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View Full Version : VC Drakkenhoff banner and combat res



knightime98
19-09-2008, 08:25
I am sure that this has been addressed but I need to know how it works.
If the undead player losses combat by say 4. Do the 4 models taken as losses get the benefit of the banner? I don't want to open a can of worms here but I am sure it has come up in multiple games. It seems to me that it is unfair for the VC player to get that benefit under those circumstances...
Regen is for a wound - When the VC player losses combat they lose models. It's the only way to beat them down. Just my thoughts but still looking for an answer.

The Red Scourge
19-09-2008, 08:59
They do. Regeneration works against crumbling. Its only armor and ward saves that doesn't work. EDIT: ward saves do seem to work, thank you for straightening me out :)

And yes. This is beyond ordinairy nastiness :P

Alathir
19-09-2008, 09:21
Indeed they do! And it's 100% torture.

My vampire counts friend was so disgusted with the power of that banner after a few games he never takes it anymore.

@The Red Scourge: I thought both ward saves and regeneration saves could be taken.

Valaraukar
19-09-2008, 09:39
Yup I'm pretty sure the FAQ said wards work as well again t crumbling which is more filth and inconsistency as they don't for Instability.

knightime98
19-09-2008, 09:44
Great now we have another points denial army. Just get 60+ Grave Guard models with that banner. Heal all the models that are casualties and you
are guaranteed atleast a draw every game. The worst part of the deal is that the BSB who carries it gets the 2+ AS plus the 4+ Regen. Good luck on getting rid of him. You could have a 1500 pt unit of Grave Guard with characters and such and 400-500 pts of minimum core. Wow...

The best points denial army that I have seen is the dwarves. They can have 70 Long Beards with 4 characters in there that make them Immune to Fear, Terror, Panic - Stubborn on a 10 with a reroll. Yeah, go ahead and flank, rear charge and so on... You won't crack those guys. With 4 characters hacking back at you - good luck on actually winning the combat.

Reinnon
19-09-2008, 10:42
Its a nice banner, and the invincible graveguard unit of death is a fairly common tactic with vampires.

Just don't get hit by vauls unmaking.

T10
19-09-2008, 12:03
And don't get your 200 points BSB killed. And don't get attacked by flaming attacks.

-T10

Cromenon
19-09-2008, 12:07
Just get 60+ Grave Guard models with that banner. Heal all the models that are casualties and you are guaranteed atleast a draw every game.

The worst part of the deal is that the BSB who carries it gets the 2+ AS plus the 4+ Regen. Good luck on getting rid of him.
Well, taking down the BSB (which would be of course a Wight King) is just as "easy" as a Killing Blow. No Armor Saves. No Regeneration. Just re-dead.

It's true that a big unit of GG with DrakeBanner is a great points sink, and it is quite difficult to win this list, but that is a double-edged sword: he will find most difficult to win with just one and slow uber-powerful unit on the table.

theunwantedbeing
19-09-2008, 12:09
And don't get your 200 points BSB killed. And don't get attacked by flaming attacks.

-T10

Or attacked by anything with killing blow.
The drakenhof banner is an absurd banner...although less so when you have access to the lore of metal, then that 2+ save wight king holding the banner isnt a problem at all (especially if you have 4 mages).

They really need to change it so that VC's Undead stuff doesnt get crumble against anything.
Daemons dont get wards against their crumble.(no doubt they figured that things like plaguebearer's would be too tricky to kill off if they got both wards and regen vs crumbling)
TK's dont get wards vs theirs either.

Gazak Blacktoof
19-09-2008, 12:12
We should be able to tell if the design studio agrees with that sentiemnt when they get around to re-doing tomb kings.

EvC
19-09-2008, 12:27
The saving against crumbling was a good idea, especially for characters, to give them a chance if they get caught out by themselves. The Drakenhof Banner was a good idea. Put the two good ideas together with zero consideration of how they interact, and you have a momentously BAD idea.

Dark_Mage99
19-09-2008, 15:02
Daemons have instability - which is no way near as bad as crumbling, especially with their stubborn banner. Tomb Kings will probably get saves in their new book.

Every army has a banner that is slightly on the nice side. It just so happens that the Vampire one helps them stick around longer. I would be equally happy with the Banner of Nagarythe (even if it didn't have Unbreakable - and even more so if my army wasn't), the Battle Banner, the Standard of Chaos Glory (especially with Instability over crumbling), the Standard of Sundering and even Mork's Spirit Totem.

PARTYCHICORITA
19-09-2008, 15:09
The worst part of the deal is that the BSB who carries it gets the 2+ AS plus the 4+ Regen.

Why 2+? Assuming it's the wight king he has heavy armor+shield and hand weapon. Wouln't that be 3+? Unless he's mounted of course.

Personally i think the regenerating GG unit is nasty but, as someone else already said, it's also expensive and slow

EvC
19-09-2008, 15:22
Unless he's mounted of course. Of course he would be, if his survival is that important!

Condottiere
19-09-2008, 17:29
And then there's Flames of the Phoenix.

Oberon
19-09-2008, 17:32
Flames do not have the strenght needed, while the spirit of the forge does... Grave guard might not feel the pain too bad, but black/blood knights certainly do. 2d6 hits that remove models on 2+? Nice.

EvC
19-09-2008, 19:01
It's even fairly good on Grave Guard, killing them on a 4+ (if they have shields). But Rule of Burning Iron cast threefold to kill the Wight King in one turn might do it- shame it only wounds on a 3+...

