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View Full Version : RED THIRST: possible revelation about the II. and XI. Legions?



Eulenspiegel
17-09-2008, 07:29
* SPOILERS for RED THIRST (Swallow) ahead! *
(Wouldnīt spoil you the entire book, but the setup.)


The books describes in great detail Chapter Master Seth of the Flesh Tearerīs envy for and disrespect of the Blood Angels.

Following the events of the horrible previous two Blood Angels books, the Blood Angels chapter is severely diminished, as it seems even to the point that their existence is threatened. To avoid that, Dante approaches the Masters of their successor Chapters with a major request.
In private, Seth has a different idea, and suggests to an underling that the Blood Angels be disbanded and distributed among their successors.

The Flesh Tearers captain says something along the lines of "you cannot disband a first founding Chapter", to which Seth replies: "Know your Astartes history, it has been done before".

This could mean two things:
1.) Seth is referring to the first founding Legionsī disbanding into Chapters, following the Heresy.
If he had this in mind, Sethīs retort would have been unfitting: the first founding Legions havenīt been entirely erased, they only were downgraded to Chapters. Their names remained.
2.) Seth is referring to the II. and XI. Legion.

Yes, most likely itīs alternative 1. and Swallow (or Seth) just wasnīt being precise.

I find the possibility that Seth was alluding to the second alternative intriguing, for what it would mean:
- Every Astartes (maybe only the higher ranking ones) knows what happened to the II. and IX. Legions.
- Marines of those Legions were distributed amongst the other 18 ones, following some major event.
- This event most likely had something to do with their Primarchs as they disappeared (from records at least), but most Astartes of their Legions werenīt deemed irredeemable but remained in service. Albeit in a different Legion.


/draws breath
Longish thread, mostly based on conjecture ... what do you think?

destroyerlord
17-09-2008, 09:31
Well its a cool possibility. I prefer to think that the two 'missing' legions still exist in some form, and that they would make a much better story arc for GW than the 'imperials are fighting orks then chaos comes and pwnzorz' sort of stuff that goes on. This is in reference to GW fluff not BL.
Then there is the possibility that maybe the other two primarchs were never found during the great crusade, implying that they could still be at large, perhaps acting as gods to their own mini-empires? (Not sure on that one, it could be that all 20 were found by the emperor).
Still it seems possible that one or both were disbanded, although under what circumstances that would happen are questionable.

Terror of the East
17-09-2008, 09:42
I would say he is referring to box number one, It is extremely doubtful that the two missing legions and what happend to them is known to any spacemarines as part of a marine history lesson :) , If all marines knew this info surely at some point one marine would spill this info.

destroyerlord
17-09-2008, 10:59
Good point, consider that the fallen Angels are probably the Dark Angels best kept secret, known only to those that reach the ranks of the inner circle, yet every noob and his dog knows half the DA turned to chaos during the heresy.

mistformsquirrel
17-09-2008, 14:02
Its an interesting thought, certainly...

But there's a couple inconsistencies that make me seriously question the possibility. Firstly: Why erase their record if the Marines in question weren't irredeemable? The Traitor Legions aren't erased, merely kept as secret as possible from the general public; Space Marines however know 'whats up' in regard to them. So if a small contingent of those chapters fell, but the rest were OK... why vanish them? Why not simply explain the disbanding?

Second - if nothing bad actually happened, but the legions in question were simply crushed horribly during the Heresy (Perhaps they were caught in a particularly vicious trap that ground their numbers down below sustainable levels); that would make sense with their marines being split between existing legions/chapters... but again, why erase history?

I realize the Imperium sometimes does things that don't make much sense, but the disappearing of a pair of Legions is far far out of scope unless there's something major we don't know. (My pet theory being that one of the legions at least was disappeared so that if Horus won, they could carry on the fight and Horus would have difficulty finding them. After the Heresy, no one was able to contact them due to all the frenzied rebuilding. That of course is just a pet theory and has no real evidence)

Nevertheless, I think its an interesting thought. Perhaps something I'm not thinking of could have triggered such a situation.

Son of Sanguinius
17-09-2008, 16:00
Read The Lightning Tower if you can get a hold of one.

*Spoilers Below*





Rogal Dorn describes the two lost Primarchs and their legions as "abberations" that "were not heeded". The implication is very much that either the lost legions were corrupted somehow (though not necessarily by Chaos).

