PDA

View Full Version : What happened to the extra marines?



Phoenix Blaze
17-09-2008, 14:44
Right, after the Heresy, when the Legions were split into Chapters, each with a thousand Astartes, what happened to the rest of them? Like for the Dark Angels, I think they have 3 successors, so including themselves, that's four thousand marines, so what happened to the rest of them? Are we to assume they all died and there were only 4000 left? Or that the first chapters were bigger than a thousand fighting marines? In Angels of Darkness, it's implied that the DA Legion nubered in the tens of thousands so splitting all those marines into a few Chapters just doesn't work.

Does anybody have any information on this?

Leftenant Gashrog
17-09-2008, 15:15
Point 1: Its been established canon for many years that the Imperium doesnt truly know how many chapters were created during the 2nd Founding, as many records from that period have been lost (especially during the second Siege of Terra during the Age of Apostasy), and that the lists of known successors floating about are merely the ones KNOWN to have been formed at that time.

Point 2: the DA numbered tens of thousands of marines (26 chapters as i recall), was that before or after the 10-15 years of brutal slaughter that bled the Legions dry?

Phoenix Blaze
17-09-2008, 15:22
Then I point to the Ultramarines, possibly the largest of the Legions. Yes they are known to have many successors, but at the first Founding, there would've been piles of them.

It's just one of the many holes in GW fluff.

The Caliban Lion
17-09-2008, 15:23
Many marines died during the Heresy. And then we have legions like Imperial Fists who not only got beaten up pretty badly during the Siege of Terra, but also suffered great losses during the Iron Cage incidenct shortly afterwards.

And Raven Guard, Salamanders and Iron Hands took quite the beating on Istvaan V.

MrBigMr
17-09-2008, 15:40
Wasn't there like quarter of a million Ultramarine during HH, and I think they managed to avoid major conflicts quite well. So is those numbers are splut up, Ultramarines would make up 25% of the current Marine chapters. No wonder the SM codex is best suited for vanilla Marines.

Phoenix Blaze
17-09-2008, 16:05
I suppose once the Legions were Chaptered up, they stopped taking in as many recruits, and going by the HH novels, masses of Astartes died during and just after the Heresy, so it wouldn't be too difficult to have the number whittled down to several thousand.

It still leaves things like the Ultramarines unexplained though.

Slaaneshi Slave
17-09-2008, 16:11
Horus sent the Ultramarines away (to the Eastern Fringe?) so that they would be absent during most of the fighting. For much of the Heresy they were busy doing busy people stuff, and so avoided almost all of the fighting. That is why most of the Chapters were made from Ultramarines - most of the legions were smashed, except the Ultramarines.

Koryphaus
17-09-2008, 16:14
Of course it does. Its more fun that way.

Leftenant Gashrog
17-09-2008, 16:27
Wasn't there like quarter of a million Ultramarine during HH, and I think they managed to avoid major conflicts quite well.

The largest number I've seen given for the UM is 250,000, in the Horus Heresy art books (which also put the other legions as being 100,000 minimum at the time of the Heresy), and I'd hardly say they missed major conflicts: they suffered major asswhuppings on Calth and Eskrador, not to mention being at the forefront of the Great Scouring (including digging out Iron Warrior garrisons - not to mention intervening at the Iron Cage)

PondaNagura
17-09-2008, 17:24
didn't the Um have to deal with both AL and the WB? not to mention the potential for traitor imperial armymen, or renegade worlds. and then there's the xenos threat.

yeah i've always been in the agreement that the HH whittled the forces down to near-nothingness, hence attributing to how great a conflict it was to inflict such casualties to the astartes, each marine a godlike. that and the missing records thing.
grey knights were the 666th chapter formed, so there must have been quite some foundings between then and the end of the HH.

Leftenant Gashrog
17-09-2008, 17:55
didn't the Um have to deal with both AL and the WB?
Alpha Legion = Eskrador
Word Bearers = Calth



grey knights were the 666th chapter formed, so there must have been quite some foundings between then and the end of the HH.

Chapter numbers dont automatically denote when the chapter was formed, eg: there are canon instances of chapter numbers being recycled (the failed 25th Founding Star Scorpions chapter number of 888 was subsequently given to the 26th Founding Mentor Legion chapter.)

Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness stated that the Grey Knights were designated chapter number 666 by orders of the Emperor - presumably for occult reasons (under older fluff the Emperor was known to make occassional utterances of great importance, but wasnt with it enough to do any day-to-day ruling)

Charax
17-09-2008, 18:01
Where the "extra" marines went:
1) Losses
2) there are more chapters than we know
3) Not all chapters are 1000 strong

Mystery solved

MrBigMr
17-09-2008, 18:17
The largest number I've seen given for the UM is 250,000
Hence "quarter of a million", aka. 250 000.


and I'd hardly say they missed major conflicts
By "major", I mean Drop Site Massacre and Siege of Terra. They survived them and were more or less at full strength at the end of the HH. So they had all the resources to restock all their losses after that, where as Fists and DA to name a few had to start finding places for recruits (Terra was in ruins, Caliban space dust). Stuff like that. Somehow I would Imagine the UM to not only have great numbers after HH, but also the means to keep those numbers up while most other loyalist legions licked their wounds and worked to build up their powerbase.

PondaNagura
17-09-2008, 18:26
whose to say the modern codex astartes wasn't a later refinement after the initial breakdown. the first thing the loyalists were doing was rebuilding the Sol Sytem's infrastructure [expelling remaining traitor forces, retaking Mars, tending to the Emperor's mortal wounds]. they kind of had other priorities to attend to than a complete reorganization of forces. Is it possible that the breakdown of the legions wasn't partially attributed to the loyalist forces having the scatter in order to re-establish peace in various sectors of the now shattered Imperium, like a garrison? the first founding chapters may have been a few thousand strong, similar to how they fought during the Great Crusade.
then when things calmed down a bit, order was mostly re-established, but before they went on their crusades to hunt for their fallen Primarchs, RG further broke down the forces.

