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TheRedAngel
12-09-2008, 21:25
Hi there!
Recently there has been a lot of new information which contradicts the fluff I know (or at least I thought I knew).
The part I would like to address in this thread is about the legions, their primarchs and especially their relationships.
While we all knew that certain primarchs just didn't got along, Dorn-Perturabo and Lion-Russ come to mind, and this of course had influence on their legions, recent publications (read: HH novels) do indicate that there was a bit more bad carma around than (at least I) expected.
Space Wolves vs Thousand Sons (before Prospero), Ultra Marines vs Word Bearers, Lunar Wolves vs Death Guard, etc.

While there were also true friendship and camaraderie (and some surprises: Alpharius not caring about Roboute) there seems to have been a lot of tension between a lot of the legions.
Not a good thing to have within your fighting forces. Could that have been one of the major reasons for the heresy? The chance of setting old scores? Not caring or even just hate for ones brother marine?
Did nobody in the young Imperium care about this development? To stop this division of the marines?
And was it always like this or is this new/retcon fluff for most of you too?
Thanks for your opinions.


PS Sorry for the poor English. I try to write sensible sentences but usually end up just raping the language.

PondaNagura
12-09-2008, 21:42
it's a mix of sibling rivalry and the hubris that the primarchs held themselves at.
they were thought to be demi-gods, were revered as such by 'mortal' men, and so developed this superiority complex, which is a good thing for genetically engineered super beings whose sole purpose is a warlord.

mortal men could barely hold their own in the presence of the primarchs, let alone have th e'audicity' to scold them for not getting along.
the Emperor, was so sure and had put complete faith in his sons, that he would never have thought them to fall so far.

as for legion vs legion, well they each had their own traditions and scope on how warfare ought to be fought. a mix of their bias, and their own complexes are what drove them to be more than rivalry. like comparing the emperor's children 9the name alone would bolster their ego) vs the world eaters, who while they have martial pride, were veiwed as barbaric for the need to alter their psyche for battle.

Khaine's Messenger
12-09-2008, 22:08
Did nobody in the young Imperium care about this development? To stop this division of the marines?

Many viewed it as "brothers being brothers." There was a sense that any external threat would cause ranks to close and differences to be put aside (or coming to accept these differences as valid). This has been cited as another contributing factor of the Heresy--that the Great Crusade was coming to an end, there were fewer and fewer new enemies to fight, the Imperium was starting to turn its focus inward, and it did not like what it saw. Astelan tried to suggest this in Angels of Darkness when describing the spark that had been lost by the post-Heresy Imperium. The "Great Crusade" was a state of mind, a pushing outward from a foundation of inner organization.

There were, however, problems that were presented as unsolvable or intractable. Which was where the "boys will be boys" argument fails utterly or becomes self-parody when it is suggested that the Emperor exacerbated the divides. The Word Bearers and the Ultramarines being a case in point, really.


And was it always like this or is this new/retcon fluff for most of you too?

For me? No. The IA articles where a lot of these rivalries were presented were some of my first extensive readings on the topic. I've skimmed some earlier edition stuff, but most of that seems to focus on the Heresy as being caused by Politics (Horus and the nigh-feudal rights of the Primarchs vs. the High Lords and the idea of serving humanity) or Chaos. Interpersonal rivalries are more icing on the cake.

Feor
12-09-2008, 23:27
To a certain extent these were actually encouraged subvertly by the Emperor. Dorn-Peturbo was a natural rivalry to develop, the best siege-masters in the galaxy vs. the best garrison troops one could hope for. Playing them off each other was natural, whatever defenses Dorn developed, Peturbo felt obligated to find a way to overcome. As such, both legions become better by pushing themselves to outdo the other. Same with the World Eaters and the Blood Angels trying to be the best close combat force. Unfortunatly, no one explained this to the Primarchs. And the ones that couldn't figure it out on their own started to feel a little too competitive with each other.

DapperAnarchist
13-09-2008, 14:59
Its also an element of what are you going to do, not use your most powerful and greatest warriors?

The Anarchist
13-09-2008, 17:29
i alwasy see this as typical of siblings, and so a very obvious outcome of the fraternity of primarchs. whilst some of the primarch rivalry was encouraged as stated above with examples. get 20 brothers of very similar ages and then give them a task, each to do it in their own style....its gaurnteed to create differnces of opinion and rivalry. even the msot inteligent person can feel a rivalry and rise to the bait at times, even when they know their being bated.

as for the bad karma, well 18 warriors, job to go kill and conquer, i guess getting them in the same room feels like bad karma, even if it is jsut excess blood thirst.

I've seen the HH books as more of a direct view first hand of the differnt views of the time and the indivduals involved. so the 40K fluff views it differntly, i mean imagine how differnt the views of christ in 40AD, to the view we have now, only 1965 years on from the event.

jsut my two cents.

MrBigMr
13-09-2008, 18:06
They probably should have just dropped their pants and get out a ruler. Should have solved plenty of their problems.

EDIT: Ah, found it. This pic just makes me go "Aawwww..."

Eulenspiegel
13-09-2008, 18:40
Very interesting post, Redangel.

