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Anton
12-09-2008, 18:43
Can this spell be cast on targets without an initiative value, like a war machine? If so, what happens? Does the model automatically fail, and suffer the wounds?

Gazak Blacktoof
12-09-2008, 18:53
Yes it can and the model will automatically fail (see page 5 of the BRB- characteristic tests).

Anton
12-09-2008, 18:54
Thank you. :)

DeathlessDraich
13-09-2008, 10:35
This is slightly more debatable than it appears to be.
It all depends on
A) how you have assigned model status to the warmachine's 'machine' and
B) which type of warmachine.

For (A) - pg 84 is unclear whether the whole warmachine is 1 model or many. pg 85 suggests that the warmachine consists of many models since it is described as a 'unit'.

For (B) - Mork Wants ya has no effect on Stanks, Casket of souls (itself) probably, Anvil of Doom.

Gazak Blacktoof
13-09-2008, 11:23
The machine is a model with its own stat-line. The spell targets a model.

I'm not sure what you are trying to get at here. Unless I've missed something important you're trying to make this unnecessarily complex.

As far as I'm aware the steam tank is a perfectly valid target for the spell and will take damage- though I don't have an empire book to hand. The spell causes hits with a strength value and the tank automatically fails initiative tests.

Clearly targeting the anvil, casket or a cauldron of blood is a big fat waste of time as they are invulnerable to any damage.

feeder
13-09-2008, 15:18
Indeed, Mork Wants Ya! is a very effective way to deal with a Stank. Dropping big heavy rocks on it is another.

WLBjork
14-09-2008, 06:49
Check out Stank versus Pit Of Shades in the Empire FAQ.

Pit of Shades forces an I test, which is ingnored by the Stank.

Mork Wants Ya forces an I test, which is ignored by the Stank.

Faustburg
14-09-2008, 09:40
Pit of shades is ignored because it is a magic attack without a Strength, not because of the I test.

Does Mork Wants Ya have a Strenght-value? Then it affects the Stank...

T10
14-09-2008, 10:01
The Empire FAQ has established that the Pit of Shades has no effect on the Steam Tank because it has no Strength value. The Steam Tank is immune to spells that do not have a given Strength value, and the Pit of Shades ignores this immunity. Catch-22?

The tie-breaker is that the spell forces an Initiative test to avoid death, and though the Steam Tank should automatically fail this test, the ruling is that it doesn't have to test in the first place.

Why? Either because an Initiative test in itself doesn't involve a Strength value, or because the complete spell description of Pit of Shades do not give a Strength value at all.

Mork Wants Ya does include a Strength value, though, so it works fine. Ignore the dodgy ruling for Pit of Shades and you'll be fine.

-T10

WLBjork
16-09-2008, 05:37
Directly quoted from the FAQ:


As the Pit of Shades forces affected models to take an Initiative test, it is ignored by the Steam Tank.

So, Mork Wants Ya does not affect the Steam Tank.

T10
16-09-2008, 06:32
Why apply the Pit of Shades ruling as a precedent for Mork Wants Ya when none is needed? Mork Wants Ya is a spell that has a given Strength value. As such it can indeed affect the Steam Tank.

-T10

Braad
16-09-2008, 07:14
@ WLBjork

If you quote, quote everything, because now you pull a sentence right out of its context.

Complete FAQ quote:



A: No. Only spells with a given Strenght may affect the steam tank. As the pit of shades forces an Initiative test, it is ignored by the Steam Tank.


If you would only take the last sentence, you should read it like this:
"As the pit of shades forces only an initiative test and does not include a strenght test, it is ignored by the Steam Tank."

These two sentences are not two answers, the whole thing is one answer, so the strenght-part is very important.

Since Mork wants ya includes a Strenght value, it can kill Steam tanks.

WLBjork
16-09-2008, 17:38
2 sentences, 2 rules. Not 1 joined sentence that is one rule.

That is important.

Bac5665
16-09-2008, 19:16
2 sentences, 2 rules. Not 1 joined sentence that is one rule.

That is important.

The problem with that interpretation is that sentence 2 has no extractable rule without making assumptions. "as pit of shades forces an initiative test, it is ignored by the steam tank." That sentence has no basis in the rules at all. There is no reason whatsoever for the mere fact that PoS forces an initiative test to cause the steam tank to ignore it. If they had said "as pit of shades has no strenght value, it is ignored by the steam tank." that sentence would sinc with the rules.

Seperating sentence 2 from sentence 1 only adds confussion by implying (not even conclusivly stating) a conclusion that is against the rules. Reading them in context with eachother creates a less confusing rule that happens to also be in keeping with the rules.

When there are 2 interpretations that are equily valid gramatically, always go with the one that is the simplest, and overturns the fewest rules. Reading that FAQ as a whole does that much better.

Gazak Blacktoof
16-09-2008, 20:03
There isn't any need to even look at the FAQ or even consider it with the spell mork wants ya. There isn't any rules clarification needed.

Braad
16-09-2008, 20:45
2 sentences, 2 rules. Not 1 joined sentence that is one rule.

That is important.

To be honest, its not a rule at all. Its a FAQ. They explain about the rules. The rule is that a steam tank cannot be harmed by a spell without a Strenght value. So they explain that the pit of shades cannot harm a Stank because it doesn't have a strenght value, it only forces an initiative test, which is not enough for the spell to work on the Stank.
They just happen to explain it in 2 sentences.

Actually, its not even two sentences, its three... There is a punctuation mark behind the "no".