Mechanicus
17-09-2008, 16:38
Son of Sanguinius:
Actually, he said "Their separate tragedies had seemed like aberrations. Had they, in fact, been warnings that no one had heeded?" Which, to me, indicates that their tragedies had something to do with betrayal of the Emperor or the Imperium (whether by military force, or by absence of military force (refusal) or even by suicide), since to say that they could have been warnings to the current primarchs implies that they are now in a situation which can be related to the early Heresy; and, as you said, not necessarily to do with Chaos. Especially since his emotions at that point seem to be almost sad about their deaths, though whether with pity or disappointment, I think we'll never know. Either way, there's no anger there that I can see.I would say that it's possible, nay, probable, that the two missing legions were disbanded after their primarchs were killed or whatever. I also think that it's no coincidence that Horus was apparently alone with the Emperor for thirty years; the precise amount of time that, on average, three primarchs should have been found in (200 / 20 = 10 years per primarch).

As to why the records were erased: In IA: Renegades, it mentions that once a traitor chapter is destroyed, all records of it are erased, since they are no longer a threat. I would assume the same for the missing legions. Like, say, if the primarch betrayed the Emperor and was killed for it, but the legion stayed loyal (or some, at least, and the rest was destroyed), and being disbanded. Then, it would no longer exist, and thus not be a threat. There's no telling whether one or both was disbanded though. One may have been completely destroyed.

MrBigMr
17-09-2008, 16:46
Hmm... The idea that the Legions were disbanded or merged with others is an interesting one, but there's plenty against such an idea. For one, each Legion had their own gene-seeds, so putting 2nd Legion Marines into... lets say 5th Legion ones is not really practical.

I think nothing major happened to them and it's just a case of records being lost. Surely there are smaller records, but the "official" records are missing. Maybe during the Age of Apostasy when many other records were lost as well. Or maybe the data banks holding the information was merely corrupted and broke down. Who knows. Surely some old chapter libraries and such places hold the info. Admech is sure to have a stock of 2nd and 11th legion gene-seeds.


Then there is the possibility that maybe the other two primarchs were never found during the great crusade, implying that they could still be at large, perhaps acting as gods to their own mini-empires? (Not sure on that one, it could be that all 20 were found by the emperor).
HH series does state that all primarchs were found and all primarchs led their legions.

Son of Sanguinius
17-09-2008, 16:50
@Mechanicus

I had considered that as well, but I dismissed it because such betrayal of the Emperor seems so unthinkable to the Primarchs and their legions. Would it really be so shocking if two legions had already become turncoats?

PondaNagura
17-09-2008, 17:09
i think it speaks true to that saying "knowledge is power, hide it well"
where as the space marines often know more than the average imperial citizen is lead to know

it was the last straw for the 1k sons, when Magnus sent his warning and shattered the fragile wards of the Emperor's new highway system [pff, contractors]. they were supposed to be stricken form the records and eliminated as well.

i haven't read the [I]Red Thirst book so i don't know the actual context of the conversation, but the soul drinkers, while not a first founding chapter, were stricken from the records.

Leftenant Gashrog
17-09-2008, 17:31
For one, each Legion had their own gene-seeds, so putting 2nd Legion Marines into... lets say 5th Legion ones is not really practical.


Why not exactly? The Iron Warriors Legion includes marines created from captured Imperial Fist geneseed..

Mechanicus
17-09-2008, 17:53
I had considered that as well, but I dismissed it because such betrayal of the Emperor seems so unthinkable to the Primarchs and their legions. Would it really be so shocking if two legions had already become turncoats?A good point, but it's more of a shock when someone who you have known for years (perhaps over a century), and who you know is dedicated to the Emperor and his ideals, suddenly and without warning turns on him than one or two primarchs that most would not likely have met or talked to in any depth turns traitor perhaps a hundred and fifty years before. :) Not only that, but especially so when no one talks about these missing primarchs or their fates.

Son of Sanguinius
17-09-2008, 18:16
Everything about those legions is eradicated, like mistformsquirrel said. There is no conclusive evidence about anything concerning them other than the fact that they existed at all, and even that is only known to a select few within the universe. The Emperor (I'm assuming it was him) made certain that they were stamped from the histories.

