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The Judge
14-09-2008, 18:10
So I finished Titanicus yesterday morning, and what can I say? Awesome read. I love all things Adeptus Mechanicus, and the Titans have got to be one of the coolest things in 40K. A whole novel of them could have gotten stale pretty quickly, but Abnett manages to pull off what is now one of my favourite BL novels.

Any book by Abnett tends to be greeted with some skepticism, especially on here, but I didn't catch many jarring inconsistencies or fluff errors. I always see the areas of his work that don't match up with the *accepted view* of 40K as an example of just how big the universe is, and how it is always going to pull some surprises.
The small things I struggled with at first were the outlandish, violent nature of skitarii (which in hindsight makes perfect sense), and the sheer number of Reavers present - I had always thought them to be fairly rare titans. Maybe Dan has a deal going with Forgeworld to advertise them? ;)
The Adepts and Magi also seemed to show lots of emotion in their speech, considering the cold logic of the Mechanicus, but I saw that as a translation of their Machine Cant, to make us identify with the characters somewhat. Completely unfeeling, mechanical dialogue would have become tiring quickly.

The new ideas of the noosphere, the Manifold, amniotic tanks and all the other unknown things were refreshing and exciting - the Mechanicus really is completely alien to the Imperium in so many ways...

I look forward to Mechanicum more than ever now, and have restarted work on my Titan Legion for Epic.

Verdict; READ IT

Mechanicus
14-09-2008, 20:30
As a fellow AdMech fan, I'm glad to hear such a good review of it. Haven't got it myself (waiting for paperback), but my previous scepticism and apprehension about this has gradually faded away as I heard how Graham and Dan were exchanging ideas on the Mechanicus, and as I read the pdf preview.

If this is any indicator, Mechanicum is going to be very good; even if Graham has said he found it difficult to write.



Any book by Abnett tends to be greeted with some skepticism, especially on here, but I didn't catch many jarring inconsistencies or Fluff errors. I always see the areas of his work that don't match up with the *accepted view* of 40K as an example of just how big the universe is, and how it is always going to pull some surprises. Agreed here; he may have a different vision of 40k, but that's why he has his own fairly isolated area of the Imperium to work with (Sabbat Worlds) - he really can make it his own.


The small things I struggled with at first were the outlandish, violent nature of skitarii (which in hindsight makes perfect sense), Well, violent I can understand. Inhibitions against physical violence are so biological. ;) I imagine they'd be quite clinical, especially those who have undergone the unction of pure thought.
...and the sheer number of Reavers present - I had always thought them to be fairly rare titans. Maybe Dan has a deal going with Forgeworld to advertise them? The Reavers, or so I hear, are quite rare. I can't actually substantiate that though; I know they're the oldest, but I can't remember for the life of me whether they were actually very rare. And the Forgeworld thing is quite possible; he wrote Eisenhorn to tie in with Inquisitor, after all.


The Adepts and Magi also seemed to show lots of emotion in their speech, considering the cold logic of the Mechanicus, but I saw that as a translation of their Machine Cant, to make us identify with the characters somewhat. Completely unfeeling, mechanical dialogue would have become tiring quickly.Perhaps, but whilst the adepts of the Machine God try to be unemotional, but unless they get the unction of clear thought (which some do), they're quite likely to have those irritating emotions, no matter how much they try to suppress them.


The new ideas of the noosphere, the Manifold, amniotic tanks and all the other unknown things were refreshing and exciting - the Mechanicus really is completely alien to the Imperium in so many ways...I think I might get it out from a library rather than wait a year for a paperback version...

Anyway, excellent to hear about Titanicus. Oh, I don't suppose you remember any special or unusual Mechanicus ranks in the book, did you? :D

MajorWesJanson
15-09-2008, 00:12
We have seen Titans before from Abnett, with the comic. In that, the primarchs and moderati showed a lot of emotion, so it is not inconsistent.

I loved the comic, so I'm looking forward to reading the book

The Judge
19-09-2008, 11:20
I always saw the Princeps and other titan crew as one of the few Mechanicus people who would show emotion; I'm not sure why, I just saw their role to be a lot different to the cataloguing and testing that the other priests do. I see them as a kind of nobility within the Mechanicus, probably due the way Hekate was drawn in the Titan comic, with the uniform of an officer and a moustache, but not many bionic implants.

On the subject of new Mechanicus ranks, I did not see many new ones apart from within the Titan Legions; apparently there exists the rank of "Executor," a barely enhanced (visibly) politician-style character who acts as the face of the Legion when they talk with Imperial and non-Mechanicus people. He is the one who speaks for the Legion when they are asked to join a war, and drives around in what sounds like a unarmed Ordinatus, observing the Legion from behind the line while they fight.

Most of the characters are also assisted by a "Famulous," who acts as the person's heir and follows them around constantly, learning from them before, inevitably taking their place. The executor, princeps and some of the higher techpriests all have famulous.

That's all I can remember now...

Goruax
20-09-2008, 03:19
The Princeps, particularly the Primus (not sure what the rank of Bohrmann is, but the major Princeps of the Legions) are revered, even by the Moderati and other Engine-workers.
Lower down within the Legion itself, they're revered to an extreme level.

Not finished it yet, but it's awesome :p

As for the Reaver's, I doubt they'd be rarer than Warlords. For a start, a Warlord supposedly takes decades to build, due to the sheer size and craftsmanship involved.
Reavers would require less, but still be somewhat costly.

The Judge
20-09-2008, 10:41
I know they should be quicker to build, it's just an older piece of background I remember vaguely that says they are more difficult, maybe due to a more efficient engine, or a perculier method of construction.