Phoenix Blaze
17-09-2008, 18:45
Where the "extra" marines went:
1) Losses
2) there are more chapters than we know
3) Not all chapters are 1000 strong

Mystery solved

Such things still don't explain how the DA who were at 40,000+ marines (could be a hell of a lot more, around the 100,000) mentioned in Angels of Darkness became around 5,000?


I like the idea that the codex has been refined over time, so that the first Chapters could've had several thousand marines each.

Some fluff, possibly a full novel, the last in the HH series even would be great to shed some light on the subject.

Brother Siccarius
17-09-2008, 19:11
A) Crusade losses
B) Heresy losses:
Entire fleets would have been lost in the epic space battles of the time. The DA and Space Wolves in particular as they were distracted on the way to terra. A space battle destroys many times the life of a ground battle, when one victory kills millions in a single swipe.

C) In particular case with the DA, the chapter fought in the heresy, then returned to find heresy on their planet. When Caliban was destroyed there was likely several chapters worth on the ground, the explosion of the planet would have been as devastating to their numbers as the dropsite massacre was to other legions.

Lothlanathorian
17-09-2008, 21:30
And you can't forget current chapters like the Space Wolves and the Black Templars. The Space Wolf Great Companies could be anywhere from 90 to several hundred Marines strong and the same goes for the Black Templars Crusades.


So, you factor in that there are 12 Great Companies, each, more than likely, being over 100 Marines strong, then you definitely get more than 1000 Marines in Chapter. Also, the other Chapters that only loosely adhere to the Codex could have more than 1000 Marines in there Chapter.

Whitehorn
17-09-2008, 22:05
I believe the current Space Wolf chapter is around 1400 strong. Not including those busy in the EOT.

Chapters are supposed to be 1,000 in number. That's 1,000,000 Astartes knocking around.Sounds a credible number of loyalists after the losses of TGC and HH alone.

I can't see GW ever listing them all. The fluff is there to support the game, not the other way round, so the unknowns are left for us to create our own.

Killgore
17-09-2008, 22:49
Also remember theres alot of non-combatant marines such as tech marines/ apothecarys

i expect there was whole divisions of specialist marines that where redirected away from their legion after the HH to help rebuild the ruined imperium that would require their skills

Phoenix Blaze
17-09-2008, 23:29
I wasn't aware of much DA action during the Heresy. Sure they had some battles, but apart from the one on Calliban, (which was more of an orbital bombardment then a controlled conflict) they weren't involved in any of the major ones. The weren't on Terra, they weren't on Istvaan, they were just crusading and getting sent on a wild goose chase by Horus.

PondaNagura
17-09-2008, 23:33
well caliban did shoot at teh arrival fleet, so i imagine they lost quite a few ships before they retreated. and then when they had to get back in range in order to begin an assault. the Citadel was probably heavily shielded, so ground forces were necessary to actually take back the planet, as well as gather proper information, and dispose of the Fallen.
then the whole warp rift opening and shattering a planet might knock out/envelop a few more ships and thousands of marines. i wonder if it was only the Fallen that were displaced throughout time and space. sorry that was off topic.

Phoenix Blaze
17-09-2008, 23:41
I'd imagine some loyalists were thrown through space and time aswell. I'm sure they're pretty pissed off when they appear in 40K and they have some green armourd DA charging at them naming them heretic and traitor.


As a kind of counter point to my OP, I wonder what happened with say, the Raven Guard Iron Hands and Salamanders. They were all thoroughly bitch slapped at Istvaan and I'd be suprised if there was much more than several hundred marines left after the massacre. We all know that Corax tried to speed up the make-a-marine process to replenish the Raven Guard's numbers, but when it came time to split up into Chapters, were those three Legions at all able to provide enough Astartes to have successors? I'm not sure if they even have successors now (I don't really care much for 40K compared to 30K).

PondaNagura
17-09-2008, 23:46
actually i think that's why the sallies aren't listed as having successors; aside from records lost.

Variel
17-09-2008, 23:56
Most of the 2nd founding chapters etc were created by the ultramarines as the time they arrived with the space wolves(why horus challenged the emperor in desperation).
so the ultramarines suffered little loss's and were moved into the other chapters.

further support of this is that the DA chapter uhardly uses the seed of the lion, but in fact of the ultramarines

Koryphaus
18-09-2008, 00:07
I read once that of the Iron Hands, Raven Guard and Salamanders forces present at Istvaan V, only 5 Marines escaped. Now they wouldn't have committed their entire forces, otherwise they wouldn't have been able to recover at all from losses like those.

So the Salamanders might have been around 1000 marines strong at the end of the Heresy, whilst the Iron Hands and Raven Guard 3-4000 strong, given they have listed 2nd Founding Successors.


...so the ultramarines suffered little loss's and were moved into the other chapters.

further support of this is that the DA chapter hardly uses the seed of the lion, but in fact of the ultramarines

Sorry, what?

Dark Angels use Dark Angels geneseed, as do Dark Angels successor chapters (whether 2nd Founding or more recent).

Templar Ben
18-09-2008, 01:06
And you can't forget current chapters like the Space Wolves and the Black Templars. The Space Wolf Great Companies could be anywhere from 90 to several hundred Marines strong and the same goes for the Black Templars Crusades.


So, you factor in that there are 12 Great Companies, each, more than likely, being over 100 Marines strong, then you definitely get more than 1000 Marines in Chapter. Also, the other Chapters that only loosely adhere to the Codex could have more than 1000 Marines in there Chapter.

According to the map in the BT codex they are over six thousand marines currently.

We have no idea how many they started with when the IF were split up. Could have been hundreds and it could have been thousands.

