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Phoenix Blaze
11-09-2008, 12:22
Right, my knowledge of the Dark Angels is a bit rusty. So, here we go, Death Wing termies have the bone white armour, but aren't the Death Wing just the 1st company of the Dark Angels? In which case, is it only the 1st company terminators who have bone white armour, and regular guys in power armour, like the command structure have the dark green? In the novel Angels of Darkness, there's a bit where power armoured marines paint their armour white as they've just been inducted into the 1st company.

So, can someone give me some good answers? Do power armoured members of the Dark Angels 1st company have bone white armour or the standard dark green?

Argastes
11-09-2008, 13:36
According to the fluff, ALL members of the Deathwing have bone-white armor. So the bone-white armor should be worn not only by Deathwing terminators, but also power-armored Dark Angels veterans, and by chapter officers such as Azrael, etc., because all the chapter's senior officers have been inducted into the Deathwing even if they are not actually members of the Deathwing company (note that GW's painters ignored this fact, and painted the studio's Azrael model with dark green armor).

However, as I understand it, the Deathwing is unique from other chapter's First Companies in that they use very few power-armored vets, and almost always take to the field in terminator armor only (although the most recent DA codex I own is the 2nd Edition Angels of Death codex, and there have been two more DA codices since then, so maybe this has been changed somewhat). But if/when the Deathwing do use power armor, then yes, it should be bone-white also.

Phoenix Blaze
11-09-2008, 13:55
It was actually the studio Azrael and his DA Green armour that made me think of the situation. Although, studio painters getting things wrong is hardly new. The ever so classic Cypher in green armour still stands to thise day, even when they painted him up again for the current DA codex, they still had him in green armour!

pookie
11-09-2008, 14:48
teh studios Azreal tho iirc was painted that way because of the 'rule of cool' givinghim bone white robe seemed to GW a better idea than BW armour ( it goes back to 2nd edition )

gideon0330
11-09-2008, 14:53
Right, my knowledge of the Dark Angels is a bit rusty. So, here we go, Death Wing termies have the bone white armour, but aren't the Death Wing just the 1st company of the Dark Angels? In which case, is it only the 1st company terminators who have bone white armour, and regular guys in power armour, like the command structure have the dark green? In the novel Angels of Darkness, there's a bit where power armoured marines paint their armour white as they've just been inducted into the 1st company.

So, can someone give me some good answers? Do power armoured members of the Dark Angels 1st company have bone white armour or the standard dark green?

Deathwing, the Dark Angels 1st Company, all wear bone-white Terminator Armor Only. Their are no power-armored vets in the 1st company. All members of the 1st company, and 1st company only wear this paint scheme. So Azrael would wear green armor as he is not a member of the 1st company, he's the Supreme Grand Master. Dark Angel Vets wear Green Armor also, to show they are vets, in the current codex, they wear bone-white robes.

TheLionReturns
11-09-2008, 15:59
It can be a bit confusing as Deathwing is used in a couple of ways. Firstly Deathwing is the name of the 1st company. They are only ever fielded in terminator armour and it is always bone coloured. The power armoured company veterans that appear in the army list refer to squads made up of the most experienced marines in each battle company, they have nothing to do with the 1st company.

Deathwing is also used as a collective term for the members of the chapter who have knowledge of the fallen, which includes members of the 1st company. These individuals do not have to be attached to the 1st company, for example Azrael or Ezekiel and so do not wear the bone armour.

Those attached to the 1st company wear bone, those attached to the 2nd company wear black, whilst everyone else wears green (with the excpetion of librarians, chaplains, techmarines and apothercaries).

Wintermute
11-09-2008, 18:48
Deathwing is also used as a collective term for the members of the chapter who have knowledge of the fallen, which includes members of the 1st company. These individuals do not have to be attached to the 1st company, for example Azrael or Ezekiel and so do not wear the bone armour.

Its not that simple. Not all DA who are aware of the Fallen are Deathwing, they are members of the Inner Circle eg the Master of the Forge. All senior officers of the DA are members of the Inner Circle, but not necessarily Deathwing.

Well thats how I understand it in light of the most recent DA Codex. All previous DA codex DID confuse Inner Circle with Deathwing.

TheLionReturns
11-09-2008, 21:42
Its not that simple. Not all DA who are aware of the Fallen are Deathwing, they are members of the Inner Circle eg the Master of the Forge. All senior officers of the DA are members of the Inner Circle, but not necessarily Deathwing.

Well thats how I understand it in light of the most recent DA Codex. All previous DA codex DID confuse Inner Circle with Deathwing.

