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The Song of Spears
11-09-2008, 19:38
Woot!! I just want to say that i am SOOO happy with the new SM dex.

So I am starting this thread for only those who want to discuss how they are able to better represent (however they want to justify it) their chaos Legion (traitor chapter)

Here are my IW and how i will be using then from now on:

Pedro Kantor = 175 = Warsmith

master of forge w/conver beam = 120 = oblit (my oblits are made from tech marines + tau stealth suits + termiantors)

Ironclad Dread w/ asslnch = 195 = stat deamon prince ( made this guy out of a IG Sentinel and some inquisitor bits, he looks very techy)
+ drop pod w/ loc bcn

Termis x5 w/1x hv flm = 205 = IW Termis

tactical squad x8 marines = 214 = iron warriors
+searg w/ fist
+Rhino

tactical squad x10 marines = 180 = iron warriors
w/ 1x las

9 assault marines = 225 = raptors
+serg w/ fist

thunderfire gun = 100 = tech marine using the thudd gun model

Whirlwind = 85 = basilisk
_________
1499

So what legion will you want to use the new SM dex with and with what models representing what?

Shibboleth
11-09-2008, 20:07
I like this, especially your Daemon Prince idea.

I guess it's the Daemon light Legions, like the Iron Warriors, that will really suit the SM codex.

Capone
11-09-2008, 20:16
Some really good ides there. I demand a picture of you DP, the idea sounds too good not to have one!

The Song of Spears
11-09-2008, 20:17
Exactly. The Traitor Legions that swore no allegiance to any chaos god.

Night Lords work quite well, especially with Shrike.

Word bearers can use the Chaplain as their Dark Apostle and the Librarian as their Sorcerer, they can also use scouts as their 'cultists' since their stats are all below marines now and they still count as troops.

Iron warriors can now fortify locations and take siege equipment

Alpha Legion can really mess with marines as in their fluff they often masquerade as imperial loyalists.

All of these legions still raid and loot the imperium, as well as all of them being still mostly in tact (minus losses, plus new recruits) unlike khorne or nurgle warbands.

EDIT: you can see some of my pics i am trying to get online by checking the drop down on my name on the left there, the prince is here but not in his finished form.

http://warseer.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=588&ppuser=8151

Latro_
11-09-2008, 21:11
does sound liek a fair few proxies to get ye head around in a game. but meh go for it.

SockMonkey
11-09-2008, 21:28
dont get any weapon upgrades unless its 10 man sqd.

The Song of Spears
11-09-2008, 21:35
Well the proxies are all marines so there is not much of a stretch there. The big ones are the prince, the basi and possibly (not sure yet if i want to do it) the oblit.

And yeah, you are right i forgot,i loose the flamer in the 9 man tac squad. Thats what i get for trying to stick the tac squad and cantor in the rhino... man i wish those things were able to hold just one more model :P

VariableBob
11-09-2008, 21:41
Why not take a Razorback and combat squad them?

Slaaneshi Slave
11-09-2008, 21:45
I thought the whole problem Chaos players had with the Chaos Codex is that they don't like Counts As. This list is no closer to a Iron Warriors list than one made from the Chaos book (i.e. can make a perfectly good one from either). You just want shiney new rules. <----Poor comment removed. WarSeer Inquisition---->

The Song of Spears
11-09-2008, 21:59
Why not take a Razorback and combat squad them?

Well, i have used the 16 points from the removal of the marine to get the rhino, so i would have to not only pay the 16 points to get the marine back, but also the extra 5 points for the razorback.

I dunno if i can squeeze this list any more :P

VariableBob
11-09-2008, 22:12
Well, i have used the 16 points from the removal of the marine to get the rhino, so i would have to not only pay the 16 points to get the marine back, but also the extra 5 points for the razorback.

I dunno if i can squeeze this list any more :P
If you drop the fist you can easily afford to get the razorback though. And it is a mobile HB. Then have one squad hang back to go for objectives/shoot their free missile launcher and use Pedro for the fist.

Fantastica
11-09-2008, 22:16
i think the biggest shock on the new chaos 'dex was going from having a universe of unit and HQ config options (some fluffy, some horridly abuseable) to having less choices than
our loyalist compatriots who are restricted by codex astartes.

that being said, one can still build a Iron Warriors list that's prettyt similar to the old one,
the Basalisk and Servo arms are all that you can't do unit wise.

well that and seige specialists.. but really, I can't remember a game where I said
"man, I really wish I took Seige Specialists"

Seth the Dark
11-09-2008, 22:17
Well if you are going to use the new SM codex for Chaos Marines (shudder) then you wouldn't have things like Razorbacks and such that were created post-Heresy.

The Song of Spears
11-09-2008, 22:17
Thats not a bad idea :) But to be honest this isnt really to detail out this particular list (though i do thank you all for the ideas, I will have to post this in the army lists section as well)

I am hoping to see if there are others who have similar ideas.

The Song of Spears
11-09-2008, 22:23
i think the biggest shock on the new chaos 'dex was going from having a universe of unit and HQ config options (some fluffy, some horridly abuseable) to having less choices than
our loyalist compatriots who are restricted by codex astartes.

that being said, one can still build a Iron Warriors list that's prettyt similar to the old one,
the Basalisk and Servo arms are all that you can't do unit wise.

well that and seige specialists.. but really, I can't remember a game where I said
"man, I really wish I took Seige Specialists"

Well now you do! With the new Sm rule of tech marines being able to fortify locations, you now actually have a BETTER represented IW list than before due to the actions you can perform in game to match those in the fluff.


Well if you are going to use the new SM codex for Chaos Marines (shudder) then you wouldn't have things like Razorbacks and such that were created post-Heresy.

I don't ever recall saying this was a pre-heresy list...

As the fluff clearly states many traitor legions still raid and steal from the imperium to this day. And unlike the world eaters or emperors children, the IW never varied from imperial combat doctrine other than to fire uppon their own men in the heresy. Hell their primarch still leads his legion.

With night lord and alpha legion who both still work against the imperium, they too steal supplies / equipment from the imperium.

Really guys, this is not any more odd than using the SM dex to make the salamanders or space wolves.

Freakiq
11-09-2008, 22:33
I thought the whole problem Chaos players had with the Chaos Codex is that they don't like Counts As. This list is no closer to a Iron Warriors list than one made from the Chaos book (i.e. can make a perfectly good one from either). You just want shiney new rules. Chaos players really are the biggest bunch of hypocrits around.

You have said this before, no reason to constantly remind people of your opinion as it could be interpreted as flamebaiting.

If you don't have anything constructive to say you can just stay out if this thread annoys you so much.




I like the list Song of Spears ( not Britney i hope ;) ), I have been thinking of building a Steel Brethren army using the new Marine codex and new Drop Pods.

The fluff for the Steel Brethren say they utilize drop pods frequently so the marine codex fits the bill perfectly. Since they seem to be similar in style to Iron Warriors they wouldn't have Daemons, possessed and I dislike Obliterators so the Marine list fits way better than the Chaos one.


I will still use the Chaos list for my World Eaters and Night Lords though.

The Song of Spears
11-09-2008, 22:43
You have said this before, no reason to constantly remind people of your opinion as it could be interpreted as flamebaiting.

If you don't have anything constructive to say you can just stay out if this thread annoys you so much.

He has been reported.




I like the list Song of Spears ( not Britney i hope ;) ),

E-gads no! It's from the "Music of the Spears" an graphic novel of the Aliens setting noting my start in 40k with the Nids. :)



I have been thinking of building a Steel Brethren army using the new Marine codex and new Drop Pods.

The fluff for the Steel Brethren say they utilize drop pods frequently so the marine codex fits the bill perfectly. Since they seem to be similar in style to Iron Warriors they wouldn't have Daemons, possessed and I dislike Obliterators so the Marine list fits way better than the Chaos one.


As it is indeed rules that make a game (no rules no game) its understandable to have a concept of a legion or to take a canon legion and try to use the rules that represent them best on the table.

Seeing as the chaos book has no drop pods, ability to fortify locations or take much in the way of siege craft or fast attack options (why does chaos STILL have no answer to the highly successful land speeder?)

So with that said i like your idea of the drop pod chaos. Aggressive drop pod and teleport usage are a hallmark of many chaos armies in fact.




I will still use the Chaos list for my World Eaters and Night Lords though.

I think this indeed makes sense. Not that you can make much of a world eaters force with the chaos dex because if your terminators loose their mark holder (even now easier in 5th ed) they instantly forget their dedicated to khorne. :wtf: Never mind little things that are as big a part of the 40k universe as marines = cultists and the LatD. But yes, you can still make khorne berzerkos (honour guard squad essentially), or plague marines (command squad essentially) and so on in the current chaos dex.

Victomorga
11-09-2008, 22:50
all this sounds good; as long as counts-as is clear, there's no reason not to go for it if you feel it's a better fit. and this will allow more closet servants of the emperor to engage in some codex-cross dressing (we're all SM on the inside).

...and tons of crap is looted from loyalists. otherwise all CSM would be wearing retro armor. although they seem to have trouble getting their hands on storm bolters and ass cans for some reason....

Gutted
11-09-2008, 22:51
I'm a bit confused by the use of Pedro. Wouldn't you just be better off using a Master of the Forge instead for a Warsmith? It would be a more intuitve proxy and the rules would synergise better as well.

The Song of Spears
11-09-2008, 22:58
Well, thats where canon and ideas kinda got mixed up.

IW are not Iron Hands. They are not a tech marine army, nor is the Warsmith a techmarine. He is a warsmith, versed in the ways of siege battle with the added ability to do tech marine chores since they lost the support of the adeptus mechanicus.

So, with that said, the old Warsmith model came with a power claw and the option for a kai gun(described as a oversized bolter). Pedro has the special bolter, a power fist and makes stern guard scoring with 'hold the line' which is what the IW do when sieging a fortification, as well as making the troops Stubborn, which is most certainly what IW are. :D

chromedog
12-09-2008, 00:26
@The song of spears:

The Aliens reference you took your name from is:
"The music of the SPHERES", not "... spears" - I have the comic in my collection, and it's actually a rather famous piece of music as well.

btw: I also agree with Slaaneshi slave re: you chaos players wanting everything that the emperor's glory boys want. If you wanted all of the nice SM stuff, play loyalists and dump the spikey skulls brigade. You posted it because you wanted feedback - you have to take the good with the bad, otherwise it just comes across as "poor me, whine-whine-whine.".

The Song of Spears
12-09-2008, 00:46
@The song of spears:

The Aliens reference you took your name from is:
"The music of the SPHERES", not "... spears" - I have the comic in my collection, and it's actually a rather famous piece of music as well.

btw: I also agree with Slaaneshi slave re: you chaos players wanting everything that the emperor's glory boys want. If you wanted all of the nice SM stuff, play loyalists and dump the spikey skulls brigade. You posted it because you wanted feedback - you have to take the good with the bad, otherwise it just comes across as "poor me, whine-whine-whine.".