Bohrman is the second princeps, Gearhart is the Legion commander. He is completely badass.

Mechanicus
20-09-2008, 12:10
Thanks, Judge - the Executor sounds rather like the Grand Master of the Legion, though it could be different, and Famulous are very good - a technical name for the apprentices and followers-on is good to hear about.

So, is Gearhart a magos commander? A praetorian princeps/princeps primus? An executor? Bohrman, this second princeps, what is it that he does exactly? I like that there's yet more hero worship with the titan legions, though. :D

Burnthem
20-09-2008, 12:43
Having read the teaser on the BL website (http://www.blacklibrary.com/pdf/titanicus.pdf) i like where it's going and will definitely get the book when it comes out in paperback. One point however that i don't like is the lack of complete control that the Princeps has over his Warhound.

I've always thought of a Princeps being totally in control of his Titans movements, directing where it walks and fires, but in the extract the Moderati and Steersman move the Titan under orders from the Princeps. I've always thought that the crew were just there to monitor and regulate the Titans systems, not actually control the thing. Having to say 'Dead Stop/Low run/Sprint' etc etc everytime you want to do something is just so unwieldy and time comsuming in a battle it'd get you killed.

IMO :)

Goruax
21-09-2008, 01:29
@Burnthem;
Yeah, the Princeps is, in essence, the senses of the Titan, and must still command the rest of the crew, but due to his connection with the Titan he is much more aware of his surroundings and can direct the crew more than adequately to make the Titan operate with seemingly single-person interaction.

@Mechanicus;
Gearhart is, as The Judge said, the Legio Invicta Commander.
He is the ultimate authority, within Invicta itself, as well as being the Big Daddy when it comes to commanding an Engine.
Bohrman is the Second Princeps, essentially the Famulous to Gearhart, the second in command, but an awesome commander in his own right.

Mechanicus
21-09-2008, 09:53
Ah, okay - so he's the chief princeps. That makes more sense. Thanks! :)

The Judge
22-09-2008, 13:16
So, is Gearhart a magos commander? A praetorian princeps/princeps primus? An executor? Bohrman, this second princeps, what is it that he does exactly? I like that there's yet more hero worship with the titan legions, though

Others have mentioned it, but to be clear...

Gearhart is the first Princeps, and essentially the Grand Master. He commands the lead titan, and is also essential to deciding whether the Legion will fight or not.
Bohrman is the second Princeps, second in command of the Titans, but not necessarily the Legion. He is about equal to...
Lao is the commander of the Skitarii, and a monster. He is not a Praetorian however, and they get no mention in this book, other than "weaponised servitors. Neither do Electro-Priests, somewhat disappointingly.
Crusius is the Executor of the Legion; the public-relations of the Legion and first person people come to when they want the Legion to help them in a warzone. He is subordinate to Gearhart, but utterly essential to the Legion as their voice and public face.

I feel this book could have done with a character list at the start, like the Heresy series have!

Dominus_Serui
22-09-2008, 15:07
Praetorians aren't leaders, they're ****off scary large Servitors...the Skitarii leaders are Tribunes.

Also, the book is awesome if not for the cameo's from the Titan comics...

Allen
22-09-2008, 15:26
I've always imagined the Skitarii as cold and efficient killers. How are portrayed in the book to be defined as "outlandish and violent"?

Mechanicus
22-09-2008, 16:44
Praetorians aren't leaders, they're ****off scary large Servitors...the Skitarii leaders are Tribunes.

Also, the book is awesome if not for the cameo's from the Titan comics...'Praetorian' are simply the Mechanicus term for 'elite'. They have praetorian skitarii, praetorian princeps, praetorian servitors, etc. And the Skitarii are comanded by a bloody lot of people; and ultimately, the Archmagos Ultima it seems. Tribune is simply a posh term for lieutenant.


Gearhart is the first Princeps, and essentially the Grand Master. He commands the lead titan, and is also essential to deciding whether the Legion will fight or not.
Bohrman is the second Princeps, second in command of the Titans, but not necessarily the Legion. He is about equal to...
Lao is the commander of the Skitarii, and a monster. He is not a Praetorian however, and they get no mention in this book, other than "weaponised servitors. Neither do Electro-Priests, somewhat disappointingly.
Crusius is the Executor of the Legion; the public-relations of the Legion and first person people come to when they want the Legion to help them in a warzone. He is subordinate to Gearhart, but utterly essential to the Legion as their voice and public face.Ah, that helps! Thanks. ;)

buffedbug
22-09-2008, 22:38
just finished it and gotta say its great start to finish, love the battle of the titan steps as well as all the stories concerning the PDF scraps just trying to get out of the way.

all in all a must read for imperial fans

Dominus_Serui
22-09-2008, 22:46
My personal favorite is the section were a trio of Macharius Vulcans open fire on a squad in a trench-system and several Skitarii on a bridge, and a moment later there is no squad, no Skitarii, and the bridge and trenches are gone.

Gobbo Trouble
23-09-2008, 09:33
just finished it myself and i thought it was a good read, didn't much see the point of cally's little outing but i guess it was showing different aspects of the war.

spoliers:

dont see how the mechanicus could have forgotten that the emperor is not a god or related to there god, as there so into saving knowledge and all that malarky, plus they live a lot lot longer than normal humans

anyone got a link to picture sizes of different titans?

