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Malorian
11-09-2008, 15:23
So the local DE player said I could only write a battle report for our battles if i used a fully painted army, so it was time to break out the wood elves. Unfortunately I didn't have my camera so you'll have to suffer through this battle report without any pictures.

This was my army:

Highborn w/ light armor, enchanted shield, spear, bow of loren, arcane bodkins (224) on a forest dragon (320)

Noble w/ light armor, shield, spear, horse, hail of doom arrow, asyendi's bane (133)

10 glade guard (120)
10 glade guard (120)
10 glade guard (120)
10 glade guard (120)
5 glade riders w/ musician (129)
5 glade riders w/ musician (129)
5 glade riders w/ musician (129)
8 dryads (96)

3 warhawk riders (120)

5 waywatchers (120)
5 waywatchers (120)

Total: 2000


His army:

Lvl 2 sorceress w/ sacrificial dagger, pearl of infinite bleakness (185)(general)
Lvl 2 sorceress w/ focus familiar, power stone (180)

20 Spear men w/ shields, full command (155)
20 corsairs w/ full command (225)
20 corsairs w/ full command (225)
10 crossbowmen w/ shields (110)
10 crossbowmen w/ shields (110)
10 crossbowmen w/ shields (110)
10 crossbowmen w/ shields (110)
Assassin w/ 2 hand weapons, touch of death, rune of khaine (151)
Assassin w/ 2 hand weapons, touch of death, rune of khaine (151)

Hydra (175)
2 bolt throwers (200)

Total: 2087...??? He made his list quickly so he must have made a mistake...


The board was 4X6. There was a hill in the right of his deployment zone and a forest on the left side. There was a forest on the left side of my deployment zone, and a long hill across the back of it. On the right flank there was another forest. I placed my free forest as far up and just left of the center.

He deployed his hydra on the left flank, then from left to right there was: crossbowmen w/ familiar soceress, crossbowmen, corsairs, spearmen w/ dagger sorceress, corsairs. Then on the hill were the bolt throwers with the other two units of crossbowmen in front (the one on the right was further up than the one on the left). All crossbowmen were deployed as 5X2.

All my archers in a long line across the back of my deployment zone (6 inches up so that if he got first turn I would still be out of range of the crossbowmen). The dryads were behind my free trees in the center. On the left flank was a unit of glade riders w/ noble, and on the right flank was the highborn, warhawks and the other two units of glade riders. The waywatchers both went into the forest on the right flank.

He got first turn:


Pre-game thoughts: Although he didn't have tons of magic, I had ZERO magic defence, so it was time for me to put my money where my mouth was that magic isn't all that bad. My plan was to hit the hydra with the hail of doom, and then run around it while it tried to hit me with it's weakened breath weapon. I wanted to knock out his bolt throwers first turn so that the dragon could freely cause havoc on his infantry, and if they moved up first turn I could even charge them first turn (although I was worried as I had no idea where those assassins were hiding...). Other than that... shoot em up : )


Turn 1 DE:

The familiar mage moved into the woods on the left, and other than that EVERYTHING marched up (other than the bolt throwers of course), which took me by surprise as he has always been a more defensive player. In the magic phase the familiar popped out of the trees to give LOS (assume from now on that this happens every turn) and she gains another 4 powerdice. With these she casts blade wind on the dryads killing 4, and chill wind on the glade guard but failed to wound. The other mage also failed to wound. In the shooting phase a single bolt failed to wound my dragon, and the other bolt thrower missed (not a good start for him).

Turn 1 WE:

Since he had moved so far up I decided to take out the crossbowmen on the right as early as I could (plus he ALWAYS puts his assassins in his combat units) to the warhawks charged the left unit (taking 1 wound from stand and shoot) and the dragon charged the right unit. The waywatchers and a rider unit moved up the right flank towards his warmachines, and the other rider unit moved behind the dragon to face the center. The noble and his riders got a bit closer to the hydra. The dryads move towards the crossbowmen on the left. In the shooting phase I send hail of doom at the hydra and only do 1 wound (crap...) but my waywatchers/riders get lucky and wipe out the crew from both bolt throwers. Archers kill 4 spearmen and 3 crossbowmen from the far left unit (who pass their panic test). In the warhawk combat an assassin jumps out (crap...) and kills two of my warhawks. The last one kills 1 spearmen and then hit and runs away. In the other combat an assassin jumps out (double crap...) and killing blows my highborn. My dragon fails its monster reaction test and is now stupid. The dragon kills the assassin and then holds.