Not only do you post incorrect information (aliens link (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51X2HJ0AR9L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)), you are a troll as well. Sod off, its just a game of toy soldiers anyway.

Vedar
12-09-2008, 00:50
This is an interesting idea. When my friends buy the book I'll have to see if I like it.

Madfool2
12-09-2008, 00:51
Not only do you post incorrect information (aliens link (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51X2HJ0AR9L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)), you are a troll as well. Sod off, its just a game of toy soldiers anyway.

:rolleyes:

So let him have an opinion.

pityedbythedicegods
12-09-2008, 01:02
To the OP cool idea but I have seen it alot and it always ends up in a flame war and it looks like people are lighting the matches.Eather way cool idea evan though I've heard it around 10 times.

Gensuke626
12-09-2008, 01:03
In SoS's defence, I don't recall seeing him whine over the new Chaos dex when it was out. Maybe he did and I missed it, but SoS doesn't stand out to me as one of those "Chaos Suxorz Nao!" posters.

That being said, I'm being tempted into playing Marines via the Alpha Legion. Not the New "We're fighting for Chaos to Save the Imperium! We're the Secret heroes of the Imperium!" BS, but the original "Me and my legion of Ultimate Badasses, are going to kick the snot out of all of you loyalist blokes." idea.

Right now I'm trying to wrap my head around using a combination of Drop Pods, Scout Bikes and a Land Raider Crusader to simulate Alpharius' "Attack from as many directions as possible" strategy.

cailus
12-09-2008, 01:27
Song of Spears, I think the list works and I would have no issues playing against it.



btw: I also agree with Slaaneshi slave re: you chaos players wanting everything that the emperor's glory boys want. If you wanted all of the nice SM stuff, play loyalists and dump the spikey skulls brigade. You posted it because you wanted feedback - you have to take the good with the bad, otherwise it just comes across as "poor me, whine-whine-whine.".

I think Song of Spears just made an army that's more reflective of the background. The army he has featured reflects Iron Warrior background a lot better than what is possible in the Chaos army.

In fact the Thunderfire cannon makes more sense in a siege orientated Iron Warriors army than it does in a Space Marine army. The Iron Warriors warsmith model is closer to a techmarine with a servo-arm than it is to anything available by the Chaos list.

I take it by the same token you have the same issues with the following armies:

1. Armoured Krumpany - Ork army using IG Armoured Company list
2. Deffwing - Orky army utilising Deathwing rules to create a Meganob orientated army.
3. Lost and the Damned - using Imperial Guard list
4. Imperial Fist teleport armies using Deathwing rules
5. Lost and the Damned army - utilising Witchhunter/Daemonhunter lists.
6. Genestealer Cult - using Ork list or Imperial Guard list.

Lungboy
12-09-2008, 01:51
6. Genestealer Cult - using Ork list or Imperial Guard list.

The Cult is a bit different as there is no currently legal codex to field it from, whereas there is a CSM book and he is choosing to use the SM book instead. That said, i see absolutely no problem with doing it, as long as any opponent knows exactly what all of the proxies are. Why do some people get so unbelievably irate about this issue? I've seen it alot with DA/BA players and now with Chaos people. It makes no sense to me.

Victomorga
12-09-2008, 02:43
i see absolutely no problem with doing it, as long as any opponent knows exactly what all of the proxies are. Why do some people get so unbelievably irate about this issue? I've seen it alot with DA/BA players and now with Chaos people. It makes no sense to me.

agreed. I have the last SM 'dex, the DA 'dex, and the CSM 'dex, and I don't see any reason I couldn't or shouldn't use any of the three (or the BA 'dex for that matter) with my DA army if I want to.

what, I should buy and paint the same force four times over just so I can experiment with some rule variations? what a load of crap.

that being said, I think the Sergeant Chronus model would work really well in a IW force. he's got a servo-arm, a heavy, pre-heresy-style helmet, and the pointing finger arm can easily be hacked off and converted.

also, you should throw a vindicator in there for good measure. nothing says "siege" like a vindicator with a 'dozer blade.

Seth the Dark
12-09-2008, 02:43
Well Lost and the Damned and Genestealer Cult have no legal army lists any more so they have to find an alternative but using the new SM codex for a Chaos Marine army is a little weak.

Gensuke626
12-09-2008, 02:50
but using the new SM codex for a Chaos Marine army is a little weak.

Why?

I think it's a great idea, especially considering that, as SoS has said, elements of the new SM codex captures the feel of certain Legions better than others.

Alpha Legion Deep Infiltration Teams, Iron Warriors, Recently Turned Renegades, and a few other ideas strike me as being worthy candidates of using the New Marines codex.

loveless
12-09-2008, 03:07
As long as you let me know what Codex you're using, I don't really care. Oh, and make sure that there aren't any too outlandish instances of Counts-As. (Oh yeah, this Daemon Prince is Telion :p)

Be as creative as you like: it's just a ruleset, and it can be applied to whatever you like. Tournaments are probably a different story. You'd have to make it far more clear that you were using a Marine list with Chaos Marine models.

That being said, I think the new Imperial Marine Codex will better serve Alpha Legion, and possibly Night Lords. Iron Warriors could really go either way, depending on how you precisely want them portrayed.

Black Legion, Word Bearers, World Eaters, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, Emperor's Children are all still best used with Codex: Chaos Space Marines.
Black Legion is obvious (Codex: CSM is pretty much Codex: Black Legion and Red Corsairs).
Word Bearers need their daemons.
World Eaters need the Beserkers and the extra close-combat ability that Codex: CSM provides.
Death Guard, Plague Marines with their added Toughness are a boon here.
Thousand Sons need their Rubrics...I suppose you could sub in LotD and claim that the Sorcerors are teleporting them in, but that one would feel lame.
Emperor's Children. Noise Marines should be included, ergo, Codex: CSM. You could potentially claim Sternguard as Noise Marines, with the alternate ammo being differing frequencies. However, that one doesn't feel right either.

EmperorEternalXIX
12-09-2008, 03:15
I could see this being fluffy from another vantage point -- Chronus, the "BS5 Tank Dude", has a Servo Arm that I didn't notice on the model. A BS5 Tank would go well with the Iron Warriors, no?

Gensuke626
12-09-2008, 03:23
After giving it much thought...Though for some reason my gut tells me that Night Lords are better with CSM, Logically SM works better since a Combination of Vanguard Veterans and Assault Marines led by Shrike and the rest of the army under Khan (Or just a Bike Captain depending how you want to swing it) would be able to emulate the sort of Lighting Terror Strikes that the Night Lords are reknowned for.

That and you could use scouts as "Terror Agents" and the Storm Speeder as a weird sort of Terror Vehicle, sowing disruption in the enemy ranks.

And those cluster mines would be great to set the idea of fear into the opponent's mind if he isn't careful...

...
...
...
BLAST! >_<

I hate you Loveless...I think I need to go reboot my Night Lords army now...

cailus
12-09-2008, 03:57
Well Lost and the Damned and Genestealer Cult have no legal army lists any more so they have to find an alternative but using the new SM codex for a Chaos Marine army is a little weak.

So using Armoured Company or Deathwing rules for an Ork army is a bit weak too?

I don't mind count as if it's done on a consistent basis. What peeves me off is mindless proxying for advantage - e.g. meltaguns counting as Plasma Guns when fighting Necrons.

A Nightlords army with really nasty Vanguard squads led by Shrike is a lot more fluffier than usinng the Chaos equivalent (Lord with Flight and Raptors who are just Assault Marines).

Iron Warriors make sense with borderline static artillery pieces, multiple launch rocket systems, techmarines who are able to fortify items, stubborn veterans (Sternguard) or nasty Vanguard (represent Berzerkers) than the Chaos equivalent (Defilers and Berzerkers).

Alpha Legion makes more sense with units such as Scouts to represent cultists or the new non-Marine agents introduced in the book Legion.

Word Bearers of course make more sense with access to Chaplain.

Red Corsairs who are not led by Huron Blackheart also make more sense because you can field Landspeeders, Assault Cannons, Stormbolters and other more modern military equipment (the Corsairs after all only rebelled in the 41st millenium).

In fact most renegades would be better represented by the Marine codex.

Takitron
12-09-2008, 04:00
from what Im seeing in my codex, you cant have 9 man squads. its either 5 or 10.

Deadboytat2
12-09-2008, 04:06
I think the idea is fine and i also have not understood people's problem with counts as army's. The only problem i have with it is if they are doing a counts as army and its not modeled well. But from the pics you have up it is all modeled vary nicely indeed. As for one of the comments you made about how using the SM dex for a iron warriors army is no different then someone using it to make a salamanders army. Although i get what you are trying to say i think its a bad example as the Salamanders are one of the major army's listed in the new dex and have always been made from the core SM book.

In fact looking it over the salamanders get more fluff and time then the imperial fists do and that is a rarity because i have had to scrape together all the fluff i have from them and now this bright new codex comes along and gives me a hole bunch more. But im jumping off topic.

To sum up i guess im trying to say that for as long as i have been playing people have been using the core space marine book to represent a vary long list of chapters and army's, there is a hello kitty space marine army; are you really going to give someone crap about iron warriors when there is a girl out there that glued pick fur to a land raider? talk about counts as lol.


from what Im seeing in my codex, you cant have 9 man squads. its either 5 or 10.

you can take nine or even 6 man squads. what the new codex has set up is you have to spend 90 points to buy the first five marines and then each one past that costs 16 points and you can only take special weapons if you have at least 10 in the squad. O and the sarge comes in the first 5 marines he can be upgraded no matter what the squad size is.

Gensuke626
12-09-2008, 04:08
from what Im seeing in my codex, you cant have 9 man squads. its either 5 or 10.

Preview copy at FLGS says that you start with 4 marines and a Sarge. You can buy up to 5 more marines and gives a cost per model.

But you can't get special or Heavy weapons untill you have 10 models.

Takitron
12-09-2008, 04:12
Preview copy at FLGS says that you start with 4 marines and a Sarge. You can buy up to 5 more marines and gives a cost per model.

But you can't get special or Heavy weapons untill you have 10 models.

well yes, I was assuming that a space marine sarge was actually a "marine" when you are picking your squad.

I was refering to


tactical squad x8 marines = 214 = iron warriors
+searg w/ fist
+Rhino

er...

scratch that, I cant read. GO ME!

loveless
12-09-2008, 04:18
I hate you Loveless...

Aaaaand sigged.

I had forgotten there was no sensible way to obtain a 4+ Inv. Save in Codex: CSM outside of the Mark of Tzeentch, so maybe the Marine Codex would be better...wait, no, no it's not. Mark of Tzeentch as Counts-as Rosarius, Power Weapon as Counts-As Crozius, extra kit as needed. Bam, Dark Apostle in Codex: CSM with barely any work. Word Bearers, in my opinion, need to have a good load of daemons to look right. You can't get a decent analog for daemons in Codex: Space Marines.

