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View Full Version : Dark elf all eggs in a basket army 2250 pts



KingOfStarcraft
16-09-2008, 07:14
Characters:

Dreadlord, shield, sea dragon cloak, heavy armour, repeater crossbow, null talisman x4, soul render, ring of hotek 265 pts

Master, battle standard, Standard of hag greaf, great weapon, heavy armour, shield, sea dragon cloak, repeater crossbow 164 pts

Master, great weapon, heavy armour, shield, sea dragon cloak, repeater crossbow, pearl of infinitive bleakness, the guiding eye 154 pts

Master, great weapon, heavy armour, sea dragon cloak, repeater crossbow, ring of darkness 142 pts


Core:
5 Dark riders 85 pts
5 Dark riders 85 pts
5 Dark riders 85 pts
Assassin in shade unit, black lotus, rune of khaine, touch of death, repeater handbow, additional handweapon 181 pts

Special:
41 Shades with great weapons, repeater crossbows & bloodshade

Rare:
Hydra 175 pts
Hydra 175 pts



Points: 2249

Models: 67

Power Dice: 2

Dispel Dice:2

Tactic: Point denial. Hydras will depending on army hide behind forest and when the main unit is in combat rush out on the flanks. The main unit got magic resistance 4, all spells against them where the caster score 2 of a kind is a miscast and all ballistic shots vs the unit is at half bs. The unit is also immune to psycology. What do you think?

The Red Scourge
16-09-2008, 07:21
This really sounds like massive fun.

F-U-N, thats how you spell boredom right? :rolleyes:

KingOfStarcraft
16-09-2008, 07:25
This really sounds like massive fun.

F-U-N, thats how you spell boredom right? :rolleyes:

What so boring? All heavy magic/shooting armies will whine I can think. But vs normal armies there will be an epic close combat in the middle of the table :)

Gokamok
16-09-2008, 07:48
Unless DE have a special rule allowing it, you can't have magic resistance 4, since it's capped at max 3:)

I guess this army could be difficult for most unprepared opponents, but anything with heavy shooting is likely to tear you apart. So, the WE army might be at BS2 when shooting at you, but they are still spamming quite a lot of arrows your way and only need to focus on one unit.

I cannot really imagine how you would beat a solid empire/dwarf gunline with this, since Mortars/Hellstorms/Flame Cannons etc. will have the time of their lives firing at a 45-strong unit:D

Btw, is that big unit somehow unbreakable? (Not sure what all your nifty stuff does) If not, then I guess a lot of armies could just charge your front with nasty things and win combat by a lot... How would you handle a Popemobile, Steam Tank AND IC knights charging you at the same time?

KingOfStarcraft
16-09-2008, 09:03
Unless DE have a special rule allowing it, you can't have magic resistance 4, since it's capped at max 3:)

I guess this army could be difficult for most unprepared opponents, but anything with heavy shooting is likely to tear you apart. So, the WE army might be at BS2 when shooting at you, but they are still spamming quite a lot of arrows your way and only need to focus on one unit.

I cannot really imagine how you would beat a solid empire/dwarf gunline with this, since Mortars/Hellstorms/Flame Cannons etc. will have the time of their lives firing at a 45-strong unit:D

Btw, is that big unit somehow unbreakable? (Not sure what all your nifty stuff does) If not, then I guess a lot of armies could just charge your front with nasty things and win combat by a lot... How would you handle a Popemobile, Steam Tank AND IC knights charging you at the same time?

Not unbreakable but LD10 reroll with immune to psycology. The whole unit got always strike first.

Valaraukar
16-09-2008, 09:45
Anyone with character assassins will be laughing I guess like flying vampire or Greater Daemon as without two of your characters that army is really doomed. Depends how well you think you can protect them doesn't seem like either has particularly good save etc. but I am also unsure as to what all of your items do.

Also I agree with gokamok magic resistance is listed in the rulebook as 1-3 suggesting you would be wasting the fourth null talisman.

TheDarkDaff
16-09-2008, 10:52
It doesn't really matter. You just need a big nasty combat character to charge in an Challenge every round. You just need to overcome a Static res of 2 (outnumber + BSB) and you big unit looses combat and has to take a break test.

Cold One Knights are the better option for this as the Unit Standar can take the ASF banner freeing up your BSB to take the Hydra Banner or the Banner of Nagarythe. Although the sheer volume of shooting that unit can put out is pretty scaring it will be directed at a single unit a turn.

Conotor
16-09-2008, 11:20
What so boring? All heavy magic/shooting armies will whine I can think. But vs normal armies there will be an epic close combat in the middle of the table :)

Err... You would shoot down most normal armies to half their size by the time they get to you. (Slight exaduration).