Turn 2 DE:

The crossbowmen unit that just beat my warhawks fails their terror test and runs over the right corsairs (whp pass their panic). The full crossbowmen unit on the left tries to charge my dryads but fail their fear test. Hydra moves towards my noble. Infantry move up. In the magic phase I stop the familiar mage from getting more dice, but she casts blade wind on my left glade guard unit and kills 1. Other mage hits the riders behind my dragon with chill wind and kill 1. (She had tried to generate mroe dice but even after killing a spearmen she still failed to cast the spell). In the shooting phase the crossbowmen on the left kill two glade guard from my left unit. The hydra kills 1 rider from the nobles unit. In the dragon combat the dragon kills 3 crossbowmen and they hold.

Turn 2 WE:

Dryads charge the weakened crossbowmen unit and lose 1 to stand and shoot. A unit of waywatchers charge the flank of the crossbowmen fighting the dragon. The riders effected by chillwind charge the right unit of corsairs. It's REALLY close to being a flank charge, but we rule that it is a frontal charge. Noble's unit moves towards the hiding mage. Lone warhawk flies behind his infanty to march block. Waywatchers and other riders move a bit closer to his rear. In the shooting phase I kill 4 crossbowmen from the fleeing unit. Noble shoots at hydra to no effect. Archers kill 2 corsairs from the left unit and 4 spearmen. In combat the waywatchers only kill 1 crossbowmen, but the dragon kills 5. They break and I try to not pursue (since they will run into the riders anyway) but I fail both and both units run up in front of his hill. The riders kill 1 corsair and then are wiped out (wouldn't have even mattered if it had been a flank...). Dryads kill 3 crossbowmen and he kills a dryad and holds.

Turn 3 DE:

Crossbowmen rally and face towards the waywatchers. Hydra moves towards the nobles riders, and the march blocked infantry moves up. In the magic phase bladewind kills 2 archers from the left unit, and 3 from the archer unit second from the right. Shooting kills and other two archers on the left and the hydra flames two riders (I pass panic). I combat the dryads kill 2 crossbowmen, and they flee and are run down.

Turn 3 WE:

Dragon fails stupidity and stubbles up onto the hill. Waywatchers and riders move back from the assassin's crossbowmen, and the noble moves to the side of the hydra. Dryads move into the left forest an inch away from the hiding sorceress. Warhawk continues to march block. In the shooting phase I leave only the assassin and two crossbowmen alive in that unit. All archers pump into the spearmen to deadly effect (short range now) and only leave the sorceress with 1 wound and the banner bearer. Still can't hurt the hydra.

Turn 4 DE:

Assassin ditches the unit (moving towards the center) and the two crossbowmen move towards the waywatchers. The hydra turns towards the noble. The Infantry moves up and the sorceress joins the right corsair unit. The hiding sorceress moves out of LOS of the dryads. In the magic phase the dryads are wiped out by bladewind. Soul steal kills 1 archer and then she miscasts chillwind losing a wound. In the shooting phase he kills another archer (leaving only 1) in the left unit, and the hydra kills the other riders and does a wound to the noble.

Turn 4 WE:

Stupidity is passed and the dragon flies behind the corsairs. All the archers do a 2.5 shuffle back. Noble moves to the side of the hydra again. In the shooting phase I wipe out the two crossbowmen. The dragon's breath kills 3 corsairs from the left unit. I fail to kill the single spearmen. Archers kill 6 corsairs from the right unit and 5 from the left unit. The left corsairs fail their panic and run.

Turn 5 DE:

Corsairs rally. Hydra turns towards the noble. Other infantry moves up. In the magic phase my right archers lose 5 models to bladewind and the second left unit loses 2 to chillwind. The hydra kills the noble and the crossbowmen kill 3 archers from the second left unit. They panic and run off the board.

