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The_Patriot
19-09-2008, 00:22
What would you like to see for a 5th edition versions of Sisters/GK/DW? Personally, I'd like to see the return of the Ecclessiarchy assets to the list like the zealots, church officials, Celestian upgrade options, and expanded transport options for Sisters to include things like drop pods. For GK, I'd like to see the points drop on them, the addition of drop pods, and more choices that are inline with standard Marines. For DW, I can see them being a standard Marine list with the addition of an Inquisitor.

EDIT to include the list of what everyone had said they'd like to see:

HQs

Select the HQ unit to determine what forces that can be used in the other slots.

Inquisition Forces

Inquisitor Lord (pick Ordo then select wargear and psyker powers for that Ordo, unlimited Adepta Sororitas units, unlimited Inquisitional Guard, unlimited Arbites, unlimited Grey Knights, unlimited Deathwatch, disallowed from Frateris Militia/Zealots/Penitent Engines/Arcos)

Arbites Forces

Arbites Judge - A real Judge Dredd Styled character, Each judge leads a precincts and is responsible for all their actions. Probably a compulsory choice for the army. Lots of options, Bike (For true Dredd action) or Cyber Mastif (Or both even, dog on the back of the bike)

Arbite Chaplin - I heard about this guy once but I can't remember what their role is other then the obvious morale officer. Maybe give him some special rules (Fearless? ATSKNF?)

Sanctioned Psyker - Makes a degree of sense, Police work assisted by psychics. Or alternatively, they are a rather powerful Psykers with the Arbites acting as a bodyguard in high risk areas.

Priests - These guys are like mini-inquisitors considering how much they get around. They would probably be hanging around if there was anything that impacted the Ecclesiarchy in anyway. That or the Church is making sure that their 'property' isn't being misused. (The Ecclesiarchy runs the orphanage. hence why any male that isn't Assassin, Inquisitor, Commissar, Storm Trooper or Arbite material is a priest and why any girl who's the same becomes a Sister)


Ecclesiarchy Forces

Canonness (Army is limited to Adepta Sororitas units only and disallows drop pods, but gains the ability to have 0-1 Famolus, Dialogus, and Hospitallers in 0-3 Celestian unit)
Palatine (same as Canoness except the limit is reduced to 0-2)
Cardinal (Allows orbital bombardments, drop pods/Valks/Arvus Lighters for Adepta Sororitas, unlimited choices of Adepta Sororitas units, 0-1 restriction on Frateris Militia units, 0-1 on Famolus/Dialogus/Hospitaller upgrades, Arcos/Penitent)
Confessor (Allows DCAs, unlimited Frateris Militia units, 0-1 restriction on Adepta Sororitas units, Arcos/Penitent)
Missionary (Allows DCAs, unlimited Zealots units, 0-1 restriction on Frateris Militia units, Arcos/Penitent)

Grey Knight Forces

Grey Knight Hero (GM or BC, retinues as per codex)
Grey Knight Chaplain (Retinue available as well)

Deathwatch Forces

Deathwatch Captain (Preferred enemy when hitting xenos, ability to use the sternguard special ammo would also be a good start to making them different from other captains, Deathwatch squad as retinue)
Deathwatch Specialist (Librarian, Chaplain, Techmarine, etc, can take their own Deathwatch squad as a retinue)

Elites

Inquisition Forces

IST
Inquisitors (Pick Ordo)
Assassins

Arbites Forces

Veterans - Hardened individuals from many years of service whom refuse to climb the ranks. Greater range of options and may purchase special grenades.
Scout or infiltrate special rule. Repressor, Rhino and Chimera transport options available.

Snipers - For when Close Quarters just wont do. Also, for taking down high priority targets.

0-1 Mercenary group - Though unusual it isn't entirely unheard of. They don't subscribe to the same doctrines as the Arbites and so, if there was a difficult target or a situation that they can't attend to due to red-tape they why not just make it look like rival gangs/rogue hitman/Down-and-out-of-luck scum with nothing to lose.
Service is exchanged for wilful ignorance or clean record.

Ecclesiarchy Forces

Frateris Militia Veterans
Celestians
Frenzied Zealots
Arcos
Sister Repentia
Death Cultists

Grey Knight Forces

Grey Knight Terminators

Deathwatch Forces

Deathwatch Terminators (Crazy ammo options, maybe even some that can go into the assault cannon)

Troops

Inquisition Forces

Inquisitional Guard
Cultist mob (These guys could be cultists unwittingly being used by a radical inquisitor, they could have certain marks of chaos to augment them. Obviously they would not be able to be fielded alongside knights)

Arbites Forces

Arbites Squad - Frag and Krak grenades, Shot-guns and fancy ammo as standard kit. Can exchange Shot-gun and ammo for Stub pistol (laspistol), Shock Maul and Suppression shield. can purchase a Cyber-mastif controller so unit is accompanied by said same dog.
May take up to two special weapons (Flamers, Meltas, Plasma, Heavy Stubber, Grenade Launcher)
May purchase melta-bombs and one type of special grenade.
If half or more of the unit has Shields then everyone has an invulnerable save.

Repressor, Rhino and Chimera transport options available.

K-9 Unit - Up to 4 Arbites all armed with Shield, Maul and Pistol. Each may purchase up to 4 Mastiffs each. can not purchase more K-9 units then Arbites Squads.
Maybe a Power-weapon upgrade?

PDF Platoon - Effectively Conscripts in stats and arrangement. Throw in a Chaplin for some Tar pitting fun.

Ecclesiarchy Forces

Battle Sisters
Frateris Militia Conscripts
Zealot Mob

Grey Knight Forces

Grey Knights (I think it could be fun, as well as not overly game breaking to let them teleport into battle as per the fast attack knights. Currently there those guys are a horrible choice since they can't score, which frankly doesn't make much sense since they are exactly the same as regular knights)

Deathwatch Forces

Deathwatch Squad (Crazy ammo options, insane customization, like the current rules, but more insane! )

Fast Attack

Inquisition Forces

Inquisitional Guard in a Chimera/Hellhound

Arbites Forces

Attack Bikes - Arbites on Bikes.
Arbite Sentinel units - Sentinel units with Arbite pilots.

Ecclesiarchy Forces

Seraphim
Dominion
Frateris Militia Bombers
Zealot Purifiers

Grey Knight Forces

Grey Knight Jetbikers
Grey Knight Land Speeder

Deathwatch Forces

Deathwatch Assault Marines (Not too big a fan of this idea actually)
Deathwatch Bikers (Even less of a fan, though it wouldn't be too hard to imagine, *cough* Warrior Coven)

Heavy Support

Available to All Forces, Except Arbites

Orbital Bombardment

Inquisition Forces

Inquisitional Leman Russ
Inquisitional Land Raider
Super Crazy Daemonic Tank Buster Soulgrinder Type Dude (Radical)

Arbites Forces

Arbite heavy weapon teams - Though really rare that Arbites will require heavy weapons there has been occasions when they have had to hold a location no matter what the cost.
Essentially an Arbite version of the IG equivalent.
May purchase Repressor, Rhino or Chimera transport.
Arbite Armoured Response Vehicle - Based on the adaptable Chimera design, these tanks exchange their troop and cargo space for increased ammo, larger weapon arrangement as well as advanced communication equipment to keep the command structure strong. an extra heavy weapon may be mounted on the tank (Probably a rear hatch turret).
Comms-equipment, anyone within 12" may use the highest unmodified Ld value in range for all checks.
If more then one tank is present then it applies to anyone within 12" of any tank as all information is passed from one tank to another.

Ecclesiarchy Forces

Retributers
Exorcists
Immolator
Ecclesiarchy based Chimera
Ecclesiarchy based Leman Russ
Penitent Engines

Grey Knights Forces

Grey Knight Purgation Squad
Grey Knight Dreadnought
Grey Knight Venerable Dreadnought (I'm thinking that all GK dreads should be venerable by default, since the only difference would be the damage table reroll, as GK dreads are all ws5 anyway)
Grey Knight Land Raiders (Regular, Crusader, Redeemer, and hopefully the crazy FW variant with psycannon sponsons that i remember reading about somewhere)

Deathwatch Forces

Deathwatch Awesome Suspensor Heavy Weapon Guys (I think these guys should have access to the other heavy weapons, besides the standard heavy weapons. I could see heavy flamers working pretty well here)
Deathwatch Dreadnought
Deathwatch Land Raiders (Same deal with GK, except minus the GK variant of course)

Transports
Drop Pods
Arvus Lighter
Valkyries
Rhino
Repressor
Immolator
Buggies
Chimera
Land Raider
War Cathedral

Inq. Veltane
19-09-2008, 00:34
I'd just like them to actually balance Inquisitorial Retinues. Right now you pay a lot of points for a unit that isn't very good and is very fragile. Maybe allow you to take more than three warriors (so at least then you effectively have a IST Squad lead by an Inquisitor, but gaining the benefits to his stats).

What else? I suppose reducing transport costs in line with C:SM would be nice. To be honest I wouldn't want Drop Pods or anything, they should stay Space Marine only. I guess I'd advocate allowing Grey Knight squads to Deep Strike (as per Teleport Attack) but remaining Troops choices (so that they can score).

Deathwatch should make an appearance finally, basically just very similar to Sternguard. I'm not sure what else I'd do. I wouldn't make sweeping changes.

cailus
19-09-2008, 00:39
To be honest I actually fear GW releasing a DH/WH codex cause it will probably result in a massive gutting of options.

I know the Marine codex is full of options but that is the Marine codex. The other codexes have had big reductions in wargear and flexibility in favour of a more dumb down approach.

Tags
19-09-2008, 00:45
I prefer the DH over the other Ordos. However fleshing out the DW would be nice, and the WH and DH need more options. Granted you can induct IG... so what you have to pick up two troops choices and yer so limited in what you can take from the IG it's not worth it. Can't even combine GK with SM at all. The GK shouldn't have everything an SM chapter has but more options would be nice. What would be really sweet is if they actually made some exclusive to the GK.

The_Patriot
19-09-2008, 00:55
@Inq. Veltane: Why are drop pods Space Marine only? Should we ignore the fluff regarding how Sisters of Battle use them as well? I agree that retinues should be redone to allow for maximum flexibility.

@Calius: A lot of the options presented in both codexes are useless anyway. I wouldn't miss quite a few options currently available. However, one of the options I'd like to see become standard would be the basic kit including grenades, bolt pistol, and a close combat weapon for all of the units available.

@Tags: Agreed in that both armies need more options and fleshing out. More so for DH and DW then for Sisters since a lot of the Sisters options were left behind in the 2nd ed codex that can be implemented easily. DW and DH suffer from a lack of variety in their unit picks.

cailus
19-09-2008, 01:04
@Calius: A lot of the options presented in both codexes are useless anyway. I wouldn't miss quite a few options currently available. However, one of the options I'd like to see become standard would be the basic kit including grenades, bolt pistol, and a close combat weapon for all of the units available.

As we all know GW won't just take the useless options away but the useful ones as well. You will of course get more one-trick ponies (e.g. Chaos got lash princes, Daemons got their assault rules, Da got Ravenwing/Death wing combo, Orks got cheaper than anything else, Marines got the kitchen sink but they are Marines after all).

The_Patriot
19-09-2008, 01:17
As we all know GW won't just take the useless options away but the useful ones as well. You will of course get more one-trick ponies (e.g. Chaos got lash princes, Daemons got their assault rules, Da got Ravenwing/Death wing combo, Orks got cheaper than anything else, Marines got the kitchen sink but they are Marines after all).

Well, considering that DH and WH are already one trick ponies the removal of options wouldn't impact them nearly as much. When I refer to one trick pony status the DH have The Shrouding and Sisters have Faith. You do have a point that they would remove some of the more useful options from the list.

Elric of Grans
19-09-2008, 01:41
Yeah, I sure wish my Sisters had free Frag Grenades, Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons. They are such close combat beasts that these options would really help... OK, those freebies are useless. They make sense on Beakies, as they are supposed to be shooty and assaulty, but not Sisters. I would also not like to see Drop Pods, which would plain not make sense on Grey Knights: I can be hurtled down at break-neck speeds, change my pants, then attack, or I can make a casual teleport and *pop* there instantly!

I would like to see the Sisters get a new Codex, one where they are not filled with useless options and poor ideas, but I doubt it will happen. When they do update it, we will likely get a butchering. They will probably strip out everything that makes people play Sisters and just turn them into cheaper, weaker Beakies. It would be very easy to tweak the Sisters for a small rebalance, fix the units that never worked, then perhaps slot in some real options, but I have no confidence in them doing this.

Tags
19-09-2008, 01:45
I'm no fan of the shrouding, true grit is great. Dunno what options GW could actually remove though.

Inq. Veltane
19-09-2008, 01:45
@Inq. Veltane: Why are drop pods Space Marine only? Should we ignore the fluff regarding how Sisters of Battle use them as well? I agree that retinues should be redone to allow for maximum flexibility.

Because I prefer for armies to not all be the same. I mean, there is fluff of Imperial Guardsmen using (slightly larger) Drop Pods too... and almost all armies have equivalents. I just don't think Sisters need it.

Bloodknight
19-09-2008, 02:03
The sisters should have an own Codex, with all the madness of the Ecclesiarchy, but without the bolt-on Inquisitor. From a fluff point of view, I still wonder why they were stuffed together with the Witch Hunter inquisitors.

The_Patriot
19-09-2008, 02:08
Yeah, I sure wish my Sisters had free Frag Grenades, Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons. They are such close combat beasts that these options would really help... OK, those freebies are useless. They make sense on Beakies, as they are supposed to be shooty and assaulty, but not Sisters. I would also not like to see Drop Pods, which would plain not make sense on Grey Knights: I can be hurtled down at break-neck speeds, change my pants, then attack, or I can make a casual teleport and *pop* there instantly!

I would like to see the Sisters get a new Codex, one where they are not filled with useless options and poor ideas, but I doubt it will happen. When they do update it, we will likely get a butchering. They will probably strip out everything that makes people play Sisters and just turn them into cheaper, weaker Beakies. It would be very easy to tweak the Sisters for a small rebalance, fix the units that never worked, then perhaps slot in some real options, but I have no confidence in them doing this.

I wouldn't exactly call a bolt pistol and a close combat weapon useless. That is, afterall, 1 free attack in assaults. Granted the Sisters aren't the best hand to hand combat armies out there, but every bit of kit will help.

Fair point regarding the GK, but it should still be an option considering that basic troops don't get to use teleporters. They could be changed to where it's a viable choice that all of the GK units can teleport or use drop pods.

Face it, the bulk of the tactics used in the Imperium follow either beakie doctrine or massed formations ala IG. There really isn't an in-between. Given the options for DH and WH that's pretty much the only way they fight. If you take GK or Sisters you're fielding a beakie army. If you take inducted Guard you're fighting as an IG horde army.


Because I prefer for armies to not all be the same. I mean, there is fluff of Imperial Guardsmen using (slightly larger) Drop Pods too... and almost all armies have equivalents. I just don't think Sisters need it.

Not all armies are the same even when they're given the same options. IG have drop troops and Marines have drop pods, so do either of these armies play the same? Not at all, since they are geared up differently. I don't believe that Sisters should be given the shaft when it comes to transport options out of a fear of having the army play the same as Marines. You'll also run into the problem of the army not being able to perform a planetary invasion, since they have no way to get through the atmosphere.

Cannoness Oleatha turns to Sister Superior Ethel and orders the deployment of the Order's troops through the atmosphere. Due to the oversight of the Munitorium and/or the Ecclessiarchy they were deprived of drop pods or other trans-atmospheric craft. The sisters loaded up onto their trusty Rhinos and Immolators as the launch bay was vented to space and the heretical planet filled the opening. The Sisters were launched into space aimed at the planet below. The troop transports shook and bounced as they hit the atmosphere. The hulls of the Rhinos and Immolators glowed red hot before exploding shortly afterward in massive balls of flame. Thus ended the glorious assault of the Order of Our Martyed Lady during the Ecclessiarchy crusade to retake the Protothesis system from the heretical Chaos worshippers.

That's how things are currently under the current rules. :D

El Haroldo
19-09-2008, 03:05
BECAUSE EVERY RACE WITHOUT DROP PODS JUSTS JUMPS OUT OF SPACESHIPS INTO ATMOSPHERE. PLEASE SOMEONE THINK OF THE POOR SISTERS AND GIVE THEM DROP PODS :( :(

It's not like every race has an in-game method of orbit-to-ground deployment. Mareenz get their drop pods...that's it.

Like non-drop pod marines, or IG, Sisters probably launch from orbit in landing craft/shuttles, set up away from the frontlines and then march/drive into battle. Sisters fight in bulk, their fanaticism making up for any lack in skill, throwing themselves at enemy formations. They don't strike behind enemy lines, blow up a power station and then brutally smash up an artillery the way marines do.

The footslogging or mech. style of play are prefectly valid and I don't see how a lack of drop pods equals 'being given the shaft'.

BladeWalker
19-09-2008, 03:09
I am hoping for a Codex Inquisition that allows for all the options we have now and more. The list can be limited or focused by the type of HQ chosen as we have seen in other new codex. These ideas have been kicked around and hinted at for a while now, I hope they hold true. If the book is a long way off or not to be made at all, I think GW is missing a good opportunity to re-introduce the GK as the answer to all the Daemon armies.

Asharoth
19-09-2008, 03:12
I believe that the reason sisters were put into the same codex as inquisitors is because the ecchlessiarchy is not allowed to maintain their own war fleets. Sisters may be able to ride in drop pods, but I dont think that they can assault a planet without the support of an armed force that can provide them with orbital support.

So....drop pods should be allowed for sisters, but only if there's an inquisitor present, as per the orbital bombardment rules.

The_Patriot
19-09-2008, 03:18
BECAUSE EVERY RACE WITHOUT DROP PODS JUSTS JUMPS OUT OF SPACESHIPS INTO ATMOSPHERE. PLEASE SOMEONE THINK OF THE POOR SISTERS AND GIVE THEM DROP PODS :( :(

It's not like every race has an in-game method of orbit-to-ground deployment. Mareenz get their drop pods...that's it.

Like non-drop pod marines, or IG, Sisters probably launch from orbit in landing craft/shuttles, set up away from the frontlines and then march/drive into battle. Sisters fight in bulk, their fanaticism making up for any lack in skill, throwing themselves at enemy formations. They don't strike behind enemy lines, blow up a power station and then brutally smash up an artillery the way marines do.

The footslogging or mech. style of play are prefectly valid and I don't see how a lack of drop pods equals 'being given the shaft'.

IG use shuttles, trans-atmospheric transports like the Valk, drop pods, and other methods of deployment via the air.

Marine use thunderhawks, teleporters, and drop pods.

Eldar and Dark Eldar use the webway to enter a planet.

Tyranids and Orks use a ship to crashland onto a planet.

Necrons phase onto the planet from tomb ships or already present on planets due to it being a tomb world.

Tau have their Hammerheads and other transport vehicles to go between atmosphere and space.

Only one army in the entire game has no options for an air insertion. Yes, this means that every army outside of Sisters has a method of deploying onto a planet in a combat assault. Hence, the reason for my satirical story of the Order of Our Martyred Lady. ;)


I believe that the reason sisters were put into the same codex as inquisitors is because the ecchlessiarchy is not allowed to maintain their own war fleets. Sisters may be able to ride in drop pods, but I dont think that they can assault a planet without the support of an armed force that can provide them with orbital support.