That was what I was getting at really, that "Deathwing" has had two different definitions, being used in seperate occasions to either mean:

1. Members of the 1st Company.

or

2. Those with knowledge of the Fallen.

As you say Azrael has been described as Deathwing following the 2nd definition, but doesn't fall into the first category and this causes confusion. You are probably right that this has been resolved in the most recent codex and the terms Deathwing and Inner Circle are used correctly to distinguish the two groups properly. I am probably just remembering the confusing aspect of the use of the term Deathwing in the of older fluff.

malika
11-09-2008, 22:43
Maybe Azrael wears his green armour to show that he is "one of the Dark Angels" and not purely a Death Wing marine?

Didn't the Death Wing change their colour to bone/white somewhere in m40/m41 when a lonely Terminator squad saved some world from a Genestealer infestation?

So what was the colour of their armour before that? Pre-heresy black or post-heresy green?

Dryaktylus
12-09-2008, 01:01
So what was the colour of their armour before that? Pre-heresy black or post-heresy green?

Black (in earlier 1. edition this was also the main colour of the whole chapter)


Didn't the Death Wing change their colour to bone/white somewhere in m40/m41 when a lonely Terminator squad saved some world from a Genestealer infestation?

It's described in the "Deathwing" novel (from King/Ansell) - but there were 30 Terminators and five survivors... a time when Stealers were a bit tougher:D The time is unknown as the name of the planet. Main characters were Captain Cloud Runner alias Ezekiel (not the scriptor) and Two Heads Talking alias Lucian (the latter died together with the Genestealer Patriarch). White was the colour of death in the tradition of the natives of the world (also the original home of the marines) and they painted their armour this way as a symbol, that this fight was not for the emperor but for their people (and they didn't expect to survive).

PotatoLegs
12-09-2008, 01:24
Adding my five cents to say that Azrael is indeed a member of the Deathwing. All Company Masters and inductees of the Inner Circle are as well, so that includes Interrogator Chaplains and Librarians.

Or rather think of it this way: the Inner Circle is a smaller group of higher ranking DAs with the Deathwing that are privvy to more information about the fall

Wintermute
12-09-2008, 06:58
To confuse matters even futher Azrael did command the Deathwing (he was the Master of the Deathwing) before he became Supreme Grand Master of the Dark Angels.

Gorbad Ironclaw
12-09-2008, 08:46
However, as I understand it, the Deathwing is unique from other chapter's First Companies in that they use very few power-armored

You mean very few as in none? The Deathwing always takes to the field in terminator armour. The only power armoured vets are the strange new invention of company veterans.

Lion El Jason
12-09-2008, 09:19
OK, to summarise and clarify:

Deathwing refers to two separate and overlapping groups:
1: The Dark Angels First Company
2: The "Secret Club" of Dark Angels who know of the chapters secrets.

The Inner Circle is a small group all of whom are in the Deathwing "Club" but not necessessarily the first company.

All members of the first company are in the club.

ONLY the first company terminators should have bone white armour, no other troops, vehicles or anything else should. (The 'Eavy metal team made a mistake in the codex).
Thats why Azrael as supreme grand master wears green armour, he's not a part of the first company.
Other troops wear white robes to show their membership of the "Club"

Dreadnoughts are debatable, venerable dreads from the first company could have either armour, I prefer green, others use white.

dblaz3r
13-09-2008, 02:52
Coincidentally I was just about to post this very question as I'm about to start painting my company commander :D
In regards to 1st company vehicles, would these not be painted bone do differentiate from the regular company vehicles?
Oh and also deathwing chaplains? Do they still wear the traditional black armour or go bone? Green shoulder pads or bone?

Wintermute
13-09-2008, 09:54
Coincidentally I was just about to post this very question as I'm about to start painting my company commander :D
In regards to 1st company vehicles, would these not be painted bone do differentiate from the regular company vehicles?
Oh and also deathwing chaplains? Do they still wear the traditional black armour or go bone? Green shoulder pads or bone?

On the subject of Vehicles, its personal choice (as with all painting). I firmly believe only Terminator armour should be painted bone white, but both GW and Forge World have published images and models of Land Raiders in bone white (which just looks very wrong to me).

As for chaplains, they always wear black armour whether they are in power armour or terminator armour.

LexxBomb
13-09-2008, 10:57
The Simple way of working this out is
1. All Deathwing wear White.
Who are Deathwing
DeathWing are Technically any Dark Angel Space Marine who knows about the Fallen.
"The Deathwing" is the Official Designation of the DA 1st Company
As well as the 1st Company, the Deathwing (not to be missread as The Deathwing) contain the 1st company and all marines who know about the fallen and this includes: Chaplins (technicaly know only the Interigator chaplins -4th codex previously all where), Librarians
members of the Inner Circle (Azrael, commanders of the 1-5 Companies and key personel),
and any marine who discovers the 'truth' of the chapters past and the fallen.