Turn 5 WE:

Dragon charges the rear of the right corsair unit. Waywatchers and the riders move to hunt down the lone assassin. In the shooting phase the assassin is assassinated (hehe), the lone spearmen is killed, and I kill a few more of the rallied corsairs. In combat the dragon kills 5 corsairs and run them down.

Turn 6 DE:

Familiar sorceress moves towards the waywatchers (but stays in the woods). In the magic phase a unit of waywatchers is hit with bladewind and chillwind and the 1 left standing panics and runs away. In the shooting phase the lone archer on the left is killed.

Turn WE:

Riders move into his left quarter and waywatchers move into his right. Dragon and archers move up to try and do as much damage to the corsair unit as possible. In the shooting phase the dragon flames 5 corsairs and the archers bring them down to 5 models, but they pass their panic test.

It was a close and bloody battle so we add up the victory points.

DE: 1271 killed + 100 for general + 100 for 1 quarter

WE: 1509.5 killed + 100 for general + 300 for 3 quarters

Minor victory for the woodelves!!!


Post-game thoughts: I told you, magic defense is for wimps ; ) After those assassins jumped out and I only did 1 wound with the hail of doom I though I was in trouble, but march blocking and slowly working him down won the day. At first I thought my left flank plan had been a success, but then I was reminded that the hydra is only 175 points and he had killed the riders, the noble and held the quarter... but I guess I at least kept him from the bulk of my army. So all in all it was a very enjoyable game with most of both armies being killed : )

Thanks for reading.

grumbaki
12-09-2008, 02:03
Congradulations on the win! You definately earned it.

But before you take from this the lesson that magic defense isn't needed, tell me...how would your WE list do against your undead? At 2000 points it has 14 power dice and 3 bound spells. With this wood elf list you could stop...may 2 of the bound spells? Basically, as long as your vampires don't expose themselves, I don't see how this wood elf list would fare. As is, they survived against an army that had 6 powerdice (to your 2 dispel dice). I personally say that 6 power dice in 2000 points is a fair list, and one that won't win the game, just support the army.

So again, congrats on your win. If you manage to win against a 14 power dice army (like your VC one, or Blackjack's Tzeench one) without magic defense...well, I think at that point I'd likely report you to the witch hunters because obviously you'd have sold your soul to Tzeench to pull that one off!

Malorian
12-09-2008, 03:00
With this list against tomb kings I'm 3W 0L 1T, and against vampires I'm 2W 0L but that was the old vampires.

I remember one game where I was against orcs and by the second turn I had wiped out his warmachines and fast cav and all I had left was to blast away at his blocks. But this one stupid mage kept getting the spell off where a foot comes down and stomps you and then hits other units and eventually killed enuogh for a minor victory. So I know magic can be a problem, but more times than not I'm able to kill most of the mages pretty quickly.

grumbaki
12-09-2008, 03:09
Well, you impress me as a great player. I doubt that I could survive against any such army without some serious dispelling power. Even against the old VC my dwarfs always had a problem killing enough models to beat them (cannon sniping characters being the only defense that I had). But, given your track record, if you say it can be done then I believe you.

superduperkoopatrooper
12-09-2008, 09:43
Thanks for the report.

Do you think Hail of Doom is worth the shot on the hydra? If it hits 10 times, you can expect about 1 unsaved wound. I know wood elves don't have a lot to deal with monsters like this but had you used it against an infantry block it would at least stripped a rank or two.

I've yet to play against hydras but all I can think of is engaging them with static resolution and breaking them which wood elves struggle to do.

What's the strength of the dragon's breath? You could maybe fry the handlers then force a monster reaction on Ld6. Another option is to engage it with a wide unit of 20mm infantry as you should get about two model's worth of attacks on beastmasters. Perhaps war dancers with 4+ ward? Lack of any static beyond maybe outnumbering would be a big risk though. If you can kill the handlers though the hydra's Ld is terrible.

Glorfindel
12-09-2008, 12:11
Breath attacks could do it but in cc the attacks have to be directed vs the hydra.

Nice battlereport btw. I can't help but notice his blade winds didn't do much damage though :). The spell is probably better against low ws troops :)

Malorian
12-09-2008, 12:16
superduperkoopatrooper: I didn't expect to kill the hydra, I just wanted to do some wounds to reduce the str of his breath weapon. I hoped for more than 1 wound though. (It's str is equal to its remaining wounds if you didn't know.)