Gatsby
12-09-2008, 09:33
As long as you tell me what codex your using and everything carrying identifiable gear i don't care if your playing the Easter Bunny's Army O' Doom.

Like the idea of using the most customizable codex for armies other than those its meant for, was thinking of making a SWAT team based list using their codex, combat squads SCREAMS swat teams.

plus i like anything that pisses off the smurf players:chrome:

TheOverlord
12-09-2008, 10:25
Sounds awesome, can't wait to see it :D

AdmiralDick
12-09-2008, 14:58
frankly i love the idea. anything to breath a little more life and variety into supposedly chaotic armies is a good thing in my book. i came up with a similar concept here (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160311) but the thread almost instantly got bogged down with trolling.

you've taken the army in a slightly different direction to me, but already knowing your own ideas about IW they all make sense. i think it could be a pretty awesome army when its made. still not sure if i will put mine into production yet (my Slaaneshi army has died a death since last year).


I thought the whole problem Chaos players had with the Chaos Codex is that they don't like Counts As.

lol.


You can't get a decent analog for daemons in Codex: Space Marines.

its not easy, but if you are willing to expand your horizons a little it is far from impossible. there are a number of units that are found in C: SM and not in C: CSM and any one of them could be modelled to represent an unorthodox daemon type. the daemons of the big four are not the only ones out there, and undivided legions would more likely get allies from undivided daemons, where the benefit is mutual.

scout snipers could be daemonic marksmen, with archaic arquebus, or Legion of the Damned could be hideous armoured phantoms.


As long as you tell me what codex your using and everything carrying identifiable gear i don't care if your playing the Easter Bunny's Army O' Doom.

this should be the gamers motto.

Gatsby, i salute you.

Slaaneshi Slave
12-09-2008, 15:02
Anything can be called a Daemon, but it easier to admit you are clutching at straws.

EVIL INC
12-09-2008, 15:42
Sounds good. As everyone has particuler views and personal images of the different chapters/legions, there is nothing wrong with using marine lists to represent legion armies just as there is nothing wrong with using legion lists to represent chapters.
So long as everything is reasonably wysiwyg and your opponant knows "whats up" before the game starts, there should be no problems.

Brother Loki
12-09-2008, 15:45
Vanguard veterans' Heroic Intervention rule means they work almost exactly like summoned daemons. Just don't shoot with them.

Ubermensch Commander
12-09-2008, 16:00
*sighs* Whatever. you proxyied a single Obliterator...when the Chaos codex has obliterators. Why do you need assault marines to count as raptors when there are raptors in the chaos codex.
A Whirlwind does not = a Basilisk and a Defiler is not only more Iron Warriros/Chaosy it
also has a cannon that is a closer approximation to a Basilisk as it is a proper bit of siege equipment.
Since you acknowledged on the first page that the IW are not a techmarine army why the techmarine? Another piece of small artillery? Again....Defilers. Bigger Boom. More Siege like.

So really, this "Iron Warriors live again" statement sounds strange to me as just about everything in your list can be created using the Chaos Codex. What was proxied(oblits/raptors/ Daemon Prince) are actually IN the Chaos book.

I am glad you are having fun playing Space Marines though.

SockMonkey
12-09-2008, 16:02
If you want to play Marines play Marines. I think its a huge cop out when people say "I think this represents my army better" Play with your codex!

Ubermensch Commander
12-09-2008, 16:12
If you want to play Marines play Marines. I think its a huge cop out when people say "I think this represents my army better" Play with your codex!

Especially if one is proxying units that EXIST in the current codex.

Shibboleth
12-09-2008, 16:23
Especially if one is proxying units that EXIST in the current codex.The idea is wanting to have those new abilities, like being able to fortify terrain, using Stubborn Sternguard, etc. which are fluffy for IW but not in the CSM codex.
So, once you've made the shift from CSM to SM for those abilities you do have to start poxying all those other 'already existing' units...

Ubermensch Commander
12-09-2008, 17:00
The idea is wanting to have those new abilities, like being able to fortify terrain, using Stubborn Sternguard, etc. which are fluffy for IW but not in the CSM codex.
So, once you've made the shift from CSM to SM for those abilities you do have to start poxying all those other 'already existing' units...

Ah but there we have the crux of the matter: THOSE abilities....the shiny new toys of the space marines that Chaos wants.

Ok, lets assume fortifying something in the SM book is fluffy for IW. Ok. This does not mean that the Loyalist codex is MORE Iron Warriors than the Chaos codex or that the IW could not be represented USING the Chaos Codex, which the statement of "they live again" seems to infer.

-Stubborn...Chaos Glory Icon that boosts morale? Although I recall the IW being paranoid and motivated by self interest and that it is the Imperial Fists who are the stubborn ones. I am not certain if ATSKNF is being retained in the new codex or not, but I feel that ATSKNF would be very unfluffy for IW.

The base IW unit is the Chaos Space Marine. Now there is little difference 'tween them...but it is still Chaos Marines in the Chaos codex, not Loyalists. So the Chaos Codex works fine.
Raptors as Assualt Mairines-Again little difference, especially when not using the Icons. But if they are similar....why not use the CHAOS one?
Terminators-See above. They are in the Chaos Codex.

Siege Dread as Daemon Prince- just use a Daemon Prince. Siege Dreads could be fairly Iron Warriors, but if using them as a DP....DP's are in the Chaos Codex. Besides, The Chaos Codex has Dreads as well. I am not arguing their worth I am simply pointing out that there they are.

Whirlwind as proxy for Basilisk-No. Sorry. Does not hold up when Defilers which are Daemon Engines designed to breach defenses does a much better job. So we have IW(siege minded) stuff in the Chaos Codex.
Then there is the proxying of Obliterators when Oblits are in the Chaos Codex.

So we have a situation of "oh this 1-3 things could be applied to IW...it makes an IW list!" when you can make an IW list from their own codex.

To say "they live again" when you can "just use the damn Chaos book because it does a better job of it especially with less Counts as" is irksome. Especially after THREAD UPON THREAD of "New Chaos Codex sucks, I don't want to proxy or counts as!". Not saying OP was one of those people...I am saying that it makes it annoying to use the SM codex when you can use the CSM codex for it, and it does it better.

Again, I am glad someone is having fun playing 40K Space Marines....but admit they are Space Marines and please do not say "Whew! Now i can finally make an IW(or othe Legion list)" as if the Chaos codex cannot do it. It can. Very well. Better than the Loyalist one. The Loyalist one just has shiny new toys which draw the eye.

Captain Brown
12-09-2008, 17:22
Please keep the rhetoric down gentlemen and the discussion civil. Members are entitled to their opinions and there is more than one poster here belittling the argument of the other.

Now several of you have reported posts as unconstructive, trolling, etc. when really they are just an opinion, albeit a little abrupt and perhaps poor in tone. I have removed one comment in one post and that is all I think should be necessary.

Please respect opinions different from your own.

Captain Brown
WarSeer Inquisition

Ubermensch Commander
12-09-2008, 17:40
Ok Positives.
Kantor's bolter as Kai is something that never would have occured to me. Pretty cool.
Dread DP. sounds like a cool conversion.

The Song of Spears
12-09-2008, 18:14
Hmm, you guys seem to really think the defiler is a siege engine. The fact that it lost IF and has CC ability makes it kinda odd for simply a siege engine. It can do that, but its not really a "sit back and rain death on the enemy over the fortress walls tank" But if your only issue is the basi as a whirlwind then know that i am only really doing it because the old IW allowed basi's and i have a nicely converted and painted one that i want to put in the table to use. But a basi a a LOT further from a defiler than a whirlwind. And i already have a chaos vindicator for the IW so proxying that with the basi is... well... useless.

If all you have to worry about is "if i can tell what is poxied as what" then i think we can put that one to bed. Lets just assume for a second that almost all the army is using the same models as the regular SM use, so aside from the basi and the prince and conversion beamer, there is really no differences. Iron Warriors are space marines, the Warsmith is a space marine, the thudd gun and tech marine will be a thudd gun and tech marine, the vindicator a vindicator, raptors are assault marines with streamlined armour and jump packs.

Its not like i am trying to suggest using Tyranid models here people. :P

But if you are thinking that the CSM codex is better for the IW than the SM one then lets take a look...

IW personify Siege specialists, entrenchments, and are stubborn fighters as all described in Storm of Iron and the Index Astartes. They are not paranoid, i am not sure where anyone gets that from. They (Pertrubio the Primarch) is in a pissing contest with the Iron Fists over who is better at sieging/building fortresses as well as being pissed at the emperor for overworking them (not knowing that it was Horus' orders the whole time)

So with that said we need Siege engines, ways to fortify locations, ways to not run away when the fight gets really tough, organized tactics in battle (no mention was ever made of IW breaking from canon Imperil combat doctrine)

Ok, so we get for the Chaos Codex:
Siege engine = defiler (minus indirect fire), vindicator
fortifications = none
ways to not run away = mark of chaos glory
organized tactics = none

Marines codex:
Siege craft = whirlwind (with IF), vindicator
Fortifications = tech marines
Ways to not run away = ATSKNF (yes this makes sense, they live the WORST place in the galaxy, the EoT, which would make any survivors fearless)
organized tactics = combat squads, chapter tactics

So we are +2 for the SM dex. Now lets look at lesser things that can personify a IW army...

Leader who give command bonus to men, veterans who have be doing siege warfare for millennia, specialty weapons used to break down fortifications or mine areas (as per fluff attack on Terra and the planet fortress Petrubio set up to mess with the Iron Fists)

CSM codex:
leader giving bonus to men = none
veterans with siege ability = chosen (no seige or veteran skills besides melta equipment and infiltration though)
Specialty weapons = obliterators (but no mines available)

SM codex:
leader giving bonus to men = captains
Veterans with siege ability = sternguard or even a command squad with a apothecary to keep IW in the trenches alive), options for veteran skills via HQ characters.
Specialty weapons = mines via scouts, conversion beamer, thunder fire gun, multi typ shot from whirlwind, wider variety of landraiders.

Again, there is just more for the fluff ideas in the SM dex than for chaos. I never said you CANT do IW with the chaos dex. But it ends up being just as proxied as in the SM dex oddly enough.

Anyway, I didn't mean to let this devolve into a "is this counts as really worthy" thread. As per GW allowances i can use any codex with any models as long as each wargear item is uniquely represented. There is no such thing as fluff armies because even in 40k fluff never came from the choice of list options, it came from the missions and scenarios. You can use nids models and marine rules and no tourney can turn you away as long as you meet the WYSIWYG criteria. But should you try to re-enact the siege on holy terra, they you have to pick certain units and armys to properly re-create the scene.

So for fun, to flavour up the game, to get more use out of the models we have for any number of reasons, what chaos legion would you think could be well represented by the new Space Marines codex?

==Me==
12-09-2008, 18:29
It sounds like a nifty idea, I've been thinking of something similar for Alpha Legion.

