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Gharof von Carstein
14-09-2008, 07:45
Vamp lord
Forbidden lore (beasts), dread knight, walking death, summon ghouls, +mag lvl
Book of Arkhan, crown of the damned, helm of commandment

= 455p

Vamp
BSB, drakenhof banner, summon ghouls, dark acolyte
= 270p

vamp
Dark acolyte, summon ghouls, flayed hauberk, black periapt, biting blade
= 190


Core,

Ghouls x 14 +ghast = 120p
Ghouls x 14 +ghast = 120p
Ghouls x 14 +ghast = 120p

Special
Grave Guard x20 +GW, banner of the strigoi, f/c = 325p

Rare
Blood knights x5, Banner of bloodfang keep, f/c = 400p

total = 2000p

self explanatory, tarpit and kill with knights. add the lord to the knights and watch the fun :D. the beasts lore works as a extra vanhels for the knights with the wolf hunts, it has powerfull magic missile attacks and the bears anger turns my vampires into murderous monsters well...even more so

Gokamok
14-09-2008, 10:52
First of all, there is the issue with Blood Knights being frenzied, which means you're risking to have your 855 point unit chase fast cavalry around the table for the whole game. If you believe that you can counter baiting tactics, then it probably won't be too much of a problem, but I would suggest keeping the lord with your infantry instead.

I would suggest taking Vampiric lore on your general over beasts, since you can't really be sure to either get or cast Vanhels on your other 2 vamps.

The combination of Walking Death and HoC on your general is a bit odd... Maybe take Supernatural Horror instead to get a terror-causer? However, if you stick the Lord and BSB with your GG, they'll probably beat most things in 1 round of combat anyway :D

Your BSB really, really needs more protection than just T4 and regen. I would replace Dark Acolyte with Dread Knight in order to keep him alive, or alternately replace summon Ghouls with Avatar of Death (HWS).

Shamfrit
14-09-2008, 11:15
You're going to have some serious, serious trouble against Daemons, and I mean a whole new level of trouble beyond what they normally cause.

Even if you've a 4+ ward against the Flamer's actual ranged attack, anything worth it's salt will sweep your Knights aside to the flank with flaming attacks- and your Graveguard are going to severely suffer at the hands of Master of Sorcery due to the easy access to fire magic.

More troops - this list worked for a few months but it's not worth it's salt now.

Gharof von Carstein
14-09-2008, 13:18
thing is i wanted to try something different. iv been using this list:

Lord
vamp lord: forbidden lore,+magic level, master of the black arts, summon ghouls, black periapt, book of arkhan, walachs bloody hauberk =
450p

Heroes
Vamp: summon ghouls, dark acolyte, helm of commandment = 175p
Vamp: summon ghouls, ghoulkin, rod of flaming death= 180p
Necromancer: dispell scroll, dispell scroll = 105p

Core
Ghouls x15 + Ghast = 128p
Ghouls x15 + Ghast = 128p
Ghouls x14 + Ghast = 120p
Ghouls x10 + Ghast = 88p
Corpse Cart + lodestone = 100p
Dire wolves x5 = 40p

Special
Fell bats x 3 = 60p

Rare
Varghulf = 175p
Cairn Wraiths x5 = 250p

total = 1999p

11PD-7DD

thing is this got totalled the other day. now i dont know what to change about it. i was thinking perhaps more PD and dropping the wraiths for something. the ghouls are too fragile 2, the varghulf got owned the second it saw combat...

Shamfrit
14-09-2008, 13:23
Definately drop the Wraiths, and get some Zombies/Skeletons to back up the Ghouls.

There is too much magic about for Ethereal to function as well these days.

Gharof von Carstein
14-09-2008, 15:00
Hows this?

Lord
vamp lord: forbidden lore,+magic level, master of the black arts, summon ghouls, book of arkhan, walachs bloody hauberk =
435p

Heroes
Vamp: summon ghouls, dark acolyte, helm of commandment, black periapt = 175p
Vamp: summon ghouls, ghoulkin, talisman of the lycni= 150p
Vamp: Summon ghouls, dark acolyte, dispell scroll = 170p

Core
Ghouls x15 + Ghast = 128p
Ghouls x15 + Ghast = 128p
Ghouls x15 + Ghast = 128p
Corpse Cart + lodestone = 100p
Dire wolves x5 = 40p

Special
Grave Guard x20 + GW, F/C, banner of the barrows = 335p
Black knights x5 + f/c, banner of the dead legion, barding = 210p


total = 1999p

13PD-7DD

i could even swap out the grave guard for two varghulf if i drop the talisman and a ghoul.