GodlessM
12-09-2008, 12:35
Call me paranoid, but those Assassins were very conveniently placed

Iskiab
14-09-2008, 15:30
Yes, conveniently placed in the troops on the other side from all his infantry.... where he knows you have a dragon and flying troops.

Welcome to fighting a dark elf general.

Feefait
16-09-2008, 12:47
Nice win. That was definetly a bloody battle. The Hydra seemed well worth it. When I first read your army list i missed the dragon and I was wondering. hehe

I think this would be one army you could get away with a lack of magic defense. That much shooting is going to rival a decent magic phase. Too bad about HoD. I have never used it as I always wonder at it's effectiveness. Of course I've only played WE 2 or 3 times and am still experimenting.

Malorian
16-09-2008, 14:27
I find that HoD is a must. There are times when I just need to wipe out a unit (like an organ gun or outriders) and I can't depend on regular shooting.

It's just that sometimes you don't get lucky : )

Kidjal
17-09-2008, 08:57
Interesting. I take a forrest dragon myself now, and I was beggining to feel a little cheesey. I feel better about it now! To be honest, in my first few forrays with welves I felt that they needed that extra strength and were more justified in it than say High Elves.


I've been taking wild riders myself, and enjoying the fear causing element after being on the end of undead charges as empire for ages.

SevenSins
20-09-2008, 21:35
another nice rep malorian, your no-magic approach is interesting. Do you think any armies besides WE can reliably pull it off?

SirA
20-09-2008, 23:08
the WE list is totally crazy..
i usually dont care much bout the lists postet here, but this is so "strange" i have to add my opinion..
please bare in mind i dont intend to insult you or anything similar, i am just kinda astonished that such lists are actually played..

to start with..you wouldnt be able to move your general at all when facing an opponent who is palying just slightly heavy on magic and have access to the lore of beasts..

futhermore, the following units would all be toast due to missile fire and magic missiles in maximum 3 rounds..

5 glade riders w/ musician (129)
5 glade riders w/ musician (129)
5 glade riders w/ musician (129)
3 warhawk riders (120)

what i am trying to point out, is that list is really unbalanced..
you include a dragon and 40(!!!) glade guard on one hand, but on the other hand only use 8 dryads, no wardancers and no wild riders and have included really weak units like the glade riders and warhawks..

i'd really prefer a more balanced list, the army's bulk formed of 2 units of glade guard, 2 units of dryads, 1-2 units of wardancers, 1-2 wild riders, maybe 1-2 units of glade riders treekin to add something for the fluff AND definitely some proper magic defense..

if you'd play this list in my club you'd either get totally destroyed due to the lack of magic defense or would be have a hard time finding opponents in the future.. who likes guys who use 40 WE archers !?
thats just crazy/lame..
no wonder proper tournaments have a restricion of max US of ~40 of the units that can cause damage in the shooting phase..
you have US over 80 without even taking the hail of doom arrow into account..

my advice is to try and use balanced armies as often as you can..
an army like this one does rarely win or loose due to the general's skill it is simply a question of matchup..
if this list would face a LM army with just 8-9 power dice you wouldn't have to start playing.. and that LM army is not at all magic heavy (just a gen 4 slaan 1 lvl2 skink)

futhermore.. how can you deploy dour dragon in a way that his blotthrowers can actually shoot at you in round1 !??!
even though you had a hill and a wood in your deployment zone AND had the WE forest to place..
hmm..

the fact that the HoD was totally wasted was already pointed out...

to be honest.. the whole thing kinda crazy..
but the DE helped you out quite a lot..
a level 4 mage + a level 2 mage would have made your life a lot harder, killing around 2 of your units per round with magic only..

but as long as you have fun and are lucky with such opponents go for it ;)

Malorian
21-09-2008, 22:10
SirA it works quite well.

There are three main types of WE armies:

1. combat list
2. shooty list
3. tree list

Then of course there are mixes.

I obviously go for the shooty version. To make this work most of my point are moble. I may have 40 archer but theya re really a small portion of my points, and it actually helps me when the opponent is determined to get to them thus allowing my other units to move around.