I expect you to get alot of draws where your opponent hides behind terrain.

The rest will be losses where a dragon charges your unit and challenges the lord. He doesn't even have the pendant! He will die, and ur unit will break, as it only has static CR 1.

Lordsaradain
16-09-2008, 11:33
This army could be pretty fun to face, once at least. :)

I'll try to convine my buddy into using it (proxing warriors or whatever as shades) just to have fun trying to defeat it.

Then I'd like to see him take on my epic Bloodknight army:

Vampire, Dread Knight, Summon Creatures of the Night, Blood Drinker
Vampire, Dread Knight, Walking Death, BSB, The Drakenhof Banner
*Wight King, Barded Skeletal Steed, Sword of Kings

20 Zombies
20 Zombies

4 Fell Bats

6 Blood Knights, Full Command, Flag of Blood Keep

1300pts

*This guy accepts and issues challenges. With T5, W3, 2+ save and regeneration he is one tough nut to crack, and he will score a killing blow 50% of the time.

I've only tried the list once; my bloodknight regiment survived a simultaneous charge from 3 high elf chariots, 10 dragon princes and two mounted nobles, and when calculating combat resolution it was a draw. The next turn the enemy was slaughtered... :)

EvC
16-09-2008, 12:37
Anyone with character assassins will be laughing I guess like flying vampire or Greater Daemon as without two of your characters that army is really doomed.

Not really. First of all they have to survive ~90 RBT shots, although that's not crazy powerful. Then one of the unimportant character challenges, and I wouldn't fancy a possibly already wounded Vampire's chances against 3 hatred attacks wounding on 2+. A Bloodthirster would be problems but even he can expect 2-3 wounds from the stand and shoot, plus if he can see the unit to charge them, then they can see him too, and will probably have done 2-3 wounds already with shooting.

It's just a one-trick pony army, I've played one just like it. It's entirely dice-dependent, and if the opponent doesn't lose his head and thinks smartly he'll be able to overwhelm the unit with multiple charges, and you'll probably lose.

logan054
16-09-2008, 13:20
well dosnt that look like great fun... Basically this list says to me "i keep losing, i need a army that requires 0 tactics to win" Well great, you achieved this, have a cookie and pat yourself on the back. I think its rather sad that winning could mean that much you would even conceive using such a list, still i think flammers of tzeentch would be very funny against that unit and maybe some screamers.

Makaber
16-09-2008, 13:58
Like all other other "unbeatable" novelty lists, this is stupid and destructive Warhammer. The problem with this and other cheese lists (I don't like the term personally but it gets the point across) isn't that they're too good, however they are specialised to such an extreme degree it takes an equally specialised army to reliably beat it. Most other, more conventional lists will have a very hard, and extremely boring time against it.

That said, it's by no means unbeatable. While it puts out a lot of shots, it can only target one enemy unit per turn. A sacrificial unit can charge one side, absorb any stand and shoot reaction, and tie up the characters in the front rank, before another unit slams the recently created flank for a massive win. Also it's easily defeated by anyone using similarly ****** lists, such as huge gunlines, "inventive" double Steamtank combos, and the "clever" all-chariot Beastman list.

So by all means, go ahead and play a stupid, destructive list against your friends' similar Greek football takes on it, and relish in your others "shrewd" "tactical" "understanding" of the game. Personally I'll enjoy games that are actually enjoyable.

blurred
16-09-2008, 14:37
Wow. That's just nasty. :)

Give your dreadlord the Pendant of Khaeleth and the shade unit is almost impossible to beat.

The Red Scourge
16-09-2008, 15:05
What so boring? All heavy magic/shooting armies will whine I can think. But vs normal armies there will be an epic close combat in the middle of the table :)

Epic?? A lot of dice will be rolled yes, but there won't be any maneuvering or tactical choices.

You could just as well play yatzee :rolleyes:

KingOfStarcraft
16-09-2008, 15:29
[QUOTE=Lordsaradain;2944768]This army could be pretty fun to face, once at least. :)


*This guy accepts and issues challenges. With T5, W3, 2+ save, regeneration he is one tough nut to crack, ad he will score a killing blow 50% of the time.[/I]


QUOTE]

Alright I accept challenge with the assassin. The assassin strikes first. Average 6 attacks. After rerolls 5.34 hit. Average you get atleast 1 killing blow as he can reroll 1's to wound. And regeneration does not work vs killingblow so he should be as good as dead. Even if I get very unlucky and fail to kill the wightlord you hit 1 attack in average and there is 1/3 chance that he gets killed. Your battle standard dies first because of the inititiative of my assassin. After that I hit with 13 str 6 attacks with reroll to hit killing your whole bloodknight unit in average ;)

Makarion
16-09-2008, 15:46
Have you realised that not many mature players will actually want to play a game with you after seeing that aberration in action once? Not that it's all that good (it has strong points, but not enough static CR and not enough gunline defense), but because it doesn't lead to much fun. I'd rather watch grass grow, myself.

