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View Full Version : Vanguard expensive !!



shin'keiro
16-09-2008, 16:19
vanguard fast attack marines (to go with Shrike)

lightening claws
jump packs
basic save
1 wound each

Each marine is more than 4 times the cost of a current tactical marine !!

a squad of 5 is over 300 points!

seems a bit much to me...

Its better to go with assault termies - they get lightening claws and an inv. save for less points

TzeentchForPresident
16-09-2008, 16:33
Why the need to give all 5 of them lightning claws?

x-esiv-4c
16-09-2008, 16:39
extra extra killy?

Disciple of Caliban
16-09-2008, 18:17
Yeah, Vanguard can get seriously killy (i like the idea of a squad of them with T Hammers, they just look so cool on power armoured guys, and i'd love to see a squad of jump packed armed, T Hammer wielding, Veteran marines of death), but they pay the price for their (considerable) abilities

Latro_
16-09-2008, 18:35
Yea both the new vet units have the potential to be very expensive. It is a bit daft to give them all lightning claws.

However cool and killy the new vet units are, they die like normal marines and there are a whole lot more competitive choices in the codex for your pts.

olmsted
16-09-2008, 18:45
that 18 inch range might have something to do with models armed with power weapons that reroll to wounds.

ChaosBeast
16-09-2008, 21:28
yeah, i was looking at the codex and a 10 man squad with jump packs thunder hammers and storm shields would be 785 points!

even if they wiped out a baneblade and a landraider they wouldnt make that back, and dont even get me started in normal games. ;)

Partisan Rimmo
16-09-2008, 21:34
Stupidly over-upgraded squad is stupidly expensive in points. Newsflash of the century.

Honestly though, how much were you expecting them to cost??

olmsted
16-09-2008, 22:09
Stupidly over-upgraded squad is stupidly expensive in points. Newsflash of the century.

Honestly though, how much were you expecting them to cost??

quoted for awesome truthyness.

usually strong as feck units cost quite a good bit...

matt_17
16-09-2008, 22:19
Most codices can make one or two retardedly expensive units... they usually fail horribly. There is a time and place for vanguard veterans, I don't think that place is as the most expensive unit in a marine army.

samiens
16-09-2008, 22:34
That unit is such overkill! And it still won't wipe out a mob of boyz! Maybe try a small unit to give a supporting assault- I'm planning on 5 men with power weapons for clearing out my firebase with a heroic intervention guided by locator beacons on a drop pod.

Seriously though, the marine codex is full of this kind of unit- its flashy but uncompetitive except when used really well. The cost balances the codex- which is good because there's cool toys- but they aren't inherently broken!

Lord Inquisitor
16-09-2008, 22:49
If you want stupid numbers of power weapon attacks, the Honour Guard (with 4 attacks base!) look a much more practical cost.

Ronin_eX
16-09-2008, 22:59
Then again comparing costs to the DA/BA codices most core units are 10-15 points cheaper. So make the stupid expensive Vanguard unit, buy an Assault Squad or two (each with a powerfist sergeant costs 45 points less than the DA equivalent) and take a few units like Landspeeders (10 points less) and maybe a 4xML Dev Squad (15 points less) and you've made up the extra costs in point savings.

Now I wouldn't expect non-DA/BA players to see it this way since they are likely unaware of the cost-cuts done but to me it looks like a steal when you look at the army as a whole. I certainly couldn't justify a unit as expensive as that in a DA army but with all the point cuts you guys get it seems silly to think of most of these new units as expensive as I see almost every other unit being cheaper than mine. Hell one Assault Squad wit a PF and you have made up the cost of Sternguard Vets over the base cost of my Company Vets. So for the same points as me getting a full Assault Squad and a Veteran unit with no speciality equipment at all (bolt pistol/chainsword, no transport or way of moving fast) normal marines get that same Assault Squad and a unit of veterans that can face almost any threat in the game.

Granted Vanguard are more costly overall but with a few of those cost-cutting units I don't see it as much of a problem. Or just make a more sane unit and use all those points saved for other toys.

Seriously it is staggering looking at all the cost differences between the two codices. What's worse is most of the marine core units cost less in the new book while being an overall improvement on the DA ones (Combat Tactics). If that isn't the definition of imbalance than I don't know what is.

willydstyle
17-09-2008, 00:44
I think vanguard vets in a rhino or drop pod are the way to go. And don't tool up the whole squad, but maybe just one ore two models.

exsulis
17-09-2008, 01:51
Remember you still have to buy the JP for them!! At least I did the first time I created a list with them in it. :(

Lord Inquisitor
17-09-2008, 01:53
Yeah, they look incredibly cheap before you realise that they don't come with JPs included, don't they?

jimbob
17-09-2008, 11:19
The thought of combining a 5-man squad + jps + 2 claws each + shrike is...well its beautiful and deadly if you ask me...first turn assault, with 20 attacks from the squad on the charge plus shrike's 5 rending and...okay, yeah its never going to make its points back, but its still cool!