Now all of my units are weak but with my range I can stay out of range of most missile fire. Any unit that is a problem wither gets hail of doomed or dragoned ; )

You might think this list is crazy, but it has gone up against magic heavy armies and done very well : )

OldMaster
22-09-2008, 06:45
Arrows, arrows, arrows :)
Good battle report.
May I ask about the equipment of your general? I mean, you obviously wanted him to be combat heavy, yet you tooled him out with the Bow of Loren.

The Red Scourge
22-09-2008, 10:00
Interesting. I take a forrest dragon myself now, and I was beggining to feel a little cheesey. I feel better about it now! To be honest, in my first few forrays with welves I felt that they needed that extra strength and were more justified in it than say High Elves.

Nobody needs dragons. IMO they take the fun out of tactics :p

SirA
22-09-2008, 15:00
Nobody needs dragons. IMO they take the fun out of tactics :p

If we extend your opinoin to large fliers, i oppose:
only the HE Star Dragon and the GD of Khorne do that..
its not too hard to deal with the others

@Malorian

frankly said, how well a list works also depends on your opponent..
there is no way you can score vs. eg. a good LM player with such a list..
you only have 2 Dispel Dice
if a Slaan casts the Beast Nr.4 spell with only 4 Power Dice every round and there is nothing you can do about that..
no place you can hide..
if accorind to your rules set this spell needs LOS - the dragon being a lage targe can choose to either hide and not do anything or you will be seen, since at least the Skink Priest can move and draw a line of sight to the dragon..

the glade riders will do no harm at all and the glade guard will be shot at by a nr. of magic missles from the start - in the LM's 2nd round the salamanders will move out of the skirmish shields cover and engage
4*10 glade guard means you loose at least 1 unit per round and an other 1-2 will have to test for panik just because of magic..
if salamanders socre avg. they will also kill at least 50% of a unit per round..

a rushing saurus hero with a 1+ save and the mark of the old ones will have no trouble charing your remaining glade guard..

using only 3 units of skink the LM player will be able to shield almost all of your fire for about 2 rounds from the krox and the cold one riders..

i am really not a friend of theory-hammer but in this case i really feel i must point out how i feel concerning your list..
please dont think i am only trying to be a smart-a$$ - i regularly play vs the top ranked players in my country who are also among the best in europe (eg. ETC) so i am convinced i know what i am talking about

the further remark i made, was concerning the nr. of units in your army that can cause damage in the shooting phase..
most tournamens in my region (central europe) are as far as i know regulated when it comes to shooting..
armies that are fully tuned to one of the elements in the game (mostly concering magic and shooting) are 1st no fun to play against 2nd unreasonable to field..
its just a gamble - no real tactics..
if your shooting works well in a totally shooty army (with reasonable magic defense) you win.. if not you are doomed
if your magic works well in a tally OTT magic army you will win also.. if not you are again doomed

its just a gamble.. no tactics and in lots of cases no fun at all to play against because army choice determines the victor, not skill..

Malorian
22-09-2008, 15:20
Oldmaster: I actually try and keep my lord out of combats. The biggest probem with this list is knights. So this charactercan flybehind them, shoot/breath them up and do a good amount of damage. I only get into combat when it's needed.

SirA: Oh look, another attack on my opponents... *rolls eyes*

The beast cowers has caused me trouble in the past, but really that's noe spell and not many people actually take a slann in 2000 so I'm not that worried.

If you don't think this list needs tactics then you try it. The vast majority of the army has zero armor, so you have to be very careful to take out dangerous shooting targets, march block knights, and force failed charges with the riders so that they don't just rush you.

It's kind of funny that you comment that this army sucks and doesn't stand a chance, and then that it's also a no brainer shootem up list. It shows that you don't understand what is actualy going no with them.

Note: Attacking my opponents is the very reason I'm having trouble finding anyone to play against me and will be responded to harshly.

