Total:13 PD+1 per succesfull cast on the enemy, 9 DD and 2 MR1 units.
What do you think?? i need some help to make this a real tourney list.

Cyrush
10-09-2008, 12:24
As far as how succesful it will be, i'm not sure, magic heavy usually results in win big or lose big. I just want to say that this army will not be fun to play against for your opponent, and will get boring very quickly for you. It's not going to make you many friends.

Da Black Gobbo
10-09-2008, 13:33
Well in a tourney i really don't want to make a lot of friends, this is not a Friendly list is a competitive one, I would like to see your thoughts about it.

Shmee
10-09-2008, 14:46
I remember reading it somewhere in the FAQ that daemonic icons works like normal magic item. So im not sure if you can have 3 Icons of Sorcery in your army.

The Inspector
10-09-2008, 15:43
I remember reading it somewhere in the FAQ that daemonic icons works like normal magic item. So im not sure if you can have 3 Icons of Sorcery in your army.
Correct.

As for the list, you better hope that whatever tournament you attend doesn't do comp scores. One of the most heavily lamented Daemonic lists [and that is saying something] is the Kairos Supernova list. It it pretty much what you listed, but without the Juggernauts in favour of Flamers [who can still kick it out in combat if they have to].

It is very effective. One of the reasons why heavy-magic often doesn't work is that you don't have a spell that can fix everything. However, with Kairos...you do.

Da Black Gobbo
10-09-2008, 15:52
Hmmm so if i cannot get 3 icons i'll get the rid all of them and having 81 points i can give wings to the heralds and get an extra horror for each unit. More thoughts??

jigplums
10-09-2008, 16:00
There are a few lists that would casue you problems. Highelves with lots of dragon princes springs to mind. I think it has potential though and you should do reasonably well i suppose. However very fast cc lists may give you a head ache if they can deal with the juggers. I actually prefer Flesh hounds over the juggers in general, as there so cost affective

Da Black Gobbo
10-09-2008, 16:24
Well i haven't think about flesh hounds but i'm not that convinced if they are better or worse than Bloodcrushers: 6 hounds cost the same as 3 juggers the same number of wounds, less attacks, less armour, better magic resistance and same M, removing the icons and the standard bearer i could replace the juggers for one unit of 6 with karanak and another one of 6. What do you think is better??

Lazarus15
11-09-2008, 00:14
honestly, I would pump up the horrors. I play a themed Tzeentch list without Kairos, just a normal LoC, but have 2 blocks of 30 horrors, and a block 0f 10 (to fill the force org). This gives a nice spot for your herald to sit, conferring his ward save to the horrors, as well as giving you the big bolt of change for both units. Kinda intimidating. The blue Scribes is cool, but I honestly like the chariot better with BSB, so you can A-re-roll failed leadership tests, and B-if you take a magic banner like the banner of hellfire, or the Great Icon of Despair, it is easy to get it into position. Give him a power vortex as well and that is quite a few. I give it to all of the above and have 6 pool dice. Pretty handy when playing against, say Empire, dwarves or bretonnia (none magic list), or something of that nature...other daemon players, but the scribes are def. better against vamp's, Tomb Kings, Ogres, things like that.

Nurgling Chieftain
11-09-2008, 00:35
The same FAQ which calls icons of chaos magic items also tells you to use the rules for gifts, which explicitly allow you to have multiples in the same army.

Kalec
11-09-2008, 00:36
The advantage to the Bluescribes is that they are inexpensive flying mages, the extra powerdice are secondary.

Lord Dan
11-09-2008, 01:00
I think it's effective, and I think I've seen it before.

Kaos
11-09-2008, 09:48
I think its effective as long as you have the dice with you.. as allways with magic. Anyhow, if i was ever to meet an army like this in a tourney i would not even bother picking up mine and go get a beer instead.

Reinnon
11-09-2008, 13:01
Strangely enough, someone on the daemonic legion forum came up with a similar army list 3 days after the book was formally released. He just used flamers instead of bloodcrushers.

From what i hear, its effective.

Da Black Gobbo
12-09-2008, 08:31
Thanks for the comments guys, nice to see it can do some performance in tourney...