T10
16-09-2008, 21:53
Then we can disregard the "No" and infer from the rest of the answer a "Yes"!

Best FAQ ever!

-T10

xragg
16-09-2008, 22:19
Then we can disregard the "No" and infer from the rest of the answer a "Yes"!

Best FAQ ever!

-T10

I like the opposite of ignoring the second and third sentence. "No" is the best rule ever! Can my unit ....... No! What about my ....... No! Can I save versus ....... No! Is there any way I can win? No!

Braad
17-09-2008, 11:34
Another go...
Here, two answers to such a question:

A: No. Only spells with a given Strenght may affect the steam tank. As the pit of shades forces an Initiative test, it is ignored by the Steam Tank.

A: No. Only spells with a given Strenght may affect the steam tank because as the pit of shades just forces an Initiative test, it is ignored by the Steam Tank.

If you ask me, they both mean the same. They could have just written it down a bit better.
Why? Because it is the answer two a question, and not two rules written down.
The last sentence is just a description of what the spell does, not a newly introduced rule that Stanks also ignore any stuff that require an I-test...

@ xragg
You made me laugh :)
However, if the opponent ask "Is there any way I can lose?" then you might get troubles with that...

DeathlessDraich
17-09-2008, 13:37
The tie-breaker is that the spell forces an Initiative test to avoid death, and though the Steam Tank should automatically fail this test, the ruling is that it doesn't have to test in the first place.
-T10

Yes, more or less, I can see you undertand the problem.
However, the Stank rules suggests this and then the FAQ reinforces the uncertainty.



Complete FAQ quote:



If you would only take the last sentence, you should read it like this:
"As the pit of shades forces only an initiative test and does not include a strenght test, it is ignored by the Steam Tank."
.

There are 2 ways of reading that sentence. In addition the Stank rules has an inherent uncertainty. More below**


The machine is a model with its own stat-line. The spell targets a model.

I'm not sure what you are trying to get at here. Unless I've missed something important you're trying to make this unnecessarily complex.

As far as I'm aware the steam tank is a perfectly valid target for the spell and will take damage- though I don't have an empire book to hand. The spell causes hits with a strength value and the tank automatically fails initiative tests.
.

As you can see above, there is sufficient grounds for debate here.

1) The Stank tules mentions that it is affected by spells with a "given strength". What that exactly means is unclear but it is widely accepted that a common magic missile will affect the Stank.

2) The next phrase creates the uncertainty - "*all* other spell effects are ignored".
'All' - every single other effect *must* be ignored.

3) a) What happens then if the *strength effect* *only occurs if another effect is fulfilled first*?
b) What in the first place is a spell effect?
c) If a characteristic test is not deemed to be a 'spell effect' then spells which incur only a characteristic test has no effect?

There are no answers to these questions since the rules do not explain 'spell effect'.
It is however reasonable to *assume* that the 'spell effect', in this case is the consequence of the Initiative test.

d) What happens as well when the Steam Tank has to take an Initiative test from a magical spell without a Strength value?
Does the test auto fail but the spell is ignored or
no test is taken?

All this should have been clarified by the FAQ but it does not.

The FAQ adds to the confusion with this sentence:

"As the Pit of Shades forces affected models to take an Initiative test, it is ignored by the Steam Tank. "

"as" is consequential i.e. Pit of Shades is ignored because the Stank is forced to take an Initiative test.

This leads to the belief that the Stank ignores Initiative tests which are magically induced.

If the intended reason had nothing to do with Initiative tests, the FAQ should have been worded like this:

"As Pit of Shades has no Strength value, it is ignored by the Stank"
The sentence above should

DeathlessDraich
17-09-2008, 13:41
Back to the original question:


The machine is a model with its own stat-line. The spell targets a model.
.

And that is the basic problem with warmachines.
IIRC it was Festus who pointed this out to me back in 6th ed.

The rules do not clearly specify whether the warmachine is 1 model or several.
It only clearly states that the crew becomes several models when they are separated from the 'machine'.

Avian
17-09-2008, 13:55
Have you actually read the rules? Such as the desctiption of war machines on page 7?

Gazak Blacktoof
17-09-2008, 14:43
The initiative test in mork wants ya isn't an effect the hits are an effect. In pit of shades models are swallowed whole and simply removed- the effect is destruction with no associated strength value- the steam tank rules tell you to ignore this.

Ignore the FAQ its got nowt to do with mork wants ya, it simply reinforces the point that pit of shades doesn't work on the tank which you can already discern if you read the steam tank rules and the rules for pit of shades. The FAQ doesn't add any rules and the tank's rules don't allow it to ignore mork wants ya.



Like Avian said, read page 7.

You are making this more complex than it needs to be.


EDIT: I 'd also like to add that what counts as a war machine is irrelevant to whether a stone thrower, cannon, mortar, etc can be targeted by mork wants ya. The spell targets a model within a unit. Is a stone thrower, cannon, mortar, etc a model? Yes it is. Does it have an initiative value of zero? Yes it does. Therefore it can be targeted and it takes the hits automatically.

The model type is entirely irrelevant.

w3rm
06-10-2008, 23:48
yup war machines are a great taget for this spell. hehehe doncha luv str 10 hits! also great vs chariot no I and one whound with str 7 or more and their toast!

Harwammer
07-10-2008, 00:33
Boils down to this, are people trying to say because of the pit of shades ruling, by extension, giants can't thump with club steam tanks?