The Red Scourge
22-09-2008, 15:21
If we extend your opinoin to large fliers, i oppose:
only the HE Star Dragon and the GD of Khorne do that..
its not too hard to deal with the others

I'm not talking about dealing with. I'm talking about using ;)

SirA
22-09-2008, 16:09
The beast cowers has caused me trouble in the past, but really that's noe spell and not many people actually take a slann in 2000 so I'm not that worried.

well, not many ppl take a dragon in a 2000 pts game..
so that isnt really a valid point you are making..

still, i was clearly making an example with the LM army and i think your reacion is a further indicator that the opponents army choice is an extremely really big issue in your games..
i think one should try and construct an army in way that i can face any opponent regardles of their army choice..
even though you are doing well with this army i think you wont have problem admitting that you can be in serious trouble just because the opponent chooses some particular units..
currently the case is simply:
if you opponent plays X you have a great advantage..
if your opponent chooses Y you have a big disadvantage..
i dont think a good player should expose himself to such risk..



If you don't think this list needs tactics then you try it. The vast majority of the army has zero armor, so you have to be very careful to take out dangerous shooting targets, march block knights, and force failed charges with the riders so that they don't just rush you.

i dont think i need to tell you the wast majority of WE has zero to little armor (besides 2 troop types) .. do you think that i would state that WE dont need tactics in general?
if marchblocking your opponent with fast cav. is considered a "tactic" in your opinion.. well what can i say..
surprisingly your "tactic" with a shooty army is slowing them down and shooting them.. while not being charged..
that means: manouver at will with fliers and light cav out of your opponents sight - move a little forward and back again with your shooters..
shoot with everything..
thats not a real tactic in my opinion, thats just what you do as soon as you use the untis you have on your list..

real WE tactics are offering the enemy multiple targes to charge and forcing him into loose-loose situations.. because he knows you can flee without trouble - eg. with the glade riders and giant eagles..
in the mean time you approach from the rear with the wild hunters and wait with eg. treekin for him to expose his flank after having failed charge/reach your fast/flying units
..in the meantime you are shooting his small diverting units..
if he chooses not to charge you, you just keep shooting and marchblocking and threatning bis back/flank

stetting up and creating such situations is tactics. forcing you opponent to play your game while estimating his next move and planning how and where your units can reach him or flee..

again: staying out of sight with light cav and fliers is not hard..
standing and shooting isnt too difficult either..
and that is all your army can do..

the dragon can cause some CC damage but can be taken completely out of play due to your lack of magic defense.. or shot to bits by any army with Warmachines or a fair amount of shooters..
as i have mentioned in my 1st post - you even started the game with your dragon exposed to the enemies reps..
them not hitting on 3+ or failing to cause wounds is just pure luck on your hand..



It's kind of funny that you comment that this army sucks and doesn't stand a chance, and then that it's also a no brainer shootem up list. It shows that you don't understand what is actualy going no with them.

i dont see the problem with my statement.
I also stated that your army is simply a gamble - your success only depending on the opponents army choice (if we are talking about a fairly skilled player)
your army does not stand a chance against the average LM list i have mentioned, because a slaan doesnt care if you marchblock him and you cant really stay out of sight/reach of magic and eg. salamanders.
it is in deed a no brainer "shootem up" list..
choosing which enemy unit to shoot at isnt a real high class disciplin of warhammer..
just as choosing which of your shooters to toast with the LM list isnt..

such armies could be played without the models.. your list justs rolls to shoot and the slaan lists just rolls to cast.. who ever makes most damage wins..
just take notes on a piece of paper.. you dont need the miniatures..

the difference is only that your shooting will become less drastically every round.. and you cant protect yourself from magic

i think now- at latest- my point should be clear


Note: Attacking my opponents is the very reason I'm having trouble finding anyone to play against me and will be responded to harshly.

i dont really know what you mean by that.. but i am not attacking anone.. i just try to help you improve your game..
especially your army-composition

Malorian
22-09-2008, 17:31
Actually more and more people are taking dragons at 2000, but regardless of that that fact that you almost never see a slann at 2000 is still VERY valid. The point that I'm using a dragon is certain, the point that a slann would be used against me (and decide to go with beast cowers) is very rare.

My army is an all comers list as I've taken it and done relatively well against... all comers!

As I've said there are many different ways to play WE. Just because I didn't go with the mixed combat type doesn't mean that my style requires any less tactics. In my case were ONLY the dragon can stand up in combat I have to do my best to slow the enemy and pick my losses carefully. In fact my fliers and fast cav don't always try and stay out of line of sight as that would lead to my downfall in most situations. A lot of the time I need them to block the enemies movement (not just march block) so that they are forced to charge or slowly move around, and then either be forced to have them die or flee and cause a failed charge based on the situation.