But I think the problem people are having with it is caused by the Chaos whining. I find it amusing that when counts-as was originally suggested as a way to represent various legions, it was shot down and paraded as stupid by the whiners. And yet now, when new shiny toys are coming out, counts-as is immediately embraced as totally acceptable.

The Song of Spears
12-09-2008, 19:59
It sounds like a nifty idea, I've been thinking of something similar for Alpha Legion.

But I think the problem people are having with it is caused by the Chaos whining. I find it amusing that when counts-as was originally suggested as a way to represent various legions, it was shot down and paraded as stupid by the whiners. And yet now, when new shiny toys are coming out, counts-as is immediately embraced as totally acceptable.

I am not sure what you mean by counts-as.

If you are simply talking about people being mad that they had to use their berzerker termis as chaos termis with the mark of khorne, then yeah i think it was a bit odd of a complaint.

But if you are talking about how when the guy with the mark dies and the termis no longer counts a khorne, or if you are talking about the IW loss of the basi, or if you are talking about the loss of cult daemons and their far greater uniqueness than the generic lesser daemons, or if you are talking about the loss of LatD (even if it was a expansion list) or if you are talking about the loss of cult havocs and termis, or the loss of any sort of indirect firing unit, the lacking of psychic powers in the most psychic power using army in the galaxy.

And having to stuff all those rules/models into generic look-alike's then i think the chaos players have a fair bone to pick with the new SM dex.

It was said that the chaos dex was simplified due to that being how the game was going, less special rules, more emphasis on gameplay and not rules.

But the Ork and SM codex blew that out of the water, with both having nearly a unique special rule on every other page. I don't think chaos players (me at least) hate the chaos dex. Its just not enough. It needs more options to fully flesh out the variety that is inherent in chaos. And just like the new SM dex, that means more special rules.

But that isnt going to happen, so instead of whining i am simply using the SM codex, and suggesting to others, to use it as a expansion of list ideas for their chaos. And if the SM player wants to, they can use the chaos dex to represent some odd chapter. I don't even see where the contention is. I could call my IW the "Iron Dogs" and claim they are a custom chapter (as outlined in the new SM dex) and use the exact same models i have here and for some reason I think people would freak out less :wtf:

So i heard Alpha legion, i hear Night Lords, what list choices do you think would make up a NL or AL army well. Lets see a few 1500 pnt AL or NL lists and see how we can make them better than the CSM dex (and if it cant be done reasonably, then so be it)

Ubermensch Commander
12-09-2008, 21:25
Hmm, you guys seem to really think the defiler is a siege engine. The fact that it lost IF and has CC ability makes it kinda odd for simply a siege engine. It can do that, but its not really a "sit back and rain death on the enemy over the fortress walls tank" But if your only issue is the basi as a whirlwind then know that i am only really doing it because the old IW allowed basi's and i have a nicely converted and painted one that i want to put in the table to use. But a basi a a LOT further from a defiler than a whirlwind. And i already have a chaos vindicator for the IW so proxying that with the basi is... well... useless.

I am afraid that rationale is a little off, good sir.
Fluff wise-The Defiler is designed to break fortifications. I believe one of the Apocalypse sheets describes them clamboring up and over defenses. That makes it VERY MUCH a siege engine. It makes holes, and then opens up the breach.
The Whirlwind is an artillery piece yes, but it is not a Basilisk clone for all that. Its strength is too low.
The cannon on a Defiler is a lot stronger and closer to basilisk stats.
Now just using a whirlwind because you used to have a basilisk and you want to field one....why not snip the barrel and call it a vindi? Make it look like the old Griffor mortar tank. Either way, if you just miss the 3.5 basilisk that much...*shrug* ok. But NO, the whirlwind does not approximate to a basilisk.


[/QUOTE]If all you have to worry about is "if i can tell what is poxied as what" then i think we can put that one to bed. Lets just assume for a second that almost all the army is using the same models as the regular SM use, so aside from the basi and the prince and conversion beamer, there is really no differences. Iron Warriors are space marines, the Warsmith is a space marine, the thudd gun and tech marine will be a thudd gun and tech marine, the vindicator a vindicator, raptors are assault marines with streamlined armour and jump packs.

Its not like i am trying to suggest using Tyranid models here people. :P[/QUOTE]

Yep. You can do the models pretty easy. That is the glory of proxying.


[/QUOTE]But if you are thinking that the CSM codex is better for the IW than the SM one then lets take a look...

IW personify Siege specialists, entrenchments, and are stubborn fighters as all described in Storm of Iron and the Index Astartes. They are not paranoid, i am not sure where anyone gets that from. They (Pertrubio the Primarch) is in a pissing contest with the Iron Fists over who is better at sieging/building fortresses as well as being pissed at the emperor for overworking them (not knowing that it was Horus' orders the whole time)

So with that said we need Siege engines, ways to fortify locations, ways to not run away when the fight gets really tough, organized tactics in battle (no mention was ever made of IW breaking from canon Imperil combat doctrine)

Ok, so we get for the Chaos Codex:
Siege engine = defiler (minus indirect fire), vindicator
fortifications = none
ways to not run away = mark of chaos glory
organized tactics = none

Marines codex:
Siege craft = whirlwind (with IF), vindicator
Fortifications = tech marines
Ways to not run away = ATSKNF (yes this makes sense, they live the WORST place in the galaxy, the EoT, which would make any survivors fearless)
organized tactics = combat squads, chapter tactics[/QUOTE]

Actually if you read the IW IA it states that they are paranoid selfish gits. And they do in fact run away from time to time. So ATSKNF is not a good mechanic for them at all, as it is a uniquely loyalsit thing to represent their fanatical loony devotion to the Emperor.
As for "organized tactics" -IW DO NO FOLLOW THE CODEX ASTARTES. The "Imperial combat canon" you mention was applied to Loyalist forces after the IW turned. So using combat squads,chapter tactics and other things they never trained in is not really very represenetative of the IW.
As for leadership and not running- Living in the Eye of Terror making all survivors fearless? What? Really? That is pushing it, man.
I must have missed the part in any of the Chaos Codexes where all Chaos Space Marines were fearless. Their displine and skill is represented by high leadership. That is already handled. It is already represented on standard Chaos Marines.

[/QUOTE]So we are +2 for the SM dex. Now lets look at lesser things that can personify a IW army...

Leader who give command bonus to men, veterans who have be doing siege warfare for millennia, specialty weapons used to break down fortifications or mine areas (as per fluff attack on Terra and the planet fortress Petrubio set up to mess with the Iron Fists)

CSM codex:
leader giving bonus to men = none
veterans with siege ability = chosen (no seige or veteran skills besides melta equipment and infiltration though)
Specialty weapons = obliterators (but no mines available)

SM codex:
leader giving bonus to men = captains
Veterans with siege ability = sternguard or even a command squad with a apothecary to keep IW in the trenches alive), options for veteran skills via HQ characters.
Specialty weapons = mines via scouts, conversion beamer, thunder fire gun, multi typ shot from whirlwind, wider variety of landraiders.[/QUOTE]

Pretty sure most of those LR variantes came after the Crusade and Heresy meaning the IW do not have access to them. They might be really cool, and some may even be siege variants but that does not instantly make them representitive of IW.
Example=Ork Big Gunns are artillery but I think we can agree they are not exactly up for IW usage. Similar concept. Being artillery or siege like does not necessarily make them IW representative. Kinda like the Whirlwind.

Mines via scouts....hmm cool. 'Cept Scouts are decidely not a Chaos thing and very much not a IW thing.
Mines via whirlwind. Pretty close. Might work.
An apothecary would be a nice addition to the Chaos codex. I do not think they ever address what happened to them other than they seem(going by fluff) to have been regulated to a second line position(IE working in labs to make new Chaos Marines, making more crazy Khorne guys, and stripping the dead after the battle for horribly corrupt geneseed.)

I am afraid I missed how Sternguard are siege oriented. They are cool and new, yes, but Siege oriented? Please explain.
Rolling off of that we look at the Chaos Codex.
Siege Troopers in heavy armor? Plague Marines.
Kai Gun squads? Thousand Suns.
Assault Siege Troopers? HEY! How bout that(those?) 0-1 Khornate Berserkers from WD IW article?
It's not as if "well I cant use cult troops in an IW army" argument should bother you if you are already willing the proxy an entirely different codex.

As for the Leaders: That is a flaw in many a Codex-all commanders should...well...COMMAND.
The skills via HQ: Ok sure....but do any of them give siege specialist stuff? While they do give really cool abilities, I do not see how any of them scream "Iron Warriors hurray!" You could USE them as such, sure. Doesnt mean it fits.

[/QUOTE]Again, there is just more for the fluff ideas in the SM dex than for chaos. I never said you CANT do IW with the chaos dex. But it ends up being just as proxied as in the SM dex oddly enough.[/QUOTE]

Now that is a fallacy, sir. Your HQ, Terminators, Basic Marines, Raptors, Obliterators, Defilers, Chosen, and Khornate Berserkers all would not need to be proxied using the Chaos Codex. Any special "seige" troopers, IE using the cult units as siege units,same as Sternguard would require proxying and neither loyalist nor Chaos can use a basilisk so that would be a proxy on eithe side


[/QUOTE]Anyway, I didn't mean to let this devolve into a "is this counts as really worthy" thread. As per GW allowances i can use any codex with any models as long as each wargear item is uniquely represented. There is no such thing as fluff armies because even in 40k fluff never came from the choice of list options, it came from the missions and scenarios. You can use nids models and marine rules and no tourney can turn you away as long as you meet the WYSIWYG criteria. But should you try to re-enact the siege on holy terra, they you have to pick certain units and armys to properly re-create the scene.

So for fun, to flavour up the game, to get more use out of the models we have for any number of reasons, what chaos legion would you think could be well represented by the new Space Marines codex?[/QUOTE]

Disclaimer: I am not sure any of them could be WELL represented by it, but lets give it a go.
Drop Pods would work in almost any list.


A puritan Night Lords list dedicated to the ideals of Konrad Curze. Although it is REALLY reaching to claim ASTKNF fanaticism to Night Haunters is one of the ways to explain it. Run Shrike I guess to get some sneaky qucikness in there. Some Vanguard vets to represent better than average Raptors(Veterans in the Night Lords Raptor Ranks)
To do their Terror Force run anything that scares the opponent(like 3 Land Raiders...that would scare me!) The idea behind this Night Lords force is overwhelming force, to scare the enemy into submission. Now this is more of a strategic effect so it is hard to represent it tactically but hey....approximate!



Alpha Legion as they are NOT "all infiltrate, all the time" and running scouts as cultists is just so off. Run a codex marine force say they are "in congnito, and in your base, foiling your plans!"

None of the Cult Legions(you kinda need the patron gods in there SOMEWHERE for that to viable) though I suppose if you grab the Blood Angels list you could approximate a World Eaters force....kinda..sorta...maybe? yeah I don't really buy it either.

Word Bearers- Chaplains. ATSKNF representing their fanaticism. Unfortunately there is no way to represent the hordes of fanatical cultys these guys usually drive before them. Other than that, standard list.

