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Firaxin
11-09-2008, 16:07
This was mentioned in a different thread, but I think it deserves its own topic.

Would it be possible for portions of the Hive Mind to manifest themselves in our world as tyranid-daemons? Or could it use the Shadow in the Warp to influence neutral daemons to work for it?

What would these daemons look like, how powerful would they be, etc?

Discuss.

Adra
11-09-2008, 16:27
Huh? What? The Hive Mind is the collective consious of billions of Tyranid organisms. Its not a god in the warp. Sounds like mixing up the two different systems. Chaos gods reside in the warp and can manifest part of themselves in the real world as deamons. The Hive Mind is a real world entity thats massive psychic power influences the warp and essentialy drowns it out, like a fog horn covering over background noise. The Nids cant create deamons, they just dont operate in that way.

So in other words i reject the premise of the thread.

Lord Cook
11-09-2008, 16:34
It was my understanding that daemons are only created by emotions. That's why the four Chaos Gods are so powerful, because they represent very basic, fundamental elements, such as anger, change, decay or desire. Tyranids have no emotions. They don't create daemons in the same way the Astronomican doesn't create daemons, regardless of how psychically powerful it is.

heretics bane
11-09-2008, 16:35
Couldnt happen, IIRC the hive mind is not a major warp entitie so spawning deamon is out of the question.

PondaNagura
11-09-2008, 16:53
yeah the hivemind is more like the internet of the nids, as a rapid communication system.
not to have discussions about games, women, and stream nid memories or anything as pointless and gribbly as that.

DarkMatter2
11-09-2008, 17:54
The Nids ARE the manifestation of the Hive Mind, just like the Hive Mind is a manifestation of the Tyranids.

MvS
11-09-2008, 18:27
@DarkMatter2

Perfectly put.

ryng_sting
11-09-2008, 18:45
To give the Hive Mind daemons is to invalidate everything it stands for. The Chaos Gods and their daemons are nightmares incarnate, but they are nightmares with a purpose. However much they scorn the material world and all its inhabitants, they still pay them the subtle tribute of hatred. As it was pointed out from the start, the Hive Mind doesn't even pay that toll to the universe. If they snack on the entire Imperium, wiping out the human race in the process as they go, none of it matters to them. They feed, they breed, they move on. The Tyranids' lack of higher motivation and feeling it was what gives them their sheer, blank, purposeless horror.

Khaine's Messenger
11-09-2008, 20:34
The intent of the thought exercise is what would occur in locations where the warp and realspace are co-located or superimposed. Places where it's possible to accelerate past c with finite fuel, rooms are bigger or smaller on the inside than the outside, and daemons precipitate out of nothing because someone or something made a rude gesture at the laws of physics.

Would a "manifestation" be daemonic? Doubtful. But the screeching noise of the Hive Mind might be audible to those who normally lack the gift of the transcendent senses. Webs of grim edicts might cling to Tyranids like a portentous cloak of mist. The palpable commands of the Hive Mind alone might be capable of assaulting foes, but it wouldn't be daemonic so much as the might of a vast and impersonal psychic force unfettered by the boundary between dimensions. It wouldn't be as coherent a use of the phenomenon as Chaos makes (or has been forced to make).

Of course, it could be more thematically appropriate for nothing to happen. Tyranids are pretty efficient at creating a large bodycount without help like that. There might be creepy atmospheric vibes, but then the number of people who would be experienced enough to tell the difference between that and the "normal" creepy vibes given off by Nids is vanishingly small, I'd wager.

Firaxin
12-09-2008, 00:26
Thankyou, Khaine's Messenger.

@Lord Cook: I would say the 'nids embody another major feeling: Hunger.
Although that might be under Slaanesh.

If tyranid-daemons are an impossibility then, what about influencing daemons to obey it? Humans can summon and bind daemonhosts to work for them, for example. Could not the brute force of the hivemind make up for the lack of an actual ritual? It exists in the warp, meaning it should be able to interact with warp-living beings easier than your odd inquisitor.

Dictator
12-09-2008, 04:27
Tyranids do not hunger, they survive. They move from world to world to survive, otherwise resources would drain, and they would die. AKA, hunger for necessity, not hunger for pleasure and gluttony(Slaanesh).

Griefbringer
12-09-2008, 09:31
Back in the RT days genestealer cults had the option of going over to chaos worship, which could lead to fielding such things as daemonically possessed genestealer patriarchs. Very unlucky patriarch might end up being possessed by a nurgling...

Lord Cook
12-09-2008, 18:34
@Lord Cook: I would say the 'nids embody another major feeling: Hunger.
Although that might be under Slaanesh.

But they're not created by hunger are they? The Tyranids are a physical, living species, existing within the Material universe. Just because they're associated with devouring things, that doesn't mean the desire of living creatures to feed manifested itself in the creation of the Tyranids. They're real regardless of what other creatures are feeling. The Chaos Gods are the actual manifestation of such aspects as anger or lust within the warp. Slaanesh was only created by the depravity of the Eldar. Without other creatures alive to think and feel, the Chaos Gods would presumably collapse and cease to exist.