Cheers!

kroq'gar
12-09-2008, 09:01
Would like to see how it'd fair against a regiment of HE with banner of the world dragon...

I faced a similar list with my lizards, and whilst powerful, a fast character can chase kairos around fairly easily. Something like a flying vampire would kill him in an instant.

The horrors are large goblins in combat, if anything reaches you, your in some serious issues (such as a miscaste causing your phase to end...)

This list revolves aroung pure luck (given magics miscaste and total powers turning up fairly regularly). If your lucky with casting, you've won. If not, you'll get chewed, swallowed & processed the other end.

him_15
12-09-2008, 11:18
Well, this list is really powerful, no doubt about that, howerver, nobody would show you respect when using such cheesy list. And wining with this list doesn't mean you are a strong player but the list itself. the best player is the one who uses weak army and still manage to win handy, and with this infamous list when you win, people won't gg with you, and if you lose, get ready to take lot of laugh.

bert n ernie
16-09-2008, 18:50
Well, this list is really powerful, no doubt about that, howerver, nobody would show you respect when using such cheesy list. And wining with this list doesn't mean you are a strong player but the list itself. the best player is the one who uses weak army and still manage to win handy, and with this infamous list when you win, people won't gg with you, and if you lose, get ready to take lot of laugh.

Yep, pretty much. This list may be for winning tourneys, but why bother? Is there a cash prize? If there isn't all you're doing is going out, meeting new people and preventing them from even attempting to like you.

OK, I admit you may not be the only one *ahem* sporting such a list, but if you do use it ensure that you are using it tactically. I don't think it guarnatees you a win, but it makes it much more of a certainty. I would personally resent it if I missed out on a top spot because of such a list.
It is a "great" list, and I might enjoy the challenge of trying to survive a few turns against it, but it is mostly just an exercise in rolling dice.

Da Black Gobbo
16-09-2008, 19:35
Okay guys, i see lots of you have lots of different opinions, first of all i will like to say that i'm not a competitive player...at all. I just think about the army, it came to my mind and that's all i don't like people think i'm a cheesy player, cause i'm not.

Thanks.

Gatsby
17-09-2008, 05:04
Well in a tourney i really don't want to make a lot of friends, this is not a Friendly list is a competitive one, I would like to see your thoughts about it.

I think this statement is EXACTLY why, even when not in a tournament setting, i refuse to play people with this mindset.

"oh, its a tournament? lemme get out my cheese farm list so no one can have fun playing except me."

make a fair list for a tournament not a cheesy one, then when you beat the cheesy players its based on your ability to lead an army, not on your ability to put together an unfair list, because ANYONE can do that, it takes skill to beat a cheesy player.

3Xhume
17-09-2008, 22:38
@Gatsby : Actually, it comes down to how you communicate in the competitive setting. I dont see any reason why you cant have fun just because one heavy tournament list. It all comes down to the opponent. Bad list + bad attitude = no fun. Bad list + good attitude = mediocre fun game.
Tournament is a WAAC environment. If you dont wanna see any competitive list, play friendly game. Stay out of tournament as they kill your fun games.

Lord Dan
17-09-2008, 22:53
I believe Gatsby was making this comment because the OP had mentioned that he wasn't interested in the powergaming scene. In fact, it didn't seem to me at all the the OP was even aware of how potentially powerful the list was- he just liked the theme behind it.

Much the same how some of the new recruits at my local gaming store want to take "All trees" in their wood elf army, perhaps considering it a relatively new concept.

EvC
18-09-2008, 02:21
Yes, but it's when people add Khorne to their "themed" Tzeentch army, or a BSB to their "Forest Spirits" army that it becomes clear: the theme is simply winning at all costs.

jimbob78
18-09-2008, 21:33
Sounds good... Personally, I'd replace Kairos with a LOC for the missing combat potential. Or you could have Skulltaker as his 'bodyguard'.

jimbob78
18-09-2008, 22:20
Sounds good... Personally, I'd replace Kairos with a LOC for the missing combat potential. Or you could have Skulltaker as his 'bodyguard'.