Shamfrit
14-09-2008, 15:09
*Thumbs up.*

Gharof von Carstein
14-09-2008, 19:28
Wanted to add a BSB which worked out great. :) took the barding off dropped some armour on my lord and the worthless talisman of the lycni.

Lord
vamp lord: forbidden lore,+magic level, master of the black arts, summon ghouls, book of arkhan, flayed hauberk = 415p

Heroes
Vamp: summon ghouls, dark acolyte, helm of commandment, black periapt = 175p
Vamp: summon ghouls, ghoulkin,BSB, drakenhof banner = 300p
Vamp: Summon ghouls, dark acolyte, dispell scroll = 170p

Core
Ghouls x15 + Ghast = 128p
Ghouls x15 + Ghast = 128p
Ghouls x15 + Ghast = 128p
Dire wolves x5 = 40p

Special
Grave Guard x20 + GW, F/C, banner of the barrows = 335p
Black knights x5 + f/c, banner of the dead legion = 190p


total = 1999p

13PD-7DD

Gokamok
14-09-2008, 20:49
Wanted to add a BSB which worked out great. :) took the barding off dropped some armour on my lord and the worthless talisman of the lycni.

Lord
vamp lord: forbidden lore,+magic level, master of the black arts, summon ghouls, book of arkhan, flayed hauberk = 415p

Heroes
Vamp: summon ghouls, dark acolyte, helm of commandment, black periapt = 175p
Vamp: summon ghouls, ghoulkin,BSB, drakenhof banner = 300p
Vamp: Summon ghouls, dark acolyte, dispell scroll = 170p

Core
Ghouls x15 + Ghast = 128p
Ghouls x15 + Ghast = 128p
Ghouls x15 + Ghast = 128p
Dire wolves x5 = 40p

Special
Grave Guard x20 + GW, F/C, banner of the barrows = 335p
Black knights x5 + f/c, banner of the dead legion = 190p


total = 1999p

13PD-7DD

I still think that you should put some armor on your BSB, gogo Dread Knight;)

I think that barding is a must-have upgrade for Black Knights. With 3+ AS they're far too vulnerable to shooting, spells and prolonged combat. Imo, just drop a few Ghouls to pay for the barding.

I might be slightly paranoid here, but you could consider getting some kind of protection against killing blow on your lord. Gem of Blood would be nice against suicidal KB troops trying to assassinate the chief:D

Shamfrit
14-09-2008, 20:55
Cadaverous Cuiriass would suffice far better.

Gokamok
14-09-2008, 21:51
Cadaverous Cuiriass would suffice far better.

Yeah, I thought about that option as well, since it would probably work quite well alongside the regen banner. Only problem would be basically giving up on AS, which would leave the general very vulnerable to flaming attacks...

Cuirass+Cursed Book maybe?

Shamfrit
14-09-2008, 22:20
Cuirass+Cursed Book maybe?

It's my personal preference to not rely upon 'One Use' items too much, not even the spectacular ones like the Hail of Doom Arrow (the only exception to that would be the Cube of Darkness.) The issue I've heard many Vampire Counts players drone on about is protecting their Lord. The solution is to reduce your offensive/casting capabilities very slightly and 'armour up.' You have a multitude of options available, from a 3+ ranged ward to a 4+ ward and 2+ save with a downside (Stupidity on LD 10 should not be a deterrent at all.)

If you're scared of Killing Blow and Poison (and who wouldn't be?) then the Cuiriass is essential. It's base save of 5+ leaves alot to be desired, however, if you invest in a Nightmare and the Enchanted Shield and don't spend any points on a magic weapon (maybe The Balefire Spike since you're now mounted) you can then take the Crown of the Damned for a 2+/4+ and that will leave you with 100 points of Vampire Powers to boost the area you're lacking in according to your army list...so magic or combat etc.

The Nightmare/Shield/Cuiriass/Crown/Spike combo is one I'm running at the minute, with Acolyte, Lord of the Dead and (alternating between Master of the Black Arts and Infinite Hatred/Walking Death) backing that up. It leaves you with a very well rounded General.

Gharof von Carstein
16-09-2008, 04:58
which still puts me in the position that i have to account for this point wise. and thats the needle in my side. ill try to figure it out and get back to you guys.

great input do! thx!

Gharof von Carstein
16-09-2008, 10:04
but narroq, your lord is illegal. enchanted shield counts as armor, so does the cuirras. from what i understand you cant have 2 pieces of armor on a single character. its just illegal.

another thing, iv been going over my points and i cant see how i can fit in the suggestions you guys made, they total over 100 points which i cant cut out without seriously gimping my core units.