So....drop pods should be allowed for sisters, but only if there's an inquisitor present, as per the orbital bombardment rules.

I could see that point of view, but the Imperial Navy provides warship support during an Ecclessiarchy crusade. There wouldn't be a need for requiring an Inquisitor to use drop pods. A good idea, nonetheless. :)

EDIT: What about requiring a Cardinal or other high ranking Ecclessiarchy official to be taken in order to use drop pods or other trans-atmospheric options?

Templar Ben
19-09-2008, 03:49
My Thread on how to rebuild them (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159559)

Another thread on what Inq should be (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162335)

If you want look though those and see if there are any ideas you want to incorporate. In my thread I focused on what could be made in plastic easily since the pricing for metals would keep people from playing. If this is to discuss how to build the codex then perhaps we can create a great list on our own for 5th edition.

The_Patriot
19-09-2008, 03:55
My Thread on how to rebuild them (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159559)

Another thread on what Inq should be (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162335)

If you want look though those and see if there are any ideas you want to incorporate. In my thread I focused on what could be made in plastic easily since the pricing for metals would keep people from playing. If this is to discuss how to build the codex then perhaps we can create a great list on our own for 5th edition.

Always a welcome sight to see you Ben. This is more along the lines of the Codex rather then the miniatures. Between everyone participating I'm sure we could come up with a rather good Codex: Inquisition book that would do all three of the armies justice while presenting new ways of playing those armies. With the armies done we could focus on what they need miniatures wise. :)

Elric of Grans
19-09-2008, 04:11
So, humans absolutely must, with no possibility of any exception, be Beakies or Guard. Even if an alternative possibility exists, it cannot be because that would just take too much effort to comprehend and likely cause our heads to explode! I am sorry, but I do not agree. If they are going to do anything with the Sisters, they should be taking them along their own path. The game is already far too skewed towards Beakies, so we do not need them to be another clone of them, while there is no way you could have 200 cheap Power Armoured warriors on the board in a 1000 point match either. Is it so wrong to want a third option?

Personally, I want to see the Sisters become less Beaky in their next codex and become something in between the two. Neither `Bwahaha, iz teh ubar supar humanz' nor a hoard of canon fodder protecting the big guns. Fantasy Battle manages to have more than two kinds of army (agreed, I am intentionally ignoring Xenos here), so why do we have to be so restricted in 40K? One of the biggest problems in 40K is that the meta-game is far too skewed towards MEQ. I only have one non-Beaky opponent where I play, and the fifth edition codeci have, so far, been largely dominated by them. Next year should go a long way to rectifying this, but Jervis is already talking about making a new codex for every Chaos chapter. Those guys cannot maintain the number of codeci they currently have, let alone more, and the last thing we need is another bunch of moderately changed carbon copies.

As for the two attacks in close combat, if we pit 10 Beakies against 10 Sisters now, the Beakies swing first and kill 1.78 Sisters. The Sisters retaliate, with their vastly superior equipment (Space Marines get a Bolt Pistol, not a Bolt Pistol and a Close Combat Weapon), will kill 0.97. WOW!! So, buy being rude and giving the shooty oriented army better close combat equipment than the all-rounder army they are still inferior in combat! Who would have thought! Good thing they are Stubborn on Ld9 or 10 (if the Canoness is nearby), or else they would break and, with their lower Initiative, probably get cut down in a sweeping advance. Admittedly, the Space Marines cost more (170pts vs 124pts), but even at equal points the Sisters probably kill around 1.4 Beakies (I could not be bothered working this out twice), despite the completely illogical equipment. Do you think Tau Fire Warriors should be given Relic Blades? They could use some additional close combat power too, you know.

By the way, ordinary Grey Knights do teleport. Sure, in the codex it is called a `Fast Attack', but regular Battle Sisters in a Rhino was once called `Fast Attack' too. A Drop Pod is beyond pointless.

The_Patriot
19-09-2008, 04:23
So, humans absolutely must, with no possibility of any exception, be Beakies or Guard. Even if an alternative possibility exists, it cannot be because that would just take too much effort to comprehend and likely cause our heads to explode! I am sorry, but I do not agree. If they are going to do anything with the Sisters, they should be taking them along their own path. The game is already far too skewed towards Beakies, so we do not need them to be another clone of them, while there is no way you could have 200 cheap Power Armoured warriors on the board in a 1000 point match either. Is it so wrong to want a third option?

Nothing wrong with having a third option. I presented how it currently is. Instead of blasting me maybe you should have thought of a third option to fit Sisters into it. ;)


Personally, I want to see the Sisters become less Beaky in their next codex and become something in between the two. Neither `Bwahaha, iz teh ubar supar humanz' nor a hoard of canon fodder protecting the big guns. Fantasy Battle manages to have more than two kinds of army (agreed, I am intentionally ignoring Xenos here), so why do we have to be so restricted in 40K? One of the biggest problems in 40K is that the meta-game is far too skewed towards MEQ. I only have one non-Beaky opponent where I play, and the fifth edition codeci have, so far, been largely dominated by them. Next year should go a long way to rectifying this, but Jervis is already talking about making a new codex for every Chaos chapter. Those guys cannot maintain the number of codeci they currently have, let alone more, and the last thing we need is another bunch of moderately changed carbon copies.

See above and you have my undivided attention.


As for the two attacks in close combat, if we pit 10 Beakies against 10 Sisters now, the Beakies swing first and kill 1.78 Sisters. The Sisters retaliate, with their vastly superior equipment (Space Marines get a Bolt Pistol, not a Bolt Pistol and a Close Combat Weapon), will kill 0.97. WOW!! So, buy being rude and giving the shooty oriented army better close combat equipment than the all-rounder army they are still inferior in combat! Who would have thought! Good thing they are Stubborn on Ld9 or 10 (if the Canoness is nearby), or else they would break and, with their lower Initiative, probably get cut down in a sweeping advance. Admittedly, the Space Marines cost more (170pts vs 124pts), but even at equal points the Sisters probably kill around 1.4 Beakies (I could not be bothered working this out twice), despite the completely illogical equipment. Do you think Tau Fire Warriors should be given Relic Blades? They could use some additional close combat power too, you know.

Yes, because getting a close combat weapon like a knife is illogical. ;) Every infantryman since history was recorded had a close combat weapon like a knife. Why should the Sisters be any different? Are they as good as dedicated close combat units? Nope, but then no one that is firepower orientated is. Also Mathhammer fails the moment reality hits it.


By the way, ordinary Grey Knights do teleport. Sure, in the codex it is called a `Fast Attack', but regular Battle Sisters in a Rhino was once called `Fast Attack' too. A Drop Pod is beyond pointless.

Then those ordinary Grey Knights are no longer basic troops, but a Fast Attack choice. That defeats the purpose of giving them a teleport since they no longer are scoring.

/sarcasm Yes, a drop pod is so pointless that it's listed as an option in the Space Marine Codex and drop troops for IG. Air mobile/drop capable certainly is pointless since putting your units on the ground exactly where you need them lead to strategic failures. Who knew that Marines and IG were fighting with outdated methods of waging war! Footslogging is the way to go... way a minute... almost all armies in the real world are combined arms with a focus on tactical objective gains by deploying troops as far forward to the objective and footslogging/trenches went the way of the dodo.

El Haroldo
19-09-2008, 04:37
IG use shuttles, trans-atmospheric transports like the Valk, drop pods, and other methods of deployment via the air.

Only one army in the entire game has no options for an air insertion. Yes, this means that every army outside of Sisters has a method of deploying onto a planet in a combat assault.


Sisters would use the same methods as Guard yeah? I specifically said 'in-game' because Valkyries, Thunderhawks, Webway portals etc don't show up on tabletops too often.

And where is the precedent for sisters in drop pods? I've never encountered it.

The_Patriot
19-09-2008, 04:39
Sisters would use the same methods as Guard yeah? I specifically said 'in-game' because Valkyries, Thunderhawks, Webway portals etc don't show up on tabletops too often.

And where is the precedent for sisters in drop pods? I've never encountered it.

Actually, those do show up on tabletops especially in the larger point games. However, there is nothing for Sisters to use.

Daemonifuge featured the Sisters deploying from drop pods. :)

Templar Ben
19-09-2008, 04:51
Always a welcome sight to see you Ben. This is more along the lines of the Codex rather then the miniatures. Between everyone participating I'm sure we could come up with a rather good Codex: Inquisition book that would do all three of the armies justice while presenting new ways of playing those armies. With the armies done we could focus on what they need miniatures wise. :)

I know this was different. I was just saying to check them out and see if there is anything that struck you as interesting. New ideas from a different view and all.

It is always good to see you on as well. :)

The_Patriot
19-09-2008, 04:57
I know this was different. I was just saying to check them out and see if there is anything that struck you as interesting. New ideas from a different view and all.

It is always good to see you on as well. :)

The one idea I really liked was the choice of the HQ determined the type of force you could field. If someone wanted to deploy a pure Ecclessiarchy force one could take a cannoness and cardinal then build up their force from there. There could be 2 or 3 more choices for each unit class especially in the way of heavy support choices. For Sisters having a choice of an Exorcist or Retributers isn't much of a choice at all since one is better then the other. Maybe an addition of another tank that's similar to a Predator would be a good idea.

thechosenone
19-09-2008, 05:08
To establish my credibility, i play a sisters player almost weekly, i own the codex and i've run a sisters force using a friends models on several occasions.

The sisters are a poor range army better at mid range fire power with great versatility at 12-24 inches. They are much better at shooting then hand to hand. The AP one faith option is about the best thing ever. The Invul armor is second inmy opinion. They are very MEQ like with the exception of weaker special weapon choices. Would giving them a bolt pistol and close combat weapon change much? Not really. I'd still shoot them before i charge them. Miring a squad in hand to hand forever is not really that helpful when your tarpit squad is pricy with regard to tarpit units and is much better at shooting then sitting around useless for three turns in hand to hand. I'd keep the option to purchase the frags and kraks and maybe an option to buy the bolt pistol close combat weapon. Marines are better armed. Its reflected in that. The reality is they probably go to battle with these things but the game system can only reflect so much.

So what's my point? There isn't much you can change about the sisters. They are MEQ with no long range. Excorcists aside. The acts of faith are fine as is. Maybe add a few more, give one that can grant fleet maybe? Maybe one that grants a squad Hit and Run I don't know just throwing it out there. I say don't change what works.

The Inquisitor fits with all these armies and fills in a useful element that pure sisters or grey knights players are ignoring. Those extra long range weapons. You get your gun servitors and that's gold for armies that lack these greatly. Besides the narrative is there too. Neither of these forces go out hunting for corruption and heresy by themselves. Inquisitors seek it out and determine how to deal with it.

On Grey Knights, I have a friend whom i play almost weekly who plays pureGK and i own the codex.

The points are fine. Think about it? A basic troop i may not be able to shoot at who has a storm bolter and who has a weapon that increases his str by 2. You should pay for that. I expect true grit to go. Shrouding is fine so long as the options for ranged fire on GK's remain low. Fair is fair. If they got a devastaor squad that i couldn't target... well sigh. I wouldn't change a whole lot here either. I'd make Orbital strike a wargear choice of some kind. Same for sisters.

As far as sisters getting drop pods or some form of assault entry means. Why? I mean why would you want to do that. Your better at a distance and your much better making drive bys with rhinos and chimeras. In the narrative, it most likely is because teh Eccelisarchy is doesn't maintain any real battle fleet and so its drop pod ability may be limited. Its combat drop ships may be limited in scope to. Perhaps all they have are large gaudy landers.

Some comments were made about math hammer above too. You can't debate math hammer as a means for tactical decision making in these games. Math is math and it doesn't fail. The dice vary one way or another sure but the averages presented by mathammer are the best gauge for tactical thinking along with objective claiming of course.

So all that being said what could be changed in these armies... unit additions and wargear updates. More church units and more HQ choices. Major church figures as HQ choices that may grant army wide black templar esq abilities. More Cults maybe beyond just death cult. Better wargear and updated wargear selection like most army lists have now. Maybe more Inquisitorial retinue choices. Body Guard style servitors, more combat an dgun servitors, witches that can actually cast powers maybe? Just thoughts

thechosenone
19-09-2008, 05:13
Also real quick. I think something that should be kept in mind is that these forces are really hampered by not having or not making use of the allied choices. GK more so them Sisters in my opinion. These forces are only seen in mass in certain scenarios. Lets be honest, sisters just don't show up too often to repel a Waaagh or attack a tomb world. Same with GK. So that needs to be reflected too. They are stand alone forces really only in the scenarios where you'd see them standing alone. Demons, heretics chaos ect... Could i think of examples where these forces would fight just about anything sure... but they are all the exception not the rule

Templar Ben
19-09-2008, 05:13
I would like to have the Puritan WH have SoB, zealots and penitents, priests that are worth taking, and that fight in a manner that makes we think 2nd Crusade but with more fire. As a force that fights mainly in cities (they purge the hives of witches and such) they should be able to quickly move though those areas (like how Repentia ignore difficult terrain) and they need lots of cover removing weapons like flamers and indirect fire.

I would like the Puritan DH have GK and have the entire army able to deep strike similar to the Daemons. This should be the most mobile force as they must get in and stop that ritual.

For the Puritan XH, I would really take the existing DW list and possibly Sternguard. I would like for them to be a great all round force since they go from fighting Orks to Eldar to Tau. They are not just special Space Marines (DW are but XH has more) but I see them having equipment that is too rare (like jet bikes) or too specialized (like anti ork spore weapons) to be used by all Space Marines.

The radical list would get access to the naughty things like daemonhosts but you give up GK, SoB or DW.

All of the lists have Inquisitors and the resultant toys (Orbital Strikes, Assassins, etc.) as well as a generic entry for SM and IG units (so they don't have to refer to those codices).

I know that wasn't terribly clear but I don't see a problem with an army list being very good at one particular thing (like raids) and not as good at something else (like holding a position).

Elric of Grans
19-09-2008, 05:16
Instead of blasting me maybe you should have thought of a third option to fit Sisters into it. ;)

I have, actually. In my gaming group, I was encouraged to write an updated codex and am in the middle of balancing it right now. They are tweaked into their niche without any major changes (eg I am not turning them into a close combat army!!) or new units added to the codex (no Punishers or other dodgy Epic: Armageddon vehicles).


Yes, because getting a close combat weapon like a knife is illogical. ;) Every infantryman since history was recorded had a close combat weapon like a knife.

I am afraid you fail at Archaeology, as not all infantry units have been fielded with close combat weapons. Heck, even in modern warfare (`modern' in the sense of how it is used in the history of war, not as in last week) we have plenty of examples of troops dedicated to either shooting or close combat. In fact, I am am fairly confident that the greater percentage of ranged-specialist units in history have not been equipped with so much as a knife (standard; individuals often carried whatever they damned well pleased).

Besides, the moment you try to bring reality into a sci-fi game you are already missing the point. Could Sisters have a knife? Sure! Could they carry a pistol? Sure, it makes perfect, fluffy sense. Should the shooty army be equipped with two close combat weapons when even the all-rounder army does not? Sorry, it does not make sense. Sisters should be inferior to Beakies in close combat: that is a part of their core design. Sisters and Tau are both designed to be shooty armies with vastly inferior close combat abilities/equipment, and I see no reason to change this.


Then those ordinary Grey Knights are no longer basic troops, but a Fast Attack choice.

You missed the point. Any Grey Knight can teleport, so if we require a means for Grey Knights to Deep Strike, well, they can teleport. This is not a Troops Choice/Fast Attack thing: all Grey Knight can teleport. This is why Drop Pods are useless for Grey Knights. There is no reason for them to use an inferior form of transportation.

As with all Black Library publications, I would not pay much heed to Daemonifuge. It breaks the fluff on more than one occasion, so the Sisters using Drop Pods in the comic in no way means that they officially absolutely must have Drop Pods. Personally, I think it would make more sense for them to get the same things Guard does, but that is merely my opinion rather than having any official fluff (of which there is none) to back it up.

Kettu
19-09-2008, 05:38
Also real quick. I think something that should be kept in mind is that these forces are really hampered by not having or not making use of the allied choices. GK more so them Sisters in my opinion. These forces are only seen in mass in certain scenarios. Lets be honest, sisters just don't show up too often to repel a Waaagh or attack a tomb world. Same with GK. So that needs to be reflected too. They are stand alone forces really only in the scenarios where you'd see them standing alone. Demons, heretics chaos ect... Could i think of examples where these forces would fight just about anything sure... but they are all the exception not the rule

One million marines, Full Stop, and thatís being kind.

There is over a million worlds currently under imperium rule and marines are not deployed much in small battles, only really when they are absolutely needed and even then there is a number of fluff pieces that tell of marines having to refuse to help cause they pick and choose their battles.

There is a minimum of a few hundred sisters on any world with a prominent Ecclessiarchy presence (read: most worlds) with an upward of several thousand of the Emperor's Daughters on shrine worlds.

They are the third most common fighting force in the Imperium. (PDF and IG being the first and second respectively)

So really, by your logic, Space marines should be a 0-1 tactical squad option in the IG codex with anything extra put into Appoc.

El Haroldo
19-09-2008, 05:46
Actually, those do show up on tabletops especially in the larger point games. However, there is nothing for Sisters to use.

Daemonifuge featured the Sisters deploying from drop pods. :)

Hence 'too often'. Outside apocalypse games and IA junkies (you know the type, dressed in rags, lean from hunger, burning desire for more resin) you don't see flyers in your standard 1500 point games.

In such a game, I think it would be perfectly reasonable for a celestian squad to commandeer a Valkryie. Or a scratchbuilt troopship.

Background wise, I'm sure there's loads of options for sisters to get from orbit to ground. But for Codex sisters lists, I don't think they need it represented, and I'm happy as they are. I don't see it changing in the future.

The_Patriot
19-09-2008, 07:04
I have, actually. In my gaming group, I was encouraged to write an updated codex and am in the middle of balancing it right now. They are tweaked into their niche without any major changes (eg I am not turning them into a close combat army!!) or new units added to the codex (no Punishers or other dodgy Epic: Armageddon vehicles).

Well, for starters, I wasn't thinking of turning them into a close combat army. Their stats would most likely remain the same, but the kit options would change to bring them up to parity with the rest of the armies. As it stands now Sisters do not have a close combat weapon at all.


I am afraid you fail at Archaeology, as not all infantry units have been fielded with close combat weapons. Heck, even in modern warfare (`modern' in the sense of how it is used in the history of war, not as in last week) we have plenty of examples of troops dedicated to either shooting or close combat. In fact, I am am fairly confident that the greater percentage of ranged-specialist units in history have not been equipped with so much as a knife (standard; individuals often carried whatever they damned well pleased).

Besides, the moment you try to bring reality into a sci-fi game you are already missing the point. Could Sisters have a knife? Sure! Could they carry a pistol? Sure, it makes perfect, fluffy sense. Should the shooty army be equipped with two close combat weapons when even the all-rounder army does not? Sorry, it does not make sense. Sisters should be inferior to Beakies in close combat: that is a part of their core design. Sisters and Tau are both designed to be shooty armies with vastly inferior close combat abilities/equipment, and I see no reason to change this.

Actually, up until the advent of firearms in the 15th century everyone was armed with a close combat weapon. Even today, common infantrymen are armed with a knife so my statement was a true statement. No one is talking aboult changing the Sisters' WS, but rather give them the ability to defend themselves in close combat.