Da Black Gobbo
19-09-2008, 09:45
Again i have to say, i did the list and i thought is was trully powerfull, but again i'm not a WAAC player, i use to play for fun, but i just wanted to make the ubercheese list not playing it, i've never played that list, and probably i will never do it. I think some of you guys have recieved some horrible defeats in tourneys, i feel a lot of animosity against cheese lists ^^.

Akuma
19-09-2008, 11:47
One thing - If you hit High Elves - your Dead - Kairos I = 1 Teclis takes shadow - taclis Pit of Shades you - wham - end of the game - other then this metch up i't pretty standard tzeensh spam magic list - I would stear clear of it as Khorne has so much better stuff and magic tends to get even more risky ( Ring of Hotek )

theunwantedbeing
19-09-2008, 12:26
If you want competetive.

Dont take Kairos, he sucks in combat...he really sucks.
A standard lord of change is not really any different at casting but is far tougher and harder in combat.
Plus a standard lord of change isnt guaranteed to lose a combat vs 4 fast cav with a musician, kairos is(unless he has the flaming sword, then he'll be guaranteed to lose to 5 with a banner and musician).

Flesh hounds are better than juggernaughts.
Sure juggernaughts get the armour save and hit marginally harder, but they are slower and get way less magic resistance and are twice as expensive for the same number of wounds (as well as taking up the same space on the battlefield).
Juggernaughts just have too few wounds in so many points. They're not too difficult to kill even with things like bows.
2 wounds takes a huge chunk of their killing power.

Even so, you need furies and such to properly guard your list and pretect against artillery and the like.
If you faced an elf opponent with 4 bolt throwers, they can very easily remove your bloodcrushers before they see combat, if its a HE army then it's even easier as they get curse of arrow attraction they CAN cast against you as they only get MR(1).

Similarly vs the Wind of Undeath, that magic resistance(3) will be key in stopping it...whereas magic resistance(1) just doesnt help much.

rottahn
19-09-2008, 13:56
Well, this list is really powerful, no doubt about that, howerver, nobody would show you respect when using such cheesy list. And wining with this list doesn't mean you are a strong player but the list itself. the best player is the one who uses weak army and still manage to win handy, and with this infamous list when you win, people won't gg with you, and if you lose, get ready to take lot of laugh.

IMO the whole book of daemons is cheesy. when it was storm of chaos it was waaay more balanced. now its just chaoticly destructive. you can be a total noob and do well with this army.

lots of things in the armylist, and daemonic gifts say "u win" if u read deep enough :)

the part i dont like about the above list, is that it cant really fight in close combat. if u fight a cav army or something random, and they go first youre gonna be in a world of hurt.

Mannfred
23-09-2008, 13:14
Hahah i have just the army that will screw u over; it's High Elves; haha i faced a similar army like urs in a tournament and i'm sure the guy wasn't happy when he saw wat i had install for him... 12 Dragon Princes with a Lion Standard and also a BSB with World Dragon Standard and then a Prince with like seriously death on a stick....He couldn't touch that unit; Dragon Armour immunity to fire and World Dragon Standard immune to magic; Lion standard immune to fear and terror....I'm sorry i literally kicked his **** with it....It was like so so so funny....he was like 14 knights and just went bolt of change on it; got a pretty sweet roll....8 hits at str 10 but yeah pity....

Da Black Gobbo
23-09-2008, 15:28
Hahah i have just the army that will screw u over; it's High Elves; haha i faced a similar army like urs in a tournament and i'm sure the guy wasn't happy when he saw wat i had install for him... 12 Dragon Princes with a Lion Standard and also a BSB with World Dragon Standard and then a Prince with like seriously death on a stick....He couldn't touch that unit; Dragon Armour immunity to fire and World Dragon Standard immune to magic; Lion standard immune to fear and terror....I'm sorry i literally kicked his **** with it....It was like so so so funny....he was like 14 knights and just went bolt of change on it; got a pretty sweet roll....8 hits at str 10 but yeah pity....


This is the kind of things that anoy me, did i ask you if i care if you can kick my ****?? did i ask, do you think you can do a list to kick this army??? why no one says you have a cheesy list full of freaking Dragon princes and blabla?? why so much hate? is just a damm list with lots of magic that pretends to be effective in a competitive area, not a nerd "friendly but i screw you waac list". Anyways thank you for your comments.