Iron Warriors have been covered.

How bout the Pyre? Use VUlkan, make lots of FIRE?!

Out of ideas. Carry On.

ChaosBeast
12-09-2008, 21:37
to start i would like to say, i really like the idea of this list, and might even consider it myself. first, 2 little nit-picks. one, wouldnt dorn be better than pedro, as he can reinforce a piece of terrain, and secondly, your deamon prince, though cool, doesnt look like it should have FA 13, its not got any armour!

The Song of Spears
12-09-2008, 22:11
to start i would like to say, i really like the idea of this list, and might even consider it myself. first, 2 little nit-picks. one, wouldnt dorn be better than pedro, as he can reinforce a piece of terrain, and secondly, your deamon prince, though cool, doesnt look like it should have FA 13, its not got any armour!

Well, i actually think there are a variety of HQs that would work, i just liked pedro for the way his description matched the old warsmith model. This is largely a conversion attempt. All of my models will be highly converted and painted to a high standard. Having new rules and units gives me more excuses to make new conversions :D

And as afar as the DP being FA 13, that makes him tough, however, he is still one shot one kill if he gets hit by a las canon or railgun or some such, where as a regular DP will always need to pick away at all 4 of his wounds. Again, i liked the conversion oppertunity. Andi did recently beef him up a big with more armour to make him look tougher. (as it is he stands half again taller than a dread so he is bigger than the picture may make him seem.)

I just love the idea of fortifying a location, that is such a IW thing to do! I will be trying all this out tonight!

Adra
12-09-2008, 22:31
I like the list. I would love to see the oblits you propose. Crazy unit that would be.

If it matches the fluff better then thats fine. I think your list looks more fluffy and i think that is the only reason your doing this. Thats a good thing.

The DP is a good idea, but just having the dread is also good. I think i would prefer the dread look tbh. You could deamon it up without it not looking like a dread. just me though.

Gatsby
12-09-2008, 23:11
Anything can be called a Daemon, but it easier to admit you are clutching at straws.

love the constructive criticism.

and for everyone who wants to continually insult people who want to use the SM codex to represent a different army, think about it, maybe if GW put as much effort into ALL their codex's perhaps we wouldn't have to make counts as armies.

So before you continue to try and start flame wars try looking at it from the perspective of the other players, you know the ones who have codex's that have 24 army options (IG) or 11 army options (necrons) as opposed to your 60 something army options (hell, your more customizable than tyranids now, and that's saying something)

now back to the thread, i think using the vanguard as your daemons depstriking is a good idea, but they would be better as raptors (raptors are supposed to be some of the best at what they do, only fair to represent them using the elite of the fast attack)

Sidstyler
13-09-2008, 01:08
It can do that, but its not really a "sit back and rain death on the enemy over the fortress walls tank"

It isn't?

Well I have to admit, the battlecannon did kinda throw me off...:rolleyes:

Anyway, I don't really care which codex you use to represent your army. I have my own opinions about it but I'm not going to force anyone to use their own book. If you think it represents you better, so be it. But I expect the same treatment if I feel like fielding my Tau as a Ravenwing army. :p

Slaaneshi Slave
13-09-2008, 01:27
So before you continue to try and start flame wars try looking at it from the perspective of the other players, you know the ones who have codex's that have 24 army options (IG) or 11 army options (necrons) as opposed to your 60 something army options (hell, your more customizable than tyranids now, and that's saying something)


Chaos Marines (3,000 points)
Marines (3,000 points)
Guard (6,000 points)
Sisters of Battle (6,000 points)
Eldar (4,000 points)
Tyranids (3,500 points)

Pretty sure I have the full specrum covered. I am part of all sides of the debate, and I still think it is hypocrital of Chaos players to whine about some slight proxy issues with the Chaos book, then proxy the whole damn army.

Deadboytat2
13-09-2008, 02:12
My friend was using the CSM book to represent his legion of the damned army when it first came out because when the apocalypse book came out they could be played and they came with FNP. So he was using PM's to build his list. I think this is still the best way to go about it even with them being a unit choice in the new SM book. For one it is possible to make the hole army one thing instead of just three units and then the rest of the army as some guys that got some lucky help. Also he had a vary pretty dread with giant angle wings that were on fire for his HQ it was representing a DP.

so again im all for using what ever book you think is going to fit your army best as long as it is painted and i know what codex you are running. I think it will be more fun to play someone happy with how there army plays and feels then if they were playing a army that used a codex they were not 100% happy with.

Adra
13-09-2008, 02:45
Pretty sure I have the full specrum covered. I am part of all sides of the debate, and I still think it is hypocrital of Chaos players to whine about some slight proxy issues with the Chaos book, then proxy the whole damn army.

That may be true but its not relevant to this thread as the OP was looking for feedback on his SM list using the new rules and if it would best represent, in a fluffy way, the Iron Warriors legion as described in 40k backstory.

He did not say that the chaos codex was badly written, light on fluff, overpowered, underpowered, badly spell checked, or poor in any way. He didnt whine about potential weaknesses in the codex. He did demonstrate the opinion that, in terms of fluff at least, his Iron Warriors army would be better represented through some of the options available in the new SM codex. His list does not seem overpowered and he seems commited to creating a fluffy, while still competative, army withing the legal framwork of 40k.

Your opinion has focused on the apparent hypocritical nature of chaos players in their vocal dislike of their own codex and the veiw that they now seek to jump to the new SM codex in an attempt to represent their army more accurately, or cravenly seek to 'power up' their force, through a series of proxies. The OP has demonstrated that he does wish to create a proxy army but does not seem to be doing this out of hate for his mother codex but out of a real desire to better represent part of the 40k background on the table top. Regardless of if his motives are for power alone it was not the purpose of the thread.

Maybe you could share your opinion on how best he could represent his army in either codex. You may have some ideas on how best the SM list could be used to create an Iron Warriors list, and if you consider it an unwise move maybe you should demonstrate how best he complete his task with the current CSM codex. From my limited time on the forum I always considered you an individual for whome fluff and army character was more important than rules and power and the petty differences between codecies. Im sure your passion for that aspect of army building could be well applied to this task.

Armydillo978
13-09-2008, 04:21
SoS, very nice and creative work. Not sure why others want to rain on that parade but I'm a vote in favor of pushing the rules. If I recall correctly, in the new mini-rulebook in the Assault on Black Reach, they (being GW) indicated that the rules are guidelines or hard and fast....whichever you prefer.

I would think that bit of advice applies to the Codexes as well. Keep up with what you envision for your game world and the others can do with their own as they wish. It's nice to see someone not in lockstep with the rules lawyers and being creative. Nice work. :)

LoneSniperSG
13-09-2008, 05:27
So.. am I to understand that your insanity actually makes sense? You're using the SM codex (the new one, I take it) for your traitor Iron Warriors? Does the Chaos dex not work as it should?

.. It's so ridiculous that it sounds awesome. Seriously, I like it.

Slaaneshi Slave
13-09-2008, 11:07
From my limited time on the forum I always considered you an individual for whome fluff and army character was more important than rules and power and the petty differences between codecies. Im sure your passion for that aspect of army building could be well applied to this task.

I possibly mis represented my stance here. I have absolutely no problem with proxies and creative use of the wrong codex. I always liked the idea of representing Orks with the Marine book as it allows for many great conversions and would have great character.

My problem is that, like many people, I am fed up of the constant whining from most (internet) Chaos players about the new Chaos book, about how it is impossible to create a fluffy legions list, about how you need minor proxies for certain things such as Warsmiths (just use the arm as a power fist, he shouldn't be trying to fix tanks under fire anyway), or how Mark of Tzeentch makes a Dark Apostle unfluffy. That sort of crap.

We then see the mass migration of Chaos players to the new Marine book. There have been several threads recently hailing it a better representation of Chaos than the Chaos book (which is complete ********). The heart of the matter is the Chaos book had it's teeth wripped out, because it was way too powerful (sure, there were weak options, which the Chaos players always parade around when this argument comes up, but in general it was the most broken thing since the continents were formed). Chaos now sees that Marines get a bunch of new stuff, and because of Codex Creep it is likely to be flashy even if it is not a great deal more powerful than the Chaos book. You know desertion is a crime in my army? (that's a joke, before somebody takes that and uses to it "blow my argument out of the water" :p)

Chaos wants shiney things, they don't want a "fluffy balanced army".

So, we can no longer make a fluffy Iron Warriors list with the Chaos book, right? Lets see... (some slight proxy work may follow, do not be alarmed).

Iron Warriors Siege Force

Horon Blackheart
Power Claw, Heavy Flamer and Warp Time are used to represent this Warmsiths servo harness. Pretty close approximations I believe.

5 Chaos Terminators
2 Combi Melta, 2 Combi Flamer, 1 Reaper Autocannon, 1 Icon of Chaos Glory
Just what it says on the tin, breach takers

10 Chosen
3 Power Weapons, 1 Power Fist, Icon of Chaos Glory
Sneaky guys to sneak forward whilst sneaking to get inside the fortifications sneakily. Plus I really like this squad, I have one myself painted up as Iron Warriors

10 Marines
Plasma Gun, Missile Launcher, Icon of Chaos Glory

10 Marines
Plasma Gun, Missile Launcher, Icon of Chaos Glory

10 Marines
Plasma Gun, Missile Launcher, Icon of Chaos Glory

3 Obliterators

Defiler

Defiler

That list is a great Iron Warriors army. The Defilers are to be converted into more vehicle like things, take the body off and position the weapons around the base unit (such as I have done with mine). Everything else fits in perfectly. I don't include a Daemon Prince, as I don't like them in Iron Warriors, but that is personal taste.

So, please tell me how your SM list is more Iron Warriors that mine here. It's not. It is just shinier.

Btw, sorry for the massive post, but I was asked for my opinion on the matter.

willydstyle
13-09-2008, 11:39
I think if you add a chainfist to that Termi squad you'll make them even more "breach takers" as they could rip open bulk-heads and blast-doors with it.


Personally, I don't care what codex my opponent uses to represent his army, as long as it's made clear.

I've been playing a guy lately that's been using the DA codex to represent white scars, not because the options were not available in the marine codex, but because the options were better in the DA codex, and I thought that his army that looked liked white scars, played liked white scars, and even smelled like white scars (Yak's milk... yuck) worked just great. Using the codex that best fits how you think your legion/chapter/etc. should be played works just fine for me.

Adra
13-09-2008, 11:45
Btw, sorry for the massive post, but I was asked for my opinion on the matter.

Dont apologise. That was a much better post than the one before and exactly what i was looking for.

I think your opinion on chaos players jumping to the new sm codex because its shiny is valid but I think you have to except that some players dont do it just because its shiny and that they have reasons for switching which make sense to their army background. Dont paint them all with the same stick.