Chaplins must war black do Imperial Edict- so Deathwing Chapliuns wear a white Robe
Librarians must wear Blue due to he same Imperial Edict

Technically Company commanders who are members of the inner circle of the deathwing should be wearing white armour but will probably wear green armour with a white robe because they have been promoted out of The Deathwing.

There can only ever be one member of the Ravenwing who knows about the Fallen and this is their commander/captain.


Previously before the Deathwing where white they wore the Original Black of the Lewgion and where probably called The Order. The company took the name of the Thunderhawk that carried the squad of terminators to their homeworld. (no reference of Deathwing in Descent of Anges only Ravenwing)

samiens
13-09-2008, 11:32
Actually, there is mention of a deathwing as a native creature of Caliban- but its fair to assume that the dropship could have been named after these presumably winged beasts. Then, I've also heard people suggest that the broken sword on the Deathwing banner (and the broken sword itself) is the Lion Sword, even though its quite clear from the original fluff that its the symbol of Brother-Captain Gabriel 'Broken Knife' who took on the Deathwing after Cloud runner's Last stand (Far cooler name than the tale of Two-heads talking- and an awesome solo-Space Hulk mission) and lead them on their first reliveried mission onto a space hulk.

The point of all this (apart from making me feel old!): The background is mutable to a certain degree. Originally Librarians wore white armour with the Deathwing (see the Genestealer box art)- so go with whatever best suits you!

King Vyper
13-09-2008, 13:07
Ok Some Clarification on the Deathwing & Inner Circle.

1) The Deathwing were first mention in the expansion for Space Hulk Boardgame called "Deathwing" released in 1990.

Brief Synopsis: After the Heresy, the Dark Angels recruited from a single planet (known as the Plains World) whose inhabitants resembled Native Americans. Sometime before the 41st Millennium a group of returning Deathwing found that their planet had been overrun fifty years earlier by Genestealers, with only a few untainted humans remaining. The Terminators, whose duty and honor required the extermination of the genestealers, prepared themselves for battle. Because the odds of their success were nearly non-existent the Terminators engaged in their native death ritual. Instead of anointing their skin with white ash, they anointed their armor. The Terminators cleansed the world and rescued the enslaved populace, and in honor of those few Terminators, their armor was ever after white. Also, the Dark Angels leadership, The Inner Circle, recognized the folly of relying upon one planet for manpower and so diversified their recruiting grounds.

2) The Deathwing is the First Company of the Space Marines Chapters known as the Unforgiven. The Deathwing and Ravenwing are not part of the Codex Astartes structure system although the remaining companies of the chapter adhere to the Codex.

The Deathwing is unique among the Space Marine chapters in that the entire company fights exclusively in Terminator armour. The company's armour of the original Dark Angels Deathwing was initially painted black, but was changed to a bone white colour. This is a mark of remembrance of the lone squad of Dark Angel Terminators who freed a recruitment world from a Genestealer infestation. As they did not expect to survive such a confrontation, they painted their armour white in preparation for their deaths. In the end the Deathwing triumphed and a vital part of the Dark Angels' heritage was saved. This alteration of the color scheme applies only to the Dark Angels.

More so than the regular Unforgivens, the Deathwing is stubborn and resistant, refusing to buckle under extreme pressure from enemy advances, even when it would be more advantageous to retreat.

When an Unforgiven is promoted to the Deathwing he learns many of the secrets of the Chapter. The biggest of these secrets is that of the betrayal of Luther and the subsequent death of their Primarch, Lion El'Jonson, as well as the ongoing hunt for The Fallen, those Dark Angels who joined Luther in their betrayal of the Emperor and the Imperium.


So if you are a current member of the Dark Angel's Deathwing you are a current member of the 1st Company and wear Terminator Armor painted Bone White. If you are not a member of the 1st company you wear the Chapter Colors.

Argastes
13-09-2008, 13:19
Its not that simple. Not all DA who are aware of the Fallen are Deathwing, they are members of the Inner Circle eg the Master of the Forge. All senior officers of the DA are members of the Inner Circle, but not necessarily Deathwing.

Well thats how I understand it in light of the most recent DA Codex. All previous DA codex DID confuse Inner Circle with Deathwing.