Brucopeloso
17-09-2008, 11:57
The thought of combining a 5-man squad + jps + 2 claws each + shrike is...well its beautiful and deadly if you ask me...first turn assault, with 20 attacks from the squad on the charge plus shrike's 5 rending and...

And they get wiped out by shooting from nearby units after they kill the entire unit they charged in a single CC turn........ :p

Pricey SM units are most welcome, is the humble tactical squads I fear!

Askari
17-09-2008, 12:06
300 pts for 5 models?
Pah, in 3rd Ed Chaos I could make one T4 3+ save 1 Wound model cost infinite points.

:p

But really, they should be expensive, they can Deep Strike, assault on the same turn, charge 18" over terrain for 12", are still quite hardy, and with a ridiculous amount of re-roll to wound power weapon attacks.

Infact, aren't they similarly priced to the old Shrike's Wing? I remember they cost a lot each also.

willydstyle
17-09-2008, 12:08
A lot of times "getting points back" is not necessarily important to victory.

I think in most situations that squad is so overkill it's likely to wipe out whatever it runs into. it will then be deep into your opponents territory. Most armies will have to spend so much resources to kill the squad, in addition to not being able to advance their own army towards objectives that despite the squad "not getting it's points back" it will help you determine the flow of battle.

However, I still recommend that if you wanted to do the "vanguard vets with shrike" route that you don't upgrade every vet to the max. Leave it at 3 or 4 with upgraded weapons and you'll be able to have more models, more attacks, and more wounds. Plus you'll be more likely to force the combat through your opponents turn as well.

It's a unit that can definitely have it's uses, but is very pricey in return.

Disciple of Caliban
17-09-2008, 13:47
^^ But they dont have to spend much in the way of resources to kill the squad. Vanguard veterans are fun, but wont survive long once they get within rapid fire range of people. They're still only T4, 1W 3+ save guys. So, going with the lightning claw armed guy thats mentioned by the OP, i can get 4 tactical marines (the odds get better with other armies, but i'll use marines as the example). The vanguard veteran should be killed by about 9 shots (6 hits, 3 wounds, 1 failed save). The 4 marines can put out 8 shots with one round of rapid firing (and yes, you can still rapid fire troops with jump packs because you can effectively rapid fire 18" if you move first), plus any shots they get at range.

And thats just basic marines with bolters, the squads survivability looks even worse when you consider that a single leman russ has a good chance of dropping 5+ with one shot, thus gaining twice its point cost in one shot. And better yet, what a dark reaper heavy army could do such a squad.

10 Vanguard Vets with lighting claws 600+
10 Dark reapers (inc. 2 exarchs with tempest launchers) 450ish (no codex to hand)

8 reaper launchers gives 16 shots, 10.6 hits, 7 kills

Ok, i wont even bother with the 4 shots from the tempest launchers and their AP3 templates. The reapers would destroy such a squad in one turn. My Biel Tan army might actually be adjusted so i can add a 2nd unit of reapers just in case any marine players are dense enough to try such a squad

willydstyle
17-09-2008, 13:54
That's true, but that's why I advocated more guys with less upgrades for the "sacrifice" squad. Also, a good general will change his plan if it is obvious that his opponent has an easy answer for the squad.

Still, the sacrifice of an expensive squad has often given me large victories in the past.

Stingray_tm
17-09-2008, 13:57
Oh poor, poor Marine players.

Now you have a potentially game-breaking unit, that at least is priced approbriately...

Hey, consider this:
What would you think, if your Vanguard models had 2 wounds, but a 5+ save, rending instead of power weapons, were able to deep strike only in terrain (with a real chance of hurting himself in the process), gave away 1 KP per model and cost 80 points.

Would that be better?

willydstyle
17-09-2008, 14:21
I would think that Lictors are pretty overpriced too... except for the fact that they give you a bonus on reserve rolls, which is very powerful.

Lord Inquisitor
17-09-2008, 15:12
I'm not convinced that lightning claws are that worthwhile - a simple power weapon would perhaps be better (3 attacks vs 2 attacks with re-roll to wound?). Against WS4, T4, 3x0.5x0.5 = 0.75 or 2x0.5x0.75=0.75. Heh. Equal numbers of "average kills", but power weapons have a higher potential number of kills. So on the charge lightning claws would be better, but otherwise power weapon are probably superior but it doesn't make much difference.

Ultimately, there really isn't any point in upgrading them. 10 Vanguard cost 325 as it is - and can do incredible amounts of damage with 4 attacks each on the charge. Maybe throw in a powerfist just in case.