You missed the point. Any Grey Knight can teleport, so if we require a means for Grey Knights to Deep Strike, well, they can teleport. This is not a Troops Choice/Fast Attack thing: all Grey Knight can teleport. This is why Drop Pods are useless for Grey Knights. There is no reason for them to use an inferior form of transportation.

Deep striking isn't as reliable as drop pods which is why drop pods should remain as a choice for GKs. If all GK can deep strike then they are no longer a basic troop choice while a drop pod will allow them to keep basic troops. Also, it depends upon your point of view on what is inferior. ;)


As with all Black Library publications, I would not pay much heed to Daemonifuge. It breaks the fluff on more than one occasion, so the Sisters using Drop Pods in the comic in no way means that they officially absolutely must have Drop Pods. Personally, I think it would make more sense for them to get the same things Guard does, but that is merely my opinion rather than having any official fluff (of which there is none) to back it up.

Having some fluff trumps having none. Frankly, it doesn't matter to me if the Sisters have drop pods, but what is important is a way to have a way to hit the ground from space and being able to do it in a normal game. I latched onto drop pods because they have a built in disadvantage of giving your opponent automatic VPs and KPs. Yes, you can put those troops anywhere you want to, but at a price of overcoming the built in KP/VP loss. Valks or other aerial options do not have this downside. Drop pods would be more palatable to face then the other options available.


Also real quick. I think something that should be kept in mind is that these forces are really hampered by not having or not making use of the allied choices. GK more so them Sisters in my opinion. These forces are only seen in mass in certain scenarios. Lets be honest, sisters just don't show up too often to repel a Waaagh or attack a tomb world. Same with GK. So that needs to be reflected too. They are stand alone forces really only in the scenarios where you'd see them standing alone. Demons, heretics chaos ect... Could i think of examples where these forces would fight just about anything sure... but they are all the exception not the rule

Actually, Sisters are always fighting in comparison to Marines. Only one army fights more then the Sisters and it's the IG. The bulk of the fighting they do is supplying the backbone to an Ecclessiarchy crusade to retake some planet. The core of said crusade has always been Sisters of Battle.

Elric of Grans
19-09-2008, 09:02
As it stands now Sisters do not have a close combat weapon at all.

In game terms, there is no difference between having a Bolter and having a Close Combat Weapon. On the other hand, having a Pistol and a Close Combat Weapon does make a significant difference in close combat. Look at the new Marine Codex. Marines in Tactical Squads have a Bolter and a Bolt Pistol. They are equipped for shooting, but the Bolt Pistol (Assault 1) allows them to shoot and charge on the same turn (a Bolter, being Rapid Firing, does not). It also allows them to move their heavy weapons and shoot *something* (potentially). Having the Bolt Pistol makes no difference in terms of actual close combat combat (GAME TERMS, not fluff), but gives them an additional advantage to charging. It is the same with Frag Grenades. This shows that the direction of their design was to make them shooty, but ultimately charge the weakened opponent. Assault Squads, on the other hand, have a Bolt Pistol and a Close Combat Weapon. In game terms, they have two close combat weapons, so they gain a bonus in assault (fancy that, Assault Squads are assault oriented). Their shooting is far weaker than in Tactical Squads, so they have to rely more on shooting.

Sisters have Bolters, and a stat-line that suggests they do not want to ever get into close combat. Yes, giving them two close combat weapons would make them more effective in it, but they are not supposed to be. Their brief is that they are a close-range shooty army, not all-rounders. This is often one of the aspects that attracts people to play the Sisters. Rather than being able to do a decent job of anything, the Sisters have to get in close and ensure they annihilate anything that *could* assault them before it does. If your stratagem fails, you should be prepared to face the consequences. This requires tactics, not toys. I would not see giving Sisters two close combat weapons as being logical from a design sense due to the fact that they are not supposed to be equipped for close combat. Would they carry a knife? Maybe, but is that relevant? If you do not like the thought of your Sisters bashing people with the butts of their Bolters then tell your opponent that you stabbed them in the eye. In game terms it makes no difference. Actually giving them two close combat weapons, on the other hand, is going beyond fluff and moving into something completely different.


Actually, up until the advent of firearms in the 15th century everyone was armed with a close combat weapon.

Yes, literally everyone. Fists, knives, tools; literally everyone had these things on-hand, even if they were not involved in war. Now, were they actually equipped with a specialised close combat weapon, such as a sword, spear or axe? In some cases yes, but not all. It is the same here. There is a big difference between a Sister carrying a knife (an item that needs no entry in the codex because it only serves a fluff purpose), which they use after discarding their bolter, and being equipped with a chainsword. In game terms, all three are a single close combat weapon, but in fluff terms it would suggest that the one with the chainsword was equipped specifically for close combat, while the one who had a knife on hand was just thinking `Crap, I rolled a 1 to wound! Now I have a gigantic bug about to bite my head off! Get it off, get it off!' *insert stabbing sounds*


Deep striking isn't as reliable as drop pods which is why drop pods should remain as a choice for GKs.

Drop Pods Deep Strike. If you are referring to beacons, those work for teleporting too.


Having some fluff trumps having none.

I will therefore write a story about the Sisters being transported between planets by the Emperor's own hand. It has no less credibility than Daemonifuge. There is no Games Workshop fluff for the Sisters doing anything of the sort, so no fluff is no better than no fluff.

Jumping in on the `Sisters fight lots too' bandwagon, there are, if I remember correctly, three Preceptories and two Commanderies on Apocalypse. That translates to something like 3,400 Battle Sisters, not to mention any number of support personel, Sisters Hospitaller, Priests, Frateris Militia (potentially). I believe there are 20 Deathwatch. 0 Smurfs (they are busy telling the other Space Marines how they are the superior chapter). Which force does not care about a Waaagh again?

Slaaneshi Slave
19-09-2008, 09:30
Actually, up until the advent of firearms in the 15th century everyone was armed with a close combat weapon. Even today, common infantrymen are armed with a knife so my statement was a true statement. No one is talking aboult changing the Sisters' WS, but rather give them the ability to defend themselves in close combat.

Actually, I have a bayonette, but have never been issued a proper knife of any sort (well, I lie, I was issued a knife, fork and spoon in basic). But that is a bit off topic.

I don't want my Sisters to have combat weapons and grenades for free. They would take a price increase then. 11 point sisters are a steal. 14 point sisters are not.


crap post

Please, learn to play Sisters before you make more of a fool of yourself.

Sisters excel at 1-12", and not above. Drop pods would allow them to drop right amongst the enemy and destroy at will. 2 10 strong Battle sisters squads is almost guarunteed to kill a 10 strong Terminator squad in 1 round of shooting, so long as they both get off DG and are within flamer range. I personally believe drop pods would make an already strong codex overpowered, except in Annhilation missions.

march10k
19-09-2008, 10:59
The sisters should have an own Codex, with all the madness of the Ecclesiarchy, but without the bolt-on Inquisitor. From a fluff point of view, I still wonder why they were stuffed together with the Witch Hunter inquisitors.


This mirrors my position. The SoB are the muscle of the ecclesiarchy, not the inquisition. Their status vis a vis the inquisition is no different than that of the Cadian 8th or the Imperial Fists. So why would they be lumped into a codex:inquisition? It makes no sense. SoB and GK each have enough meat to fill their own codices, which I can't really say about DW...I say we need a C:GK, a C:WH, and a supplement that allows inquisitors and all the junk that comes with them to be used in ANY imperial army.

IAMNOTHERE
19-09-2008, 11:15
This again comes down to the right tool for the right job approach. Sisters arn't meant to be mixing it with Orks and Chaos Marines in CC, let alone 'Nids.

Necronartum
19-09-2008, 12:15
When we spoke to Jervis at GD he stated that there was no plans to join the Inquisition under a single codex. He said that they created each Ordos codex as an army in itself and they intend to keep it that way.

Take that as you will. Salt anyone?

Copella
19-09-2008, 12:42
While Sisters are a short range shooty army, I would like to see Sisters have at least 1 unit that would be good in CC. Something akin to Repentia that are actually useful for HtH, and not just good at HtTank armor. A couple easy and quick tweaks could actually make em good.

There are some other things I'd like to see for Sisters of Battle, and Grey Knights. What I don't want is for either of them to end up being just another chapter of Space Marine. Yes, some common place things could be similar, but somethings are better when they're army exclusive.

I think SoB, and GK both have lots of potential for their own Codex. Or perhaps to make less amount of books, go with Church with SoB in one, and Inquisition with GK in another (which was mentioned before a few times). The rumored combined =I= book has a good and bad feeling to it. It would certainly be massive book.

Kettu
19-09-2008, 14:09
Well, thinking about it, Drop Pods wouldn't make the sisters over powered. Otherwise the marines would be an unstoppable force of shear killyness.

However, I can see where people are coming from what with our game winning Exorcists, superior T3 front line troops and our lovely flamers by the promethium-tank full (Full range 8 & 1/2 inches).

So how about we apply some fluffy but stupid limiters on it.

E.g. no unit can be taken that can't fit inside a drop pod?
So no tanks.

Also, GW even gave example rules for a drop-pod sisters army way-back in the citadel journal no. 49 (http://www.gamehobby.net/citadel_journal/citadel_journal_49.html) of which the BoLS Ordo Herticus Strike Force (http://belloflostsouls.blogspot.com/2008/03/play-aid-ordo-hereticus-strike-force.html) Minidex is based on.

If all these complaints are simply because marine player don't want their toys being handed over, well I say payment is due for stealing all our Blessed Weapons, no wonder there is only enough for one per army. The cursed, faithless marines stole the bloody lot.

And also, an alternate idea for the sisters in combat.
Voluntary fall back.
In the assault phase, if you are not charging and didn't fire heavy weapons then roll a d6 and move that many inches away from the enemy.
It could be easily pictured that the Sisters, as well trained as they are, would know the importance of keeping the enemy at the business end of their bolters.

Alcibiades
19-09-2008, 18:43
And also, an alternate idea for the sisters in combat.
Voluntary fall back.
In the assault phase, if you are not charging and didn't fire heavy weapons then roll a d6 and move that many inches away from the enemy.
It could be easily pictured that the Sisters, as well trained as they are, would know the importance of keeping the enemy at the business end of their bolters.

Tau Combat Suits already have that option. Even though they are much more limited option (in number), it's a very powerful ability. I think it might prove overpowering en masse.

Tags
19-09-2008, 19:00
GW loves to change things as they go. Attaching the Sisters to the witch hunters just made sense I guess. Wouldn't the church take an interest in destroying rivals and rouge psykers anyway? Besides I always took it as the With hunters simply called on the sisters when they needed a strong arm.

As for the GK... keeping them attached to the demon hunters is the best option. However the GK seem very restricted in who they can fight. Granted they can take on anyone, however their special weapons are geared to Demons, and even though a rival can take demons in their army that option seems to be rarely used. GK's need options that allow them to take on foes that are not using actual demons.

As for how the WH or DH get to a planets surface... Well, we know the DH teleport, and the DH do have Thunder hawks. As for the sisters... well teleportation seems out of place for them. Maybe a variation on the drop pod would be an option. Something more in-line with the WH style.

IAMNOTHERE
19-09-2008, 20:06
How about they are transported to the surface using conventional vehicles that every one else uses?

the sisters arn't a dedicated assault force, they are used to destroy the enemies of the church, not to halt large scale interventions.

Think of them more as a Priests private army rather than a main stream fighting force. By that I mean what ever the powerful inquisitor can requisition for them goes, this isn't going to include planetry drop equipment.

Kettu
19-09-2008, 20:17
Tau Combat Suits already have that option. Even though they are much more limited option (in number), it's a very powerful ability. I think it might prove overpowering en masse.

Hence why I said no heavy weapons, d6 inches and away from the enemy.

With storm bolters being the longest ranged weapon they can carry that isn't heavy then distance isn't much of a problem. Itís to simply allow the girls an extra turn of shooting before they face the inevitable defeat in CC.


How about they are transported to the surface using conventional vehicles that every one else uses?

the sisters arn't a dedicated assault force, they are used to destroy the enemies of the church, not to halt large scale interventions.

Think of them more as a Priests private army rather than a main stream fighting force. By that I mean what ever the powerful inquisitor can requisition for them goes, this isn't going to include planetry drop equipment.

One, drop pods does not equal dedicated CC units.
Two, GW has already said the sisters have drop pods. Even if only once and there has been no official rules for them, till GW says otherwise it is still cannon.
Three, The Sisterhood does fight in large scale engagements all the time. They are not a group of church related S.W.A.T; they are the entire fighting arm of the church.
Four, They are not part of the Inquisition and so the =][= does not arm them.
Five, they are not some small private army, they are one of the most numerous fighting forces in the entire Imperium. Only the PDF and Imperial Guard have more soldiers.

grownupgamer
19-09-2008, 20:23
This again comes down to the right tool for the right job approach. Sisters arn't meant to be mixing it with Orks and Chaos Marines in CC, let alone 'Nids.

Well said.

The only change I would make to Sisters is to give them options for more plasma weapons. Plasma pistols are already available and they fit with the "burn the heretic" theme of the army. I know you can take plasma guns with ISTs and plasma cannons with gun servitors, but it would make an attractive option for SoB units. Admittedly, this may be overpowered, but this thread is about wishful thinking anyway, right?

Re: Grey Knights, I don't have the codex in front of me, but my recollection is GK Dreadnoughts don't have the "venerable" option. This would make GK dreadnoughts comparable to other SM dreadnoughts.

Lord Inquisitor
19-09-2008, 21:51
Two, GW has already said the sisters have drop pods. Even if only once and there has been no official rules for them, till GW says otherwise it is still cannon.
The thing about sisters is that they have no spaceships. The ecclesiarchy is forbidden warships. Now, there are cases where this is contradicted (Daemonifuge had exactly that, and it had drop pods too), but most sources agree that the Ecclesiarchy are forbidden by the decree passive from maintaining warships. Ergo if sisters have Drop Pods they belong to someone else. The Ordo Hereticus certainly could have Strike Cruisers with pods.

As far as the army is concerned, I wouldn't like to see sisters with pods. Just for the same reason they don't get orbital bombardments (the Inquisitors do!) they shouldn't have access to pods because in background terms they don't have spacecraft to fire them.

Temprus
19-09-2008, 23:29
There is a minimum of a few hundred sisters on any world with a prominent Ecclessiarchy presence (read: most worlds) with an upward of several thousand of the Emperor's Daughters on shrine worlds.

They are the third most common fighting force in the Imperium. (PDF and IG being the first and second respectively)
You need to re-read your SoB codexes again. At their peak, the total of all SoBs numbered a lot less than the all of the Space Marines Chapters added together. There are 2 to 6 Major Covenants depending when the fluff was written, the most generous codex said each of those Covenants had up to 25,000ish at their peak many millennium ago and "now" have only a few thousand each. There are only a few Minor Covenants with no more than a few hundred sisters each.

The_Patriot
20-09-2008, 03:58
How about they are transported to the surface using conventional vehicles that every one else uses?

the sisters arn't a dedicated assault force, they are used to destroy the enemies of the church, not to halt large scale interventions.

Think of them more as a Priests private army rather than a main stream fighting force. By that I mean what ever the powerful inquisitor can requisition for them goes, this isn't going to include planetry drop equipment.

A drop pod, Arvus Lighter, and Valkyrie are standard options for Sisters to use.

If they aren't a dedicated assault force then why are they tasked with protecting the Imperium's holy routes, shrines, and churches? Why do they lead all of the Ecclessiarchy crusades that encompass defending planets to actual invasion?

Except that the Church has far more wealth then Marines. The only group that actually has more wealth would be the AdMech and Munitorum. ;) The Church has far more power then Marines, but are counter balanced by the fact they are dependent upon the Imperial Navy for any and all transport.

A Cardinal or a Bishop have equal power to an Inquisitor when it comes to church crusades. A Prioriss of the Convent Sanctorum or the Convent Prioris wields as much power as Bishops. The only one that holds more power is the Abbess and is equal to the Ecclesiarch himself. Hardly, the small force you portray them to be.


Well said.

The only change I would make to Sisters is to give them options for more plasma weapons. Plasma pistols are already available and they fit with the "burn the heretic" theme of the army. I know you can take plasma guns with ISTs and plasma cannons with gun servitors, but it would make an attractive option for SoB units. Admittedly, this may be overpowered, but this thread is about wishful thinking anyway, right?

Re: Grey Knights, I don't have the codex in front of me, but my recollection is GK Dreadnoughts don't have the "venerable" option. This would make GK dreadnoughts comparable to other SM dreadnoughts.

I can see both options since in Faith and Fire Sister Superior Miriya uses a plasma pistol. I could also see giving venerable status to GK dreads since they are as old as some of the oldest regular Marine dreads.


The thing about sisters is that they have no spaceships. The ecclesiarchy is forbidden warships. Now, there are cases where this is contradicted (Daemonifuge had exactly that, and it had drop pods too), but most sources agree that the Ecclesiarchy are forbidden by the decree passive from maintaining warships. Ergo if sisters have Drop Pods they belong to someone else. The Ordo Hereticus certainly could have Strike Cruisers with pods.

As far as the army is concerned, I wouldn't like to see sisters with pods. Just for the same reason they don't get orbital bombardments (the Inquisitors do!) they shouldn't have access to pods because in background terms they don't have spacecraft to fire them.

The Church isn't forbidden from having starships. They are prohibited from using warships which are a distinct subclass of starship. No one knows what the Ecclessiarchy Battleship in Daemonifuge was armed with. It could carry nothing but defensive weapons, which is perfectly legal under the Decree Passive. However, warships would be provided by the Imperial Navy as part of the agreement to the passage of the Decree Passive. This is why in Codex: Sisters of Battle 2nd Edition under Crusades states the Imperial Navy provides all air and space support for Church combat operations.

Given what the text of Codex: Sisters of Battle 2nd Edition says I would say that Sisters could use orbital bombardments provided if they had a high ranking member of the clergy like a Cardinal as an HQ choice. ;)


You need to re-read your SoB codexes again. At their peak, the total of all SoBs numbered a lot less than the all of the Space Marines Chapters added together. There are 2 to 6 Major Covenants depending when the fluff was written, the most generous codex said each of those Covenants had up to 25,000ish at their peak many millennium ago and "now" have only a few thousand each. There are only a few Minor Covenants with no more than a few hundred sisters each.

Under the last Codex the numbers from the second edition Codex were overwritten. As it stands now there are roughly 750 million to 1 billion Sisters in service. Shrines would have no more then a couple of squads and the larger more important worlds would have several Orders on them ranging from 1,000 to 5,000 Sisters using a Priory as the largest force. No Order has all of their troops on one world as their duties across the space routes throughout the Imperium need protecting and would preclude them from posting all troops on a single world. The only exception would be a minor Order that a player has created and even then it's not official. Also, I'm including the non-militant Sisters in this figure.

The final thing is that there has always been two Convents after The Reformation. Those are Convent Prioris and Convent Sanctorum which was due to the Decree Passive.