I don't know about the 3rd Edition codex, but the Angels of Death codex did not confuse the Inner Circle and the Deathwing. AOD made the relationship between the Inner Circle and the Deathwing quite clear, and according to it, what you are saying here is incorrect. It is impossible to a member of the Inner Circle without being a member of the Deathwing, because the Inner Circle is a special group within the Deathwing; all Inner Circle members are Deathwing members, but not all Deathwing members are Inner Circle members. AOD makes it clear that as a Dark Angel gains seniority, he is inducted into a series of increasingly small and increasingly in-the-know groups, each of which is a subset of the previous group; if you visually charted the organizational structure here, it would look like a series of concentric circles. The largest circle would be the DA chapter itself, which obviously includes all DAs. Within that circle would be the Deathwing, which presumably includes about 10% of all DAs, including all of those who serve in the first company (which contains the bulk of the Deathwing members and is itself referred to as "the Deathwing"). Within the Deathwing circle would be several more increasingly small concentric circles, representing the higher levels of knowledge to which Deathwing members are inducted as they gain seniority. The smallest and innermost of these circles would be, of course, the Inner Circle, which only contains high-ranking Chapter officers (we don't know the names of any of the levels of knowledge between the Deathwing and the Inner Circle). A DA who is a member of one group is also a member of all the larger groups of which that group is a subset. So a Deathwing member is of course also a member of the DA chapter as a whole; a member of the group that is one level above the Deathwing is a member of that group as well as the Deathwing and the chapter as a whole; and a member of the Inner Circle is also a member of all the other larger and less exclusive "circles of knowledge" below the Inner Circle, including the Deathwing, and of course the chapter as a whole.

Argastes
13-09-2008, 13:25
So if you are a current member of the Dark Angel's Deathwing you are a current member of the 1st Company and wear Terminator Armor painted Bone White.

This is true of most, but not all, Deathwing members. Senior chapter officers such as the Chapter Master, the Interrogator Chaplains, the Chief Librarian, the Company Masters, and so forth are all members of the Deathwing, but they do not wear bone-white terminator armor and, on a TO&E, are not members of the First Company.

Lion El Jason
13-09-2008, 14:40
Looks like some more confusion here...

Firstly the deathwing (All Dark Angels who know the chapters secrets) do not all have white armour. This has never been the case.
The Deathwing (1st company) all have white armour.

You cannot be "Promoted out of the deathwing. Theres no where to go, Azrael is supreme grand master of the legion...sorry chapter ;) and he's i the deathwing.

The old Deathwing story by Bryan Ansell and Bill King is not actual history. Its a story told to DA recruits to get them used to the idea of coming home and finding their allies and friends have turned against them. (See C: DA P16)

Now since only the first company wear white armour and there is no Deathwing Company Chaplain (C: DA P15) All chaplains in terminator armour will have black armour and a green shoulder pad.
Similarly for librarians, blue armour and a green shoulder pad.
Apothecaries however, are supposed to wear white but they will instead have their armour Deathwing coloured as the terminator medic is part of the 1st company.

Argastes is correct, the inner circle is indeed the inner circle of the deathwing -Its been stated that just as a marine is told some secrets on being inducted into the deathwing, he can learn more as he advances through the complex structure (Advancing through ranks) of the deathwing until the inner circle know all but the final secret, which is left only to Azrael himself.

Argastes
13-09-2008, 15:53
Its been stated that just as a marine is told some secrets on being inducted into the deathwing, he can learn more as he advances through the complex structure (Advancing through ranks) of the deathwing until the inner circle know all but the final secret, which is left only to Azrael himself.

Even Azrael doesn't know the FINAL secret--only the Emperor does ;).

EDIT: Wait--Azrael isn't the only one who knows about Luther being imprisoned in the Rock, is he? At least the Interrogator-Chaplains must know as well.

LexxBomb
13-09-2008, 23:23
nope only the supreme grand master has the rigt to interigate Luthor... Chaplains dont. they might be able to interigate the fallen Astalean who is in the cell next to him.

Argastes
14-09-2008, 01:49
nope only the supreme grand master has the rigt to interigate Luthor... Chaplains dont. they might be able to interigate the fallen Astalean who is in the cell next to him.

Right, but just because the Interrogator-Chaplains aren't allowed to interrogate Luthor doesn't mean they don't know that he is alive and imprisoned in the Rock's dungeons. I was under the impression that knowledge of this fact is given to all members of the Inner Circle, so it would known not only by Azrael, but by the Chaplains, Librarians, and Company Masters. The Inner Circle is supposed to be the final and highest tier of knowledge in the DA hierarchy, whose members are finally told everything that the DA know about their early history, including Luthor's survival of the destruction of Caliban and subsequent imprisonment in the Rock. There aren't supposed to be any more levels of knowledge after the Inner Circle; once you are in the Inner Circle, there's no more room for advancement, and there is no-one in the DA chapter who knows more than you. All Inner Circle members are equals in terms of what they know. So I'm not sure what Lion El Jason is referring to when he mentions a "final secret" that is known only to Azrael; Azrael isn't supposed to be sole member of some kind of "Inner Inner Circle" that knows even more than the other Inner Circle members. The real "final secret" of the Dark Angels isn't known to ANY Dark Angel, even the Supreme Grand Master; only the Emperor knows it.