I played death guard in the last CSM codex and i was very happy with my army. It was a little underpowered but i stuck to the background and loved it. In the new chaos codex i dont feel i can represent my army as well as i used to, but these things happen and thats that. I would be stupid to try a SM proxie for death guard as that would suck all fluff out of the list. Therefor i have to stick with the CSM codex. As it is ive decided to make a Tzeentch Disc list which is alot of fun in background but will probably never win a game...but thats fine i really dont do the hobby to win. If an individual seems passionate about his fluff and thinks the new SM does it better then thats something that should be aplauded not mocked.

As for the two lists....i think your list is pretty good. In fact i think its a better representation of Iron Warriors in some areas than the original list (raptors? huh?) but i think that there are alot of options in the new SM list that make for a more fluff Iron Warriors list. I agree with no deamons or DP but the ironclads are a great idea. The whirlwind to basalisk idea ok but would be just a great convertion opertunity i think. Maybe a basalisk with rockets.

The Song of Spears
14-09-2008, 07:12
I possibly mis represented my stance here. I have absolutely no problem with proxies and creative use of the wrong codex. I always liked the idea of representing Orks with the Marine book as it allows for many great conversions and would have great character.


So after some belittling and rude comments you finally accept the basic attempt to simply convert a army and use its rules for fluffs sake. Fine. But next time read the first post before you make those comments. In fact it doesn't even matter if someone hates the CSM codex, that is their right to do so. That was never the question or discussion here. It started as a conversion army and remains such. No comments for or against the CSM codex was ever requested in this thread.



My problem is that, like many people, I am fed up of the constant whining from most (internet) Chaos players about the new Chaos book, about how it is impossible to create a fluffy legions list, about how you need minor proxies for certain things such as Warsmiths (just use the arm as a power fist, he shouldn't be trying to fix tanks under fire anyway), or how Mark of Tzeentch makes a Dark Apostle unfluffy. That sort of crap.


And i am fed up with people who whine about AirCav Eldar, but i don't belittle them for their complaints. Your assumption is that chaos players want new powers, my assumption is that you don't listen very well. 99.9% of what can be read on Warseer on the subject of CSM codex is the lack of rules yes, but as the new SM codex points out vividly, this has nothing to do with balance and never was a consideration for the reason the new CSM are as they are today.

No matter how you look at the rules for any given codex, chaos is defined in the fluff as being the most varied, most chaotic army in the galaxy. This is a absolute, no way around it, there is no book anyone can point to or reference anyone can make to state that the imperial marines are more varied and diverse than chaos marines. And a codex that requires any amount of proxys or counts as will not fit that ideal of chaos.

Now its fair to say that to encompass any army fully, let alone all that is chaos, would be out of the scope of the game. However, based on the level of detail, size of codex, number of options and customization before any proxys are needed you can compare the new SM dex and the CSM dex and see that the CSM is less than. Is that in and of itself a big deal? No. But it begs the question, Why? Why make chaos marines so less diverse? I am not talking about proxys. Without proxying a single model i have double the diversity and unit options in the new SM codex than in the chaos one. Why? Why does the SM codex get a special character for White Scars and chaos gets none for Iron Warriors? Why do SM characters alter list options based on the army they lead and none of the CSM characters do such?

It's not a little nitpick here, its a huge difference in the codex design and level of customization before proxys are needed. I don't need to proxy a leader for the White Scars, or Dark Angels, or Blood Angels, or Ultra Marines, or Raven Guard, or Imperial Fists, yet all chaos gets is leaders (who have no effect on list comp) for the four major cults and some generic chaos marine leader. No Iron Warriors Warsmith, no Dark Apostle nothing. And no way to use a character or a HQ to alter a list in such a way as to make some kind of fluffy representation of them without having to simply use the counts as rules.

I don't have to 'count's as' almost anything in all of the imperial marine army now due to the new SM codex, Dark Angels and Blood Angels and Space Wolves codexes.

There is no denying it, Chaos got less.

Is what chaos did get bad? No, i think the CSM dex is ok. Its just not enough. If you disagree, then i challenge you to throw away all of your codexs, all of them except the CSM codex and use that to represent ALL of your armys, from orks to necrons to imperial guard, all of them. And on top of that play that one codex for the next 7 years. Nothing else. And then tell me you are still having fun with all the variety in the CSM codex and how well it represents all of the races in 40k. That's how diverse chaos is.

Fat chance. No one has the guts to do that. You know why? Because you all love rules. Special rules, unique rules, customizations and variety. Its what makes the game stand out over Twilight Imperium.

So don't play all high and mighty for people who want more rules. Rules make 40k, and without a great variety of them the game only suffers.




So, we can no longer make a fluffy Iron Warriors list with the Chaos book, right? Lets see... (some slight proxy work may follow, do not be alarmed).

So, please tell me how your SM list is more Iron Warriors that mine here. It's not. It is just shinier.


Ok, i will do so, but not to argue but to simply do a sanity check on my SM list.

Again we need Siege equipment and ability's as per fluff. We need some people who can assault a fortress in some fashion, either by wall breeches or assaulting the top of the battlements. In fact lets just quote the IA...

"The Iron Warriors led by Perturabo were devastating siege troops.
Expert engineers with cross-training from the Priesthood of Mars, they
quickly built on their already impressive reputation. Whilst the Iron
Warriors were determined to serve Mankind and their Emperor, their
specialisation was an unfortunate one. The nature of siege warfare is
long periods of dull, back-breaking labour broken by the most brutal,
merciless combat imaginable.

After Istvaan, the Iron Warriors were let loose. Finally freed from doomed
missions, they were possessed with a terrible energy. On a dozen worlds,
an Iron Warrior Warsmith replaced the true governor and tithes were paid
under the shadow of fortified battlements.
A strong contingent of the Legion accompanied Perturabo to Terra where he
supervised the siege of the Emperor’s Palace. Here his skills were invaluable
and the Iron Warriors found a sublime pleasure in tearing the edifices of the
Imperium down. The end was near for the defenders when the Emperor
confronted Horus on his battle barge and defeated him. Like many of Horus’
followers, the Iron Warriors fled to the Eye of Terror, securing a new home
world where they could brood on the turn of events and plot vengeance.
The rest of the Iron Warriors defended their small empire based on Olympia,
but there was no refuge from the retribution of the loyalist Legions. The
Imperial Fists supported the Ultramarines in a decade-long campaign to
liberate the subjugated worlds. They discovered the Iron Warriors to be like
a barbed hook that, once embedded into a victim, could only be removed
with great risk of injuring the patient further. The Olympia garrison held
out for two years, eventually triggering their missile stockpiles when defeat
was unavoidable. They left a blasted wasteland that, like the other Traitor
Legion home worlds, was declared Perdita."

So with the unlikeness that anyone will read all that (and BTW it NOWHERE mentions the IW as being paranoid or selfish, i have the book sitting right here.)

The Lists:
Huron vs. Pedro. They both have a powerfist, huron has a psyker power, of which the IW use almost none. Pedro has Orbital Bombardment which the IW use in the preliminary siege as outlined in the novel. Huron does nothing else, while Pedro makes his troops stubborn, as by the IA excerpt above, is exactly what IW are 'a barbed hook'.

My opinion = Pedro is better.

Chaos termis vs. loyalist termis = almost no options are different there, they can have nearly identical equipment.

My opinion = they are the same

10 chosen vs. 10 raptors = IW are never described as sneaky, but i suppose the option is there. Raptors can use their jump packs to reach fortress towers or DS into fortress rooftops. The rest is basically the same.

My opinion = raptors make more sense. its hard to sneak up on a fortress, but not as hard to throw bodies onto it.

Chaos marines vs. Imperial marines = they are the same, one is just more stubborn and hard to run off than the other, that being the imperial marines. Since that is explicitly stated in the IW fluff...

My opinion = the imperial marines are better, but not by enough to matter.

obliterators vs. thudd gun and conversion beamer = The fluff has changed on the oblits. So with the current fluff they are a separate cult from IW. So they can be used by them, by they are distinctly stated as not being IW. Where as the men operation the thudd gun and conversion beamer are standard infantry and thus can be IW troops trained in that weapon.

My opinion = the function of the guns is immaterial, as they are similar, however the tech marines can be enlisted IW where as by the CSM fluff, the oblits are now their own cult. The conversion beamer and thudd gun tech marines still fit the fluff better.

Defiler vs whirlwind = both can use ordinance, one has indirect fire indication shooting over siege walls, the other has claws to tear down walls.

my opinion = They are the same. One might be used over the other depending on the fortification, garrison etc. No bonus for either one.

over all = the tech marines can actually do one thing that the fluff explicitly states the IW do better than any other imperial army = fortify locations and entrench themselves. The Tech Marines do this, they actually have a rule to do this. This is a big bonus for the SM codex for IW in my opinion.

So what i am saying by all this is that the amount of proxy and counts as and rules associated DIRECTLY with fluff are better matched by the SM codex than the chaos one (or any other codex for that matter)

Slaaneshi Slave
14-09-2008, 08:29
You still don't get it though do you. The most important thing about 40k. Rules don't make a theme, imagery do.

Adra
14-09-2008, 11:37
You still don't get it though do you. The most important thing about 40k. Rules don't make a theme, imagery do.

Imagery is fine if you have no other options. In this case the OP can use both imagery and rules to create the flavour of Iron Warriors. No bad thing.

Madfool2
14-09-2008, 13:21
Flavour, gah I hate that word, then again I'm a new codex chaos player ;)

DantesInferno
14-09-2008, 13:51
Is what chaos did get bad? No, i think the CSM dex is ok. Its just not enough. If you disagree, then i challenge you to throw away all of your codexs, all of them except the CSM codex and use that to represent ALL of your armys, from orks to necrons to imperial guard, all of them. And on top of that play that one codex for the next 7 years. Nothing else. And then tell me you are still having fun with all the variety in the CSM codex and how well it represents all of the races in 40k. That's how diverse chaos is.

Wha...

How on earth is that a sensible test for a Codex? Which existing Codices do you think can be used to represent everything adequately?


So with the unlikeness that anyone will read all that (and BTW it NOWHERE mentions the IW as being paranoid or selfish, i have the book sitting right here.)

Uh, yes it does... Check the "Geneseed" section.

"They have a marked tendency toward suspicion and paranoia but are also extremely intelligent with naturally well-developed problem solving abilities."


Chaos termis vs. loyalist termis = almost no options are different there, they can have nearly identical equipment.

My opinion = they are the same

Except that the Chaos Terminators are using the traditional pre-Heresy wargear, while Loyalist Terminators use equipment developed by the Imperium after the Heresy.


10 chosen vs. 10 raptors = IW are never described as sneaky, but i suppose the option is there. Raptors can use their jump packs to reach fortress towers or DS into fortress rooftops. The rest is basically the same.

My opinion = raptors make more sense. its hard to sneak up on a fortress, but not as hard to throw bodies onto it.

Jump packs were very rare amongst the Legions before the Heresy (and continue to be in the Eye), and thus would not have formed a major part of the Iron Warriors' traditional siege doctrine.

Also, Infiltrate isn't just being sneaky.


