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Xenobane
12-09-2008, 14:20
The question is: which 40k tabletop match-up occurs most commonly in the "real" 40k universe?

Let's discount Ork on Ork wars and Imperial civil clashes (and also Imperial forces vs Chaos cultists). I'd imagine that these make up most of the fighting, but they're not often reproduced on the tabletop.

With the disclaimer that I'm not background expert, the question seems to rule out Tau, Eldar, Space Marine and even Tyranid attacks, those races being too limited in their scope. With Imperial Guard and Orks by far the most populous races throughout the galaxy, that seems a decent contender.

To extend the question, what kind of proportion of Imperial wars galaxy-wide would be against Orks, Chaos, Tyranids etc? Do attacks/ wars on minor races make up a significant proportion? Any minor race in particular that is, according to the background, involved in a lot of fighting?

Any thoughts?

Clockwork-Knight
12-09-2008, 16:06
All wars with minor races added together do hurt the Imperium, especially because it has to take away troops from those war theaters to the more important and bigger wars against Chaos, the Orks, the Tyranids (yes, in the 41st millennium, they are an important factor), and the thousands of rebellions against the tyranny of the Imperium. Of course, this only leads to needing more troops much later on to reconquer the lost ground to the minor races.

They do cause much problem because right now, the Imperium can't deliver its mighty fleet and army to the warzones fast enough, according to the 5th edition rulebook, the very most important background relevant sourcebook for now. .

Firaxin
12-09-2008, 16:10
In terms of frequency:

#1: IG vs IG
#2: IG vs Orks
#3: IG vs Eldar
#4: IG vs Tyranids
#5: IG vs random, minor, inconsequential races
#6: IG vs Daemons
#7: IG vs Chaos Marines
#8: SM vs IG
#9: SM vs Orks
#10: SM vs Eldar
#11: SM vs Chaos Marines
#12: SM vs Daemons
#13: SM vs Tyranids
#14: SM vs minor, random, inconsequential races
#15: IG vs Necrons
#16: SM vs Necrons
#17: IG vs Tau
#18: SM vs Tau


In terms of SCALE, tyranids and eldar would switch places on the list, but that's about it.

Sai-Lauren
12-09-2008, 16:15
Agree - Guard/Orks is probably the most common that can be fought. Then maybe Ork warlord dominance fights, and possibly Chaos Warbands skirmishing with each other.

But the most common in the universe would probably be guard or pdf vs traitor/renegade/corrupted guard etc. And until we get pdf variants for the guard list, and proper LaTD, it ain't going to happen.

Of course, if you go by the tabletop, the most common should probably be the civil war in the smurf village ;)

Col.Gravis
12-09-2008, 16:46
I'd have to say Ork vs Guard, Orks are ever present greenskin hordes who luv a good bash, verses the largest organised military force in the galaxy

Inq. Veltane
12-09-2008, 17:16
I'll go with Firaxin's list for the most part, although I think the clashes with Eldar need to be moved down the list a fair bit. There is constant war between the Imperium and the Tyranids, with many worlds effected. Eldar on the other hand intervene in Imperial affairs quite rarely. There are probably more Space Marine clashes than Eldar ones. There are a thousand Space Marine Chapters, and each pretty much always has at least one war going on (if not several). The Eldar meanwhile have less than a hundred Craftworlds and there can be years when a particular craftworld does not need to commit to a strike. I just can't see each Craftworld seeing as much action as ten or more Marine chapters.

Xenobane
12-09-2008, 17:21
Firaxin's list looks pretty believable, but are there really no non-human match-ups in the top 18? Do Space Marines see so much action that they fight all their opponents more than, say, Eldar fight Chaos?

Grimbad
12-09-2008, 21:35
In order from most to least:
IG vs Orks
IG vs Minor alien races not featured in the tabletop
IG vs Eldar
IG vs Tyranids
Tyranids vs Orks
IG vs Dark Eldar
IG vs Necrons
IG vs Daemons vs Inquisition
Eldar vs Dark Eldar
Orks vs Eldar
Tyranids vs Eldar
Chaos marines vs anyone
Inquisition vs anyone
Space marines vs anyone

Raxmei
12-09-2008, 21:46
I'd put Orks vs Tyranids ahead of IG vs Tyranids. Orks cover more of the galaxy, especially as you get to the fringes. Tyranids will naturally hit more Orks than Imperials as they advance.

Ielnar
12-09-2008, 23:06
I'd actually guess that IG V Daemons is more common than IG v Chaos Marines because I can imagine groups of chaos cultists and one rogue psyker turning up more frequently than marines. Cults pop up as a reflex to Imperial opression while marines mostly hide out in the eye of terror with centuries between appearances.

Messiah
13-09-2008, 08:36
I'd put Orks vs Tyranids ahead of IG vs Tyranids. Orks cover more of the galaxy, especially as you get to the fringes. Tyranids will naturally hit more Orks than Imperials as they advance.

QFT.

I also dont think Eldar/Imperial matchups are as common as they seem in those lists.

Poseidal
13-09-2008, 09:02
It's stated in one book that the Eldar ally with the Imperium as much as battle them; also, it says that they intervene rarely.

I think SM vs IG would be even higher than either vs Eldar. Eldar vs. Orks may be higher than the average Eldar vs. X due to Biel-Tan's method.

Nicha11
13-09-2008, 09:41
Surely orks vs orks would happen the most:confused:

They live to fight and the background says there are uncounted numbers of them everywhere.

Also least likely battle would be Tyranids vs Crons.

matt_17
13-09-2008, 12:28
Where would Chaos v Chaos go? The Eye of Terror is in pretty much eternal conflict - there is no such thing as down time for a CSM. They may not be the biggest battles, but I would think they'd be among the most frequent.

Firaxin
13-09-2008, 13:06
I'll go with Firaxin's list for the most part, although I think the clashes with Eldar need to be moved down the list a fair bit. There is constant war between the Imperium and the Tyranids, with many worlds effected. Eldar on the other hand intervene in Imperial affairs quite rarely. There are probably more Space Marine clashes than Eldar ones. There are a thousand Space Marine Chapters, and each pretty much always has at least one war going on (if not several). The Eldar meanwhile have less than a hundred Craftworlds and there can be years when a particular craftworld does not need to commit to a strike. I just can't see each Craftworld seeing as much action as ten or more Marine chapters.

When I said Eldar, I included Dark Eldar and non-craftworld eldar. Eldar raids on shipping lanes and isolated worlds are preeetty common, I'd guess more common than SM engagements.


Firaxin's list looks pretty believable, but are there really no non-human match-ups in the top 18? Do Space Marines see so much action that they fight all their opponents more than, say, Eldar fight Chaos?

Oh, I was only looking at it from an imperial standpoint. Otherwise yeah, chaos vs chaos and orks vs orks and other such matchups would be much higher.


I'd actually guess that IG V Daemons is more common than IG v Chaos Marines because I can imagine groups of chaos cultists and one rogue psyker turning up more frequently than marines. Cults pop up as a reflex to Imperial opression while marines mostly hide out in the eye of terror with centuries between appearances.

This is true, as well as their tendency to manifest within Imperial Navy ships. So I switched IG vs Daemons is with IG vs Chaos Marines.

Lord Cook
13-09-2008, 23:12
Orks versus Imperial Guard. And rightly so! That's always a brilliant match up, whether in the fluff or on the table top.

imperial_scholar
14-09-2008, 02:02
IG Vs. Anything (IG being the biggest fighting force in the Universe)
SM Vs. Orks
SM Vs. Nids (SM's are usually needed to stop a Hive Fleet even then.. just barely)
SM Vs. Chaos (Another tough opponent)
Eldar Vs. Chaos (Just my opinion)
Eldar Vs. Dark Eldar
Eldar Vs. Nids
Dark Eldar Vs. IG (Slaves)
Tau Vs. The Imperium (IG & SM... more IG)
Tau Vs. Nids
Daemon Hunters Vs Daemons
Witch Hunters Vs. Chaos


I don't think IG verus Daemons would be that common as Demons mostly stick close to the Malestrom or the eye of terror. They need to stay close where their power base is strong.

Necrons are a sleep race, and I don't think necrons would appear in battle often if they can avoid it. Then again, I don't truly understand necrons.

Specific Marine Chapters:
Space Wolves Vs. Chaos
Dark Angels Vs. Chaos
Salamanders Vs. Eldar
Salamanders Vs. Orks
Ultramarines Vs. Nids
Ultramarines Vs. Orks
Black Templars Vs. Anything
Iron Fists Vs. Chaos
Crimsion Fists Vs. Orks

Firaxin
14-09-2008, 03:06
Dark Eldar Vs. IG (Slaves)
This happens pretty often. Navy ships get preyed upon by them all the time. I'd stick it up at #1, with IG vs everything.



Tau Vs. The Imperium (IG & SM... more IG)
Tau Vs. Nids
Daemon Hunters Vs Daemons
Witch Hunters Vs. Chaos
haha No. Witch Hunters fighting chaos would be happening on literally thousands of worlds every day. And daemon hunters have fought daemons far more times than the tau have engaged tyranids and the imperium combined. If you're including tau at all, the only race they deserve to be mentioned against is the orks, because against anything else they've just engaged it far too few times to even be in the top 50.



I don't think IG verus Daemons would be that common as Demons mostly stick close to the Malestrom or the eye of terror. They need to stay close where their power base is strong.
The warp is literally sitting there infront of your face, though you can't see it. Its not like the warp only exists at the Eye of Terror and the Malestrom. Possession of psykers, possession of crewmen on ships passing through the warp, summoning by cultists in the midsts of hive cities and agri-worlds, summoning by armies of traitor guard... daemons occur frighteningly often. When even the most backward agri-worlder knows what a daemon is and how dangerous it is, when half of the Imperium doesn't even know what a tyranid is, let alone a necron or a tau, well, that's got to tell you something.

djinn8
14-09-2008, 03:52
I think right at the very end of the list should be Tyranid vs Deamons - do they ever fight???

Hellebore
14-09-2008, 04:19
I think you'll find that Orks VS Orks is the most common. As they are the most common race in the galaxy and they are more than willing to fight themselves.

So:

Orks VS Orks
Orks VS Guard
Orks VS Tyranids
Orks VS Space Marines
Orks VS Chaos
Orks VS Eldar

Then

IG

and so on.

The orks are the most warlike and most prevalent force in the galaxy. Wherever they are, war follows.

Hellebore

DarkMatter2
14-09-2008, 06:17
Tau vs. Orks is relatively common actually...I don't know why people aren't listing that more often.

Also, I believe Imperials vs. Eldar of ANY kind is exceedingly rare- the Eldar are a dwindling race, and they seem to have little desire to actually all out attack the Imperium except on relatively rare occasions.

Chaplain Muller
14-09-2008, 07:09
I'd say as my top three:

IG vs Orks

IG vs Chaos

SM vs Orks

imperial_scholar
14-09-2008, 07:48
haha No. Witch Hunters fighting chaos would be happening on literally thousands of worlds every day. And daemon hunters have fought daemons far more times than the tau have engaged tyranids and the imperium combined. If you're including tau at all, the only race they deserve to be mentioned against is the orks, because against anything else they've just engaged it far too few times to even be in the top 50.
I think the Imperium views the Tau as a race they could wipe out. Whereas the nids, Daemons, and orks to be kinda a long war, the Tau could be wiped out with less effort. I think the Tau are waging a war on 3 fronts, the Imperium, the Hive mind and the orks. I could expand on the Tau since they have taken part in the eye of terror campaign and managed to score a planet... I could expand on that. The Tau are the grimy little underdog that can surprise you.



The warp is literally sitting there infront of your face, though you can't see it. Its not like the warp only exists at the Eye of Terror and the Malestrom.
That is true. But take down the 'anchor' and the Daemons are pretty much halted. When they attack from the Daemon world is when it gets more serious and becomes more than just 'support' for the Chaos armies. I really think that Daemons are also the boogy man, that's why everyone knows of them.. (Kinda). For Daemons to launch a serious military campaign, it needs to be launched near their power base.


I think right at the very end of the list should be Tyranid vs Deamons - do they ever fight???
I'm sure they do. The ork codex has that really cool story of the ork warlord or lead his Waaaaaaagh into the eye of terror to fight an eternal war on a blood covered planet. I'm sure they fight, but I'm also sure the hive mind would avoid them if possible. However, I haven't read anything myself to indicate they have fought.

I think you'll find that Orks VS Orks is the most common. As they are the most common race in the galaxy and they are more than willing to fight themselves.

I agree.. but we're suppose to discard that match up as the OP said ;).

Dictator
14-09-2008, 16:36
IG on top, fighting each other, renegade guard, orks, etc... They are always on the front. Being the largest organized fighting force in the entire galaxy.
Also, orks V. Nid's must be huge, yes? I do not know where to put them on the list but the octavian sector is basically all-out inexhaustable war between nids and orks. This only happened though because the imperium tricked 'nid forces into going into the octavian system (it was genuis).

Supremearchmarshal
14-09-2008, 17:29
Something I'd like to mention here is that the Imperial Guard is by no means the only human fighting force out there - what about all the planetary defence forces, hive gangs, pirates, rebels, cultists etc? All these fight a lot more often than the IG, though obviously on a much smaller scale.

Firaxin
14-09-2008, 18:28
I think the Imperium views the Tau as a race they could wipe out.
No less than I would view a flightless, soft-shelled, blind, revolting insect as a bug that I could wipe out. ;)



Whereas the nids, Daemons, and orks to be kinda a long war, the Tau could be wiped out with less effort. I think the Tau are waging a war on 3 fronts, the Imperium, the Hive mind and the orks. I could expand on the Tau since they have taken part in the eye of terror campaign and managed to score a planet... I could expand on that. The Tau are the grimy little underdog that can surprise you.
Actually, the tau are pretty much fighting on one front: against the orks. The Imperium is not currently fighting them, and AFAIK they've only engaged one tyranid fleet, which was still dormant after just coming out of warp space, so they destroyed it without the loss of a single ship.