*Spoilers Below*

I think at the time of the Lightning Tower, Dorn has little understanding of Chaos and its seductive ways. If that's true, he is probably referring to the "abberations" as some form of betrayal or sedition (or possibly physical corruption, though it seems unlikely). Something those legions did, or would have done, forced the seemingly gullible Emperor of Mankind to obliterate them in almost every sense of the word.

Maybe the Emperor foresaw that they would betray him and turn to Chaos, so he destroyed them outright. Maybe the Primarchs were corrupted within the warp and were destroyed when found and their legions were destroyed/disbanded etc.

My personal favorite theory is presented in an awesome fanfic story called Rise of the Tau, which forum member Razor Devil has been so kind to repost here in the Stories and Art fourm.

*Spoilers Below*

The two Primarchs, called Gog and Magog, are actually pariahs, along with their legions, and they are kept sealed away far beneath Terra where the Emperor's light keeps their suffocating power hidden.

MrBigMr
17-09-2008, 18:38
Why not exactly? The Iron Warriors Legion includes marines created from captured Imperial Fist geneseed..
1. That is after they fell to Chaos.
2. Chapters doesn't like to mix the seeds. They're the legacy of their primarchs and their heritage. It would be about the same as Brits kicking out the queen for a French president.
3. Last time gene-seeds were mixed by the Imperium, it was a disaster.
4. There is one IW (mentioned) with Fist seeds, and even he is frowned upon by the rest of the IWs. He was created only with part Fist seeds because it was a sloppy job to replenish numbers. So there's probably more such bastards, but like I said, it's not something that the legions do willingly, just to get their numbers up. Imagine the Imperium allying with an alien race to fight a greater threat. But it's not a state practice, nor even liked, but a nessesity.

And all gene-seeds stored are stored by parent legion. So they're not going to suddenly thrown a chapter's seeds with another. Each chapter has their own type of seeds. BA and DA seeds are different, as are SW and IF ones. They've evolved differently, made differently, mutated differently, you name it. You can't throw two together and see what happens to a Marine built from 2nd and 13th legion seeds picked at random. Seeds need to work together perfectly, or they don't work at all. It's not about finding the same size screws, but about a crews that are made from the same metal, mined from the same site, processed the same way and made at the same factory.

That is the problem.

Iuris
17-09-2008, 18:52
I had considered that as well, but I dismissed it because such betrayal of the Emperor seems so unthinkable to the Primarchs and their legions. Would it really be so shocking if two legions had already become turncoats?

A good point, but it's more of a shock when someone who you have known for years (perhaps over a century), and who you know is dedicated to the Emperor and his ideals, suddenly and without warning turns on him than one or two primarchs that most would not likely have met or talked to in any depth turns traitor perhaps a hundred and fifty years before. Not only that, but especially so when no one talks about these missing primarchs or their fates.

How about a possible synthesis:
The two lost legions rebelled. However, due to smaller scale of the rebellion/the Emperor still in charge, they were forgiven/redeemed/restructured or whatever.

Since the Emperor is there to supervise, it works.

Then, the Emperor faces death at Horus' hands, and in the last moments realizes, that attempting to redeem the fallen legions would be too great a threat, and decides any record of previous redemption would be a dangerous precedent, and so he destroys all records?

Son of Sanguinius
17-09-2008, 19:00
Not a bad theory, Iuris. Almost anything is possible.

Then again, with the power of retcon, ANYTHING is possible. Including a tyranid species evolved from furbies.

=Angel=
17-09-2008, 20:32
The Flesh Tearers captain says something along the lines of "you cannot disband a first founding Chapter", to which Seth replies: "Know your Astartes history, it has been done before".
......

- Every Astartes (maybe only the higher ranking ones) knows what happened to the II. and IX. Legions.


Disclaimer- haven't read the book.

In my mind Seth is one of those fringe individuals who is distant enough from the Imperium to know more about it than say, devout Ultramarines. In the Imperium only those really at its core (inquisition/highlords) and those distant from it enough to read 'non sanctioned material' (Eldar, Chaos Lords, renegades, possibly rogue traders or inquisitors again)know the heavy stuff.

I quite like the idea of Seth being a dark horse, Lord of an almost outcast chapter- gaining information that might cause the citizens and Astartes to quail.