Ravening Wh0re
20-09-2008, 04:13
One, drop pods does not equal dedicated CC units.
Two, GW has already said the sisters have drop pods. Even if only once and there has been no official rules for them, till GW says otherwise it is still cannon.
Three, The Sisterhood does fight in large scale engagements all the time. They are not a group of church related S.W.A.T; they are the entire fighting arm of the church.
Four, They are not part of the Inquisition and so the =][= does not arm them.
Five, they are not some small private army, they are one of the most numerous fighting forces in the entire Imperium. Only the PDF and Imperial Guard have more soldiers.

No, the Sisters are not part of the inquisition. But, they are the chamber militant for the Ordo Hereticus,and are thus bound to fight for any Witch Hunter.
I don't really like the ideas of drop pods for Sisters. I think anything to bring them away from just less tough marines would be a better thing. Using the same equipment is one thing but to utilise the same tactics would just weaken them as a an army.
I do hope they don't have access to drop pods, whirlwinds, vindicators, dreadnoughts, bikes and all this nonsense. The rhino and bolter is all they need :)

Temprus
20-09-2008, 07:17
Under the last Codex the numbers from the second edition Codex were overwritten. As it stands now there are roughly 750 million to 1 billion Sisters in service. Shrines would have no more then a couple of squads and the larger more important worlds would have several Orders on them ranging from 1,000 to 5,000 Sisters using a Priory as the largest force. No Order has all of their troops on one world as their duties across the space routes throughout the Imperium need protecting and would preclude them from posting all troops on a single world. The only exception would be a minor Order that a player has created and even then it's not official. Also, I'm including the non-militant Sisters in this figure.

The final thing is that there has always been two Convents after The Reformation. Those are Convent Prioris and Convent Sanctorum which was due to the Decree Passive.
My bad, I said Covenant, I meant Order. The Lesser Order paragraph on page 6 of WH implies that the 6 Major Orders only have "many thousands" of Sisters so it is unlikely that each has spawned hundreds of Lesser Orders of up to a thousand Sisters each. So it is more likely tens to hundreds of thousands of Sisters, not millions or a billion.

You might want to look in the current rulebook though since it trumps WH and says that there are only 3 major orders with "strength numbering several thousand" and "many lesser sisterhoods comprised of around a hundred or so Battle Sisters". That sounds like tens of thousands of Sisters, if that.

EDIT: Ravening, based on the description of the Ordo Mallus as "the militant arm of the inquisition" and the lack of the term Witch Hunter/Ordo Hereticus in the SoB description (or any mention except under a model's picture), I suspect that GK and SoBs might not be Inquisitional Chamber Militants in 5th edition (well, as of whenever they get their codex(es)).

The_Patriot
20-09-2008, 08:49
My bad, I said Covenant, I meant Order. The Lesser Order paragraph on page 6 of WH implies that the 6 Major Orders only have "many thousands" of Sisters so it is unlikely that each has spawned hundreds of Lesser Orders of up to a thousand Sisters each. So it is more likely tens to hundreds of thousands of Sisters, not millions or a billion.

You might want to look in the current rulebook though since it trumps WH and says that there are only 3 major orders with "strength numbering several thousand" and "many lesser sisterhoods comprised of around a hundred or so Battle Sisters". That sounds like tens of thousands of Sisters, if that.

EDIT: Ravening, based on the description of the Ordo Mallus as "the militant arm of the inquisition" and the lack of the term Witch Hunter/Ordo Hereticus in the SoB description (or any mention except under a model's picture), I suspect that GK and SoBs might not be Inquisitional Chamber Militants in 5th edition (well, as of whenever they get their codex(es)).

I then cite BL/GW's stance on fluff which is that it may or not be true depending upon the point of view told. The writing in the 5th edition rule book is wrong while the writing in Codex: Witch Hunters is correct especially since the rule book states that anything in a codex trumps the rule book. They didn't advance the timeline in 5th edition which occurs in the same year as Codex: Witch Hunters which is 999.M41, so 15 major orders didn't just go poof. That is 3 militant and 12 non-militant orders. Thus, the rule book is wrong while Codex: WH is correct. My numbers still stand based upon the correct information presented in the Codex.

Kettu
20-09-2008, 09:27
@Temprus;

Why not six orders spawning hundreds? I mean, it wasn't even nine chapters that spawned a million marines and we all know the difficulty in obtaining more marines.

Sisters recruit straight from the Imperium wide orphanage, taking roughly a four to five ratio of baby girls.

There is roughly a two to one ratio of girls recruited into the orders militant then the non-com orders.

So, really, millions to billions isn't very hard to imagine.

And by the way, two paragraphs in a book that seems determined to ignore the girls does not take precedence over their codex.

the1stpip
20-09-2008, 11:17
It would make more sense to have a separate Inq codex, amd have it combinable with Sisters, GK and DW.

Of course, that would mean a lot of work on Death Watch, but that can't be a bad thing.

march10k
20-09-2008, 11:37
There are only a few Minor orders with no more than a few hundred sisters each.

Says who? The galaxy is pretty big. I can imagine room for hundreds of micro-orders, each dedicated to the protection of a single shrine world...or thousands, each in the service of some local ecclesiarchal big-wig. In either case, we're talking a few hundred sisters, max, for each micro-order.


No, the Sisters are not part of the inquisition. But, they are the chamber militant for the Ordo Hereticus,and are thus bound to fight for any Witch Hunter.


Isn't any imperial citizen "bound to fight for any witch hunter"??? Any book stating that they're part of the ordo hereticus rather than a part of the ecclesiarchy misspoke. They are part of the church, not part of the inquisition.


before they face the inevitable defeat in CC.


You don't know my sisters ;)

Ravening Wh0re
20-09-2008, 14:23
Isn't any imperial citizen "bound to fight for any witch hunter"??? Any book stating that they're part of the ordo hereticus rather than a part of the ecclesiarchy misspoke. They are part of the church, not part of the inquisition.


I was under the impression that Sisters were the first port of call if any fighting was to be done. You have a ready armed, well trained dedicated fighting force with unshakeable faith.
Of course they could just as easily throw some lasguns at some hivers to fight but it just isn't the same.
The zealous Battle Nuns are just made to fight mutants and psykers

(ps, I'm aware they are part of the Church. It's just very clear they have strong ties to the OH too)

Temprus
20-09-2008, 18:12
I then cite BL/GW's stance on fluff which is that it may or not be true depending upon the point of view told. The writing in the 5th edition rule book is wrong while the writing in Codex: Witch Hunters is correct especially since the rule book states that anything in a codex trumps the rule book. They didn't advance the timeline in 5th edition which occurs in the same year as Codex: Witch Hunters which is 999.M41, so 15 major orders didn't just go poof. That is 3 militant and 12 non-militant orders. Thus, the rule book is wrong while Codex: WH is correct. My numbers still stand based upon the correct information presented in the Codex.

WH says there are 6 major orders not 18 (the other orders are lesser ones, sorry) and that means 3 went poof according to the 5th rulebook. According to the 5th rulebook, only rules in a codex take precedence it says nothing about fluff (page 62, last sentence) and GW's "standard policy" is that new fluff always trumps older fluff. ;)

Kettu, the original 9 Legions had tens of thousands of Marines each when broken up 10k years before the current time line. Sisters started with thousands many thousands of years later. No SoB fluff ever grants them anywhere the numbers TP is saying they have.

march10k, both WH and the 5th rulebook say "many" when referring to the number of lesser orders. It is a major stretch to take many and make it into hundreds when there are only 3 (or 6) major orders. ;) If we go with hundreds of lesser orders though, it still means we have tens to hundreds of thousands of Sisters since both say that the major orders only have many/several thousand each with lesser orders having a lot less. :D This is why I quoted from both WH and 5th in my previous post, so people could see the actual number both use.

matt_17
20-09-2008, 23:07
The problems I had when I played GKs was the lack of variety, especially the lack of infantry equipped anti-tank weaponry, of any form - I don't need lascannons... but can I have a meltagun please, or at least some fluffily renamed anti daemon version.

The fact that they were a rapid response themed army who moved at a snails pace on the ground annoyed me. The run rule pretty much sorted out that gripe though.

Also, I reckon that the title of Justicar is simply too awesome to be given to a squad sergeant. I mean, going from Justicar to Terminator, or even Brother-Captain, sounds like a demotion to me. I like to see the Grey Knight squad leader title being changed to Brother-Sergeant or something similar. I think that Justicars should get some special treatment.

They should be an HQ choice separate from the Grand Master. I was thinking something along the lines of a librarian/chaplain combination or support based HQ (as opposed to the GM whose job is to go out a thrash the greater daemon of whoever stands in their way.) The Justicar should have things like granting rerolls to squads they are close/joined to or decreased shrouding distance. Things that aren't too game breaking, but are good enough to make you think before choosing the beast that is the GM or the tactical advantage offered by the Justicar.

Also, with the daemons now having eternal warrior, force weapons are no longer the best weapon for daemon slaying. The GM (and Justicar, at least the ones described above anyway) should deal extra wounds, similar to tyranid flesh-hooks.

Finally, GKs wit Jump Packs for 30 points would be great.

The_Patriot
20-09-2008, 23:42
WH says there are 6 major orders not 18 (the other orders are lesser ones, sorry) and that means 3 went poof according to the 5th rulebook. According to the 5th rulebook, only rules in a codex take precedence it says nothing about fluff (page 62, last sentence) and GW's "standard policy" is that new fluff always trumps older fluff. ;)

Kettu, the original 9 Legions had tens of thousands of Marines each when broken up 10k years before the current time line. Sisters started with thousands many thousands of years later. No SoB fluff ever grants them anywhere the numbers TP is saying they have.

march10k, both WH and the 5th rulebook say "many" when referring to the number of lesser orders. It is a major stretch to take many and make it into hundreds when there are only 3 (or 6) major orders. ;) If we go with hundreds of lesser orders though, it still means we have tens to hundreds of thousands of Sisters since both say that the major orders only have many/several thousand each with lesser orders having a lot less. :D This is why I quoted from both WH and 5th in my previous post, so people could see the actual number both use.

I do believe that you are confusing militant and non-militant orders with being a major or minority order. The Orders I cited are all major orders. Unnamed Orders are the minor Orders and they are player created Orders. My personal Order is a minor Order as per Codex: WH since it's not a named Order. Now here's the list as per Codex: WH of the major Orders of the Adepta Sororitas split by Convent. (Color Coded for ease of reference)

Convent Sanctorum (Ophelia VII) Convent Prioris (Terra)

Orders Militant

Order of the Bloody Rose Order of the Sacred Rose
Order of Our Martyred Lady Order of the Ebon Chalice
Order of the Valorous Heart Order of the Argent Shroud

Orders Hospitaller

Order of the Eternal Candle Order of the Cleansing Water
Order of Serenity Order of the Torch

Orders Famulous

Order of the Key Order of the Holy Seal
Order of the Gate Order of the Sacred Coin

Orders Dialogous

Order of the Holy Word Order of the Sacred Oath
Order of the Quill Order of the Lexicon

So where did all these major Orders go to according to 5th Edition rulebook in 999.M41 when Codex: WH, also 999M41, states they are still around? They didn't simply go poof, but rather the information in the rulebook is wrong.

Now, as far as, GW's policy regarding the fluff this is what the policy is.


The BL editors work with the GW studios to keep the fiction the way that it should (very hard might I add! - RK), though due to the sheer volume of detail involved there can be the odd discrepancy here and there. If you want to consider anything "canonical" then both BL fiction - be it novel, graphic novel, art or background book - and GW fiction - be it White Dwarf, Codex, Army book or rulebook - are such.

Keep in mind Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 are worlds where half truths, lies, propaganda, politics, legends and myths exist. The absolute truth which is implied when you talk about "canonical background" will never be known because of this. Everything we know about these worlds is from the viewpoints of people in them which are as a result incomplete and even sometimes incorrect. The truth is mutable, debatable and lost as the victors write the history ...

This contradicts your statement while backs my statement up. The 5th Edition rulebook is wrong and Codex: WH is correct regarding the size of the Adepta Sororitas.

Temprus
21-09-2008, 05:13
WH says that Sisters have "a number of specialist non-militant arms", that include Hospitaller, Famulous, and Dialogous. They are given much lesser status on the charts of both codexes than the Militant Orders of each Covenant, so their numbers are most likely smaller than the militant ones. Even if we say they are all "major" and count each of the sub-orders as having full numbers of Sisters, how do 18 "major" orders somehow give you millions of Sisters when the 6 militant ones only have "many thousands" each? Nowhere does WH give any hint to the numbers you keep claiming.

You can also deny that the 5th Ed rulebook replaces the WH fluff all you want, GW does not care as it seems to have taken a new direction again with the Sisters. Whether they will stick with it whenever we get a new codex for them is the real question. ;)

The_Patriot
21-09-2008, 05:58
WH says that Sisters have "a number of specialist non-militant arms", that include Hospitaller, Famulous, and Dialogous. They are given much lesser status on the charts of both codexes than the Militant Orders of each Covenant, so their numbers are most likely smaller than the militant ones. Even if we say they are all "major" and count each of the sub-orders as having full numbers of Sisters, how do 18 "major" orders somehow give you millions of Sisters when the 6 militant ones only have "many thousands" each? Nowhere does WH give any hint to the numbers you keep claiming.

You can also deny that the 5th Ed rulebook replaces the WH fluff all you want, GW does not care as it seems to have taken a new direction again with the Sisters. Whether they will stick with it whenever we get a new codex for them is the real question. ;)

Actually, the non-militant Orders are not lesser in status in comparison to the militant Orders. WH states the Orders of both Militant and Non-Militant as well as giving a rough estimate of their numbers by actually not stating any number at all. In fact, there are more non-militant Sisters then there are militant due to the fact of what their job entails. Hospitallers work in all warzones providing medical services to the IG, provide relief in the hospitals of all the worlds in the Imperium, and help out weary travelers on the shrine routes. Dialogus work with the Administorum and other Imperial Departments in providing translation services as well as working in grand crusades as intelligence gathers and providing inter-service support by working a liasons between all branches of the Imperium. Famolus work with the families of diplomats and Imperial nobility and provide for their basic housekeeping functions as well as providing the Sisters an in-depth inner workings knowledge of the Imperium's leaders.

How I acheived my numbers is based upon logic and the following mathematical formula. There are 1 million worlds in the Imperium with 60% being agri-worlds, 25% being hive worlds, and 15% being Ecclessiarchy stronghold worlds which is based upon GW's own numbers. The 60% of the worlds would receive usually between a mission and commandary in size which translates for all of the Orders 18,000,000-120,000,000 Sisters. For hive worlds there would be commandary up to preceptory sized units of Sisters which translates for all of the Orders 50,000,000-250,000,000 Sisters. For the Ecclessiarchy worlds there would be preceptory sized units of Sisters which translates into 150,000,000 Sisters. The grand total for this very rough estimation is between 218,000,000-520,000,000 Sisters. Keep in mind this is just a very rough draft of my original numbers, but there they are. Sisters are more numerous then Marines based upon the actual numbers presented by GW concerning the Imperium and the various Adepta Sororitas commands. The 'many thousands' of Sisters is contradicted by GW itself regarding the size of the Imperium and the commands used by the Sisters.

thechosenone
21-09-2008, 08:05
My only question is patriot, why are you assuming 60% of the worlds have a mission or larger force of sororitas? I'm not really arguing or nitpicking, your numbers make sense assuming your stated 60% is accurate. I'd believe there are more sisters then marines sure but your number seems really really big. Its just that from any material i've read (Black Library, take it or leave it) even large argiworlds like in warriors of ultramar didn't have but a hospitalar's mission. Pavonis didn't have any noticeable sisters stationed there. The eye of terror campaign didn't mention a particularly insane number of sisters coming to fight. In dark Apostle there was a very large city and a populated planet to boot that had no sister presence and in Lord of the Night we see a hive city with no sister presence.

Again, i'm not saying your wrong. I could be providing exceptions to the rule who knows. Maybe we are disregarding black library entirely. Don't know. However my belief is every world will have church presence in some fashion, maybe some crusaders, some priests ect but i don't think over half the populated worlds in the Imperium sport a fighting force of the church.

march10k
21-09-2008, 08:35
I was under the impression that Sisters were the first port of call if any fighting was to be done. You have a ready armed, well trained dedicated fighting force with unshakeable faith.
Of course they could just as easily throw some lasguns at some hivers to fight but it just isn't the same.
The zealous Battle Nuns are just made to fight mutants and psykers

(ps, I'm aware they are part of the Church. It's just very clear they have strong ties to the OH too)


What I'm saying is that their status vis a vis the inquisition, in all fluff other than the current C:WH, is no different than that of the imperial guard and the space marines. They're available when an inquisitor, of any ordo, needs muscle. If they get called more often than some others, perhaps it is because they're easier to put hands on than the "always off fighting somewhere else" space marines and more capable than IG? There's also an element where a witch hunt sounds more exciting than guarding a pilgrimage route, eh? I think the newly discovered "strong ties" to OH were fabricated as an excuse to squeeze OH into someone's codex.

I think we're mostly in agreement, though. I agree that, of the three ordos, hereticus is the most closely aligned with the flavor of the sisters, and you've conceded that they're technically the church's muscle, not the inquisition's. What galls me is that the codex was "codex: a branch of the inquisition," even though inquisitorial garbage only makes up 1/5 of the army list entries. Bring it back to "codex: sisters of battle," even if you must keep the witch hunters junk in it.

As for the number of sisters...I'd say that the number of sisters is at least in the tens of millions...but the number of fighting sisters is, at best, in the hundreds of thousands. In a world as miserable as the imperium of man, the attraction of a clean, orderly, meaningful life with much higher social status than 98% of the imperium enjoys must be quite strong, so there should be no shortage of candidates for the sisterhood. Siphoning off females from the population also generates an artificial imbalance between men and women in the working class, effectively turning a higher percentage of military aged males into drones. Anyway, if you figure just ten females per world in one of the non-militant orders, that's tens, if not hundreds of millions of sisters. But, when people playing a war game ask "how many sisters?" I assume they only want to know how many in the orders militant, so I say "a hundred thousand or so."

Elric of Grans
21-09-2008, 10:14
I agree completely with march10k here, on all points. There have never been any really useful numbers on how many Sisters there are out there, likely because there are no strict controls on them (unlike Space Marines). There is no doubt, however, that they could never be half as numerous as Imperial Guard. At the end of the day, the discussion is pretty meaningless. There are (were) six major orders militant, which probably number a few thousand each. There are then somewhere between `many' and `lots' of minor orders militant, which could number anywhere between tens and hundreds each. These minor orders were clearly provided to give the players a chance to be creative and make `The Order of the Ample Bosom' or whatnot. You could argue that the number of minor orders is approximately equal to the number of Sisters players... so not as many as we may like to think. Either way, the current fluff does not suggest they are very numerous, but the logical extension of parts of that fluff would suggest they could be hundreds of thousands.

As for Sisters being a part of the Inquisition, this has really bugged me for a while. They are very clearly the military wing of the Ecclesiarchy --- the fluff states this constantly --- yet just in a couple of paragraphs they have these tight, secret ties with the Inquisition. Riiight, they did not half ham-fist that one! Sisters would be just as happy killing Psykers as they would Ogrin, Space Wolves, Commies (Tau) or Chaos. Anything that does not fit their fascist god's religious tenants. Boxing them in as `Witch Hunters' is as boring as it is backward. No Inquisition for me, thanks; I would rather my Sisters kill some Orks than run around looking for the one person in the country who takes a Psyker in his Guard army.