GranFarfar
19-09-2008, 19:19
Yup I'm pretty sure the FAQ said wards work as well again t crumbling which is more filth and inconsistency as they don't for Instability.

How is that inconsistent? Crumble and instability are two different rules. One having nothing to do with the other. And seeing how this is crumbles only real benefit over instability, I see no problem.

Oberon
19-09-2008, 19:45
@EVC: I was mainly thinking about unit size with GG and SotF. As I play 20 GG with FC or 8 BK+characters, the 2d6 missile is "a bit" more terrifying for the latter unit. GG also rise back up again faster.

EvC
19-09-2008, 22:07
Oh yeah, I know what you mean. One SotF on a unit of Knights will wipe them out on average, unless they're stupidly big :)

pokatchu
20-09-2008, 04:39
well cast wall of fire and look at them do noyhing or lose like 15-20 GG
lol or pit of shade!

Lordsaradain
20-09-2008, 08:45
Drakenhof banner is an absurd banner?

It costs 125 points + the cost for the character. It's ******* expensive. And you can just kill the carrier and you wont have to worry about dealing with the whole unit. How can you say its absurd?

EvC
20-09-2008, 11:41
Because the notion that because something is expensive, it must be priced fairly is wholly fallacious. Mind you, it's nothing compared to a Nurgle Herald's FREE Drakenhof Banner...

knightime98
22-09-2008, 19:24
Here's my observation on the whole thing. It is just that an "observation". It appears to me that GW has gone out of their way to improve each army in succession. So much so that they need to keep coming out with tougher and more brazen units, characters, items, warmachines etc... Really look at the VC banners then look at the empire banners.. You will see a very different view on the whole idea of banners. Let's take an army that was released between the two - High Elves for instance, they have the inbetween banner - the one that allows you to roll a d6 for combat res... As time goes on, and armies get better the previous armies start sucking. The army that is last to updated is usually the worst for it. Specifically, the uh hmmm.. 5th edtion - Yes, 5th edition still Chaos Dwarves with the last update as the "ravening hordes". Recently, GW junked the Demons and Daemons for the Chaos list - So, now they are choking.
So, you ask where is this all going. To what we all now is true. GW isn't as concerned about play balance of armies as they are with selling the newest army available. In order to do so they have to make it better than the previous release thus the domino effect.
That's all. One last bit then I'll sign off - Look at the High Elves with their Always strike first bit... Now the Dark Elves have been released to counter it with Assassins the ASF with I10.. They can have up to 7 attacks with KB, hatred, poision, and ASF. The sad bit about assassins are that they are simply a unit upgrade not even a character slot.
So this goes to show that GW will sacrifice game play for game sales... That is all!

SolarHammer
22-09-2008, 19:32
Drakenhof banner is an absurd banner?

It costs 125 points + the cost for the character. It's ******* expensive. And you can just kill the carrier and you wont have to worry about dealing with the whole unit. How can you say its absurd?

Well, to be fair, the most common character is a T5, W3, 1+ save Wight King with Killing Blow and Regeneration (from the banner) that can be healed in friendly magic phases if not killed outright in 1 turn.

In my opinion, the Wight King is the hardest BSB in the game by a fair margin, even compared to the Nurgle Palanquin Herald.

The banner is a very good deal. As it is most commonly placed with Tomb Guard, to directly make its points back, it only has to save 10 wounds. In a unit of 20 Tomb Guard, it will do so every game.

That crude analysis does not factor in the likelihood of the Banner indirectly making its points back by perpetually bogging down enemies that are facing the protected unit, or stalling the enemy advance when it would have otherwise easily succeeded in breaking through. The ease at which it lets the Vampire player dictate the game is worth the 125 points even before it saves a single model.


Because the notion that because something is expensive, it must be priced fairly is wholly fallacious. Mind you, it's nothing compared to a Nurgle Herald's FREE Drakenhof Banner...
And again, to be fair, Regeneration on Daemons does not really compare to Regeneration on Undead that can be summoned back to replace those that do die.

EvC
23-09-2008, 10:11
Yeah, but you're paying the price for raising back models with the cost of the spellcasters, the (only very slightly) overpriced troops and the use of the magic dice. It's the fact the regen works with crumbling with VC troops, when Daemons and Tomb Kings get no such benefit, that puts it into another league.

T10
23-09-2008, 10:48
Well, to be fair, the most common character is a T5, W3, 1+ save Wight King with Killing Blow and Regeneration (from the banner) that can be healed in friendly magic phases if not killed outright in 1 turn.


The Wight King has a 2+ save, not 1+. And he romps around with a unit of Grave Guard, not Tomb Guard.

I feel I've contributed to this discussion.

-T10

SolarHammer
23-09-2008, 16:05
Yes of course. My mistake.

We all agree he is dead'ard though?

Spirit
24-09-2008, 23:33
Ive decided not to use the banner, games are simply too easy with it, 3 characters in a GG unit + vanhells (guaranteed with a 35 point item or a 35 point vamp power) and you cannot ignore this anvil unit, not only does it hold over 1500 points at times, but it can reach your lines and kill your units without you having a say in the matter.

Even without the 3 characters in a unit, all it takes is a vamp lord with the skull staff in a unit of 10 skeletons behind your 20 grave guard and your unit is invincible for 6 turns.

I love grave guard and i love wight lords, but sod the banner, i'll take an extra 2/3 of a varghulf over it any day!