Again, its all just conjecture, but fun nonetheless :)

AdeptusOverton
19-09-2008, 09:58
Ok every one knows their heresy history yes...????

At the end of Flight of the Eisenstein the few surviving loyal Death Guard and the Loyal Luna Wolf i.e qurze the half heard i do believe his name was end up on the moon in the company of the Sisters of Silence.

I believe that this subject refers to the surviving loyal members of the Legions that turned traitor with Horus during the HH.At the end of that book when they have defeated the daemon that inhabits one of their numbers body I believe one of the characters refers to these survivors as having a purpose that is yet to be forfilled
it is my belief that they were distributed amongst the other legions refugees without homes.

aim
19-09-2008, 11:00
For some reason I thought they were implying that the survivors would become part of (or woud become the first members of) the inquisition in that part of the book. In fact I'm pretty sure they say something along the lines of them being useful because theyve proven that they recognise treatchery and can resist it. Hmmm, will have to look it up.

AdeptusOverton
19-09-2008, 12:03
That sounds interesting quite a apt theory.....

Clockwork-Knight
19-09-2008, 14:10
Other theories claim that the survivors of the Eisenstein would become the precursor of the reknown Grey Knights, as their geneseed had proven to be quite resistant to the taints of Chaos.

Then again, other rumors claim that the Grey Knights geneseed does come from the Emperor himself.

fracas
20-09-2008, 00:49
someone once suggested that one of the missing legions were infact disbanded and redistributed as techmarines

Clockwork-Knight
20-09-2008, 01:20
Doesn't work, because all Techmarines are from their own chapter, and the Apothecaries would have found out that the geneseed of their Techmarine brothers were completely different than from theirs.
Also, what purpose would there be for making an entire legions of trained warriors into mechanics mostly (yes, Techmarines do fight sometimes, but they mostly stay at home and maintain the equpment)?

Col. Tartleton
20-09-2008, 02:31
Based on the phrasing given, its clearly referring to something nefarious.

None of the 18 known legions were "disbanded" at least not in a way that would divide their numbers into successors entirely (aka disbanding.)

What if the 2 legions stopped fighting and went home...

Thats disbanding, that gets rid of them. That would warrant removal from records at the risk of showing loyalists as "cowards" what if they chose to stop fighting anymore and became pacifists. Dorn seems dismayed by their actions, not angry. Becoming anti war seems like something that would get that feeling from Dorn. It says the events were separate tragedies. Perhaps the Primarchs were killed in battle and the legions packed up and went home.

I think this may fit the scenario best. They aren't traitors, they aren't loyal, they're done, but they weren't destroyed. They took off their armor and put down their bolters and went back to their homeworlds to live out there lives among their people and the Emperor didn't feel like wasting resources going after them so he wrote them out of history. The geneseed wasn't used to make other chapters, because they were assumed to be naturally poor fighters in a galaxy that was so hostile.

Eulenspiegel
20-09-2008, 08:07
Based on the phrasing given,

Good post, and an interesting theory.

Alas, I really think that the most likely explaination is that Seth was expressing himself incorrectly. I think Swallow (Seth) ment to say "Legions have have had Marines taken from them and reassigned before".

Kyrios
20-09-2008, 15:26
[CENTER]* The Flesh Tearers captain says something along the lines of "you cannot disband a first founding Chapter", to which Seth replies: "Know your Astartes history, it has been done before".

This could mean two things:
1.) Seth is referring to the first founding Legionsī disbanding into Chapters, following the Heresy.
If he had this in mind, Sethīs retort would have been unfitting: the first founding Legions havenīt been entirely erased, they only were downgraded to Chapters. Their names remained.
2.) Seth is referring to the II. and XI. Legion.


3. He refers to the traitor legions in the sense that their organization was removed from the Imperial bureuccracy (or something like that).
I.e. The marines of the traitor legion and their insignia etc. still exists in the same way that the people and insignia making up a modern day regiment would still be there if it were disbanded but the personel and insignia is not used.
In that sense of the word the Blood Angels would be disbanded even though they are not wiped from the records. Its just that the Blood Angels as an organization no longer exists.

Aeolian
20-09-2008, 16:52
"Know your Astartes history, it has been done before".