Dominus_Serui
23-09-2008, 10:45
Because its quite implied that several of them have an unhealthy idea that the C'tan under Mars is their god - and the Emperor is not.

robertsjf
24-09-2008, 01:21
I know they should be quicker to build, it's just an older piece of background I remember vaguely that says they are more difficult, maybe due to a more efficient engine, or a perculier method of construction.

Really, if we're remembering the same fluff I thought reavers were more rare due to the Horus Heresy. The fact that anything smaller than a Warlord was pounded to scrap in in the opening engagements. That's why they had Warlord variants with lighter weapon loads that were used as scouts at the time.

Eulenspiegel
27-09-2008, 01:42
*bump* and hijack

Well my good friend amazon.de just recommended me TITANICUS.
I must say that I canīt see how a book that is mainly about mechanicus characters (?) can be interesting in any way. I suppose itīs mainly fight scenes and techno-babbble?

Please recommend that book to someone who isnīt at all interested in Titans and Adeptus Mechanicus :cool:

The Judge
27-09-2008, 11:29
I can't be the best spokesman for it, since I love Titans and the Adeptus Mechanicus, but I've got a feeling you will be a fan after reading it.

Don't worry about it just being battle scenes; it's not, but the ones that are there are superb, as you would expect of Dan Abnett. The techno-babble is also minimal, but of course there is some.

The Mechanicus characters are nowhere near boring; they actually have a lot more quirks and character than I expected, and are never a chore to read about. Also, there are several characters who are not members of the Mechanicus, and they get a lot of page-time.

All in all, excellent read, thoroughly recommended... but if you really aren't interested in Titans at all (!?), there are better books out there.

Eulenspiegel
27-09-2008, 11:38
Well, you are the Judge :D and your recommendation is good enough for me.
Unless someone gives a devastating no-no in the next two days, Iīm going to order it.

Edit:
Yes, K&m, that might be a good idea. I just checked the price for the hardback, and because I regularly almost ruin my books while reading I wonīt buy the hardback.

Khornies & milk
27-09-2008, 11:40
I haven't read it yet but I've been keenly watching for and reading Threads like this about it. I don't have any les interest in Titans than I do any other part of the 40K Universe but I want to read this book-
a/ I love reading anything that helps me get a fuller picture of the 40K Universe
b/ I love Sci-fi
c/ because I like Abnett novels a lot

also nothing you just wrote has put me off it...I'll just wait until it comes out in Paperback because I don't want to spend $AUS60.

The Judge
27-09-2008, 13:19
I forgot to mention that buying the paperback would probably be the best idea... I just happen to have all the Abnett novels in hardback (all the ones released) so I couldn't leave this one out. The price is... high, true.

Also...


I've always imagined the Skitarii as cold and efficient killers. How are portrayed in the book to be defined as "outlandish and violent"?

Rather than being clean and cold, like some of the descriptions and certainly some of the conversions done by forum members (such as Hortwerth), the Skitarii of the Legio Invicta wear armour that is decorated with kill markings, frightening masks with carved teeth and other "scary" features, and I believe one of them is even described as having feathers adorning part of his armour.
This went against my idea of skitarii, but I justified it as a peculiarity of the Legion Invicta, and then as I read on the book justified it by saying how the skitarii were modified purely for war. By having the emotional part of their brain dealt with to get rid of fear, the Mechanicus also increased the aggression. When combined with the drugs they pump them with, it makes for particularly vicious soldiers.

Dominus_Serui
27-09-2008, 14:15
Skitarii are, in essence, just as varied as the different Guard Regiments, simply because of the differences between Forgeworlds and other areas tech-guard are raised from.

The Judge
27-09-2008, 14:54
It makes sense for them to be varied, just like the Guardsmen... but I had not imagined it until I read this book.

Tonberry
14-11-2008, 12:58
Threadmancy, but I just finished this book and didn't see the point of opening a new thread.

Great read, as expected from Abnett, although it gets a little confusing remembering who all the characters are.
One thing that struck me as odd was the ease with which the Titans died, and inconsistancies with this. Sometime it would take multiple shots to down a Warhound, then in other instancies there are reports of single Titans scoring multiple engine kills? Meh, still good action sequences.

*spoilers*

Is the last line about Varco implying that his Omnissiah medallion was just some decoration from the side of his Vanquisher that just happened to land in his pocket?

Firstborn
14-11-2008, 13:44
I just finished reading this book. I couldn't put it down, and read deep into the night (3pm!) on the two nights it took me to finish it, and that was on a work night! The last time I got so in to a book was the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, when I first read them about 10 years ago. I must say, this has replaced the Eisenhorn books as my favourite 40k books.

Throughout the book there are examples of sheer writing brilliance. The Titan Steps, the battle in the dust storm, the one near the end where the Tempestus Warlord faces off against a legion of Skitarii and 2 Warhounds. It was rivetting from start to finish. I especially liked Gearhearts own personal battle with his MIU.

One of the lines I found particularly thrilling is when Skitarii vs Skitarii battles are described as the most viscious imaginable, putting Astartes to shame.

I highly recommend this book to any 40k fan. Before I read this book I imagined Engines as ponderiously slow weapons platforms (which was cool in it's own way). Since reading it I have come to understand they are much more dynamic, much more viscious, and most importantly, that Engine combat is a lot more interesting and complex than I previously thought.

<Exloading to Noosphere>Praise be the Omnissiah! Legio Invicta walks! The God Machines walk! Red Fury walks! Praise be the Omnissiah!>

<Away, low stride, bring the reactor to 75%, warm up the voids.>

<Engine kill, engine kill!>

I think I am going to read this book again... :D

CELS
17-11-2008, 02:14
@Mechanicus: The head of the legion, Gearheart, is referred to as the Princeps Maximus. I believe his second in command is the First Princeps (Princeps Primus?) Bohrman. I will have to check this though.