For what it is worth, could people please stop pretending Black Library publications are official fluff. Putting aside the fact that Guardsmen are the descendants of Superman and Wonder Woman, these books are frequently contradictory to Games Workshop fluff. At their best they are good stories in the same setting of the game, but most of the time they are just second-rate literature milking the fans with whatever the wannabe author wants. If I began publishing stories through Black Library about Sisters hiding flamers up their backsides and all being ninth dan black belts (the canoness it tenth dan, obviously) it would not suddenly make it so. That bit about them making Space Marines cry is completely true though! Even power armour does not help when a woman with a power fist grabs you by the *cough*.

Wintermute
21-09-2008, 10:17
This thread was started with the intention of discussing what players would wish to see if GW produces another Codex featuring the Sisters of Battle and the Grey Knights, it was not intended to discuss if he fluff in the new 5th Ed Rule Book supplants the fluff in the Witch Hunter Codex.

Keep this thread on topic or I will close it and take action any or all who ignore this warning.

Wintermute

Copella
21-09-2008, 14:27
I would love to see Sisters of Battle get their own codex again. (looking at my old codex: SoB collecting dust on the shelf). Some more fluff in the book would be nice, but so would some more representation across the board. Sisters could certainly benefit from the spotlight every now and again.
I ordered a copy of "Faith and Fire" which is a novel staring Sisters of Battle. So we have 1 novel, and 1 comic/graphic novel (not sure how big it is). Besides the random fanfic, which is far and few, there just isn't a lot of things written about the adventures of the Sisters. Well, not compared to SM, IG, Chaos, and Eldar. Maybe it will change.

Actual units in a new codex, hmm. Well, I'd love to see Repentias brought up a few notches. Right now your paying 20 points per model. An eviscerator is usually 25pts for pretty much anyone that can take em. So your paying for a weapon on the repentia. Whats the point if the one carrying the weapon is not going to get to use it. This isn't even a case of being a glass cannon. Even when they do get into HtH combat, they swing last and still have poor saves. Banshees are 4 points cheaper, can take transports, and will always attack first on the charge (and prolly following rounds thanks to amazing Ini). So yes, a change to Repentia would be one of the most anticipated changes.

Seeing how marines got smart and grabbed apothecaries, why couldn't Sisters start using Sister Hospitalers as Celestian unit upgrades on the table top as well. Heck, Sisters have been using them forever fluff wise (whole branch of em even).

For tanks/vehicles. Repressor in the core book would be awesome. Something brand new would be nice as well. Even if it isn't super flashy or anything. A new tank for either transport, firepower, or both would be a great addition.

Special characters, if we get more than a reprint of the current 2 that would be cool. Bring back Saint Praxedes! If they follow the pattern of the current special characters from SM, Eldar, Orks, and CSM books, than it should be interesting to see.

The_Patriot
21-09-2008, 21:29
@Copella: I would like to see the options presented in Chapter Approved 2001 being used where you can add various upgrades to Celestians like adding a member of Order Hospitaller, Dialogus, and Famolus to the squad to gain various advantages. Adding a Hospitaller would give the unit the ability to ignore the first wound. Adding a Dialogus would grant a +1 to Faith Points. Adding a Famolus would grant an ally from either IG or SM as 1 platoon (IG)/squad(SM). Of course, there could only be a maximum of 2 since this would only apply to HQ Celestians and not the Elite Celestians.

I would like to also see Cardinals, Confessors, and Preachers return with them being HQ slots. A Confessor could have a 2-10 Battle Sister strong retinue, a Cardinal would have a 2-10 Celestian strong retinue, and a Preacher would gain a 4-20 Frateris Militia strong retinue. The only one that could gain the advantages of the other Orders would be the Celestian retinue of the Cardinal. Of course, these Ecclesiarchy members wouldn't grant Faith Points like now, but would fulfill the requirements for Arco-Flagallents and Penitent Engines. However, one change I'd like is that when a unit of Arcos, Repentia, or Penitent Engines die they confer to friendly units within 12" radius either Holy Hatred (in the case of Celestians it would drop the number to 2+ to hit) or Fearless for the rest of the turn or Holy Rage which would confer a 6" move to the closest enemy unit in the Sisters player's movement phase. Preachers and Confessors would unlock Death Cultists as a choice since they're mission is to inspire the masses to fight for the Emperor while the Cardinal is a more traditional so they couldn't unlock that unit.

I'd add in the Hellhound as a Transport/Heavy Support choice since it was developed from the Immolater STC and the agreement between the AdMech and Ecclesiarchy stated that new designs based off of the technology would have to be shared with the Church. I could see a Leman Russ flamer only variant as a Heavy Support choice as well. One final Heavy Support change would be that orbital bombardments could be taken if the player uses a Cardinal as a HQ choice.

Another thing I'd like to see is Frateris Militia versions for Fast Attack, Troops, and Elites. For fast attack there could be a unit whose only job is to suicide bomb enemy troops. Hellebore wrote up some excellent rules for them as part of his Apoc Sister's troop ship datasheet. They would run to the nearest enemy unit and blow up, so they can be given fleet of foot. They wouldn't be armed with any weapons other then the bombs which would automatically detonate at the beginning of the assault phase:D Another Fast Attack choice would be zealots in buggies that would be similar to Speed Freaks. :D

For Basic Troops I can see zealots and Frateris Militia mobs of 4-20 troops with a heavy/special weapon every 10 members. They would be armed with conventional farm implements and las pistols for zealots, but lasguns for Frateris Militia.

For Elites, I could see a Frateris Militia and zealot unit similar to the Celestians. They would all fulfill the same role, but would give a different look to the army.

For Special Characters, I can see the bringing back of all the old Codex: Sisters of Battle 2nd Edition ones plus rules for creating your own special character in order to truly customize your army.

Elric of Grans
21-09-2008, 21:58
Adding a Hospitaller would give the unit the ability to ignore the first wound.

I would like to see the Hospitaller in the Celestians too, though under fifth edition she would grant Feels No Pain (like Apothecaries and Painboyz) to the squad. However, I would rather see a jump pack option on the Celestians so they can stick with the Canoness. I cannot see it being fluffy for a Dialogus or, even more ridiculously, a Famulus being in battle.


I would like to also see Cardinals, Confessors, and Preachers return with them being HQ slots.

I think you mean Missionary rather than Cardinal, but agreed again. Missionaries and Confessors could be characterful HQ options, whereas I would see the Preacher as being more a Sergent that already comes with a group of Frateris Militia. Do not forget, fifth edition is abandoning retinues, so there will be none of them in our next codex.


I'd add in the Hellhound as a Transport/Heavy Support choice since it was developed from the Immolater STC and the agreement between the AdMech and Ecclesiarchy stated that new designs based off of the technology would have to be shared with the Church. I could see a Leman Russ flamer only variant as a Heavy Support choice as well. One final Heavy Support change would be that orbital bombardments could be taken if the player uses a Cardinal or a Bishop as a HQ choice.

Reread the fluff; we will never get the Hellhound. It has no transport capacity either, and is Fast Attack. It would also not make sense for us to gain a Leman Russ. No (real) tanks is a part of our brief, and I would like to see it stay that way. Guard and Beakies can keep their Leman Russ and Land Raider, while we can just take Rhino/Chimera variants. I also disagree with Orbital Bombardment, as by the fluff only Inquisitors and Space Marine high-ups can request such things.


Another thing I'd like to see is Frateris Militia versions for Fast Attack, Troops, and Elites.

Maybe not Frateris Militia specifically, but some sort of a fanatic zealot Fast Attack option would be great. Frateris Militia had the option for horses before, which would be the easy cop-out, but I would like to see something new. `Elite' Frateris Militia is an oxymoron. Arco-Flagellants are already the Elite non-Sister Ecclesiarchy unit, so simply giving them a slight boost would be enough. At least they need less work than Repentia ;)

The_Patriot
21-09-2008, 22:16
@Elric: Celestians should never be given jump packs since only Seraphim are issued them. As a compromise, what about Seraphims as an option? I can see a perfectly fluffy reason why Dialogus and Famolus would be along in a Celestian unit. Dialogus are code breakers and translaters while Famolus are liasons. Hence the reason why I stated their abilities as +1 Faith Point or 1 platoon of IG/1 squad of SM as an ally.

I meant Cardinals since one of them would have to lead a full crusade. However, merging this with a prior idea of using HQ choices to select the type of forces available I've thought about where a Cardinal would allow only Frateris Militia and Adepta Sororitas units to be taken. Confessors would have Frateris Militia and strict limits on Adepta Sororitas. Preachers would be have limited Frateris Militia and unlimited Zealots.

The Hellhound would be a special variant that would allow troop transport, but could also forsake the transport option for heavier weapons. It would be an entirely new design based on the Chimera chasis. The same would be true for a Leman Russ. In both cases, they would be appropriately garished in church symbols. I would suggest you reread the fluff yourself since the Imperial Navy provides air and space support for Church Crusades and Cardinals lead the crusade. It makes perfect sense for the Cardinal to be the only one to call down an orbital bombardment.

I wouldn't say it's an oxymoron since an Elite Frateris Militia unit could be a veteran squad that is more ordered militarily. They would be the veterans of a several campaigns. I rethought the fast attack option and went with Zealots in Buggies. :D

starlight
22-09-2008, 00:33
Adding a Hospitaller would give the unit the ability to ignore the first wound.

FNP as mentioned. I'm for getting the flavour back.


a Dialogus would grant a +1 to Faith Points.

0-1, attached to senior HQ only


a Famolus would grant an ally from either IG or SM as 1 platoon (IG)/squad(SM).

Ditto.


...there could only be a maximum of 2 since this would only apply to HQ Celestians and not the Elite Celestians.




A Confessor could have a 2-10 Battle Sister strong retinue,

5-10 Sisters


a Cardinal would have a 2-10 Celestian strong retinue,

5-10 Sisters, upgradable to Celestians


a Preacher would gain a 4-20 Frateris Militia strong retinue.

No Ret.


the only one that could gain the advantages of the other Orders would be the Celestian retinue of the Cardinal.

Yes, but the 0-1 would still apply.


Of course, these Ecclesiarchy members wouldn't grant Faith Points like now, but would fulfill the requirements for Arco-Flagallents and Penitent Engines.

Agreed.


However, one change I'd like is that when a unit of Arcos, Repentia, or Penitent Engines die they confer to friendly units within 12" radius either Holy Hatred (in the case of Celestians it would drop the number to 2+ to hit) or Fearless for the rest of the turn or Holy Rage which would confer a 6" move to the closest enemy unit in the Sisters player's movement phase.

Remainder of the turn only could work.


Preachers and Confessors would unlock Death Cultists as a choice since they're mission is to inspire the masses to fight for the Emperor while the Cardinal is a more traditional so they couldn't unlock that unit.

Actually this sounds pretty good.


I'd add in the Hellhound as a Transport/Heavy Support choice since it was developed from the Immolater STC and the agreement between the AdMech and Ecclesiarchy stated that new designs based off of the technology would have to be shared with the Church. I could see a Leman Russ flamer only variant as a Heavy Support choice as well.

Dead opposed to this. Hellhound/Russ as an allied unit taken under IG leadership, but absolutely not within the WH/SoB ranks.


One final Heavy Support change would be that orbital bombardments could be taken if the player uses a Cardinal as a HQ choice.

Only at high points cost to reflect the connections he'd have to have to get something like that, and the cost in other resources he wouldn't be able to develop (opportunity cost).


Another thing I'd like to see is Frateris Militia versions for Fast Attack, Troops, and Elites. For fast attack there could be a unit whose only job is to suicide bomb enemy troops. Hellebore wrote up some excellent rules for them as part of his Apoc Sister's troop ship datasheet. They would run to the nearest enemy unit and blow up, so they can be given fleet of foot. They wouldn't be armed with any weapons other then the bombs which would automatically detonate at the beginning of the assault phase:D Another Fast Attack choice would be zealots in buggies that would be similar to Speed Freaks. :D

Not too big a fan of that.


For Basic Troops I can see zealots and Frateris Militia mobs of 4-20 troops with a heavy/special weapon every 10 members. They would be armed with conventional farm implements and las pistols for zealots, but lasguns for Frateris Militia.

Sounds okay.


For Elites, I could see a Frateris Militia and zealot unit similar to the Celestians. They would all fulfill the same role, but would give a different look to the army.

Nope. I'd rather see Hardened Vets.


For Special Characters, I can see the bringing back of all the old Codex: Sisters of Battle 2nd Edition ones plus rules for creating your own special character in order to truly customize your army.

Oh yes. :D

Repressors for darned sure, but nothing else that isn't based on Rhinos or Chimeras. Inquisitor Lords can have what they want of course, but the rest can pick from the base list.

The_Patriot
22-09-2008, 01:05
@starlight: Agree on most everything except the Chimera and Leman Russ based flamer tanks that are church only as well as the disagreement on the Frateris/Zealot units. I can't see Sisters using the Repressor, so maybe make it an Inquisition only vehicle. I can see the list working out to be similar to the following. Edit: Forgot to add that Preachers would be a sergeant upgrade for Zealots and Frateris Militia using Elric's idea.

HQs
Inquisitor Lord (pick Ordo then select wargear and psyker powers for that Ordo, unlimited Adepta Sororitas units, unlimited Inquisitional Guard, disallowed from Frateris Militia/Zealots/Penitent Engines/Arcos)
Canonnes (Army is limited to Adepta Sororitas units only and disallows drop pods, but gains the ability to have 0-1 Famolus, Dialogus, and Hospitallers in 0-3 Celestian unit)
Palatine (same as Canoness except the limit is reduced to 0-2)
Cardinal (Allows orbital bombardments, drop pods/Valks/Arvus Lighters for Adepta Sororitas, unlimited choices of Adepta Sororitas units, 0-1 restriction on Frateris Militia units, 0-1 on Famolus/Dialogus/Hospitaller upgrades, Arcos/Penitent)
Confessor (Allows DCAs, unlimited Frateris Militia units, 0-1 restriction on Adepta Sororitas units, Arcos/Penitent)
Missionary (Allows DCAs, unlimited Zealots units, 0-1 restriction on Frateris Militia units, Arcos/Penitent)

Elites
Frateris Militia Veterans
Celestians
Frenzied Zealots
IST
Arcos
Sister Repentia

Troops
Battle Sisters
Frateris Militia Conscripts
Zealot Mob
Inquisitional Guard

Fast Attack
Seraphim
Dominion
Frateris Militia Bombers
Zealot Purifiers
Inquisitional Guard in a Chimera/Hellhound

Heavy Support
Orbital Bombardment
Retributers
Exorcists
Inquisitional Leman Russ
Inquisitional Land Raider
Immolator
Ecclesiarchy based Chimera
Ecclesiarchy based Leman Russ
Penitent Engines

Transports
Drop Pods
Arvus Lighter
Valkyries
Rhino
Immolator
Buggies
Chimera
Land Raider

I wish that GK/DW players would chime in more on what they'd like to see.

starlight
22-09-2008, 01:13
@starchild:

Who?

As to the list...too much stuff.


I wish that GK/DW players would chime in more on what they'd like to see.

Working on it.:p

The_Patriot
22-09-2008, 01:22
Who?

As to the list...too much stuff.



Working on it.:p

I changed it and my apologies for putting in your name wrong. :o

Not really too much stuff, but added flexibility to represent the degree of Inquisitional Army to Ecclesiarchy Army. The great thing about the Inquisitional stuff is that it doesn't have to be duplicated, since all of the Ordos would use them. The only thing that is new would be the Frateris Militia and Zealot units. Everything else is old brought forward.

Can't wait to see what you come up with for GK and DW. :) I was drawing a big blank on them since I don't play them.

Copella
22-09-2008, 02:26
I can't see Sisters using the Repressor, so maybe make it an Inquisition only vehicle.

Yeah, because its not the standard vehicle Sisters get issued when cleaning out hive cities. :rolleyes:


The Repressor tank is often used by Sisters of Battle and Adeptus Arbites and is used in an anti insurgency role.

The model already looks amazing, its abilities are exactly what Sisters can benefit from the most, so why would you even think of taking it away from them?

Most of the Frateris Militia stuff could so easily be swapped for IG stuff it really doesn't add anything new. We have IST as troops now, why would we want lesser versions of them? Zealots, absolutely. More church freaks sounds cool, but if they're going to be there to unlock other units, than they had better be damn well worth it. So should the units being unlocked. Nothing is more a kick in the teeth than having a hidden cost to a unit that is sub-par. That's right, I'm still glaring at you Repentias. :mad:

Firaxin
22-09-2008, 03:55
I wish that GK/DW players would chime in more on what they'd like to see.

Well the DW are supposedly the most mobile and best equipped marines.

I imagine stuff like Sternguard for troops; bikers on jetbikes with access to IG hunting lances; assault troopers with jetpacks and access to assault weapons, not just melee weapons; a heavier land speeder variant in HS...

Terminators don't fit my idea of ultramobile, so i'd reckon their elites would have artificer armor or something. Any other ideas for elites?

starlight
22-09-2008, 04:50
Given that Terminators are the weapon of choice against all things infesting Space Hulks, I wouldn't write them off too quickly...;)


I think that something along the lines of the Ravenwing with Mech Marines in support and Terminators on call in orbit/on ships...

Tags
22-09-2008, 05:56
I wish that GK/DW players would chime in more on what they'd like to see.

All this talk of SOB's is drowning out the testosterone required to full a post about GK but let me see what I can do.... EEEEEEEEERRRRRRRGGGGGGG! Ahhh lets see, PLASTIC GREY KNIGHT TERMIES! GK options are sooo limited it sux, I know the GK are meant to fight demons, but some options to make the GK viable against other foes would be better. How many opponents actually add demons to their armies when they fight Grey Knights!? I've never seen any... GK need some catch all weapons, that are effective against demons and can still put a hurt on enemies who may simply have seen too much.

matt_17
22-09-2008, 06:21
I wish that GK/DW players would chime in more on what they'd like to see.


The problems I had when I played GKs was the lack of variety, especially the lack of infantry equipped anti-tank weaponry, of any form - I don't need lascannons... but can I have a meltagun please, or at least some fluffily renamed anti daemon version.

The fact that they were a rapid response themed army who moved at a snails pace on the ground annoyed me. The run rule pretty much sorted out that gripe though.

Also, I reckon that the title of Justicar is simply too awesome to be given to a squad sergeant. I mean, going from Justicar to Terminator, or even Brother-Captain, sounds like a demotion to me. I like to see the Grey Knight squad leader title being changed to Brother-Sergeant or something similar. I think that Justicars should get some special treatment.

They should be an HQ choice separate from the Grand Master. I was thinking something along the lines of a librarian/chaplain combination or support based HQ (as opposed to the GM whose job is to go out a thrash the greater daemon of whoever stands in their way.) The Justicar should have things like granting rerolls to squads they are close/joined to or decreased shrouding distance. Things that aren't too game breaking, but are good enough to make you think before choosing the beast that is the GM or the tactical advantage offered by the Justicar.

Also, with the daemons now having eternal warrior, force weapons are no longer the best weapon for daemon slaying. The GM (and Justicar, at least the ones described above anyway) should deal extra wounds, similar to tyranid flesh-hooks.

Finally, GKs wit Jump Packs for 30 points would be great.

Was ignored... the SoB numbers conversation probably chased all the non SoB players away.

starlight
22-09-2008, 06:30
Hey!

:p

I play all of the Inquisition forces...well, aside from the lack of support for Deathwatch...:(

thenurgler
22-09-2008, 07:10
HQs
Inquisitor Lord (pick Ordo then select wargear and psyker powers for that Ordo, unlimited Adepta Sororitas units, unlimited Inquisitional Guard, disallowed from Frateris Militia/Zealots/Penitent Engines/Arcos)
Canonnes (Army is limited to Adepta Sororitas units only and disallows drop pods, but gains the ability to have 0-1 Famolus, Dialogus, and Hospitallers in 0-3 Celestian unit)
Palatine (same as Canoness except the limit is reduced to 0-2)
Cardinal (Allows orbital bombardments, drop pods/Valks/Arvus Lighters for Adepta Sororitas, unlimited choices of Adepta Sororitas units, 0-1 restriction on Frateris Militia units, 0-1 on Famolus/Dialogus/Hospitaller upgrades, Arcos/Penitent)
Confessor (Allows DCAs, unlimited Frateris Militia units, 0-1 restriction on Adepta Sororitas units, Arcos/Penitent)
Missionary (Allows DCAs, unlimited Zealots units, 0-1 restriction on Frateris Militia units, Arcos/Penitent)

Elites
Frateris Militia Veterans
Celestians
Frenzied Zealots
IST
Arcos
Sister Repentia

Troops
Battle Sisters
Frateris Militia Conscripts
Zealot Mob
Inquisitional Guard

Fast Attack
Seraphim
Dominion
Frateris Militia Bombers
Zealot Purifiers
Inquisitional Guard in a Chimera/Hellhound

Heavy Support
Orbital Bombardment
Retributers
Exorcists
Inquisitional Leman Russ
Inquisitional Land Raider
Immolator
Ecclesiarchy based Chimera
Ecclesiarchy based Leman Russ
Penitent Engines

Transports
Drop Pods
Arvus Lighter
Valkyries
Rhino
Immolator
Buggies
Chimera
Land Raider

I wish that GK/DW players would chime in more on what they'd like to see.

I feel like this is not realistic at all. Are you expecting *all* of this to be in the Inquisition book? I realize this is a wish list, but all I really want to see is a book which has basically the same demonhunter and witch hunter armies, but also incorporates the xenohunters as well in a logical manner. I don't think we need to see tons of new units to make it just as cool.

As a GK player that is the view I have, and you can incorporate inquisitorial guard into it as well as the storm troopers. Plus of course stuff like Death Watch which I feel are important in fleshing out the inquisition.

Temprus
22-09-2008, 08:00
I would prefer a Forces of the Imperium codex over a combined Inquisition. It would include Inquisition, GK, SoB, Ecclesiarchy and AdMech (though Sisters/Ecclesiarchy as a lone codex works too if the rest are in a combined codex). One reason I can see GW doing it this way is they don't need to release that many new minis if they don't want too. Separate codexes for GK/Sisters almost guarantee at least plastics for their troops and some vehicles (which I would prefer since I feel both lack easy customability with their limited metal poses).

HQ choices would define the basic army. Inquisitor has some access to all units/armies but most appear in Elite, Fast or Heavy slots for them with IG/Stormtroopers being Troops. HQs from the other groups makes the usual groups Troops (PA GKs, regular Battle Sisters, Militia, etc) ala SM/Orks. This way you can make which ever kind of army you want and still let Inquisition lead a little bit of everything as 5th goes out of the way to remind us they can/do.

Inquisition can also take some limited SM options like Tactical, Assault and Scout squads and some vehicles. Could have "regular" Inquisitors keep SM stuff in the Elite/Heavy/Fast slots with an Inquisitor Lords being able to take some SM stuff as troops (or only they get options for SM at all). Inquisitors have access to Assassins as usual. Deathwatch would be an option here, maybe with a special HQ.

Battle Sisters can be set up as one squad entry with options defining which slots they take since Seraphim, Celestians Dominions, and Retributors are basically Battle Sisters with fixed wargear and slightly modified stat lines (Repentia could still have their own entry). Be nice to have the non-militant orders as add-on options for any of the "command squads" for the various armies in this codex.

Ecclesiarchy is most likely a SoB only add-on unless there is a special HQ, like Confessor Kyrinov, that allows them to be the main focus for an army with the Sisters as a secondary focus. They could have Militia, different options for Priests/Confessors/etc., and the newer stuff added from WH like acro-flagellants or Penitent Engines.

GK could be set up as two squads choices (PA vs Terminators) plus vehicles and HQ. The options for the squad would dictate which slot they take up. Be nice if they actually had some kind of useful ability to fight chaos/daemons too. :angel:

I doubt GW has plans to make a full AdMech army, so they could just be options for the others (or just not added at all). The Defenders of the Imperium section mentions AdMech so it is possible they might get something in new 5th Ed.

The Defenders of the Imperium section also mentions Titans, so maybe Inquisitors could get some kind of bombardment ability (just much better/useful than the current versions) or something similar to what GW did with the rules for the Thunderfire Cannon to simulate this (could be under the AdMech section if they are in the codex). Most likely some version of Inquisitor will get something similar to/exactly like the SM Chapter Master's Orbital Bombardment.

Then again, IG's new codex could completely make this unneeded/unwanted as Inquisitors are rumored to be in there. If they get some kind of real mention there, then we could just have Sisters/Ecclesiarchy as a single codex and GK/Deathwatch as their own codex also. Drop all of the "single" entries with options suggested above and just use the current style separate entries for everything for GK/Sisters to fill out the books.

Be nice if there was some kind of allied system still no matter how they do/split the codex(es) since GK and Sisters both have fluff that they sometimes are used in limited numbers to help out other Imperial forces if there is need. Then again, we have fluff of a squads of SM supporting IG, which we can't really do now except in Apocalypse. ;)

Khornies & milk
22-09-2008, 08:53
I wish that GK/DW players would chime in more on what they'd like to see.

It's not like there haven't been multiple Threads of a similar vein over the past few months, and they pretty much ALL end up with the same comments/suggestions/disagreements/arguments/choices, so a simple 'search' would probably provide everything needed.

But anyway...............continue!

The_Patriot
22-09-2008, 15:17
Yeah, because its not the standard vehicle Sisters get issued when cleaning out hive cities. :rolleyes:



The model already looks amazing, its abilities are exactly what Sisters can benefit from the most, so why would you even think of taking it away from them?

Most of the Frateris Militia stuff could so easily be swapped for IG stuff it really doesn't add anything new. We have IST as troops now, why would we want lesser versions of them? Zealots, absolutely. More church freaks sounds cool, but if they're going to be there to unlock other units, than they had better be damn well worth it. So should the units being unlocked. Nothing is more a kick in the teeth than having a hidden cost to a unit that is sub-par. That's right, I'm still glaring at you Repentias. :mad:

In Faith and Fire the Sisters used Immolators against an insurgent group and their answer to the insurgency was to burn the city to the ground. That's part of the reason why I said I don't see Sisters using the Repressor. I see it more as an Arbiters vehicle then a Sisters vehicle.

Frateris Militia aren't IG and aren't equipped like IG. The only similarities I see between them and IG are that they could get lasguns as an upgrade option. Inquisitional Stormtroopers could only be used in an Inquisitional army while Frateris Militia would only be used in Ecclesiarchy armies.

Kettu
22-09-2008, 15:22
First off, where is everyone getting Frateris Militia fast attack, veterans and the such? They are a combination of PDF, religious nutters, crims and non-coms stirred up by some wacky priest into instigating violence or just got caught up with all the excitement with the killing and the looting.

They are not a standard military, they are just, in the most literal sense of the word, cannon-fodder.

However, having a squad of five or so of Halo's Warthog jeeps being driven around by religious nut-jobs using bike rules seems to have a certain zest to it.

Secondly, My take on a Sisters Codex.

HQ

Cannoness
Palatine
Cardinal/Confessor/Missionary. (Same stats, different special rules)

Cannoness/Palatine can each purchase one squad of Celestians or Seraphim outside of elites/fast attack to act as a command squad. Lots of options.
They must choose to be either Seraphim or Celestian trained. (Sera=hit & run, Celest=Holy rage)
Book of St. Lucy and the Litanies of Faith have stronger abilities on them &/or better faith abilities.

Ecclesiarchy HQ can purchase one squad of Militia outside of the troops choices with all the trimmings.
I was thinking one grants without number to the militia, one allows the entire army to gain fleet for a turn (ala Orks) and one grants FNP to the Militia.

I have an idea for a Sisters Chaplin styled HQ unit with awesome faith boosting abilities but have yet to form a unit.

Priests and Non-militant orders (Hospitallers, Dialogus and Famolus) are purchased 0-5 each in addition to standard HQ and are assigned to separate squads.

Elites

As per current codex but no Temple Assassins. (Keep Death Cultists)
Give Celestians a whole range of CC related options like power-weapons, dual-wield pistols and Shields.
Give Repentia something to make them worthwhile.
Perhaps an icon of sorts that Repentia could drag with them to battle that has some effect on the sisters near by.

Troops

Sisters (Add repressor as transport option)
Frateris Militia (crap Ld, poor, if any, armour)
Zealots (Better Ld, basic armour & flamers (Maybe weaker versions?))

Fast Attack

Seraphim
Dominions (Give them Infiltrate special rules)
Militia jeep squadrons (Special rule: They can charge up to 12" (or even turbo-boost?) and get S6 on the charge but should they fail to out-right kill or break the enemy unit then they are removed as casulties as they crash and burn. But if they only charge 6" then they don't get the strength bonus or crash)
Penitent Engine (Please give it Monstrous Creature stats, being a walker makes it too weak in my opinion)

Heavy Support

Retrubutions
Immolators with sponsons
Exorcists
Maybe a Massive Melta mounted on a rhino body.
War Cathedral. (make a small version to act as the Sisters extra heavy options.

Extras

Add drop-pods as an option. Come on, one transport that is part of their cannon and in all honesty, it won't just make them weak marines. We still have T3 and SUCK in CC with a passion. We still need to control that 6"-12" range or we are screwed.

Also, I stand by the idea to have sisters 'flee' d6 AWAY from the enemy in their assault phase if not charging, in CC already and didn't fire heavy weapons.

KEEP FAITH! It has been with the Girls since 2nd Ed. It would be a sad, sorry day they take this away.

---

Thoughts? Ideas?

The_Patriot
22-09-2008, 15:35
First off, where is everyone getting Frateris Militia fast attack, veterans and the such? They are a combination of PDF, religious nutters, crims and non-coms stirred up by some wacky priest into instigating violence or just got caught up with all the excitement with the killing and the looting.

They are not a standard military, they are just, in the most literal sense of the word, cannon-fodder.

Also, I stand by the idea to have sisters 'flee' d6 AWAY from the enemy in their assault phase if not charging, in CC already and didn't fire heavy weapons.

KEEP FAITH! It has been with the Girls since 2nd Ed. It would be a sad, sorry day they take this away.

---

Thoughts? Ideas?

I came up with the Fast Attack Frateris Militia suicide bombers since I think it's cool and the veterans would be retired IG/PDF troops that have battle experience. I view Zealots as a separate entity from the Frateris Militia based upon the Red Redemptionists of Necromunda. They're a specific cult within the Imperial Cult. It still doesn't change the fact that they're all cannon-fodder. :D

I like the War Cathedral idea, the fleet away from CC, but I can't see a chaplain style unit since the fluff doesn't support it.

Copella
22-09-2008, 17:24
In Faith and Fire the Sisters used Immolators against an insurgent group and their answer to the insurgency was to burn the city to the ground. That's part of the reason why I said I don't see Sisters using the Repressor. I see it more as an Arbiters vehicle then a Sisters vehicle.


Do you know what the Repressor is?
It has a heavy flamer on it. So they could easily burn down a city with it. Just because 1 novel has them using an Immolator, doesn't mean they shouldn't ever use something else. Especially when the tank transport in question was designed for them, and Arbites.
Pic of my Repressor (http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z283/Osaliske/Repressor1.jpg)




Frateris Militia aren't IG and aren't equipped like IG. The only similarities I see between them and IG are that they could get lasguns as an upgrade option. Inquisitional Stormtroopers could only be used in an Inquisitional army while Frateris Militia would only be used in Ecclesiarchy armies.

Frateris Militia are not as good as IG, true. They fill the exact same role. A ton of cheap models (pts wise) with lasguns. What would the benefit of having Church versions of IST and Guard be?

Raeho
22-09-2008, 17:55
Well, I've been lurking around here for quite a while, and as a pure GK player, decided to try my hand at thinking of some changes for the DH list, as well as taking a shot at an AH list. Go easy please. ;)

Daemonhunters
HQ - I think the orbital strike should be an option for all the choices here, except the chaplain, as it doesn't really make much sense for him
Inquisitor Lord (As per codex, radical inquisitors could have some crazy daemonicish weapon and retinue choices, daemon weapons anyone?)
Grey Knight Hero (GM or BC, retinues as per codex)
Grey Knight Chaplain (Retinue available as well)
I'm surprised nobody seems to want to see something like this happening, there is at least one chaplain in the GK novels, so I don't see why one hasn't been seen on the field yet. Think about how awesome you would have to be to rise to that rank in the Grey Knights! Of course, both characters would have the mandatory terminator armor.

Elites - Restrictions as per the current codex, e.g. Daemonhosts means no GK, assassins need inquisitors
Inquisitors (As per codex)
Assassins (It would probably be good for them to expand on the other two temples here. Only one temple would be allowed to be fielded at any time of course)
Death Cultists (As per codex, some options could be given to represent death cultists that aren't close combat oriented)
Grey Knight Terminators (As per codex)

Troops
Inquisitorial Storm Troopers (As per codex, giving them some form of heavy weapon would be good)
Cultist mob (These guys could be cultists unwittingly being used by a radical inquisitor, they could have certain marks of chaos to augment them. Obviously they would not be able to be fielded alongside knights)
Grey Knights (I think it could be fun, as well as not overly game breaking to let them teleport into battle as per the fast attack knights. Currently there those guys are a horrible choice since they can't score, which frankly doesn't make much sense since they are exactly the same as regular knights)

Fast Attack - This ones pretty difficult, by nature, the daemonhunters don't really have fast attack in their armies, as is obvious in the current codex.
Stormtroopers on bikes?
Some sort of GK unit with jump packs or warp spider type teleporter? It's hard to think of something that fits the imagery of the chapter, but I'm sure some other more creative people at GW or FW could make something up.

Heavy Support
Inquisitorial Land Raider
Super Crazy Daemonic Tank Buster Soulgrinder Type Dude (Radical)
Grey Knight Purgation Squad
Grey Knight Dreadnought
Grey Knight Venerable Dreadnought (I'm thinking that all GK dreads should be venerable by default, since the only difference would be the damage table reroll, as GK dreads are all ws5 anyway)
Grey Knight Land Raiders (Regular, Crusader, Redeemer, and hopefully the crazy FW variant with psycannon sponsons that i remember reading about somewhere)

Alienhunters
HQ - Orbital bombardment for all, like the DH guys
Inquisitor Lord (Generic henchmen, radicals could have aliens in their retinues, xenos weaponry and such)
Deathwatch Captain (Preferred enemy when hitting xenos, ability to use the sternguard special ammo would also be a good start to making them different from other captains, Deathwatch squad as retinue)

Elites - Restrictions again, some other form of elites choice for pure inquisition armies would also do well.
Inquisitor
Assassins
Death Cultists
Deathwatch Specialist (Librarian, Chaplain, Techmarine, etc, can take their own Deathwatch squad as a retinue)
I kind of see these guys as being more of an "upgrade" to the force, rather than being the ones running the show, as seen in the Deathwatch novels. The books also show that these guys are actually present in the Deathwatch, so it shouldn't be too much of a stretch for them to appear on the table.
Deathwatch Terminators (Crazy ammo options, maybe even some that can go into the assault cannon)
Yes, I am one of those people who believe that the Deathwatch has access to terminators and dreadnoughts. It's an honor to be part of the Deathwatch, and asking for the heavier equipment should mean that there is something really bad going on, so i don't see why a chapter master would decline the request.

Troops
Inquisitorial Storm Troopers
Deathwatch Squad (Crazy ammo options, insane customization, like the current rules, but more insane! )

Fast Attack
Stormtrooper bikers again?
Deathwatch Assault Marines (Not too big a fan of this idea actually)
Deathwatch Bikers (Even less of a fan, though it wouldn't be too hard to imagine, *cough* Warrior Coven)

Heavy Support
Inquisitorial Land Raider
Deathwatch Awesome Suspensor Heavy Weapon Guys (I think these guys should have access to the other heavy weapons, besides the standard heavy weapons. I could see heavy flamers working pretty well here)
Deathwatch Dreadnought
Deathwatch Land Raiders (Same deal with GK, except minus the GK variant of course)

Deathwatch would have access to drop pods, but Grey Knights wouldnt, as their whole army would be teleporting down anyway, and they probably just chuck down their vehicles from orbit.

They're pretty rough lists, but that's what I got at the moment. Thoughts, comments?

matt_17
22-09-2008, 20:35
Grey Knight Chaplain (Retinue available as well)
I'm surprised nobody seems to want to see something like this happening, there is at least one chaplain in the GK novels, so I don't see why one hasn't been seen on the field yet. Think about how awesome you would have to be to rise to that rank in the Grey Knights! Of course, both characters would have the mandatory terminator armor.

I mentioned something like this, I reckon that this type of choice should be where the title of Justicar is used.


Grey Knights (I think it could be fun, as well as not overly game breaking to let them teleport into battle as per the fast attack knights. Currently there those guys are a horrible choice since they can't score, which frankly doesn't make much sense since they are exactly the same as regular knights)

Agree.


Fast Attack - This ones pretty difficult, by nature, the daemonhunters don't really have fast attack in their armies, as is obvious in the current codex.
Stormtroopers on bikes?
Some sort of GK unit with jump packs or warp spider type teleporter? It's hard to think of something that fits the imagery of the chapter, but I'm sure some other creative people at GW or FW could make something up.

I think that the GK fast attack should feature GKs with short range, high strength (8+) weaponry whose job is to get stuck in and blow the snot out of the enemy big nasties.
The imagery of some badass guys arriving from nowhere and melting holes in the brass armour of Khorne or a Soulgrinder hull is awesome. Their guns could be S 8 or 9 AP 3 (because the best daemon armour is 3+) or 1 (for the soulgrinders/defilers) and have gets hot to represent the danger of it drawing too much psychic current from its wielder and frying his brain.



Grey Knight Venerable Dreadnought (I'm thinking that all GK dreads should be venerable by default, since the only difference would be the damage table reroll, as GK dreads are all ws5 anyway)

Agree

BaronDG
23-09-2008, 00:24
Oh, come on! Sisters don't fall back, they martyr themselves! It's what they're there for! That's the name of the game!

Raeho
23-09-2008, 03:10
I think that the GK fast attack should feature GKs with short range, high strength (8+) weaponry whose job is to get stuck in and blow the snot out of the enemy big nasties.
The imagery of some badass guys arriving from nowhere and melting holes in the brass armour of Khorne or a Soulgrinder hull is awesome. Their guns could be S 8 or 9 AP 3 (because the best daemon armour is 3+) or 1 (for the soulgrinders/defilers) and have gets hot to represent the danger of it drawing too much psychic current from its wielder and frying his brain.

That does sound pretty cool, although I think if they don't have some sort equipment to help them move faster, they sound like they'd fit more in the elites or heavy support slots, but thats just me. After all, all GK can teleport, so they wouldn't actually be faster than the other guys.

The_Patriot
23-09-2008, 03:33
Do you know what the Repressor is?
It has a heavy flamer on it. So they could easily burn down a city with it. Just because 1 novel has them using an Immolator, doesn't mean they shouldn't ever use something else. Especially when the tank transport in question was designed for them, and Arbites.
Pic of my Repressor (http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z283/Osaliske/Repressor1.jpg)

I know what the Repressor is and it's more of a police vehicle then a combat vehicle. It's design fits the Arbites pretty well, but not so well for Sisters. However, as a concession I wouldn't mind seeing it in the codex.


Frateris Militia are not as good as IG, true. They fill the exact same role. A ton of cheap models (pts wise) with lasguns. What would the benefit of having Church versions of IST and Guard be?

The benefit of having Church versions of IST and IG would be the need to not have complicated ally rules and the reliance upon another Codex. The other benefit is that they would be built to represent what they're supposed to be which is cheap and expendable Church troops. This means that they wouldn't be able to get armor upgrades for the Troops selection, but I can see it for the Elites version. They would also be very limited in what they can have in the way of kit which the IG doesn't suffer from. Also, it would be impossible to have suicide bombers built from IG.

@Raeho: Good job on the list, but there would be some changes needed to the list. Mainly have temple assassins and DCAs selectable only if an Inquisitor [Lord] is chosen as an HQ choice. I'd recommend adding to the Elites GK Scouts, for Fast Attack GK in Land Speeders/Jump Packs/Jet Bikes, and GK Librarians for HQ since nothing in the fluff prohibits it. In Grey Knights there was an equivalent of a Librarian working in the GK.

Raeho
23-09-2008, 04:10
@Raeho: Good job on the list, but there would be some changes needed to the list. Mainly have temple assassins and DCAs selectable only if an Inquisitor [Lord] is chosen as an HQ choice. I'd recommend adding to the Elites GK Scouts, for Fast Attack GK in Land Speeders/Jump Packs/Jet Bikes, and GK Librarians for HQ since nothing in the fluff prohibits it. In Grey Knights there was an equivalent of a Librarian working in the GK.

Well, the GK don't use scouts in battle, but the land speeders and jet bikes could work. I would love to see GK jetbikers, although the chances of GW giving us that is probably slimmer than them making a custodes army. :rolleyes:

Firaxin
23-09-2008, 04:51
Well, the GK don't use scouts in battle, but the land speeders and jet bikes could work. I would love to see GK jetbikers, although the chances of GW giving us that is probably slimmer than them making a custodes army. :rolleyes:

They don't fit with a grey knights army, but they fit well with deathwatch.

matt_17
23-09-2008, 06:07
That does sound pretty cool, although I think if they don't have some sort equipment to help them move faster, they sound like they'd fit more in the elites or heavy support slots, but thats just me. After all, all GK can teleport, so they wouldn't actually be faster than the other guys.

I was by no means precluding them from having speed enhancing equipment (jump packs to help chase down a bloodthirster anyone?) just saying what I thought a good concept for GK fast attack would be.

Kettu
23-09-2008, 07:11
Oh, come on! Sisters don't fall back, they martyr themselves! It's what they're there for! That's the name of the game!

Yes, and we'll keep the Martyr rules and the best piece of gear for making little girls stubborn (Book of St. Lucy) and so We'll still have them going down in a blaze of glory against anything more competent then Imps but still, a potential for one more turn of shooting the Heretics before the inevitable downfall is, IMHO, a perfect idea and really fitting with their fluff.

You know, battlefield strategy and all that.

AdmiralDick
23-09-2008, 11:22
For GK, I'd like to see the points drop on them, the addition of drop pods, and more choices that are inline with standard Marines. For DW, I can see them being a standard Marine list with the addition of an Inquisitor.

that sounds like pretty much the opposite of what i would want for the GK and DW. your suggestions would sound like they would help the armies, but ultimately i think they would remove any element of what made the factions good in the first place. watering them down yet further will simply make them look like a much worse idea.

specifically, i'd like to pick you up on the idea of making the DW a 'standard marine' list. the DW are anything but standard. they are drawn from the ranks of chapters either because of their experience or because of debts and tithes owed by the chapter. they should have a totally different structure and distribution of troops (having no normal scouts for instance), and bear only a passing similarity to a Codex Astartes Chapter, in that it has marines in it.


To be honest I actually fear GW releasing a DH/WH codex cause it will probably result in a massive gutting of options.

i do really like the quirky nature of the =]I[= wargear. it is one of the defining factors of the inquisition (their ability to lay their hands on all sorts of stuff), and it would be a great shame if GW did not choose to continue that theme.


So really, by your logic, Space marines should be a 0-1 tactical squad option in the IG codex with anything extra put into Appoc.

and what a wonderful world it would be.

seriously though, we obverse the game not as a distant third party (or we'd never see any fighting at all, just mind-numbing amounts of empty space), but through the eyes of the armies that we play. if we see a statistically unlikely number of Space Marines, it is because Space Marines interact with Space Marines regularly.

to illustrate the point, you would not find it surprising to find out that Pandas will routinely see other Pandas, perhaps more often than they will see humans. this is in spite of the fact that Pandas are one of the rarest animals on earth and humans are one of the most common.


One, drop pods does not equal dedicated CC units.

now you've got me thinking about all the kinds of things you could drop into enemy lines; like new pieces of equipment that disrupt enemy shooting within a certain distance.


As to the list...too much stuff.

codexes generally have between 17 and 25 unit choices, excluding special characters, so aiming within that bracket is realistic. and i am inclined to agree that Sisters should be at the upper end of that scale considering how many wacky options they should be allowed to field.


Well the DW are supposedly the most mobile and best equipped marines.

I imagine stuff like Sternguard for troops; bikers on jetbikes with access to IG hunting lances; assault troopers with jetpacks and access to assault weapons, not just melee weapons; a heavier land speeder variant in HS...

Terminators don't fit my idea of ultramobile, so i'd reckon their elites would have artificer armor or something. Any other ideas for elites?

i quite like your ideas. whilst i'm still not sold on the idea of a DW armylist, if there was to be one, i'd like to see more units like this.


Given that Terminators are the weapon of choice against all things infesting Space Hulks, I wouldn't write them off too quickly...;)

whilst i think you have a point, its worth remembering that if the Death Watch were to muster an army, then it would not be the same kind of situation at all.


Ahhh lets see, PLASTIC GREY KNIGHT TERMIES!

honestly, there are about a million and one other things that GW could produce in plastic kit form that would be of benefit to more player and of more benefit to the game as a whole than plastic GK terminators. particularly considering that even GK armies are unlikely to include more than 10 such models.

plastic sisters would be a smarter option. but then so would another IG legion, a Ultramarines/Blood Angles sprue (giving us a much greater variety of components to be working and converting with), another plastic superheavy chassis that is non-imperial (such as Ork or Eldar), a space marine veteran sprue that included one of every other mark of armour currently not available, plastic Plague Bearers and Horrors, Grots, Chaos Space Marine Heavy Weapons and just about anything else you can think of. all would sell better and be of more value to the overall game than GK.

don't get me wrong, i would like to see plastic GKs too, but they really aren't a priority right now.


GK options are sooo limited it sux, I know the GK are meant to fight demons, but some options to make the GK viable against other foes would be better.

would it?

why would negating the theme that makes GKs cool make them better? if the GK were just another generic SM chapter what would be cool about them then? their blinging armour?

GKs are supposed to be rock hard against Daemons, at the exclusion of all else. it is that level of dedication and obsessive behaviour that makes them cool. they shouldn't give a fig about anything else, and should walk away from any battle that does not directly connect to fighting daemons, even when provoked, because anything less is simply unworthy of there attention. there is bound to be some IG company somewhere that can fight those pesky DE, whilst we GKs go and look for some daemons to shove the boot into.


How many opponents actually add demons to their armies when they fight Grey Knights!? I've never seen any...

there are some obvious reasons for this. the most obvious of all being that Daemons are at a distinct disadvantage against GKs. the balance needs to be redressed. personally i would have made the case the other way round, i.e. you are only allowed Grey Knights if your opponent is playing with Daemons.

however there are much less extreme ways in which this could happen.

Lord Solar Plexus
23-09-2008, 13:34
@The_Patriot: I think your confusing fluff and rules here. If I understand you correctly, your peeve is that Sisters cannot deploy by deep strike in the game while everyone else can.


IG use shuttles, trans-atmospheric transports like the Valk, drop pods, and other methods of deployment via the air.


IG has only the drop troop doctrine. IA allows flyers. There are no drop pods rules-wise.



Eldar and Dark Eldar use the webway to enter a planet.


Not sure about Eldar but I've only ever seen Hawks DS.



Tyranids and Orks use a ship to crashland onto a planet.


But not directly into battle. Only a few select units (Lictors, Gargoyles) can DS although the fluff for Lictors is that they have been there all along.



Tau have their Hammerheads and other transport vehicles to go between atmosphere and space.


Actually it's Manta and Orcas I believe. However, this has no bearing on game-play. Suits can DS if you're so inclined.

So, some other armies can deploy completely directly into battle while most have only a few selected units.



Only one army in the entire game has no options for an air insertion.


I gather you can ally with Imperial Guard. The codex mentions that you can also use variant armies such as Catachans. That means you can also use Elysians. Voila, drop troops and/or flyers!

Slaaneshi Slave
23-09-2008, 13:47
You can only use basic Guardsmen with no docrines allied to a WH force.

Lord Solar Plexus
23-09-2008, 15:27
The benefit of having Church versions of IST and IG would be the need to not have complicated ally rules and the reliance upon another Codex. The other benefit is that they would be built to represent what they're supposed to be which is cheap and expendable Church troops.


The Church is however bound not to have any men-at-arms after the Apostate Cardinal and Sebastian Thor. That's why they're Sisters of Battle, not brothers.


You can only use basic Guardsmen with no docrines allied to a WH force.

Directly from my codex ("Avoir pour Allies les Chasseurs des Sorcieres", second bullet point): Garde Imperiale et ses variantes, comme les Gardes de la Jungle de Catachan ou la Legion d'Acier d'Armageddon.

So...Elysians are a Guard variant just as Catachans or Steel Legion. Whether the latter are still valid should be irrelevant. Not?

Kettu
23-09-2008, 15:40
@Lord Solar Plexus;

To quote myself: Frateris Militia ... They are a combination of PDF, religious nutters, crims and non-coms stirred up by some wacky priest into instigating violence or just got caught up with all the excitement with the killing and the looting.

So, yes. As long as no one inside the church lays claim to them as a private army then it's all good. They are the rabble that follow in the wake of religious war.
Zealots go one step further and form their own armies but still, as long as no one in the church lays claim to their formation or workings then it has yet to break the law of the Decree Passive.

And about allies. You are reading the part about using Sisters as allies to an IG army not the part about IG being allies to a Sisters army.

The_Patriot
23-09-2008, 15:46
The Church is however bound not to have any men-at-arms after the Apostate Cardinal and Sebastian Thor. That's why they're Sisters of Battle, not brothers.

Directly from my codex ("Avoir pour Allies les Chasseurs des Sorcieres", second bullet point): Garde Imperiale et ses variantes, comme les Gardes de la Jungle de Catachan ou la Legion d'Acier d'Armageddon.

So...Elysians are a Guard variant just as Catachans or Steel Legion. Whether the latter are still valid should be irrelevant. Not?

The actual wording is Men-under-arms and Frateris Militia do not fulfill this since they're all volunteer and raised on the planet the crusade is taking place on. Also, lay the blame on GW for having Frateris Militia in the fluff. ;)

Sisters cannot use any variations of an IG unit. They can only use basic IG.

Lord Solar Plexus
23-09-2008, 16:14
@Lord Solar Plexus;
...
As long as no one inside the church lays claim to them as a private army then it's all good.


Okay - I stumbled over the phrasings "Church troops"!



And about allies. You are reading the part about using Sisters as allies to an IG army not the part about IG being allies to a Sisters army.

Good grievance, you're right! Excuse my French! :)

However, that's nevertheless a possible way to combine drop troops with Sisters. 40 Sisters, an Inq with some mystics, an assassin or Celestians and a squad of Seraphim can easily come to 800+ points (more if you buy the Inq a Land Raider). That leaves you with 700 or so for some drop troops.

The_Patriot
23-09-2008, 16:24
However, that's nevertheless a possible way to combine drop troops with Sisters. 40 Sisters, an Inq with some mystics, an assassin or Celestians and a squad of Seraphim can easily come to 800+ points (more if you buy the Inq a Land Raider). That leaves you with 700 or so for some drop troops.

And the army will not be valid. In order to use Sisters in another army you would still need to fulfill the requirements from the original army's codex meaning you would need 1 HQ and 2 troops from the original army. There are also the strict limits on what you can take that usually have a 0-1 restriction. The point of this thread isn't to make an IG or SM army then add in Sisters, but to make the Inquisitional armies independent and stand on their own as a full army. Also, your suggestion is nothing more then play IG/SM with Sisters allies and the core of the army is still IG/SM.

Kettu
24-09-2008, 06:17
Cannoness/Palatine can each purchase one squad of Celestians or Seraphim outside of elites/fast attack to act as a command squad. Lots of options.
They must choose to be either Seraphim or Celestian trained. (Sera=hit & run, Celest=Holy rage)
Book of St. Lucy and the Litanies of Faith have stronger abilities on them &/or better faith abilities.

Been giving this some more thought and I think this is a great idea. You choose a training field for the girl and you get their related special rules. Because, as I understand it, the best of the Sisters are chosen for Seraphim or Celestian duty and from there they are then promoted into a Palatine position and then Cannoness and so, they should still remember what they learned.
And the Celestian or Seraphim squad they can take has a banner option.


I have an idea for a Sisters Chaplin styled HQ unit with awesome faith boosting abilities but have yet to form a unit.

Been thinking a bit more and how about a generic Living Saint HQ choice. Give them a variety of rare and sacred items and choose a 'miracle' special rule (Celestine's Immortality? Healing Aura? Psychic Immunity? Death's Touch?) Give them Immortal Warrior and that much-begrudged d6 loss of faith on advent of death and Bob's your uncle, the Emperor's Daemon Princesses are ready to fight for humanities golden path.


Give Celestians a whole range of CC related options like power-weapons, dual-wield pistols and Shields.
Give Repentia something to make them worthwhile.
Perhaps an icon of sorts that Repentia could drag with them to battle that has some effect on the sisters near by.

And make Sarissa standard kit. That way we could have a squad set up as a micro-retribution squad, fire-support or an absolute CC monster.

The Repentia icon idea I have been thinking about more, some large icon from some long, lost shrine that the repentia are tasked to protect. They gain combat advantages, Sisters within 6" or 12" treat it as the mini-banners that they can take (roll three dice for faith tests) as they all fight harder from inspirations at watching the repentia fighting to gain the Emperors blessing.


War Cathedral. (Make a small version to act as the Sisters extra heavy options.

Rough idea: F14, S13, R12, BS4 Type: Tank
Transport: 15?
Weapons: 2 Immolator guns (twin linked heavy flamers) can be upgraded to Heavy Bolters or Multi-meltas. 1 Inferno Cannon, can be upgraded to Massive Bolter (Maybe like a baby Vulcan Mega Bolter), Massive Melta (48" range) or Exorcist Launcher.


Another thing I'd like to see is Frateris Militia versions for Fast Attack, Troops, and Elites. For fast attack there could be a unit whose only job is to suicide bomb enemy troops. Hellebore wrote up some excellent rules for them as part of his Apoc Sister's troop ship datasheet. They would run to the nearest enemy unit and blow up, so they can be given fleet of foot. They wouldn't be armed with any weapons other then the bombs which would automatically detonate at the beginning of the assault phase:D

How about if they were an upgrade for the Militia mobs? Instead of the mob charging (or even with the mob charging) they charge and go boom.
Perhaps the Militia mob gets a cover save as they are expecting this and dive out of the way in time?

Also, make blessed weapons more common (F@$%*^& marines stealing our kit).
And bring back Helena; help make Sisters unique with this ****-kicking non-militant lady.

Jayden63
24-09-2008, 06:45
The future of these two codexs is easy to see. Just look at what has models and what doesn't.

Repentia are going to get a points cut and ability boost. You wont even think of going into battle without at least 6 penitiant engines. They will be that good. GKs in general will get a points cut, their termis will get a performance upgrade.

Its going to be sick.

The_Patriot
24-09-2008, 16:24
Been giving this some more thought and I think this is a great idea. You choose a training field for the girl and you get their related special rules. Because, as I understand it, the best of the Sisters are chosen for Seraphim or Celestian duty and from there they are then promoted into a Palatine position and then Cannoness and so, they should still remember what they learned.
And the Celestian or Seraphim squad they can take has a banner option.

I wouldn't give Seraphim a banner, but keep the Standard Imperialis. No sense in watering down Celestians. However, I would make the change that these units can confer Holy Hatred or Hit and Run to the Canonness/Palatine when they join the unit.


Been thinking a bit more and how about a generic Living Saint HQ choice. Give them a variety of rare and sacred items and choose a 'miracle' special rule (Celestine's Immortality? Healing Aura? Psychic Immunity? Death's Touch?) Give them Immortal Warrior and that much-begrudged d6 loss of faith on advent of death and Bob's your uncle, the Emperor's Daemon Princesses are ready to fight for humanities golden path.

That would fit with my idea of rules for creating your own hero. :)


And make Sarissa standard kit. That way we could have a squad set up as a micro-retribution squad, fire-support or an absolute CC monster.

I'd give the Sarissa to all the foot units, but Seraphim would be unable to carry it.


The Repentia icon idea I have been thinking about more, some large icon from some long, lost shrine that the repentia are tasked to protect. They gain combat advantages, Sisters within 6" or 12" treat it as the mini-banners that they can take (roll three dice for faith tests) as they all fight harder from inspirations at watching the repentia fighting to gain the Emperors blessing.

It's a nice idea, but it doesn't fit with the fluff. Instead they would confer Holy Hatred, Holy Rage, or Fearless if the Repentia die. Maybe give Repentia Fleet of Foot and a Save of 4+ would be a good boost.


Rough idea: F14, S13, R12, BS4 Type: Tank
Transport: 15?
Weapons: 2 Immolator guns (twin linked heavy flamers) can be upgraded to Heavy Bolters or Multi-meltas. 1 Inferno Cannon, can be upgraded to Massive Bolter (Maybe like a baby Vulcan Mega Bolter), Massive Melta (48" range) or Exorcist Launcher.

I like it, but maybe change the transport option to 20 since that is the maximum size of a Sister Squad. I would think this would be a miniature version of the vehicle in the art that was floating above the troops in the background in Codex: WH. I can't think of the name off the top of my head.


How about if they were an upgrade for the Militia mobs? Instead of the mob charging (or even with the mob charging) they charge and go boom.
Perhaps the Militia mob gets a cover save as they are expecting this and dive out of the way in time?

Well remember the old saying, "Only in death does duty end." How about these troops do not confer any VPs or KPs to your opponent when they detonate?


Also, make blessed weapons more common (F@$%*^& marines stealing our kit).
And bring back Helena; help make Sisters unique with this ****-kicking non-militant lady.