Words cannot describe how cringeworthingly bad that dialogue is.

Ranger S2H
20-09-2008, 18:28
i like the neverfound theory, at least for 1 of the 2.
my personal fluff is about a non imperial ancestor of an unfound pimarch, that tries to find his legion, hidden somewhere by the imperium.

Wolf Scout Ewan
20-09-2008, 19:58
It is my opinion that the the two missing legions and thier respectives primarches refused the Emporer. They refused to acknowledge him and so he whacked em good!

Eulenspiegel
21-09-2008, 09:30
Words cannot describe how cringeworthingly bad that dialogue is.
Um.
Well, I take that as feedback.
To defend myself: I only learned english in school and those few occasions I can actually practise it is with drunk american soldiers.

That was me citing from memory. I looked it up, the correct quote is:

"We cannot disband a First Founding Chapter!" Orloc was aghast.
"We know the history of the Astartes. It has happened before," insisted Seth, "we can take the men among the successors, spread equally. As you said Lord Orloc, we are all kindred beneath the armour ..."

fracas
22-09-2008, 00:10
my personal hypothesis states that one of the missing primarchs was female. Her legion got disbanded because they could not successfully use her geneseed to make new space marines.

AmasNagol
23-09-2008, 21:57
Timelines people

The Legions were established and operational before the Primarchs were found. 2 and 11 would have been in existence anyway, even if they never found the Primarchs. I have a distinct memory reading in fluff within the last 5 years that 'XXXX was the last of the 20 Primarchs to be found', but nothing more than that. Can't remember what it was in either, think it was an IA article. That implies that they were all found however.

Turned to Chaos is not an option for complete eradication of all records, because then the same would be done to the 9 Traitor legions from the HH. Something else must have happened.

There is nothing saying that because you re-assign a Marine to another Legion that his Gene Seed will be re-used by that Legion. It was not as scarce during the Great Crusade.

bluewolf74727
23-09-2008, 23:13
Other theories claim that the survivors of the Eisenstein would become the precursor of the reknown Grey Knights, as their geneseed had proven to be quite resistant to the taints of Chaos.

Then again, other rumors claim that the Grey Knights geneseed does come from the Emperor himself.

but then werent al the primachs made from the emperor so that would be true for all the legions

The pestilent 1
24-09-2008, 04:10
1. That is after they fell to Chaos.
2. Chapters doesn't like to mix the seeds. They're the legacy of their primarchs and their heritage. It would be about the same as Brits kicking out the queen for a French president.

Probably not, given that the Queen is German...

tom1354788
24-09-2008, 21:57
The second chapter became the Grey knights, there records were expunged becuase they are the inquisition, they police the space marines if you like, keep an eye on them for the taint of chaos. This happened after the heresy, and was a way of protecting the imperium from the risk of a second heresy of space marines, without the guidance of the emperor.

Originally this task would have fallen upon the Dark angels but due to the whole fallen issue this role was passed to the second legion, as they were seen as more trustworthy.

The 11th legion is the firehawks, lost to the warp later to become the legion of the dammed.

biggreengribbly
24-09-2008, 22:51
The second chapter became the Grey knights, there records were expunged becuase they are the inquisition, they police the space marines if you like, keep an eye on them for the taint of chaos. This happened after the heresy, and was a way of protecting the imperium from the risk of a second heresy of space marines, without the guidance of the emperor.

Originally this task would have fallen upon the Dark angels but due to the whole fallen issue this role was passed to the second legion, as they were seen as more trustworthy.

The 11th legion is the firehawks, lost to the warp later to become the legion of the dammed.

In the words of my good friend Lex Luthor WRONG! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McAeQiLmEYU&NR=1)

Neither the Fire Hawks, nor the Grey Knights are Legions, in spite of the nickname the Fire Hawks accrued after their accident. The Grey Knights were created during the Second Founding, and while certainly highly classified and locked in the darkest depths of Titan and other Ordo Malleus facilities, records of their existance almost certainly still exist. The Fire Hawks were not created until the 21st founding (Which was not until the 38th millenium, unlikely a Legion would remain intact that long, considering Dorn and the Fists were fired on for not complying probably within about a decade of the Codex being formulated).