TheRedAngel
18-09-2008, 02:26
Such things still don't explain how the DA who were at 40,000+ marines (could be a hell of a lot more, around the 100,000) mentioned in Angels of Darkness became around 5,000?
If we assume the 40000 (40K!) are correct and then also assume it is correct that half the legion was on Caliban, turning against the Lion, we would have 20000 loyalists left.
We then have to deduct the "entering Caliban Orbit casualties" and those who were lost on Caliban fighting the fallen angels (yes, the the Lion did not go down there alone).
I imagine the losses would be somewhere in the thousands in a battle marines against marines (kinda like "little terra").
Minus any Marines lost on the way to terra and the fighting on terra (were there any traitors left when the DA and SW finally arrived? Should have been only hours after Horus death) and during the scourging, in my opinion there shouldn't be many more left which would fit 4-6 successor chapters.
And that is even assuming no major losses before the heresy during the crusade hence starting the heresy at 40000 marines.

@Smurfs: Even with the Abyss plan gone wrong the WB should have really dealt the legion quite a blow.
The plan was to cripple the Ultramarines with the Calth and Abyss events, so Calth alone could have meant maybe even up to 100000 dead, if the WB weren't completely incompetent (yes I am deliberately ignoring the BftA ******).

Applesauceninja
18-09-2008, 05:17
isnt there only like 4 known dark angel chapters there could be others and what about all those other chapters with unkown orginal legions

DutchKillsRambo
18-09-2008, 06:50
i didnt see anyone mnetion the Apocrphya of Skaros (?) which lists 23 Ultramarine sucessors, so at 1000 marines apeice, that pretty much sums up their PH numbers,

Darkstar2586
18-09-2008, 09:25
In answer to what happened to the DA space marines.... well some died, and many many others turned to chaos....dirty DA hahahaah

Me and my mates all take the **** out of each other, the ultramines(me) are apparently cowards and love the bling, Da are all traitors they just dnt know it yet, and BA are corrupt with the taint of chaos and secretly are chaos...blood for the bloo err....sanguinious!

Gallant
18-09-2008, 09:59
Ya know, the OP does raise a good point. Just saying a Chapter has two hundred extra folks doesn't comes close to accounting for it. If we just keep pointing out losses, then the Chaos forces should be non-existent. They experienced losses, likely far higher on Holy Terra as they were the siegers and they lost that battle. Some of those forces should have been wiped out. Given attrition over 10K years and a low replacement rate, one would think there could scarcely be enough Chaos Marines left to fill the seats of a Nissan Stanza. But, it doesn't seem to be the case. Too bad.

Askari
18-09-2008, 10:28
Given attrition over 10K years and a low replacement rate, one would think there could scarcely be enough Chaos Marines left to fill the seats of a Nissan Stanza. But, it doesn't seem to be the case. Too bad.

Khorne himself brought Kharn the Betrayer back from death, so did Slaanesh to Lucius the Eternal. The Chaos Gods have their own ways of replenishing followers.

As to the "extra marines", it can simply be put down to incalculable losses during the Horus Heresy. 3 Loyalist Legions were crushed [nearly] completely at Isstvan.

And I'm not sure about there being only 23 Ultramarine successors, I thought most chapters were descendant from the Ultras, simply due to their greater amount of geneseed, and the stability of said geneseed.

Koryphaus
18-09-2008, 10:52
The Apocrypha of Skaros states that there are 23 Ultramarines Second Founding Legions, not successor chapters. There are far more successor chapters than this. At least 600 of the chapters currently operating in the Imperium today must be Ultramarine descendants if the 3/5th idea is to hold.

Gallant
18-09-2008, 11:05
Khorne himself brought Kharn the Betrayer back from death, so did Slaanesh to Lucius the Eternal. The Chaos Gods have their own ways of replenishing followers.

As to the "extra marines", it can simply be put down to incalculable losses during the Horus Heresy. 3 Loyalist Legions were crushed [nearly] completely at Isstvan.


Sure, a crazy kid from the Khornate side of the tracks may get a second shot at playing in the show, but I don't see the chaos gods doing a Moonies-style mass ceremony. That seems like a cop-out at best and more likely, a big wedge of brie.

My point was that super-devastating losses would have occurred on both sides, meaning that there are likely only warbands of Chaos remaining. That does sort of fit, with the exception of the pants-on-head retarded Black Crusades. Those 13 screw-ups alone would have depleted the ranks of the remaining original marines.

Askari
18-09-2008, 11:27
Those 13 screw-ups alone would have depleted the ranks of the remaining original marines.

None of them have failed :confused:
Thought they have never performed beyond their objectives.

As to how a background story can be cheesy...

Koryphaus: Sorry, my Loyalist knowledge is... lacking :)

Gallant
18-09-2008, 11:37
None of them have failed :confused:
Thought they have never performed beyond their objectives.

As to how a background story can be cheesy...

Koryphaus: Sorry, my Loyalist knowledge is... lacking :)

You're assumption is that it's the official background story. Oh, and a background story can be cheesy but in this case the real story is too obfuscated to be anything in particular.

As to the Black Crusades never performing beyond their objectives...what pray tell, would you say those objectives were?

Phoenix Blaze
18-09-2008, 11:41
That Abaddon hasn't been turned into a spawn for his 13 failures is a bit ridiculous, like, what the hell is going on there.

But with regards to the traitor legions at the end of the Heresy, I'd imagine some of them would still have some pretty large numbers, like tens of thousands, and to this day there would still be several thousand of them running around. The Chaos Legions do recruit, be it through renegade marines swelling their ranks, or through creating new marines, like the sorts seen in the Ultramarine novels, or how the Thousand sons can be remade as is seen in the Ragnar novels.