Firaxin
12-09-2008, 23:38
But they're not created by hunger are they? The Tyranids are a physical, living species, existing within the Material universe. Just because they're associated with devouring things, that doesn't mean the desire of living creatures to feed manifested itself in the creation of the Tyranids. They're real regardless of what other creatures are feeling. The Chaos Gods are the actual manifestation of such aspects as anger or lust within the warp. Slaanesh was only created by the depravity of the Eldar. Without other creatures alive to think and feel, the Chaos Gods would presumably collapse and cease to exist.

Not sure where you're coming from. I never indicated that the tyranids in the fluff and the codex are manifestations of the hivemind from the warp or daemons in any way at all.

However, the hivemind, in the warp, is *possibly* a gestalt conciousness of every tyranid organism.

Now to my understanding, this is what the chaos gods are. All the gatherings of each god's specific emotion(s) forming one ultra-warp entity.

To me at least, this seems to put the Hive Mind and the big 4 on a similar scale. The big 4 attract daemons to their service, which become dedicated to their respective god, or in some cases manipulate neutral daemons to do their bidding.

I was simply asking, would it be impossible for lesser daemons to be attracted to the hivemind? To become dedicated tyranid-daemons, just as there are bloodletters and plaguebearers? Or failing that, might not the hivemind be able to use its tremendous power to influence neutral daemons to act for it?

Or is this simply impossible, because the center of the hivemind is too far away from the galaxy to attract daemons, or because it absorbs daemons attracted to it rather than sends them forth again?

As you said yourself, the chaos gods would collapse without living creatures to provide them with emotion-fuel, they would collapse. Well, there are trillions of tyranids, who according to Tigurius, only feel hunger.

If the tyranids could use zoats, i don't see why they couldn't do something equivalent in the warp.

ryng_sting
13-09-2008, 16:27
The Big 4 create their own daemons. For rewards they feed them warp energy, for punishment, take it away, destroying them.

The Tyranids have neither souls or emotions, nor the thought to conceptualise these things: Chaos needs all three to survive. To them, the Tyranids are about as useful as a Durex machine in the Vatican.

Johnmclane
14-09-2008, 13:08
Would the nids even fight deamons ? As the tyranids hunger for dna and flesh and the deamons are made out of warp energy and, I guess, can't be processed as food for the hive fleet, will they ever attack deamons ?

Sebavin
13-10-2008, 21:43
THe Outsider is The Hive mind

Luke.13
14-10-2008, 07:13
Im hoping your being sarcastic , cause your totally wrong

Unclejo
14-10-2008, 08:37
Would the nids even fight deamons ? As the tyranids hunger for dna and flesh and the deamons are made out of warp energy and, I guess, can't be processed as food for the hive fleet, will they ever attack deamons ?

Well Tyranids arent particularly pacifist, so if Daemons attacked them, or they consumed a Chaos held world, they would definately fight them. They just wouldn't eat them (Or what they did eat would vanish in the digestive tract...).

Harwammer
14-10-2008, 14:40
Aren't nids and kroot both driven by the desire to assimilate other creatures' genes to compliment their own (thus increasing the survivability of their own genes)?

Is it possible this shared 'drive' these races share could create a shadow in the warp?

Firaxin
14-10-2008, 15:46
No. It is the collective consciousness known as the hive mind that generates the Shadow in the Warp.

The Kroot do not generate a shadow in the warp because they assimilate genes.

Sebavin
14-10-2008, 17:19
Im hoping your being sarcastic , cause your totally wrong

No I am not being sarcastic , what is the Outsider doing in the sphere. I personaly think the C'tan are the most powerful of the the gods, they are not just emotions like the chaos gods.

Sebavin
14-10-2008, 17:42
,But I would say that Nurgle is the Hive mind. If you think about it they are a unstopable plague and represent very thing nurgle represents.

Iracundus
14-10-2008, 17:54
Once again completely and utterly wrong. You are both completely mistaken on both what Nurgle and the Hive Mind are. Nurgle draws strength from despair and the recognition of the inability to resist the ultimate progression of entropy and the ultimate decay of all things. The Hive Mind does not care an iota about ideals of any sort. Its motivations are the simplest and most primal: survive, feed, reproduce. If you are going to participate in background forums, it generally helps to have some basic understanding of the background first. Making things up does not constitute understanding and arbitrarily trying to connect two unrelated entities or races does not make for a "theory"

Once again you are in violation of forum posting guidelines 5) and 13). Do not double post. Use the edit button. Take the time to read your post and touch up the spelling and grammar before actually posting. An incoherent post that others have to strain over only makes it that much less likely anyone will read, care, or reply to whatever content is actually there.

the_raptor
14-10-2008, 18:35
No I am not being sarcastic , what is the Outsider doing in the sphere.

Are you forgetting that is a bit of speculation on the part of characters in the fluff? It might be nothing, it might be the Iron Men in the sphere, the Nids might have detected tastier stuff away from it.


I personaly think the C'tan are the most powerful of the the gods, they are not just emotions like the chaos gods.

The Chaos gods can't destroy each other (they would have if they could have), and you can't shoot a matter ray at them and destroy them either. The C'tan have mostly been killed off by each other, and the warp is antithetical to them.