The Grey Knights, the Ordo Malleus, and to a lesser extent the Inquisition as a whole are in no way in place to 'Police the Astartes'. The Dark Angels certainly were not in any way the Arbiters of any Imperial 'watchdog for Astartes loyalty' or whatever simply through being the first Legion, thus there was no duty to fall upon the Second due to the mishaps on Caliban, While the Inquisition has the authority and/or oratorial skill to muster a punitory effort against a Chapter deemed rogue, the Grey Knights would certainly not be the primary arm of this action, the rare occaision demonic influence was suspected notwithstanding.

I could go on.

Honestly I'm thoroughly mystified how you can be so utterly mistaken, yet still present your misconceptions with such such dogmatic conviction.

angelofrage
25-09-2008, 01:12
It is my opinion that the the two missing legions and thier respectives primarches refused the Emporer. They refused to acknowledge him and so he whacked em good!

I must say this discussion is interesting.

We know that out of 18, 9 turned to chaos, yet that wasn't enough to erase the records. I'm guessing because otherwise we wouldn't have the brilliant backstory we would have today.

So it's got to be something else. The idea that they found the 2 primarchs and they refused the Emporer right off the bat, isn't that hard to believe and would be something the Imperium wouldn't want getting out. So either they got destroyed and wiped from records, or the Emp couldn't bring himself to kill his own "sons" and left them to their own devices whilst removing the records so other people/marines/primarchs wouldn't think it was that easy to refuse the Emp.

Ofcourse it could just be a plan by GW to leave us hanging with the possibility of a big campaign or change to the story. The problem with that is being that they've kept the basic premise of the 20 legions for so long that it's hard to see why they'd leave it so long.

But as i said, it's fun to discuss it :)

neraka
25-09-2008, 01:47
It is probably possible to use different gene-seed across chapters.
Not recommended but entirely possible.

Otherwise Abaddon would not have spent so much effort in getting the gene-seed (using Iron Warriors in Storm of Iron) so as to raise more CSM.
End results might be pretty messed up (chaos) space marines. But what the Warp ? That's what he wants in the 1st place.

BTW, how does CSM produce more CSM ? IIRC it is written somewhere that some CSM gene-seeds are so corrupted (some mini stories about an Apothecary who rescued his fallen brethens' gene-seed) that it is not possible to be reuse in creating new CSMs... Is raiding the Imperium the only viable long-term way of creating new CSM ?

Eulenspiegel
25-09-2008, 06:48
We know that out of 18, 9 turned to chaos, yet that wasn't enough to erase the records.
My own theory is that they merely didnīt expunge the records of the traitor legions because they couldnīt hide it anymore.

I think that the II. and XI. Legion turned to Chaos or were tainted to begin with, and then thoroughly erased from memory, to hide the fact that Chaos exists and is such a great threat. All records were deleted, all scribes who filed records were killed, maybe some planets who came in contact with them were cleased as well. Then everyone pretended it didnīt happen. Maybe the Emperor even lied as to what happened to them to their brother legions ("It was the most curious thing ... they all flew into the warp and never came back.")

The Horus Heresy was too big to be hidden. They couldnīt "lose" the records on that one.
Besides, the Emperor wasnīt really around anymore.

Rockerfella
25-09-2008, 21:48
I've always liked the idea that two Primarchs had the individuality, and strength of character to 'just say no', as it were.

I think the emperor came down with all his fire works, his cloak billowing, his hair fluttering, *because i'm worth it* stylee, making grandiose promises of wealth, power and status. And then the Primarch kinda went: 'well, thats all well and good, but i'm kinda happy here, you know, this is my home, and I just sort of like things the way they are, so.. if you don't mind, was nice to meet you. I'll be getting on with my stuff now, so.. bye! Keep in touch!'- and then wandered back into his castle and drank MORE mead.

I'm guessing that wouldn't go down well with the emperor, one way or another.

Its just the way i've always liked to see the whole 'missing legions' thing.

Eulenspiegel
25-09-2008, 21:56
(...) and then wandered back into his castle and drank MORE mead.
... and they lived happily ever after for like 2 days before their entire world was nuked from orbit, just so they wouldnīt provide a dangerous precedent.

What you wrote was my close second theory about the two missiong legions. I rate it second because I donīt imagine the Emperor (at THAT time) having that dark a side ... killing his sons just because they showed spirit, just so his other sons donīt get ideas of independence.