Chaos marines vs. Imperial marines = they are the same, one is just more stubborn and hard to run off than the other, that being the imperial marines. Since that is explicitly stated in the IW fluff...

My opinion = the imperial marines are better, but not by enough to matter.

If you're worried about Chaos Marines' morale, give them the Icon of Chaos Undivided. They already have +1 Ld over loyalists and they become pretty reliable with a reroll, you know...

On the upside, the Chaos Marines get +1A to represent their relative veterancy, and they're not burdened with rules encouraging them to adhere to the Codex Astartes, which is good since it was compiled and enforced by Guilliman after the Heresy.


obliterators vs. thudd gun and conversion beamer = The fluff has changed on the oblits. So with the current fluff they are a separate cult from IW. So they can be used by them, by they are distinctly stated as not being IW. Where as the men operation the thudd gun and conversion beamer are standard infantry and thus can be IW troops trained in that weapon.

The background hasn't changed at all on the Obliterators, it's just gone into a bit more detail. Obviously there are still lots of Obliterators who came from the Iron Warriors Legion, and of all the Legions, the Iron Warriors are sure to have the best relationship with the Obliterator Cults. They're certainly a valid part of a post-Heresy Iron Warrior army.


Defiler vs whirlwind = both can use ordinance, one has indirect fire indication shooting over siege walls, the other has claws to tear down walls.

my opinion = They are the same. One might be used over the other depending on the fortification, garrison etc. No bonus for either one.

Whirlwinds are, by and large, tactical artillery used by the Astartes in a close-support role. They're not particularly long-ranged or powerful, and they're not used to batter down fortresses. Defilers are.

Havock
14-09-2008, 14:01
I thought the whole problem Chaos players had with the Chaos Codex is that they don't like Counts As. This list is no closer to a Iron Warriors list than one made from the Chaos book (i.e. can make a perfectly good one from either). You just want shiney new rules. <----Poor comment removed. WarSeer Inquisition---->

And why shouldn't he?
I mean, the SM 'dex certainly looks a lot better than "Codex: bland" aka. Chaos space marines.

Slaaneshi Slave
14-09-2008, 14:07
And how will the loyalist book be any more characterful than the Chaos book? With the Chaos book you have 6 different varieties of pretty much every unit (standard/renegade, undivided/black legion, khorne, nurgle, tzeench and slaanesh) allowing much greater customisability. With the loyalist book you get marines with pistols and swords, marines with carbines and marines with missile launchers. That's it. Seriously, explain how that is more chaotic.

Havock
14-09-2008, 18:59
Somehow, I don't think the cult specific marines have a lot of appeal to anyone who had a night lords, alpha legion or Iron Warrior army list.
Although I AM kinda glad there are no space marines with +1 to cover save anymore :p

AdmiralDick
14-09-2008, 19:09
But I think the problem people are having with it is caused by the Chaos whining.

ironically though, it is now those that complain about the so-called whiners that are causing the problem.



I am part of all sides of the debate, and I still think it is hypocrital of Chaos players to whine about some slight proxy issues with the Chaos book, then proxy the whole damn army.

i'm still not convinced that you have a case here SS. whilst i'm not convinced that those opposed to the C: CSM have been as vocal as those that are opposed to those that are opposed (so i'm getting a bit tired of the label 'whiners'), i'm even less convinced that the reason that proxying was not the answer was simply because players were stubborn.

the reason that players were unhappy about simply saying that their units counted as something different, was because the suggested units were not just a bit different, but quite drastically different, and in the most key areas.

people are keen to find rules that fit with the unit that they wish to represent on the gaming table, and so many are willing to look to C: SM for answers that they felt that they could not find in C: CSM. i see no hypocrisy in this, only sensible discussions that any of us would make in that same position.


Chaos wants shiney things, they don't want a "fluffy balanced army".

i don't see how the two are mutually exclusive, nor why it is wrong to want 'shiny new things'? if we didn't simply buy everything shiny new thing that we could get our hands on, we wouldn't be gamers. but that is an aside.


I don't include a Daemon Prince, as I don't like them in Iron Warriors, but that is personal taste.

So, please tell me how your SM list is more Iron Warriors that mine here. It's not. It is just shinier.

thanks for posting some ideas.

but i don't think we need to judge between the two lists. this is not a competition between you and SoS. your list is very much your list and doesn't really reflect what SoS wants to achieve. which is all well and good for you, but could you please put together a list from the current C: CSM that reflects the units that SoS wants in his army. that is the only real way of demonstrating that what he wants is perfectly doable in the book and he doesn't need to look to the new codex for what he wants. (which i believe is your point in this thread).


You still don't get it though do you. The most important thing about 40k. Rules don't make a theme, imagery do.

i wish.

sadly that is patently untrue and playing the game for a few moments will show just how false that is. the reason that we know that life i cheap in the IG is because they die like flies on the battlefield. it doesn't matter how many times you write that the Tau are the ultimate in close combat, the rules of the game will simply over-rule you in seconds.

rules play a pivotal role in how armies feel and what themes you can and can't pursue (with any level of success). the onus is on the games developers to make the army play right, not on the gamer to paint right.


With the loyalist book you get marines with pistols and swords, marines with carbines and marines with missile launchers. That's it. Seriously, explain how that is more chaotic.

quite aside from the fact that SoS has already given you several very specific and accurate examples of where the C: SM is superior to the C: CSM in this particular regard, its not actually what we are discussing here. so i would suggest that SoS does not actually distract from the conversation by going over the same ground again.

instead i would suggest that you show SoS how you can create a more 'chaotic' army, with the same style and feel as his Loyalist one, using the C: CSM, thus demonstrating that the book is indeed more chaotic.

Darthvegeta800
14-09-2008, 19:52
I'm afraid i'm going to side with the arguments of Ubermensch Commander and some others.

Granted, it's your right to use whatever you want. (though the other player has to conscent possibly - heck the other player has to want to fight your army) But you can do pretty much as you please in this case.

However I don't see a problem with the current codex to play IW's or NL's... or any others at all.

You have expert assault troops, you have Havoks, Defiler and a variation of heavy vehicles. CSM's are fine for IW troops and i don't see why a Chaos Lord can't be a Warsmith in the least.

Furthermore, the SM's seem less appropriate than the CSM codex.

What annoys me about the SM codex is the lack of streamlinging that contrasts with the previous publications. Not to mention i find the hero thing completely silly.

EDIT: On a secondary note, this thread will never reach a true conclusion. And the venomous undertone in both sides is disturbing.
It's like the pro and anti CSM codex discussion. It just seems like few have an openminded view on it.
Personally i'm unsure what to feel about the loss of Legion rules.
On one side i find it a bit a shame as it was a nice extra, on the other side i see the use of the streamlining of the codex and i don't truly see it as a huge loss, as i feel i can still play any Legion and still feel it is what it's supposed to be.
Of course i can understand it being painful for an established non BL player who perhaps grew used to certain rules/elements or feels certain purchases are no longer useful.

VariableBob
14-09-2008, 19:53
the reason that players were unhappy about simply saying that their units counted as something different, was because the suggested units were not just a bit different, but quite drastically different, and in the most key areas.

And now that they have accepted the need to 'counts as' their units, people are still berating them! :rolleyes:
Seriously, if your position is that Chaos (or anyone else for that matter) must accept the use of proxying for their army then you cannot complain when they proxy their army.

TzeentchForPresident
14-09-2008, 23:45
Woot!! I just want to say that i am SOOO happy with the new SM dex.

So I am starting this thread for only those who want to discuss how they are able to better represent (however they want to justify it) their chaos Legion (traitor chapter)

Here are my IW and how i will be using then from now on:

Pedro Kantor = 175 = Warsmith

master of forge w/conver beam = 120 = oblit (my oblits are made from tech marines + tau stealth suits + termiantors)

Ironclad Dread w/ asslnch = 195 = stat deamon prince ( made this guy out of a IG Sentinel and some inquisitor bits, he looks very techy)
+ drop pod w/ loc bcn

Termis x5 w/1x hv flm = 205 = IW Termis

tactical squad x8 marines = 214 = iron warriors
+searg w/ fist
+Rhino

tactical squad x10 marines = 180 = iron warriors
w/ 1x las

9 assault marines = 225 = raptors
+serg w/ fist

thunderfire gun = 100 = tech marine using the thudd gun model

Whirlwind = 85 = basilisk
_________
1499

So what legion will you want to use the new SM dex with and with what models representing what?

This is a great example of use of "count as" to be able to create a fluffy Chaos army using the new SM codex. The SM codex does a better job to represent the different undivided legions and CSMs that rescently turned to chaos then the 4.0 CSM codex.

<--Will be waiting for the Legion codex book to be able to make a proper 1000 sons army without having to ask for permission to use the 3.5 codex.

cailus
15-09-2008, 03:03
The new marine siege dreads are also more in line with the emphasis on siege warfare.

Chaos Dreads do have access to siege upgrades. Indeed 2nd edition Chaos Dreads were equipped with Thunder Hammers which are more of a siege weapon but which are now just generic DDCW.

They don't go crazy but then not all Chaos Dreads are crazy (e.g. the Slaaneeshi Dreadnought commander in Daemon World).

TheWarSmith
16-09-2008, 04:56
You know, I've been contemplating doing something like this. Do you think lots of people would have problems if you played a chaos army that used loyalist rules?

I'd have so many more options if I could do it this way in theming the way I want to.

TheOneWithNoName
16-09-2008, 05:04
Only from the blowhards who try to push the new chaos codex.

TheWarSmith
16-09-2008, 05:12
Hmmm, might need to rethink this whole army now.

Chaos redeemer landraider!!!!

Would iron warriors have techmarines+servitor units?

If only I could get the necromunda pit slave arms!!!

Hellebore
16-09-2008, 05:45
I don't have a problem with counts as in any regard if it works with the army you want to make.

The anti-chaos whiner posts probably wouldn't have happened if someone wanted to counts as using the ORK codex (hypothetically). It's just that the counts as list happens to be the diametrically opposed army from the original one that's got people riled up.

Is it ok to use a Deathwing army to counts as a chaos terminator assault force? It's ok to use it as an ork nob army or an Imperial Fist terminator force. The reasons to make a chaos version are the same as the ork or Imperial Fist version.

I've been thinking of using the space marine codex (at the time I was thinking of using the OLD ONE not the new one, so you can't accuse me of wanting 'shinies') to represent my Eldar because I don't like the way the eldar codex represents the most technologically advanced army in the game bar necrons. I don't think eldar should have 5+ armour saves. They have tech they actually understand unlike the Imperium. Lascannons are in my opinion better than brightlances.

Counts As is my favourite rule. I fought for people to use counts as with the new chaos marine codex (apostles = chaos lords with mark of Tzeentch for example).

I would be a hypocrite if I didn't support using the new marine codex to represent chaos legions if they do it better than the chaos army list does (which I think in some cases it does).