Malorian
16-09-2008, 17:39
You're right, you can't have two magical armors.

You're lord is confussed. You have him set up as a summoner of ghouls and he has forbidden lore. I'd drop the forbidden lore and go the summoner route. Then you'll have room to move ghoul kin to your lord.

When you are summoning it is better to have 3 dice working on a 4+ then 2 dice working on a 3+. So if the lord is the summoner (and thus using the pool dice) I'd set up the vampires with master of the black arts. They will only be able to raise if the unit is under 15, but that isn't a problem. Just raise with them first and then top up with the lord or use the vampires on other units.

The vampire is too fragile to be a BSB. Even with the 4+ ward from the banner it's just too easy of a target. Either go with a wightking bsb or a dreadknight bsb.

You don't have a bunker (unless it's a wolve bunker...) so all your weak vampires are in the front line. If the wolves are a bunker I'd get a few more, and if not I'd drop them to get a ghoul bunker.

I really don't like great weapons on grave guard. If you have a lot of corpse carts and the staff of damnation it can be worth it, but otherwise you are better off going for the static combat res. Then change the banner to the warbanner for that extra +1 CR. I know the 'death star' is fun but your opponent will either kill your bsb, bait and hit the flank, or ignore it completely while they focus on the rest of your army.

Full command on the knights is a bit of a waste in such a small unit. I'd drop all of it.

Gharof von Carstein
16-09-2008, 18:51
well thx for the advice. now im completly lost. first i tried to go for a army of heavy hitters (or turning them into heavy hitters) than go back to magic heavy raising and now im stuck on the line again. my army just doesnt know what it wants, me included.. :S

Malorian
17-09-2008, 03:44
Just go magic heavy but then step it back to be hard hitting to.

Here are your characters:

Lvl 3 Vampire lord w/ master of the black arts, summon ghouls, dreadknight, staff of damnation, helm of commandment, gem of blood.

BSB Vampire w/ dark acolyte, avatar of death(shield), book of arkan
Vampire w/ dark acolyte, avatar of death(shield), hand of dust
Vampire w/ dark acolyte, avatar of death(shield), 2X dispel scroll

This has a fair amount of magic (13PD) and yet all of your characters are ready to fight.

Gharof von Carstein
17-09-2008, 11:06
thx to malorians advice i came up with this. its overall pretty tough if you ask me.

Lvl 3 Vampire lord w/ master of the black arts, summon ghouls, dreadknight, staff of damnation, helm of commandment, gem of blood. extra magic level.
= 440p

Vampire w/ dark acolyte, avatar of death(shield), book of arkan = 185p
Vampire w/ dark acolyte, avatar of death(shield), rod of flaming death = 190p
Vampire w/ dark acolyte, avatar of death(shield), 2X dispel scroll = 200p

Ghouls x15 + ghast = 128p
Ghouls x15 + ghast = 128p
Ghouls x13 + ghast = 112p
Ghouls x10 + ghast = 88p

Cairn Wraith x 6 = 300p

Black knights x6 full command. banner of the dead legion, barding = 229p

2000p total

13PD - 7DD / 3 Bound

Malorian
17-09-2008, 14:45
The vampire lord would be lvl 3. You need dark acolyte to be lvl 4.

Other than the banner I find the command on the black knights to be a waste.

There is probably also no need to have a ghast in your bunker, or really the bunker at all. With all your characters being set up for combat they have nothing to worry from the average mage hunters.

You might get better use of fell bats to hunt warmachines or a corpse cart for extra magic and combat power. (Go ASF ghouls!!!) Or you could increase the size of the main ghoul units so you can safely make them 7 wide. Then they will hit hard for sure ; )

Gharof von Carstein
17-09-2008, 17:02
good advice yet again. i know am faced with 3 options. the below part of the list is set with the 3 options at the bottom. which is best? id like to hear what you guys think.

Lvl 3 Vampire lord w/ master of the black arts, summon ghouls, dreadknight, staff of damnation, helm of commandment, gem of blood. extra magic level.
= 440p

Vampire w/ dark acolyte, avatar of death(shield), book of arkan = 185p
Vampire w/ dark acolyte, avatar of death(shield), rod of flaming death = 190p
Vampire w/ dark acolyte, avatar of death(shield), 2X dispel scroll = 200p

Ghouls x15 + ghast = 128p
Ghouls x15 + ghast = 128p
Ghouls x13 + ghast = 112p

Cairn Wraith x 6 = 300p

Black knights x6 +bannerwearer. banner of the dead legion, barding = 209p

13PD - 7DD / 3 Bound
1892p total - 108 points left

option 1:

Corpse cart with lodestone and +1 ghoul on the 13 strong unit
this option is good, i can increase starting size fast and thus add ranks and make my units wider. total score = 2000

option 2:

Increase ghoul units to 21 and make them 7 wide with the 13 unit going to 20.
more ghouls hitting is a good thing, might hurt my combat resolution do. total score = 1997

option 3:

fell bat unit of 3 plus a unit of dire wolves of 5 plus a extra ghoul.
machine hunt capability along with fast attackers than can easily flank and thus negate opponents ranks. the units sizes can of course vary (just 5 fell bats and a ghoul or 2 units of dire wolves of 5 with 3 ghouls etc) 1996-2000 total score.

either sounds good to me. of course it varies with the armys you play against. i play a lot of orcs, empire, vampire counts and whatever else people bring the 3 armys mentioned are the top armies do. so what do you guys suggest?

Malorian
17-09-2008, 17:39
My vote is for option 2.

Lord Dan
17-09-2008, 23:00
Wraiths in games 2,000 points or less = bad

Wraiths in games more than 2,000 points = priceless

You're spending too many points on... everything. Set up the army and look at it. If you can fit it on a dinner plate, you need to rework a few things.

Remember, just because you CAN spend up to 200 points upgrading your lord doesn't mean you HAVE to spend 200 points upgrading your lord. Right now he's 1/4 your army, and will be hard pressed to make up those points in a 2,000 point game.

Anyway, I'm with Malorian and option 2.

Gharof von Carstein
19-09-2008, 08:54
atm im going for option 2 and the new option. so my lists will look like this.

This is my first option, bigger ghoul units 7 wide. with the third one 6 wide. dropped a bound item for the flexibility of the black periapt. having a 8th DD or a 14PD that my lord can utilize for more adding fits the flavour of the army better than a shooty staff.

Lvl 3 Vampire lord w/ master of the black arts, summon ghouls, dreadknight, staff of damnation, helm of commandment, gem of blood, extra magic level.
= 440p

Vampire w/ dark acolyte, avatar of death(shield), book of arkan = 185p
Vampire w/ dark acolyte, avatar of death(shield), black periapt, biting blade = 170p
Vampire w/ dark acolyte, avatar of death(shield), 2X dispel scroll = 200p

Ghouls x21 + ghast = 176p
Ghouls x21 + ghast = 176p
Ghouls x17 + ghast = 144p

Cairn Wraith x 6 = 300p

Black knights x6 +bannerwearer. banner of the dead legion, barding = 209p

13PD - 7DD / 2 Bound

total score = 2000p

and my second option. adding the varghulf to help the wraiths march and get a nasty warmachine/wizard hunter with combat support units that are biting off more than they can chew due to numbers. add this in the charge with wraiths and you get a deadly assault that terrors the opponent away. i dropped both the dispel scrolls but dropped a bound item to throw the black periapt in there. this way ill be able to get 8 DD and 14PD alternatively.

Lvl 3 Vampire lord w/ master of the black arts, summon ghouls, dreadknight, staff of damnation, helm of commandment. extra magic level.
gem of blood = 440p

Vampire w/ dark acolyte, avatar of death(shield), book of arkan = 185p
Vampire w/ dark acolyte, avatar of death(shield), black periapt = 165p
Vampire w/ dark acolyte, avatar of death(shield) = 150p

Ghouls x15 + ghast = 128p
Ghouls x15 + ghast = 128p
Ghouls x14 + ghast = 120p

Cairn Wraith x 6 = 300p

Varghulf = 175p

Black knights x6 +bannerwearer. banner of the dead legion, barding = 209p

13PD - 7DD / 2 Bound

total score = 2000p

ill be alternating these 2 lists from each other to see which is best for me. in the second list ill probably be fielding the wraiths on a flank with the varghulf and keep the ghouls netted together with my vampires. this way i might be able to sweep up my opponents army from one side while keeping pressure on his main force. a sort of hammer and anvil tactic. id like to keep the wraith unit 6 strong but if i feel i need more dispell ill be throwing one out for 2 dispell scrolls.