Gallant
18-09-2008, 11:48
That Abaddon hasn't been turned into a spawn for his 13 failures is a bit ridiculous, like, what the hell is going on there.

Word. Proof that Chaos gods have some low standards, like the admissions board at a welding school.


But with regards to the traitor legions at the end of the Heresy, I'd imagine some of them would still have some pretty large numbers, like tens of thousands, and to this day there would still be several thousand of them running around. The Chaos Legions do recruit, be it through renegade marines swelling their ranks, or through creating new marines, like the sorts seen in the Ultramarine novels, or how the Thousand sons can be remade as is seen in the Ragnar novels.

I really don't see those numbers lasting. Void accidents, fleet losses, Terra-assaulting, and 10,000 of behaving like the worst fraternity on campus means that they have to be as worn out as my liver.

I suppose I see Chaos as more of a harassing force these days. Sure, they may pick up the odd renegade or have Bile make a few new ones, but keep in mind, making new ones is fraught with problems. Their recruiting efforts are also hamstrung by the fact that they don't exactly have offices in major cities. Getting to a world to join a warband had to be a feat and one rarely accomplished. It's not an instant company.

I used to really dislike Chaos, but once I started to see them as a worn out bunch of ex-rebels, they started to appeal. They're like crusty old guys who claim to have been to Woodstock.

Koryphaus
18-09-2008, 11:52
The 1st Black Crusade failed due to the sacrifice of a small fleet of Imperial Fists Vessels. Rogal Dorn was killed. Resulted in the massive fortification of systems surronding the EoT.
The 12th Black Crusade was a success, with Abbadon capturing 2 Blackstone Fortresses.
The 13th Black Crusade shattered the defenses of the Cadian Gate. Chaos won that campaign.

Of the remainder, I don't know. But it seems likely that if Abbadon had failed 13 times, he wouldn't be the Warmaster of Chaos. Either the Gods or a ticked-off Daemon Prince would have relegated him to spawndom, or another Space Marine would have killed him.

@ Askari - no worries mate, there are plenty of things I don't know :)

Eulenspiegel
18-09-2008, 12:03
So GW background writers arenīt good with numbers?
Good morning, hereīs your coffee ;) :angel:

One board member once mentioned that a lot of fluff suddenly makes sense if you add or substract some zeroes from the given numbers, and I agree.

On topic, the original question can simply be answered with: You donīt know exactly how many Chapters the original Legions were broken into.

Gallant
18-09-2008, 12:14
They were crusades. Sure, there were victories. That's why you muster centuries worth of material and irreplaceable personnel. I mean really 13 tries and the best they can do is smashing some system defenses? Orks do that when driven off course. These are crusades, not simply police actions. The Children's Crusade accomplished more.

The reason Dear Abbie hasn't been reduced to a spawn is that the Chaos gods are utterly desperate for bodies. Any monkey in Termie armor could become a demon prince at this point. Let's face it, most of the candidates are plagued by Nurgle, a mass of tentacles by Tzeetch, killed and eaten by a follower of Khorne, or f'ed to death by a Slaaneshian. It's a pretty weak pool of candidates. What I'm saying is, Chaos is by default, a B-squad.

Lord Malorne
18-09-2008, 12:21
Simple.

They do not replenish the chapter until it is below 1,000 marines.

Gallant
18-09-2008, 19:56
I don't think you read a single post prior to posting.

Phoenix Blaze
18-09-2008, 21:27
Yes indeed Malorne, we have batted it back and forth about marine numbers, and the OP itself clearly states that the key point in question is what happened to the extra marines left over after the Heresy once they were split into Chapters as the number of marines in a Legion doesn't really translate well into the Chapters formed in the First Founding.

It has nothing to do with the extra marines recruited into the modern day chapters.

2_heads_talking
18-09-2008, 22:45
I actually find this topic to be rather interesting, but with regards to the events after the Battle of Terra:

Has there been any information so far on what happened AFTER the events of Terra? Besides the Iron Cage, has there been anything else mentioned that could have taken large chunks out of the remaining marine strength?

As far as the Iron Hands, Salamanders and Raven Guard were concerned, I'm sure that their entire strength was thrown against Horus, as the Emperor wanted the traitor and all of his followers wiped out and was willing to use the combined weight of - what was it again? - NINE Legions against him; its just a shame that those three were then turned upon. So, that would make sense for their numbers, as they were almost wiped out (the five escaping, Corax's desperate attempts to rebuild his legion, etc.)

The Dark Angels have different stories, depending on what background you favour: the Dark Angels in their joint Space Wolves voyage across the stars, fighting every planet they came into contact with and being pounded by the Daemons of the warp every time they jumped would have lost them loads of men, but that depends on whether you believe they did that and didn't skulk away.

With Caliban, yes they'd have suffered losses when they came into range of the planet's defenses, but Jonson pulled them back and when they returned Jonson and some of his men teleported to their fortress monastery; if I remember correctly the combined DA fleet simply pounded the planet, weakening its structure. You wouldn't lose too many men in something like that, at least I'd imagine.

Oh, and I always imagined that each of the Space Wolves Great Companies was around the size of a standard chapter, as their non-conformist attidtudes towards the Codex means they split once and to hell with the Ultramarines and their rules.

You also must remember that in the case of at least two of the Traitor legions, they managed to survive as a legion up until they entered the Eye of Terror. It was only once they entered there, and Kharn went nuts, that those two legions fragmented into the warbands.

Finally, Abaddon is NOT a failure; each Black Crusade was not a case of "THIS time we'll take Terra!", rather it was a time when Abaddon used the forces of Chaos to strike telling blows against the Imperium. Each time another Black Crusade comesaround the Imperium throw resources depserately needed elsewhere to combat him, and like the Twelfth Crusade, ultimately he wanted the Blackstone Fotresses and, as seen, these were then used in the subsequent Black Crusade.

A poor leader? Hardly. After thirteen crsuades of granting blood, death and madness to the Dark Gods (in part what h set out to do), and being able to unite the warring factions, I think he deserves more credit than most gamers give him.

FashaTheDog
18-09-2008, 23:29
The Iron Warriors probably pump out hundreds of new Marines a year (and toss out the thousands of skinless failures), so we can assume that the other Legions have their own means of creating new Marines apart from Bile's racket and the occasional defections (although entire Chapters have gone over from time to time).

And as for the Loyalists, why not just accept that the Horus Heresy was so brutal and cutthroat that Legions, numbering hundreds of thousands, were reduced below 10% of their pre-Hersey strength? If nothing else, 90% or higher casualty rates make any war look even more brutal with any victory being a pyrrhic one at best.

sydbridges
19-09-2008, 01:15
I think they have 3 successors

If they only have three 2nd founding successor chapters, I'd suggest that perhaps some of the second founding chapters since fell to chaos/rebellion and were stricken from the records forever, hence explaining the low number of chapters.

If half the Legion fell to Chaos once, I don't doubt some of their successor chapters could fall as well or at least rebel against the Imperium. The Soul Drinkers are a good example of that - they aren't mentioned in the fluff anywhere, mostly because they didn't exist as a second founding chapter until Ben Counter made them into one for the IFs, but then it makes sense that they aren't mentioned anywhere because they were stricken from all records and a frowny face put next to their name in the great list of Space Marine chapters.


They were crusades. Sure, there were victories. That's why you muster centuries worth of material and irreplaceable personnel. I mean really 13 tries and the best they can do is smashing some system defenses? Orks do that when driven off course. These are crusades, not simply police actions. The Children's Crusade accomplished more.

The reason Dear Abbie hasn't been reduced to a spawn is that the Chaos gods are utterly desperate for bodies. Any monkey in Termie armor could become a demon prince at this point. Let's face it, most of the candidates are plagued by Nurgle, a mass of tentacles by Tzeetch, killed and eaten by a follower of Khorne, or f'ed to death by a Slaaneshian. It's a pretty weak pool of candidates. What I'm saying is, Chaos is by default, a B-squad.

:rolleyes: Exaggerate much?

The Black Crusades previously mentioned succeeded at their objectives. Abaddon doesn't have Horus's advantage of no one really expecting Space Marines to fall to Chaos - so instead of setting himself with a task that would fail for the first Crusade like "Burn Terra", he settles for "Get some cool Eldar crap to blow stuff up with" or "ruin the defenses that are supposed to keep us in so we can leave whenever we please," which are pretty good choices. Every time he launches a Crusade, the Imperium is weakened as soldiers who are needed to fend off Orks, Tau, Eldar, Necrons, Tyranids, and the biggest threat, internal rebellion, are pulled into instead ensuring that only a small portion of the galaxy burns due to the new Crusade. Abaddon then succeeds at his goal of whatever he was doing in that crusade (get new toy, burn some stuff down, kill one of the remaining loyal Primarchs who might otherwise run around being a nuisance to the plans of Chaos), AND he leaves those Imperial forces leaving the Eye of Terror to return to an Imperium that is more on fire than they left it.

The Children's Crusade certainly didn't weaken the entire Middle East so that both rebellion and other outside forces would find it easier prey.

InquisitorNiels
19-09-2008, 04:37
I dont have my codex at my side while I post this but IIRC some crusades are not full on invaisions but smaller attacks. Not everyone of the 13 crusades are like the last one where whole traitor legions attack the Imperium, but maybe a few warbands united to achieve a goal such as getting a kick ass deamon sword or maybe something else that isnt spelled out in the backround.

Lord-Caerolion
19-09-2008, 07:47
Also, Abaddon didn't lead all 13 Black Crusades. Several were led by various other Warlords, who had amassed a force large enough to be deemed a Crusade.

Koryphaus
19-09-2008, 07:58
One of the smaller Black Crusades was launched solely to gain Drachnyen

Arkturas
19-09-2008, 13:11
At least for the DA it wouldn't be surprising to find that there were some off the book 2nd founding chapters that were simply not listed. Due to the general imperium not know exactly what happened to the DA on Caliban they had the opportunity to create some chapters or even smaller groups dedicated to whatever secret missions they chose without listing them as a successor chapter. A secret chapter made up of supposedly dead marines with no imperium oversight, may even appear renegade. No proof but it's definitely something the DA could do.

Lord Malorne
19-09-2008, 14:47
I don't think you read a single post prior to posting.

The fact is I did read the other posts, it seems you do not understand mine, they do not replensih until they drop below 1,000.

Meaning they make the chapters greater in number than 1,000 as they did not simply divide the marines in a random number fashion but like the Imperial Fists, divide tham into a (for lack of a better word) philosophy, so we got (that we know of) Crimson fists, Back Templars and BL wise we got Soul Drinkers, also we got the original Imperial fists, with the possible exception of the crimson fist the other do not function like 'normal' codex chapters (Black Templras sure as hell don't).

When they sustain losses they do not recruit until the number drops below a thousand. You may think that everything was neat and tidy and made into 1,000 strong chapters, but what would have happened was some would have numbered more than a thousand and some less than a thousand (iron Hands, Raven Guard).

The thought of there being 'extra maines' is silly so my post reflected that, so don't judge someones post before you understand it.

Lord Malorne

bobbles
19-09-2008, 15:12
The fact is I did read the other posts, it seems you do not understand mine, they do not replensih until they drop below 1,000.

Meaning they make the chapters greater in number than 1,000 as they did not simply divide the marines in a random number fashion but like the Imperial Fists, divide tham into a (for lack of a better word) philosophy, so we got (that we know of) Crimson fists, Back Templars and BL wise we got Soul Drinkers, also we got the original Imperial fists, with the possible exception of the crimson fist the other do not function like 'normal' codex chapters (Black Templras sure as hell don't).

When they sustain losses they do not recruit until the number drops below a thousand. You may think that everything was neat and tidy and made into 1,000 strong chapters, but what would have happened was some would have numbered more than a thousand and some less than a thousand (iron Hands, Raven Guard).

The thought of there being 'extra maines' is silly so my post reflected that, so don't judge someones post before you understand it.

Lord Malorne

No judging from your post you had'nt read anything that come before, as your post was completly without context


and on topic a combination of catastrophic loses and missing records accounts for it

Plus gw being terrible with numbers

Phoenix Blaze
19-09-2008, 20:42
I don't see how the extra marines is silly.

With the way the Imperium works, I doubt the codex Astartes has changed much since Guilliman first introduced it as a set way to organise marine Chapters for fear of bringing down the wrath of some unseen force. So, with that the Legions would be broken down into chapters comprising of 1,000 fighting marines, for fear of another civil war. If some of the Chapters had several thousand more Astartes than others, there's the possibility they could try and take control of the ruined Imperium for themselves.

So, with that, and with the idea that the Legions were broken down into 1,000 strong Chapters, there would *have* to be some extra marines.

Lord Malorne, your original post was short and implied that you hadn't read the OP or the thread, your second post cleared some things up, but you can't blame us for misinterpreting your first post when there wasn't much to it.

MrBigMr
19-09-2008, 21:07
How does an outsider know how many Marines there is in a chapter? I mean, is there some pencil neck clerk flying from planet to planet, knocking on the door of the fortress monestary and asking (imagine the lowliest, dryest clergy voice you can) "Excuse me, I'm working on a census of the Space Marine population. How many can be found in this particular chapter?"

By the time his grandchildren have finished with the calculations, half of the Marines counted will be dead and a good percent of the chapters gone. 1000 is the number on a paper. Unless someone can proove a chapter has more Marines than that (which is a little hard if you can't line them all up and start counting), it's nigh impossible to convict said chapter for violating the sacred Codex which even the Ultramarines don't follow.

1000 is one of those "the speed limit on this particular road is 55mp/h." But how many actually drive exactly at 55? How many drive over it? How many of them get caught? What if the cop thinks that 55.5 isn't enough to bother chasing the perp down? What if another cop does chase? What is the penalty? Someone might let it slide with a warning, another one throw the book at the driver.

It's all subjective, really.

Phoenix Blaze
19-09-2008, 23:03
Chapters don't really get into trouble for not following the codex and in a way, yes some clerk comes round and checks up on the amount of marines, it's called the Inquisition. The Admech also keeps really good tabs on the amount of marines in each chapter. It's impossible to keep exact numbers with deaths and such, but a rough number can be worked out.

The 1,000 is fighting marines, there are pilots, tech adepts and all sorts so Chapters never number exactly 1,000, they're either more or less. Hell, the Flesh Tearers are down to like 400 as they're really hit by the Black Rage for some odd reason.

Gallant
20-09-2008, 01:27
Exaggerate much?

Yeah, it's called hyperbole. I'll let you figure it out on your own time.



The thought of there being 'extra maines' is silly so my post reflected that, so don't judge someones post before you understand it.

Lord Malorne

You know, the correct thing to do would be to either concede that you only read the title of the thread or to just walk away. If you couldn't understand what the OP was saying you might have done well to do the latter.

cpl_hicks
20-09-2008, 03:52
The first thing to understand is that a chapter does not have a maximum of 1000 marines in it. The thousand is the fighting strength of the chapter (100 squads of ten men) If you count the ancillary staff (Techmarines, apothacarys, fleet captains, tank crews etc)

From Lexicanum (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ultramarines) That the Ultramarines have
3 Battle Barges
10 Strike Cruisers
14 Rapid Strike vessels
34 Thunderhawks

If each of them has 1 space marine commander that makes the Ultras chapter "strength" as 1061.

So any of these "spare marines" would have most likely been redeployed in another role.

Post-heresy chapter reconfiguration manager : "What is your current role?"

Pre-heresy marine - "Tactical marine"

Post-heresy chapter reconfiguration manager : checks paperwork "No, sorry we have got enough of those. I can offer you a good job in mecanical services, you get yourself a staff, a claw on your back and we give you these dudes who follow you around doing your bidding"

Post-heresy marine -"Okay that jobs sounds good for me"

Post-heresy chapter reconfiguration manager : "Take form B12 from the Post-hersey reconfiguration office, get it filled out in triplicate and then keep the white form, return the blue form to me and send the red form to Mars"

sydbridges
20-09-2008, 03:54
Yeah, it's called hyperbole. I'll let you figure it out on your own time.

It was pretty stupid hyperbole, so there wasn't much to figure out.

You say Abaddon did nothing, I point out his Crusades killed a Primarch. The only other confirmed Primarch kills in battle that I know of were at the hands of other, different Primarchs or the Emperor (RG by Fulgrim, FM by Fulgrim, Sang by Horus, Horus by the Emp, Alph maybe by RG, NH chose to be killed as a political statement). Killing one of the remaining loyal Sons of the Emperor in itself is a major victory. On top of that, with every Crusade, he weakens the Imperium - he drives the Imperium to the point where one day, they won't be able to throw a huge army to stop him without collapsing under the pressures of the other forces arrayed from the outside in and from the inside out.

Also, your comparison of the 13th BC to an Ork raid is equally erroneous. I doubt there are more than a dozen Imperial systems as fortified or more fortified than Cadia (there's the system with Holy Terra and Mars... and that might be it), and I doubt anything short of a full-blown Ghaz-launched Waagh! into Cadia could have even dared to hope to have done that much damage to Cadia's defenses. It'd be like comparing the damage Horus did to Terra's defenses in the Heresy and saying, "Well, any Ork raid does damage to defenses, Horus didn't really do any damage to Terra."