@Tonberry: Agreed about the number of characters. I find that Dan Abnett always introduces a lot of characters, which easily confuses me, but he really outdid himself in this novel. Some of the characters that were introduced seemed to serve no purpose and in the end I don't understand why he bothered with them. Maybe the editors in Black Library forced him to shorten the original story? The miniature builder seemed like a potentially interesting character, but what actually happened to him? He had no money, then he sold titan miniatures, then he made more money, then he got punched in the face, the end. Did I miss some interesting character development here?

@Dominus_Serui: Implication about the C'tan? What? Where? All it said was that it proved the Emperor wasn't divine. I couldn't find any implication or clue as to the actual reason they knew this. Granted, the idea that the Emperor isn't the Machine God fits in neatly with the C'tan conspiracy, but I think there would have been far more pandemonium if there was alien worshipping involved in the debate. I did find it quite annoying that Abnett didn't actually explain what the proof was though.
I also found it annoying that Abnett only presented A) Emperor is Machine God, B) Emperor is not Machine God and not C) Emperor is Omnissiah, a supremely enlightened being worthy of worship for his sheer awesomeness. Alternative C always seemed like thet standard Mechanicus view to me.

Firstborn
17-11-2008, 05:25
The doll maker was there to show how easily public opinion is swayed against something, and anything even vaguely related to it.

CELS
17-11-2008, 06:14
Possibly. But it still seemed like a potentially cool addition to the storyline that should have been expanded, but could easily have been left out. The mercurial quality of the public opinion was already quite evident through the descriptions of the riots and the news reports sprinkled between scenes. It seemed unnecessary to me to create a whole storyline within the novel just to bring attention to the savagery of the mob. Which, to be fair, wasn't even that savage. <shrug>

Firstborn
17-11-2008, 06:35
Another wasted chance was the old Princepts who was the garden tender. He was just beginning to regain his memory of God Machines when the story ended.

The more I think about it, the more loose ends there are. Maybe he is setting himself up for a sequel with the Gardener regaining his mind and being reintegrated into an Engine, Cally joining the PDF Primary as a platoon commander, and the doll maker doing... somthing.

Still an awesome read though, and it inspired me to get to work on my own Titans (the legs of my Reaver are almost finished now).

Chainsworded Codpiece
17-11-2008, 17:33
Usually, I don't complain about an Abnett book's battle-scenes (aside from the Gaunt vs. CSM in Traitor General).

But I have one complaint concerning this book. Only one.

I wanted WAAAAAY more from that final Apoc-style battle at the end.

It truly felt like a "wrap-up" summary to me, given the scale of the thing. I enjoyed the holy-hannah-montana out of the other battle-scenes, be they small-arms or Titanic in nature. But that last one was just so rushed.

I do feel that Abnett was forced to turn two books' worth of stuff into one book... that, I assert, is why some of the bit-part characters' parts felt unresolved, or even somewhat purposeless.

And, I wonder, is that why the last battle seemed so shortened? It feels like a clash of that scale could have taken up at least three big chapters on its' own.

All the AdMech characterization/dialogue and person-to-person plot was quite good, and, I feel, a great twist on our usual perceptions of the ol' Coggies.

Loved the Abnett skew of the Skitarii- much as the Titans themselves are engineered "beasts", so are the Skitarii...genhanced and cosmetically ornamented to (deliberately) frighten non-Mechanicum soldiery with their "beastly" aspect. Awesome.

Overall, a good read...but I really wish that it was longer!

The Judge
17-11-2008, 19:31
Abnett has a habit of featuring a massive battle in the summary wrap-up last chapter - Necropolis, Sabbat Martyr, and now Titanicus. It's kind of disappointing, but sometimes I think it's okay, since he tends to focus on the individual characters so much more than the grand battles. Leave that to McNeil.

LuckyKa
17-11-2008, 23:04
Haven't read any more of this then what is in the BL PDF extract. But, WOW!!
Is it me, or has GW's fluff become alot more consistent? I recently finished the Lastest HH book, which features alot of Titans. And most aspects seem to now correspond.. the names of parts, the tactics of the warhound.. etc etc. Even items like the Noosphere, which in the HH books is a new and wonderful invention. ( read it - this book i'm sure will ring bells and make more sense - especially considering the Ctan Doubters )
But this thread has definatly sold the book to me. Cheers Guys.

TheMav80
18-11-2008, 00:48
I just finished Titanicus and loved it. Cyberpunk done up in 40K style.

The presentation of the noosphere and the titan manifold was great. I loved the way the Princeps struggle to maintain their sense of self and control over the machine spirit of their titans.

The Skittari were awesome. I loved the ones acting as Sonne's bodyguard. The scene of them just aching to be allowed to blast their way into the Forge was great. They seemed very sad not to have the chance to kill something. :)

I do feel, as others have said, that the ending felt rather abrubt. Wheather because Abnett was not sure how to end it or he was forced to condense it's size. I did enjoy the view of the war from the other persepctives though. It's always great to get descriptions of how horrifying these machines are to some poor sod on the ground.

I especially liked how the traitor titans acted. They were described as much more feral than their proud upstanding brothers of the Mechanicum. Especially the ones that just kept bellowing their names in scrapcode as they fought. "You already said that..." BOOM! :D

One last thing, the chapter numbers being in binary = win.

johnmcl7
25-11-2008, 00:41
Just finished reading this now and as with pretty much everyone else I did really enjoy it, normally I'd baulk at paying six pounds for a single book so 11 pounds would be too much. However a Dan Abnett book about titans was just too hard to resist and it's been well worth it.