You see, a lot of the time for me at least, Counts As starts off with the spark of an idea produced by one rule in an army list. For instance, using the eldar codex to make an exodite army (just because they are also eldar doesn't necessarily mean the eldar codex will work) where jetbikes count as dragon knights. They can move over terrain (natural predators that can run through terrain) they increase the toughness of the rider and provide a scaly skin save. Wraithlords are monstrous creatures, perfect as a rule to have a Megadon with heavy weapons mounted on it (the wraithsight rule can represent the animal's innate stupidity).

HOWEVER, one idea or rule or unit does not an army make. However, because this army list has that 'spark' of an idea that no other does (like the examples I've given) you want to stick with it. That then requires you start coming up with creative Counts As ideas for everything else in the army list to actually MAKE a viable army.

It's at this point where you start stretching the justifications a bit in order to include units to make a viable army. So I rationalised wraithguard as some kind of herbivorous animal with a large heavy weapon mounted on their back with a gunner standing behind.

So once you've taken the counts as ideas that are really strong, you've got to pad them out with less obvious ones to turn it into a workable army.

Anyway, I don't always agree with GW's interpretation of their universe (the objective truth of it because it is their's). That then means I don't agree with the rules they put in a codex. However, in order to play a game I need to use GW sanctioned rules, so I might go and use another codex because I think those rules better reflect MY OPINION of how an army should function.

As I have more fun playing the way I want to and not how GW wants me to, I will without hesitation play counts as in any manner I deem most enjoyable.

I WISH each codex worked the way I wanted it to, but if it doesn't then I won't have a problem using another one

EDIT: At the time of release the chaos codex indicated yet another design change where everything was becoming more streamlined. I was absolutely FINE with that because I was under the assumption that ALL codicies would get the same treatment. They barely released 3 before the new marine codex came out and it through that concept out the window with YET ANOTHER design change. This time though, the design change backflipped on the previous one. Which ironically meant that the chaos codex was more constrained than the codex astartes following loyalist marines. Had the new marine codex been as streamlined and simplified as the chaos codex we wouldn't be seeing ANY of this, because the chaos codex even as streamlined as it is would represent chaos better than a streamlined new marine codex.

The design change had to start somewhere, and it started with loyalist marines. But because the last chaos army list was only recently released AND in a minimalist format it won't get the same design strategy that the new marine codex has gotten for the next 5 years or so. Even then they may backflip on the design strategy before they get to it so that everything becomes minimalist and the NEW chaos codex is even LESS versatile than it is at the moment...such are the vagaries of GW's design policy.


Hellebore

The Song of Spears
16-09-2008, 06:06
Hell all! Thanks for the support! Around here everyone thinks this idea is great, but then again, we are more for the fluff and fun of the game as well as conversions. And its usually pretty easy to spot a power player when the whole army is using horrible proxys and no paint and generally makes little lost comp sense to anyone at all. But i dont see that here, and really haven't much lately.

Anyway. I think Hellbore and AdmiralDick put it very well, this just makes sense, and i think anyone else interested should look into this. Plus its 100% GW legal even right up to the GT rules, so go for it!

The IA has a good amount of fluff on the traitor legions, and many of them just make sense with these rules, its almost like GW did this on purpose. And heck, even the odd bits about wargear make no sense to argue about seeing as every section of the chaos (and ork) codexes talk about how the chaos marines raid and loot the imperium.

I have ideas for the other legions as well, i will try to get one of them up tomorrow, if anyone else has a list they want to share for any legion i would love to see it!

StormWulfen
16-09-2008, 07:11
just make sure you don't use the actuall pedro kantor model as he is a crimson fist, wich makes him an imperial fist, wich makes the model uber-no.

:chrome:

AdmiralDick
16-09-2008, 11:13
Seriously, if your position is that Chaos (or anyone else for that matter) must accept the use of proxying for their army then you cannot complain when they proxy their army.

sorry is this aimed at me? or just using my post for the quote? 'cos i'm totally on your side.

i'm confuzzled! :wtf:


You know, I've been contemplating doing something like this. Do you think lots of people would have problems if you played a chaos army that used loyalist rules?

I'd have so many more options if I could do it this way in theming the way I want to.

you wouldn't run into any rules problems at all, as long as you stuck to the basic rules of WYSIWYG. and you are unlikely to run into any resistance from other players, certainly the majority of poster on this thread haven't been against it, and we Warseers represent some of the most hard to please players in the world. however, should you run into a player that has a problem, be prepared for some vitriol.


Chaos Dreads do have access to siege upgrades. Indeed 2nd edition Chaos Dreads were equipped with Thunder Hammers which are more of a siege weapon but which are now just generic DDCW.

man, i miss power scourges. :cries:


Would iron warriors have techmarines+servitor units?

yes and no.

they are not as technologically minded as the Iron Hands, but they do rely heavily on technology. Warsmiths are noted for their use of Servo Arms, they are quick to replace mutated flesh with bionics, pack a higher percentage of vehicles than other legions (which need maintenance) and just love building projects (impenetrable bunkers and citadels are a favourite). so whilst they may not sanctify techmarines, they play a big part in every day life so either techmarines or techmarine equivalents must b quite common.


I don't have a problem with counts as in any regard if it works with the army you want to make.

yet another fine quote. i'm going to have to start sigging these.


Counts As is my favourite rule. I fought for people to use counts as with the new chaos marine codex (apostles = chaos lords with mark of Tzeentch for example).

i'm all for encouraging people to play Chaos Sorcerers with the Mark of Tzeentch for Dark Apostles and Chaos Lords with power fists for Warsmiths, if that is as far as they want to go with their models. i don't want to stop anyone from using those units if that is what they want, but i am utterly opposed to the fact that if you want a more accurate unit you are not entitled to it. why should we not be allowed a Dark Apostle that really does inspire/terrify his troops, like a chaplain or commander does? why should we not be allowed a Warsmith who can repair vehicles and keep them in the battle longer, like a techmarine can?

if some people want a unit in name only, then that is cool. but that doesn't mean that everyone should have to accept that situation.

i'm all for using the C: SM to represent as many of the Traitor Legions as it can.


That then requires you start coming up with creative Counts As ideas for everything else in the army list to actually MAKE a viable army.

It's at this point where you start stretching the justifications a bit in order to include units to make a viable army. So I rationalised wraithguard as some kind of herbivorous animal with a large heavy weapon mounted on their back with a gunner standing behind.

i would like to remind players (not necessarily you Hellebore, but your post makes for a concise quote) of a point that is so often forgotten. the only reason you associate the rules with a Wraithlord is because that is the background that is attached to them. if they were void of background, then you would have no issue at all with saying they could just as easily be a dinosaur with guns. this is true of absolutely every rule in 40k. background is not tacit to the rules.


just make sure you don't use the actuall pedro kantor model as he is a crimson fist, wich makes him an imperial fist, wich makes the model uber-no.

actually i think he's a lump of white metal. in fact he's not even a he. it is only what you invest into it with your imagination. there is no logical reason why you could not paint the actual Pedro Cantor model as a IW and place it on the table. and if there was an issue the model would get up and walk away itself.

willydstyle
16-09-2008, 14:44
actually i think he's a lump of white metal. in fact he's not even a he. it is only what you invest into it with your imagination. there is no logical reason why you could not paint the actual Pedro Cantor model as a IW and place it on the table. and if there was an issue the model would get up and walk away itself.



I don't like the chaos sorceror models, so I took Ezekiel, greenstuffed the book with the DA emblem on his front to look like it has the face of the Necronomicon Ex Mortis, and painted him in black legion colors. I also gave him swooping hawk wings. It's perfectly suitable to use a special character from another army if you can make it look right.

VariableBob
16-09-2008, 15:17
sorry is this aimed at me? or just using my post for the quote? 'cos i'm totally on your side.

i'm confuzzled! :wtf:

I suppose that was a bit unclear. The first bit was me agreeing with you. The second was a generic comment with no specific direction.

Hellebore
16-09-2008, 15:39
i would like to remind players (not necessarily you Hellebore, but your post makes for a concise quote) of a point that is so often forgotten. the only reason you associate the rules with a Wraithlord is because that is the background that is attached to them. if they were void of background, then you would have no issue at all with saying they could just as easily be a dinosaur with guns. this is true of absolutely every rule in 40k. background is not tacit to the rules.


Exactly. The rules are simply biased by association. Although some units do have combinations of rules that might make it hard(er) to justify as something else (a spawn being a normal run of the mill gretchin for example) the rules themselves are simply one person's idea of how to represent a CONCEPT in a tabletop game.

Just look at the way army lists have changed, how the core rules have changed.

Perhaps the best examples are the rules for units that, backgroundwise haven't changed, but their tabletop representation HAS.

Take the assault cannon. It still fires the same shells as it did in 3rd ed, at the same speed, to the same distance. Yet it's represented completely differently in 4th and onward. It gets an extra shot and the Rending special rule (which in itself has changed in 5th ed, creating 3 incarnations of the assault cannon post 2nd ed).
Or the new marine scouts with their WS/BS3. They are the same scouts with the same equipment yet it's fine for their representation to be changed for no other reason than GW decided to change them.

So if the same unit/item/vehicle can be legitimately represented by 3 seperate sets of rules, then there is no reason for anyone to stick to them either.

Consider also the outbox in the new marine codex about Ultramarine special characters and the others. It says it's perfectly fine to Counts As for other chapters, which are other armies to all intents and purposes.

Over the last few codicies GW have reduced the rigidity on the use of these little bundles of special rules. They provide a 'unit' and then a piece of flavour text regarding a famous example of said unit.

Eldrad and Yriel are just interesting unit variations, having them in the same army is no different to having Kantor and Korsarro Khan in the same army, because the army uses the RULES whilst the player 'uses' the background. Because background is completely independent of the rules (hence why it's fine to change the rules for an assault cannon, scout, wraithlord, chaplain et al despite creating NO change in the background to justify it) it doesn't matter WHAT it says.

So long as the army is composed of units from a single army list, how you choose to represent them on the tabletop is unimportant (staying within the basic 'core' rules of base size etc which are independent of the army lists).

Hellebore

The Song of Spears
16-09-2008, 18:23
just make sure you don't use the actuall pedro kantor model as he is a crimson fist, wich makes him an imperial fist, wich makes the model uber-no.

:chrome:

Nope, i use the Warmsith model (http://kofler.dot.at/40k/units/Iron_Warrior_Warsmith.gif)for Pedro. I just extended the barrel of the model you see there to make it a over sized bolter and i removed the servo arm for a more normal yet techy back pack. But I left the cool power claw on his left arm and added a IW logo on his backpack. It came out pretty good. I think i am going to try and get pics of the army up this week.

I was thinking about Alpha Legion. They often dress up in uniforms or armour like that of the imperium to fool visual scans and ambush their enemy. What models would they use from the SM codex to represent such a force, one that is intentionality mimicking the UM? i for some reason see a daemon prince hiding inside a dreadnought armour that has been hollowed out, to jack-in-the-box when the UM get near. :evilgrin: