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stashman
17-09-2008, 15:07
Here is a tricky one (atleast for me).

Squig Hoppers break and we follow the rules as writen.

Movement Phase
1. Declare Charges

2. Rally Fleeing Troops
---- Lets say the Hoppers rally.

3. Compulsory Moves (move troops that are subject to a compulsory movement rule)
---- Boiiing! Squig Hoppers are moved during the compulsory movement phase and ALWAYS travel a full 3D6" in a straight line....


So after the hoppers have rallied the move on?

Army Books overides Rulebook many times.

Braad
17-09-2008, 15:59
As far as I know, a unit that has rallied may never move (maybe apart from magic moves).
Does the here ALWAYS overrule the NEVER? They do say army specific rules override the BRB stuff... But if that was the intention?

Off of the top of my mind, I think RAW-wise you could be right, but you risk being bombarded with BRB's if you try to pull this off.

And I don't have my books at hand, so don't hang me on this.

Bac5665
17-09-2008, 16:03
I would think that never would trump always, but its not clear. Yay, you found the 10,000th ambiguous rule in the O&G book!! You are a winner!!

stashman
17-09-2008, 23:29
It's not about too be a winner but the squigs don't stand still, so if you rally the keep jumping around and if you don't the keep jumping away.

You can flee with fast cav and still move, so why shouldn't squig hopper do that?

There isn't anything saying, when squig hoppers rally they don't boiiing!

So I think and will hold on too that squig hoppers always boiiing! no matter the situation, untill someone can prove me wrong.

Avian
18-09-2008, 06:34
"Always" in the context of Squig Hoppers has been proven to not mean always around half the time. If it actually meant always it would be almost impossible to charge with them, for one thing.

Braad
18-09-2008, 08:27
That's true, when they hit something, always suddenly is not always anymore.

They really should be more cafefull with writing those books.

Tarax
18-09-2008, 08:54
They really should be more cafefull with writing those books.

No. It's just that there are some people out there who want to read more into the rules than is intended and are willing to abuse it.

I hate to say this, but: They intended to write the rules with players in mind who have a decent amount of intelligence, understanding or comprehension and who are not abusing the rules, splitting hairs or powergaming.

Hey, we can't help it if they forget that it may be the other way round.

Avian
18-09-2008, 09:30
I think it's a bit of both. Some of the time a tiny bit of extra work could have made things a lot more clear, but there is always going to be some areas where the wording could be twisted to absurdity if a person really tries.

But I agree that if you spend 30 seconds thinking about it, you realise that you CANNOT take "always" in this context to actually mean "always", it has to be "whenever possible".

Lorcryst
18-09-2008, 10:52
As far as my limited intelligence allows me, I think that the "always" in the Boiiing! rules means that you cannot move less than what you rolled on the 3D6 for the Hoppers movement ... no careful "short moving" with them to avoid being charged, and other such tactical ploys ...

Fast Cavalry has been brought up, with their own, specific, special rule that allow them to rally and then move ... but Squig Hoppers AREN'T Fast Cavalry, that specific, special rule cannot be applied to them.

Also, yes, Army Book rules supercedes the main rules ... IF and ONLY IF they are specifically written so in the Army Book ... no such thing in the Hoppers rules (badly written as they are) ...

So I'd say that Hoppers that flee and subsequently rally are bound by the standard Battle rules : they get a free reform (mighty handy for skirmishers ...) and then they stop there, since they aren't Fast Cavalry and their special rules don't mention a thing about moving after rallying (for another example, see Skarsnik's special rules, it's quite specifically written in there that units that flee and then rally can do other things when he's the General of the army, contrary to the main rules).

Braad
18-09-2008, 11:25
No. It's just that there are some people out there who want to read more into the rules than is intended and are willing to abuse it.

And because there will always be gamers that abuse, they have to write more carefull.
In my group, we try to go with logic and whatever is most fun. That's a good approach. But as most players now and then want to go out and meet new gamers, theres always a risk to run in abusing people. If they would just do a bit more re-reading on the books, it would save a lot of troubles and discussions in those circumstances.

EvC
18-09-2008, 12:01
As far as my limited intelligence allows me, I think that the "always" in the Boiiing! rules means that you cannot move less than what you rolled on the 3D6 for the Hoppers movement ... no careful "short moving" with them to avoid being charged, and other such tactical ploys ...

Be careful of what you say... by your reasoning, if you roll 10" and there's an enemy 5" away, then you can't charge them as that would be moving less than what you rolled on the 3D6! Alternately hitting the table edge, friendly units (or do they bounce over?) etc...

semersonp
18-09-2008, 14:50
sadly, the squig hoppers don't move on a turn they have rallied... just like they don't move on a turn they have squabbled... silly? yeah... i mean the riders are too busy to fight because they are hanging on for dear life to the ears/horns/sticky bits of their mad mount but they find enough time to crack wise about each others mommas and for some reason the riders bickering doesn't allow their squigs to bound about...

i know, it makes me sad too... :p


And because there will always be gamers that abuse, they have to write more carefull.
In my group, we try to go with logic and whatever is most fun. That's a good approach...

abuse? naw mate, people just like thought out rules that are well written and unambiguous... if we rely solely on gamer logic then we're left with the ole' "bang bang, i got you!" countered with "no you didn't, you missed!"... :)

we all went through that in our youth and i for one am glad to have a measure of definitives in my more current hobbies...

a number of gaming groups will say that attacking a bsb directly is dirty pool... some people will not allow special characters... others argue that dragons are too powerful... a few will even say that x number of power dice aren't allowed...

this isn't abuse... this is divergence...

and it happens everywhere...

landing on 'free parking' does not net you monetary rewards, starcraft has no internal rules regarding 'rushing' and hitting a basket from under the garage gutter does not yield four points...

yet monopoly games are won after raking in cash from taxes, 'tvb no rush' persists and house rules reign on driveways across the globe...

thankfully there is a codified set of rules available for this great game we call warhammer... and with it players all around the world can compare games with perfect clarity... o+g vs. dwarfs in one country has the same implications as in another... both armies begin 24" apart, have the same rules/restrictions, etc...

but once you begin to deviate and allow house logic to dominate your experience... the perfect parallels begin to break down and the magic of global comparability is lost...

nothing but incestuous pockets of rules oddities remain and different camps will defend their own interpretations ad nauseam, even in the face of clearly more accurate rulings... (i once came across a gaming group that used the bsb to re-roll panic tests, they kept on doing so just because that was how they always had done it)... is this a bad thing? nope, its just not right...

and i think the majority of warhammer players are after what is right... what is best for the game and the enjoyment we take from it... fast games where all players are aware of the same rules and the story of the battle is paramount to house rules and needless tolerations are set aside... and note that what i consider needless may be grossly aberrant to what someone else considers so...

that being said there is no reason to roll over and accept ill-milled army books and ill-conceived rule sets with the blanket response of 'it makes sense to me'... don't let your own certainty as to rules interpretations dissuade you from realizing others are just as sure as you are, nor keep you from demanding a better product from those who make a living producing a game system treasured by masses of people...

demand quality!

the folks at games workshop have a job... just like you or me - their job is to produce a quality product... imagine if you turned in a proposal to your director that wasn't bound properly, had serious gaps in composition, failed to address key issues and didn't jive at all with company philosophy or your own established standards in your field... what would happen?

anyway, squig hoppers don't move after they've rallied... just be thankful they don't bounce from unit to unit for infinity anymore... small favors, eh? ;)

stashman
18-09-2008, 16:48
Thanks for all.

Thanks again Avian :D

Lorcryst
18-09-2008, 18:26
Be careful of what you say... by your reasoning, if you roll 10" and there's an enemy 5" away, then you can't charge them as that would be moving less than what you rolled on the 3D6! Alternately hitting the table edge, friendly units (or do they bounce over?) etc...

I was being careful (with the reference to my intelligence), but also I thought that the second half of the rule covered that quite nicely : "If the dice result will bring the Squig Hoppers into contact with an enemy unit, then it is treated as declaring a charge and follows all of the normal rules (eg: the target unit can make a charge response as normal).", O&G Army Book, page 26.

In the normal rules for a charge, do you have to go through an enemy unit if your charge move is greater than the distance separating your unit from the enemy unit ? Nope, you stop once you reach the enemy.

Errm ... please remember that I'm only writing my opinions here, I'm not the one who wrote the book, and I don't pretend to know the rules better than GW (well, I do know more of the Battle rules than half of the staff at my local GW store, but that's beside the point).

Braad
18-09-2008, 18:47
Come to think of it, it would be cooler if the squigs would move 3D6 in a random direction instead of not moving at all as a squable result...

Urgat
19-09-2008, 08:13
Mmh...
Yeap, it would. I was about to say no, and figured everytime my squigs squabbled, it was in front of something nasty for them... So even running back or behind a 500000x551 cube volume of wood and foliage would be better than just standing there like an idiot waiting to be charged I suppose.

Plus it's better than my wild squigs rule, in a scenarised battle I played, there were wild (riderless) squigs, they would squatter on any double for their movement. Since I was the one playing them, at least one of the two units scattered each turn :p
Which was very fun: at, say, 6" from an objective, they decide to make a U-turn and charge the unit of marauders entrenched in a house. Very nasty (for the squigs), but very characterful :)

vinny t
20-09-2008, 19:27
The rulebook says you can't move, after rallying, but the Armybook says always move, I would let them move, just not move into someone (charge).

Da GoBBo
24-09-2008, 08:52
That is not what the book it says. It says Squighoppers are moved during the compulsory movement phase and always travel a full 3D6". It doesn't say they allways move during the compulsory movement phase. "Allways" points to the amount of movement (they travel 3D6") not the movement actually comming about. Squighoppers don't move after rallying

eyeolas
24-09-2008, 21:50
here's another one for you guys, can squig hoppers move through your own units?

semersonp
24-09-2008, 22:08
nope, sadly...

they are a tremendous buy... just not THAT tremendous :)

eyeolas
25-09-2008, 20:43
the question is because the rules state '...must always move a full 3d6...', and stopping for a unit means you've moved less than your full 3d6