If this list is a simple matter of run around and stand and shoot I could just as easily simplify your army as just one that blasts away with a slann and when the opponent gets near you counter with krox. SOOO much tactics there.... Now before you go on a rant on all the things you do do with your lizardmen army and how it's not as simple as my simplification, stop, take a deep breath, and realize you are doing the same thing when you over simplify my army.

It's my army, it does well against all armies, and no matter what the critics say (you NEED magic/you NEED more combat/this is a one trick pony) you can't fight the winning record.

If anything you should like at this as a type of army that challenges what most people say you NEED to have a good all comers list.

SirA
22-09-2008, 19:34
Actually more and more people are taking dragons at 2000, but regardless of that that fact that you almost never see a slann at 2000 is still VERY valid. The point that I'm using a dragon is certain, the point that a slann would be used against me (and decide to go with beast cowers) is very rare.

again, as i have stated previously that the LM list was simply an example..
futhermore it seems like we have to roll with the dragon/slaan idea under 2000pts because obviously our experience or the gaming circle around us differs ;)
(slaan are almost always used in every LM army around here)



My army is an all comers list as I've taken it and done relatively well against... all comers!

calls for a statement like "lets meet at the club and have a game" but i am afraid that is very unlikely to happen due to geographical constraints :D



As I've said there are many different ways to play WE. Just because I didn't go with the mixed combat type doesn't mean that my style requires any less tactics.

since i am not expecting to convince you ill go with a "ok"
but add: do you really think slowing down and shooting at an opponent with a shooty + highly mobile army is an equally difficult tactical task as creating an in game situation to victorously get into CC??



If this list is a simple matter of run around and stand and shoot I could just as easily simplify your army as just one that blasts away with a slann and when the opponent gets near you counter with krox.

you dont have to, i already did that:
(i really try to look all sides of the points i bring up in such a discussion..
i actually hoped thats clear)


... choosing which enemy unit to shoot at isnt a real high class disciplin of warhammer..
just as choosing which of your shooters to toast with the LM list isnt..

..such armies could be played without the models.. your list justs rolls to shoot and the slaan lists just rolls to cast..



also mentioning agin, that tha list isnt my list, it is an example i mentioned.. since having to face a slaan list with 5 spells and 9 PD isnt unrealistic and is in no way a OTT list


It's my army, it does well against all armies, and no matter what the critics say (you NEED magic/you NEED more combat/this is a one trick pony) you can't fight the winning record.

hmm.. i think you asked not to bring you opponents into this discussion..
seems like you are kind of begging for it now ;)



If anything you should like at this as a type of army that challenges what most people say you NEED to have a good all comers list.

i certainly give you that point.
but i must add: if you play well and your opponent does so too, the list is totally lame*, frustrating/boring to play against with some armies and on the other hand vs other armies the list does not stand the slightest chance

we are back to where we started: the list is crazy :D



*lame: since it TOTALLY violates every rational tournament restriction for shooting (US of models that can cause damage in the shooting phase in most cases max. 40 - sala eg. count for US 3)

gd09garett
23-09-2008, 05:08
SNIP
Highborn w/ light armor, enchanted shield, spear, bow of loren, arcane bodkins (224) on a forest dragon (320)

SNIP


What is the thought process behind taking a dragon for basically a ballistic lord? Also, why both the bow and arrows when they cannot be used together?

Volker the Mad Fiddler

Malorian
23-09-2008, 06:01
Reasons for it are earlier in the post, and they can be used together.

gd09garett
23-09-2008, 06:44
Oldmaster: I actually try and keep my lord out of combats. The biggest probem with this list is knights. So this charactercan flybehind them, shoot/breath them up and do a good amount of damage. I only get into combat when it's needed.

SNIP

The dragon seems too expensive in this role for me though may be better than any combat unit you could buy for the price difference of an eagle.

As for the magical bow/arrows, thank you. For some reason I have always read a 'not' in that sentence. I wonder if that is a 5th edition carryover on my part.

Volker the Mad Fiddler

Malorian
23-09-2008, 12:21
The dragon not only has the breath weapon that is great against knights (-3 AS), but he can be used to cause terror and gives me the combat power I need in a pinch.