Chain
17-09-2008, 00:12
Depending on who get the first turn you could end up with a large unit of no importance.

If I were to start and had the Knowledge I do now about it and use the DE cavelry army I just made for similar points.

Every regiment would be riding away from your shades at a speed your infantry can't keep up with.
The Hydra would be using it's breath on your Shades If It survive that is.

I'll have a fight with your Hydras and DRs.



Also is it seriously possible to have a standard in a regiment of Shades?
It makes little sense if it is.

Lord Dan
17-09-2008, 01:51
This point denial thing is getting really silly. Someone starts making big blocks of Eternal Guard, and look where we end up...

You're succeptable to too many things. Template attacks, chariot impact hits, high BS attacks, characters who are better than yours...it's not technically point denial, it's just annoying.

I see the first Bloodthirster or magic heavy army (of which there are a lot now) you come up against having a field day.

Not to mention it's stupid.

PARTYCHICORITA
17-09-2008, 03:24
Wow. That's just nasty. :)

Give your dreadlord the Pendant of Khaeleth and the shade unit is almost impossible to beat.

Agree with this comment.
Undead armies however will wear your army out.

StormCrow
17-09-2008, 05:10
If you wanted to be a real jerk you could swap the shades for menghils manflayers.

I can see the funny side of a list like this, i would love to try it out once just to see how it would go. But if you rocked up to a tournament you'd better be prepared to have your teeth knocked out...

And by the way I reckon a forest spirit army would hammer this list pretty damn hard. No amount of shooting and S6 attacks will save you from the trees! A treeman ancient would happily rip your assassin or any of those characters apart.

Col. Dash
17-09-2008, 12:49
Question since I am at work and do not have the book in front of me, impact hits from a chariot vs an assassins strike first. Which happens since in practical theory the impact hits should happen before hand to hand? I am guessing the assassin although common sense points the other way.

PARTYCHICORITA
17-09-2008, 13:19
Page 63, impact hits go before attacks so chariot gets to do impact hits, then Assasin attacks, then rest of the unit and finally the crew of the chariot and the mounts.

EvC
17-09-2008, 16:20
Impacts also go before challenge declarations, so an assassin couldn't stop the impacts by challenging.

Lord Dan
17-09-2008, 17:13
Master
Ring of Darkness, HA, shield, sea dragon cloak, GW

Master
Ring of Hotek, Armour of Darkness, GW

Master
BSB, Deathmask, HA, shield, sea dragon cloak, GW

Master
Null talisman x 3, HA, shield, sea dragon cloak, GW

Assassin
Additional hand weapon, Touch of Death, Rune of Khaine

10 Crossbowmen

10 Crossbowmen

10 Crossbowmen

80 Black Guard
Full command, Standard of Hag Graef, Kouran

4 Bolt Throwers


There, I think that adequately ruins the point of the game.

Gatsby
18-09-2008, 06:50
well dosnt that look like great fun... Basically this list says to me "i keep losing, i need a army that requires 0 tactics to win" Well great, you achieved this, have a cookie and pat yourself on the back. I think its rather sad that winning could mean that much you would even conceive using such a list.

no if he wanted an "I'm going to always win and without the use of my brain at that" army, he'd play demons...

seems interesting, my lists usually use 10 shades with assassin and master in it

Artinam
18-09-2008, 07:58
Aren't Black Guard limited to max 20 models a unit?

blurred
18-09-2008, 11:50
There, I think that adequately ruins the point of the game.

Could you elaborate? What is "the point of the game"?

EvC
18-09-2008, 12:11
I hear some people play for "fun". Yes, you may be confused by that...

blurred
18-09-2008, 12:13
I hear some people play for "fun". Yes, you may be confused by that...

Ooh. Snappy snap snap. I hear some people consider competitiveness fun. "Yes, you may be confused by that". :rolleyes:

Btw, I am not one of those players: my regular Empire army wouldn't really stand a chance against this horror. Nonetheless, I understand people who want to play competetively.