Cadia is the quite likely the second toughest nut to crack between the Chaos Marines in the Eye of Terror and the Emperor (with Terra being the toughest) and they cracked it in the 13th BC. If you don't think that was an accomplishment, then I'd ask you to name any assault on the Imperium in the 41st millennium which has done better. Others have taken planets, sure, but how many enemies of the Imperium have assaulted systems that were literally one giant military outpost with the singular goal of not being damaged by their foe and succeeded?

EDIT - On topic, they've said in the fluff in the past that although they've named a lot of the 2nd founding chapters, that the records are incomplete. We don't know how many chapters have fallen to chaos and been stricken from the records, how many were wiped out completely in battle and their records were lost, how many disappeared into the warp and their records were lost, how many were eaten by errant void whales and their records were lost, etc etc etc. Basically, there can be enough second founding chapters to cover every single marine making it into a codex-sized second founding chapter because we don't know how many second founding chapters there actually were. For instance, there's that apocrypha that suggests the UMs had 23 - it's apocrypha, not accepted Imperial Truth and certainly not necessarily actual truth.

Eulenspiegel
20-09-2008, 08:03
How does an outsider know how many Marines there is in a chapter?

Good point, in RED THRIST,
Dante (Blood Angels Chapter master) spread his Blood Angels all over the Imperium to engage in smaller conflicts, just to hide the fact that his Chapter has suffered severe losses.

Koryphaus
20-09-2008, 08:22
Lord Malorne, your original post was short and implied that you hadn't read the OP or the thread, your second post cleared some things up, but you can't blame us for misinterpreting your first post when there wasn't much to it.

Thats funny. Lord Malorne's post made perfect sense to me.


You know, the correct thing to do would be to either concede that you only read the title of the thread or to just walk away. If you couldn't understand what the OP was saying you might have done well to do the latter.

:eyebrows: Up ourselves much?

MajorWesJanson
20-09-2008, 09:31
For my chapter's background, they absorbed some other chapters after they suffered catastrophic losses, but kept the names on the books, allowing for a larger size. There are plenty of ways to hide larger chapters.

The Space Wolf way: Use non-codex formations that sound codex, i.e. Great Company. SM companies are 100 troops, so the SWolves could say that they have 12 Great companies, and are only a bit over the limit, when reality is that each Great Company could be huge.

The Templar way: "We split our forces into fleets that go out and do their own things. I'll be damned if I knew how many guys were out there in Black and white armor."

The Mechanicus way: "We really dont answer to Terra, so you can just take your little census and go home" Admittedly the Astartes do answer to Terra more than the Mechanicus, but even the Inquisition has trouble enforcing anything on them. It took armed combat against other Imperial forces before the Soul Drinkers were slapped by the Inquisition. A charge of "too many marines in the chapter" would bve a lot harder to gain support for. And if you press one chapter too hard, others will likely complain.

The Administratum way: Throw off the book keepers. "Troopers Ulicus, Vanborough, and Carpenter fell in action and could not be recovered. Please send more geneseed." Meanwhile those three are shuffled around a bit, but otherwise fine.

The Blood Raven way: Redundancy. "There are are only 86 battle brothers in the second company." "But what about these reports of the second company fighting on the other side of the galaxy at about the same time?" "Clearly your sources are wrong!" Meanwhile the Chapter has two companies named the second company, both at near full strength. Thus, extra companies.

Cheesolith
20-09-2008, 09:44
The Administratum way #2: Bad data. "There are are only 86 battle brothers in the second company." "But what about these reports of the second company fighting on the other side of the galaxy at about the same time?" "Clearly your sources are wrong!" Meanwhile the Chapter has two companies named the second company, both at near full strength. Thus, extra companies.

Shouldn't this be called the Blood Raven way? They appear to have multiple 3rd companies.

MajorWesJanson
20-09-2008, 09:54
Good point, I forgot about them. Fixed.

MrBigMr
20-09-2008, 10:02
I can believe the bad data bit. You wouldn't believe how much people manage to screw up inside one garrison. In modern times. With computers and phones. Throw the tech into the middle ages and up the numbers by 10 000 fold, and you'll have yourself one fine mess in your hands.

Phoenix Blaze
20-09-2008, 10:54
Thats funny. Lord Malorne's post made perfect sense to me.



:eyebrows: Up ourselves much?


That may be, but to me, when I first read his first post, it implied he hadn't read much of the thread or the OP, and when people jump into a thread without giving it even a brief read, it can be a little annoying.


But taking Malorne's statement that they didn't recruit more marines until their numbers reached the 1,000 mark still wouldn't work as I doubt any of the surviving Primarch's or whoever was put in place of the newly founded Chapters would be okay seeing their marines cut to ribbons and their forces depleted and not being able to do anything about it.

Actually, a brief off topic point, is must've been hard for say, whoever took control of the Blood Angels or Iron Hands. They had to lead the Chapter while other's still had their Primarch in charge. Talk about high expectations.

@ cpl_hicks, very funny, but techmarines and the sorts were around pre-heresy.

Koryphaus
20-09-2008, 12:01
True, I know I wouldn't like it too much either. Their new commander must have had some very big shoes to fill.

Lord Malorne
20-09-2008, 12:53
That may be, but to me, when I first read his first post, it implied he hadn't read much of the thread or the OP, and when people jump into a thread without giving it even a brief read, it can be a little annoying.


But taking Malorne's statement that they didn't recruit more marines until their numbers reached the 1,000 mark still wouldn't work as I doubt any of the surviving Primarch's or whoever was put in place of the newly founded Chapters would be okay seeing their marines cut to ribbons and their forces depleted and not being able to do anything about it.