I also found the ending very abrupt, not just the big titan battle but the guy in the garden just went nowhere and I thought there was going to be more with the toymaker. I did wonder if I'd missed something with the gardener as I thought Gearhart may have said his name when he was confused but I don't think so.

With regards to the numbers of reaver titans I think that's partially perception as it did seem like the bulk of the engines were warlords and warhounds but as the enemy was using reavers in a sneaky role to trip up the Mechanicus titans, there was more seen of them.

The concept of the amniotic caskest puzzled me though as I couldn't work out their point, the book implied they were there for historical reasons rather than anything logical. However surely the Orestes-pattern warlords while being based on Proximus-pattern warlords would have improved this aspect if possible, the auspex system seem to be largely improved. If the Princeps was permanently installed in the titan then I could understand the amniotic system to keep the Princeps alive howver as they're being taken in and out the casket seems a massive restriction. The book obviously showed this when the Tempestus engine was destroyed and the Princeps left stranded. I assume the complexity of the connection allowed a better interface however other titans don't seem to have this issue.

The role of Moderati/Princeps was confusing even after reading the above, I thought the Princeps was in direct control of the titan with the rest of the crew monitoring its systems and feeding them back to it. In the book the Princeps seem to be sensing the Titan but the crew seems to be controlling its speed, rotation and weaponry. During the first battle the Victrix takes part in it looks like Tarses could have conducted the battle without the Princeps.

John

Mojaco
25-11-2008, 10:25
Am I the only person who didn't like it?

I expected a lot more from this book. The Legion was portayed very cool with great new elements added to the mix, but the book lacked a serious enemy. Why were there so many chaos titans just trodding around waiting under some cloaking shield device thing? How can an army which so outnumbers its Imperial enemy still lose so badly, and not even wreck the main capital?
And most importantly; what the hell were they doing there? They were there for quite some time with considerable resources, but at no point there is a good reason for them to be there. And why just Titans? Why no Blood pact or air support (which goes for both sides)? Just big ass machines hitting each other until one gets its shields overloaded. Yawn.

Also, there were two side stories that were just rediculously similar. An ragtag band of soldiers in unfamiliar situations, both with an enginseer who overloads, who find something valuable along the way. And both storylines weren't that interesting to begin with.

All in all, some great ideas and some interesting sections, but summed up I thought it was a disappointment.

Firstborn
25-11-2008, 10:56
The Dark Mechanicus were there to knock out the forge which was supplying major arms and armour to the crusade. I agree that they didn't put up much of a fight.

Tonberry
25-11-2008, 11:18
Another wasted chance was the old Princepts who was the garden tender. He was just beginning to regain his memory of God Machines when the story ended.

I was expecting Gearhart or the new young princeps (see, too many characters :wtf:) to get injured, thus leaving an engine without a commander and forcing Mr.Crazy gardener to come forth and save the day ... but in the end he did nothing. I am inclined to agree that there was some harsh editorial work going on here, but personaly I think it would have been better to spread it over two books than leave random characters with no real significance.

And my favourite bit in the whole novel was where the guys (again, too many names) Skitarii bodyguards are thinking about storming the building, and one of them is like, "I have an auxillary grenade launcher!"..."So yeah that gets us an extra 2 feet"...

EDIT: Not quoted verbatim :)

johnmcl7
25-11-2008, 12:05
Am I the only person who didn't like it?

I expected a lot more from this book. The Legion was portayed very cool with great new elements added to the mix, but the book lacked a serious enemy. Why were there so many chaos titans just trodding around waiting under some cloaking shield device thing? How can an army which so outnumbers its Imperial enemy still lose so badly, and not even wreck the main capital?
And most importantly; what the hell were they doing there? They were there for quite some time with considerable resources, but at no point there is a good reason for them to be there. And why just Titans? Why no Blood pact or air support (which goes for both sides)? Just big ass machines hitting each other until one gets its shields overloaded. Yawn.


Waiting for the right opportunity, the Chaos engines seemed much better at sneaky assaults rather than direct assault where the Invicta engines seemed much better. If the void shield hasn't been destroyed the Invicta/Tempestus engines would have been on their way back to either prepare for lifting or fight it out with the forge which would be an ideal time for the chaos titans to bulldoze the lot in one swoop. Although it was 60 engines they may not have been in good condition which may also be why they were kept hiding until they stood a better chance.

John

Hellebore
25-11-2008, 12:25
Reavers ARE indeed the rarest battle titan. Warlords are more common. The reaver is harder to make apparently. The warlord may take longer but they actually know how to build one.

Hellebore

Firstborn
25-11-2008, 12:32
I was under the impression that they could no longer produce Reavers, and that all of the ones currently in service have been in use since long before the heresy.

The Judge
25-11-2008, 15:00
Not sure on whether they cannot be produced anymore... I certainly doubt that they can't given the information in the latest FW books. Maybe quite a few Forgeworlds cannot make them, but a rare few can, like the Stormblade or Vanquisher?

Mojaco
25-11-2008, 15:47
The Dark Mechanicus were there to knock out the forge which was supplying major arms and armour to the crusade. I agree that they didn't put up much of a fight.

If destruction was the only goal then exterminatus is a better solution. The Sabbat Worlds chaos forces are capable of that, given the complete destruction of Tanith in two days IIRC.