Gharof von Carstein
29-09-2008, 13:55
Lvl 3 Vampire lord w/ master of the black arts, summon ghouls, dreadknight, staff of damnation, helm of commandment, gem of blood, extra magic level.
= 440p

Vampire w/ dark acolyte, avatar of death(shield), book of arkan = 185p
Vampire w/ dark acolyte, avatar of death(shield), black periapt, biting blade = 170p
Vampire w/ dark acolyte, avatar of death(shield), 2X dispel scroll = 200p

Ghouls x21 + ghast = 176p
Ghouls x21 + ghast = 176p
Ghouls x17 + ghast = 144p

Cairn Wraith x 6 = 300p

Black knights x6 +bannerwearer. banner of the dead legion, barding = 209p

13PD - 7DD / 2 Bound

total score = 2000p


i used this exact list in a game the other day against O&G. i gained a massacre on him due to him giving up, but counting points it was a solid victory anyway. this due to the fact the vampires and very wide ghoul units worked extremely well. the only thing that was not working well was the wraiths... they were actually a extreme letdown, even against a low magic army like orcs and goblins. so iv decided to cut them out of the list. iv had 4 games with them so far with them being among the first casualties every game. another thing was, although my opponent was using 3 orc shamans and was magic wise oke, i didnt need my dispell scrolls even once. so i decided to drop one along with the gem of blood on the lord. this way i can effectively get blood knights. would this be a good thing? having both black knights and blood knights along with 7 wide ghoul units?? should i gimp my numbers a little to get those 5 dire wolves for screening the blood knights? i can get a 14 and 2x 20 strong ghouls units this way. along with the vampires thats still 7 wide 2 and 3 ranks. another thing is i might drop the musician on the knights to get more ghouls. or to get the dire wolves for the screening. i think this way the list might become even more powerfull. of course i wont make the stupid mistake of joining my general with the knights. hell hide in a ghoul unit or join the black knights to give them more stomping power. anyway let me know what you think guys cuz im really liking where this is going.

Gokamok
29-09-2008, 14:27
How on earth can you lose your Wraiths as some of your first models, and yet not have been in need of dispel scrolls?:wtf:

Sounds to me as if you've been playing them carelessly. Sure, Wraiths will meet a horrible end if they're charged by a tooled up lord with a magic weapon, but you really should be able to avoid that happening.

I'm a big fan of Blood Knights, but I'm not sure it's worth spending 400 points on the unit. You could grab a unit of 5, along with 5 Dire Wolves for 315 points total.
An option on how to fund this would be to remove the Wraiths, both scrolls and Gem of Blood, which would leave 60 points for more hitting power on your vamps. Something like:

Lord, MotBA, Summon Ghouls, Dread Knight, Staff, Helm, Balefire Spike
Vampire, DA, AoD, Book, Sword of Might
Vampire, DA, AoD, Periapt, Sword of Battle
Vampire, DA, AoD, Sword of Kings

....or whatever you feel like spending the odd points on:D

Gharof von Carstein
30-09-2008, 09:24
Well i dont know exactly how many points 5 blood knights is with a banner wearer and bloodfang banner but im guessing its 325p. anyone stop me if im wrong. if so i just cut the wraiths and a scroll for the blood knights and cut the gem of blood and the other scroll for dire wolves x5. cutting the biting blade. frees up 15 points. adding the balefire spike to my lord clears up those points. list would look sorta like this:

Lvl 3 Vampire lord w/ master of the black arts, summon ghouls, dreadknight, staff of damnation, helm of commandment, balefire spike, extra magic level.
= 440p

Vampire w/ dark acolyte, avatar of death(shield), book of arkan = 185p
Vampire w/ dark acolyte, avatar of death(shield), black periapt = 165p
Vampire w/ dark acolyte, avatar of death(shield), = 150p

Ghouls x21 + ghast = 176p
Ghouls x21 + ghast = 176p
Ghouls x17 + ghast = 144p

Blood Knights x 5, bannerwearer, banner of blood keep = 325p

Black knights x6 +bannerwearer. banner of the dead legion, barding = 209p

Dire wolves x 5

13PD - 7DD / 2 Bound

total score = 2000p

Gokamok
30-09-2008, 11:53
5 Blood Knights with The Flag of Blood Keep will cost you exactly 370 points:)

Gharof von Carstein
30-09-2008, 12:37
Thx for the help gokamok. this is the list as is. i like the feel of it and cant wait to let this hit the table :)

Lvl 3 Vampire lord w/ master of the black arts, summon ghouls, avatar of death, staff of damnation, blood drinker, extra magic level. = 415p

Vampire w/ dark acolyte, avatar of death(shield), book of arkan = 185p
Vampire w/ dark acolyte, avatar of death(shield), black periapt = 165p
Vampire w/ dark acolyte, avatar of death(shield), helm of commandment = 180p

Ghouls x20 + ghast = 168p
Ghouls x20 + ghast = 168p
Ghouls x17 + ghast = 144p

Dire wolves x 5 = 40p

Grave Guard x 20, F/C, banner of the strigoi = 325

Black coach = 200p

Dire wolves x 5 = 40p

13PD - 7DD / 2 Bound

total score = 2000p