EvC
18-09-2008, 12:47
"Competitive" and "fun" do not have to be mutually exclusive, but many people you can't have one without the other, which is the real problem. To be honest though a 40 Shade army isn't so bad- but adding the double Hydras does drive the army over the top and ruins pretty much any hope at fun for the unlucky opponent. But if you're playing to beat your opponent at all costs then fun is usually a secondary concern- or reliant upon winning in the first place.

blurred
18-09-2008, 13:34
"Competitive" and "fun" do not have to be mutually exclusive, but many people you can't have one without the other, which is the real problem.

I agree that they are not exclusive. However, I really can't see what the problem is. When competition is involved there are and always will be people who play with "win at all costs" mentality and I say its fine: its not wrong, its just different. Let them play that way.

I really can't stand people who come to these boards and get on their high horses because their idea of the game is "the point of the game" and some people don't fit into that mould. What if KingOfStarcraft's gaming group is highly competitive (ie. WAAC) and they're having a great time. Is it wrong? :eyebrows:

EvC
18-09-2008, 15:02
The point of the game is fun, end of discussion. "Win at all costs" mentality specifically precludes fun, thus I'm bound to point it out. If, yes, his group only cares about coming up with the tricksiest lists that require the smallest amount of skill to use, then sure, that's great for them, and this one is top of the pile. As long as they realise that people that they play with this army without expecting it are likely to feel like they've just wasted a few hours of their life playing the game.

What disturbs me the most is the attitude it gives people. KoS takes this army, and beats a player who hadn't prepared for it (You can prepare for a hard army, but one that is built around taking advantage of the fact that Gav Thorpe did not put an upper limit on the number of models, is not one that people should reasonably expect to face) and has no fun as a result, then that player goes away and comes up with a new army designed to beat it. So he comes back with 20 Wraiths, and plays his mate with a Lizardmen Oldblood army (one magic weapon in the entire army), and stuffs him. So the Lizardmen player has had no fun, but wants to be able to compete, so he brings out the 2nd Gen Slann and all the tricks he can find on the internet. Then he plays a balanced Empire army and beats it down as well, so next time the Empire player decides he needs two Steam Tanks and a War Altar to compete. And the cycle just keeps going and going, until everyone is using the same style of one-dimensional simplistic lists, none of which remotely resemble a "Warhammer" army, or what the game should be about (Going by the background). And anyone who doesn't feel like buying the stupid stuff or playing Daemons either has to lose every boring game, or stop playing. The difference is, if I ask someone to use a fun army, they can still play a game, have a chance of winning (Well, maybe not if they feel they must resort to trick armies), and have fun. If someone is using a WAAC army (and so are more likely to play in a WAAC mindset), then their opponent's chances of winning are reduced vastly- but more importantly, the chances of either player having fun decrease too. The "fun" player doesn't do any harm to his opponent when he asks his opponent to play fair (and in fact, the WAAC player will become a better player when he takes the stabilisers off his bike, very handy for when he does use the WAAC lists in tournaments), but the "WAAC" player can ruin the game.

But that's all worst-case scenario; best case scenario and this is one of many armies that KoS uses, and he has normal, fun games most the time :)

And end rant. I'm feeling very ranty today :D

Lord Dan
18-09-2008, 18:56
Wow, EvC. You just stepped on the throat of every powergamer on this forum. Well played.

Suicide Messiah
18-09-2008, 19:20
I agree with blurred on this. Theres nothing wrong with powergaming in a competitive environment. Pitting your wits against your opponent from the moment you decide which army to use. I played magic the gathering for years which was insanely competitive, and i had a great time. Losing just made me go off and reconstruct my list. For powergamers the armylist is simply where the fun begins. The problems arise when you get powergamers waltzing in and stomping all over casual gamers. That is definitely not cool.

Lord Dan
18-09-2008, 19:35
So what you're essentially saying is even if you're a good general with a desire to win, if you don't have a decked out army, stay out off the porch?

What I'm hearing tournament players admit here is that if you don't take a power army, you won't win a tournament. I still can't believe people are willing to admit the armies they play have that much sway on the games. That's a problem, not something to accept.

Suicide Messiah
18-09-2008, 20:08
Thats down to the very nature of warhammer though. It isnt chess.

Every army has a list of units to draw from. Some units are better than others and whilst all things (well most) have their uses there are always going to be certain combos that work best. Or a way of maxin out on a certain troop. This can be used for flavour (DE corsair army) or some people may use it to create a super cheese army. My point is that with this sort of system theres always going to be an optimum armylist for winning games. You may need to tweak it to fight certain races but it will generally be the same.