This sibling rivalry may not have been the cause for the Heresy, I´m certain of that, but it certainly helped the Primarchs in corrupting their legion.
As it is, even the most friendly Chapters / Legions (I´m reading Red Thirst as of now; Blood Angels and their successors ... oh boy ...) had at least a friendly rivalry.
This can be turned into competitive rivalry rather easy, as the normal battle brothers don´t have access to a news channel or the internet ;). They believe what their captains or chapter/legion gossip says.

The Caliban Lion
13-09-2008, 19:06
Space Wolves vs Thousand Sons (before Prospero), Ultra Marines vs Word Bearers, Lunar Wolves vs Death Guard, etc.

Huh? :eyebrows:

When did this happen? I can't remember reading anything about it, and Luna Wolves vs Death Guard really surprises me.

Eulenspiegel
13-09-2008, 19:13
The SW / TS animosity was a device in the Battle for the Abyss.
Between the UM and WB there was no inherent enemity, though. They just fought (well, started fighting) in the novel.

LW / DG I can´t remember myself ...

Edit:
Come on, whenever in the HH books two legions meet, there is at first "well met, brothers", then almost immediately "... but we´re better than you!" or outright "... you stink but we won´t tell you to your face!".

E.g. when Lokken shoves Lucius´ nose some inches to the left immediately after meeting him first, or when the Ultramarines roll their eyes after realizing they have to go into the Space Wolves´ quarters, or when ...
There´s usually one or two from the Legion they like, and the rest are tits (in their eyes).

Lord Zarkov
13-09-2008, 20:37
The SW vs TS has practiaclly always been around as Russ distrusted Magnus' sorcery, there was a reason Russ was only too keen to destroy the TS. There's even a special rule in the SW codex that represents this hatred

TheRedAngel
13-09-2008, 21:36
When did this happen? I can't remember reading anything about it, and Luna Wolves vs Death Guard really surprises me.
In the HH trilogy there is one scene (on second thought I did confuse the LW with the Emperors Children) where they assault an outpost together, Garro (?) gets wounded and the Apothecarius trying to help him is send away rather roughly in my opinion.
But you are right, wrong legion.


Between the UM and WB there was no inherent enemity, though. They just fought (well, started fighting) in the novel.I was kinda surprised how the UM reacted upon reaching the Abyss.
(Probably bad) example: After finding my cars front window smashed by a brick I meet my best friend at the end of a trail in the snow (winter) that I followed from the site of crime.
Do it punch him in the face as a first reaction? Do I start pushing him around? Do I start screaming at him?
No, I wonder whether I trailed the wrong steps in the snow or I may ask him whether he saw what happened.
When I come about a friendly ship that (probably) passed the place where a ship of my legion was destroyed, do I threaten them? Do I start making demands? Do I prepare to board them?
I would ask them what happened, if they are pursuing the perpetrator, of if they just passed the place by coincidence and had no idea at all.
At least when I consider this legion my ally, not my enemy.

There's even a special rule in the SW codex that represents this hatredBut that applies for todays SW, after and because of Prospero.

Feor
14-09-2008, 01:32
I was kinda surprised how the UM reacted upon reaching the Abyss...
I would ask them what happened, if they are pursuing the perpetrator, of if they just passed the place by coincidence and had no idea at all.
At least when I consider this legion my ally, not my enemy.

That's what they did, they hailed the Abyss several times, figured the ship's longer ranged Comms might be malfunctioning, and sent in an escort to take a closer look. (and the TS Strike Cruiser followed in on it's captain's hunch/vision) When the ships got close enough to make short range contact, the Abyss blew both the Escort and the Strike Cruiser out of the void.


But that applies for todays SW, after and because of Prospero.
No, from everything I've read the Wolves never really liked or trusted the Thousand Sons because of their sorcerrous powers. That's why Russ was sent to bring them to justice, The Emperor knew there's be no mercy granted by Russ to Magnus. The HH books just clears up that without Horus' intervention "no mercy" would have been dragged back in Chains, vs attempted to kill to a man.

imperial_scholar
14-09-2008, 01:40
or when the Ultramarines roll their eyes after realizing they have to go into the Space Wolves´ quarters, or when ...

Which book was this :D

Chaplain Muller
14-09-2008, 07:16
No, from everything I've read the Wolves never really liked or trusted the Thousand Sons because of their sorcerrous powers. That's why Russ was sent to bring them to justice.

Russ disliked Magnus because he staunchly believed the only way wars could be won was by strength and courage, not through cowardly(in Russ's eyes;) measures like deceit and tricking the enemy.

Eulenspiegel
14-09-2008, 15:28
Which book was this :D

Battle For The Abyss:

Tannhaut pointed a quivering finger towards the arched entrance of a muster hall. A stylised rendering of a lupine head was etched into a stone panel beside it.

Cestus frowned when he saw it, knowing full well who else was on the space port with them at that time.

"The sons of Russ."

Antiges groaned inwardly.

"Guilliman give us strength," he said, and the two Ultramarines strode off into the direction of the muster hall, (...)