Sebavin
14-10-2008, 21:56
"Iracundas" if you want to kick me from the site please do it. I simply give my opinion and all you do is quote rules and regs at me. You, can also have some honour and just tell me what you think of me my E-mail is give to you if you click my name.

Luke.13
15-10-2008, 00:55
No I am not being sarcastic , what is the Outsider doing in the sphere. I personaly think the C'tan are the most powerful of the the gods, they are not just emotions like the chaos gods.

this i dont know, its possible maybe the outsider is trying to heal himself after eating so many other ctan which is said to have drove him insane according to 40 lexicanum.

You cant compare the powers of the ctan and the chaos gods. The chaos gods feed on the emotions and gain power though their followers. Not to mention that both the ctan and the chaos gods live on 2 separate planes of existence. The chaos gods live in the warp, where the ctan can never go, and the ctan live on the material plane and the powers of chaos can only directly influence on those planets that are a cross between the material plane and warp-space.



,But I would say that Nurgle is the Hive mind. If you think about it they are a unstopable plague and represent very thing nurgle represents.

im not sure why you brought up the nurgle thing but your reasoning behind it makes little sense and is nothing more then speculation. In no fluff as far as i known has there been a direct connection from chaos gods to the tyranid hivemind. But by using your logic we can safely say that Tzeentch could also be the hivemind cause he is the chaos god of psykers and psychic abilities, and it is proven that the tyranids connect through a psychic link.

Sebavin
15-10-2008, 01:56
they may be a creation of all the Chaos gods, but it's doutful. It's still plausable though.

Luke.13
15-10-2008, 02:06
they may be a creation of all the Chaos gods, but it's doutful. It's still plausable though.

actually that's incorrect, cause to be a formation of any chaos gods they would have to have emotions..Tyranids have no emotions they only survive... Also you couldn't connect Slaneesh to the tyranids cause tyranids don't do anything in excess, they just live, they cant eat for the pleasure of it ,and they don't reproduce in a way that can help Slaneesh. And for them to be under the influence of Khorne they would have to kill for the glory of it and love the bathing in their enemies' blood, however tyranids have no emotion and are indifferent to having to killing people.

there is no plausibility in your claim.

Count Demandred
15-10-2008, 03:19
There is no chance the Hive Mind has anything to do with the Chaos Gods, whatsoever. The simple fact that Tyranids hold no emotions, they simply 'just do,' should be enough of a point to stop such speculation.

For mine, I quite like the theory that the Old Ones created the Tyranids as the 'final solution.'

eldritchstorm
18-10-2008, 16:45
I do think that it could be possible for the hive mind and the outsider to be the same being as it just seems a bit unusual that the necrons and nids have never warred against each other and that one of the hive fleets seemed to avoid and area of space which is supposibly occupied by the dyson sphere so it would make sense for them to avoid each other if they're both controlled by the same being and since the outsider is trapped in the dyson sphere it would explain why the hive mind connects with nids phychically.

Iracundus
18-10-2008, 16:56
Punctuate and structure your posts, as per the forum posting guidelines. One super long run on sentence does not constitute a good post.

Then go read previous posts in the thread as your points have already been disproven.

AdeptusOverton
18-10-2008, 18:23
Ok ive been reading this and now its time for me to add to it.The chaos gods are gods just gods that feed on what they represent.Nurgle for instance Disease and Decay,Khorne Blood and War,Tzeentch Minipulation and Subtifuge (Sorry about spelling my brain is in a terminal nosedive 12 hours over 3 days will do that) and finally Slannesh Pleasure and the extreme spectrum of the human emotional psyche.

Tyranids emminate no emotion they dont think they just do they move as one kill as one then move on and do it again tens,hundreds,thousands,millions of times the Shadow in the warp is a weapon nothing more. To block out astropathic communication and travel any Psyker that sticks his head into the warp prior to or during a Tyranid attack will feel like he is listening to a thousand nails being drawn down a chalk board.

I hope this seperates the nonsense being said from the truth.In short TYRANIDS DONT AND CANT AND NEVER WILL ATTRACT DAEMONS! thank you

spartainubzy
22-10-2008, 22:16
tyranids are controled by the hive mind deamons are controled by their emotions they dont fit

El_Machinae
23-10-2008, 14:23
It's tough cramming fluff into the real world. "Emotions" are cognitive explorations of instinctive urges. Yeah, it's a mouthful, but it's what they are. This is why animals can experience emotions, because many animals have the ability to cognitively understand something, and they all have instincts. The more cognitive power you have, the more emotions you have: especially if you have instincts.

I really think that the 'Nid hive mind has instincts, because it evolved from instinctive creatures. It might not have instincts, though, maybe just individual 'nids have instincts. Tough to say. But it certainly seems to have cognitive abilities.

If the hive mind experiences and understands its instincts, then it has emotions. Whether or not this is something that Chaos can feed on, I don't know. Individual 'smart' 'nids very likely have emotions, so they can probably feed Chaos if those emotions become corrupted in such a way that they benefit one of the Chaos gods.