@johnmcl7; Invicta didn't show up until 3 weeks or so into the war. Until that time the Chaos legion outnumbers the present legion but 5 to 1 or so (I'm not sure where the numbers come from, but I recall something like 150 to 30). Hiding 60 engines for the sake of hiding made little sense. Perhaps for repairs and refits, but that's not very threatning or chaosy.
Plus, while the void/cloak shield was destroyed (and very poorly defended I might add), the Titans were already moving out, with no sense of timing at all. If they suddenly appeared to bolster the chaos forces at Soaktown (whatever the hive was called), the loyalist legios might have had a problem. Now they just had a second fight right after the first, which sucks but is not a great use of resources by the Chaos commander.

All in all, the forces of chaos are faceless idiots in Abbnets books. It's starting to annoy.

Firstborn
25-11-2008, 20:06
The Chaos forces planned on pulling all the remaining loyalist Engines to the southern Hive (at the battle with the Emperor class titan), then attack with the reserve at the main Hive while the loyalists were occupied. Sound military tactics. You always keep a portion of your forces in reserve.

Mojaco
26-11-2008, 10:11
Whether they intended to attack at soaktown or the main hive, their timing was way off, wasn't it? Keep stuff in reserve is fine, but if your opponent goes all-out on the first elements then those reserves should move their ass. If I were to play a battle at 1500 pts against 1000 pts, and then use what I have left against a new 500 pts army, I think I'd do better then fighting 1500 pts in one go (or with 500 coming in during the battle).

Firstborn
26-11-2008, 10:34
At soak town they had equal numbers plus an Emperator class titan. There is no reason why they should have lost that battle, except Abnetts Deux ex Mechanicus (not the Omnissiah!). So whilst all the resistance was being taken care of at Soak Town the reserve elements were advancing on the main northern hive to destroy that. Even with the Imperial victory at Soak Town, Chaos should have beaten them easily in the final battle, and Abnett doesn't actually explain how 38 damaged Mechanicus Titans are able to defeat 60+ Dark Mechanicus titans. Even with the flanking move by the 5 or so Titans they should have been annhilated. Still, was a great book!

Mojaco
26-11-2008, 15:19
There's that too, but that's BL's general problem. If need be, one marine can kill whole squads. If he should lose, one guardsman can get a lucky shot. It's completely random. Having a name in a book apperantly makes you better at fighting. Austin Powers in Goldmember had some fun with that concept ("look at you, you don't even have a name tag. You don't stand a chance.")

CELS
26-11-2008, 19:38
Just for the record, it is pointed out in the novel that the forces of Chaos don't always have strategies that make a whole lot of sense. Sure, it's a simple way of explaining why Chaos keep resorting to the typical Evil Overlord tactics ("We'll set up a huge invasion with only one big weakness... because surely, no one will use that against us." Ref: Fortis Binary, etc, etc) but on the other hand... it's Chaos. The fact that their methods don't make sense is part of their character. One advantage is that it makes them more unpredictable. One disadvantage is that standard tactics are standard for a reason, thus they tend to leave themselves open one way or the other.

But if Chaos forces in Abnett's novels were portrayed as completely rational, that would reduce the whole conflict to good vs evil.

johnmcl7
26-11-2008, 19:44
Whether they intended to attack at soaktown or the main hive, their timing was way off, wasn't it? Keep stuff in reserve is fine, but if your opponent goes all-out on the first elements then those reserves should move their ass. If I were to play a battle at 1500 pts against 1000 pts, and then use what I have left against a new 500 pts army, I think I'd do better then fighting 1500 pts in one go (or with 500 coming in during the battle).

Their timing seemed perfect to me, it's likely Chaos knew what was going on with the Mechanicus/Imperium even if they didn't know about the Invicta/Tempestus split it would would have been a good time to attack. The forge/hive were generally in disarray and the Invicta/Tempestus engines could well have come to blows, even if they weren't they would have caught the titans retreating from what they thought was a victory rather than advancing and preparing to attack.

You're assuming all the Chaos engines were equals to their Mechanicus counterparts with your analogy however from the descriptions and capabilities the chaos titans seemed to have in the book that definitely wasn't the case.

John

Mojaco
28-11-2008, 13:43
Perhaps. All in all thought, even if it can be explained, the Chaos legion posed little threat except for there being a lot of them. Seems uncreative and I expected more from Abnett.

Firstborn
28-11-2008, 14:30
I have never seen a single Black Library book where the enemy seemed to pose a threat, except maybe the Konrad series, but that predates Black Library.

Mojaco
29-11-2008, 01:37
Go read the entire Horus Heresy series :) Or 15 hours. that one is horribly depressing.

johnmcl7
30-11-2008, 07:36
Perhaps. All in all thought, even if it can be explained, the Chaos legion posed little threat except for there being a lot of them. Seems uncreative and I expected more from Abnett.

I doubt Legio Tempestus or the Orestes PDF would agree with you there...

John

Mojaco
30-11-2008, 23:17
:) Fair enough. I just couldn't help waiting for some twist that would suddenly make the whole Chaos Host make sense. A sudden dire threat that could turn a balance or something. But now the new legio simply arrived and started killin'. Yawn. The little book didn't make much difference with there being 3 1/2 titans from tempestus left.

The Judge
01-12-2008, 03:26
I think this book was just trying to establish titans in a BL novel; afterall we've not had them have their own book before. Leave it to the sequels to make some ground-breaking twists.

johnmcl7
01-12-2008, 10:06
I think it's partially the way the book is written, history is written by the victors as they say - the narrative focuses more on the damage being inflicted by the Mechanicus titans and is quieter on the damage taken, there's quite a lot of loyal titans taken out after Invicta has arrived.