That is true. But take down the 'anchor' and the Daemons are pretty much halted. When they attack from the Daemon world is when it gets more serious and becomes more than just 'support' for the Chaos armies. I really think that Daemons are also the boogy man, that's why everyone knows of them.. (Kinda). For Daemons to launch a serious military campaign, it needs to be launched near their power base.
True. But it doesn't have to be a full scale military campaign for it to count as a fight against a daemon, either.


Something I'd like to mention here is that the Imperial Guard is by no means the only human fighting force out there - what about all the planetary defence forces, hive gangs, pirates, rebels, cultists etc? All these fight a lot more often than the IG, though obviously on a much smaller scale.
On my list at least, "IG" referred to any non-SM human fighting for the Emperor, from navy crewmen to hivegangers protecting their city against 'nids.

=Angel=
14-09-2008, 20:36
Most common bustup?

Sister of Battle versus some guy who didn't genuflect correctly to a statue of the God Emperor.

'Oh blessed Imperator, we thank thee...'
(guy gets clubbed to the head with a bolter stock)
'It's Blessed, BENEFICIENT Imperator!!!11!'
'gaaah! ow...'
'Die Heathen!'
(Sister's squad breaks out the flamer on a crowd of people who don't look horrified enough at the guys error)

kikkoman
14-09-2008, 23:41
I just can't see each Craftworld seeing as much action as ten or more Marine chapters.


But there's also Eldar corsairs that constantly attack imperial space.

and the webway, when the Eldar do want to fight, they can get almost anywhere faster than anyone else.

Farseer's plans also means lots of set up conflicts to create desired results. They have the desire to fight, the reasons to fight, and most importantly, the means to get to the fight (webway)

DarkMatter2
15-09-2008, 00:26
Actually, the tau are pretty much fighting on one front: against the orks.

And even that front is starting to take a turn for the worse.

Victomorga
15-09-2008, 00:35
the sheer number of a given race would have great effect on their ability to find their way into combat.

the dark eldar may spend all their time hunting human slaves, but there aren't that many of them, so they won't end up fighting as often as the many forms of the IG. same goes for eldar corsairs, chaos marines, and tau.

the WH, DH, and SM branches of the imperium would see quite a bit of action, as they are all actively seeking out battle at all times.

I would think that humanity vs chaos in all its many forms would be the most common conflict, with chaotic uprisings being the most common. after that either humanity vs. orks or 'nids.

IJW
16-09-2008, 09:45
Surely orks vs orks would happen the most:confused:


Where would Chaos v Chaos go?

What they said, followed by Orks v. IG and Orks v. Tyranids (depending on how many Hive Fleets are on the way).

DarkMatter2
16-09-2008, 23:38
Orks vs. Tyranids is probably more common than Orks vs. IG.

GodofWarTx
17-09-2008, 02:50
I think right at the very end of the list should be Tyranid vs Deamons - do they ever fight???
the new demon codex has a good bit of artwork of a tyranid swarm going head to head with daemons, particularly a demon prince crushing a carnifex. So yes =)



Most common bustup?

Sister of Battle versus some guy who didn't genuflect correctly to a statue of the God Emperor.

'Oh blessed Imperator, we thank thee...'
(guy gets clubbed to the head with a bolter stock)
'It's Blessed, BENEFICIENT Imperator!!!11!'
'gaaah! ow...'
'Die Heathen!'
(Sister's squad breaks out the flamer on a crowd of people who don't look horrified enough at the guys error)

Codex : Sisters of Battle (2nd edition) mentions that the Imperium has so many different ways of worship of the emperor that its less important on HOW they worship him, by rather that they DO worship him. Some worlds which focus on mining see him as the torchlight that guides their way, others see him as a sun god that helps feed their crops with sunlight, and then you have death cultists who, well, worship with death. Sisters dont seem to mind that ;)

Im sure they have no problem burninating anyone who they think is corrupt though.

Dominus_Serui
17-09-2008, 03:01
Biel-Tan vs whatever-the-hell-is-in-the-way-of-their-plan-to-restore-the-eldar-empire...is more common than one might think...

Frankye
21-09-2008, 16:11
I think you'll find that Orks VS Orks is the most common. As they are the most common race in the galaxy and they are more than willing to fight themselves.

So:

Orks VS Orks
...

Besides, every ork vs anything else battle is also an ork vs ork battle before the engagement (because they're getting bored waiting), after the engagement (because that thievin deffskull git is takin all the loot and besides I'm bored and want to fight), and during the engagement (because some squads get tellyported way off the party and they're getting bored footlsoggin it to the fray).