LexxBomb
14-09-2008, 07:40
The sole secret is that The Lion has already forgiven Luthor and that he is comming back.
That is what Luthor always tells people (as well as telling the future)

or he could be eluding to the idea that the current Dark Angels are infact the ones who sided with Chaos and that the 'fallen' where actually7 loyal to the Emperor... See Astelan in Angels of Darkness.

TheDarkDaff
14-09-2008, 11:23
@Argastes - There are levels of knowledge within the Deathwing and there are the same sort of levels inside the Inner Circle (the final such level seems to currently consist of Azreal, Ezekeil and Saphon). There are also circles that encompass the entire structure of the Unforgiven as a whole (the Chapter Masters are ultimately lead by Azreal).

Argastes
14-09-2008, 14:27
@Argastes - There are levels of knowledge within the Deathwing and there are the same sort of levels inside the Inner Circle (the final such level seems to currently consist of Azreal, Ezekeil and Saphon). There are also circles that encompass the entire structure of the Unforgiven as a whole (the Chapter Masters are ultimately lead by Azreal).

Hmm. Yeah, I know there are levels of knowledge within the Deathwing--those levels are the various increasingly small and exclusive "circles" of initiation, culminating with the Inner Circle (to the best of my knowledge, we are never told the names of any of the levels between the Deathwing and the Inner Circle). But where has it ever been said that the Inner Circle itself--which is explicitly referred to as the "final level"--is similarly subdivided? How could the Inner Circle be the final level of knowledge if it too contains even more subgroups of varying knowledge levels?


The sole secret is that The Lion has already forgiven Luthor and that he is comming back.
That is what Luthor always tells people (as well as telling the future)

Hmmmmmm. That may be true, but is it really a "secret" of the Dark Angels? It would only really be considered as such if the Dark Angels believed it to be true; otherwise, it seems like they would just view it as more of Luthor's ranting. Also, I thought Luthor always told people that the Lion WILL forgive him when he returns, not that he already has forgiven him?

At any rate, isn't the FINAL secret really that The Lion is sleeping in a chamber at the heart of The Rock, in some sort of suspended animation, and will return when he's needed? Not even Azrael knows this.


or he could be eluding to the idea that the current Dark Angels are infact the ones who sided with Chaos and that the 'fallen' where actually7 loyal to the Emperor... See Astelan in Angels of Darkness.

Wow, THAT is a doozy! I never really read GW novels so I had never heard that before... I like it, it adds a more compelling dimension to the idea that the Dark Angels have this terrible shameful secret that could be their damnation. IMO, their "terrible secret" being that some of their members turned to Chaos during the heresy was never THAT terrible and shameful; but if what Astelan says is true, then yeah. So only Azrael knows that? But earlier someone said that the Interrogator Chaplains are allowed to interrogate Astelan too, so wouldn't they have heard that from him as well? Or do they hear it from him but dismiss it as blasphemous lies, and only the Chapter Master knows it's really true?

LexxBomb
15-09-2008, 00:30
spolier

a lot of Dark Angel fanboiys get really angry when ever Astelan is mentioned becauyse he is a fallen commmander. In fact he was Force Comander of a DArk Angel Chapter before the Lion joined the Legion. as such he was a first Generation Marine from Terra not coaliban and tyhe problems he alluded to arte that Johnson did not trust any of the Original Legion.

The Only Chaplin who interigated Astelanm ended up being effectively expelled from the Chaplter and ended up killing himself and a small squad of Space Marines with melta bombs

No one is sure if what Astelan says should be trusted as he is a fallen.

my personal belief is that some of what he says is true such as the lions inability to trust and that Astalean was the one to start the defence lasers firing hence starting the battle of Caliban

dblaz3r
16-09-2008, 06:17
If Azrael was the holder of the greatest secret then who would know it if he died? Doesn't really make sense to only have one with that knowledge .

Variel
16-09-2008, 12:14
personally as a dark angels person.
the deepest secret isnt even known by anyone except the god-emperor and the watchers in the dark.

and that is that further and deeper within the rock then which luther is placed is our primarch the lion.
sleeping in a tomb which isnt accessible. and is therefor said he would return to lead his chapter in the final battle against the traitor legions.