There is also the matter that players automatically are scared of dragons. Trueth be told my lord sucks in combat (as many of you have seen) but still thanks to many opponents having being terrorized by super combat lords on dragons they tranfer this fear to my dragon and move a lot more carefully. By moving more carefully (and thus slowly) my archers gain a few more rounds of shooting.

Mullitron
24-09-2008, 09:48
Nice battle report, i always enjoy battles between two different elf factions they always seem to be bloody. I like your list, i also see no problem with having a dragon, most games where i live are based around 2000 points, sometimes smaller 1k or 1.5 but larger than 2000 points isnt normaly viable. A dragon is allowed in a 2k army so take it. Go with whatever army you like and whatever you find works for you. It may not be the perfect balanced army of destruction but you did well and seemed to have a fun game.

Peril
09-10-2008, 20:21
I just dropped in to lol at the title of this thread.

I used to get all angry at people who brought dragons, or 15 power dice or whatever ridiculous combinations are out there. I finally had to get it through my head that I am not playing Warhammer Ancients (though I would in a heartbeat were there any players around here) and learn to deal.

Good battle.

necroyp
10-10-2008, 02:33
Malorian I going to say I find that your use of a dragon is what I have found works the best. I have found that dragons with what ever lord being used to charge combat units is the biggest mistake and will most likely loose you the game.

However how I think you use the dragon which is to fly around causing terror, shooting and breath attack. Then when needed either backing another charge or taking out small units works really well.

To the other question some one asked - why you take a dragon over smaller flyer

1. Looks cool.
2. As Malorian states causes enormus fear in oponent.
3. Is hard to take down. A dragon can survive 3-4 bolt throwers per game.

While I think you army is light on magic defense it obviously works for you and is a nasty list that would decieve a lot of people in its effectivness. I also see it as an army that needs a lot of skill and tactics to do well so credit to you.

Thanks for you bat reps they are excellent and provide some good tactical advice. Too bad you don't play warriors of choas then you could help me out much more ;)

GuyLeCheval
17-10-2008, 10:12
Come on guys, stop criticising Malorian or his opponents. this game is about fun, not about keeping nagging about Malorians lists or that of his opponents.
This isn't also about the *bad* generalship of his opponents, but it is about the great generalship of Malorian. He doesn't post this BR to be nagged...

Malorian
17-10-2008, 12:18
They can be critical of me all they want. "You should have done this move." "You should have taken this in your list."

Those kind of comments helps me get better and thus make better battle reports.

It's when my opponents are overly criticised (they can handle some) that I jump in to defend them.

GuyLeCheval
17-10-2008, 16:29
Well, if you think you like being criticised, I'll stop nagging about you being nagged...

marburg100
19-10-2008, 00:37
Ouch I'll have to watch out for assassins lol

Glorfindel
19-10-2008, 20:25
Ouch I'll have to watch out for assassins lol

You bet, my assassin already killed a dwarf lord with shieldbearers.

Keep on using a dragon Malorian, nothing wrong with that.

Aglemar
29-10-2008, 17:34
I think a lot of this match was decided before the game started. The list the Dark Elf player chose to use wasn't very well suited to fight your army, and in my opinion wasn't the best list in general. Some of the biggest strengths a Dark Elf army are its speed/mobility yet he didn't use a single unit that has these. He had no dark riders, no harpies, no shades, no heroes that fly or have a mount. The list just seems to me to focus on the weaknesses of a dark elf list instead of its strengths.

omgadinosaur
31-10-2008, 19:45
I think a lot of this match was decided before the game started. The list the Dark Elf player chose to use wasn't very well suited to fight your army, and in my opinion wasn't the best list in general. Some of the biggest strengths a Dark Elf army are its speed/mobility yet he didn't use a single unit that has these. He had no dark riders, no harpies, no shades, no heroes that fly or have a mount. The list just seems to me to focus on the weaknesses of a dark elf list instead of its strengths.

I agree. When I started reading the list and saw all those crossbows I thought "I have never scene someone take that against wood elves."

If you can beat opponents and have fun with your army then go with it but I second the notion that going against a magic heavy LM, HE, or VC army wont be a fun thing.