Blessed weapons should be an upgrade option for all Sister Superiors, Canonnes, and Palatine.

Hellgore
24-09-2008, 16:40
By the way, ordinary Grey Knights do teleport. Sure, in the codex it is called a `Fast Attack', but regular Battle Sisters in a Rhino was once called `Fast Attack' too. A Drop Pod is beyond pointless.

Just stumbled over this today, so maybe a late answer... but as I am just reading the novel Grey Knights I must say, that they also DO use drop pods. And to quite a bit extend. It's the opening story where almost have the chapter lands on an infested planet - with drop pods, not teleport.
So drop pods would also make sense

Hellgore
24-09-2008, 17:19
....and what I want to see with the GK/DH are truely working psychic powers and upgraded equipment, that fits within the 5th ed rules and - foremost - makes them a true opponent for daemons. The Codex:Daemons just got all the stuff needed to make the DH look really f...ed up. No Instability anymore, for example, or Eternal Warrior on all Daemons. What is a Psyweapon then still good for?
I think, there should be more weight in case for a new codex than whether all GKs teleport or not.

The_Patriot
25-09-2008, 03:16
Just stumbled over this today, so maybe a late answer... but as I am just reading the novel Grey Knights I must say, that they also DO use drop pods. And to quite a bit extend. It's the opening story where almost have the chapter lands on an infested planet - with drop pods, not teleport.
So drop pods would also make sense

I nearly forgot about that book and you make a valid point. ;)


....and what I want to see with the GK/DH are truely working psychic powers and upgraded equipment, that fits within the 5th ed rules and - foremost - makes them a true opponent for daemons. The Codex:Daemons just got all the stuff needed to make the DH look really f...ed up. No Instability anymore, for example, or Eternal Warrior on all Daemons. What is a Psyweapon then still good for?
I think, there should be more weight in case for a new codex than whether all GKs teleport or not.

I could see GK forcing daemons to take instability tests through either gear or through psyker powers.

Edited the first post in the thread to incorporate all of the suggestions presented so far that were agreed upon.

Raeho
25-09-2008, 04:31
Just stumbled over this today, so maybe a late answer... but as I am just reading the novel Grey Knights I must say, that they also DO use drop pods. And to quite a bit extend. It's the opening story where almost have the chapter lands on an infested planet - with drop pods, not teleport.
So drop pods would also make sense

I would say that from a fluff perspective, the Grey Knights would have drop pods to do landings on such hostile planets like the one at the start of the novel, where they would probably be slaughtered if they had teleported down. The drop pods let them get in safely and disorient the enemy long enough for the knights to pop out and keep the daemons rocking on their heels. I imagine they would also use them if say there was a Tzeentch sorceror playing around with the warp currents and making teleportation unsafe, to say the least.

However, in the game, there isn't really anything to represent that, so I don't think drop pods are really necessary, since they're only there for emergency situations like above. Maybe instead of that, the knights could have some other rules to represent their teleportation prowess, like rerolling the scatter dice, like the Legion of the Damned.

The_Patriot
25-09-2008, 16:14
I would say that from a fluff perspective, the Grey Knights would have drop pods to do landings on such hostile planets like the one at the start of the novel, where they would probably be slaughtered if they had teleported down. The drop pods let them get in safely and disorient the enemy long enough for the knights to pop out and keep the daemons rocking on their heels. I imagine they would also use them if say there was a Tzeentch sorceror playing around with the warp currents and making teleportation unsafe, to say the least.

However, in the game, there isn't really anything to represent that, so I don't think drop pods are really necessary, since they're only there for emergency situations like above. Maybe instead of that, the knights could have some other rules to represent their teleportation prowess, like rerolling the scatter dice, like the Legion of the Damned.

Plastic drop pods will be released next month, so there will be something to represent them. GK should have access to drop pods.

breg
25-09-2008, 19:33
What would I like to see???
I will tell you:
Arbites. From what I have read they are pretty much the rank and file below the IG. Plus it would really open up some conversion options. That and it just seems that an Inquisitor would be likely to recruit/press arbites into his or her service just because they might be closer at hand than anything else.

The_Patriot
27-09-2008, 03:48
What would I like to see???
I will tell you:
Arbites. From what I have read they are pretty much the rank and file below the IG. Plus it would really open up some conversion options. That and it just seems that an Inquisitor would be likely to recruit/press arbites into his or her service just because they might be closer at hand than anything else.

An interesting idea and I like it, but it does need a full list of their own to represent them. Perhaps you could come up with ideas for making Arbites a viable army of their own. :)

mysterex
27-09-2008, 08:35
In my opinion one of the big problems with the daemon hunter / witch hunter lists is that it is impossible to create a table viable list that does use allied gray knights, sisters (or ecclesiarchy), marines or guard.

If you want a pure (and preferably radical force) you're limited to inquisitors, assassins, daemonhosts, (relatively hopeless) storm troopers and an orbital strike. This means no fast attack options and just one heavy slot.

Even the title of this thread sums it up. Most people discount other options and feel the need to take either knights or sisters to make it work.

Kettu
27-09-2008, 09:40
@Breg;

Arbites are actually a cut above the standard IG Imps. Being from, on the most part, the same training facilities that Storm Troopers and Commisars come from.

Much like the Sisterhood, Storm Troopers, Commisars and the such, Arbites isn't just a job any old joe from Argi-world No.5076 just walks into, they are chosen from the Imperium-wide Orphanage (Currently forgot it's name) upon their graduation.

As for an army list? Cyber-k9 units, enforcers, Sentinals, Repressors, lotsa shotguns with fancy ammo (See new SM Codex) Supression Shields, Power/shock maul.

HQ is the Judge. (See Judge Dredd)

The_Patriot
27-09-2008, 16:45
In my opinion one of the big problems with the daemon hunter / witch hunter lists is that it is impossible to create a table viable list that does use allied gray knights, sisters (or ecclesiarchy), marines or guard.

If you want a pure (and preferably radical force) you're limited to inquisitors, assassins, daemonhosts, (relatively hopeless) storm troopers and an orbital strike. This means no fast attack options and just one heavy slot.

Even the title of this thread sums it up. Most people discount other options and feel the need to take either knights or sisters to make it work.

Well GK and Sisters predate the Inquisition by one edition and the point of this thread was develop ideas for creating the wide range of lists from pure Sisters of Battle/GK to pure Inquisition forces. This way everyone gets what they want.

@Kettu: Think you could come up with a viable list for Arbites?

rintinglen
27-09-2008, 18:16
[QUOTE=cailus;2950770]To be honest I actually fear GW releasing a DH/WH codex cause it will probably result in a massive gutting of options.

I know the Marine codex is full of options but that is the Marine codex. The other codexes have had big reductions in wargear and flexibility in favour of a more dumb down approach.[/QUO

I couldn't agree more. It is a sad fact that new Imperial Codices have all been weakened. Point costs go up, powers and abilities diminish or disappear. If you don't play Eldar, oh well.

Elric of Grans
27-09-2008, 22:38
Well GK and Sisters predate the Inquisition by one edition

I cannot let that one pass. They all made their first appearances in the fluff in Rogue Trader, and from recollection the rules for Inquisitors and Grey Knights appeared at the same time. Unless there was a mysterious edition before then, there is no way they could have been an edition earlier. In fact, the Inquisition (distinct from the Sisters and Grey Knights) makes more sense in a Rogue Trader than in fifth edition. A very small group around a very hitty Inquisitor fits the fluff more than an Inquisitor surrounded by a couple of hundred soldiers on a battle field. On the other hand, a hundred Sisters, or five Grey Knights (they are 500 points each, right ;) ), is perfectly fluffy.

keatsmeister
27-09-2008, 23:55
Some fantastic ideas in this thread so far, fascinating reading :D

On a general note, there are two avenues to be explored here

1 - Seperate Codices for Sisters of Battle (should really be a Codex: Ecclesiarchy), Chapters of the Inquisition including Grey Knights, Deathwatch and the Exorcists (think Grey Knights with a radical slant), and finally Agents of the Imperium covering the Inquisition, Assassins and$ the Adeptus Arbites.

2 - A bumper Codex Imperium a la the 2nd edition Chaos Codex covering Sisters, Grey Knights, Inquisitors, Arbites and the Ecclesiarchy.

There is no reason that this couldn't be done without chopping lots of options.

As for my wishlist

OK, starting off with Sisters

The return of Ecclesiarchal units and characters like Frateris Militia and Zealots would be nice

Rather than a Chaplain-like character for the Sisters, maybe something more along the lines of an Emperor's Champion, a Sister who on the eve of battle receives a vision of a Saint, or even the Emperor himself, and as such is chosen by her Palantine/Canoness to bear ritual wargear as the Order's Champion.

War Cathedrals or something similar.

Next we have Grey Knights

Rules for M'Kachen under the Adversaries section. Under the 2nd edition Codex, it was made pretty clear that he was no ordinary Lord of Change (in fact IIRC he was actually a Daemon Prince).

Rhinos OR Drop Pods. Either would do. 'Nuff Said.

Finally the Inquisition/Agents of the Imperium

Remove the restriction for an Inquisitor to be present to field an Assassin (Inquisitor Vail says it well in the Cain novels, some Inquisitors prefer not to let their targets get away by making it blatantly obvious they are coming for them...)

Greater Naval resources to call in (Strafing Runs?)

A fully fleshed out set of options for Ordo Xenos Inquisitors.

A Deathwatch Strike Force (Kill-Teams with various wargear options defining whether they count as Troops/Fast Attack/Heavy Support/Elites)

Just a few basic thoughts ;)

Kettu
28-09-2008, 05:38
Well, ok. At Patriot's suggestion I will give a rough outline of a list.
This is based on the little info I know from cannon, Necromunda, Inquisitor, 2000 A.D comics (non-GW cannon) and an oh so fluffy (:rolleyes:) fanfic I read once called 'Where's my Inquisitor?' or 'M.I.V'. (Though not cannon or even close at points what with the Callidus on Arbite romance happening it gave an interesting idea on strategies)

I won't list points for now but I'm sure people can take a rough guess.

Wargear

I know, no wargear any more but some kit needs to be described.

Cyber-Mastiff - WS3 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld8 Sv4+ Has auspex and may reroll night-fighting sight distance, S4 on charge.

Shotgun and special rounds. Don't know the names but I know one is +1S (making it S4) one is a tracking round so you can reroll hits. Maybe an explosive round that forces a pinning test?

Shock-Maul - CC weapon, enemy fights at I1 or wielder has +1 S. Can't decide between them.

Suppression Shield - 4+ Invulnerable

Special Grenades - Standard Frag & Krak & Melta-bombs. The rest are thrown instead of shooting. In a unit one person throws the grenade instead of shooting but all count as having the grenades.

Tear-gas/knock-out gas - 6" range, take a toughness test, Auto-pinning for a turn, can not fire any weapons and can not fight in an assault. Assault 1 (Will not affect anything with a vehicle profile)

Tangle Grenades - 6" range, Targets can't move for a turn and reduces their S, I and A to 1 unless it is normally lower. Small blast marker. (Scatter as normally, Will not affect anything with a vehicle profile)

Flash-bangs - 6" range, affected unit uses Night fighting rules next turn and counts as being in difficult terrain.

HQ

Arbites Judge - A real Judge Dredd Styled character, Each judge leads a precincts and is responsible for all their actions. Probably a compulsory choice for the army. Lots of options, Bike (For true Dredd action) or Cyber Mastif (Or both even, dog on the back of the bike)

Arbite Chaplin - I heard about this guy once but I can't remember what their role is other then the obvious morale officer. Maybe give him some special rules (Fearless? ATSKNF?)

Sanctioned Psyker - Makes a degree of sense, Police work assisted my psychics. Or alternatively, they are a rather powerful Psykers with the Arbites acting as a bodyguard in high risk areas.

Priests - These guys are like mini-inquisitors considering how much they get around. They would probably be hanging around if there was anything that impacted the Ecclesiarchy in anyway. That or the Church is making sure that their 'property' isn't being misused. (The Ecclesiarchy runs the orphanage. hence why any male that isn't Assassin, Inquisitor, Commissar, Storm Trooper or Arbite material is a priest and why any girl who's the same becomes a Sister)

Elites

Veterans - Hardened individuals from many years of service whom refuse to climb the ranks. Greater range of options and may purchase special grenades.
Scout or infiltrate special rule. Repressor, Rhino and Chimera transport options available.

Snipers - For when Close Quarters just wont do. Also, for taking down high priority targets.

0-1 Mercenary group - Though unusual it isn't entirely unheard of. They don't subscribe to the same doctrines as the Arbites and so, if there was a difficult target or a situation that they can't attend to due to red-tape they why not just make it look like rival gangs/rogue hitman/Down-and-out-of-luck scum with nothing to lose.
Service is exchanged for wilful ignorance or clean record.

Troops

Arbites Squad - Frag and Krak grenades, Shot-guns and fancy ammo as standard kit. Can exchange Shot-gun and ammo for Stub pistol (laspistol), Shock Maul and Suppression shield. can purchase a Cyber-mastif controller so unit is accompanied by said same dog.
May take up to two special weapons (Flamers, Meltas, Plasma, Heavy Stubber, Grenade Launcher)
May purchase melta-bombs and one type of special grenade.
If half or more of the unit has Shields then everyone has an invulnerable save.

Repressor, Rhino and Chimera transport options available.

K-9 Unit - Up to 4 Arbites all armed with Shield, Maul and Pistol. Each may purchase up to 4 Mastiffs each. can not purchase more K-9 units then Arbites Squads.
Maybe a Power-weapon upgrade?

PDF Platoon - Effectively Conscripts in stats and arrangement. Throw in a Chaplin for some Tar pitting fun.

Fast Attack

Attack Bikes - Arbites on Bikes.

Arbite Sentinel units - Sentinel units with Arbite pilots.

Heavy Support

Arbite heavy weapon teams - Though really rare that Arbites will require heavy weapons there has been occasions when they have had to hold a location no matter what the cost.
Essentially an Arbite version of the IG equivalent.
May purchase Repressor, Rhino or Chimera transport.

Arbite Armoured Response Vehicle - Based on the adaptable Chimera design, these tanks exchange their troop and cargo space for increased ammo, larger weapon arrangement as well as advanced communication equipment to keep the command structure strong.
an extra heavy weapon may be mounted on the tank (Probably a rear hatch turret).
Comms-equipment, anyone within 12" may use the highest unmodified Ld value in range for all checks.
If more then one tank is present then it applies to anyone within 12" of any tank as all information is passed from one tank to another.

--

So there we go, Some things seem over-powering atm (Knock-out or tangle grenades with a unit of half shield, half shotgun Arbites for starters) But this is just a rough idea. There is, like the sisters, a lack of ranged options and most Anti-tank is located in the Heavy support section.

In a perfect world we would have Codex: Sisters of battle, Codex: Grey Knights, Codex: Death-watch and Codex: Agents of the Imperium (With Arbites army, Inquisitor Army and Assassins along with extensive ally rules so that any Imperium army can take a few units from the Agents codex within reason. And Assassins gain their independence from the Inquisition so anyone can take one.)

I won't have Internet for the week starting today and so any direct questions I can't answer for a while.

Kettu
28-09-2008, 05:42
I cannot let that one pass. They all made their first appearances in the fluff in Rogue Trader, and from recollection the rules for Inquisitors and Grey Knights appeared at the same time. Unless there was a mysterious edition before then, there is no way they could have been an edition earlier. In fact, the Inquisition (distinct from the Sisters and Grey Knights) makes more sense in a Rogue Trader than in fifth edition. A very small group around a very hitty Inquisitor fits the fluff more than an Inquisitor surrounded by a couple of hundred soldiers on a battle field. On the other hand, a hundred Sisters, or five Grey Knights (they are 500 points each, right ;) ), is perfectly fluffy.

They had the first official CODEX of the lot, I know they all came out at the same time but this was the first offical army to be recognised as such.

Agree on your other point though, Inquisitors just make no sense in a War game, they even further made this point with the Inquisition game and Dark Heresy RPG. There is simply little reason for the Inquisition to go and lead from the front unless another commander wasn't doing their job properly. But that's what the Commisar behind them is for.

The_Patriot
28-09-2008, 18:23
I cannot let that one pass. They all made their first appearances in the fluff in Rogue Trader, and from recollection the rules for Inquisitors and Grey Knights appeared at the same time. Unless there was a mysterious edition before then, there is no way they could have been an edition earlier. In fact, the Inquisition (distinct from the Sisters and Grey Knights) makes more sense in a Rogue Trader than in fifth edition. A very small group around a very hitty Inquisitor fits the fluff more than an Inquisitor surrounded by a couple of hundred soldiers on a battle field. On the other hand, a hundred Sisters, or five Grey Knights (they are 500 points each, right ;) ), is perfectly fluffy.

My point was that the Sisters of Battle and Grey Knights predated the Inquisition as an army by one edition. They came out in second edition and the Inquisitional armies came out in third edition. That was the point behind my statement. My statement had nothing to do with the fluff.

@Kettu: Awesome job on the list so I'll add them to the first post. Bummer on the internet situation and can't wait until you return. :)

Elric of Grans
28-09-2008, 21:29
The Grey Knights did not get a Codex in second edition either; their first and only (so far) was Codex: Daemonhunters. Unlike the Sisters, the Grey Knights have never been separate from the Inquisition. Even in Rogue Trader, rules for Grey Knights and Inquisitors came together.

SabrX
28-09-2008, 23:18
My thoughts on Sister related tactics was an overwhelming force of doom buses filled with religious fanatics in power armors. And with support from Exorcists, the battlefield is a cinematic display filled with glorious scenes of purge through fire with a symphony of music. Explosions everywhere, people dying, all out world war II style war but with background symphony.

The Repressor fits this tactic perfectly and should be implemented. Rhino should be standard cost. Seraphims should be 20 pts instead of costing the same as SM assault marine. Repentias should be faithful, and mixing hospitalier with sisters is fluffy. As for zealots, the are primarily Inquisition. Also, the priest is useless and should be altered in some way.

Elric of Grans
29-09-2008, 00:39
Assault Marines are now 18, which makes the current cost of Seraphim seem even more extreme. Personally, I think Seraphim and Assault Marines are about equal: Seraphim are a little better in shooting, but Assault Marines a little better in assault. On the other hand, the Hand Flamers are way too cheap and aught to be raised to 15 points. 10 points for a flamer (Assault Marines), but seven for a twin-linked flamer? Riiight!

Copella
29-09-2008, 01:57
Assault Marines are now 18, which makes the current cost of Seraphim seem even more extreme. Personally, I think Seraphim and Assault Marines are about equal: Seraphim are a little better in shooting, but Assault Marines a little better in assault. On the other hand, the Hand Flamers are way too cheap and aught to be raised to 15 points. 10 points for a flamer (Assault Marines), but seven for a twin-linked flamer? Riiight!

Its not twin-linked. The two hand-flamers count as having the same power as a standard Flamer. (S4 Ap5 etc.) They do count as two weapons for the purpose of close combat (so 3 attacks on the charge). So, yeah 7 is pretty much right where it should be.

Elric of Grans
29-09-2008, 08:48
You are right, I have been cheating my opponents --- the other weapons are twin-linked, but not the hand flamers. Still, the hand flamers are slightly better than a regular flamer (due to the extra attack in close combat), but a flamer costs Assault Marines 10 points. They will have to go up in the next codex to be fair.