Actually, a brief off topic point, is must've been hard for say, whoever took control of the Blood Angels or Iron Hands. They had to lead the Chapter while other's still had their Primarch in charge. Talk about high expectations.

@ cpl_hicks, very funny, but techmarines and the sorts were around pre-heresy.



My post was short as it was to the point of the topic, if you did not understand then ask for me to elaborate, do not accuse me of not reading previous posts.

I think the idea of extra marines is silly because the idea of extra marines is silly, as why do you think (assume) that the chapters are perfect 1,000 numbers, one thing that blows that out the window is the 10th company (scout company) so extra marines is a silly idea, I can understand why someone would ask but the answer is simple.

They do not make them exactyly 1,000 strong, even after the heresy they had the numbers to make several second founding chapters (ultramarines roughly 26, space wolves possibly one), I have read all the index astartes and while it does not go into detail as to 'leftover' marines that is because they are not exactly divided into 1,000 strong chapters (:rolleyes: How many times do I have to stress that).

As to the Primarchs being upset...Hmmm wasn't there almost a second civil war between the space wolves, imperial fists and salamanders vs ultras and others as they opposed the splitting of there legions...oh yes there was!

Lord Malorne

sydbridges
20-09-2008, 13:26
As to the Primarchs being upset...Hmmm wasn't there almost a second civil war between the space wolves, imperial fists and salamanders vs ultras and others as they opposed the splitting of there legions...oh yes there was!

Lord Malorne

I hadn't heard the Salamanders were involved... I thought the reason they had no second founding was that they'd been so depleted by Istvaan and then the Heresy that they couldn't even field a second founding chapter.

Lord Malorne
20-09-2008, 13:36
I cannont remember which index astartes that was in :(, but it was the imp fists and space puppies for sure :D.

Koryphaus
20-09-2008, 13:46
I'd be inclined to think it was the Salamanders IA. IIRC it says that Vulcan vehemently opposed the splitting of the Legions, even though he had far fewer marines remaining than the other Legions.


..one thing that blows that out the window is the 10th company (scout company)..

Are you referring to the "no maximum size limits" on the scout companies? Because you're correct, that is one thing that really throws the 1000 marine limit right out - there could be 1000 Battle Brothers in the Chapter, but there could be a couple of hundred scouts/neophytes in the more extreme cases.

Phoenix Blaze
20-09-2008, 18:37
I never said you didn't read the thread, I just said that's what it looked like after someone else had mentioned it.

Anyway, the extra marines is still a problem. I don't mean what happened to those ten extra marines left over after they made the chapters, I mean what happened to the other several thousand marines left to the Space Wolves when they didn't make twenty odd successors. There were plenty of them left, regardless of the amount of losses taken during and after the Heresy.

The idea of the Heresy taking horrific losses on the Legions resulting in only a few thousand being left is pretty cool, and if GW came out and said that was the case then I'd be happy. But they haven't done such a thing, and the answer to my original question is simple....GW made a mistake, again.

Armydillo978
20-09-2008, 19:02
The "extra" marines where actually taken into the Marine Relocation Program and given new identities and homes. Others were taken and placed into secret projects to battle the chaos that stems from the Administratum trying to figure out how many Guardsmen there are (someone has to try and figure out all that sickleave).

FashaTheDog
20-09-2008, 20:06
I though Guilliman was "not quite dead yet" and that he's "getting better," but not yet to the point where "he might pull through."

Koryphaus
21-09-2008, 00:27
Concorde, sweet Concorde, you shall not have died in vain!

Gallant
21-09-2008, 03:15
:eyebrows: Up ourselves much?

And your point is?

FashaTheDog
21-09-2008, 04:35
Wouldn't it "Guiliman, sweet, Guiliman, you shall not have died in vain"?

Koryphaus
21-09-2008, 06:06
And your point is?

I think you just made it.


Wouldn't it be "Guiliman, sweet, Guiliman, you shall not have died in vain"?

I don't really mind, as long as the Sons of Malice eat Robin's minstrels, I'll be happy!

DantesInferno
21-09-2008, 06:56
There seems to be a big assumption going on in this thread that the Second Founding Chapters were all roughly a thousand marines when they were created from the division of the First Founding Legions.

While it's a fairly plausible one, given that Guilliman would have wanted all of the Second Founding Chapters operating under his Codex structure straight away, it is possible that Guilliman built a bit of flexibility into the arrangements for the Imperium's transition from Legions to Chapters. And after all, while Guilliman was firmly of the belief that his Codex was the way to organise the Astartes, he didn't stick to it with the absolute rigour with which he is sometimes attributed (c.f. Eskrador).

Suppose that the Legions were divided up into Second Founding Chapters two or three times larger than normal chapters, and were under instructions to only use about half of their recovered gene-seed to replenish their numbers, while sending the rest back to Mars in preparation for the Third, Fourth and Fifth Foundings. Due to the massive amounts of fighting needed to remove the Traitor elements still within the Imperium and to reconquer worlds lost to Chaos and to opportunistic Xenos during the Heresy, the Second Founding Chapters would have been fairly quickly reduced down to the traditional Codex size whilst providing an adequate amount of gene-seed for the rapid expansion in the numbers of Chapters. This theory would also explain why the numbers of Second Founding Chapters were not as large as might have been expected given the numbers of Marines involved in the Great Crusade.

Koryphaus
21-09-2008, 07:14
That's a pretty good theory Dante. Whilst he was obviously in favour of his new system of organisation, Guilliman had to be a pragmatist. Dorn only relented when one of his strike cruisers was fired upon by the Imperial Navy, but in so doing he swallowed his pride and bent to the wishes of the greater Imperium - no doubt Guilliman was willing to do similarly, grant some leeway and bending his own rules a bit in the early days of the Imperium, in order to get more people around to his way of thinking (i'll scratch your back now by granting you some flexibility, you scratch mine shortly by re-organising).