Rockerfella
25-09-2008, 22:04
Indeed.

So, following this, surely its not such a stretch to imagine the emperor deliberating over it for months, then saying: 'Oh, crap, thats really bad news.... but bugger it, i'll just leave em to it and make sure i make my hair even glossier for when i meet the others'. If you get my drift?

I don't think the Emperor would have nuked them from orbit either, but thats not a reason to discount the theory totally.

Like someone else said earlier in the thread, he may have simply shrugged his shoulders, and knowing the inherent risks with retrieving his Primarchs, simply left them to it. Maybe he had a quota, or a target set in his mind? Sort of 'acceptable Pimarch losses' type thing.

Maybe.... *lol*

Eulenspiegel
25-09-2008, 22:19
Uhm, that is quite likely ... I think I have been tainted by the standard 40K "KILL EVERYTHING AND THEN SOMETHING" attitude.

What you said makes absolute sense in the 30K frame of mind:

The Emperor isnīt interested in forcing his sons, he wants willing followers.
As he isnīt aware of Chaos (to its full extent), so he doesnīt have to deny his enemy possible resources - he doesnīt have to kill them.

Rockerfella
25-09-2008, 22:43
I think the Emperor wanted willing and loyal sons for sure. I think he would have tried his damndest to persuade the Primarchs to join his cause, hence his colossal trials with Vulkan, russ etc.

Im sure he felt he had a good chance of persuading all his sons to follow his cause, and was probably suprised if they didn't, however, as suprised as i'm sure he would have been, i'm still thinking the Emperor would have simply let a dead dog lie if he knew there was absolutely no moving a primarch if he didn't want to go.

But, thats just me!

Treadhead_1st
26-09-2008, 22:20
Firstly, I'll say check this out: http://forum.blpublishing.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=177&PN=1

Lots of colated references to the missing Legions throughout GW history/BL publishing. The key part to take on board is that 20 Pimarchs were scattered, ALL landed on human-inhabited worlds, 20 Primarchs were found, and 20 Primarchs fought alongside their legions for at least a short while, then "fully half" the Legions turned in the heresey (but whether this is before, or after, the 2 missing legions were...missing is unknown).


Now, I'll add what I said in a similar thread on another forum:


I just had a thought.

In the HH series of books, when Horus is looking into that mysterious tube, muttering about "unfound glories" and "wasted potential" he goes into a rage, and chases after the elusive bloke he can see in his vision - whom he believes to be his father.

Now I don't know how others interpret that, but I think his rage was caused by despair - "brotherly anguish" if you will. So whatever happened involved the "loss" of at least that Primarch (and the Legion?) must have happened when the Primarchs were "young" and recently re-united (since horus knows who it is) - and to all intents and purposes - at least to the fellow Primarchs - they are dead/missing/no remaining sign in the galaxy (you may be wondering where I'm going, but bear with me).

So why does Horus go chasing after the elusive man, and start cursing the name of his father? My conclusion was that something the Emperor did caused the loss of the Primarchs - hence Horus' anguish/hate at this moment of the vision. Whether this would have been furthering his genetic manipulation research - which might have resulted in turning the Primarch into a spawn-like creature; or whether the Emperor ordered them into the Halo Zone/Webway/Hadex Anomaly; or ordered them into a couse of action that saw them slaughtered, I wouldn't want to speculate.

But basically, the jist of what I'm trying to say is that I think Horus' rage is fuelled by pain, and it's directed at the Emperor personally - ie, he lays the blame of the loss of at least 1 legion at his father's feet (and at this point he's still loyal, iirc).

One thing I do like to keep at the back of my mind...that Hadex Anomaly is on the Eastern Fringe (and is it co-incidence it's semi-sentient and is coloured the same as the invading Tyranid swarms..who happen to be emerging from the same area...on that galactic map), one of the areas a common theory that one of the legions may be hiding. What if they've been in that stasis since the Primarchs were fully active? Maybe they can control it/release themselves when called by the Emperor or what have you...

In short, either the Emperor sent them into hiding, ordered them on some (to Horus at the least) pointless, suicidal mission, or the Big E carried on the genetic manipulations and ruined the Primarchs/maybe the Legions too.