John

Lord of Worms
21-01-2010, 17:07
Perhaps, but whilst the adepts of the Machine God try to be unemotional, but unless they get the unction of clear thought (which some do), they're quite likely to have those irritating emotions, no matter how much they try to suppress them.


I would sooner like to see them as "human-esque" rather than the lobotomised automatons they were portrayed like in the Word Bearers series. That was just terrible.:wtf:

Lyinar
21-01-2010, 17:30
I just read the paperback in about a day and a half... I liked it.

The skitarii being engineered to be frightening, savage bastards makes sense, and I loved the "I have an automatic grenade launcher..." line when Sonne's trying to talk sense into his bodyguards.

Promethius
21-01-2010, 19:40
As for the Reaver's, I doubt they'd be rarer than Warlords. For a start, a Warlord supposedly takes decades to build, due to the sheer size and craftsmanship involved.
Reavers would require less, but still be somewhat costly.

I thought (and correct me if I'm wrong) that the reason there are more warlords than reavers is that the warlord was introduced as the replacement to the reaver. It's pretty much the same reason you see more vauxhall corsas than novas.


But I have one complaint concerning this book. Only one.

I wanted WAAAAAY more from that final Apoc-style battle at the end.

It truly felt like a "wrap-up" summary to me, given the scale of the thing. I enjoyed the holy-hannah-montana out of the other battle-scenes, be they small-arms or Titanic in nature. But that last one was just so rushed.

I do feel that Abnett was forced to turn two books' worth of stuff into one book... that, I assert, is why some of the bit-part characters' parts felt unresolved, or even somewhat purposeless.


Abnett is renowned for this, as answered by:


Abnett has a habit of featuring a massive battle in the summary wrap-up last chapter - Necropolis, Sabbat Martyr, and now Titanicus. It's kind of disappointing, but sometimes I think it's okay, since he tends to focus on the individual characters so much more than the grand battles. Leave that to McNeil.

Often it feels like Abnett was enjoying the writing and then thought "damn! got to wrap everything up and only got 20 more pages left!" I'm not sure if that's really what happens or if it's his writing style. I find it annoying, too.

Loved Titanicus, though. After the comic strip I was keen for some more ad-mech goodness, and Abnett delivered. A cracking read.

Marshal Sinclair
21-01-2010, 21:58
I enjoyed this book very much, particularly enjoying the sections about the Skitarii. Abnet describes the only battles more viscious than Astartes vs (traiter) Astartes as those being of Skitarii vs (dark mechanicus) Skitarii. With his discriptions of their cold clinical evaluations of battlefield situations and their beastial savagery I can completely see this. Another great scene was the destruction of the Warlord towards the end by the legion of dark Skitarii and 2 Warhounds.

Escaflowne_Z
22-01-2010, 01:49
This book is good. Ties into MaNeil's Mechanicum novel very well. The side stories kept the book from becoming big walker blasts big walker over and over. There is enough humanity in the book to keep it interesting, while maintaining a clinical overtone.

Horus_Lupercal
24-01-2010, 00:08
i remember when my mom brought this home for me i was so jazzed i remember saying this is my new favriorte(sp) book lol, i have a new one now XD. i just wish that last big battle was a little more in depth, and i hope lau didnt die in that final scrap he was the coolest, implanted hellguns and bill hooks for the win !!!!!!

BlackLegion
24-01-2010, 01:34
Finally read this book.
I'm not impressed. Once the shields are down the Titans quickly are blown to bits which just feels wrong.
And how can Chaos manage to loose so bad with roughly twice (120! against 20
+40)the number of Titans (every single Chaos Titan is destroyed...every Chaos Titan! I thas to be because the Imperium can't allow even a single one to survive) ?

Urath
24-01-2010, 12:57
When is Titanicus actually set? I hear it ties into 'Mechanicum' and that it features Dark Mechanicus - so it's... Not set on Mars?

Marshal Sinclair
24-01-2010, 13:49
It's set in regular 40k. The Dark Mechanicus are simply renegade Adeptus Mechanicus, and so could be the original traitors or newer recruits. Much like renegade Marines et al.

Killgore
24-01-2010, 14:59
The battle against the Emperor titan reminded me to much of power rangers... Go Go super combined alpha strike mega attack! and the chaos titans far to easily >_<

but it was an enjoyable read if your an imperial fanboy.

Lord Cook
24-01-2010, 17:56
There were some problems here and there, but in my view nothing major. A generally good read.


Another wasted chance was the old Princepts who was the garden tender. He was just beginning to regain his memory of God Machines when the story ended.

I disagree. The gardener seemed to me to just be a portrayal of what a Princeps would eventually become, his mind degraded and destroyed. That was his entire purpose, supporting the plot line about Gearheart's losing war with his own MIU.


And most importantly; what the hell were they doing there?

Destroying a vital Imperial Forge World?


I was expecting Gearhart or the new young princeps (see, too many characters :wtf:)

Princeps Prinzhorn. Whether or not there were too many characters is a matter of opinion. I didn't think there were, and with respect I didn't find it confusing at all. Subjective, of course.


All in all, the forces of chaos are faceless idiots in Abbnets books. It's starting to annoy.

Since when? In many of Abnett's books the Chaos forces are often cunning and ruthless. Look at the orbital battle in Sabbat Martyr, for instance. A Chaos fleet of one Capital ship, three frigates and a civilian transport annihilates a much larger Imperial fleet, only losing a single frigate in the process.