Are you saying that you want to take a sub par army to a tournament and win? If so then obviously your chances would be less than those who go with a list designed to win. What i was saying is that its best to know and accept your environment. If your at a tourney then go there to win. If your having a friendly game with your mates play whatever the hell you want.

Unltimately there are many aspects to war and warhammer is also more than how you move your minis around on the table. Some people are better at the whole math hammer thing than others and get enjoyment from trying to get the very best out of their list.

Ozorik
18-09-2008, 20:10
If you take a fluffy army to a tournement and win then surely that means much more than bringin a point and click list?

I really, really hate min/maxed armies.

Lord Dan
18-09-2008, 23:31
Are you saying that you want to take a sub par army to a tournament and win?

Balance shouldn't mean "sub par."

Gatsby
19-09-2008, 01:21
I played magic the gathering for years which was insanely competitive, and i had a great time. Losing just made me go off and reconstruct my list.

Magic the gathering though has a VERY good checks and balance system, if they find something broken, they fix it almost immediately, GW wont fix a mistake (after all in their minds they never make mistakes...) until they redo a codex, at which point they might make more mistakes to either A: make an army to easily made cheese or B: make an army so broken it can no longer compete.

The only way to fix this mistake is to overpower every army from here on out to match the level of demons, and that's unfair to HE, VC, OaG and DE. Because now all of them will be weak in comparison to the new armies, all because they need to re balance the game to one army.

Doctor Know
19-09-2008, 03:40
Characters:

Dreadlord, shield, sea dragon cloak, heavy armour, repeater crossbow, null talisman x4, soul render, ring of hotek 265 pts

Master, battle standard, Standard of hag greaf, great weapon, heavy armour, shield, sea dragon cloak, repeater crossbow 164 pts

Master, great weapon, heavy armour, shield, sea dragon cloak, repeater crossbow, pearl of infinitive bleakness, the guiding eye 154 pts

Master, great weapon, heavy armour, sea dragon cloak, repeater crossbow, ring of darkness 142 pts


Core:
5 Dark riders 85 pts
5 Dark riders 85 pts
5 Dark riders 85 pts
Assassin in shade unit, black lotus, rune of khaine, touch of death, repeater handbow, additional handweapon 181 pts

Special:
41 Shades with great weapons, repeater crossbows & bloodshade

Rare:
Hydra 175 pts
Hydra 175 pts



Points: 2249

Models: 67

Power Dice: 2

Dispel Dice:2

Tactic: Point denial. Hydras will depending on army hide behind forest and when the main unit is in combat rush out on the flanks. The main unit got magic resistance 4, all spells against them where the caster score 2 of a kind is a miscast and all ballistic shots vs the unit is at half bs. The unit is also immune to psycology. What do you think?

Well, firstly, I would be remiss in not pointing out that you have at least one illegal item combination in your list; a model cannot carry both the Ring of Hotek and one or more Null Talismans (you may carry more then one of the NTs, but there is no exception given to allow you to carry another talisman).

Beyond that, I'm not sure this can truly be classified as a "power list" at least not as I understand the term. A power list is tailored to fit the metagame, no? In that regard, this list seems singularly poor, assuming that we accept the current "kings of the hill" so to speak, are Daemons of Chaos and Vampire Counts, both of whom would have less difficulty with this list then a "balanced" list.

Against a VC 10+ PD list, your firepower will be outpaced by their ability to raise troops, your 2 DD are a speedbump (and you have a transparent lack of dispel scrolls), and your 2 anti-magic items are both useless against 1 PD IoN. Your characters are chained to the main unit, so you have to pray there are no wraiths/spirit host around, since your characters can't go hunting for them before they flank you.

With only 1 major unit, you have a heck of a stand and shoot, but you're stuck shooting one unit at a time, and against VC, who can throw multiple sacrificial units at you at once, you're simply stuck. And of course, once you're stuck in with his fodder, he's free to maneuver his heavy hitters to the flanks and Van Hel's them in, no fear of stand and shoot.

Against the DoC builds I see your even more screwed. As EvC points out, your stand and shoot will maul the bog standard BT, but for 160 points the DoC player can get a unit of Seekers with the Siren Standard... so yeah, ouch.

Of course, once the BT gets in there, the lack of a pendant means there are no characters available that can tie up a BT for any length of time. With a static combat res of 3 (banner, BSB, outnumber), you can't afford to try and grind down a BT.

In the end, it is indeed an "all eggs in one basket" list. If that's fun for you I guess just fix the illegal bits and go to town. That said it doesn't strike me as a very competitive list in the current environment, nor would it be likely to have many queuing up to play you (well, except the guys with lists that house you, that is).