Abnett doesn't actually explain how 38 damaged Mechanicus Titans are able to defeat 60+ Dark Mechanicus titans. Even with the flanking move by the 5 or so Titans they should have been annhilated.

The entire front swings around in the battle allowing Bohrman's reserve force to crash into the rear of the Chaos line. Whether or not you think a force of Titans should be vulnerable to being attacked from behind or not is opinion, but assuming they act like any other machine or army in the history of combat, I think they probably should.

Beskins
24-01-2010, 21:02
considered myself allways pretty informed on 40k background.

at the moment i read Titanicus and I m around page 100, and got confussed.

The Legion Invictus seem to be a part of the Adeptus Mechanicum,

i knew the ad mech and the Adeptus Titanicus where close, cause the supply and all that, but the space marines are nearly as close to the ad mech as the legions by the supply with wargear.

But in this book, it seems like this Legion is actually part of the Adeptus Mechanicus.

Anyone willing to help me, or inform me that this will be resolved later in this book.

Thanks

Enazel
24-01-2010, 21:20
The Adeptus Titanicus are part of the Ad Mech. They are one of the main forces of AdMech.

Beskins
24-01-2010, 21:56
In Dark Heresy on p. 248, witch is a GW Production, the Legions are only Intermixed with the Ad Mech and not completly included, so ...

any sources for your opinion? (internet sound so harsh, i am simpel courious)

Marshal Sinclair
24-01-2010, 22:36
You're part way through Titanicus and you have to ask that question? The Adeptus Titanicus are part of the Adeptus Mechanicus. It's one of their military arms (the main one in all likelyhood).

Beskins
25-01-2010, 09:10
Well, looking at the HH Mechanicus book, they are devided, looking into Dark Heresy book, they are devided, looking into Titanicus, they are undevided, wouldnt you start asking questions when sources contradict itself?

Marshal Sinclair
25-01-2010, 10:27
Well the Horus Heresy books are chock full of contradictions, Dark Heresy isn't published by GW. From all GW material (rule books, etc) the Mechanicum and Adeptus Titanicus are one and the same.

The Judge
25-01-2010, 10:47
The issue is that the Titan Legions have their own command hierarchy, distinct from the Mechanicus. A Legion does not have to take orders from the techpriests, they answer only to the princeps, and decide whether or not to fight.

in this manner the Titans are a part of the Mechanicus, but not under their direct command.

Marshal Sinclair
25-01-2010, 12:25
Only in the same way that the British Army is a seperate organisation from the British Government. They are an arm of the Mechanicus. A high enough ranking tech adept (the commanders of the Forge World for example) can order the Legions to do their bidding.

Lyinar
26-01-2010, 16:30
Not quite. They can request aid, but the Legions have autonomy, as shown by the data-conversation between the high brass of Legio Invicta at the beginning of the book as to whether or not they should answer the call.

The Titan Legions have that autonomy because, well... Would you want to try to lord anything over a fighting force consisting of what are essentially giant city-smashing mecha?

Marshal Sinclair
26-01-2010, 23:46
It's been a while since I read the book, so you need to remind me of something. :p Are the Legio Invicta the guys from the planet which is under attack, or the guys who come from the crusade to help them out? If they are the guys who are visiting it makes sense that they are not under the direct control of that world, as they are from a different Forgeworld. The different Forgeworlds are semi-autonimous, but I am sure the Legions are fully under the command of their home FW.

Lord of Worms
26-01-2010, 23:56
Invicta disobey an order from the warmaster to join him on the front when they hear the forgeworld asking for help. They make a deal where Tempestus lets them use their repair facilities and gives them a princeps.

The Judge
27-01-2010, 09:45
I'm sure that a Legion based on a Forgeworld will be so closely tied with the priesthood of the Forge that they appear to be under direct command, but I don't think they truly are. I still believe that the Titan Legions maintain some level of autonomy, some level of choice in whether they commit their forces to a war.

A canon source for this could be Mechanicum, where the Titan Legions and Knight Households do not answer to the Fabricator-General directly, but choose whether or not to ally with him. Even those who have chosen not to join the traitors do not immediately fall under the command of the loyalist techpriests - the book makes specific mention of Kane and Zeth "appealing" to the Legion commanders for aid, rather than demanding it.

x-esiv-4c
08-02-2010, 12:09
I just finished reading Titanicus. Looks like I have a dissenting opinion of the book. I found it boring, predictable and rushed. It's strange to say it but as soon as they mentioned that the God-Emperor and Omnessiah (sp) are two seperate entities, I knew this would be refuted as fabricated information, the authors of the 40k universe would never have the balls to take the story to a new level. Fracturing of the mechanicus and the Imperium? Never happen.

The characters were bland and poorly thought out with very little consistancy. This made it difficult to empathize with them in any discernable way.

The titan fights were complete disappointments. In any engagement, I knew the Ad-mech would come out on top, regardless of the odds. The set up of the Imperator class titan was nice, but 50 words late it was killed by a Voltron-style POWERS COMBINED!!1!roflmaow!!! attack. Most of the plot points feel poorly injected, the "weather machine", the uncovered truth, stef dying in the end.

Ergh.

Horus_Lupercal
08-02-2010, 15:52
didnt read all the posts just first page....... SPOILER ALERT***********************






i really enjoyed this book, i had no real complaints about it other than that final titan fight was lacking in detail. one of my faviorte parts is when Lau leads the ground forces of Invictus against the foul hordes of the archenemy to save that stricken titan. did any one else catch the mention about sentinent gun platforms?? maybe some limited ai? well, i hope Mr. Abnett writes another book and i wish him the best and hope he gets well soon.